Get Schooled

By catlady

July 20, 2006 11:06 AM | Link to this

I think silent is a bit much to shoot for, but I have no problem with whispers. Anything where the vocal chords move is too much, multiplied. The problem is it’s hard to enforce the whispers, so silent is easier.

By SNY

July 20, 2006 11:59 AM | Link to this

Patti,

I am not going to be a favorite again today. I love this free speech thing we have here in America!

Kids have to be kids. Kids talk that is the reality of the situation. We are expecting these kids to act like little adults. It makes no sense. I understand that other classes are in session, so definately a whisper is better. If you tell them what you expect of them the 1st day of school when it comes to this topic, and enforce is strictly in the beginning, you should have no problems with the whispering. They are going overboard, again!!!

By Velatra

July 20, 2006 12:11 PM | Link to this

I can understand silent transitions in elementary school, but I’m not so sure in the other grades. I can remember during my last two years of high school (‘88-‘90), we got a new principal who eradicated the 10 minute afternoon break we got before the last class of the day. He called himself adding 1 more minute to the 5-min. transition time. I felt like we were in a prison. So, we cannot take for granted that there are “other times” for socialization. Kids do need some sort of outlet.

By Competitive

July 20, 2006 12:47 PM | Link to this

For those of you who don’t understand the situation in public schools today, let me fill in some gaps that may help you understand the need for silent transition.

My junior high (7-9) in Tennessee had a bell schedule, meaning that every single student in the school changed classes at exactly the same time. Therefore, you did not disrupt others in class when you were talking in the hallway. When the class traveled the hallway during class time, we were expected to be silent and received punishments if we were not. Georgia’s middle schools have so many students, so little cafeteria space, and so little hallway space that it is impossible to create a true bell schedule for the school.

Also, the school was actually designed for the number of students who attended. Most schools in Georgia started as a certain size, then had an addition built, then another, and often another. Now schools that should have 500 kids are housing 2000 kids, but the hallways are still only wide enough for the original number of students. This leads to huge crowds in the hallways.

Most schools are turning to silent transition as a last resort to overcome these basic problems and the problem of students failing to understand their environment. At my junior high, teachers and administrators monitored the hallway for noise level and other problems even though we were allowed to talk. We ere allowed to TALK, not YELL. So many kids today do not understand the old “inside voice” that we were all taught as kids. Teachers and administrators still monitor the hallway, but kids today have no problem lying about their name, getting confrontational with any adult who kindly asks them to lower their voice, will run away when asked to stop, etc. There are 2 main reasons for this type of behavior: schools are so big that no one knows all of the students by name and the kids know that they can lie to their parents if they get in trouble and their parents will come to the school and get them out of any punishments.

As with any business, you don’t always get to make decisions in a perfect situation. Schools constantly have to make decisions that are the lesser of several evils. Silent transition is far less a punishment than it is a response to a lack of resources and student self-discipline. And it does improve student behavior: less fights, less down-time at the beginning of class, less time in the counselor’s office because some girl was talking to my boyfriend.

I challenge all you complainers out there to come up with a solution instead of always complaining about the solutions of others.

By jim d

July 20, 2006 01:01 PM | Link to this

Again Patti,

Other solutions to overcrowding are available, and school overcrowding is the issue we are broaching.

“Year Round Multi Track Scheduling” is but one of the solutions that I’d prefer over hearding silent students through the halls.

By SET

July 20, 2006 01:06 PM | Link to this

I don’t tell my dentist how to fix my teeth. If I ever thought I could get better results elsewhere I’d have another dentist. I don’t have time and training to second guess his techniques. I use him because I have it on good authority he’s one of the very best in town.

Let the school and it’s teachers do what they decide is required to get the results they promise with the kids. If there is a problem, it’s with your decision to put the kids there in the first place. Watch what happens and keep plan B ready.

By Here we go again...

July 20, 2006 01:07 PM | Link to this

Free speech IS NOT the freedom to say whatever you want whenever you want.

What ever happened to the concept of your rights ending where another’s begins?

We are turning into the Jerry Springer show…and I guess that’s our “right.”

By jim d

July 20, 2006 01:19 PM | Link to this

Here we go again,

IT IS the freedom to say whatever you want whenever you want.

But that same freedom afford others recourse for your statements.

By Here we go again

July 20, 2006 01:28 PM | Link to this

jim d - silly me! I thought our founding fathers wanted us to be able to criticize the policies of our government without fear or imprisonment. I didn’t realize it was the freedom to be boarish oafs.

But last I heard, you still can’t shout “fire” in a crowded theater, and terroristic threats might get you in some trouble.

Personally, I prefer the immortal words of Thumper, “If you can’t say somethin’ nice, don’t say nuthin’ at all.”

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

July 20, 2006 01:29 PM | Link to this

Screaming in the halls and talking loudly should be controlled. However, I think it’s ridiculous to expect children to remain silent at all times. We’re allowed to whisper in the library, so, I think school hallways fall into that category.

