Get Schooled

By busymom

July 19, 2006 01:59 PM | Link to this

OK..Here’s my question. What can you do to prepare your child for kindergarten? Parents in my neighborhood have sent their kids to Score! and gotten every book at School Box and I was wondering should I go the same route. The parents in my neighborhood are very competitive. This summer we have gone to the museum and I read to my twin boys everyday, but most of the time they are coloring, painting, going to the pool and riding their bikes. I want them to be prepare for kindergarten but I want to them to enjoy their summer before homework,schedule and such.

By Patti Ghezzi

July 19, 2006 02:07 PM | Link to this

Busymom, that’s EXACTLY the type of question we’re looking for! Thanks!

By SNY

July 19, 2006 02:11 PM | Link to this

busymom,

Trust me, your twins will be fine. Don’t try to make them keep up with your neighbors kids. All kids are different and will learn at their own pace in their own time. You will see that your own twins will pick things up at different times.

By Ernest

July 19, 2006 02:21 PM | Link to this

I would think parents would want insight to the overall facilities in their school system, i.e. building capacity, current student population, currently number of trailers, etc. I believe most of us will acknowledge being in a trailer should not have an impact on learning, assuming you have a qualified teacher, but I’m not sure if we’ve studied the impact exposure to the elements has on attendance, both for staff and students. This also goes back to your question regarding lunch time for various schools. I would think most school systems has this information on their website.

Along the same line, it would be helpful if the article provided websites, starting from GA DOE down to school systems. It’s easy for most school systems since the format of the URL is the same with the exception of the county/district. This would also enable parents to drill down to individual schools and possible teachers.

By Litmajor

July 19, 2006 02:30 PM | Link to this

I have one-

How can I make sure that my daughter won’t be ignored while the teacher is focusing on the other students in her (kindergarten) class who aren’t as advanced as she is?

I worry that since she already “gets it” she and those like her in class will be left on the sideline while the teacher is busy helping the other kids play catch up.

By Tina

July 19, 2006 02:31 PM | Link to this

I agree with Ernest. There is so much that is either grade or school-specific that can’t be answered with a generalization. For example, the question about not getting outside time - different schools handle it in different ways. Actually I thought ALL elementary schools are supposed to include some recess time. Most high and middle schools have a dress code that addresses the pants hanging down issue, it’s just up to the individual school to enforce it.

By sue

July 19, 2006 02:57 PM | Link to this

Here’s a question:
Why does my son’s middle school think that adolescents need to walk quietly while in the hallway? Don’t they realize that the kids can walk and talk at the same time? An 11, 12,or 13-year old can make it to their next class while socializing with their friends.

The new principal sent home a notice at the end of the school year, excitedly announcing the introduction of “silent transition.”

By SNY

July 19, 2006 03:03 PM | Link to this

Sue,

Your new principal is an IDIOT!! Can you imagine how much trouble and grief this is going to cause students and parents?!

By Chris

July 19, 2006 03:04 PM | Link to this

My kid is a rising 5th grader with a learning disability and trouble with reading comprehension. I am trying to figure out what middle school environment will be best for him. I have already decided to visit middle schools this year to get ready. What should I look for?

By Janine

July 19, 2006 03:11 PM | Link to this

For Patti’s questions about such early lunches and outside time..and for Sue’s question about “silent transition”….If you do ot feel that the administrator at your child’s school is handling those things well [AND BELIEVE ME, THERE ARE SOME REALLY INCOMPETENT ADMISTRATORS OUT THERE] be the proverbial “squeaking door” and keep at the administration to make changes. [It would be helpful, though not totally necessary , if you could enlist the help of other parents]. If your complaints to the school administration don’t work, go up the food chain in your district. It has been my experience that the educrats at the county offices are very responsive to parents complaints about the things you mentioned.

By catlady

July 19, 2006 03:12 PM | Link to this

Sue, if you are talking about walking quietly during the change in classes, the reason for quiet is probably to avoid the “he say/she say” that escalates into shoving, escalation of talking into yelling, and fights. If you are talking about walking quietly back from lunch, etc, it is because classes are going on all around, and the noise from the hallway is very distracting to many students. As a parent, if you have just one or two or three children walking down the hall, it is hard to imagine 30 or 400 doing it. Visit around a bit and see schools who are more liberal about hall behavior (not on purpose, they just lost control) and see if you understand better. It is important to reinforce to students that their wishes and desires (talking freely with friends) cannot supersede the need for others to have a safe, orderly, learning environment.

By Lola

July 19, 2006 03:12 PM | Link to this

My daughter has been in a Montessori school and pre-k since she was six weeks old, and already has far more than the basic knowledge she needs to start kindgergarden. Are there any tests that kids can take prior to starting kindgergarden to ensure she’s put into a class or teaching environment that keeps her challenged? Are there even any classes offered for advanced kindergardeners?

By sue

July 19, 2006 03:12 PM | Link to this

Thank you, SNY. I think so, too.

By Lola

July 19, 2006 03:13 PM | Link to this

Forgot to add this to my post: She’s starting at Shallowford Falls Elementary, if that makes a difference

By Janine

July 19, 2006 03:17 PM | Link to this

One more thing Sue…WHile middle school teachers are given extensive training in the nature of the adolescent, the principals that I have had behave as if they had NONE! THey think that a quiet atmosphere means that they have control..while most of the teachers know that social development is very important at this age and many of us feel that there should be a recess each day….or at the very least, freedom to chat with friends in the cafeteria [which most principals don’t like either] …..COMPLAIN ALL THE WAY UP THE FOOD CHAIN… AND GO ON LINE OR TO A LIBRARY AND BACK YOUR REQUEST FOR CHANGE UP WITH SOME RESEARCH…

By frank123

July 19, 2006 03:29 PM | Link to this

To Busymom, get the age appropriate books and spend the summer drilling the kids. It will be easier for them to grasp and learn the material when it is presented a second time.

Sue, silence is a good thing for kids to learn. It is good for them to learn control.

By Counting the days...

July 19, 2006 03:41 PM | Link to this

Sue,

As a middle school teacher, I’ve found that the majority of the discipline problems I have in class stem from something that happened in the hallway.

This past year was horrendous as far as the hallway was concerned. The administration attempted to allow students (8th graders) to simply go to class. But when you have 400 + children on one hallway changing class at the same time, it isnt quite so simple. Halfway through the year, the administration becan trying to clamp down on the situtation, but it was too little, too late….and it was a might struggle for the next 5 months to simply get kids to walk 20 feet to the next class within 3 minutes.

Go figure. Personally, I’d like to see kids whammed with rules at the beginning. It’s far simpler to ease up on them later than to expect them to toe an ever changing line.

By Grandma

July 19, 2006 03:52 PM | Link to this

A child needs to learn to follow rules. If the rule is being quiet (which was the same for me when I was a kid) while walking in the halls, then it needs to be followed. There are other classes in session, and would be disrupted by 30+ kids all yammering in the hallway. It’s parents like you that balk at the authority of the school that makes kids think they can do anything they want, and momma will stand up for them. Set an example for your child by teaching them respect for authority.

By luvs2teach

July 19, 2006 04:22 PM | Link to this

Lola - there is testing available for gifted placement as early as kindergarten (and there have been students identified and placed that early), but the Georgia rule is that the student has to place in the 99% to qualify - that’s extremely bright. Your child may be advanced in skills, but not necessarily “gifted” at this time.

I recommend that you make it a point to attend open house and talk to your child’s teacher - let her know your concerns upfront. Many kindergarten classes have a parapro assigned, and a lot of times the para will help the advanced kids work on enrichment while the teacher works with the others.

To be honest, since you shared the name of your school, I think you’ll find two things: first, many of the other children attending that school have had similar early child eduation experiences, and second, that the teachers are well-prepared to work with advanced students - even kindergarteners.

By SNY

July 19, 2006 04:24 PM | Link to this

Grandma,

I do not think that letting kids talk while changing classes is a terrible thing. Yes, children do need to learn to follow the rules that are presented to them, but we are getting rule crazy. As much as teachers and administrators want to deny it, school is a social atmosphere. Which means that the students are not just there for classes. They are also there to learn how to interact with their peers. If you are all walking along the wall silent and no one is speaking, then you are not interacting. Schools are having so many problems because they refuse to let kids act like kids. You put too many rules and regulations on kids and even the best and the brightest tend to turn on you and rebel. That is what kids are suppose to do. They are suppose to test their limits. Teachers, probably mainly administrators, just want little robots that they can manipulate and control. I don’t think that parents are allowing their children to do what they want, I think that parents just want the schools to be more realistic and get over themselves. At least that’s what I want.

By sue

July 19, 2006 04:25 PM | Link to this

Hi Grandma, I didn’t say that my child doesn’t need to follow rules. I have never suggested that he is an exception, and I wouldn’t defend him if he knowingly broke school rules. In fact, I haven’t even discussed the “silent transition” with my child.

I just wondered “aloud” why kids aren’t allowed to talk during transition time. That is the time between the bell that signals one class is over and the bell that signals the next is about to begin. All of the students are transitioning, so there are no other classes being disrupted.

When I was in Jr. High (that’s what they called it when I was that age) we used the time between classes to go to the bathroom, get our books for our next class, say “hi” to our friends and get to class.

Counting the days… made a valid point, Grandma, I’m afraid that you didn’t.

Now they are only allowed one locker break during the day and the whole class is walked to the bathroom at the same time.

By 8thgradeteach

July 19, 2006 04:28 PM | Link to this

GRANDMA…BRAVO from a teacher that would love to tell all parents the same thing…KUDOS

By 8thgradeteach

July 19, 2006 04:31 PM | Link to this

to SNY… GET a grip… you are the type of parent I would hate to have at my school. - Let children be children because I don’t feel like raising them to respect authority at home…

By 8thgradeteach

July 19, 2006 04:34 PM | Link to this

SUE - Get a grip #2 - the junior High model doesn’t exist in the public metro schools. I have an idea - get your certification and join me in the trenches with hundreds of chatting students in the hallway transitioning while you are teaching English. GOOD LUCK!!!

By teach overseas

July 19, 2006 04:38 PM | Link to this

K teachers are well versed in dealing with students who come to school with a wide variety of skills. The teacher will spend some more time at first with some of the slower students, but will offer a wide variety of activities at many times during the day.

Please don’t tell your K teacher that your child is gifted and needs special attention- to any good K teacher- ALL children are gifted in some way and ALL 5 year olds have some areas in which to improve.

Your child may know things like letters, days of the week, colors and write their name, etc.. these are all memorization skills and not a sign of genius.

Truly gifted children have a wide variety of interests and are seldom bored. Don’t excuse poor behavior with “boredom”. One of the main skills many of our higher income children need to learn is how to challenge and entertain themselves. Your teacher will probably not rush to your child at the first complaint of boredom. They are not ignoring your child— they are teaching them an important life skill!

