Get Schooled

By luvs2teach

July 27, 2006 04:09 PM | Link to this

Patti - I, too, loved diagramming sentences in school - grammar was my favorite part of the-class-formerly-known-as-English. I do make my share of mistakes, though, and the more conversational style of blog and e-mail writing probably don’t keep my grammar skills as sharp as they once were.

My favorite book to help me write was Strunk & White’s “The Element of Style” - that slim little volume is essential to any writing class, IMHO. Every graduating senior should get a copy of that along with a good dictionary, thesaurus, and globe.

I’m so geeky, I even have a favorite punctuation mark: the semi-colon! I love how it’s used - for a great example of its usage, read almost anything written by John Irving.

By Tina

July 27, 2006 04:18 PM | Link to this

I don’t think diagramming is taught much anymore, and it’s a shame! I had a wonderful high school language teacher who was very particular about grammar. She is still teaching today! I do daily grammar sentences with my 3rd graders to work on finding mistakes in sentences.

By Patti Ghezzi

July 27, 2006 04:24 PM | Link to this

Luvs, I favor the colon. I find it so handy. The semi-colon is fun, too. The most overrated punctuation, IMHO, is the exclamation point. I hate how overused it is, even when there is no excitement implied in the statement!!! I would say my downfall is the apostrophe. I’m always making careless mistakes with that one.

From one grammar geek to another!

Patti (One of my favorite books: “A Prayer for Owen Meany”)

By Whatever

July 27, 2006 04:31 PM | Link to this

Man..I think about that ALL THE TIME. I have a daughter that’s headed to the eighth grade this fall and NEVER ONCE has she brought home an assignment that included sentence diagrams. I think the kids of today are being cheated greatly. If you want to see the negative impact (beyond their inability to express verbal thoughts coherently), just look at some of their profile pages and how they blog. All this combination upper/lower case garbage and uses of 2,u,r, etc. instead of spelling it out. They’re hurtin’ big time! I am fortunate though that my child is very well spoken and I do work on usage with her constantly. But maaan! It’s sad.

By Whatever

July 27, 2006 04:32 PM | Link to this

Man..I think about that ALL THE TIME. I have a daughter that’s headed to the eighth grade this fall and NEVER ONCE has she brought home an assignment that included sentence diagrams. I think the kids of today are being cheated greatly. If you want to see the negative impact (beyond their inability to express verbal thoughts coherently), just look at some of their profile pages and how they blog. All this combination upper/lower case garbage and uses of 2,u,r, etc. instead of spelling it out. They’re hurtin’ big time! I am fortunate though that my child is very well spoken and I do work on usage with her constantly. But maaan! It’s sad.

By luvs2teach

July 27, 2006 04:34 PM | Link to this

Patti - I have issues with quotes and where to put punctuation marks - inside the quotes just doesn’t look right sometimes, and I’ll often rewrite my sentence just so I don’t do that.

I agree!!! with the overuse of the exclamation point, although I am so guilty of that myself.

“A Prayer for Owen Meany” is one of my favorites, too - I can’t read the last part, when Owen realizes the importance of why he was the way he was, without needing a box of kleenex. When I first started reading Irving in high school, I started imitating his writing style in my English classes - they say that good readers make good writers - it certainly helped me in my AP Comp class.

By Jane Kitson

July 27, 2006 04:53 PM | Link to this

O.K. here is one for you….I am an early childhood consultant and published author. I was speaking to a group of 90 educators in Vermont on May 12. I have written a poem and song that include ( for pre-schoolers) kittie and birdie. I received an evaluation that said, “do not use kittie and birdie, these are not words.” Can anyone help here? I have used these in 43 other states and never heard a peep and also with my own children when they were small….am I WAY off base? Is it a southern thing???

By Marlee

July 27, 2006 04:55 PM | Link to this

Gone are the days where kids are issued traditional grammar books. Now days the lessons involving grammar are taught through a piece of literature. A county coordinator once stated at an in-service - “Don’t ever let me catch you teaching grammar in isolation.” I find that most kids want a grammar book. I saved a set of grammar books from the early 90’s (when teaching grammar wasn’t so controversial). My students now sign-up to check out the grammar books. They say it helps to have practice and a reference guide (DUH!) I understand that due to many complaints, the county will issue each middle school child a grammar workbook for the 2006-2007 school year.