Patti,

I saw your blog topic about questions for school administrators, yesterday. I just received a call from the Principal at my daughters middle school. She actually responded to my email with a personal phone call. I think I’m going to love this woman. We have a 5PM meeting on August 7th to discuss my child personally and the things I can do as a professional to help out our middle school.

By abc

July 20, 2006 01:30 PM | Link to this

Jim D - if you think you can really say whatever you want whenever you want, go and yell “Fire!” in a crowded movie theater or say, “Bomb” in an airport!

By David

July 20, 2006 01:31 PM | Link to this

I taught at a high school last year that was five years old. It had been built to house 1400 and had 2400 students. The halls were packed and loud between classess and there were always fights. I personally broke up one in which the Sheriff was called. Kids routinelly ran away from you when you called them and would become hostile anytime you tried to correct them. The school had thirty-five trailers with no plans to change. The county was too busy building three new schools across the county. What we need is more money to build buildings. We also need more teachers if we are going to consider longer school year or a longer school day. The kids should be able to visit between classes but under the current environment it just doesn’t work.

By wwww

July 20, 2006 01:55 PM | Link to this

Oh my goodness. Now we are bringing in the first amendment to address disruptive students in the hallways?
Give me a break.
SOME students can handle talking in the halls between classes, MOST cannot. That means schools need to do what is necessary to control disruptive students. Those of you who feel that it’s asking too much for students to remain quiet in the hallways while other classes are going on need to get a grip. I’m all for social time at school. I teach middle school and there isn’t a time other than lunch to talk. I think they need a break during the day, but what I think isn’t important when you start talking about ways to increase test scores for NCLB. The first thing that goes is that “social time”. What happens then is students don’t get so much time to talk at school as we did back in the day.
You know what? It can’t be helped. We have to be able to conduct class without unnecessary interruptions from very loud students in the hall. We are held accountable for this. Many of you will be the first to point out “Why are my school’s scores lower than so and so’s”? So please, save your first amendment arguments for REAL infringment cases. This is not one of them.

By jim d

July 20, 2006 02:03 PM | Link to this

OH but it can be helped.

TRASH NCLB!

By jim d

July 20, 2006 02:05 PM | Link to this

ABC,

In a free country I CAN do that.

Of course paying the consequence of doing so is also my right.

By luvs2teach

July 20, 2006 02:08 PM | Link to this

wwww - in all my reminiscing of the “good old days” I don’t recal being given NEARLY as much time to talk as my kids are today.

Just one woman’s experience though.

By luvs2teach

July 20, 2006 02:12 PM | Link to this

Food for thought - did you know that according to Dr. Ruby Payne’s poverty research, people from generational poverty tend to be LOUDER. They just are. They don’t learn how to be quiet unless we teach and model it for them - like the earlier posted said, just watch an episode of Jerry Springer.

By wwww

July 20, 2006 02:12 PM | Link to this

jim d:

Yeah, can you take care of that for us? The last I checked, the mastermind of NCLB was reelected to a second term.

Whether we like it or not, and believe me, I don’t, NCLB is here to stay. We have to make the best of a frankly crappy situation. NCLB and common sense don’t mix too well. In order to do that, certain things have to go by the wayside.

Talking/not talking in the hallways at school is the least of our problems. Music, art, home ec, woodshop, vo tech, etc. are slowly leaving our schools. Classrooms are losing the creative spark I remember so well from school. Discipline is a total joke. What’s more, schools that truly need all of the above lose it the fastest as they cut everything to focus on reading and math to raise those precious scores so they can get the funding. THOSE are things that should raise EVERYONE’S ire. Yet here we are, discussing the validity of talking in the hallways. Please.

By luvs2teach

July 20, 2006 02:15 PM | Link to this

Jim d - that’s the problem - most people don’t understand that there is a consequence sometimes. They truly believe, because of a misguided interpretation of “free speech” that it is their right WITHOUT consequence to say what they want.

I blame the social studies teachers…

(only kidding guys)

By wwww

July 20, 2006 02:16 PM | Link to this

luvs2teach:

I’m sure as with most things I remember better than it was! I do know we got a 10 min break at some point in the late morning.

By luvs2teach

July 20, 2006 02:24 PM | Link to this

wwww - we had recess in elementary, and we had half hour lunch in middle school - we could go out after we ate and chat with our friends - we had 4 minute class changes. We did almost no group work though - I rarely remember talking in class.