By luvs2teach

July 19, 2006 04:39 PM | Link to this

Sue and SNY - I don’t think the guy’s an idiot - actually, 11, 12, and 13 year olds DON’T do particularly well in simutaneously socializing and getting to class.

Most discipline problems I see occur during transition time - from minor horseplay to major fights. And, the disruptive behavior bleeds into the classroom.

The middle school model (which I don’t love, BTW) is different from the junior high that you and I probably remember. Often, there is no transition time (and thus no locker breaks or socialization time) built in because (in theory) you are right next door to where you’ll need to be - it’s more like changing to specials in elementary than changing classes in high school. As others have stated, depending on the layout of the school, silence may be necessary to minimize disruption to other classes.

Ask your kids about elementary - weren’t they always quiet in halls then? How many of you have visited elementary schools to see the little ones lined up in the hall with their fingers over their mouths reminding their “lips to be still.” Of course, they had recess to allow them to blow off a little steam. Now, if you said he wanted them to have a silent lunch, then I would agree on the idiot factor.

Now, this actually leads to my question, as a parent. My children both HATED middle school. HATED it with a passion. They both left elementary with a love of learning and left middle school with a dislike of school (luckily high school changed that). Why? Because the day was WAY TOO LONG, with few to no breaks. You might end up eating lunch at a ridiculously early or late time and couldn’t have a snack to tide you over. You were shuffled from class to class with only twenty minutes for lunch.

So, my question is: why do we make our young adolescents suffer through a work day that we ourselves wouldn’t put up with? Seven and a half hours? No break? Twenty minute lunch? BTW - I don’t need to mention county because this isn’t a single county phenomena.

By I_Teach

July 19, 2006 04:40 PM | Link to this

This is for Chris, RE: LD son…

My son has several different forms of dyslexia. He is now a rising Junior ;-). He has never been in a special ed. class, but does have a 504 on file. This allows him to obtain an IAP- an Individual Accommodation Plan. If your son has been serviced for his LD condition, he has an IEP on file, and you are probably pretty familiar w. the meetings, plans, etc.

Schedule a meeting asap; visit your son’s school. Determine how they are going to service your son to meet his needs. Will it be a self-contained class? Pull out, or push in model? How many hours a day will he be served? Will there be a collab teacher on his team to work with him? Will you be able to obtain materials, etc. to work with him at home.

Contact the school administration NOW to ask these questions, and to set up a meeting before school-if possible, with the special ed. coordinator in the building.

Above all? TRUST YOUR INSTINCTS!

Good luck…you really have to advocate for your son, so your very best bet is to educate yourself on his rights!

By Mayretta Local

July 19, 2006 04:43 PM | Link to this

kids not speaking during class changes is absurd. kids not speaking as they walk to lunch or with their class to the library was the rule when I was in elementary & middle school. if you acted up going to lunch, you had to eat by yourself and weren’t allowed to talk, while everyone else ate and talked with their friends. if you still got out of line, you got a special seat next to the teacher. punish the kids at fault, not everyone.

same goes for problems starting in the halls during class changes. how are kids supposed to learn how to act amongst others when they are devoid of interaction with their peers? if they don’t figure it out in middle school, then they’re really going to have a problem in high school. people that cause problems should be punished, and maybe everyone will see it’s not ok to act up in the halls. kids will fight and bicker and whatever, but hey, it’s part of growing up. all thru life there will be people who one doesn’t like or get along with, and one better learn to deal with them. punish the kids who come in late from class changes or act up, not the rest of the kids who can handle it.

it’s about LEARNING how to interact with others, not just what’s in the books. enforce the rules and punish appropriately, don’t create more rules or punish everyone for the misdeeds of a few. the schoolhouse is not some communist regime that the teachers and administrators run. someone who cannot handle “all the noise” of a normal lunchroom or class change is in the wrong profession; maybe they should work in a library and boss the books around instead.

By 8thgradeteach

July 19, 2006 04:46 PM | Link to this

GREAT question - Most districts (especially) mine have to deal with the lack of bus drivers issue. So they are shuttling and sharing (buses)…That’s why the hours were changed in my county. Trust me, I dislike it totally.

By Grandpa

July 19, 2006 04:48 PM | Link to this

Sue, obviously you don’t want to hear any legitimate reasons why your child shouldn’t be allowed to “socialize” during class change. When students are allowed to socialize during class change it invariably leads to name calling, yelling, pushing, shoving, and animosity that carries over to the class room and often ends up as another student fight. If students are allowed to go to the restroom unescorted they have a tendency to wander the halls, wave at their friends in other classes creating disturbances, making calls on their cell phones, and generally wasting time to avoid returning to class. The teachers have to stand in the halls and monitor the class changes and report the rules violators but, that sure beats having to break up a confrontation in the class room. If today’s 13 and 14 year olds weren’t such rude, undisciplined, little heathens (not all but quite a few) the silent rules wouldn’t have to be applied. Life isn’t going to be fair so, it is best to have your child learn to deal with a little disappointment now and gain a greater appreciation for when work out just the way they imagined. After all when your child gets out into the world and gets a job you won’t be able to go complaining to the supervisor that “little Johnny” isn’t being treated fair and isn’t getting enough special treatment.

By 8thgradeteach

July 19, 2006 04:50 PM | Link to this

In the ideal society - not the one I work or live in…Schools would follow every rule everyone suggests to make it a happier place - it doesn’t work that way anymore. The majority of the kids are coming to school with no social skills (manners) and ruin it for everyone. That’s the way life goes. Including the real world. One adult can ruin for all the other adults on their job…It’s a reality.

By luvs2teach

July 19, 2006 04:54 PM | Link to this

Other questions I can think of based on my experience as both a parent and a teacher:

How often can (and should) I expect communication from school?

How do I read and interpret test scores? What do these scores mean for my child?

How do I know if my child is gifted/special needs/learning disabled? What do I do about it? Who do I contact?

My family is going through a tough time (death/divorce/etc). Does the school have anything in place to help? Is there someone I should notify?

My child has a chronic medical condition. How do I ensure that her needs are taken care of? Who do I need to talk to at the school? Who is trained to handle the condition?

What are REASONABLE things a teacher will do if my child is struggling? At what point will I need to consider tutoring or other outside help?

How can I help prepare my child for the transition from elementary to middle or from middle to high? (or pre-K to K :-) )

I heard there were knives/guns/drugs/gangs at school last year. What procedures are in place to ensure my child’s safety?

What can I, as a parent, do to help?

Sue - Both middle schools where I taught had different transition times for the different grade levels so there were indeed children disrupting others. It’s very different now - I wish we’d go back, to be honest.

By Chris

July 19, 2006 04:55 PM | Link to this

To: I_Teach Thanks very much for the suggestions. My kid will start the last year of elementary school this year, so I have a few months to get ready. I am very familiar with the IEP process, but the info you gave about how special ed works differently in middle school is very helpful and will give me a place to start gathering more information.

Believe me, I know about having to advocate for my kid. It’s another full-time job, but so worth it when I see the successes.

Thanks again!

By SET

July 19, 2006 04:59 PM | Link to this

Interesting line on the “silent transition” thing. Catlady’s most important point was that the parents involved should probably go over to the school and see for themselves what the atmosphere is like before they consider challenging the “new” principal and his Silent Transition scheme.

Beyond that another observation. You cannot take your business to a ghetto bank branch and complain that they are not treating you the way you would have been treated at an upscale community bank. One of my co-workers was just complaining about that the other day and I pointed out that you get what you deserve when you make these choices - what do you expect? I don’t shop at WalMart either. Went there occasionally to check it out though.

Sue didn’t mention the demographics of the school in question. Is it a school with high free lunches and single mother “parents” - where the administration is trying to get a grip on the pack behavior?

The Grade 1-8 schools I went to had us line up in silence in the playground every morning for the pledge of allegance, then march single file in total silence to our classrooms. The entire school at once. All my family and friends grew up with that. The skillset comes in handy even now. So I don’t see this Silent Transition thing as being too tramautic. If we broke silence we’d get smacked around on the spot by those 99lb Irish and Italian nuns - the Irish hit quicker - the Italians generally yelled first.

I’m not saying this (Silence) is a required policy or that I’d impose it. But the school would have a reason for it and that’s good enough for me for the time being. By all means go check the situation out and communicate with the principal. But if you don’t like the school you have chosen for your kid, why is the kid still there?

By Litmajor

July 19, 2006 04:59 PM | Link to this

Teach overseas-

I’m not sure if your post was directed towards me since another parent also asked a similiar question. However, I don’t send my child to school to entertain herself. She can do that at home. The demographics of the school have changed drastically causing them to fail state tests which in turn will cause the teachers to focus more on the students who have issues.

Her pre-k teachers told me to make her new teacher aware of her abilities which I plan to do. I don’t want the teacher to think that I’m some out of touch parent who thinks the child is a genius because I’ve worked with her extensively (and I will continue to do so). That’s why I asked the question here.

By catlady

July 19, 2006 05:00 PM | Link to this

8th grade teach makes excellent points. Listen to her—she has been in a middle school in the last 5 years. It ain’t what it used to be! Go visit! Lola, my children were all very advanced. My son read on 5th grade level coming into kindergarten, and talked about Shakespeare’s plays as a first grader. His teachers loved him and pushed him along to things he didn’t know about. After leaving Georgia for me to go back to grad school, he spent the first year we were in Florida reading independently and tutoring the other students. The best thing was when he finally got placed in gifted the next year. He came home after a few days and told me he didn’t want to be in gifted any more because…..there were kids in there who were smarter than he! The best lesson he learned, probably. So I am telling you, teachers have probably seen kids even more advanced than yours. Just support them and remember that your child is still a child, with a child’s needs and development.

By SET

July 19, 2006 05:03 PM | Link to this

luvs2teach: If the family needs all those services they’d better find a good private school to send the kid to. Most public schools that I see are not in business to provide that level of handholding.

Just about everything you listed would be the parent’s problem to solve. Even if the school promised some of these services they wouldn’t/couldn’t deliver on the promise.

By ?????

July 19, 2006 05:09 PM | Link to this

I have a question????

Why is there not enough time between classes for students to use the restroom and get water? Three minutes, even though I see the point, is really not enough time for kids to take care of their personal needs. More often than not kids ask for a restroom during class which, so far is allowed one at a time.

Another point is I learned that a child was denied a restroom during CRCT that lasted 2 1/2 hours. There were hall monitors that allowed adults to use the restroom but it was denied to kids. Do others think this was unreasonable? I think that is cruel and inhumane. If it was my child that was treated that way I would have removed him immediately from that school. How can he concentrate on the CRCT?

