Get Schooled

By jim d

August 14, 2006 09:10 AM | Link to this

Actually this should be up to the teacher. It is their classroom

It may however be a bit confusing for students since some teachers expect to be addressed in this manner while others run a more relaxed classroom. I think it all boils down to teaching style and what a teacher is comfortable with.

So to answer the question. Yes, if that is the expectation of the teacher.

By Call'em as I See'em

August 14, 2006 09:16 AM | Link to this

Yes, sir - No, sir!

Not a chance if he’s teaching high School!

By jim d

August 14, 2006 09:19 AM | Link to this

oops, my bad.

Make that a “Yes, ma’am”

By MMM

August 14, 2006 09:45 AM | Link to this

I agree—the teacher should decide and set the expectation.

I don’t buy the concern that it will confuse the kids if some teachers expect it and some don’t. The kids are there to learn how to cope with challenges and be flexible—this is minor compared with the interpersonal skills needed to sucessfully adapt to all the different people that a first line customer service person must handle to do a good job! We wear swimsuits when we go swimming and carry umbrellas when it rains—a child can figure that out.

By Janine

August 14, 2006 10:20 AM | Link to this

Just one teacher story [absolutely true ] from me today….A new teacher,who of course shall remain nameless, at a local high school known for lack of respect for teachers, approached colleagues at lunch to say that he had finally made as break through in getting a little respect from his students. The colleagues naturally asked how this had been accomplished. The new teacher solemnly responded, ” I don’t know what I did to change things, but this morning, one of the students said, “F—- you, …..SIR!!!!!!

By sobegape

August 14, 2006 10:21 AM | Link to this

I do not require my son to address me as ma’am. But if any teacher expresses a desire to be addressed as sir or ma’am, then that is what I expect my son to do.

By Janine

August 14, 2006 10:24 AM | Link to this

Just one teacher story [absolutely true ] from me today….A new teacher,who of course shall remain nameless, at a local high school known for lack of respect for teachers, approached colleagues at lunch to say that he had finally made as break through in getting a little respect from his students. The colleagues naturally asked how this had been accomplished. The new teacher solemnly responded, ” I don’t know what I did to change things, but this morning, one of the students said, “F—- you, …..SIR!!!!!!

By SET

August 14, 2006 10:26 AM | Link to this

Everybody has seen the movie “To Sir With Love”, right?

By Janine

August 14, 2006 10:27 AM | Link to this

Sorry about that double post, Patti…I am still having trouble with posting on your blog….

By Billybobbooyah

August 14, 2006 10:29 AM | Link to this

My near perfect SAT student will never speak like a southerner it would definitely hurt later in life. And if my kid was required to say “yes maam, and no sir” I would get them switched out of the class. It just tells me the teacher is on an ego trip and trouble ahead.

By holdingajc"accountable"

August 14, 2006 10:30 AM | Link to this

Re “F—- you,…SIR” That says it all.” Reminds me of the quote from a teacher “I’ve been called b-tch so many times, now I just answer to it”.

How’s the follow up going on the (lack of) discipline story in last weeks paper?

By SNY

August 14, 2006 10:42 AM | Link to this

I’m sorry but even with my child in a private school, I am a Northerner all the way, we do not say ma’am or sir. If they don’t like it too bad. I don’t expect my child to call me ma’am so I definately will not have her calling another woman ma’am.

I have to agree with billybob on this one.

By Stinky Sullivan

August 14, 2006 10:43 AM | Link to this

Kids need DISCIPLINE. I am so tired of these Yankee kids comnig down here and being al disrespectful and talking back. QUIT CLOGGIN UP OUR SCHOOLS with smarta$$ yankees, and STAY UP NORTH!

SS

By Stinky Sullivan

August 14, 2006 10:44 AM | Link to this

Kids need DISCIPLINE. I am so tired of these Yankee kids comnig down here and being al disrespectful and talking back. QUIT CLOGGIN UP OUR SCHOOLS with smarta$$ yankees, and STAY UP NORTH!

SS

By 30 Year Teacher

August 14, 2006 10:48 AM | Link to this

Billybobbooyah,

Just wondering… Your post evidences a great lack of respect for southerners so I have to wonder. Why are you here?

Oh and just for the record. Saying Yes, Sir and No, Sir is not particularly southern. Have you ever served in the military?

By SNY

August 14, 2006 10:58 AM | Link to this

30,

I am ex-military and that may be why I don’t agree with calling everyone ma’am and sir. It was nothing but an ego trip in the Army. You can be respectful without saying ma’am and sir. I am a very respectful person to my elders and those in authority above me at work. I manage this without saying ma’am or sir to anyone. It can be done. If they want the respect, then they need to realize that it can be accomplished with more than those two specific words.

By SNY

August 14, 2006 11:00 AM | Link to this

30,

I am ex-military and that may be why I don’t agree with calling everyone ma’am and sir. It was nothing but an ego trip in the Army. You can be respectful without saying ma’am and sir. I am a very respectful person to my elders and those in authority above me at work. I manage this without saying ma’am or sir to anyone. It can be done. If they want the respect, then they need to realize that it can be accomplished with more than those two specific words.

By sobegape

August 14, 2006 11:08 AM | Link to this

I do not require my son to address me as ma’am. But if any teacher expresses a desire to be addressed as sir or ma’am, then that is what I expect my son to do.

By redneckyank

August 14, 2006 11:10 AM | Link to this

Yasir, dats wats wes a nedin roun har— spect. Dem ol yankees needn ta gits bak whars days frum sos wes kin gets bak ta larnin dem yungins sum spect n ar skols by whupin dem beihines

Buttn den, rekon wes hasta gits rida dem yank techrs to

By SNY

August 14, 2006 11:26 AM | Link to this

Off subject real quick - sorry.

Teachers,

Guess what, there has already been a fight at Norcross High. My goddaughter called me crying because she couldn’t get out of the way fast enough and she got yelled at for watching the fight. She said that there was no arguing the guys just walked up to each other and started fighting. How are kids suppose to get away from something like that in a hurry. Most people are running towards the fight so the kids in the immediate area have no place to go. They get stuck in the middle. She was so scared, she had to go to the bathroom and call me. I told her to calm down, turn her phone off and I’d call the school and check on her later. She was so scared she was crying. It must have been pretty bad.

TO ALL HIGH SCHOOL TEACHERS: YOU ALL MUST BE SAINTS. I COULD NOT DO THIS EVERYDAY FOR 180 A YEAR. THERE ISN’T ENOUGH MONEY IN THE WORLD!!

By Belle

August 14, 2006 11:30 AM | Link to this

I consider it an address of respect and not an ego trip. Thinking that sounds like insecurity to me, sorry no disrespect meant to you. I say yes/no sir and ma’am all the time, even to my 10 year old neice and she certainly is not on an ego trip. My child will do the same.

I honestly do not see it as ego at all.

By jim d

August 14, 2006 11:42 AM | Link to this

Like I said earlier, I don’t really care one way or the other. Saying yes sir or no sir isn’t really a sign of respect though when it is demanded and not freely given. It’s just another name.

By SNY

August 14, 2006 11:46 AM | Link to this

Belle,

Join the military and come back and talk to me in 3 to 4 years. Then you’ll understand! I’m not insecure about anything. You have your ideas about respect and I have mine. Mine just don’t include saying ma’am or sir. As I stated before, there are other ways to address people without being disrespectful. For instance when a teacher asks a question the student could answer “Yes, Mr. White or No, Mr. White.” What is wrong with that? It is respectful and the teacher receives the answers they are looking for. Does anyone understand my point or do you guys just think that I’m being stubborn again?

By jim d

August 14, 2006 11:49 AM | Link to this

Also consider where the emphasis is placed in the response.

Responding YES sir or yes SIR doesn’t really carry the same tone of respect. Kids know this and will gladly play the game until a teacher tires of it.

By SNY

August 14, 2006 11:49 AM | Link to this

Jim D.,

Good point!!

By jim d

August 14, 2006 11:56 AM | Link to this

SNY,

Thanks; I really think tone is more important than the words. But I do understand that others don’t necessarily agree.

By Leia

August 14, 2006 12:04 PM | Link to this

I don’t require “Yes, Ma’am”. I am from the North, and we weren’t required to say that. I do require a “Yes, Mrs. —” or some form of respectful acknowledgement. I do not accept, “Yeah” or “What”!

By jim d

August 14, 2006 12:04 PM | Link to this

I really hate to burst Mr. Pickett’s bubble. But I really know a lot of kids at Mill Creek and do believe he’s setting himself up for a rough year.

By Belle

August 14, 2006 12:25 PM | Link to this

I was raised military and served my time as well, thank you for asking. I still see it as respect and not ego.

I do agree an alternative of yes/no, Mr/Ms whatever is fine. What I don’t like to hear are the responses of “yeah” and “nah”. The teachers have to establish some authority in the classroom or the kids will just do their own thing. I’m not talking about going overboard with the whole respect thing (sir, yes sir..etc), but something as simple as the way one is addressed to me is not an issue. I guess it goes back to how I was raised. My parents did not demand that I address them sir/ma’am but I did it anyway..most of the time.

It is just my opinion, you are welcome to yours either way.

By SNY

August 14, 2006 12:28 PM | Link to this

Leia,

Hey we agree on something. It’s nice to be able to say that to you! :)

My mother would - to this day - knock me out if she heard me answer someone with a “What” or a “Yeah” and I’m 32 years old!!

By BB

August 14, 2006 12:34 PM | Link to this

It is a school-wide expectation that all students say “Yes, ma’am” or No, ma’am” We have been told by our principal to correct the student if they don’t. I also answer to him with Yes, sir”, or “No, sir” in front of my students. It is simply showing respect, which there is not enough of these days!

By Belle

August 14, 2006 12:37 PM | Link to this

SNY, I can agree with you on that too…my mom would blast me as well and I’m 36!

I think we are on the same page just getting there a couple different ways.

By Leia

August 14, 2006 12:38 PM | Link to this

SNY - That’s funny! I knew we couldn’t disagree on EVERYTHING!

I’m older than you, and my parents would knock me out too if I ever said “What?” to them!

By lawrencevillemom

August 14, 2006 01:47 PM | Link to this

It is really funny to hear the different attitudes about the yes sir/no sir issue. We (my husband and I) were military for a long time and even before that I was raised in an old fashioned home where you addressed ALL elders as “sir or ma’am”. I have raised my kids to do the same, as well as saying please, thank you and excuse me - and have been chastised on numerous occasions as being too strict…BUT I know that now as teenagers they still address people young and old with respect. The world can use more respect. My youngest daughter had to do lots of crunches last season in soccer for calling her coach “sir” rather than “coach” - he’s English and doesn’t like it.

By SNY

August 14, 2006 02:01 PM | Link to this

You guys will never believe this, I actually lost a fiance over this particular issue. I was engaged to a military man who is from Augusta, GA. I met him when I was in college in NC. After we dated for about 6 months, I went to meet his mother. He didn’t tell me that she expected to be addressed as ma’am so I addressed her with the same amount of respect that I give all of my elders. I thought that I was very respectful, so did she except for the fact that I did not say ma’am or sir to her and her husband (his stepfather). She kept her opinion of me to herself until we got engaged. Then all heck broke loose. She told her son that she would not have her grandchildren raised by a woman who does not call their elders ma’am or sir. So we broke up. Oh well, their loss not mine and he is now married to a woman that doesn’t want kids and his mother has no grandchilren at all. His wife also smokes, drinks and is a total “B” to his mother. I guess I look better and better at every family gathering. HA HA!!

By SNY

August 14, 2006 02:03 PM | Link to this

BTW, she did call his mother ma’am the first time they met. I guess she got what she wanted.

By Hmm

August 14, 2006 02:57 PM | Link to this

I’d assume the teacher is on some sort of powertrip. I was raised in the South, my son was not. He had one teacher, in GA Pre-K, that demanded it. I was appalled, so I removed him from the class. To me Yes M’am = Yes B**ch, in that same polite southern tone as “bless your heart”.

Now that he’s older, if a teacher demanded it, I wouldn’t remove him from the class. We would have a giggle or two over that teacher’s ego, though. We don’t understand how those words are considered respectful. It’s not about discipline either. My kid’s discplined, kind, and smart. I don’t need these Southern hangups added to his character.

By SET

August 14, 2006 03:07 PM | Link to this

SNY: That’s a good story. What you are describing is almost like the old “Telephone Test”. You were being screened by the old lady and you didn’t make the cut. Nothing wrong with that. You were probably saved from a bad match.

As far as how the wife got through the screens and turned out to be an (apparently) unsuitable match is another story.

We all walk into these social screens. There are very good reasons to have them. In this Brave New World, actuarial instruments are coming into use as screens for employment and contracting such as renting a car or getting a credit card. They serve the same purpose - to prevent a bad match. Imprudent people walk into them without having studied their existance and use.

Knowledge is power. We would do well to make sure our High School kids are well aware of these issues. Cultural Anthropology is a great class to offer.

This is relevant to the thread at hand because the screens are very subtle sometimes. Such as first introductions. You don’t get a second chance to make a first impression.