High school was glorious - we had a full period for lunch, and could leae campus if we wanted when we were juniors and seniors.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

July 20, 2006 02:28 PM | Link to this

I dream of a perfect school:

An excellent student comes to school everyday and is never tardy. An excellent student never forgets or leaves his/her homework at home. An excellent student NEVER make-up excuses, pick fights, pull hair, use cell phones, throw erasers, use bad language, runs nor talks in the hallway, say mean things, push or shove, wear baggy clothes or pierce their eyebrows. An excellent student has excellent parents. An excellent parent helps out at school, never forgets their kids lunch money, signs their child homework folder, attends parent/teacher conferences, joins the PTA, buys all necessary supplies, sends in treats and money for teacher appreciation. An excellent school has excellent teachers. An excellent teacher uses time wisely, stays late sometimes to help student, provides meaningful way for parents to communicate with him/her, knows when students aren’t getting the information, shows compassion for students, treats students equally, covers the material thoroughly and goes the extra mile to challenge his/her students. An excellent teacher doesn’t waste time complaining about what a parent has or has not done, but focus on the student at hand. An excellent teacher will challenge his/her administrators when material is not adequately available to his/her students. An excellent teacher will follow through to make sure that his/her students are not faced with testing material that has not been adequately covered in class. An excellent teacher knows how to get through to all students (high & low achievers). An excellent teacher has an excellent school system. An excellent school system has enough teachers, school buildings, books, chairs, desk and an excellent library. An excellent school system has excellent administrators. An excellent school system listens to its students, parents, teachers and administrators.

Share my dream.

By SNY

July 20, 2006 03:09 PM | Link to this

wwwww and luvs,

I graduated in 1992 and I remember having recess in the morning, after eating lunch, and in the afternoon in elementary school.

In middle school, we had a whole period for lunch and 3-4 minutes to change classes.

In high school, it was the same as middle school except that juniors and seniors could leave campus for lunch as well.

I took home ec., music, art, business co-op, and french. What I wouldn’t do for my child to have those same type of wonderful experiences in school. But, we had great teachers in Virginia. We never heard of any teacher acting the way the teachers here act. Maybe it is everywhere now, but our teachers got their point across without all of these rules and zero-tolerance policies.

By SET

July 20, 2006 03:09 PM | Link to this

Sorry Amazed, I live in the real world.

By Velatra

July 20, 2006 03:25 PM | Link to this

Gee, MLK, I mean, Amazed:

I could share your dream if you added excellent parents who train their children to respect and obey ALL adults (teachers, custodians, lunchroom workers, etc.) and teach them that there are consequences for one’s actions. A “dream” parent would also support the consequences the teacher and/or administrator doles if the student breaks the rules.

Dang, I just woke up.

By jim d

July 20, 2006 03:25 PM | Link to this

Geez, all you youngsters are making me feel my age.

Elementary school—a one room school house k-12 which consolidated as I entered 7th grade.

Middle school? didn’t exist we had Jr. High for grades 7-8 had the same schedule as High School—Oh yeah!! it was in the same building

High school If you had a drivers license you could drive and park on campus. 6 periods that included at least one study hall, 1 hr., reduced to 45 minutes my senior year, for lunch and open campus, 3 minutes between classes.

Screwed up and you caught a paddle while leaning forward across the teachers desk.

My but life was so much simpler back then.

By SNY

July 20, 2006 03:39 PM | Link to this

Jim d.,

Whatever, you heard about those stories from your parents or grandparents. You probably aren’t even nearly that old. You are so funny!! :)

By jim d

July 20, 2006 03:42 PM | Link to this

SNY,

INDEED I am that old, but thank’s sweetheart.

By jim d

July 20, 2006 03:51 PM | Link to this

SNY,

Truly I believe I’m closer to the age of parents of most of the posters on this blog. I actually have a grandaughter two years older than my youngest child, and he’s a rising Jr.

By SNY

July 20, 2006 04:00 PM | Link to this

Jim d.,

Well, it’s amazing. We are from two different generations and I agree with most of what you say. Does that make me old or you extra young? I say it makes you extra young!! :)

By jim d

July 20, 2006 04:09 PM | Link to this

Well SNY,

I’d say having a child later in life is what has kept me young.

By Velatra

July 20, 2006 04:10 PM | Link to this

Gosh, jim d.

I didn’t go to a one-room school, but I did go to a Jr. High instead of a middle school. Wait, yes, I did—but our “middle school” was only one grade (7th) and was adjoined to the jr. high school (8th-9th grades). High school was 10-12th grades. Got my last paddlin’ in 8th grade by my cheerleader coach (can you believe that?) So, I know a little somethin’ about what you’re talking about. Of course now, I lived in a small Central Georgia town.

During the 7-9th grades at either school, we transitioned with no problems. No, it wasn’t silent or rowdy. But, that was in the mid 80’s when Izod shirts, Jordache jeans, parachute pants, studded belts, and neon sweatshirts were in style. There were no sagging pants, navel-baring shirts, or t-shirts five sizes too big.