By luvs2teach

July 19, 2006 05:10 PM | Link to this

It’s obvious from some of the posts that many of you out there who either don’t have middle schoolers yet or haven’t been in a school in awhile and are reflecting on “the good old days” don’t realize how much things have changed.

First - for many middle schools, there is no transition time - look at the schedules. You will see one class ending at the same time the next begins (a little absurd, I know). Many middle schools built in the last 30 years weren’t built in the traditional “Science hall” “Social Studies hall” “Math hall” model but rather in “pods” or “teams” - all your child’s classes, with the exception of exploratories (specials or electives) are all right next to each other. Many middle schools don’t even have lockers - they have cubbies in their homeroom. Class change often consists of walking quietly from one room to the next in less than a minute.

Or at least in theory…

Lest you think that they get NO social time - the classroom itself has changed. The old model of the teacher standing at the front and the students diligently and silent write down everything she says is passe (and discouraged). Collaborative learning and cooperative groups are commonplace and encouraged. Part of teaching them to work cooperatively is teaching them the necessary social skills to be able to do it properly.

By catlady

July 19, 2006 05:13 PM | Link to this

???? you think that is bad (not going to the bathroom). Reading First told us we could not give our children a bathroom break (1-3rd graders) for the two hours and fifteen minutes they have reading instruction each day!

By catlady

July 19, 2006 05:16 PM | Link to this

Oh, and ???? We (students and teachers) have no “personal needs” like using the bathroom or chewing our food or having a moment to reflect on the lesson. Those are now a Waste of Time! Off-target behavior! We’ll never pass the CRCT using the bathroom indiscriminately like that!

By luvs2teach

July 19, 2006 05:20 PM | Link to this

SET - LOL, I agree, but I have been asked those questions! And, with NCLB, there is a greater push in some of our high priority schools to provide “parent liasion services” - even to the point of hiring a parapro that serves as a parent contact person.

And you are right about the silent transition being needed in certain schools more than others - some of our kids aren’t taught civility at home. They don’t know how to make a decent class change. And studies have shown that because some of these kids have so little structure at home, they actually crave it and welcome it at school - it provides a sense of security.

I have to laugh every time you mention the Irish nuns - not only did I attend Catholic school, but my mom’s side was Irish Catholic - she and my grandmother were swift with the backhand if I ever said anything out of line! And I was convinced that God would see me if I ever did anything wrong - if not God, then “a little birdie” would rat me out. It kept me pretty much on the straight and narrow!

By 8th grade sped teacher

July 19, 2006 05:35 PM | Link to this

It seems most questions are being answered great! One of the most important things a parent can do is be involved at your child’s school. I know that a lot of us have to work and can’t just go by anytime, but make an effort to be at the school at off times during the day - help out with extra-curricular activities - send goodies to class - get to know ALL the teachers, that way you can already be looking ahead as a good placement for your child for years ahead. Not all children and all teachers get along, but not all of us as adults get along and I always have tried to tell my own children and my students that we have to learn to cope with those situations and it becomes a life skill that is very helpful. Another way to be involved in your school is to be on the school council - all schools are required to have one and they have members that include parents, business owners and teachers. This avenue also gives you input into the schools schedule and the “transition” times that are being talked about. At our middle school each team changes at a different time (only about 5 minutes difference) but that helps alleviate some of the problems. My own opinion about not letting middle schoolers talk is totally against it! The middle school years are very formative years for kids and their relationships with others and they need that interaction time. It works better for me when I ask them to stop talking during class and to tell them they can talk about it when they change classes- Any parent who has a child that has gifted or special needs should read about their child’s abilities and what their rights are. There are some excellent sites on the Georgia Dept. of Ed site http://public.doe.k12.ga.us/ It is an easy site to navigate. Also, look at the ajc.com article on AYP and see how your system did.http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/stories/0712metaypcharts.html Also, look at your school’s report card. Parents - knowledge is the key! Keep up the good work.

By teach overseas

July 19, 2006 05:37 PM | Link to this

Lit Major-

I was not directing my post to you personally dear-

If you (or others!) are sending a child to a school that has some students at a relatively high SES status, you are not the only one who has a child who “gets it”.

Your K teacher will also “get it” the first day of school. Only some of the skills in K are academic, some are social.

Lit major- here is where I’m speaking to you::::

If your child has already mastered some of the academic skills, your child’s teacher will probably direct your child’s education in another area- K is not like upper school where the teacher does one thing for all students- Your child’s teacher has most likely had extensive experience with bright children and knows how to challenge them- and will most likely ask them to challenge themselves at times.

Lit major- I’m still speaking to you- so hang on….

Educational research has also shown that the advantages that some children show in K and 1st such as memorization skills and reading readiness ( often by parents of high SES trying to give their children a “leg up”) are all but leveled out by the time all children enter 4th grade.

If your child is bright- you don’t really need to work with her—— read to her (I’m sure you do!) Do math in the kitchen while cooking with her (don’t make it math- she will make the connection herself!) Take a walk in the park and do science. Bright children do not need workbooks and exercises.

By catlady

July 19, 2006 05:39 PM | Link to this

One more thing regarding the CRCT and bathrooming. Children were to be allowed to use the bathroom in between the two sections given that day. The child ??? talks aboutmay have wanted/needed an extra break. God Forbid! We have to report that (along with vomiting and nosebleeds) to the state and it can result in trouble for the school! We are even given baggies to save evidence of the vomit/nosebleed! The county office must be notified! Fortunately we do not have to provide the used toilet paper, yet. YET.

By ????

July 19, 2006 05:51 PM | Link to this

Thanks catlady,

Unfortunately, the school did not allow a RR break even between sections but had snacks. I still think this is going too far. If you gotta you gotta. Some people can go two or three hours but other younger kids can not.

By luvs2teach

July 19, 2006 05:52 PM | Link to this

Interesting quesitons about the CRCT bathroom break - now granted I have 8th graders, but I specifically tell them that “it’s like a long car ride - go NOW!” If someone has to go during the test, I check to make sure that they absolutely can not wait, and then I’ll let them go - BUT, like catlady said, I do have to document that they left the classroom. The testing instructions are very explicit on that point. It may not be a matter of life and death but it is a matter of the law and my job!

???? - in the middle school they aren’t given time to go to the restroom or to get water because theoretically they are to be given scheduled bathroom and water breaks, much like elementary. You see it much more in 6th grade than in 8th.

Unfortunately (just like the good old days) not all kids going to the bathroom are going to the bathroom. See the cellphone blog and some of the comments on hall behavior here to find out what they are doing.

By SET

July 19, 2006 05:56 PM | Link to this

When parents visit the school they should inspect the bathrooms and not hesitate to photograph anything substandard. It makes good talking points with the principal and the media if you need it.

If the school is so anal-retentive that they have filthy bathrooms or they unreasonably won’t let the kids use the facilities you have really got to get your kids out of there. It’s a sign of a deeper problem and you shouldn’t hang around such a school.

By Litmajor

July 19, 2006 06:00 PM | Link to this

Thanks Teach overseas-

I know about the 4th grade “experience.” Strangely, my son seemed to get it in the 5th grade but it didn’t take long for him to get himself back together.

We read more than anything. I majored in literature previously and now it’s english education. I do as much math and science as I can handle. Since the ants have decided that my yard is really their yard, we observe and discuss. I did get some bird feeders so we moniter those as well.

The school is not in a high SES area so I try to overcompensate I guess. I have complete confidence in the lower level teachers since (surprisingly) they have not headed for the hills! We only have 2 years max left in this district so I don’t want her to be above average here and behind when we switch schools. Does that make any sense?

Ah, workbooks…the bane of my 11 year old’s existence. My education teachers warned me about those but I must admit, I did pick up some in spite of myself.

We’re on vacation in Orlando and headed to Sea World tomorrow. Something tells me that we’ll be studying sea creatures once we head back to Georgia. You can’t beat an educational vacation can you?

Socially she’s fine. Her social calendar looks better than mine:))

Thanks again!

By catlady

July 19, 2006 06:00 PM | Link to this

Some schools allow kids to carry water bottles with them during the day. Of course, that leads to more need to “waste precious time” in the bathroom!

By catlady

July 19, 2006 06:03 PM | Link to this

Some schools allow kids to carry water bottles with them during the day. Of course, that leads to more need to “waste precious instructional time” in the bathroom!

By catlady

July 19, 2006 06:04 PM | Link to this

Some schools allow kids to carry water bottles with them during the day. Of course, that leads to more need to “waste precious instructional time” in the bathroom!

By catlady

July 19, 2006 06:07 PM | Link to this

(Sorry about the multiple post. It was worth sharing, but not that much)

By NewTeach

July 19, 2006 06:27 PM | Link to this

I am a new teacher in an elementary school and my students will be getting silent lunch for talking in the hall. We will be traveling by classrooms where other students are learning, and I expect my students to be respectful of the teachers who are teaching and learners who are learning. I would expect the same from them as they come by my classroom. When I was in middle school, I witnessed terrible group fights in the hallway where my classmates were really injured. Our administrators resorted to having to lead us to every class in a quiet, straight line, even in the eighth grade. I am not surprised at all that administrators are calling for silent transitions. There is time for socializing during other parts of the day.

By ?????

July 19, 2006 06:32 PM | Link to this

One more thing I would like to add about the bathrooms. If the mirrors could be removed in all of them it would prevent primping and promote using the toilet and sink and getting out of there. There should also be some rounds made by administrators and possibly stellar subs who are not being used just to check for skippers. These things would promote restroom usage for what they are intended, to use the bathroom and get back to class quickly.

By Teacher

July 19, 2006 06:37 PM | Link to this

School is NOT for socializing; it is meant to build critical thinkers and productive members of society. If you are expecting the schools to provide your student with social time, then you aren’t doing your job as a parent. Do we educators have to do everything? Character education, social time, recess, bathroom time during class? What’s next? Should we teach them how to dress and eat? Please, please ask to spend a day in your child’s school to see what is actually going on. Times have changed dramatically in schools, and parents don’t realize it. I teach seniors, and I encourage my parents to visit regularly. In 12 years, I’ve only had one parent visit. Also, it is truly not a school’s responsibility to keep a parent informed beyond report cards. We offer all of the phone calls, emails and letters home as a courtesy. Regardless of what the public thinks, we want our students to succeed, and we do what we need to get parents involved. However, ultimately it is the RESPONSIBILITY of the PARENT to communicate with a school and teachers. Please do so regularly. Educators welcome the involvement; it is what we want more than anything. Please understand (with high school at least) that many teachers have somewhere around 150-200 students, and making contact is not always easy. Additionally, some schools don’t have the appropriate technology - my school has 3,500 students and upwards of 300 faculty and only three phone lines. Parents: know the dates of report cards, call the school for all information. Don’t trust your kid when he says he didn’t get a report card/progress report, and don’t ever believe them when they say their school day was “okay”. Make them give you details, make them show you their homework if they say it is completed. Above all else, hold your student and yourself accountable as much as you hold the teachers and school accountable.