By PJ

July 27, 2006 04:58 PM | Link to this

My pet grammar peeve is using “that” instead of “who” when referring to a person. “I had a wonderful teacher that taught me grammar in junior high” is like fingernails on a blackboard to me.

That teacher was a person, not a thing.

I had a wonderful teacher who taught me grammar in junior high.

By Dragonlady

July 27, 2006 05:04 PM | Link to this

Patti, You are absolutely correct about the subjunctive mood—good for you! But the subjunctive seems to be a dying animal. I am a long time English teacher who cringes when I hear “between you and I,” and unfortunately I have been doing a great deal of cringing in the past several years. And lie versus lay is so misunderstood by the general public that the distinction between these two verbs is going the way of the dinosaurs. It saddens me a great deal to see and hear (on tv) people you would expect to be articulate butchering the English language. For a fun look at grammar, read “Eats, Shoots and Leaves.” (Yes, I know book titles are not supposed to be in quotes, but this email won’t allow me to underline.) This grammar ignorance is another characteristic of our modern world. I am fighting a losing battle in my classrooms. But still fighting.

By Swangirl

July 27, 2006 05:52 PM | Link to this

Patti, I’m guessing that you also use AP style. That adds another wrinkle to the mix that can be difficult to explain, such as the use of commas in a series of three nouns (example: red, white and blue).

“Eats, Shoots and Leaves” is indeed hilarious, Dragonlady.

By frank123

July 27, 2006 05:53 PM | Link to this

Based on what I have seen from my 4th and 8th grader’s work, grammar is given much less emphasis.

I was taught by nuns and who worked on our grammar. I hated it and my grammar is poor. Now I rely on the grammar program on Word Perfect 9, but it still doesn’t help me with where to put the period when there are parenthasises.

Keep up the good fight Dragonlady!!

By Matt

July 27, 2006 05:54 PM | Link to this

Grammar-fiends, you’ll also love Modern American Usage - A Guide, by Wilson Follett and revised by Erik Wensberg. Carries the torch, to a degree, for the beloved Strunk & White.

By Matt

July 27, 2006 05:54 PM | Link to this

Grammar-fiends, you’ll also love Modern American Usage - A Guide, by Wilson Follett and revised by Erik Wensberg. Carries the torch, to a degree, for the beloved Strunk & White.

By OldSchool

July 27, 2006 06:01 PM | Link to this

My grammar is likely nightmarish for everyone but I do try to get it right. Both of my daughters had wonderful grammar instruction in both middle grades and high school. My oldest writes beautifully and has thanked her teachers many, many times for the job security she enjoys that is directly related to her skill.

Two books that served both daughters well during their school years are “The Transitive Vampire” and “The Well-Tempered Sentence.” I find myself going to both and getting lost in them. The rules and examples are brilliant and unforgettable.

Ms. Kitson, the versions of “kittie” and “birdie” that I am familiar with are “kitty” and “birdie.” In a children’s poem or song, I can hardly see any problem with your spellings so sing on and let the naysayers stew.

PJ, I am 100% with you on your pet peeve. I find myself doing a slow burn (read back through some of the other posts) when I run across a “that” when it should be a “who.” Add the misuse of “bring” and “take” to the list as well.

By teach overseas

July 27, 2006 06:02 PM | Link to this

Well, don’t complain about kids being cheated until you speak to “reading and writing specialists” that come to the middle schools. Teaching straight grammar or spelling for that matter will get you in hot water with most admin- as the kids would say “that’s so 5 minutes ago. Most kids and parents for that matter would be hysterical if a teacher actually took off points for such mistakes.

I once sent home a research paper with grammer and spelling corrections on it and had a parent in my room challenging my authority. Once she left.. I did figure out why she was so hot under the collar—— she wrote the paper and was mad I had called out some of her mistakes!

What does scare me is how the public goes on and on when a teacher makes spelling or gramatical mistake. Some of these kids in our classrooms will someday become teachers! Who is going to teach them if we don’t?

By fk

July 27, 2006 06:23 PM | Link to this

The possessive of it drives me crazy. It’s its. The best advice I ever received from a teacher came in the third grade. Say the sentence or phrase out loud. If it still sounds wrong, it probably is.