By Ma'am

August 14, 2006 03:14 PM | Link to this

I work in Human Resources and I get yes and no ma’am constantly. I look at it as being respectful.

That goes a long way when I deciding who I want to place into one of my open jobs. I don’t want to hire disrespectful people. Just keep that in mind when you are deciding if sir and ma’am equates to B**ch because you may be the overlooked for the job you want.

By Hmm

August 14, 2006 03:34 PM | Link to this

Honestly, I wouldn’t want to work for someone that valued those specific words as an employee skill. The idea of it makes my stomach turn. Employees should be useful and valued for far more than their ability to stroke HR’s ego. There’s no legitimate reason to believe that someone’s disrespectful simply because they don’t use common Southern tongue.

By holdingAJC"accountable"

August 14, 2006 03:44 PM | Link to this

D-i-s-c-i-p-l-i-n-e. It’s really that simple. The teacher sets the rules…if they are broken, the teacher enforces the consequence. The child MUST know that every bit of the school apparatus, up to including the school board will support the teacher’s consequence.

The child behaves.

It’s REALLY that simple.

By jim d

August 14, 2006 04:02 PM | Link to this

To just sum it up.

My daddy’s name was sir. I’m simply Mr. D

By BlindHomer

August 14, 2006 04:08 PM | Link to this

I went to four colleges, and the following is a list of college professors I have known that demanded, wanted or preferred to be called sir or ma’am. …. Grow up kids.

By Leia

August 14, 2006 04:13 PM | Link to this

holdingAJC”accountable” - I must disagree with you. There is no school board in Georgia that would defend a teacher who assigns consequences because a student didn’t say “ma’am” or “sir”!

Suppose I got a wild hair and wanted my class to stand upon my entrance to the room? If those were my “rules” (because I was ego-tripping like Mr. Pickett) and a student didn’t rise, do you honestly think I would be justified to reprimand this student?

Students are asked to abide by “reasonable requests” made of them. IMO, forcing a public school student to say “ma’am” or “sir” is not reasonable! I am one of the most respected teachers at my school, and I do not require them to say that. Like I said earlier - I demand a respectful acknowledgement, but, the “ma’am” thing is not important to me at all.

By Hmm

August 14, 2006 04:24 PM | Link to this

“The teacher sets the rules” Actually, it seems to me that teachers are not God. Everybody has somebody to answer to, for everything they do, whether it be inane rules or not.

This was more than a few years ago, in another state. My kid had a teacher who said that only kids who licked the bottom of his shoe would get candy. Nobody did it at first, but then another teacher licked the first teacher’s shoe to show it’s Ok. Kids followed along, to get the candy of course.

Teachers don’t unilaterally set the rules, but it seems more than a few like to think they do.

By Atlanta Teacher AW

August 14, 2006 04:30 PM | Link to this

Growing up in Georgia, some teacher expected me to address them with a “ma’am” or “sir.” My parents, who are from New Jersey, were personally offended that a teacher would require me to say that to them as a form of respect. I do think its a Northern/Southern thing. Before I taught in Atlanta, I taught in the Northeast…where teachers did not require students to answer them with “ma’am” or “sir.”

It’s definitely possible to be respectful without the “ma’am” or “sir” clause attached to the sentence. Tone of voice, eye contact, and proper word choice all contribute as ways to portray yourself as respectful without saying “ma’am.”

By SET

August 14, 2006 04:56 PM | Link to this

Hmmm and Atlanta Teacher:

Your reaction to the issue is similar to SNY and the prospective mother-in-law. What you experienced is a social screen to find candidates who “fit in” to what was being looked for. You quickly bounce off the screen. It’s very efficient. No harsh words were spoken.

I’m in California. I know employers who notice all prospects that “Smokers need not apply”. It’s not that these candidates might light up around the oxygen tanks or something. The employer is screening out that type of person. Blocking smokers especially in the age range 18-30 is an excellent way of screening out the lower class (and their mores & pathology) from your workplace.

We don’t use Ma’am here. Maybe it’s a southern thing. But we do have a lot of social screens in effect to screen out undesirables in workplaces, and as clients - not to mention social acquaintences. What’s interesting is that the people who walk into them (largely younger persons) don’t even realize they are being screened. Older people usually know better - or at least know the common screen that are in effect. Formal speech is one screen.

These things used to be taught at home and at school. They still are in professional and upper class homes and private schools.

Is there no one to work with the public school children? See the movie “To Sir With Love* and notice the explanation Sidney Potier’s character gives while he’s imposing the formal forms of address on the school children. I think it went something like “…Soon you will be in competition with others like yourselves for jobs and spouses…” He went on to explain to them that the party is over and they will now be getting ready to leave school and survive which includes use of formal speech.

Good movie.

By patrick

August 14, 2006 05:27 PM | Link to this

The issue of respect is bandied about in almost every post, but the one aspect that is missing in most is the idea that respect is expressed by the student when he/she does what the teacher asks without question. This goes for the parents as well (even moreso in some cases). This may sound like a dangerous statement to some, but I suspect that the hesitation results from the incorrect assumption that a significant portion of teachers are not professional in some way. If the teacher asks this one, small thing from his/her students, it should be respected. In the worst case scenario, the teacher may have some sort of selfish agenda, but it shouldn’t matter. The teacher obviously values this, just as others value other things. Respect the position, not the person. Shame on any parent who provides an excuse for his/her kids not to do as the teacher asks.

By catlady

August 14, 2006 05:28 PM | Link to this

I am okay with a respectful, clearly annunciated “yes”, “no”, “yes, please”, or “no, thank you.” I model that repeatedly until everyone in my room uses that. I wouldn’t turn down a “m’am” however, but it is icing on the cake. “Yeah” and “Nah” don’t cut it with me.

By catlady

August 14, 2006 05:37 PM | Link to this

“Huh?” “Whut?” and “So?” also don’t do it for me. Some of my children address me by my title, honorary term, and last name, ie, Ms. Dr. Smith.

By SET

August 14, 2006 05:56 PM | Link to this

Some of the readers seem to think this is a “respect” issue. It’s not. Use of formal address is a socialization issue. Like a litter of Beagles learning how to function in a pack. They get nipped at until they learn how to fit in line.

Liberals think that it’s OK to teach teenagers that they are special or important or unique or such rubbish. They don’t like to teach them how to get in line and stay in line. This kind of puppy training is especially dangerous to lower class youth (like what populates the urban public high schools) as they are not being socialized to move into society and start climbing the ladder.

So if you are going to a public high school in GA maybe you should know to address superior adult females as “Ma’am”. And if you forget maybe it’s good for you to (figurativly) get your ear nipped.

It’s nothing personal, it’s housebreaking. If you care about the future of these kids you’ll train them.

Brave New World.

By Kage

August 14, 2006 05:59 PM | Link to this

I’m in the ‘it’s a southern thing’ camp. I don’t think it should be required. I got in a lot of trouble for refusing to address a teacher as ma’am when I was in elementary school. My mom called her mother ‘mam’ and didn’t think it appropriate for me to call a teacher ‘ma’am’, so she said I didn’t have to. I didn’t, and oooh boy, I was in trouble. I stood my ground, though.

I require my students to address me respectfully and that’s enough.

By Jeff

August 14, 2006 06:42 PM | Link to this

I’m a teacher that expects it - though I do not scream at kids if I don’t get it.

I’m of the type that with any stranger not in my age range I automatically refer to them as “Ms. _” or “Mr. __” and “ma’am” and “sir”. You can actually see this anytime I refer to Mr. Wooten (and I’m even doing it here!!) over in the Thinking Right blog. Virtually everyone else uses his first name, but to me he is “Mr. Wooten”. At the collegiate level, everyone is automatically assumed to be “Dr. ” until I am informed otherwise. On the job - and ESPECIALLY at interviews - EVERYONE gets the “sir” and “ma’am”. Heck, I even use “sir” and “ma’am” with the wait staff at restaurants and cashiers at stores!!

BTW: I’m also - once again - looking at going in, though as an Officer this time.

Something peculiar about my school though: Every school I’ve been at so far, when the kids were away teachers/ staff used each others’ first names. At my current school, EVERYONE is “Mr._” and “Ms. _” AT ALL TIMES!!

By Taxpayer

August 15, 2006 08:21 AM | Link to this

My dad BEAT “sir” and “ma’am” into me, and at 40+, I still find myself saying it to certain folks. My husband and I decided to raise our child to be courteous and to speak clearly, but no, we didn’t push the “sir” and “ma’am” habit and don’t expect her teachers to push it either.

SET, my child is not a puppy; she’s a person. We didn’t “housebreak” her; we taught her to be respectful.

By Taxpayer

August 15, 2006 08:28 AM | Link to this

My dad BEAT “ma’am” and “sir” into me, and as an adult, I still catch myself using it with certain people. My husband and I decided to teach our child to be courteous and speak clearly, and I don’t expect any teacher to push the “sir/ma’am” habit.

SET, my child is not a pupppy; she’s a person. We did not “housebreak” her; we taught her to be respect herself and be respectful of others.

By Taxpayer

August 15, 2006 08:30 AM | Link to this

My dad BEAT “ma’am” and “sir” into me, and as an adult, I still catch myself using it with certain people. My husband and I decided to teach our child to be courteous and speak clearly, and I don’t expect any teacher to push the “sir/ma’am” habit.

SET, my child is not a pupppy; she’s a person. We did not “housebreak” her; we taught her to be respect herself and be respectful of others.

By jim d

August 15, 2006 08:38 AM | Link to this

For those that this is really important to, here’s a suggestion that I find works for me.

Remember respect is a two way street and something that must often be earned.

I work with a very diverse group of young men from varying socio-economic groups and I try to address them as sir, in so doing I’m setting a standard. One that they often, not always, will mimic.

What I’ve discovered in my rather long lifetime is that when one displays a certain demeanor or respect to others, regardless of their circumstance or age, it is generally returned. And if you continue this practice regardless if it’s returned or not, those around them will address you in the same fashion they hear you addressing others.

Just my personal opinon here but, earned respect is much more fulfilling than demanding something that really isn’t there.

By Taxpayer

August 15, 2006 08:39 AM | Link to this

Sorry for triple post! Computer obviously wishes to be addressed as “sir” or “ma’am” in order to function properly.

By SET

August 15, 2006 10:00 AM | Link to this

Jim D:

No.. respect doesn’t have to be earned. Children dealing with superior adults are in no position to qualify their “respect” depending on the child’s appraisal of whether the superior adult has “earned” it. It’s that kind of thinking that gets kids into trouble when they are dealing with Police Officers, Meter Maids, Judges, Employers and Managers and Teachers.

I enjoy reading some of these comments because it illuminates where these clueless kids are coming from. They have teachers and parents that think of their world in terms of what it should be (in their minds) instead of how it is.

I could be wrong, but it seems to me based on experience and Anthropology classes that formal speech and formal address is more about fitting into society and society’s rules than one-to-one “respect” issues.

You can see formal speech at work when you watch a CA Superior Court Judge arraign a 17 year old for capital murder charges - which I watched last week. Am I expected to believe the Judge had “respect” personally for this stupid kid when he addressed him formally?

Go right ahead and teach your children to not use formal speech unless they “feel” like it. It’s just one more thing that marks the child as someone to not be taken seriously.

It’s part of the difference between public school kids and others. Poor things…

It’s why (some) employers here set aside job applicants from public schools and hire the catholic school kids. Public schools have become a ticket to downward mobility and it’s wrong to do this to these kids no matter who their parents are.

Brave New World.

By MMM

August 15, 2006 10:29 AM | Link to this

SET For once, I agree with most of what you have just said. The only part that I disagree with is your belief that all public schools and public school kids turn out the way you discribe. We have a variety of schools in this district and in Georgia where the traditional formal behavior is still commanded and obtained. After all, this post did start with a teacher who came into the profession expecting the kind of behavior you promote.

I’m not saying that many of the bloggers haven’t given up—-but you clearly live in a place where there is not a positive communitee supporting education. Don’t assume all public schools are like the ones you have expierence with. Although California often leads the trends that come to other places later, this isn’t always the case either.

By Leia

August 15, 2006 11:20 AM | Link to this

SET - My children are very respectful, and do not say “sir” or “ma’am”! In fact, one of the first comments made by adults about my daughters is how polite and mannerable they are. I don’t think that I’m setting them up for a life of minimum wage earning careers by not forcing them to use these words! And, by the way - they are public school educated children!

By blacknwhitecookie

August 15, 2006 11:31 AM | Link to this

I’m a product of a Catholic school upbringing in DC. The rules and reverence just made me rebel. It’s one reason that I’m no longer a Catholic but that’s a whole other topic. I wouldn’t wish that kind of indoctrination on any child although today most CS teachers are lay people and not the penguins I had. I’ve been a single mom for over 11 years , two of my grown kids have gone on to top 10 research universities (by US News and Report standards) and two more are following that path. They have all gone to public schools mostly in the North, respected their teachers (even those not worthy) and will never pick up any of these southern “hang ups” (I like that term). My Junior actually has a calendar in her room that marks down the days until she can move NY or MA to College. Considering 1 in 4 residents of the county I live in isn’t from the South and that number is probably higher now I hope the old southern hang ups will dilute with time.