By luvs2teach

July 19, 2006 06:46 PM | Link to this

???? - your comment about admin and subs checking the bathroom is a good one - remember teachers who had hall duty back in the “good old days”? Well, you don’t see that anymore either. During a challenging period at one of my schools, teachers on planning were asked to do periodic sweeps of the rest rooms, but that’s no substitute for an actual monitor, asking to see passes and checking up if one is in there too long, or strange sounds or smells are emanating from within.

That reminds me of a situation my first year teaching. I had three young men tell me one period that they really needed to go - it was an emergency! Well, I let each of them go, one at a time, just like I was supposed to - none seemed to be gone an unusually long time. Turns out they were meeting a very willing young lady (seventh grader!!!) for a “Lewinsky moment.”

Yes - in middle school.

By jim dumond

July 20, 2006 08:54 AM | Link to this

Chase this one down Patti,

I’d really love a straight up answer.

Why do our public schools continue to cave in to political pressure when educators truly know there are superior methods available to provide our children with a quality education?

By Counting the days

July 20, 2006 08:58 AM | Link to this

I had potty duty this past year. It’s amazing how many middle school students can’t simply just walk into the restroom, do their business, and walk out. It was like herding cats most days, except cats are much more apt to follow instruction or exhibit common sense.

I’ve always found it interesting how some parents won’t bother to darken the door of the school house or return a call to a teacher when little Johnny is flunking, fighting, or being hauled off by the police…but if they feel that little Johnny’s bathroom or cell phone rights are being stomped on by a teacher, then they are all over that school, threatening to sue, call the ACLU, etc.

This past year, I had one little girl who simply had to go to the restroom every single day at 22 minutes into class. I could set my clock by her and frequently did.

About halfway through the school year, I simply took 10 minutes every single period and took my entire class to the restroom just so I wouldn’t have to stop instruction every couple of minutes to write a pass for her or someone to go to the restroom. I did this at the beginning of class so we could have some sort of continuity in class.

And guess what? The class would get back, get settled…and that same girl would ask 10 minutes later to go to the restroom. When asked why she didn’t go when the rest of the class did, she said, “I didn’t have to go then.”

I finally put my foot down on it and said, “no.” By the end of the day, her mother was in my classroom ranting about how she was going to report me to the PSC, have me fired, etc. My administrator heard the yelling, stuck his head in, heard the tale, and offered to come by every single day to take the young lady to the restroom herself at the designated time.

Turns out, her mom was calling the same time every day, and she had to go to the restroom to take the call. The first time it happened, my administrator confiscated the cell phone and was threatened with being reported to the PSC, being fired, etc.

It’s a lovely world, isn’t it?

By Teacher, Too

July 20, 2006 09:20 AM | Link to this

I teach middle school. I allow students to use the restrooms after I have given the lesson and moved on to an independent or group activity. Some of my students take advantage of that; I had one student who repeatedly left the room for 15-20 minutes. When that happened the third time, she lost her restroom privileges. Of course, I had to document all this, call the parent and get blessed out for 20 minutes on the phone.

One other note about students using the bathroom during passing periods…vandalism. This is a time when students are generally unsupervised and some students stuff the toilets and overflow them, graffiti the walls, and yes, even tear the doors off the hinges. I have taught at three schools where this kind of behavior goes on. So, yes, if students are going to behave in that manner, then perhaps they still need to be walked to the restrooms as if they were in elementary school. Where does that lack of respect for property and for their fellow peers come from? It is truly appalling.

Middle school students have little awareness of how loud they are. If you have 300-400 students all talking and socializing with a normal voice tone, that’s still going to be loud, but managable. However, 300-400 students shouting at each other down the hallway- that’s not managable. I can see why some schools have gone to silent transition.

Perhaps there needs to be a summer school on etiquitte for public places… and that includes the gum-chewing/ smacking that goes on!

By wwww

July 20, 2006 09:33 AM | Link to this

teacher: AMEN! Thank you for pointing out it is the PARENT’S responsibility. I am always amazed at parents who seem to be totally unaware when report cards go home, who their child’s teachers are, how to email us, contact the school, or generally have any idea what is going on at all with thier child at school.

Parents: 1. Please, please, please - check your school’s websites. It will have ALL the important dates you will need to know. In fact, there is tons of helpful info you can find there. If what you are looking for cannot be found, email your child’s teacher. He or she will either answer your question or direct you to the person who can. I know some of you will reply that you do email, only to find the teacher doesn’t respond. This is really unacceptable - try one more time, save your sent items, and if you still don’t receive a reply, take it to the AP in charge of your child’s grade level.

If you come across a teacher who is not helping you support your efforts/generally not doing his or her job, please realize that was one bad experience - we are not all like that. I promise.

Jim d: Good luck with that one! :) I would like an answer to that myself.

By catlady

July 20, 2006 09:34 AM | Link to this

The complaining parents I have had that actually came to the school for a visit (not for a party, and for longer than 15 minutes) ALL left the school with “Let me know if you have ANY more trouble out of my child.” It should be required of any parent with a complaint like some we have seen on this blog. The trick is to get them in for awhile. It is a lot easier to raise H* from the safety and ignorance of home or the corporate world. Why do administrators give in on things with relatively easy but controversial solutions? Frequently they don’t get backed up “up the line.” And some have NO confidence in the professionalism of their staff.

By K's Mommy

July 20, 2006 09:34 AM | Link to this

My daughter will be starting Kindergarten this year. I read to her on a regular basis, however she is not reading yet. Is this a problem? What knowledge/skills is she expected to have on the first day?

By Gail

July 20, 2006 09:42 AM | Link to this

My question for school administrators is Why can’t more be done about the deplorable behavior and lack of discipline in schools? We all know that schools are afraid of lawsuits, but does the school district office have a policy that they will not defend potential lawsuits?

I have been out of school for a long time, but there have always been parents who wanted to sue because of some “supposed mistreatment” of their child. Why is it that the sue-happy parents now have the schools on the run? Some of the lawsuits we have been reading about in the last few years are absolutely ridiculous. Why not go to court with some of these nuts and let them get laughed out of court? Then we can set a new precedence that certain behaviors will not be tolerated, period.

It seems like the majority of parents think some students are behavior problems; don’t these parents support the administration when they crack down on discipline issues? I expect someone will say “until it’s that parents child”, but if the rules are fair and apply to everyone fairly, what argument does that leave the parent?

By catlady

July 20, 2006 09:45 AM | Link to this

K’s mom—don’t worry about what she does not know. Bathe her with language, books, and real opportunties for learning math, science, and social studies. She will be ready for school if she has the basic stuff: She needs to be quiet at certain times and ready to speak up at others. She needs to be friendly but assertive. She needs to understand that she will be a part of a group, and not the only focus of her teacher. She needs to know that you will be waiting for her after school to hear about interesting things she has done, and people she has met. She needs to know that you expect her to do well. She needs to know she has your support, but any assignments are HERS to do. She needs to know that you think going to her school and her teacher is the best thing that can happen!

By SNY

July 20, 2006 09:57 AM | Link to this

K’s Mommy,

I’m going to tell you like I told busymom yesterday, your child will be okay. Not every child is reading by kindergarten. When she sees other kids at school doing the things that she can’t (or won’t), she’ll get encouraged to try. That’s all that you can ask of your child - just to try. Just love her and support her and I promise you, she will be alright.

Teacher,

How can you say that school is not about socializing? I don’t understand what society wants anymore. You have parents that decide that the public school system isn’t working so they start to home school. Then they are told that their kids should be in school with their peers because home schooled kids don’t socialize well once they get out in the real world. Now you are telling us that school isn’t for socializing. Which one is it. You (teachers) can’t have your cake and eat it to.

About the bathroom thing, I have already fought that battle, in my private school, and I have informed my child that if she really has to go then get up and go. I’ll deal with the school after the fact. Holding yourself can cause lots of medical problems with the bladder and NO ONE has the right to put my childs health in danger. My daughter actually had to disobey her teacher, in public school, and go to the bathroom. It was during a test and the teacher told her she couldn’t go. My daughter then asked 1 more time and was given the same answer. She waited so long that she almost didn’t make it to the bathroom. She had to run in the hallways. So not only did they try to get her in trouble for leaving class without permission, they tried to get her for running in the halls as well. By the time I was finish with them, they had no problems the rest of the year letting her go when she said she needed to. I didn’t yell, fuss or scream I just told them that I gave her permission to use the bathroom if she really needed to and that they BETTER no undermine my authority on this matter. No more bathroom problems. So, ????? sometimes you just have to stick up for your kid and do what you feel is best. You are the parent, they are the teacher. Both are important but you have the trump card, they don’t.

By Gail

July 20, 2006 10:00 AM | Link to this

Sorry, should have been precendent, not precedence.

By Gwinnett Teacher

July 20, 2006 10:00 AM | Link to this

K’s Mommy - Your daughter already has what she needs for her first day - a mother who reads to her and cares about her education enough to ask questions!

Keep up the good work!

By catlady

July 20, 2006 10:00 AM | Link to this

Gail, I think many folks have bought into the old welfare idea: The kids (because of disfunctional families, poverty, etc) just can’t do any better. We know that is wrong, but when you start enforcing rules someone gets punished and we all know it’s NOT MY KID. Someone else MADE him do it.

I have a teacher friend, who was talking with a NMK parent. When the parent disputed what the teacher had seen the child do, the teacher replied, “So, you say I am lying, right? And his first and second grade teachers lied about him, too, right?” The parent realized how her disputing the teacher sounded, and then they were able to work on the problem. Our principal would have had a stroke when she used the word “lying.” The thing is, many times parents will say, “Yes, you ARE lying about my precious child. You must have it in for him!” At some schools, the monkeys are running the zoo!

By Gwinnett Teacher

July 20, 2006 10:04 AM | Link to this

SNY - something that you’re probably not aware of:

The term in loco parentis, Latin for “in the place of a parent”, refers to the legal responsibility of a person or organization to take on some of the functions and responsibilities of a parent. American courts primarily apply the doctrine of in loco parentis to educational institutions.

That means that when you drop your child off at school, the teachers act as the parent. So - theoretically, at school, we do have the “trump card”. Just FYI!

By Gail

July 20, 2006 10:12 AM | Link to this

Hi Catlady Are you a teacher? If so, how do you feel about cameras in the classroom? I’m in favor of it, if for no other reason than to provide “evidence” to parents of ill-behaved students. Those videos might also help cut down on some the ridiculous lawsuits.

I know that all of us parents can have a blind eye when it comes to our children sometimes. Maybe video proof is what some parents need for a reality check.