Grammar lessons, books, etc. are alive and well in my son’s public high school. He’s going into the 10th grade. He says he even had a grammar workbook in middle school.

By Anthony

July 27, 2006 06:37 PM | Link to this

Where is a dictionary when you need one? There it go …

By Anthony

July 27, 2006 06:37 PM | Link to this

Where is a dictionary when you need one? There it go …

By G-Dog

July 27, 2006 06:39 PM | Link to this

nome-sayin’?

By Janine

July 27, 2006 06:45 PM | Link to this

Patti….I believe you are correct in using “were”…I went to school “back in the day”won’t say which day” in Virginia when every teacher not only corrected written but also spoken grammar…never let any incorrect usage slip by! One of them told us to always remember if the word “if ” is comes before, it’s always “were” never “was”….You know, in “IF I WERE YOU…” never “IF I WAS YOU”.

By Janine

July 27, 2006 06:50 PM | Link to this

ONe of the really bizarre things , at least in Dekalb, our middle school did not even have a grammar book! [Dekalb didn’t buy the ones that came with the Language ARts books they adopted ]…and on the CRCT Language ARts section through 2005, 99% of the language arts questions were on grammar! I don’t know about 2006 tests.

By cometspanish

July 27, 2006 07:00 PM | Link to this

Patti, while I read your blog frequently, I have never before been moved to post a response. I applaud your use of the subjunctive, which was appropriate due to the “contrary to fact” usage. As a high school teacher of a Modern Language (formerly called Foreign Language) I can assure you that some teachers are still teaching traditional English grammar. However, many of us are doing so in Spanish, French, or other “foreign” language classes. It frustrates me that some of my students cannot differentiate adjectives versus adverbs, nor do they recognize compound nor complex sentences.

Languages are fluid, and change constantly according to the time and place in which they are used. Today’s technology (email, IM, etc.) has greatly affected our spoken and written language. Regardless, some of us continue to present and use standard forms of English in front of our students. As a colleague stated, “Some of our kids know what they are talking about, but they don’t talk so good. And they don’t write so good either.” Thank you for challenging your readers to think.

By jg

July 28, 2006 08:10 AM | Link to this

Mr. Duffy - 6th Grade - Browne School -02172 - 1973 - He would charge us money if we did not use the correct grammar. Ain’t was 10 cents, Can I instead of May I was 2 cents, swearing was 25 cents, etc. He said it would cost us something in life if we did not speak correctly. The money collect through the year paid for a great class party! By the way, I won with only a fine of 8 cents for the entire school year! God Bless Him!!!

By jg

July 28, 2006 08:11 AM | Link to this

Mr. Duffy - 6th Grade - Browne School -02172 - 1973 - He would charge us money if we did not use the correct grammar. Ain’t was 10 cents, Can I instead of May I was 2 cents, swearing was 25 cents, etc. He said it would cost us something in life if we did not speak correctly. The money collect through the year paid for a great class party! By the way, I won with only a fine of 8 cents for the entire school year! God Bless Him!!!

By Corey

July 28, 2006 08:23 AM | Link to this

I remember Ms. Brewer who drilled diagraming sentences into our heads. We even diagramed the preamble to the Constitution. Did you know that the preamble is one convoluted sentence?

Back then I attended an all black, segregated, rural school in South Carolina, but Ms. Brewer, among others, was very serious about our education. Standing at that black board and drawing the lines to place subjects, verbs, etc in the right places seemed like eternity, but I became fond of it.

Thank you, Ms. Brewer!

By past50mom

July 28, 2006 08:27 AM | Link to this

I remember anxious minutes diagramming long sentences on the blackboard in 5th through 8th grade in Catholic school in Florida in the ‘60’s. My ninth grade public high school English teacher, Sarah Fulkerson, at Beavercreeek HS in Ohio, was a very strict grader of grammar on our papers. She gave one grade for content, the other for grammar and mechanics. My understanding of grammatical structure in English has helped me learn other languages. Finally, law school cut all of the passive voices out of my professional writing. Learning and improving my oral and written grammar is a lifelong effort for me. I am not so sure that the schools today are teaching with the same emphasis on grammar that I had in school forty years ago….