By chooselife

July 20, 2006 04:12 PM | Link to this

My of my… Ok we take prayer out of the school and now we are tying to take communication out as well!!! What is the world coming to. Had prayer never been taken out of the school we would NOT have all the issues we are dealing with now. For a school that prays together stays together! I think there should be a level of noise control yes, but to try and punish the kids for not being completely silent is a bit much. “FREEDOM OF SPEECH” OR WAS THAT TAKEN OUT AS WELL?

By jim d

July 20, 2006 04:28 PM | Link to this

Dear chooselife,

GETALIFE.

I’ve explained it all before on these blogs. PRAYER has NEVER been taken out of school.

STATE LED PRAYER has been banned but students can pray whenever, they just aren’t allowed to disrupt. Please take the trash you’re peddling elsewhere.

By luvs2teach

July 20, 2006 04:34 PM | Link to this

Some of you are acting like this silent transition is much worse than it really is - I don’t know the school in question, but I’m guessing it’s one of the newer, pod-type middle schools where class changes are minimal anyway.

Those of you so upset don’t seem to pay attention to the fact that there is much more conversation going on IN the classrooms than out if a teacher’s using cooperative learning.

My school is a former junior high so we have a passing time during which the kids can go to their lockers as well as talk. I’m a science teacher so we have some sort of group activity virtually everyday. I like to take a few minutes when possible at the start of each class to chat for a few minutes about whatever is going on in the school or in the world - gives the kids a good opportunity to discuss. We get in A LOT of discussions concerning fairness of rules (such is the nature of the middle school child) and the kids seem to enjoy that. I also like being able to chat with them as they work in groups (and chat with each other).

ChooseLife - please read the early comments on free speech - this isn’t an issue of free speech - it’s an issue of following the rules and demonstrating appropriate behavior.

Now, all of you so set against this - let’s say your child came home with a bad score on a test. When questioned the child tells you that they had a hard time paying attention because the hallway was so noisy with kids coming and going to lunch. Raise your hand if you would be putting in a call to the principal to see what could be done about the noise and those children that disrupted your child’s education!

I’m not necessarily for this, BTW, however some of you out there arguing have no idea what its’ like in some of our schools today. Don’t assume that other parents raise their children as well as you do do, and don’t assume that the teacher will be able to control every misbehavior (without back-up at home, that’s a sad given).

If you don’t think it’s possible for one bad event to create rules that “punish” everyone, then you haven’t flown in the US since 9/11/01.

By jim d

July 20, 2006 04:39 PM | Link to this

L2T

What gets me is the refusal of the “establishment” to consider other viable solutions.

By SET

July 20, 2006 04:48 PM | Link to this

Chooselife: I’ve been to church schools both primary school and college. I enjoyed watching the religious get off on their raptures. When things got boring we could always set them off and enjoy the floor show.

Public schools are no place for the practice of mythology. When you put state sanctioned mythology in the public schools you will lose control of your mythology. When the government gets through you will all wind up praying to Zeus, or Allah.

Keep your mythology in your homes and your churches if you want to keep it yours.

And keep it away from me.

By Thomas

July 20, 2006 05:04 PM | Link to this

You guys will have to forgive me—

I am an experienced educator who loves teaching and working kids. Again this is another sad discussion. You have people debating on whether or not children should be allowed to talk in the hallway. This, just like the restroom issue, is a result of break down of respect and authority in schools. Schools have no talking rules to prevent the PANDEMONIUM AND CHAOS that would result without those rules in place.

To be honest I agree with the no talking rule. In a regular school, you couldn’t have a class of 30 kids walking and talking without disruption to an entire hallway. I worked in a school where you could hear a pin drop when a class moved down the hallway. That’s the way it should be. I get distracted when I hear noise and chaos in the hallway (I ALWAYS KEEP MY DOOR CLOSED-now you know why).

By SET

July 20, 2006 05:11 PM | Link to this

Thomas:

My primary and secondary schools were relatively quiet. Probably because anyone that called attention to themselves got attention from the Teachers and administration. Quickly.

Students nowadays don’t seem to be confronted on anything from their dress, grammar, grades, attendence, deportment in general. I guess the teachers are the ones that want to stay out of trouble.

Brave New World.

By J

July 20, 2006 05:26 PM | Link to this

Being a fellow teacher I understand both sides. True enough kids will be kids, however, we all have rules we have to abide by. With the overcrowdness in the schools, teachers and administrators have to come up with ways to keep chaos out of the halls. I have seen when kids are allowed to talk and when they have to remain quiet. When they are talking in the hallways, you have to deal with the horseplaying or worse. It is the teachers that are in charge of the students while their parents are at work. There are plenty of times throughout the day that kids are able to socialize. By having them remain quiet in the hallways, we are teaching them about courtesy and respect.

By Counting the days

July 20, 2006 05:26 PM | Link to this

SET, you are very accurate in your assessment that teachers don’t confront students about their dress, grammar, grades, attendance, and deportment because we get screamed at by out of control parents who threaten to sue us or have us fired if we attempt to actually teach little Johnny anything.