By Hmm

August 15, 2006 11:31 AM | Link to this

SET-“Some of the readers seem to think this is a “respect” issue. It’s not. Use of formal address is a socialization issue. ” The majority of folks on this blog requesting Sir and Ma’am cite Respect as the reason. And, I must agree, use of that formal addrses is not a socialization issue. Shaking an outstretched hand is socialization. Responding to “Good Morning, How are you?” is socialization. Those are common civilities we afford everyone. Thank you and You’re Welcome are socialization. Addressing Elton John as Sir Elton John is respect for that given title. Rising for the judges is respect for that position (and system). When your old teacher, Mrs. Knight, gets her doctorate in education, calling her Dr. Knight is a sign of respect for her accomplishment and earned title. Calling her Mrs. Knight is socialization that’s common with everyone. A teacher that demands his students call him Sir is simply trying to force a more respectful title when it’s probaby unwarranted.

SET-“instead of how it is.” I’m not sure you’re in the best position to tell us how the world is. Your mind sees an incredibly judgemental society that is just nowhere near as harsh as you make it out to be. A judge calling a 17-year-old Sir is simply condescending and trite.

You know, what’s funny. No issues in my life with my lack of Sir or Ma’am usage, I’m respectful to everyone. If they have bizarre beliefs they should be called Sir, it’s really not my issue. If they believe I should wash their feet in respect, it’s really not my issue either. And, in fact, the only time I can remember referring to someone as Sir was my boss when he wanted to discuss an escalation. “Hmm, let’s go talk about this customer.” “Yes, Sir.” He laughed, of course, because it was received as “Yes, Sir. May I have another?”

Another thought. I still believe this is a Southern thing, but I also wonder if it’s a black thing. Some of the most opinionated folks I’ve met on this topic were from large black families. Many of them had a grandparent raising them or living with them for most of their formative years. So, I wonder if this is an older Southern and/or black thing that’s only passed from Old South generations? In the same vein, these folks usually refer to their friends as Mrs. Smith in front of their own children. And, in fact, the children don’t ask if they’re going to go shopping with Jane today. They ask are we going shopping with Mrs. Smith. Even though Mrs. Jane Smith is their mom’s best friend.

By Hmm

August 15, 2006 11:35 AM | Link to this

Leia: Same here. I get lots of comments about his manners and behavior. And, I’m not worried a bit he’ll end up as an undesirable, unemployable adult in the SET’s “Brave New World”.

By Leia

August 15, 2006 12:06 PM | Link to this

Hmm - amen!

SET would probably not even give my daughters the time of day anyway, because they are African-American, and we all know how he thinks we are inherently stupid by nature!

By Cammi317

August 15, 2006 12:30 PM | Link to this

Yes. I expect my daughter to address ALL adults with Maam and Sir, unless otherwise directed by that adult. As an adult, I generally still address anyone more than 15 years my elder with Maam or Sir.

By Hmm

August 15, 2006 12:33 PM | Link to this

Leia, Heh. That’s just because they’re subjected to that bouncy social filter.

“What you experienced is a social screen to find candidates who “fit in” to what was being looked for. You quickly bounce off the screen. It’s very efficient. No harsh words were spoken.”

Seriously, if you try to mentally picture some of these things, it’s actually a little funny. People flying across the room as they literally bounce off a giant mesh screen. Boing. You smoke? Boing. You have kids? Boing. Oh, nice tattoo. Boing.

By Cammi

August 15, 2006 12:36 PM | Link to this

I forgot to mention I am originally from Chicago, not Georgia, and I was raised by my parents to address adults with Ma’am and Sir.

By CMaire

August 15, 2006 12:38 PM | Link to this

Fellow bloggers, I am going to go WAY out on a limb here and ask a question. I am the ignorant one, but I wish to diminish my ignorance and so I ask this question: To those of you who are African-American and against the teacher requiring the formal address of sir/ma’am, does this feel as though you, as an African-American are then put in the position of being “boy” or “girl” which I totally understand is offensive?

To rephrase my question: If the teacher insists on you calling her “Ma’am” do you interpret that to mean that she thinks of you as “boy (or girl)”?

By SET

August 15, 2006 12:48 PM | Link to this

Hmm: I’m glad you responded. I think your opinions and mine are clearly made. We disagree - and that’s fine. As far as my mind seeing a harsh or judgmental society - you’ve got that right. That is the currency I deal in. I work with people in trouble. I work with people who have been failed by the public school system.

And nowadays when people are in legal trouble, they are really in legal trouble.

And Leia: You presume to know what I think of you and your daughter? Do you think you are the center of the universe so that I have an opinion of you all the way across the country? I don’t know you and I never will. My concerns are what is happening to the people I do know. If you think I’m annoyed when I write - it’s because I don’t like what is happening to certain people and I want things to improve. If I thought it was hopeless I’d concentrate on my mutual funds or real estate or something.

I do see my own extended family deviding between haves and have-nots. Some members have become wealthy and educated beyond what the grandparents could have imagined. Others are barely surviving. Their children will barely know each other. The amazing thing is that every member of my generation went to public high schools in California.

I’m not expressing my opinion to make you happy. If you have a counterpoint, express it.

By SET

August 15, 2006 12:57 PM | Link to this

CMaire: You might be on to something. But would it make a difference if the school was all black, the teachers were black, and the administration was black?

Liberals still believe the world revolves around them and by extension, their children. I think the opposition to formal address is rooted in self centeredness and the “self-esteem” nonsence they espouse.

Hmmm: The California Court’s policy of using formal address is not a caprice of the individual judge - I believe they teach this as a policy at the Judge’s College (Yes, they have to go to school once they are elected or appointed). The fact that you would consider such treatment of people being arraigned in public on criminal charges to be “simply condescending and trite” shows your own misunderstanding of the function of formal address. And I suppose you teach these notions to your students…

By Leia

August 15, 2006 01:03 PM | Link to this

SET - I presume to think I know what you’d think of my daughter based on the fact that on every third post you make, you reference “The Bell Curve” or make some mention of the fact that you believe that minorities are inherently prone to having a lower IQ, exhibit sexual depravity, etc!

Opinions are like sound - they travel! The fact that you’re in CA has absolutely nothing to do with my ability to clearly understand your posts! I’m not deaf - I don’t need to lip-read!

Do I think I’m the center of the universe? Only in my house!

By Taxpayer

August 15, 2006 01:04 PM | Link to this

CMaire, I’m not African-American, but I am of mixed heritage, if that matters at all. I don’t require “sir” and “ma’am” in my home because I think they are designed to put the user in a subservient position. For me, the issue of using or not using these words is really not about respect but about one person’s power over another. We chose instead to teach our child to say “yes, please” and “no, thank you” to us and EVERYONE else, kids included. We expected children in our home to use those terms when speaking to us as well. “Yeah” and “nah” and such are not tolerated.

My child was also taught to call adults by their last names and Mr., Mrs., or Ms., or that wonderful Southern variation, “Miss” combined with the lady’s first name, as in “Miss Cathy,” but only when told to do so by the person.

You can be polite without being subservient, and any teacher who expects subservience out of me or my child will not get it.

By SET

August 15, 2006 01:06 PM | Link to this

sp “dividing” I thought I caught that before sending…

On the judge’s language to the people being arraigned, the males (in adult court) are addressed as “Sir” the females as “Ma’am”. When they are spoken of the address is always “Mr. Smith”. or “Ms. Smith”. That is the style that all the Judges use that I see.

If it is a repeat defendant and the court is trying to really be nice to them they may slip and address the defendant as “John”. That is a good sign (for the defendant) and you don’t see it a lot.

Victims are addressed in the same fashion. The attorney’s are addressed as “Mr. Smith” or “Ms. Smith” no Sir or Ma’am to them.

The formal address does tend to remind the defendants that they might be in trouble this time. They’d often prefer to be addressed by their first names.

By Taxpayer

August 15, 2006 01:17 PM | Link to this

It always amuses me to hear law enforcement officers using such formal terms when referring to suspects or perpetrators as “gentlemen” or “ladies.” For example, Officer Smith says, “I was forced to spray Mace into the gentleman’s face because he was attacking me” or “The lady cursed at me and then tried to run over me.” Some lady. Some gentleman.

By SET

August 15, 2006 01:19 PM | Link to this

Leia: You are the center of the universe in your own home.

You continue to make assumptions as to the Bell Curve. Your emotional reaction to the subject is that the topic is an individual attack on you or your kid.

Thanks to NCLB the US government is assembling the largest database of racial scores ever made. Gee, wonder why? Don’t blame people for discussing what is in front of their eyes. A group norm is interesting and people debate where the numbers are coming from. Is it from the breastfeeding rates for the current generation and the micronutrients involved? Whatever.

The existance of certain gaps is beyond question. Why and what to do about it is something Educators need to discuss. If you think that discussion is a personal attack - that’s your opinion. I don’t believe that.

Your kid may be a genius, or may not be. But depending on what is known about the race of your child one can lay odds that she is not going to get a Nobel Prize in Physics because certain ethnics tend to be underrepresented in Nobel Prizes in Physics. I don’t consider an insult to your child’s intelligence - I don’t even know your child. She may want to do Doctoral work in Physics. It happens.

If you think intelligence is nurture and not nature - that’s your opinion. Everybody is entitled to their own. If you want to hate or feel threatened by those who say the evidence is that it’s more nature than nurture - and (maybe) related to biochemistry too, you must feel threatened a lot. I wish you well. Check out the NCLB national numbers and tell us that it’s the lack of money being thrown around that’s causing the gap.

By SET

August 15, 2006 01:30 PM | Link to this

Hmm: Your kids are probably decent polite people. This thread on formal address is more than that. You can be decent and polite and not have a clue about (complex)interaction with the outside world. Those that do have the advantage. Public school kids need every advantage they can get.

Maybe we are making too much of this issue - I’m sticking to my position mainly because no one else is defending the point of view that started the thread. If a teacher is trying to do this in her class I’m supporting the teacher. The parents have no business giving their children contradicting instructions out of caprice.

And I love a debate anyway.

By abc

August 15, 2006 01:46 PM | Link to this

SET - do you have children of your own?

By Hmm

August 15, 2006 02:21 PM | Link to this

SET: Where do you draw the lines in what you support from the teacher? I learned a long time ago not to uniformly trust teachers. My mother learned the same, due to a teacher locking me in a closet. Your comments read like you will simply support them, no matter what. Just because someone’s a teacher doesn’t mean they’re immune to the stresses that make any human crack.

This year, kiddo’s got a teacher that wants the paper headings a certain way. That’s a perfectly reasonable request. It involves the quality and presentation of his schoolwork! Another teacher he had years ago had a very military way about him. Some students would salute him and he encouraged it. That’s not a reasonable request. That same teacher freaked on a student that wouldn’t stand for the pledge. He attempted to have the student suspended for disobedience. It was not reasonable and the student was not suspended. An elderly teacher last year (6th grade, very diverse school) made numerous comments all year long about certain races, cultures, socioeconomic classes, etc. She’s way past the age of putting a positive spin on such issues. It really ticked off quite a few parents and students, but she’s a great teacher. Just can’t keep her stereotyping comments to herself.

I guess my concern is that in all your daily work, you see some of the worst, so you expect the worst. If I sat in juvenile court all day, or the local highshool, I’d probably have a depressing view of the world too. And, I might even say ‘Give those teachers whatever they want, man! They deserve it!’ I might even be glad that I won’t live long enough for these kids to really screw-up my world. I mean, you can get real depressing and cynical about it. There has to be a middle ground between Supporting (the teachers) and Allowing Abuse (from the teachers).

By SET

August 15, 2006 04:18 PM | Link to this

Hmm: My father (who had a Masters’ in Chemistry) and several of his physician collegues had my H.S. Chemistry teacher fired (not retained)through the school board (He was not yet tenured) because they considered him dangerously incompetent. They had real problems with their kids being shortchanged in Chemistry since they planned for them to become Physicians also - and Chemistry was very important. I am familiar with teachers being called to account.

I’ve had plenty of experience with all the professions in serious legal trouble. I’m not a blind devotee of any profession. But until the point of termination you have to support professional staff on things within their discretion. Classroom deportment is exactly the sort of thing that is the province of the Classroom Teacher. I would dissaprove of teachers putting themselves on a first name basis with the students but if the Teacher wanted to try it and was otherwise producing results, it’s his/her classroom. So I’d “support” that also.

As for the allowing abuse.. I am well aware that what some students and parents think is abuse I might think is good teaching. There is a line that must not be crossed. This isn’t the thread to discuss where that line is.

As for the stereotyping comments… case by case. Many people have their view of the world that they want validated by others. Dream on. It amuses me to see grown people cry when the facts hurts their feelings. English class is not a place for evangelism. History class can be a lot of fun.

I do remember my Criminal Law professor calling on students in class and commenting to them and to the class that their answer were (on occasion) stupid and thoughtless. Some students got emotional and some students maintained their composure and tried harder. I would hire the latter. We were not in class for the fun of it and I remember that professor vividly but not some of the nicer ones. I also remember what she taught. Funny how that worked out.