By SNY

July 20, 2006 10:14 AM | Link to this

Gwinnett Teacher,

I don’t care what the law says, as far as my child is concerned, I have the trump card. Now behind closed doors, you and I and the administration can talk privately about anything, but in front of my kid, I rule!! Period. I don’t care who agrees or disagrees or who likes it.

By Gwinnett Teacher

July 20, 2006 10:18 AM | Link to this

SNY says - “* I don’t care what the law says…”

And, there you have it!

By SNY

July 20, 2006 10:22 AM | Link to this

Parents on the blog,

Have any of you noticed how many times the teachers on this blog have referred to our children as animals or compared them to animals? No wonder they can’t get anything out of these students.

Teachers on the blog,

If you have these types of conversations about the students you teach, how can you say that you care about them? There is alot of pent up resentment in the posts on this blog. How can you keep a level and objective head when the students are in your face everyday if you sound this bitter during the summer?

Patti,

I have a question for the topic. Teachers, how are you trained to settle down the students after a bathroom break or a fight? How do you get the class back under control? Do you yell, do you give them a minute or two to get situated in their seats or do you just try to go straight to teaching?

Also, how are you trained to hold your temper during a particularly upsetting dispute between you and a student or you and a parent?

By Just Wondering

July 20, 2006 10:25 AM | Link to this

SNY - you complained that the public school teacher wasn’t “strict” enough and it’s the teacher’s fault that your daughter didn’t mind her. Now, you say that the teachers don’t have the authority over the child while she’s at school. You can’t have it both ways!

You might as well just say, “Just do what I want you to do. Don’t follow the law, don’t do what’s best for my child, just do what I want you to do!”

I’m totally against home-schooling because I don’t think most parents are qualified, but, I would say that you’re a prime candidate! That’s the only way you will be ensured that you are the only person who is the authority figure over your child!

If you don’t want anyone else telling your child what she can or cannot do - keep her at home!

By SET

July 20, 2006 10:25 AM | Link to this

SNY:

Your feelings that you can control what the State Schools say to your child is a fantasy.

There are ample appellate court cases that say the parents have no veto power over school curriculum - and don’t have to be consulted, notified or even considered in these matters. If it pleases the state they may pass legislation giving you rights of advance notice and opting out of some material - but that’s a state option not any kind of constitutional right.

As a grown adult you have notice of these things. So based on what can you make the statement “…in front of my kid, I rule!! Period.”“? Are you just saying these things because you think of the world in terms of what you want it to be?

If parents don’t approve of the the school their child is in they had better change schools. - Which is why Los Angeles Unified is down to 5% white. Those parents voted with their feet and the LA schools are apparently good enough only for the remaining students.

By SNY

July 20, 2006 10:27 AM | Link to this

Gwinnett Teacher,

Get over it, you know exactly what I mean, you are a parent and if you feel strongly about something, nothing is going to stop you either. Don’t pick apart my post and make it seem as if I am some type of raging lunatic. I’m not. I just have a problem with someone trying to tell me what is right for MY kid. If you give my kid some wrong advice and she takes it and gets into trouble, the courts aren’t going to look at you and blame you for giving bad advice, they are going to blame me for not being a mother. You know that I’m right. So, again, for the purpose of my child, what I say goes!

By Gwinnett Teacher

July 20, 2006 10:29 AM | Link to this

SNY - when the shoe fits…!

I call my own children goats when they come in smelling like a petting zoo! I call them monkeys when they are acting like they’ve been caged all of their lives! I call them hyenas when they used to get into giggling fits!

Don’t make something out of nothing! I’m sure most of the time, most teachers do not refer to their students as animals; and if they do - it’s all in jest. I’m sure you’ve called your children something other than their names! Lighten up!

By Just Wondering

July 20, 2006 10:30 AM | Link to this

SNY - maybe your daughter has a bladder problem because she has to listen to your bitterness and resentment everyday!

By abc

July 20, 2006 10:34 AM | Link to this

SNY - I don’t think Gwinnett Teacher has made you look like a “raging lunatic” - you’ve done a great job all on your own!

What color is the sky in your world?

By SET

July 20, 2006 10:40 AM | Link to this

SNY:

Gwinnett Teacher is not making you loiok like a raging lunatic.

By oey!!

July 20, 2006 10:45 AM | Link to this

SNY,

I am soooo glad that I will never encounter your child in my classroom, because time and again your comments make me glad I won’t have to encounter a parent like you! Before your dander gets up, let me qualify that: you CLEARLY are the best advocate for your daughter, and you CLEARLY want only the best for her. But many of the comments you make (on this topic and others in the past) reiterate the same theme: you have told your daughter that you rule; the teacher is secondary. You are setting her up to not respect authority (I believe you made a comment once in the past that a teacher has to EARN her respect, which I disagree with vehemently, but which was already discussed in a past blog.) Worse, you are setting her up to think that rules don’t apply to her, and that is a real tragedy — because somewhere along the line, you won’t be able to step in and save her. I urge you to please consider this, because it is perhaps the scariest part of all.

Now I am sure that she is a good, delightful little girl and your messages (as with all emails) lose tone-of-voice, so I am willing to acknowledge that I may be reading a bit too deeply into some of them.

But as a high school teacher, I would be lying if I didn’t say that your tone (as it comes across) and your messages scare me. You very often read as the bullying parent, and there are too many of you in Gwinnett County.

By wwww

July 20, 2006 10:47 AM | Link to this

SNY:

Teachers have to blow off steam sometimes. We all get angry, frustrated, irritated or just plain fed up with our students.
Actually, this proves the point that we do care - if I don’t care about someone or something, I don’t get upset about it.
When I put hours and hours into a student, for example, trying everything in the book to motivate them, and the only result is a continued “Screw you” attitude and a parent who blames me, I’m going to get upset and blow off steam.

It’s our job - I don’t know anyone who hasn’t gotten angry at a coworker and had something to say about it. In a way, I see my students as “coworkers” we are both working together to reach a goal every day. We are not perfect.

About the bathroom thing, I don’t tell kids they can’t go. However, keep in mind that students with medical issues we are aware of. Those who go all the time, I usually call home to make sure everything is ok before I tell them they can no longer go during class time.

By SNY

July 20, 2006 10:49 AM | Link to this

Just,

My daughter doesn’t have a bladder problem and never will because she will now get up and go to the restroom.

I went from talking about going to the restroom and you all took it to all different levels. When I said that I have the trump card, I was referring to that specific situation. Not all situations. If I tell my child that she is to get up and use the restroom when she has to then that is exactly what I mean. Does that mean that the next time the teacher tells her something that she doesn’t have to listen, of course not!! But I am not going to let a teacher hurt or ruin my child. Period. And none of you other parents would either.

Just,

I’m not bitter, I just think that teachers could use a little more common sense when it comes to younger children using the bathroom. Again, I am only speaking of my authority in this specific situation.

I also don’t home school because I don’t feel as if I am qualified to give my child everything that she needs education wise.

Gwinnett Teacher,

No I do not call my child out of her name in the way that you are speaking. I am actually shocked that you would use these names with your own children. My husband would kill me if I called our children goats or monkeys. I am raising a young woman and I don’t want her to think that it is okay for people to call her those names when she gets older. I do however call her silly when she is giggling. But no, not a hyena. My Bishop Eddie L. Long, is very stict on us parents when it comes to the words that are spoken over our (his) children. I try to follow that advice as much as possible.

By HS Teacher Too

July 20, 2006 10:52 AM | Link to this

To answer the question about how we are trained to handle the after-fight atmosphere, I would say that in my memory, we aren’t really “trained” on that as such. What I typically do (and I teach high school, so 99% of the time if I DO have to deal with this issue it is because most of my class has just come from lunch, where the fight happened) is to let the kids talk, as a group, TO ME, for a minute or two. It’s exciting to them, whether you agree with it or not. I keep the conversation general — “what happened? Is he/she okay?” and let them just tell their story — because I have found that most of the time, all they want to so is tell their news bit. It is in a lot of ways no different from “Mom! Dad! My tooth fell out!” “Mrs. XYZ, did you see the fight just now?!”

And with that minute or two typically we can get right back to work. (Even better, I am guaranteed that they are all awake that period!)

By catlady

July 20, 2006 10:53 AM | Link to this

Yes, Gail, I am a teacher. I have been teaching for 33 years, and I still love the kids (ahh, SNY—baby goats!!!) I would not mind a camera in my class but I have virtually no problems with behavior, and when I do I have excellent parental support. I cannot answer for everyone. I teach in a 3-5 school. We do have behavior problems, and it is the same 25 children (out of 600)or so almost every time. Unfortunately, not addressing it effectively means it gives other students the idea that it is okay. Cameras on the buses have been very helpful.

I can say, SNY, that you and I would have some initial problems to work out, given my perception of your attitude(and, apparently, your perception of mine—animals??!!.) However, we WOULD work it out in a way that promotes growth in your child. Ultimately, we are both after the same thing—her education. I find that I can agree with almost all parents on that, and we take it from there. I remember THAT when I am talking to each parent, no matter how ill-informed or irrational-seeming, and I try to listen carefully to what their real concern is. Sometimes I can do something about that, and sometimes I cannot. I also carefully document our conversations, and would not hesitate to bring in an administrator if a parent seems out of control.

By Gwinnett Teacher

July 20, 2006 10:57 AM | Link to this

SNY - To each his own!

My children are not wounded or won’t be denied the pursuit of happiness because I’ve called them goats, monkeys or hyenas! In fact - I think they’re more damaged when I call them Honey, Sweetie, Precious or Sunshine! I have 4 boys, and those endearing terms kill them - maybe I shouldn’t do it in public!!

I’ve never called them anything in anger, besides their entire name - so, I don’t think they’ll call Child Protective Services on me!

By catlady

July 20, 2006 11:01 AM | Link to this

Oh, yeah, and about the “animal” thing: I rarely use “kids”, perferring “class”, “children”, or “students”, but I have on occasion said, “Let me gather up my little chicks”. I feel that, while they are with me, I have taken them under my wings.

There ARE animal terms that can accurately refer to SOME people.

By SNY

July 20, 2006 11:08 AM | Link to this

wwww,

Thank you for addressing my question. I understand your point about if you didn’t care you wouldn’t get upset, but I guess I’m wondering how the follow-up goes. For instance, if a parent gets mad and yells or disciplines their own kid, they can go back later, after they have calmed down and explain the problem and work on a solution. Teachers don’t have that much time and ability so I’m wondering how the student feels after they have been yelled at or scolded at school. Do you have time to explain your position to the child. (I’m mostly talking about little ones here. The middle and high school kids know better, but sometimes, the little ones don’t.) Some kids just generally do not respond to an adult if they feel picked on or jump on for no reason.