By Kyle

July 28, 2006 08:41 AM | Link to this

My teacher taught that “one” and “was/were” should agree. In this case, then, it should be “was” and not “were.”

By Karen Armsby

July 28, 2006 08:41 AM | Link to this

Patti, To answer your question about your examples, I don’t think it is a matter of using the subjunctive as in “if i were you.” I would have used “was” as it matches “one.” The plural “schools” is part of a prepositional phrase describing “one.” I say “one was,” not “one were.” “Every” is plural in the other example and matches “were.” I am not an expert, so I am sure a teacher will correct me if I am wrong.

By Kyle

July 28, 2006 08:42 AM | Link to this

It should be “was” to agree with “one”.

By Kyle

July 28, 2006 08:47 AM | Link to this

“One” does not “agree” with “were” in that sentence. Moreover, the phrase “of …” has no bearing on the issue.

By Litmajor

July 28, 2006 09:05 AM | Link to this

luvs2teach-

You’ll be happy to know that many English professors at Kennesaw State treasure “The Elements of Style.” I have a copy of my bookshelf and although it’s bruised and worn, I think it’s perfect.

As an English Education major, I’ve observed only one class diagramming sentences. It was a Technical Communications class at a Cobb County high school. Perhaps grammar instruction is only given to those who are not on the college track?

Back in Virginia, not only did we diagram sentences, we had to beat our classmates to it.

By Karen

July 28, 2006 09:15 AM | Link to this

This blog is a very interesting read. As a classroom teacher of young children I can say that grammmar is taught, but it’s very difficult to “undo” the grammar of home and society in general. I am old enough to clearly remember always diagramming sentences in Mrs. Koening’s eight grade English class and having to be prepared to stand and repeat the eight parts of speech on a daily bases. One never knew who she would call upon on any given day! I should also mention that my mother was my first (and best) grammar teacher. It was she who taught me a love of words and the art of the well-written sentence.

By Charlie

July 28, 2006 09:23 AM | Link to this

I remember we did some diagramming in middle or high school (mid to late ‘80’s). However, the place I really learned grammar was in Spanish class. You cannot properly learn Spanish verbs, etc., unless you know the difference between present perfect, present progressive, preterite, etc. I always thought it was ironic that I only really learned English grammar usage when I started studying Spanish.

By deidre

July 28, 2006 09:25 AM | Link to this

i went to braialake elementary school MANY years ago and had 2 of the most wonderful teachers-Mrs. Flander and Mrs. Moore. They were awesome english/reading teachers. The things i learned from them stay with me all these (many) years later and have helped me teach my children proper grammar. The schools these days do nto do a great job of it. I am thankful that my children have been lucky enough to have teachers who take it upon themselves to try and teach the importance of grammar and proper word usage.

(please forgive any mistakes :) )

By Charlie

July 28, 2006 09:33 AM | Link to this

I remember we did some diagramming in middle or high school (mid to late ‘80’s). However, the place I really learned grammar was in Spanish class. You cannot properly learn Spanish verbs, etc., unless you know the difference between present perfect, present progressive, preterite, etc. I always thought it was ironic that I only really learned English grammar usage when I started studying Spanish.

By lt

July 28, 2006 09:43 AM | Link to this

I found it interesting that the earlier bloggers understood the subjunctive issue, whereas later bloggers seemed to dismiss that entirely.

I find i must “vote” on the side of the subjunctive use.

But then, I was educated over 40 years ago. I think it makes a difference.

By lt

July 28, 2006 09:46 AM | Link to this

I found it interesting that the earlier bloggers understood the subjunctive issue, whereas later bloggers seemed to dismiss that entirely.

I find i must “vote” on the side of the subjunctive use.

But then, I was educated over 40 years ago. I think it makes a difference.

By Stacey

July 28, 2006 09:49 AM | Link to this

My grammar pet-peeve is the misuse of “me, myself & I”. My uncle’s pet-peeve (and the mistake I’m most guilty of) is the misuse of “take” & “carry”. For example, I would ask him to carry me to school and he would refuse and offer to take me instead.

By Shannon

July 28, 2006 09:53 AM | Link to this

In my opinion, this statement should read:

“Donna Scullin also sees no reason to transfer her sons out of Norcross High, even if one of the county’s less diverse and higher-performing schools was an option.”