By MA

August 15, 2006 05:19 PM | Link to this

Interestingly, there was a “Dear Abby” letter about this subject today. One reader wrote that it was manners not regionalism. The French respond “Oui, Madame” or Non, Madame” just like Southerners.

By Jeff

August 15, 2006 05:27 PM | Link to this

Hmmm:

I am one of those teachers with a “very military way about them”. That being said: if a kid salutes me, I chew them out. As of yet, I have never had any kind of title in the military, and as such a salute of any kind towards me is COMPELTELY inappropriate.

HOWEVER: I do require my kids to stand for the Pledge. I will (and have) chew them out like nothing else if they do not. My reasoning is simple: Too many men and women have fought and DIED so that that flag can still fly. Whatever you think of this great country, you WILL stand and acknowledge their sacrifice.

By Hmm

August 15, 2006 05:41 PM | Link to this

Jeff: I’m sure it was a religious issue with that girl. Surely, as those Americans fought for our freedom, you recognize freedom of religion?

By SET

August 15, 2006 05:50 PM | Link to this

Jeff: How do you handle the Pledge with students who are illegal aliens from Mexico, or who may have been born here but consider their true citizenship and alligence to Mexico, or who are Middle Eastern and perhaps - quite forthrightly hate the USA and are here only for business reasons???

Do you make them stand, do you require them to recite the Pledge?

Do the schools give any guidance or policy to the teachers in these cases?

By Jeff

August 15, 2006 05:51 PM | Link to this

Hmm:

Freedom of religion only comes in to play when you’re talking about actually stating the Pledge itself. All I require is that you stand in acknowledgment of the Flag. Whether or not you choose to say the Pledge is up to each individual.

As I said: Too many have fought and DIED for that flag. You WILL stand in acknowledgment of that sacrifice, no matter where your politics or beliefs may lie.

By Lisa B.

August 15, 2006 06:00 PM | Link to this

Jeff: Unfortunately, students have sued and won the right to remain seated during the Pledge of Allegience. Thankfully, in ten years of teaching, none of my students have refused to stand. I am a human being, and know, that with my family’s military background, I would be offended if a student didn’t stand during the Pledge.

By Jeff

August 15, 2006 06:03 PM | Link to this

SET:

As I’ve said: Saying the Pledge is up to the individual. MY allegiance is perfectly clear.

ALL I require is that you stand. Anything else is up to you. (But I GUARANTEE you if you do something that disrespects me or my country, you AIN’T gonna like the consequences.)

By OldSchool

August 15, 2006 06:16 PM | Link to this

I’m with Jeff on the Pledge and standing in respect. First thing I tell my first block class is that I want them to stand quietly when the National Anthem is played and the Pledge recited. I ask them to do this out of respect for my dad who was a tailgunner in a B-25 Mitchell bomber during WWII and my many friends who did not return from Vietnam or who returned forever changed. I ask them to stand out of respect for THEIR friends and family members who choose to serve our country in the Armed Forces or as a uniformed public servant. I do not require that they recite the pledge, only that they refrain from talking or moving about. Every morning I place my right hand over my heart during the Anthem and as I recite the Pledge. I look only at the flag in the front of my lab, but my thoughts are with my late father.

On Fridays, the Pledge is recited first and then our school’s Alma Mater is played over the intercom. Last Friday, my whole class (15 high school boys and 3 high school girls) sang along.

I don’t even have to remind them to be quiet during our moment of silence.

I love these kids.

By Hmm

August 15, 2006 06:17 PM | Link to this

Boy, we’ve really strayed haven’t we. I think it’s official at this point.

Well Jeff, I know she didn’t have to stand or say the pledge in the end. Some might consider standing before the flag as paying allegiance, even if the words aren’t spoken. Don’t the Jehovah’s Witness folks (and maybe that’s what she was) believe that the pledge is directly against their bible. It worships government or country? There’s plenty of national holidays and history lessons to learn which honor those that fought and DIED. I’m not saying I agree with the JWs, but it’s curious. Your view that so and so WILL do it is very Idealistic. What are you going to do if they refuse? Vaporize them? They didn’t do it, but they won’t exist anymore. Even if they somehow end up in jail, it’s really difficult (or impossible) to make a living creature do some things. Pesky free will.

By Hmm

August 15, 2006 06:26 PM | Link to this

A couple have commented that they change the meaning of the pledge to reflect more of a Memorial or Veteran’s Day stance. I’m not convinced that any determined JW (as an example, poor JWs heh), would go for that either.

By Jeff

August 15, 2006 06:31 PM | Link to this

Hmm:

Like I said: The consequences of disrespect…. suffice it to say that I can make your life a living HADES in my classroom and go about it in such a way that it is COMPLETELY professional and BEYOND question….

As for the JWs: I actually have one. As I’ve explained to both this student and her mother, standing in acknowledgment in no way indicates that you are saying an oath. It simply shows that you are respecting those that have fought for the very freedoms you hold so dear.

By Hmm

August 15, 2006 07:11 PM | Link to this

Jeff: Interesting. I think even standing would be honoring the flag, the symbol. You’ve attempted to turn the pledge into something it’s not to pacify certain students? I thought it was illegal to force students with valid religion reasons to say, stand, or otherwise participate in the pledge. It’s been awhile, but aren’t there multiple court cases on this very topic that students/parents have won? And, your response to the difficulty is to torture the kids? Amusing teaching style.

By Leia

August 15, 2006 07:22 PM | Link to this

Jeff - We may see you on the news soon if you force the wrong student to stand for the pledge! Watch yourself - you work in a public school. Don’t forget that.

By Lisa B.

August 15, 2006 07:33 PM | Link to this

Going back to the original post, students are better off if they show respect for teachers. If this means saying “Yes Sir, and Yes Ma’ame,” as is the case in South Georgia, I think parents should encourage their children to fit into the expected social graces of the environment. I honestly do not see the harm in teaching children to follow norms that impact adults’ opinions of them.

By Lee

August 15, 2006 08:13 PM | Link to this

Interesting comments, to say the least…

• I’ve been on this Earth for almost 50 years, and I have never, ever, ever heard anyone equate being called “Ma’am” with “B|tch”

• I was taught to say “Ma’am” and “Sir” and “Please” and “Thank You”. You can call it respect, or politeness, or civility, or a “Southern Thang.” I do it. I taught my kids to do it. As my Grandma used to say, good breeding (or lack thereof) always shines through.

• Speaking of a Southern thing, growing up, I was also told about “rude Yankees.” Judging from some of the comments on this blog, that stereotype has not been dispelled…

• I am really shocked that anyone would view a teacher that requires his/her students to address them as Ma’am or Sir to be on an ego trip.

• It makes me proud to meet someone in public and they speak to one of my children who responds with a Yes Sir, or No Ma’am.

• My youngest daughter’s private school requires students to address all adults with Ma’am and Sir.

• I think it is a sad state of affairs in this country that we are even having a conversation about a student’s unwillingness to stand and recite the Pledge of Allegiance. Maybe if schools actually taught History instead of politically correct mush, the students might understand the significance of our country.

Speaking of manners, does it irk anyone else to tell someone “Thank You” and they respond with “No Problem?” Or, instead of saying “I’m Sorry”, they say “My Bad.” Drives me up the wall.

By Taxpayer

August 15, 2006 09:00 PM | Link to this

All you people defending the use of “ma’am” and “sir” have obviously forgotten your history lessons. Nevertheless, I will not shuffle my feet, cast my eyes to the ground, and address or respond to anyone in a way that hearkens back to a time of servitude and discrimination. I will not have my child believe that such a thing is right. Have you all forgotten that in this country, we are considered to be “created equal” to each other? Basic courtesy — the use of appropriate titles, please and thank you, and yes, “you’re welcome” instead of “no problem” — is crucial to functioning in our society. But I will not grovel and “yassuh” anyone. If you choose to and want your kids to, go ahead. Just don’t try to force my kid to grovel, too.

By Laf

August 15, 2006 09:26 PM | Link to this

before you get your school system in legal trouble. A lot of lawyers would love to take a case representing a JW parent challenging your interpretation of their first admendment rights and their religious rights. Do you think your school system would be willing to go too court to prove that one of their new teachers is in the right. Or would it be cheaper to just let the new teacher go out the front door. This might be a good question for you to ask the lawyer that represents your school system.

By Leia

August 16, 2006 08:08 AM | Link to this

Lee - I would question your “good breeding” if you were taught that Northeners (or Yankees as you choose to call us) are rude.

I’d love for you to meet my daughters and see how polite they are, although they hardly ever say ‘sir’ or ‘ma’am’.

I won’t escalate the whole North/South stereotype stupidity, but, suffice it to say that not all Northeners are rude, and not all Southeners are polite!

By Karen Armsby

August 16, 2006 08:13 AM | Link to this

Taxpayer, I don’t know what history lessons you are referring to, as I grew up saying “yes, sir” and “yes, ma’am” to my parents and any adults, with the exception of the nuns and priests at my Catholic school who I answered, “yes, sister,” and “yes, father.” These polite responses have long been used in civilized countries in a multitude of languages. They are standard training in the military service branches, and widley used by those in business. Certainly, there are areas of the country or cultures of people who have abandoned civility and these polite expressions. But when they laugh at our manners, then the shame is on them for their rudeness. These are expressions of respect, not grovel.

By sue

August 16, 2006 08:23 AM | Link to this

Lee,

I’m with you on, “my bad,” but “no problem” doesn’t bother me.

By SET

August 16, 2006 10:48 AM | Link to this

Taxpayer:

Your position on formal address is wrong. By teaching it to your children - among all the other bad attitudes that go with it - you are marking them as people who don’t fit into society. That’s fine I suppose because they wouldn’t fit in and everybody can get that understood.

I just hope they kids have insight about the signals they would be giving off. It’s one thing as an adult to deliberately turn off your actions. It’s another thing to not know what is expected of you and not understand the price you could be paying for not conforming to society’s expectation. (Badly brought up?)

The formal address issue is just one thing. Your decisions on what your family will and won’t do would logically include a host of other things. Think of it as living in a town where certain families train their kids with different right-of-way driving rules. Because they feel like it. And never teach the standard rules so their kids don’t know what is expected of them and what to expect. Good Luck.

It used to be that American Society - at least in rural areas - could tolerate people with abberrant or different notions of such things. Things are getting a little more crowded now. People (conciously or not) are far more vigilant in avoiding troublesome people and the “screens” I referred to earlier are more numerous.

If you don’t want to train your kids to manuver in this Brave New World - Great. The schools don’t take orders from you and if your kids violate school rules they will be punished. Eventually your children may decide you don’t know what you’re doing. Maybe not.

Do what you want - pay the price.

Brave New World.

By catlady

August 16, 2006 11:06 AM | Link to this

SET-I appreciate your comments about the “filters” or “screens”. I had never thought of things in quite that way, but it is a useful construct. Now, I am going to watch for examples. Yes, Sir!

By RA

August 16, 2006 11:10 AM | Link to this

My family has moved around the U.S. and the world quite a lot over the years. I have always been complimented on how polite and respectful my children are. Before living in the south, they never said “Ma’am” and “Sir.” It was not the custom and would have even been considered obsequious in some places. Though I never allowed them to say “Yeah” or even worse, “What?”

As soon as we moved to the south we noted that the custom here is to say “Ma’am and Sir.” So we talked about it and I told my kids that outside our home, they now needed to address adults that way or people would think them rude. At home, I do not require it.

My kids understood completely and adapted right away. They want adults to like them. Who would ever want to be thought rude?

SET is correct. Every place has different standards for civilized, polite society. If you want your children to be accepted there, they have to adapt. Otherwise, doors will close.

By Taxpayer

August 16, 2006 11:15 AM | Link to this

I have no problem with formal address. I use it myself and my child always addresses adults as Mr., Mrs., or Ms. She says please and thank you. She says yes instead of yeah and uh-huh. She speaks clearly and appropriately instead of grunting, using slang, or blurting out profanity. She is unfailingly polite and has earned numerous citizenship and academic awards. She is well liked in her school, community, and church, and welcome in anyone’s home. Imagine! She accomplished all this without ever saying ma’am or sir to anyone.

It appears that you only see what you wish to see and understand only what fits with your view of things. That’s fine, and that is your right. I just hope that neither I nor anyone in my family has to interact with someone as angry and opinionated as you.

And by the way, if the usage of ma’am and sir are so wonderful, why is it that, for the most part, those who use these addresses are usually in a servile or weaker position than the person being addressed? When the waiter says, “What would you like, sir?” do you “politely” respond, “I’ll have the steak, SIR.”

No thanks. We won’t measure up to your standards, thank goodness.

By Taxpayer

August 16, 2006 11:24 AM | Link to this

SET, my child does use formal address, always addressing or responding to adults with Mr., Mrs., or Ms., saying please and thank you, and saying yes or no instead of grunting or using slang (yeah, nah). She is unfailingly polite, has earned numerous academic and citizenship awards, and is active in church and the community as a volunteer. She is welcome in anyone’s home. Just because we did not teach her to use ma’am and sir does not mean that she is socially impaired. As a matter of fact, I cannot recall in all the years she has been alive that anyone has ever expected her to use ma’am or sir. Obviously, her polite and courteous way of speaking to others is sufficient.