It’s a sad, sad world when the inmates are in charge of the institution…and their parents are slipping in the cakes containing the files.

By frank123

July 20, 2006 05:28 PM | Link to this

I agree with SET and HERE WE GO AGAIN. The kids should be quiet during transition. Let the schools decide. The kids need to learn control and when not to talk. There is no free speech right talk everywhere and distract others.

By luvs2teach

July 20, 2006 05:30 PM | Link to this

jim d - I agree - it’s sad. The schools are too big and too impersonal - kids might care more about disrupting a class if they actually knew the teacher or some of the kids in there. I know your solution to that problem - and I’m not against it, but have fun trying to convince the “Georgians Need Summers” group.

The whole middle school movement was an attempt to make schools more personal and more responsive to the “particular needs of the middle school child” but they haven’t been implemented well or even as intended.

Even though I understand the perceived need for this in some schools (see the poverty comment above) I got to wonder if we couldn’t do something different - like teach them how to behave in certain settings - church and school behavior is different than Six Flags behavior. Of course, while we’re teaching them this, we are not teaching them the necessary skills for the CRCT.

And round and round we go…silently, of course.

By Counting the days

July 20, 2006 05:46 PM | Link to this

L2T….exactly! Students should be taught how to behave in certain settings…and it is a lesson that should be reinforced by every single adult in their lives, not just their teachers. Some of my students will be sitting in class within 2 feet of another and will be talking so loudly to each other that it’s almost like they are having to yell across the river to each other.

I personally think their hearing is shot from walking around with those dang MP3 and CD players all the time.

Has anyone else noticed the correlation of anti-social behaviour and students who listen to their portable music devices?

By SET

July 20, 2006 05:47 PM | Link to this

Our school districts have their own police departments. If they had the leadership they need, there would be no problem proctoring behavior of parents in teacher conferences.

Give me a contract and I’d do the job as a school super.. It would be a lot of fun to see these Bozos confronted by somebody who is neither white nor a liberal, doesn’t care about being politically correct and doesn’t need the job anyway.

Problem is that the schools now are addicted to the ADA money. They won’t do anything to clear out the loser kids and they’ll back them over the teachers to keep the $ flowing.

Still we should create at least one good school at each level and transfer in the good or bad students to achieve segregation of the losers. Like San Francisco’s Lowell High School. Such a school would be racially non-diverse and that sets off more whining (In SF the Chinese swooped in after racial set asides (Chinese Caps) ended.)

I’d prefer to deal with the personnel and discipline and teacher support issues rather than the financial but the subjects are probably intertwined.

Anyway, I like what I’m doing..

By teach overseas

July 20, 2006 05:52 PM | Link to this

This is a no win situation for schools and teachers:

If teachers prevent students from talking, and walk them to and from their classes, STRICTLY enforing the rule, we would safe and orderly halls. And complaining parents.

If teacher open their doors and allow students to walk to their next class with little or no supervision, we will have disturbed classes, pushing, shoving, indimidation and fights in the hallways. And complaining parents.

SNY- you can go on all you want about freedom of speech and kids being kids, but don’t tell me that if some other kid in a noisy, crowded hall even looked cross-eyed at your precious, you wouldn’t be the first one screaming in the teachers/admins face about the lack of safety in the school.

By SET

July 20, 2006 05:55 PM | Link to this

By luvs2teach:

If my child gave me that line of nonsense that she failed a test that most of the class passed because she was distracted (and the rest of them presumably weren’t) I’d tell her to buy herself some earmuffs when she got off being grounded and try harder next time.

And no, I would not bother the teacher with a stupid story like this but might ask her (most teachers are women) what the class grade distribution was on that assignment. Then I’d tell my kid that if she’s at the bottom of her class she won’t be needing her toys and her money and she will be taking the class over in summer school.

And I’d pay a bounty for A’s - it’s a family tradition.

My kids are not objects of pity. Especially the girls. We have a long line of scheming ruthless women in this family (on the father’s side) and if you give them an inch they’ll take your car keys and your credit cards.

You just have to approach the kids in a positive manner.

By Velatra

July 20, 2006 06:02 PM | Link to this

SET,

No, I won’t be praying to Allah or any other but my Savior, Jesus Christ. According to the Bible, at some point, you will, too.

By luvs2teach

July 20, 2006 06:02 PM | Link to this

LOL, Counting…so true, so true. The one that annoys me is the kids who think because they”don’t know you” they don’t need to listen to you. It got so bad with our seventh graders that when 8th grade had to cover a seventh grade class (FYI -covering is when regular teachers “sub” during their planning) we would go in twos.

“You don’t know me”

No, I don’t. And with an attitude like that, I don’t really want to!