I was always taught that the subject of a sentence cannot be in a prepositional phrase.

By Gerald

July 28, 2006 09:54 AM | Link to this

My mother taught English grammar in Atlanta high schools for over 30 years, and, were it not for her, I would not have been able to win the prize for longest gramatically correct sentence in my class. In fact, if you’re an Atlanta native and over 35 years old, you were probably one of her students at some time or another. God bless the English teacher!

By Karen Armsby

July 28, 2006 09:55 AM | Link to this

I looked up subjenctive, here’s a link, http://www.bartleby.com/64/C001/061.html I will stand by my traditional opinion that it’s not subjuctive as “would” or “should” was not used in the sentence. It would be subjuctive if the sentnce were rewritten as: “Even if one of the county’s less diverse and higher-performing schools were an option, Donna Scullin would not see a reason to transfer her sons out of Norcross High.”

By Karen Armsby

July 28, 2006 09:55 AM | Link to this

I looked up subjenctive, here’s a link, http://www.bartleby.com/64/C001/061.html I will stand by my traditional opinion that it’s not subjuctive as “would” or “should” was not used in the sentence. It would be subjuctive if the sentnce were rewritten as: “Even if one of the county’s less diverse and higher-performing schools were an option, Donna Scullin would not see a reason to transfer her sons out of Norcross High.”

By Karen Armsby

July 28, 2006 09:59 AM | Link to this

I looked up subjunctive, here’s a link, http://www.bartleby.com/64/C001/061.html IMHO it’s not subjuctive as “would” or “should” was not used in the sentence. It would be subjuctive if the sentnce were rewritten as: “Even if one of the county’s less diverse and higher-performing schools were an option, Donna Scullin would not see a reason to transfer her sons out of Norcross High.”

By Patrick

July 28, 2006 10:01 AM | Link to this

There have been some great responses to this issue, but I would like to add one more solution to the mix. To you parents out there: get your children in foreign language classes as early as you can. American students learn grammar through foreign languages, especially Latin, now more than ever. The English department is so encumbered by demands to teach the literary tradition that its teachers do not have the time or the textbooks to teach grammar. While many still do, I begrudgingly say that (as alluded to in your own responses) many of our English teachers now don’t know grammar as a result of their educational experience. I said this when I graduated high school and perennially I hear students say that they learned all of their grammar knowledge from a FL classroom.

By catlady

July 28, 2006 10:01 AM | Link to this

I was fortunate to have a mom and dad (she would be 84 now, he would be 87) who both graduated from college and who were both careful students of grammar and pronunciation. In school I can recall making sentence diagrams endlessly from 3rd to 9th grade. Now I don’t think there is much of that, nor does there seem to be much emphasis on using correct grammar. We have teachers at our school who “have went” everywhere except to a reputable college which would have scared the bad grammar out of them! (Seriously, in college in 1973 we had to pass muster in speaking correctly, as well as handwriting, before we could get a BS in education.) It seems to me, in the section of the South where I have lived, that spoken grammar is generally better than it used to be, thanks in part to TV. I remember a parent of one of my mother’s students saying, “Ah nevah thot Ahd live to see the dayh mah son would be tawt byh a Yankee!” and my mother’s eyes narrowing and saying, “Who is a Yankee?” Upon being assured she was also from the South, he said, “Buht yew don’ tawk lak we dew!” and my mother saying, “Well, no, I don’t.”

By lt

July 28, 2006 10:02 AM | Link to this

I think the “following the word IF” rule is best… to avoid the “If I were [whatever]” problem, try “If he were king…” or “If she were to win the contest…” The use of the word “one” to stand in for a pronoun should not change the rule. The word “one” in this case is not a number, it is a politically correct pronoun substitute. Perhaps understanding that will aid in understanding the use of the subjunctive “were” — one hopes. [how’s that for avoiding the use of punctuation inside of quote marks?

By Karen Armsby

July 28, 2006 10:06 AM | Link to this

Sorry for the multiple posts! I though my connection broke. Mea culpa…

By jim d

July 28, 2006 10:16 AM | Link to this

Karen,

Is the word “was” not the third singular of were?