Please consider this: if the use of ma’am and sir are so socially important, why is most often expected to be used by those in a weaker or servile position? For example, when you are at a restaurant and the waiter asks, “What will you have, sir?” do you respond with, “I’ll have a steak, SIR.”

No thanks, SET. We don’t want your ways. My child seems to be doing just fine without them.

By SNY

August 16, 2006 11:40 AM | Link to this

My daughter attends private school right here and her school doesn’t even expect or require them to say sir or ma’am. I think that people only appreciate what they believe to be as important. I would hate to know that my child would be considered rude if someone asked her a question and she answered with a polite “Yes, thank you very much” or a “No thank you, maybe nextime.” Those are two very polite examples without the words ma’am or sir in them. I guess I sort of feel like Taxpayer to a certain extent. My ancestors didn’t have a choice, my children and I do.

By Leia

August 16, 2006 11:48 AM | Link to this

SNY - what’s going on? This is two times in a row we’re agreeing with one another!!

By SNY

August 16, 2006 12:29 PM | Link to this

Leia,

I think that the chip that I had on my shoulder about teachers when I first started blogging is gone. You guys have helped me work out my feelings by being honest and judgemental (but that’s okay). You gave me the truth when I needed it and you help me see things from a different perspective. Especially you - Leia.

By Reader

August 16, 2006 12:34 PM | Link to this

RA, you’ve taught your children a very valuable lesson.

By Leia

August 16, 2006 12:51 PM | Link to this

SNY - that is awesome!

I really hope your daughter has a better year this year.

By SET

August 16, 2006 01:05 PM | Link to this

Taxpayer: We must have crossed signals. The discussion was complying with the teacher’s rules in the classroom, not dealing with strangers in the street.

This whole blog is about teachers setting the rules in the classroom and the students obeying. A teacher is within her authority in requiring formal address in class if she wishes. And over time teachers have done so in part to prepare the students for conditions when it is used.

Do you seriously think we are talking about your kids having to use formal address all over the place?

By SNY

August 16, 2006 01:39 PM | Link to this

Leia,

Thanks, so far so good with school. It has only been two days but my daughter only has 7 students in her class. I can’t imagine her teacher having a hard time controlling them. Plus, I work 5 minutes from school and I have informed her teacher that if she needs me to call me. She assured me that everyone would be okay. Checked in with her this morning and all is great. She has already fallen in love with my child. I couldn’t be more happy!!

7 kids, isn’t that great?!!

By DCtoNYCtoCAtoATL

August 16, 2006 01:56 PM | Link to this

I have to agree with Taxpayer and the others that said this is a southern thing. We are from DC but have lived all over. I really don’t care what the culture is here because I’m finding those that want to hang onto the old southern civilities are a dying breed. Most of the people that use yes maam and yes sir are bible thumpers and not the group my well educated kids would be hanging with anyway. And let’s just say I find it disturbing that a mom is raising her children to be a people pleaser. What else are they going to do to be liked? SET everything is not what you say it is and teacher’s that expect the ridiculous will be treated accordingly.

By Hmm

August 16, 2006 02:37 PM | Link to this

SET: “Do you seriously think we are talking about your kids having to use formal address all over the place?” Yes, the discussion was carried over (by you and all of us) into how children and adults behave in the real world.

By SET

August 16, 2006 02:37 PM | Link to this

DCro..: It may very well be a Southern Thing to make greater use of formal address, but it is not a Southern Thing that children have to obey teachers’ classroom rules. If you think a small thing like this exceeds the teacher’s authority you will probably learn differently when you undergo whatever sanctions follow defiance. That is if the school even sanctions defiance anymore.

Some people try to pick and choose what rules and laws to follow. I see them in legal trouble all the time. Pathologists see them on autopsy tables. It’s a free country and to a large degree people do what they want and face the consequences later. Maybe there won’t be any consequences. Maybe you won’t be able to tell.

It has been an interesting thread. To some degree these positions we take are political - or philosophical. I’m not pretending there are absolute rights and wrongs. Do whatever you can get away with if it’s profitable.

Brave New World.

By Hmm

August 16, 2006 02:44 PM | Link to this

SNY: “I think that people only appreciate what they believe to be as important.” Very true. Isn’t there a saying - you can’t please everyone? There is more than one alternative to Ma’am/Sir. Any non-persnickety, tolerant, and non-schoolmarm human knows it.

By Taxpayer

August 16, 2006 02:46 PM | Link to this

If my child doesn’t use ma’am and sir with other adults in authority elsewhere or even her own parents, why should she be expected to use it in a classroom? And what is the point of using these words when their use goes above and beyond basic courtesy?

I expect my child to follow classroom rules, and I expect teachers to set reasonable rules. REQUIRING the use of sir or ma’am goes beyond a reasonable expectation. Why don’t I just tell my child to address the teacher as “Master” or “Your Excellency”? I would personally enjoy being addressed as “Queen,” but then my husband would have to be “King” and my daughter “Princess” and, well, … that would just be cumbersome and silly and unnecessary, wouldn’t it? Kind of like expecting to be exalted to the position of “sir” or “madame” by a bunch of children …

By SET

August 16, 2006 02:49 PM | Link to this

Hmmm: My discussions of mandatory formal address was intended to address the question Patti posed about a classroom setting.

I’m not advocating that children use formal address in non-formal settings. To the contrary, they need to know not to.

By Hmm

August 16, 2006 02:59 PM | Link to this

Lee: “Speaking of a Southern thing, growing up, I was also told about “rude Yankees.” Judging from some of the comments on this blog, that stereotype has not been dispelled” I was raised right here in GA. Southern Baptist, Mountain Revival, Bible-Thumper Southern all the way. I learned to ignore all those Yankee comments. They may be in more of a hurry, and they may speak their mind more plainly, but that alone doesn’t equal rude. Meanwhile, the Southerners just love to gossip, build up facades of politeness, and apologize for everything under the sun. At least, with a Yankee, you don’t generally have to wonder what are they really thinking – they just told you. And, yes, in my view, the Ma’am/Sir does maintain a slightly subservient (Christian doormat) and apologetic tone.

By Taxpayer

August 16, 2006 03:18 PM | Link to this

Hmm, I think you described perfectly the most objectionable aspects of the whole ma’am/sir usage: subservience and an apologetic tone. I have a similar Georgia/Southern Baptist/Southern background to yours. I have heard far too many ADULTS of one socio-economic group using sir and ma’am when addressing ADULTS of another socio-economic group to ever be comfortable speaking this way or teaching my child to.

By Laf

August 16, 2006 05:43 PM | Link to this

Its time for everybody to leave certain parts of the Old South behind. Just be nice, polite, and respectful.

By Jeff

August 16, 2006 05:50 PM | Link to this

DC:

That you categorize all those that want the “sir” and “ma’am” said in such a way speaks FAR more about yourself than anyone you name.

(BTW: Same goes for the VAST MAJORITY of black ppl these days - ahem MCKINNEY ahem -claiming racism….)

By jim d

August 17, 2006 08:33 AM | Link to this

To reiterate, I really don’t care if teachers demand to be called sir/ma’am. I do have a bit of an issue with everyone still pushing this as respect.

I don’t mean to go off on a Mr. Liberty type rant. However, let’s be honest about this. Teachers have been brain washed into believing this is respect when in fact it’s nothing more than another form of character education.

And this my friends is not the educational establishments place. Nor is it within their capabilities. There is absolutely no documented evidence that character education actually improves character.

Character is something built outside of school and is largely dependent upon ones environment. Demanding to be called sir/ma’am for six hours a day, 180 days a year will not instill the values that character education has deemed appropriate in someone that spends 24 hours a day for 185 days a year and an additional 18 hours a day for the same 180 that you guys are beating your heads against the wall to instill, in an environment that is totally contradictory to the values you are attempting to teach.

By Karen Armsby

August 17, 2006 10:20 AM | Link to this

jim d, I must respectfully disagree with you about your respect/character rant. Children go to school to learn academic subjects in a social environment. When my kids were in K-12, I told them that school was their job, similar to my job. They had bosses, their teachers, and they had set working hours and assignments to complete, just like I did at my job. They also had rules to follow and had to learn the standards for correct social interaction with their teacher bosses and co-workers (fellow students), just like I did at work. Civil discourse, manners, respect, and observing a teacher’s classroom rules are all necessary elements for our children to learn if we want them to ultimately be successful in their adult job settings. Parents and teachers are partners in preparing students for life after K-12. If a teacher uses sir and ma’am to instill order, discipline and respect in his classroom, then that is his perogative. Therefore, I am perplexed that you think that these civilities should not be taught, modeled, and enforced at school.

By Karen Armsby

August 17, 2006 10:39 AM | Link to this

Apology and correction, it’s prerogative, not perogative.

By jim d

August 17, 2006 11:21 AM | Link to this

Karen,

Exactly dear, YOU taught the at home. My issue is with the state taking these responsibilities on. And they have done so oh so subtly thorgh our educational system.

By DC

August 17, 2006 11:36 AM | Link to this

Jeff the comments you have made on numerous ed blogs are more TELLING of yourself. I wouldn’t want a child of mine anywhere around you - just have a feeling we’ll be reading about you in the news someday and not in a good way. Big liability to have someone with your ideology teaching in a public school.

By Taxpayer

August 17, 2006 01:21 PM | Link to this

Karen, I don’t know what kind of future you envision for your children, but I definitely don’t want my child to have a job in which she is REQUIRED to address anyone as sir or ma’am.

By SET

August 17, 2006 01:42 PM | Link to this

Taxpayer: Then I guess your kid won’t be a judge, or a mayor. Or a lot of other things involving formal interaction. Your kid also will have some problems if drafted (and that is coming - the draft).

Your child may be quite able to find ways to avoid formal address. It’s a free country. Maybe you can bind her feet also.

You seem to confuse formal address with actually giving a damn about the person addressed. That is common among those who don’t know better. Your child won’t know better. She or he won’t know a lot of things if she gets into the habit of defying her/his teachers because of some silly attitude of the parents.

But, you may know better. I’m certainly not correct about everything and I’m the first to admit it. My opinions are my own and things are different where you live.

Brave New World.

By Gwinnett Teacher

August 17, 2006 01:55 PM | Link to this

SET - How dare you say that Taxpayer’s child won’t amount to much because he/she won’t say “ma’am” or “sir”! Apparently, you managed to get by the social screens even though you have a pompous, holier-than-thou attitude and are borderline racist!

I’ve noticed that anytime you’re asked whether or not you have children - you never answer. That leads me to believe that you don’t. Perhaps if you had children of your own, your attitude about this topic wouldn’t be so off kilter and judgemental.

You, and your family are not the only ones to be successful and achieve superficial status! My family is also successful. We have teachers, doctors, college professors, pharmacists, and authors. The list goes on, but, you get the point. None of my generation were taught/forced to say “ma’am” or “sir”! We were, however, taught to be respectful of our elders and of authority figures and to speak proper English!

You really owe Taxpayer an apology for being so ugly.

By Taxpayer

August 17, 2006 02:56 PM | Link to this

We were, however, taught to be respectful of our elders and of authority figures and to speak proper English!

Thank you, Gwinnett Teacher! I, too, was taught these things and have taught them to my child. She seems to be getting along just fine in the world, despite SET’s dire predictions.

SET, judges and mayors are not REQUIRED to use sir and ma’am, and I don’t envision my daughter being in danger of being drafted. People often use sir and ma’am to avoid learning someone’s last name or because they can’t recall the last name. These terms are also used out of FEAR, as they have been for many years. Slaves had to say sir and ma’am to their masters, which is enough to taint the use of these words in my eyes.

By SNY

August 17, 2006 03:36 PM | Link to this

Taxpayer,

Stop explaining yourself. I used to be just like you at the beginning of the summer. Just ask Gwinnett Teacher. I no longer feel the need to defend or explain myself. You feel what you feel and that is okay. I promise that our children will be alright in the world as long as they follow our directions and be nice and considerate of ALL people.

By jim d

August 17, 2006 04:11 PM | Link to this

Karen,

An interesting read.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0553370529/102-1937720-8710536?v=glance&n=283155

By Taxpayer

August 17, 2006 04:14 PM | Link to this

Wise words, SNY. Point taken.

By Karen Armsby

August 17, 2006 04:52 PM | Link to this

Taxpayer, The world as you perceive it is not the same for everyone else. Despite our diverse opinions in this blog, we are not that different in what we want for our children; that they grow up confident and equipped to make their way in the adult world. Parents and teachers together educate our kids academically, physically, spiritually, socially, etc. Your opinion that “yes,sir” and “yes, ma’am” are signs of subservience, is just that, your opinion. My parents grew up saying yes sir and ma’am and taught me to do the same out of respect for others, all others. Your child may not join the military, but may hold a job where she may be required to use yes, sir and yes, ma’am. If you teach her that this speech is demeaning then she will build resentment, not understanding. I taught my kids the goal should be to understand the good in others, not to look for insults and take offense too quickly. Albert Einstein said that the most important question we must answer is; Do we live in a hostile world, or do we live in a friendly world? I decided that I live in a friendly world.