OEY!!,

I guess my tone comes across this way because I truly do not trust all teachers. I truly do not believe that the school systems are putting the right type of people in the classrooms. Think of it this way, if you have a conference with an irrate parent who doesn’t want to listen to you and who is out of control, how would you feel the next time that parent has to come in for a scheduled conference. You are going to go on the defense as soon as you see the parents’ name on the list. It is human nature. That is how I feel about Gwinnett County in general. That is why I am doing exactly what SET keeps preaching about. I am changing the environment. I am sure that there are alot of wonderful teachers in Gwinnett county. Gwinnett Teacher on this blog may be. Maybe it is a shame that my child didn’t get her for a teacher but the fact remains that she didn’t. I have to go by the standards that were put before me and I didn’t like them.
I don’t teach my child not to listen to other authority figures. I teach her to use her own judgement and if she really feels that there are certain situations that she has to buck the system, then she should do it. If I feel that she was right, then she was right. If I feel that she was wrong, then the I will back the school up 100%. But we are only talking about going to the restroom.

Gwinnett Teacher,

Answer this question for me. What happens if she really has to go to the restroom and the teacher says no or wait, and she ends up using the restroom in her pants? Then who is to blame? Is that my fault as her parent, her fault as the student, or the teachers fault because she said no? There are some situations that I just will not allow my child to suffer through. This is one of them.

By Gwinnett Teacher

July 20, 2006 11:11 AM | Link to this

This whole “animal” thing is off-topic and petty, but, since it was brought up - how do you feel about the elementary school classes that actually have animal names? I clearly remember when my sons were in elementary school, they were: the Ferguson Frogs, the Miller Mountain Lions, and the Shaker Sharks!

Should I have been offended?

By jim d

July 20, 2006 11:14 AM | Link to this

After reading the many recantations of personal experiences on this blog I have concluded that many educators really don’t understand what’s really going on in the world of education and why the teaching profession has been reduced to the state in which we currently find it.

While I am not an educator I can sometimes sympathize with teachers, I am however an avid reader and I highly recommend a couple of books that some of you may find enlightening.

Why Is Corporate America Bashing Our Public Schools? By Kathy Emery and Susan Ohanian

And

Contradictions of Control (Critical Social Thought Series)) by Linda Mcneil

Enjoy the read

By wwww

July 20, 2006 11:20 AM | Link to this

SNY: You would be surprised - much of what works on little ones in elem school also works wonders at the middle school level!

I have lost my temper with students before, although I have never called them names in anger. I have actually gone back later - even the next day, and spoken to that student directly to make sure we understand each other. Talking in a stern fashion to a child is a fine line to walk, and when I have to employ it, I want to make sure they know where I’m coming from.

By Lisa B.

July 20, 2006 11:24 AM | Link to this

SNY, By telling your child to disobey school rules and insisting laws don’t apply to you, I am afraid you’re setting your child up for many problems fitting into our society. Bathroom breaks can become an issue with some children. My 4th grade students have four bathroom breaks per day,and are not permitted to leave the room during a lesson, test, or student presentations. Over the years, I’ve had a few students ask to use the restroom 3-4 times per YEAR, other than designated times. I let them go. Other children ask daily to use the restroom at times other than the scheduled breaks. I don’t let them go. Often those kids are trying to skip a subject they dislike, meet friends in the bathroom, etc. Lessons can’t be taught, or quiet maintained during tests and presentations when children are walking in and out the door. If a teacher lets one child go out of turn, then several others always ask, the lesson can’t be taught, etc. Please try to understand why the rules are in place before you tell your child to ignore them.

By Gwinnett Teacher

July 20, 2006 11:28 AM | Link to this

SNY - If your child has to use the restroom and is told that she cannot leave the room and has an accident - that would be catastrophic! I teach high school, and I still hear some of the students call people the “Pee Pee Boy” because of a similar incident that happened about 9 years ago!

But, I am not questioning that your child use the restroom in a legitimate emergency. I think what I, and everyone else is concerned with is your openly defiant attitude against teachers, as far as who “rules”. It shouldn’t be a power struggle over who gets to tell your child what she can or cannot do! My own sons know that the teacher has the authority unless they are told to do something illegal or immoral! Their coaches have the authority when they’re on the field unless they are told to do something illegal or immoral! Children need to learn that there are other authority figures in their lives besides their parents.

The law is very clear on this issue (as I have stated earlier) that the teachers have the authority over the children during the school day. If a student was injured in some way due to my negligence while acting in loco parentis - it would be actionable! I would be served, and forced to stand trial.

All I’m trying to say is that sometimes, the teacher is forced to make decisions for their students that are not popular but are made for the well-being of the student and the learning environment as a whole.

Constant classroom disruptions are counterproductive to the teaching-learning process.

I would suggest that your daughter try to get on a restroom schedule, just like the teachers do! My body is trained to know that there are certain times I can go! Of course, there are times when I have to get a teacher to “babysit” for me for a couple of minutes - but, this is a rare occurence.

By SNY

July 20, 2006 11:34 AM | Link to this

catlady,

I don’t walk into a classroom with the thought that the teacher is out to get my daughter. I truly do not believe that any teacher starts out the year ready to jump on a student. I deal with situations as they come up. The restroom situation came up and I addressed it. Bottom line.

HS Teacher Too,

That’s a good approach to the situation. Maybe some of your co-workers should your technique as an example. Everybody wants to feel important and heard. Once you give them their 5 minutes (1 or 2 in your case) of fame, they are satisfied and ready to work.

Aren’t you teachers always upset because the school systems keep making you take classes during the summer. Maybe one of those classes should be about how to settle the class down after a confrontation.

By Leia

July 20, 2006 11:47 AM | Link to this

I’m overseas teaching at Oxford for a mini-session, and, of course, the subject of what schools are like in the States came up.

I pulled up this blog today and the faculty here was shocked! They cannot believe that there is a question of who is in control in schools! Teachers here have clear and definite authority! They are also revered and looked up to also!

This blog is a big hit over here today!

By catlady

July 20, 2006 11:48 AM | Link to this

Maybe the class should be required of administrators and central office staff—how to discipline so that one confrontation is the last one!

By SNY

July 20, 2006 11:49 AM | Link to this

Gwinnett Teacher,

So, if you are saying that you have to leave the class once in awhile, why can’t the students. This happened to my child once in 1 year. Come on people, I’m not an idiot. I know when my child is trying to get over and she is so transparent that her teacher knows as well. Heck, you guys could see us out in public and not know her from anyone else and you would be able to tell. So, if that is the case, and the teacher still says no to my child, you can best believe that she is going.

Again 1 time in the year. She’s not an habitual restroom taker. I will not allow my child to be the child you are speaking of in your post.

Lisa B.,

Rules or no rules, when a younger child says that they have to use the restroom, give them the benefit of the doubt. Just read Gwinnett Teachers post under your own. Would you want to be known as the teacher that put that child in that position so many years later? If you can live with that, then sobeit. But, if my child was in your class and she had to go and you said no, she would walk out. You could waste your time and call me if you want to but I don’t know what you would expect me to do about it.

By DB

July 20, 2006 11:52 AM | Link to this

Here’s how to prepare your kids for kindergarten. Turn off the TV except for Sesame Street and the equivalent. Never underestimate your kids. They all should be able to read well before kindergarten. Sit down with them and teach them the letters(around age 1). Then teach them the sounds the letters make(around age 1.5). Then teach them how to put the sounds together to make short words(2 or 3)while also having them write letters. Then teach them to read starting with appropriate books. By the way, you’re reading to them several times a day from the age of 6 months. Always interact with them, and don’t ever use “baby talk” as it only delays their development. Also at age 1, start teaching them how to count using fingers. Then writing numbers by age 2. Teach them add one digit numbers by age 3 and 2 digits by 4, and 3 by 5. Always talk to your kids and answer their questions, especially in the “why” stage. Never say, “Because I said so!” as that shuts off curiosity. Also, more importantly, teach your kids manners from the getgo(1 year). Kids need to learn that “No” mean “No”, “Yes” means “Yes”, “Hot” means “Hot”, and “Cold” means “Cold”, etc. Let them discover everything around them, and don’t go running to them every time they fall and start crying. And, yes, let them touch things that are hot(not so hot it will burn them), and use it as a time to show what hot means. And they need to learn that they don’t get everything they want by crying. Make them make choices, this or that, etc. by talking to them when they want something. Be consistent. Yes, by doing all this you may think you’re going too fast. What you’re doing is molding your kids brain to become a critical thinker. If this, then that, etc. You’re significantly increasing the learning capacity for your kid for the future. Teach your kid to seek answers and teach himself/herself.

This is what being a parent entails. Too many parents think learning should be left to schools when the parent is the most influential person for the kids whole life. You send your kids to school to learn what a parent can’t teach, how to survive outside the family and how to learn specialized information. Unfortunately, most of our schools don’t even teach that.

Sue: The reason middle schoolers should walk quietly in the hall(as with any other grade) is so the learn self-control and respect for others, which practically our whole society lacks. And that way they don’t interrupt other classes. Kids need to learn that there is a time for play and a time for being quiet and/or doing as your told.

We, as a society, underestimate the capabilities of our children.

By DB

July 20, 2006 11:53 AM | Link to this

Oh, and I forgot. Play with your kids and let them play as play is nothing more than learning.

By DB

July 20, 2006 11:58 AM | Link to this

Sue: I take back the quiet hall thing. I was thinking younger kids holding hands, etc., and the Middle School thing didn’t register. It’s probably just another “overkill” program similar to zero tolerance where a principal is trying to prevent tardiness to class and fights in the hallways when in reality kids should just be held accountable for being tardy or fighting anywhere, let alone the hallways.

By Manny

July 20, 2006 11:58 AM | Link to this

SNY - let’s just bottom line this:

Gwinnett County Public Schools and anyone associated with them are evil, underqualified and your children will never set foot in one again, as long as there is breath in your body.

You’ve taken your daughter out and put her back in private school, where she will come home skipping, happy, and smarter than ever before.

The only problem I foresee is that paying for private school will not allow you to give your Bishop Eddie T. Long as much money each week to support his and his wife’s lavish lifestyle!

By DB

July 20, 2006 12:07 PM | Link to this

Jim Dumond: Great Point! The reason our schools are so terrible is mostly because of the fact that schools cave in to the loudest parents(as if they know anything about educating). It leads to those who can’t see that learning self-control and self-accountability are most important running the schools. It’s equivalent to the inmates running the asylum. They should listen more to the quiet parents. :)

By Lisa B.