I think you’re right with the trend towards anti-social behavior and the link to CDs and MP3s. What we have done with entertainment is a microcosm of our society - it has become both more personlized and impersonal. I listen to a CD that I burned of songs I myself like - I don’t share my thoughts on so-and-so’s latest with others becasue none of us own it. There is no more sharing of common pop culture - TV is more divided into every sub-demographic possible. We don’t go to movies for a shared experience - we watch DVDs at home, talking when we want, pausing if need be.

You see this same anti-social behavior in road rage, and the feeling of anonymity that we feel in our cars (you see it with nose-pickers, too).

You even see it on this and other blogs - under the anonymity of the blog we say things to each other that we probably would say in person - and some are quite rude!

By SET

July 20, 2006 06:13 PM | Link to this

Velatra: Spoken like a true Church Lady. Thanks for the revelation. I understand you perfectly.

By luvs2teach

July 20, 2006 06:17 PM | Link to this

SET - I just used that example to illustrate how everyone wants it both ways and neither way will make everyone happy. It’s a lose-lose situation.

I think it was the AJC, but it may have been another site, had an interesting commentary on “Snakes on a Plane” - you know, that crazy Samuel L. Jackson movie about - you guessed it - snakes on a plane. It got a hugely weird following online - all word of mouth. The producers actually went back and changed some of the stuff in the movie based on online comments.

The gist of the commentary is that you can’t make everyone happy by trying to give them what they want - because we don’t know what we want. Or we think we do until we get it - the old adage, “Be careful what you wish for…”

By luvs2teach

July 20, 2006 06:19 PM | Link to this

Oops - NEVER say in person (and multiple typos to boot).

I may “luv 2 teach” but I “hate 2 type”

By Gwinnett Teacher

July 20, 2006 06:24 PM | Link to this

SET - do/did your children attend public schools or private schools?

By Grandma

July 20, 2006 06:31 PM | Link to this

Regarless of freedom of speech, there are also places that rules which limit speech. This is not infringing on your right to free speech. You people take an idea and try to run with it until you run it into the ground…just like yelling “racism” at the drop of a hat. There ARE limits.

By Grandma

July 20, 2006 06:39 PM | Link to this

A teacher actually used the “overcrowdedness” as a word? I only have to assume that you teach/taught in a Georgia school.

By Deb

July 20, 2006 06:39 PM | Link to this

And we wonder why kids act up so much? The fact of the matter is this: Teachers talked in the halls when they were in school too. I know because I’m a teacher myself. Stop being so hypocritical!

By Janine

July 20, 2006 06:52 PM | Link to this

Well, Patti….I could agree with the teacher you quoted if what she said in her last line were true….But , at least in the Middle Schools I know of, There is no time alotted for any type of socializing.

By MBW

July 20, 2006 06:57 PM | Link to this

As a middle school teacher, I can firmly attest to the need for orderly transitions in the hallways.

Whether silent or not, transitions should be orderly and well-enforced. The transitions are the sources of most of the behavior disruptions during the day. Students socialize, sneak off, horseplay or fight if the transitions are not strictly monitored and enforced…particularly in middle school.

That having been said, I am also in favor of some type of “recess” for middle school kids. They need the chance to blow off energy, to socialize and play. But class transition time is NOT the time for that. Teachers cannot be monitoring the hallways AND be in the classroom ready to receive students simulatneously. Likewise, students should be focused and calm when entering the classroom.

By SET

July 20, 2006 06:57 PM | Link to this

My entire generation went to public schools. The entire generation under me including the cousin’s kids - go to private schools.

My parent’s generation including aunts and uncles went to segregated public schools back east. My parent’s generation came to California during the black migration 1945 and on. My Grandparents reluctantly came to California in the early 1960s when there was nobody left in St Louis.

The Grandparents never did like this place. They missed (I believe) the black society they’d known “back east”. And I’m not talking about people in diamonds either, I mean the restaurants, the shoe repair, the barbershops, the residential neighborhoods and the black schools, etc. The older generation felt isolated and had to drive cars all the time to see anyone.

Upon arrival everybody eventually wound up with white neighborhoods and schools. They liked the views so they bought in the hills, using jewish lawyers as strawmen. They came in handy a lot over the years until we grew our own lawyers.

My generation never knew any difference. We were signed up in Jack and Jill and integrated schools. The women joined the Links and I don’t know what the men did in the 1960s. They had some ways of hanging out with each other across a large territory.

My generation is split in waves 10 years apart. The younger cousins are in Software and Banking and corporate jobs our grandparents couldn’t even understand. The older cousins in medicine, law and government. Their young cousins’ jobs send them around the country and around the world. Their children are allergic to public schools. Actually the derisive tone some of our younger kids use to describe the public schools and their students bothers me. Not sure why. My generation tends to live in the Urban areas rather than the exclusive supperrich suburbs with all-white & asian schools. CA real estate is very expensive.

For several generations my extended family were teachers in black public schools and colleges. None of us teach anymore.