By Karen Armsby

August 17, 2006 05:09 PM | Link to this

jim d, Do you call me dear to be condescending or make a point that you think I don’t see? FYI I understand what the issue is. I considered the school and teachers to be partners with me in the education of my children. I expected them to conduct class in an orderly and respectful manner, to have rules and expect their directions to be followed. I expected the teachers to conduct their classes in a civil manner with manners and respect for the students and to expect the students to behave in a similar fashion to the teacher and to fellow students. One’s character is developed over many years and from the many experiences the person has. School, home, work, recreation and church experiences all contribute to the experiences that shape our lives. BTW, the book you linked looks interesting, and looks like it supports my viewpoint as well.

By Taxpayer

August 17, 2006 05:15 PM | Link to this

Karen, do you still say sir and ma’am to, as you said, “others, all others”? And no, my child won’t have a job where she is required to say sir and ma’am. I never have. Her father never has. Why should she?

Thanks for explaining that the world as I perceive it is not the same for everyone else and that my opinion is just my opinion. I had no idea! Amazing what you can learn on this blog!

By Karen Armsby

August 17, 2006 05:16 PM | Link to this

SET, Keep it up, someone may be listening to your message that will wake up and understand. As you say it’s a Brave New World.

By Jeff

August 17, 2006 05:18 PM | Link to this

DC:

Ah, so you mean card-carrying conservatives do not belong in the education field? Again… says more about you…. I would NEVER claim a liberal doesn’t need to be a teacher…

By Karen Armsby

August 17, 2006 05:35 PM | Link to this

Taxpayer, Yes sir, I say sir and ma’am every single day, at work, socially, and at home. I have learned that when you show respect for others, then you earn their respect back. When I listen first, and talk second, then the other person feels valued. I like to fly under the radar, to lead by example, hopefully to make the world a better place, and to have a lot of friends. You are correct sir, you are not REQUIRED to do anything, nor is your daughter or anyone else in your family. However I feel that you are burdened by your defensive attitude. I say yes sir and ma’am, not as you feel, out of fear or subservience, but out of respect.

By Laf

August 17, 2006 05:37 PM | Link to this

By Hmm

August 17, 2006 05:42 PM | Link to this

Karen: I don’t think Taxpayer is teaching her kids that the words are demeaning, or that they’ll build resentment as a result. I think you’re overreaching for your point. I choose the world is more on the friendlier side than the hostile, too. I believe the world is what you make of it, though. Gandhi’s “be the change you want to see in the world” is probably my favorite quote. And, yes, I happen to believe that children and teens can affect the world, too. I don’t believe they should be shutdown, stymied by adults for piddly stuff, and made to feel unconnected to the world. Unfortunately, most of the world doesn’t respect a child’s heart, soul, or mind. They’re simply works in progress. As for the book linked – blech. Character education should come primarily from the family, not a government institution. Schools should stick to the academics.

I said before that I haven’t, and won’t, teach my son to use those words. I know he doesn’t see them with any sort of resentment. He simply doesn’t use them except maybe once a year, like me. I realized yesterday that I actually do use the words rarely. When I’m trying to get a stranger to turn around in the grocery store (like yesterday). Years ago, one fellow turned around and said “don’t call me Sir, I’m not my father”. So, you really can’t please everyone.

By Hmm

August 17, 2006 05:50 PM | Link to this

Jeff: “Ah, so you mean card-carrying conservatives do not belong in the education field?” If they can’t play by the rules, attempt to indoctrinate others’ children, and get off on vindictiveness to children, then heck no - they shouldn’t be in the education field.

By Karen Armsby

August 17, 2006 05:50 PM | Link to this

Laf, If you are always looking backwards, you won’t be moving forward. If you had read SET’s postings over the last year you would know that he has a wealth of personal and family experience in discipline, work ethic, responsibility and respect. Anyone of us can benefit from his advice.

By Karen Armsby

August 17, 2006 06:03 PM | Link to this

Hmm, I was responding to Taxpayer’s post: All you people defending the use of “ma’am” and “sir” have obviously forgotten your history lessons. Nevertheless, I will not shuffle my feet, cast my eyes to the ground, and address or respond to anyone in a way that hearkens back to a time of servitude and discrimination. I will not have my child believe that such a thing is right…. I will not grovel and “yassuh” anyone. If you choose to and want your kids to, go ahead. Just don’t try to force my kid to grovel, too.

By Jeff

August 17, 2006 06:06 PM | Link to this

Hmm:

RE: Your last comment:

ring, ring

Hello?

Hi Pot, this is Kettle. YOU”RE BLACK!!!!

By Taxpayer

August 17, 2006 06:07 PM | Link to this

Karen, please don’t use SIR with me — I’m a woman. And if you must grovel, I prefer “Queen.” Thanks!

By Karen Armsby

August 17, 2006 06:11 PM | Link to this

Taxpayer, Sorry, ma’am.

By Karen Armsby

August 17, 2006 06:16 PM | Link to this

Taxpayer, Ma’am, grovel is a negative word that defines your outlook, not mine. I prefer a positive respect for your right to a difference of opinion. I have enjoyed our debate here. I learned today that there are people for whom a simple, polite “yes, sir” and “yes, ma’am” is an insult. Sad.

By Jeff

August 17, 2006 06:18 PM | Link to this

Hmm:

Responding to your actual arguments:

If a RULE gets in my way and I have a better solution… it is ignored. I follow all LAWS I am bound by… though I am not afraid to challenge a few of them. (ANY teacher worth their salt should be able to say the exact same thing, though I do acknowledge that those with families often have to “not make waves” so that their family doesn’t do without.)

I do not indoctrinate anyone on anything other than common civics and civility. Contrast that to the liberal cause of indoctrinating kindergarteners that homosexuality is perfectly natural or that there is nothing wrong with abortion…

I am not “vindictive” at all. I am the adult in the classroom, the student is the CHILD. I will not tolerate any disrespect/ backtalk, and I will not tolerate a student questioning my judgement or calling me a racist. I deal with 12 year old KIDS right now. They do not have the reasoning capacity on ANY level to justify questioning me.

My rules are simple and the consequences as severe as I can possibly make them. As I tell the kids: You’ve got two choices: Choose to follow my rules, or chose to face the consequences. I INTENTIONALLY make the consequences SOOOO bad as to make the kids not want them. (As ANY teacher does…)

By SET

August 17, 2006 06:53 PM | Link to this

Laf: You are right that growing up black in California during the 60’s gives me a much different outlook on things that those in GA.

And since my opinions have a lot to do with that upbringing, they are my own and other people have different ways of dealing with things.

But I don’t see any cotton in the future for whites or blacks. I couldn’t care less about blacks complaining about slavery or Jim Crow. (The Mexicans-Indians moving into CA and coming to power don’t care either) I have read the stories and I’ve also seen Shindler’s List and lots of other historical accounts of interesting times. Get over it.

My interests are today and what’s coming at us all - tomorrow. It seems that there are more lit fuses burning now than at many times in history and the people that are going to make it are probably the prepared ones. So I’d like the public schools to prepare it’s students for what may come. Cutting them slack, giving them sympathy, or crying about what they want is not preparation. And that goes double for some of the parents.

Some people are continuing to do better generation after generation. I went to school with them. Some people have lost all upward mobility. I believe that had a lot to do with giving them what they thought they wanted.

Anyway, I’m just one opinion on the blog. I’m facinated by the other writers take on the world. I don’t get much of these points of view around here. Our teachers don’t have a blog. Wish the west coast papers would start one. Comparing the east and west coast dialog would be something.

If I sound like there is only one answer to a question I don’t mean it. I can argue opposite sides of an issue just for fun.

I support teachers within their discretion even if I don’t approve of what they are doing. The people on the ground have to be allowed to make decisions within their province until (their judgment is proved to bad that) you fire them.

By SET

August 17, 2006 07:03 PM | Link to this

Gwinnett Teacher: Your post is amazing. I had to read it twice.

Now re-read mine.

None of us will ever meet each other and we certainly don’t know our children. A rhetorical statement to someone (many here have) who has already “introduced” a child as an object of a political point is no insult.

You are a teacher but continue to personalize political (that’s about policy) debate. That is unusual. What do you teach?

One of these days Patti should throw a party and get us all in the same room. It could be fun… who knows, we may get along.

By jim d

August 18, 2006 08:03 AM | Link to this

Karen,

Do you call me dear to be condescending or make a point that you think I don’t see?

Neither, Just a term of endearment, Because I just love discussions with you. You have the ability to make me re-think some of my positions.

School, home, work, recreation and church experiences all contribute to the experiences that shape our lives

Indeed and in my opinion school is the least likely to provide a real life changing experience if those character molding lessons are not re-enforced in the other areas. I contend that for many students, they are not and simply demanding it in school will have no real impact or create any substantial change of character.

Yes the book appears to have been written by a like thinker. But read between the lines to see what character education is really attempting to do. Which in my opinion is to teach Christian values that should be taught in the home and church. Not in a public school Students should be coming to school with the knowledge already in hand of what is right and wrong. Our schools are fighting a no win battle with the students that don’t.

By catlady

August 18, 2006 08:29 AM | Link to this

jim d—you are right about students “should be coming to school with the knowledge already” of right and wrong. And most do, although many do not have the middle-class, Christian understanding of right and wrong. There’s the rub—for many of our students their understanding of right and wrong and what to do about it seems disfunctional and inappropriate and WRONG to those of us in the mainstream. However, for them in their neighborhood, it “works.” So the problem for us —teachers and employers—is to inculcate the values that serve the world as we see it, which might get us killed back in their home world. Unfortunately, the children we are talking about will NOT learn it from THEIR parents, because their parents do not subscribe to(or understand, or agree with) those values.

I hate the “character ed” we are required to do in school because I agree that children should already have this in hand. I also think they should have good eating manners in hand, too, but the reality is, they don’t. So what do we do? Tell them to come back after they have learned (somewhere) the character values to which we subscribe? So what is your solution?

By jim d

August 18, 2006 08:34 AM | Link to this

Karen,

I guess I’m a bit slow at times, but let me point out that you just brought up an excellent example of how a word can take on totally different meanings to different people.

Dear? Sir? Ma’am?

Note that I generally use the term dear, with the utmost respect, when someone challenges me to rethink my stand on an issue. When I say sir or ma’am it isn’t necessarily out of respect but more so a courtesy.

By Ernest

August 18, 2006 08:42 AM | Link to this

SET, you may be on to something in your 7:03 post on 8/17….. :)

*One of these days Patti should throw a party and get us all in the same room. It could be fun… who knows, we may get along. *

By jim d

August 18, 2006 08:53 AM | Link to this

Catlady,

My solution is simple. We accept the differences to the point where it becomes a distraction or breaches legal code.

Eating for example, in some societies it is quite appropriate to belch and in others eating with ones fingers is totally acceptable. We should basically embrace our differences and move on.

However, where laws of this country are violated the offender should be held accountable. Such cases might involve something like the beating of a woman, which in some societies is quite acceptable but is a violation of laws here.

My problem arises when Government employees (teachers fit into this category) attempt to instill their Christian or other values into a captive audience in our public school classrooms. Demanding to be addressed as Sir or Ma’am is in fact forcing a particular teachers values upon a captive audience.

Please Catlady if you really hate what you are being forced to do, visit this web site and browse through the links in whatever areas interest you

http://www.teachersmind.com/

By jim d

August 18, 2006 08:55 AM | Link to this

Well Patti throwing a party for the lot of us may also require a very strong security presence.

By Karen Armsby

August 18, 2006 08:59 AM | Link to this

jim d, Bingo, OK on the dear, words are funny triggers, and I put a sarcastic spin on your use of dear. Peace : ) IMHO school is a real training ground for academics, socialization and civilization for our kids. It is not the sole teacher, unless the parents are slackers or absent, then the school often does function as the parent and social worker. I didn’t mind if my kids came home from school with different ideas about the world, which was more often from their Baptist classmates, whose Christian ideas were not always in sync with our Catholic Christian beliefs. That created an opportunity to discuss the differences with my kids, and to advise them not to debate religion with these friends, as they were entitled to their different views. I told them to be polite and respectful of others opinions. As far as saying that Christian values should not be taught in school, I would question how different Christain values are from the values of other religions or from society as a whole? The major western religions all hold the same basic values, while the eastern religions do differ some, but mostly it’s a matter of semantics.

By Lee

August 18, 2006 09:00 AM | Link to this

RE: “All you people defending the use of “ma’am” and “sir” have obviously forgotten your history lessons. Slaves had to say sir and ma’am to their masters.”

I think the blogger who posted the above is confusing Hollywood B-grade politically correct propaganda with history.

As for me, I will continue to use Ma’am and Sir in my everyday conversations irregardless of the other person’s age, creed, national origin, position or any other criteria. I will also open doors for others (men and women) and try not to spit tobacco juice on the sidewalk.

It’s not “groveling” or being “subservient”. It’s called being polite and yes, showing respect to others.

(BTW, the tobacco juice comment was a joke. Y’all don’t get all carried away about it)

By Gwinnett Teacher

August 18, 2006 09:01 AM | Link to this

SET - I find your posts amazing as well; but, in a horror movie kind of way.

How is telling someone that her child will never be a judge or a mayor arguing policy?