July 20, 2006 12:15 PM | Link to this

I had a boy one year, who always had to go to the bathroom when the math lesson started. Our class bathroom break was right before math. I was certain the boy was playing in the bathroom during the break and just wanted to get out of math. Finally, at his mother’s request, I let the boy leave class during the math lesson to go to the bathroom. He usually stayed gone 20 minutes or so. I didn’t fetch him, because I was teaching the math lesson. On the progress report, the boy was failing math. I explained to the mother that her son didn’t know how to do the work because he was never in class to do the lesson. The mother still wanted her son to be able to leave the room whenever he wanted. I was able to drag him through 4th grade, but he failed 5th grade, and later 7th grade. There is no reason for children to repeatedly get into emergency bathroom situations. I think some children play or socialize rather than use the facilities, but I am not going to have instructional time disrupted by children who don’t follow the procedures. Of course, any child may have an OCCASSIONAL emergencies. The repeat offenders are trying to get control of the class, avoid instruction, etc.

By DB

July 20, 2006 12:15 PM | Link to this

SET: You should encourage your kid to go the bathroom between classes and before school. There’s no reason a kid can’t hold it until the end of class(or the end of a quiz or test for that matter). If you’re kid has a medical problem, it should be registered with the school nurse, and then the teachers can be notified that she needs to go the bathroom on demand. And you advocating for your kid to break the rules on going to the bathroom is one thing, but to go in and bend people over so she won’t suffer the consequences is another thing. When you told your kid to just get up and go, you should have told her to be willing to accept the consequences, period. And, you want your cake and to eat it, too.

By catlady

July 20, 2006 12:21 PM | Link to this

Here is what runs through my mind in bathroom situations (and this is NOT addressed to SNY, whose daughter does NOT have a problem with her bladder, etc, etc). My children get a group break before the class starts. Then, if some one needs to go again we go through the “why didn’t you go before?” routine. I send them on, with them vowing that they will go with the class the next time. If there is a next time, I ask them to wait 5 minutes while I give basic instructions. Then I give them a silent signal. (Of course, exceptions, as teachers know, open the “floodgates” on the bathroom.) Anyone who says they can’t wait, I send on.

If it is a frequent thing, I talk to the child about “bathroom planning”. If it continues, or is frequent throughout the period, I talk to the child’s other teachers. Is it going on there? Is there a pattern? I will ask the nurse to call the parent to see if the child goes frequently at home, what have they noticed, etc. I think about bladder infections and diabetes. We strongly suggest a doctor’s visit and note from the doctor. This usually clears things up, one way or another. If the parent refuses to take the child, the school social worker becomes involved. I start worrying about sexual abuse. (You see, SNY, we have to worry about all kinds of things. It isn’t just tee-tee anymore. I HAVE to report concerns about abuse.) So while it sounds like a basic thing, there is far more involved. In addition to the individual concerns, there is the whole thing about the rest of the class using the “emergency” route to get out of class. My first focus, however, is the individual child. If something is interfering with their being in my class, I want to solve it. I am big-headed enought to think being in my class is important!

By DB

July 20, 2006 12:23 PM | Link to this

My last post was toward SNY, not SET. Sorry SET.

By catlady

July 20, 2006 12:25 PM | Link to this

Now, could we PLEASE get off SNY’s daughter’s bladder?!:) However, I agree the parental control issue she demonstrates is a legitimate point for discussion, since it has a lot to do with a lot that goes on in school.

By SNY

July 20, 2006 12:31 PM | Link to this

Manny,

First of all, if you guys do not like my tone about public school, you really are going to hate my tone about my Bishop. LEAVE HIM ALONE!!!! WE GIVE THE BISHOP A LOVE OFFERING. THAT IS WHAT HE LIVES OFF OF. HE DOES NOT GET A SALARY FROM THE CHURCH!! DO NOT SPEAK ON WHAT YOU DO NOT KNOW.

By DB

July 20, 2006 12:32 PM | Link to this

I know someone who referes to his students as APES. The students love it. Of course, APES means Advanced Placement Environmental Science.

By DB

July 20, 2006 12:37 PM | Link to this

Here’s a question as a parent. Why do I have to send my kids to private school for them to be surrounded by kids that behave and kids that care about learning? In other words, why is it so difficult to have such a situation in a public school? I know I’m opening up a can of worms, but let them squirm.

By Velatra

July 20, 2006 12:37 PM | Link to this

SNY, I was with you until the part where you said that your daughter was given permission to disobey her teacher on the bathroom issue. Yes, I know that some children have needs where they must use the restroom more than others. For those issues, I ask the parents to let me know about it up front. Then, I allow those kids to go whenever necessary. However, for others, there are designated times that I take my students to the restroom. In my experience, and so many other teachers’, I have had those kids that will ask to go to restroom, and they do everything in there but use the restroom. It has also been my experiecne that when one person has to go, soon, all the other bladders start to overflow. It’s the “herd mentality”, and, no, I’m not calling my students animals.

Manny, Please don’t start a fight by disparaging SNY’s pastor. No matter what you think of him, it’s not necessary to add more fuel to this fiery blog.

To those parents who are asking questions about what teachers want/expect, I thank you in advance for caring enough about your child to work with the teacher. Your concern is most likely going to help your child to be successful.

By jim d

July 20, 2006 12:43 PM | Link to this

Leia,

Have y’all concluded if this blog is in the toilet today?

By Competitive

July 20, 2006 12:46 PM | Link to this

For those of you who don’t understand the situation in public schools today, let me fill in some gaps that may help you understand the need for silent transition.

My junior high (7-9) in Tennessee had a bell schedule, meaning that every single student in the school changed classes at exactly the same time. Therefore, you did not disrupt others in class when you were talking in the hallway. When the class traveled the hallway during class time, we were expected to be silent and received punishments if we were not. Georgia’s middle schools have so many students, so little cafeteria space, and so little hallway space that it is impossible to create a true bell schedule for the school.

Also, the school was actually designed for the number of students who attended. Most schools in Georgia started as a certain size, then had an addition built, then another, and often another. Now schools that should have 500 kids are housing 2000 kids, but the hallways are still only wide enough for the original number of students. This leads to huge crowds in the hallways.

Most schools are turning to silent transition as a last resort to overcome these basic problems and the problem of students failing to understand their environment. At my junior high, teachers and administrators monitored the hallway for noise level and other problems even though we were allowed to talk. We ere allowed to TALK, not YELL. So many kids today do not understand the old “inside voice” that we were all taught as kids. Teachers and administrators still monitor the hallway, but kids today have no problem lying about their name, getting confrontational with any adult who kindly asks them to lower their voice, will run away when asked to stop, etc. There are 2 main reasons for this type of behavior: schools are so big that no one knows all of the students by name and the kids know that they can lie to their parents if they get in trouble and their parents will come to the school and get them out of any punishments.

As with any business, you don’t always get to make decisions in a perfect situation. Schools constantly have to make decisions that are the lesser of several evils. Silent transition is far less a punishment than it is a response to a lack of resources and student self-discipline. And it does improve student behavior: less fights, less down-time at the beginning of class, less time in the counselor’s office because some girl was talking to my boyfriend.

I challenge all you complainers out there to come up with a solution instead of always complaining about the solutions of others.

By catlady

July 20, 2006 12:46 PM | Link to this

EVERYONE (especially teachers) :) should be loved as much as Bishop Long. Let’s keep this post to ed matters.

By catlady

July 20, 2006 12:53 PM | Link to this

Competitive’s observations are right on the mark!

By DB

July 20, 2006 12:58 PM | Link to this

Competitive: Great points! Most people on the outside have no idea what’s going on in schools today. My common sense solutions are to limit school sizes, ignore disruptive parents, and hand out appropriate and consistent consequences for actions. We can’t do any of these listening to the loudmouths and lawyers.

By jim d

July 20, 2006 12:58 PM | Link to this

Dear competitive,

The solution’s to school overcrowding has been around for years but few have listened.

Year Round Multi-track scheduling eliminates about a third of the students in school at any particular time and has worked well in areas of the country where parents have kept an open mind.

By SET

July 20, 2006 01:00 PM | Link to this

I think it was Mr. Liberty that once said the state schools are hopeless and everyone should homeschool..

If this dialog represents what public school teachers are worried about, it provides evidence Mr. Liberty is correct.

SNY and her child would be shown the door at a good private school. She would be laughed at at our public schools. Nobody takes orders from her and if they have to deal with her kids, the kids had better obey or begone.

The difference between people who are in County Jail and those who aren’t is that the jailbirds never learned to obey authority and to not call attention to themselves (unless they had something legal to sell). The mothers of these jailbirds (where are the fathers anyway? - in institutions or dead?) usually brought them up full of their “rights” and with an exaggerated sense of self importance (and the mother’s own place in society?)

The public schools excerbate the problem by not cutting these personalities down to size.

Blacks are generally public schooled and nowadays have a radically higher ratio in jail or prison compared to 1950 when they didn’t. This is largely because the public schools abandoned their historical role in civilizing and socializing immigrants and lower class so we could have upward mobility.

Regardless of the bastardy rate - if the schools would step up to the plate and socialize (housebreak) spoiled and self-centered badly raised people, they would have better lives after they left school.

Mission One for the public schools should be to improve the students standing on Mortality Tables (involving premature death and institutionalization) and after that to train them to have the best chance possible in life. If Silent Transition and Bathroom training is part of the program - so be it. It’s interesting that we are all talking at such basic levels.

Our British readers should take no satisfaction in this because by my reading their open borders are bringing them down to these levels at a slower pace than we have had here.

Because the US had changed it’s social policies in the mid 20th Century - We now have (as predicted in TBC) the rise of a hereditary upper class who live, school, date, marry and work mainly with each other. This new overclass will go theough their lives without any meaningful social contact with the lower class. Speech will be one of the defining features (as in “telephone test”). And the classes will be so far apart in mores that they will barely understand each other.

This may sound familiar to the UK.

The USA’s Open Borders ensures we will have a new majority-minority ethnic who are smarter than the blacks but not smarter than the other existing USA groups to be the new laborers. And they make real good prison guards.

Political power on every level will flow to the overclass because the lower class are too stupid to vote anyway and no matter which candidate wins, the overclass will win. You may note that since the late 20th Century the electoral process in the USA has changed to make incumbents nearly impossible to unseat (gerrymandering, among other tactics). The final stroke to finish that process will be public funding of candidates, thus cementing the power of the incumbency and preventing the rise of independents.

Too bad about the public schools. All my extended family are in private schools anyway.

How many people think this is all an accident?

Brave New World.

By DB

July 20, 2006 01:01 PM | Link to this

It used to be that parents would only talk to the school in extreme situations giving latitude, instead of attitude, to teachers and administrators. Now, it’s the first thing a parent does. They hover around their little precious ones like helicopters bailing them out of almost every situation teaching them almost nothing about real life.

By jim d

July 20, 2006 01:16 PM | Link to this

DB,

Can you really fault parents?

Are you aware of the liberties taken by educators today against students? Are you aware that our schools have invaded our childrens personal lives outside of the school? Have you never heard of actions taken by the schools against students for things that happened outside of school and completely away from the property? I Have. So faulting parents for taking an offensive stand against a school may not really be in order. Many of us were taught the best defense is a strong offense.