As to that comment about what I’d tell my kid if I got a sob story about failing because the teacher didn’t keep the room quiet - excuses for failure make things worse in this family. We don’t want to hear it. I would never have tried a story like that to my parents and If I did I’d get the response I mentioned. My father was a college science instructor at a HBC once and my mother was a Social Worker in CA once. They didn’t do excuses well.

If Patti really wants to have some fun she can start a blog about interracial dating issues… We’d have some good stories there.

By SET

July 20, 2006 07:00 PM | Link to this

Deb:

You know that between MySpace, Email and all the text messaging the kids talk to each other more than we ever did.

By LB

July 21, 2006 08:33 AM | Link to this

Yes and no on silence in the hall.

Yes, if there is a recess of at least 10 minutes at another time of day and at least 30 minutes for lunch plus additional staff in the hall to enforce it.

No, if there is only 3 minutes between classes, no recesses and only 20 minutes for lunch and no additional supervision in the halls.

Another point to ponder: In sports, band, PE, Art and chorus a lot of disipline must be used in order to maintain great teams. These classes/activities need undivided attention from the students in order to achieve. The silence in the halls barely scratches the surface if kids are going to be hard to control in the elective classes.

By EKH

July 21, 2006 09:20 AM | Link to this

I believe in a quite hallway. I tell my class that I want to hear the clicking of my heels in the hallway. If they can’t hear my shoes, then their voices are too loud. Boy do they hate the days I wear sneakers.

What I hate to see more than anything is when teachers take away “specials” and recess because kids aren’t focused in the classroom. I hear the phrase “you owe me the wasted time back” a lot. If I kid doesn’t finish their work, send it home!! Or deal with the problem during the class period. A kid may have trouble focusing because they need to take a break and play/socialize outside. They may need more creative time in art or music. It is really important for kids to have unstructured social time during the day. They need to develop strong friendships and learn how to navigate the dynamics of a group. If we want to limit kids social interactions we should just send them all home to be homeschooled.

By SNY

July 21, 2006 09:30 AM | Link to this

I love EKH. What county do you teach in?

By Todd

July 21, 2006 09:46 AM | Link to this

“Kids will be kids,” huh? Yeah, someone hasn’t been in school in a few years. Someone hasn’t heard “Code Z, code Z, teachers shut and lock your doors; teachers shut and lock your doors” broadcast over the intercom. Someone hasn’t been in the public educational system where they alert the students: “Good afternoon, students. The time is 2:45 and you must now leave campus or you will be arrested.”

Time have changed.If the environment warrants it, where kids are bringing weapons to school, standing up and cussing the teacher out, assaulting school personnel, rules must be implemented. In the city environment, this is no Beverly Hills 90210.

By WFC

July 21, 2006 10:18 AM | Link to this

The Middle School concept is similar to Communism: a noble idea that has failed miserably.

By teacher/parent

July 21, 2006 12:04 PM | Link to this

WFC you are right, middle schools need to be eliminated, bring back K-8 and 9-12.

RE: talking in the hall. As long as ALL classes are transitioning at the same time, talking quietly is not a problem. If classes are still in session then the hall has to be quiet. This usually means elementary schools will have quiet halls and middle schools and high schools, with trips to lockers and such, will be a place where students will be able to talk.

My elementary students don’t mind being quiet in the hall. These are fast transitions and don’t really allow for much time to talk anyway. The also love it when other teachers tell me how well behaved they are. This is not the major punishment or restriction some are trying to make it out to be.

By Shar

July 21, 2006 02:06 PM | Link to this

My daughter just graduated from an intown public middle school. Her grade was constantly being punished with such strictures as no bathroom or locker breaks and silent lunch, with required alphabetical seating, due to discipline problems. However, the problems stemmed from about 30% of the students, who reflected all of the negative behaviors posted above - fighting, yelling, using prohibited cell phones and IPods, stealing, flunking, dressing inappropriately, and on and on. Another 30% of the class were ‘followers’, knowing better than to do these things but sometimes being pulled into poor behavior. The remaining 40% were well-behaved (OK, for teenagers), respectful and ready to learn. For that 40%, being punished for actions that they were not involved in, and which in fact interferred with their own ability to learn, was offensive and counter-productive. If they were going to be punished for talking, they might as well talk and earn the punishment! I realize that supporting seperate rules for students is difficult, but allowing priviledges such as whispering during transition or socializing at lunch to students who model behavior that is desirable reinforces that behavior and encourages the ‘followers’ to eschew bad behavior for good. By the end of the year even the well-behaved kids were extremely disaffected, feeling disrespected and discouraged as well as resentful at the inflexibility of the administration. Surely avoiding those feelings, and rewarding good behavior, is worth the complexity of different standards for different students. Beside, if you seperate students on the basis of behavior, you can concentrate on teaching the respect and manners that other posters say those children need to learn.