Although I don’t find it germane to this topic - I teach A.P. Calculus, A.P. Computer Science and Gifted Algebra II.

By catlady

August 18, 2006 09:05 AM | Link to this

Karen, what about people who do not subscribe to any specific religious value set? Those who believe you do unto other before they do unto you? That might makes right? That stealing, cheating, and harming others is okay if you get what you need/want? That others “owe” you? That getting by is good enough. It seems like we have students who come with these non-religiously-supported values which generally run counter to Christian values, so what do we do?

By catlady

August 18, 2006 09:14 AM | Link to this

jim d, in accepting the differences, aren’t we assisting in dooming folks without middleclass values to continue in lives bereft of the hope of success and moving up?

I think I am pretty accepting and affirming, but when I see something that is going to cause pain down the road, I try to teach a way to avoid that, whether it is academic skills or “getting by” skills.

By jim d

August 18, 2006 09:20 AM | Link to this

Karen,

As you have astutely pointed out, there are many differences between values even within the Christian religion just between conservatives and liberals. If you subscribed to one would you really want a government employee that you may or may not know subscribes to the other, pushing his or her values on your children in school?

I think not.

This is what I’m talking about; not a conversation of ones values with their peers but the forced indoctrination from one in authority.

By jim d

August 18, 2006 09:23 AM | Link to this

Catlady,

aren’t we assisting in dooming folks without middleclass values to continue in lives bereft of the hope of success and moving up?

I think NO, they are making a choice, a free choice. Isn’t that what this country is supposed to be about?

By jim d

August 18, 2006 09:32 AM | Link to this

Actually Cat,

The choice to change ones future already exists—— in our churches and synagogues.

In my opinion that’s where it rightfully belongs, not in our public schools.

By Karen Armsby

August 18, 2006 10:14 AM | Link to this

catlady, I believe our schools should conduct their classes in a way that teaches, models, and enforces civil discourse, manners, ethics, honesty, responsibility, and good morals (and any other positive values for the students) in order to prepare them for success as adults. If the student comes to school in from a free range feral environment without any positive values, then they too should have to learn the rules and to assume responsibility for their own actions. My opinion is that none of the above is ‘religious’ education per se, even if one’s religion also espouses these values.

By Karen Armsby

August 18, 2006 10:23 AM | Link to this

jim d, Again, I had open talks with my kids about what they learned from teachers and students. I really never saw any indoctrination being carried out in my kids’ classrooms. I reared critical thinking kids who brought contradictory views home and we talked about them. For me and my family school is real life, a microcosm of what they will encounter as adluts, out in society in their jobs, neighborhoods, etc. Can you give me some specific examples of some subtle indoctrination that you think is either religious or subversive to values you as a parent hold?

By SET

August 18, 2006 10:26 AM | Link to this

Gwinnett Teacher:

I suppose part of our differences is the background. Yours seems to be numbercrunching. I am trying to follow the logic of the various posters - how they believe their take on school policy will provide a better life for their students within American Society.

So far yours escapes me but there are more topics coming every day. In time perhaps middle ground will emerge.

Catlady: There is a lot of material on the web about American Class structure. Great reading. Religion has always been used to provide controls on the lower class. A superstitious or pious lower class is a bridle to anarchistic impulses that might run riot in those communities. From Jim and Tammy Bakker to the Catholic Child Molest scandals - organized religion seems pretty much on the way out in the urban areas. The Mormon church seems to be relatively powerful, successful and intact but perhaps their ability to spread in the US is not what it used to be.

I’d prefer the rule of law to be the glue that stabilizes American Society but even that’s turning into a Casino as the US Constitution has been only honored in the breech (rise of centralized power not allowed in the constitution). Depending on who wins the latest election or who bribes the federal and state legislature - anything goes. (for example the credit card companies re-write of bankruptcy law)

There are a number of science fiction/futurist type books that describe a process where the USA decends into superinflation or related chaos and society turns inward as people start to depend on closed societies instead of society at large. Alongside Night and “Oath of Fealty” are two of the best.

This ties in with our school blog like so…

As the US becomes more balkanized, and society loses cohesion as there is no common set of experiences or values - people segregate physically, financially and socially into closed societies. When this happens the smarter and more ruthless (important combination - you can have one without the other) closed society becomes dominant and the others take the crumbs left over. In Oath of Fealty the winning clique (a massive sealed neighborhood north of Los Angeles) constantly jeers at the City Of Los Angeles with the refrain “Think of it as evolution in action.”

To some degree this was predicted in “The Bell Curve” and that prediction was the major focus of the book which was lost in the nature-vs-nurture debate from other themes of the book.

We are already seeing this happen as society fragments and the US government deliberately saturates the US homeland with 3rd world immigrants. The public schools become largely unworkable as the culture changes, and education and assimilation flounders. If the schools were to adopt a rigid assimilation and education policy - kids in uniforms, english only, retention and promotion only through performance - balkinization would stop. In fact our national policy is exactly the opposite - multi-culturism to the point that you can’t count on people stopping for red lights.

And in CA our blue collar workers (prison guards and contractors, for example) are moving into their own gated communities with high walls. The demographics even have their own favorite grocery stores so they won’t even have to see each other buying groceries. Degreed people only marry each other and only hire each other.

Maybe CA is odd and none of these things are happening in your state. But when I see posters here saying that they will instruct their kids to defy classroom rules and instead follow the parent’s instructions - it reminds me of how we are dividing into exclusive societies without a common center. It’s been written about for decades but perhaps the pace of things is quickening.

All this makes picking a jury really difficult especially when your selection time is very limited. There are fewer and fewer common core values anymore. (Some of you may have seen the Chappelle Show skit last night about Chappelle in jury selection)

It still seems we are heading to survival of the fittest. SO what do we do to about teaching the kids to make it in this Brave New World?

— The reason I keep harping on that title is that that’s another book about society fragmenting into rigid segments, each hellbent on keeping in their places. The opposite of a society with social mobility.

Scools are supposed to facilitate social mobility. That’s what I always observed in reading economic history. Schools were to allow people to move up in society not to permanently condition them to stay down. Some of these politically correct schools are tattooing the kids “losers”. A tattoo hard to remove when it’s actually a way of thinking.

Brave New World.

By SNY

August 18, 2006 10:41 AM | Link to this

Catlady,

Who says that middle class value are right? What makes middle class values better than anyother class values?

By jim d

August 18, 2006 10:42 AM | Link to this

Nope, but then I’m a middle of the road Christian so my views aren’t much off from either the right or the left. What I asked was IF one were one extreme or the other would they be willing to accept the others values and would they think it would be right for a government employee to be espousing those values?

And not to appear mean, but what rock have you been hiding under not to see the indoctrination of students? One area is smoking. Kids are being taught that anyone that smokes in enherently evil. They are being taught in school not to hate the habit but to hate the smoker. It has taken me years to undo that teaching and to teach my child not to hate the smoker but to despise the addiction.

By Gwinnett Teacher

August 18, 2006 10:54 AM | Link to this

SET - You shouldn’t automatically draw any conclusions about me based on what I teach. What I teach is one part of what makes me who I am.

My father is a retired attorney (Family Law) and my mother is a retired caseworker. So, trust me, we’ve had several “spirited” debates around our dining room table over the years! My father unfortunately acquired a bitter, cynical, snobbish view of the world like you. Maybe that is a by-product of practicing law and dealing with the dregs of society on a day-to-day basis.

I love to debate, and can argue both sides quite effectively! But, I take issue with you making personal attacks about someone’s child’s future. As I have stated earlier, if you had children of your own, you might understand.

By Lee

August 18, 2006 11:03 AM | Link to this

Karen, re “Can you give me some specific examples of some subtle indoctrination that you think is either religious or subversive to values you as a parent hold? “

Yes, I can. A neighbor’s son once wrote a paper which didn’t conform to the “politically correct” version of events. This student received a failing grade because the teacher didn’t agree with what he wrote. I read the paper and thought it was very well written and his arguements were well researched and cited.

In my view, political correctness is akin to indoctrination as it discourages open, honest discourse.

By DC

August 18, 2006 11:07 AM | Link to this

Catlady I’m teaching my kids the Enron values…jeez are you people for real? Not everyone is Christian and wants you to carry your Wed and Sun worship and bible teachings or your rigid conservative ideology into our kids PUBLIC SCHOOLS. If you want to preach and indoctrinate kids then teach at a private school.

By abc

August 18, 2006 11:09 AM | Link to this

jim d - Sorry, but, I hate the smoker as well as his/her addiction because the addiction effects my life as well. I have more respect for a heroin addict than I do for a smoker! At least what they shoot/snort/whatever has no (known) physical effects like second-hand smoke does.

By jim d

August 18, 2006 11:17 AM | Link to this

ABC,

I respectfully must disagree. All smokers aren’t evil killers that are out to destroy your health. I know many that smoke in private and have no affect on the health of non smokers. But then thats not the point is it? Point is the indoctrination of children that all smokers are evil murders.

By Lee

August 18, 2006 11:18 AM | Link to this

Jim D, and to think, my high school had a “smoking area.”

By Karen Armsby

August 18, 2006 11:26 AM | Link to this

jim d, OK I just called my 24 year old regarding your comment that your son was taught that “smokers are evil.” She said that in the D.A.R.E program in elementary school that was conducted outside of the regular classroom setting, they were taught that people who chose drugs or smoking were making bad choices. So I can see how your son would put a negative image on a smoker, but evil, not sure about that. She also said her 7th grade science teacher told her class that she wouldn’t teach evolution because she didn’t believe in it. That is something we talked about at home and she understood, as we live in a community dominated by a very conservative Christian church. My daughter said she knew that position was the individual teacher’s choice, not the school’s policy directive to her as a government employee. It appears that not all teaching is received and perceived by the students in the same way (Hello!) just like bloggers here and our different takes on words and ideas…. I still don’t believe there was any organized indoctrination of VALUES that ran counter to what I taught at home. I know there were different points of view presented by teachers, but no difference in basic values like honesty, integrity, responsibility, etc.

By jim d

August 18, 2006 11:42 AM | Link to this

Karen,

Two points.

1)what you teach at home and what others teach in their homes could be two totally different sets of values.

2)as we live in a community dominated by a very conservative Christian church.

Now there’s an understatement if I ever heard one. I happen to have first-hand knowledge that it’s an extremely conservative Baptist church that not only exerts influence in your immediate community but in the entire political scene in Gwinnett County. :-)

By jim d

August 18, 2006 11:47 AM | Link to this

Lee,

So did mine but only for teachers, students had to cross the street or hide in the johns.

By Nel

August 18, 2006 11:53 AM | Link to this

I suppose that all is right with the world when many of our young people find nothing remotely odd about wearing your pants around your knees with your underwear showing, your crack in your rear and/or your boobs showing every time you move; calling one another btch, ho, n**a. Have we sold out to such an extent that we feel it necessary to find excuses for common courtesy? I get the impression from some of the posts that “sir” and “ma’am” is somehow subservient. We called male teachers “Sir” or “Mr. ……” and the female teachers “Miss” or Miss or Mrs…..”. What is so wrong with that concept. How far we have sunk as a society that we require so little of our own children! Most of us are who/where we are as a result of our upbringing. Look around, something obviously is very, very wrong, and you can’t blame it on teachers wanting some semblance of respect that some of these kids have never been asked to give to anyone.

By Karen Armsby

August 18, 2006 11:53 AM | Link to this

Lee, My son had a liberal public speaking prof this summer at UGA. Unfortunately my son presented his more conservative views before he realized the prof’s liberal leanings, which did affect his grade! Lesson learned, write and speak to your (grading) audience. I agree there are high school teachers whose political leanings are not always the parents’. But I think that shows the real life differences among people, not a government indoctrination program. If parents feel threatened by the school’s/teacher’s message, then talk to your kids about both sides of the issues. Switch sides and be devil’s advocate at home. Make your kids think critically. It worked for me and my kids, who are independent thinkers, able to research and argue a point, and listen to counter arguments without becoming lost or disillusioned. That is the major problem in schools, not challenging the students to think for themselves, not teaching them to read more, research and debate, in short to use their minds. Schools should first teach the children how to learn, how to think, then supply the information, and access to information. Teaching should be a dynamic process of give and take between teacher and student, not just the spoon feeding of unchallenged facts.

By Karen Armsby

August 18, 2006 12:06 PM | Link to this

jim d, Yes, people have different values, and I prepared my kids to listen and think and talk to us when they heard conflicting information, all part of their education. However, I did not find that the schools taught my kids anything that radically differed from our basic values. We had more issues with the community church and its indoctrination, it’s exclusivity and shunning (not forgiving) practices for erring members, and misinformation promulgated to its members regarding our Catholic faith; ex. that Catholics are not allowed to have their own Bibles, or that Catholics do not believe in Jesus Christ, and so are not even Christians!!!! Challenging, but a good education in different strokes for different folks.

By SET

August 18, 2006 12:10 PM | Link to this

A smoking thread…

As much of a problem as smoking is, I value it as a marker. It may signify different things depending on the generation of the subject. In the current generation of 20 somethings, smoking is a marker for a broad variety of values held by the subject. Those values are not necesarily good or evil, they are just distinctive. Virtually all the jail population are smokers. Virtually none of the college and law school interns I see are smokers.