By Liz

July 28, 2006 10:17 AM | Link to this

I recall doing sentence diagrams in 8th grade English and vocabulary/spelling quizzes every week through high school. I found that the best way for me to learn and appreciate grammar was by studying foreign languages - 3 years of Spanish in high school and 4 years of college German (followed by a year of living in Germany.) Although the grammar for these languages is obviously different from English, the concepts are similar and apply in much the same way.

By Stacey

July 28, 2006 10:21 AM | Link to this

I’m confused about the proper response to “thank you”. My husband and I believe it’s “you’re welcome” because in this situation, you’re is used in the present tense (you are). More often than not, I hear (and see it written) “you’re welcomed”.

By Jill

July 28, 2006 10:22 AM | Link to this

I have my very own “grammar nazi” t-shirt and I never wear b/c I sometimes think that I am the only one. Boy was I wrong!

By Cammi

July 28, 2006 10:26 AM | Link to this

I lived the first 14 years of my life in Chicago before I moved to Georgia. The correct usage of Grammar was stressed not only in school, but at home as well. I can recall having to write “ain’t is not a word” 100’s of times as a child, at the request of my mother. Moving to Georgia was a definite culture shock for myself and my family. We were not accustomed to using or hearing words such as “hey” and “y’all”, or referring to every carbonated beverage as “a Coke.” My mother would often say that “hay is for horses.” Admittedly, over the last 20 years I have used the word “hey.” But as God as my witness, I have never referred to a Sprite as “a Coke”. LOL

By Patrick

July 28, 2006 10:26 AM | Link to this

Patti is right; it is correct. Her sentence is called a contrary-to-fact condition (because the implication of her condition is that it is not true), which needs the subjunctive “were”. English also has conditions that use the indicative, when the outcome is a certainty. For instance, “If you are for him, you are against me.” Since this is more a statement of fact (at least in the speaker’s point of view), it is in the indicative. Note too that the English “would” is not always the subjunctive, but often is a substitute for the future perfect indicative “will have”.

By the way, the general insanity that all of this precludes should tell you that these grammatical terms are not native to English, but are adopted from earlier languages. This is another huge reason why fitting Latin into one’s education is such a good idea.

By Cammi

July 28, 2006 10:26 AM | Link to this

I lived the first 14 years of my life in Chicago before I moved to Georgia. The correct usage of Grammar was stressed not only in school, but at home as well. I can recall having to write “ain’t is not a word” 100’s of times as a child, at the request of my mother. Moving to Georgia was a definite culture shock for myself and my family. We were not accustomed to using or hearing words such as “hey” and “y’all”, or referring to every carbonated beverage as “a Coke.” My mother would often say that “hay is for horses.” Admittedly, over the last 20 years I have used the word “hey.” But as God as my witness, I have never referred to a Sprite as “a Coke”. LOL

By Rick

July 28, 2006 10:39 AM | Link to this

Someone at Kroger must be a grammar nazi too. I noticed that they changed the sign to read, “10 items or fewer,” rather than “10 items or less.”

By Nickelbelle

July 28, 2006 10:49 AM | Link to this

I can remember diagramming sentences throduring my entire school time (Cobb County in the 70s to mid 80s). I now homeschool my children (after having taught in public and private schools for a few years) and we are diagramming sentences too. They are now in higher grades, but for elementary grades I believe that the Rod & Staff English curriculum is the best.

By sue

July 28, 2006 10:54 AM | Link to this

I remember diagraming sentences in 8th grade, and then again in a writing class during my Freshman year in college. I loved doing it. It was like doing math in English class.

Of course 8th grade and Freshman year were both a long, long time ago and I don’t think I would remember how to do it now.

Even though my grammar skills might not be as sharp as they once were, I cringe at obvious grammatical errors. Most of my coworkers have problems with their possessive nouns and pronouns. It drives me crazy! (They would have said, “Most of my coworkers have problems with they possessive nouns and pronouns.”) One day, there was a sign on the door to another department. It proudly declared, “It’s Kristen Birthday!” I printed up another sign that read, “It’s Kristen’s Birthday!” and replaced the original. After all, it was where clients could see it.

I can see where it would be very difficult to teach grammar to children when this is what they hear in their homes everyday. However, I don’t think it’s impossible.

During my younger years, I frequently used the word “seen” when I should have said “saw.” My parents still do.