By Recently Retired Teacher

July 21, 2006 06:29 PM | Link to this

The problem does lie in the fact that so many students cannot talk in a normal voice while walking in the halls with friends. They are so intent on getting the attention of their peers that hall conversations quickly turn into shouting matches that are extremely disruptive to classes in session. There is nothing wrong with teaching today’s kids self-control by letting them know that there are different voices that are appropriate for a variety of places and situations. Rudeness does matter. Sometimes silence is the appropriate voice and can be used to teach the valuable skill of self-discipline.

By SET

July 24, 2006 10:30 AM | Link to this

Shar:

Your comment reminds me of my earlier post about my co-worker who banks at a ghetto bank branch (rather than an upscale community bank) and wonders why she is having discourtesies.

If you send your kid to a school that has a critical number of ghetto kids, say 15%, you have to expect jail conditions - or the law of the jungle.

Since you can’t change the underclass or the defensive reaction to the presence of the underclass what you can change is your family’s presence. Get you kid into better schools with better students.

By luvs2teach

July 24, 2006 05:18 PM | Link to this

As Patti says, “Cross-blogination alert!”

For those of you out there who can’t believe that schools might have to enforce a silent transition, you need to go to MOMania and read the topic of “Intolerant Adults” - basically the gist is that adults need to get over the “natural and beautiful” noise made by children in public - to complain makes you a child-hater.

As SET says, “brave new world.”

By momof3

July 25, 2006 12:20 PM | Link to this

Of all the schools he’s been to, my middle-schooler hasn’t attended intercity schools, schools with significant disciplinary problems, schools with large poverty-line populations or particularly ethnic demographics, or schools that were so over-crowded they couldn’t count the pupils. Despite that, recess in elementary school (when granted at all) was ironically taken away in a heartbeat for “too much talking” or “not sitting still,” silent lunches in both elem. and middle school were given for every offense under the sun (the consequence often not fitting the crime), silent transitions were the norm, in middle school he wasn’t allowed to move across the lunchroom to sit with his friends (in another class) and at 12 was only one of two boys in his class of 16. Before school, they were limited how early they could arrive and weren’t allowed to hang out in the halls. After school, they were released in shifts and herded straight to buses or off campus. In short, he wasn’t allowed to socialize during class (of course), between classes, at lunch, or before or after school. When, pray tell, was it supposed to occur?

You can tell me school is for learning, not socialization…but then you’ll have to explain to me why we are so quick to give homeschoolers a hard time about socialization.

I thought we were far beyond children being seen and not heard.

In a school where children must fear for their lives, silent lunches and transitions are one thing. It should be the limited exception to an exceptionally difficult problem, not the rule with which we mentally beat our children into submission regardless of the reality of the environment.

What are we really teaching them with these tactics?

By luvs2teach

July 25, 2006 08:32 PM | Link to this

momof3 - I understand your concern, but I want you to first think back to your elementary days - didn’t you walk quietly to lunch, music, art, PE, and the library? I know I did (1970 - 1977). I don’t think that’s unusual. I do remember kids getting both silent lunch or losing some recess time for acting up - I also remember kids getting spanked in the front of the class, which to me was far worse (and humiliating enough to keep me in line - I lived in fear of that) or being sent to the principal for the dreaded “paddle.”

I do think kids need recess and socializing time at lunch, but chances are, if they lost those privileges, it was after one or more warnings.

Now think back to your middle/junior high experience - mine was a 7-8-9 junior high, and I attended from ‘77 - ‘80. We had four minute class changes and a half hour lunch period. We were not escorted to lunch; we had a bell marking the end of the period and time to return to class. We could sit with our friends and even go outside for a little while after we were done. WE still needed to be silent if we were going to the media center or auditorium for an assembly. We still had the dreaded paddle, but we also had an enforcable detention - we had a late bus that would take you home from after school activities as well as detention.

It’s so different now - you son couldn’t eat with his friend because there is no single lunch period that a grade level shares - each teacher has a lunch time, just like elementary. Can you imagine trying to round up a class of 28 from the cafeteria? Good luck with that. We give silent lunch because we have virtually nothing else for minor offenses - detention is a joke because parents have to bring their kids to school early or pick them up late, and all too often that’s impossible or simply inconvenient. For kids who die to socialize, silent lunch is one of the few effective deterrents.

You can’t arrive early or stay late because we are so sue-happy in this country - it is a liability for the students to be in the building unsupervised, therefore it is against the rules. We brought that on ourselves.

Schools aren’t for socialization per se - it is a side effect of working in groups and learning to tolerate and get along with others who are different from you. Personally, I think most homeschoolers can get all the socialization they need from neighborhood friends, church groups, Scouts, and sports. They don’t need school for that - you probably don’t want them socializing with some kids anyway. I tell parents who want to try homeschooling to go for it - I wish them the best of luck. Some kids don’t fit into the one-size-fits-all mold required to operate a large school in a somewhat effective manner.