As far as fundamentalist churches go - around here they are for the trailer park crowd and the old school ghetto types. Religion has it’s uses - first among which is to bridle the present oriented. It is the opiate of the masses. I prefer Reason instead but to each his own. To what expent do we allow it in the public schools? Not in science classes that’s for sure.

GT - your postings are informative. Tell us more.

This thread has gone on a long time. Any new ideas on school kids being required to use formal address in school? Does anyone think the situation is different in the US that the Movie “To Sir With Love” where Sidney Poitier’s character made the east end of London school kids address him as Sir? Does the readership think that Black kids should get special concessions on this point because of their endless trauma over Slavery? Would it make any difference if Sidney Poitier was their teacher?

By DC

August 18, 2006 12:20 PM | Link to this

Karen then I guess you didn’t teach your son that most in higher education are very liberal especially at the Ivy level. And that’s a good thing since conservative christian values are usually with the yes maam and sir group. One group many generations of my family have never been associated with and guess what? it never hurt our families ability to be successful.

And Jim your comment

“Now there’s an understatement if I ever heard one. I happen to have first-hand knowledge that it’s an extremely conservative Baptist church that not only exerts influence in your immediate community but in the entire political scene in Gwinnett County. :-)”

THAT IS THE TRUTH!!! We have a church in our community that comes in before and after school for prayer clubs. And the thing is that they are all buddy buddy with admins and teachers in the school - of course because they all worship at the same place. I find this so unacceptable for a public school. It’s like living in Utah all over again.

By Lee

August 18, 2006 12:23 PM | Link to this

Karen, “Teaching should be a dynamic process of give and take between teacher and student, not just the spoon feeding of unchallenged facts.”

Exactly. Just look at the different points of view we have had on this blog regarding the simple use of Sir and Ma’am. Views, I might add, that I have never, ever heard in my almost half-century on this planet. It has been an eye opener, to say the least - and isn’t that what a public debate should be?

I do think the the government indoctrinates the “politically correct” point of view and teachers are afraid (for good reason) to push the boundaries of civil discourse.

By jim d

August 18, 2006 12:24 PM | Link to this

Karen,

I guess I just see a problem with allowing someone to teach values I agree with, in a public school setting, and then attempting to stop someone I disagree with from doing the same.

By jim d

August 18, 2006 12:34 PM | Link to this

DC,

I have no problem with that practice as long as Wiccans are afforded the same courtesy. :-)

By Gwinnett Teacher

August 18, 2006 12:36 PM | Link to this

Haha - I bet you guys know students who attend “Hebron” High School in Dacula!

By jim d

August 18, 2006 12:37 PM | Link to this

Lee,

Teaching should be a dynamic process of give and take between teacher and student

I agree and in that regard believe high school teachers should be allowed much the same academic freedoms afforded college professors.

By DC

August 18, 2006 12:46 PM | Link to this

Personally I would like to keep religion out of public schools since it just clogs resources and time. However I guess if Wiccans, athetists, Muslims etc. could be afforded their viewpoints like the Bible thumpers do here it would be equal. Come on though this is the South and that’s never going to happen. This yes maam and sir is a white man fundie thing not a respect thing.

By catlady

August 18, 2006 12:50 PM | Link to this

Karen, I love the free range feral environment phrase you used earlier, and it fits!

And to the other respondent about middle class values: are they right? Not necessarily, but they are very useful in our current society for getting ahead.

By Karen Armsby

August 18, 2006 12:55 PM | Link to this

DC, Yes, sir, or ma’am, my son knew that colleges are more liberal leaning, this was just his first encounter with a liberal grading his conservative views. We talked about it and as I said, lesson learned. College challenges our kids in many ways, and I am all for bringing all ideas (political, religious, social, etc.) out for debate. There’s room for all of us to grow in this country, no matter what our political and religious leanings. I am curious, why do you feel it necessary to show your disdain for one group to make a point about the success of your family?

By jim d

August 18, 2006 12:55 PM | Link to this

DC,

AGREED!

By Karen Armsby

August 18, 2006 01:03 PM | Link to this

catlady, Actually I borrowed the free range and feral from one of SET’s posts some blogs back. Sorry SET that I failed to give you credit!

By Karen Armsby

August 18, 2006 01:05 PM | Link to this

DC, What in the world is a “white man fundie thing”?????

By SET

August 18, 2006 01:09 PM | Link to this

Jim D: I don’t see any reason for academic freedom at the high school level. High school is intended for basic education with far less abstract thought than is normal at undergraduate or graduate level. High School does not involve research or cutting edge thought - and it doesn’t need to.

It’s more important that the High School classes all meet a uniform standard than letting teachers - who are not held in that much esteem - do whatever they want. The real learning takes place post High School for the smaller number of students who are intellectually equipped to go on. At that point we have different colleges and universities will vast differences in teaching and thought.

Academic freedom among other things allows teachers to give their version of the subject. Say, like evolution. I don’t think so.

At the college level your ability to go on to 1st choice graduate programs depends partially on which professors you studied under and his reputation and network of contacts. Academic Freedom in that instance is tempered by peer review. High School teaching is just a job. Not a platform for research, publishing and policy.

By Karen Armsby

August 18, 2006 01:12 PM | Link to this

Lee, Thanks, and I agree with your PC comment. I think for the most part that school administrations are knee jerk PC institutions, afraid to be sued, and so they bow to the whiners, and don’t protect their teachers nor the majority of students who come to school to learn and take responsibility for their actions. How’s that for a run on sentence!

By SET

August 18, 2006 01:20 PM | Link to this

Nel: The “school” you described is a school in name only. We have them here. They are incubators for prison inmates and welfare mothers.

Any school worth the name will have dealt with the dress code and potty mouth problems. You might have to go to extremes for awhile - a la “To Sir With Love” (great movie). And you certainly don’t need parental permission.

If the “school” is so addicted to the ADA money that they can’t expell students as needed, there is no learning going on.

By DC

August 18, 2006 02:16 PM | Link to this

SET I wish you could sit in on a class my niece had at her school. It was taught roundtable style and the teachers and students where operating like a university class. This boarding/private school in Boston is a feeder school for Harvard and Princeton. By saying high schoolers don’t need to think abstractly is so retarded I’m surprised it came from someone who says they are so educated. I think youre a fake.

By SNY

August 18, 2006 02:27 PM | Link to this

SET,

Again I disagree with you. I think that high school, especially seniors need to be able to research a topic and deliver an astounding report before they reach college. College professors do not have the time to teach grown people (and by the time they reach college, they are grown) how to do a paper and how to research topics. My 4th grader has been in school for 1 week now and she already has a paper assigned. I’m actually elated. I love private school.

By DC

August 18, 2006 02:31 PM | Link to this

Karen it’s shorthand for white skinned Baptist bible thumpers. Where I’m from you find them on campgrounds in the summertime having prayer meetings but here they are part of the Gwinnett middle class which include the teachers and admin of PUBLIC schools. Oh I so want to be like them that I disdain them LOL!!! I was referring to the fact that SET was saying anyone not subscribing to the yes sir and maam wasn’t going to be successful. I also don’t subscribe to “when in Rome do as …” which is basically what some on this blog are saying about the transplants coming here and being exposed to southern slang.

By SET

August 18, 2006 02:34 PM | Link to this

DC: Are we on the same page?

Here’s the passage “High school is intended for basic education with far less abstract thought than is normal at undergraduate or graduate level.”

Do you understand now? High School is not Stanford University. The teachers at high school do not publish or perish.

You are not fooling anyone here about being an adult.

I and many others took University of CA classes while at High School. We commuted. Big difference between the two levels of education. That was my point.

By SET

August 18, 2006 02:41 PM | Link to this

DC: and I didn’t say anyone who didn’t comply with the teachers classroom rules about formal address “wasn’t going to be successful”

You are saying that. Your interpretation of points of debate are consistently off - mainly because of an emotional involvement with each subject that runs throughout your writing. Your passion is getting in the way of your reading.

Which is why it doesn’t appear that you are an adult.

By DC

August 18, 2006 02:46 PM | Link to this

Do you understand now? High School is not Stanford University. The teachers at high school do not publish or perish

Do you understand that shouldn’t make a difference in teachers having academic freedom? I can guarantee you that many of the boarding schools and public charters in the NE do teach on the same level as Stanford. I’ve seen it first hand with my nieces friend who entered the Intel (formely the Westinghouse) competition.

By DC

August 18, 2006 05:34 PM | Link to this

Ha I pushed a button! SET your condensing tone is just like most arrogant fakes I’ve met in my life. I highly doubt you are who you pretend to be on these boards. You’re probably some old man sitting in his underwear eating catfood. Don’t try to worm your way out of things you imply. Well this topic is getting old and I hate old…got that SET

By Jeff

August 18, 2006 05:41 PM | Link to this

Political Indoctrination: Happens FAR more by the left than the right. Cases in point: “Tolerance” - yet the people here that I would say would proclaim it are CONSTANTLY bashing those with a conservative Judeo-Christian viewpoint. “Diversity” - hold the straight WASP male down wile promoting everyone else is the currently accepted view.

Generally if you see “political indoctrination” coming from a conservative it is simply a teacher that is doing one of two things: a) standing up for their freedom as an individual or b) promoting commonly accepted values - such as standing for the Pledge of Allegiance or saying “sir” or “ma’am”. (A third time would be when a conservative history teacher shows what ACTUALLY happened in an event rather than the PC (per)version of it….)

By SET

August 18, 2006 06:07 PM | Link to this

I rest my case.

By jim d

August 21, 2006 09:25 AM | Link to this

SET,

I respectfully disagree.

High schools should be about teaching students to think effectively. To think effectively one must be able to:

Acquire, evaluate, integrate, and apply knowledge

Identify and solve complex problems

Think critically and reason effectively

Think imaginatively and creatively

Generate and evaluate ideas

Apply learning to life situations

Understand and apply mathematical and scientific concepts

What better way to teach these principles than allowing academic freedom?

By Karen Armsby

August 21, 2006 09:58 AM | Link to this

jim d and others, Academic Freedom works only when the student has successfully learned a body of knowledge and set of research, writing, and speaking skills. The skills you outlined and others discussed are actually those already taught within the framework of an organized curriculum in high school. When the student has mastered the basic knowledge and skills then he is ready to be exposed to a professor whose academic freedom challenges the students to use all they know to evaluate the new information he teaches and then go beyond what they already knew, or thought they knew.

By Big Momma

August 21, 2006 11:15 AM | Link to this

Billybobooyah did not pull punches when stating his prejudice against the South. I guess everyone from his hometown looks and speaks like Archie Bunker! Don’t be such a bigot. Have you seen the list of “new Ivies” in Newsweek? There are several located in Southern towns.

My niece from a small town in South Carolina, uses formal address when speaking to elders. She made a 4 on her physics AP test and a 5 on her calculus AP test. She was named scholar/athlete and graduated with honors from her public school and is attending college on a scholarship. Also, the South has many high school kids who do score perfectly on the SAT.

By jim d

August 21, 2006 12:15 PM | Link to this

Actually Karen,

Pre-NCLB many high school teachers had a level of academic freedom, they were able to teach a curriculum that wasn’t based on meeting some superficial goals. A couple of subjects come to mind almost instantly when I think of this.

History, teachers were allowed to cover anything that had occurred in history. Now they teach a very narrow and oft-times inaccurate version so students will have the answers for a single test and rarely do they explore the full range of what effects political decisions have made on the world we live in. (suggested reading—Lies my teacher told me — James W. Loewen

American Literature is another area that has been narrowed to only briefly touch on some of our great authors and even then little insight is given into what was happening in the world that may have prompted them to write particular pieces.

It is just my humble opinion, but eliminating NCLB and not reconstituting the academic freedoms teachers once had, will not improve education anymore than NCLB has. Until we get back to allowing teachers to teach, I fully expect to see education continue its downward spiral in this country.

By Billybobooyah

August 21, 2006 12:21 PM | Link to this

“new Ivies”???Thanks for a monday afternoon LOL!!There might be some great colleges and universities but there are NO IVIES in the south. There aren’t many students in GA scoring perfectly on their SATS and the stats show that both SC and GA are the lowest in the country. Like anywhere there are a few smart ones but I’m betting the ones who recently (since the ATL olympics) scored perfect in the South are transplants.

By Billybobooyah

August 21, 2006 12:33 PM | Link to this

new ivy = stupidest idea for an article and serves to placate those feeling inferior because they’re not going to an ivy league university

By jim d

August 21, 2006 12:38 PM | Link to this

Right—-Billy!

Those kids at Emory certainly are inferior.

Keep that in mind when you go looking for a doctor.

By Karen Armsby

August 22, 2006 07:26 PM | Link to this

jim d, NCLB may have resulted in curriculum constriction, but there was a set curriculum in place before, and the teachers did not teach whatever they felt like. My kids (who graduated ‘00, ‘03, and ‘04) had teachers who had complete academic freedom, their parents! We encouraged reading often and widely and challenging their beliefs. And the government didn’t have a clue we were doing it!