One day in an English class, I was answering a teacher’s question about a story we had read. I started out saying, “The girl seen…” The teacher interrupted me with, “What?”
I started again, “Mary seen….”
“What?” Finally I realized the error and answered, “Mary saw a bird outside her window”

I’ve never made that mistake again.

There is one error that I knowingly make on a regular basis. It has to do with the agreement of a noun and verb. The noun in question is “none.” “None” is singular, and “is” should be used with it. However, “none” is usually combined with plural nouns as in: “none of the groups,” or “none of the boys,” and it sounds wrong to me to use “is.” Therefore, I will say that “None of the girls are ready,” instead if “None of the girls is ready.”

By luvs2teach

July 28, 2006 11:07 AM | Link to this

Great discussion! I had to laugh when I reread my first post and saw my own disagreement (style…don’t) - it was actually a typo, not a grammar error - I forgot to pluralize “styles” - oh, well!

Litmajor - glad to hear it! I especially like the part about being concise - so many people think more words sound better. My personal theory is that it’s a result of those essays where you needed to write X amount of words. Anyone remember turning every contraction into its two words just to help make the word counts? (don’t = do not, etc)

It - well done!

Another pet peeve of mine (and I have gotten into more than one argument over it) is “between you and I” instead of “between you and me.”

Strangely, that argument is usually with fairly well-educated people who say correctly things like “This is she” and “If I were you.”

Patti - I’ve got to agree with you and the use of the subjunctive in this case - Patrick explained it perfectly.

Cammi - despite being a Yankee, I have completely adopted the phrase “y’all” - I like having a plural version of “you” like French and Spanish. However, I’ve been told by more than one Southerner that the “correct” plural of “y’all” is “all y’all” - now that I can’t quite get myself to say!

Native Southerners, please explain to me “might could” - I actually had a friend who talk LANGUAGE ARTS argue with me that that phrase is grammatically correct.

By lt

July 28, 2006 11:15 AM | Link to this

…and while on the topic of grammar peeves… “then” instead of “than”; “your” instead of “you’re”; “it’s” instead of “its” (as in “The dog hated its collar.”) — oh there are a few more but my brain has absorbed its limit … I have so much enjoyed today’s column/blog and the comments from others. Grammar is one of those all-too-often ill-used skills [did I do that right?], and it’s good to see the topic being bandied about like a badminton birdie!

By Rick

July 28, 2006 11:43 AM | Link to this

Sue - I completely agree with you on the “none” issue. The only way I can make myself use it correctly is if I think of it as meaning “not one.”

By Rick

July 28, 2006 11:46 AM | Link to this

Sue - I completely agree with you on the “none” issue. The only way I can make myself use it correctly is if I think of it as meaning “not one.”

By lt

July 28, 2006 11:47 AM | Link to this

laughing!! on southernisms — One absolutely MUST “take and put” something, they can never simply take it or put it! My husband gives me absolute fits about falling into that trap.

And how about the youthful “I was gonna do it” — or is it all one word — Iwazgonnadooit! Followed of course by “Honest!”

Thanks for the laughs and memories today, gang!

linny t

By sue

July 28, 2006 11:49 AM | Link to this

It, I have to agree with you. “Your” instead of “you’re” is my equivalent to fingernails on a chalkboard.

By Lola

July 28, 2006 11:56 AM | Link to this

For me it’s who and whom that makes me cringe when used incorrectly. Unfortunately, that’s about 98% of the time, in both publications and anyone on television. When I actually called a news station to tell them it was being used improperly, they told me that “nobody really notices that stuff” (I kid you not). I said “Well obviously SOME of us do if I’m taking the time to call you about it.” And then I was politely thanked for my call and absolutely nothing changed.

My mother is from Germany and learned English as a second language, and as a result, knows perfect grammar and conjugation, both of which were then pounded into my head as a child. As a result, I grew to love the English lanugage and went on to double major in journalism and English. My daughter (now two), will also learn correct grammar, and there will be no difference in her home-speak and school-speak. It screams ignorance to me when someone isn’t able to master the one and only language they are expected to know, and that seems to be a large part of the population now, unfortunately.

Great topic, Patti!

By Teacher's Kid

July 28, 2006 12:04 PM | Link to this

Here’s to Dr. Mary Kay Humphress (a.k.a. “Doc” Humphress)! She was the best English teacher I ever had at Tucker High School and said it best when she would admonish us with, “Write like an educated person and not like a mo-ron (heavy Kentucky accent on the first syllable of the word)!” I cannot believe the grammar errors that are being not only accepted but perpetuated, especially in the following examples: 1. it’s being used as the plural of it instead of the contraction of it is, 2. the apostrophe s used to show plural instead of posession, and 3. the use of the word “like”—e.g., “So I was talking with him and I’m like, ‘I don’t believe what you said’ and he’s like…” Bring back the “old school” grammar before we’ve raised a country full of mo-rons!

By crunk ho

July 28, 2006 12:06 PM | Link to this

I be lernin’ all dat i needs to kno frum hip hop. no wut im sayin’ da rappers be teachn bout da clubs and dey money and dey rimz on dey whips and dey hos. ise be speakin propah. not likes sum 1 tries to be white. ise be keppin it real. kno wut im sayin. dat be the crunkest part of da ATL. dis citiez be luvin da hip hop and reppin ATL is mad crunk. i be getin more noledge den ill ever need when dey be puttin out da new cds on tusday. i spended all my chedar on music to makes the ATL nomber 1 in hip hop. Reppin ATL til i die. Kno wut im sayin>

By CRUNK ATL

July 28, 2006 12:13 PM | Link to this

I BE LERNIN’ ALL DAT I NEEDS TO KNO FRUM HIP HOP. NO WUT IM SAYIN’ DA RAPPERS BE TEACHN BOUT DA CLUBS AND DA MONEY AND DA RIMZ ON DEY WHIPS AND DEY HOS. ISE BE SPEAKIN PROPAH. NOT LIKES SUM 1 TRIES TO BE WHITE. ISE BE KEPPIN IT REAL. KNO WUT IM SAYIN. DAT BE THE CRUNKEST PART OF DA ATL. DIS CITIEZ BE LUVIN DA HIP HOP AND REPPIN ATL IS MAD CRUNK. I BE GETIN MORE NOLEDGE DEN ILL EVER NEED WHEN DEY BE PUTTIN OUT DA NEW CDS ON TUSDAY. I SPENDED ALL MY CHEDAR ON MUSIC TO MAKES THE ATL NOMBER 1 IN HIP HOP. REPPIN ATL TIL I DIE. KNO WUT IM SAYIN>

By luvs2teach

July 28, 2006 04:22 PM | Link to this

Wow, Crunk - it was bad enough the first time without your “SHOUTING” it the second!

By Litmajor

July 28, 2006 04:52 PM | Link to this

How hard was it to type all of that nonsensical crap?

By John

July 31, 2006 11:10 AM | Link to this

“if I were” and “if I was” have the same meaning and both are perfectly comprehensible. Many native speakers say “if I was” and who are we to tell them that their understanding of their native language is wrong?

By luvs2teach

July 31, 2006 06:42 PM | Link to this

John, “perfectly comprehensible” does not mean it’s grammatically correct. “Ain’t” is perfectly comprehensible, too.

By m

August 1, 2006 09:04 PM | Link to this

I taught with a fellow teacher who constantly said “he done”. Is that Southern or just wrong?

By John

August 2, 2006 01:33 PM | Link to this

“grammatically correct” usually means “how some people think language should be used”.

I think its much more interesting and sensible to look at the facts of language usage, not at how some people think language should be used.

By John

August 2, 2006 01:34 PM | Link to this

“grammatically correct” usually means “how some people think language should be used”.

I think its much more interesting and sensible to look at the facts of language usage, not at how some people think language should be used.

By JoAnne

August 2, 2006 01:44 PM | Link to this

What really gets on my nerves is when I hear teachers and administrators say “on tomorrow”, or “on yesterday”. Is that “on” really needed? Another one is “mines” instead of “mine”. For God’s sake, learn your possessives! What kind of a role model is that for children? Here’s another one, “conversating” instead of conversing”. Talk about slaughtering the English language! Oh, and by the way, you are “certified” not “certificated”…go figure!

By SteveD.

August 2, 2006 03:27 PM | Link to this

Don’t “axe” me why I’m responding to this! No wonder Georgia is at the bottom in test scores, when I hear teachers and administrators use incorrect grammar, especially over the PA where all can hear your “ignance”!