By catlady

July 20, 2006 01:30 PM | Link to this

Jim d Can you really fault schools? Are you aware of how many personal life problems are dropped on the school on a daily basis? Problems that we are supposed to SOLVE as well as teach at the same time? The schools have taken little that hasn’t been pushed onto them from the outside. We’d love it if the students’ personal lives were left at the door so we COULD teach.

By Gwinnett Teacher

July 20, 2006 01:33 PM | Link to this

jim d- Two years ago, our football coach threw a player off of the team because he’d gotten a DUI with a learner’s permit after curfew! Do you think the coach was wrong?

By SET

July 20, 2006 01:40 PM | Link to this

Gwinnett Teacher:

Good for the coach. Often the football coaches and his discipline is the only experience black males get with an alpha male outside of police encounters.

By jim d

July 20, 2006 01:46 PM | Link to this

Gwinnett Teach,

No that was not wrong but the difference is that athletes are voluntarilly subject to team rules that specifically apply to off campus incidents and behavior.

By wwww

July 20, 2006 01:46 PM | Link to this

Jim d:

Could you be more specific? It can depend on the circumstances. Please elaborate on these instances of liberty infringement.

By jim d

July 20, 2006 01:51 PM | Link to this

Catlady,

You ask if I can really fault the schools for interjecting themselves into personal issues that have absolutely nothing to do with the school?

To be quite frank dear, YES!

By jim d

July 20, 2006 01:53 PM | Link to this

Without becoming too specific, I’ll just say it had to do with a web site that bashed a teacher. Does that one ring a bell?

By wwww

July 20, 2006 02:02 PM | Link to this

jim d:

I’m not familiar with that case, I remember hearing a blurb on the news and that’s about it.

Sometimes, the school is left with very little choice. Catlady has a point - often, things are dumped in the school’s lap. It’s a damned if you do and damned if you don’t situation pretty much.

I understand why you would feel this way since you don’t work in education. I too would have this point of view if I hadn’t witnessed several situations where there wasn’t any other choice except for the school to take some action.

By DB

July 20, 2006 02:07 PM | Link to this

Jim D: And I believe that all students voluntarily(by going to school) agree to be subject to rules that specifically apply to off-campus incidents and behavior. Otherwise, mom and dad can homeschool them.

By catlady

July 20, 2006 02:08 PM | Link to this

jim d:Thanks for the “dear.” I don’t think you paraphrased me the way I intended. What my observation is: schools are continually GIVEN more and more of what used to be “outside, personal” stuff to take care of and monitor. Sometimes it seems like we take it on voluntarily, but many times it just becomes our job.

By DB

July 20, 2006 02:12 PM | Link to this

Jim: I’ve seen you promote private education quite a lot. What you need to realize is that private schools govern what kids do outside of school even more than public schools. To me, that’s ok. And, as for you, I would therefore think you wouldn’t like private education.

By jim d

July 20, 2006 02:14 PM | Link to this

wwww,

The incident I mentioned really wasn’t one the school should have interjected itself into. The web site was allegedly slanderous towards a teacher. We have civil laws pretaining to slander and this should have been in civil court but the school elected to suspend the students involved even though nothing about the web site was ever done with school computers or on school time.

So the balls back in your court. Please explain how this was NOT an infringement of the students liberties.

By jim d

July 20, 2006 02:16 PM | Link to this

DB, “I believe that all students voluntarily(by going to school) agree to be subject to rules that specifically apply to off-campus incidents and behavior.”

Now thats humor!!LOL

School attendance is dictated by law.

By DB

July 20, 2006 02:20 PM | Link to this

So the teacher should be free to slander the student on his or her website for your same argument? How do you think that would pan out. The student disrespected the teacher. This one is on the line, and maybe the school made a mistake. This is not a common occurence. You can’t base all public schools on this one instance. Also, keep in mind that we don’t have all the information as found in the press.

By SNY

July 20, 2006 02:20 PM | Link to this

Velatra,

Again, would you have preferred that I let my daughter wet herself in school? Please tell me what you would do if a child wet themself in your class because you didn’t allow them to use the restroom.

Parents,

It is funny that not ONE of these teachers will answer this one little question.

SET,

I did have this problem in private school and you are absolutely wrong, they did not kick me out. As a matter of fact, the principal supported me 100%. He informed all of the younger grades (K4-2nd) that if a child asks to go to the restroom to let them. There was not one teacher who later complained that the students took advantage of this new policy. Sorry to burst your bubble, but this time, I won that battle.

By DB

July 20, 2006 02:22 PM | Link to this

Jim: No, you don’t have to send your kids to school if you don’t want to. There are other requirements you can meet by either homeschooling or private school.

By Gwinnett Teacher

July 20, 2006 02:22 PM | Link to this

jim d - The school conduct behavior code is applicable:

Off the school grounds when the misconduct is directed at a school student or employee and is related to the victim’s school affiliation, or when the off-campus misconduct directly affects the safety and welfare of the school community or the orderly mission and function of the school.

This is in the 2006-07 Student Handbook that is given out during the first week of school. Every parent is required to sign that they’ve received it, but, I bet hardly anyone reads it.

By DB

July 20, 2006 02:26 PM | Link to this

Delayed Response…

Jim: I do fault parents, and I also fault schools for listening too much to the bad parents.

SET: You were on a role until you went on another white supremacy/Bell Curve rant and never mentioned the fact that there are lot of white people equivalent to those in your “black” and “immigrant” stereotypes, and there are a lot of variables besides genetics. Also, the reason why your extended family is in private school is most likely because of a combination of being born into wealthy families, working hard, and working smartly, not totally because of genetics. It has more to do with availablility of education, early stimulation, and the willingness to take advantage of it, i.e., parents giving you stimulating attention, discipline, and persistence, which has little do with genetics. There are plenty of poor people, black people, and latino people rising to the top because of their genetics, work ethic, and willingness to ignore the past. My regards to Powell, Rice, Gonzalez, and many others. Oh, and I’m white.

I do not differ with you in that there is a “cognitive elite”, but I do differ with you in that it’s more like a “wealthy elite”. One smart person in a family line of wealth sure can make those after him or her look very smart. I can tell you that listening to the recent Georgia debates, none of the candidates are anything near a cognitive elite.

By SNY

July 20, 2006 02:30 PM | Link to this

DB,

Side not from last week.

I spoke with my husband this weekend and we have decided that I would try a different approach with my daughter. We sat her down, gave her all of her chores, and we decided to let her handle her weekly chores her way. In exchange, mommy will change the tone in which I speak to her. She did tell me that sometimes it hurt her feelings and I felt like sh*t!!! (I would have used another word but I didn’t want to sugar-coat it.) So, since Saturday, I have not had to remind her of anything and as of last night, all of her weekly chores were done and I have not had to have a cross word with her all week.

Thank you from the BOTTOM of my heart for your suggestions. (I’m crying while I type this.) She actually seems happier already.

By DB

July 20, 2006 02:31 PM | Link to this

SNY: Your kid would not have wet her pants. This is getting old. The potty issue is an age old power struggle between teacher and student. I have told kids several times to go ahead and wet their pants or go into the corner after they threatened to do so. But I told them they would suffer the consequences. Not once has this happened. You sound like a power hungry student yourself. You can bet if a kid did wet his or her pants, as a teacher I would be ready to resign because mommy would be right behind her getting me fired. So be it.

By Gwinnett Teacher

July 20, 2006 02:34 PM | Link to this

SNY - I cannot count the number of times that I’ve told a student that they couldn’t leave the room to use the restroom, and I have NEVER had one wet themself! Furthermore, when the bell rings to dismiss class - I say to the student, “You can use the restroom now”, and 10 times out of 10 - they just look at me and give me a sheepish grin because they knew that they were busted! Honestly, if one of my students wet themselves, I would probably do the same thing - from shock!

I just hope that you rethink your stance about disobedience towards teachers.

By luvs2teach

July 20, 2006 02:36 PM | Link to this

SNY, I’ll be happy to answer your question, because the bathroom issue is the bane of my existence as a middle school teacher, and the one time I really had an issue with a parent was over this. Realize however, that I teach 8th grade, and that most elementary schools built in the last in years have bathrooms IN THE CLASSROOM for the little ones.

NO, I would not prefer your daughter wet her pants. To suggest otherwise is ludicrous. However, I think you need to talk to your child about asking before it became an emergency and working within the classroom rules.

I know you think you are empowering your daughter - she’s still young. What you are doing though is empowering her to have a lot of problems when she becomes a teenager and wants to question all authority - including yours.

We are told by administration not to send children out unless it is an emergency. As you read on the cellphone blog, not all “bathroom emergencies” are even bathroom related! I don’t know all the specifics, so maybe your child’s teacher made a bad judgment call, but to tell your child to just walk out is not the best way to approach the problem, IMHO. Teach her about better planning - who knows, maybe she’ll be a teacher and will have to wait even longer periods of time for a restroom break!

By Velatra

July 20, 2006 02:39 PM | Link to this

I just can’t hold my peace!! SET, I, for one, am so sick and tired of your usually too long rhetoric about how blacks are the reason for the poor discipline and other ills in the public schools. What’s even sadder is that you are black yourself. Were black kids responsible for Columbine, Paducah, Heritage, and other school shootings? I can go into others, but I won’t because it would be a waste of time.

I do not hold your opinions in the same realm of those truthful comments made by Bill Cosby. Why? Because he puts his money where is mouth is and does more than just “talk the talk”. How many black kids have YOU mentored? When was the last time YOU walked into a school and volunteered YOUR services and knowledge, since you know so much?

I’m sorry, y’all, but Momma’s tired!!

By catlady

July 20, 2006 02:39 PM | Link to this

SNY—NO ONE wants any child to wet themselves. Sometimes we have a child who will do it for attention, getting sent home, etc. If it was a one time thing, the teacher could have handled it differently. However, I suspect there is more to this than meets the eye…. I suspect this will rear its head again in some other way, but… Let’s talk about something other than this!

By wwww

July 20, 2006 02:39 PM | Link to this

I can’t make much of a judgment on the explanation you gave. I would really need the whole story. What I can say is that things are very different since Columbine. If a school feels as though a student is somehow threatening another student or a teacher outside of school, then it does become an issue. This can even be an indirect form of slander I would imagine, but again, I don’t know as I’m not involved in this one. Unfortunately, sometimes kids vent and not always in the most intelligent way - they don’t mean anything by it - but now, no one is willing to take ANY chances with safety. I have to say I agree with this position. Personal rights are very important, don’t get me wrong, but sometimes, and I mean sometimes, they should and do take a back seat to the safety of the masses.

By DB

July 20, 2006 02:45 PM | Link to this

SNY: That’s good. Your kid has the discipline at home and now feels more in control of her destiny by giving her the chores, and she probably feels on the top of the world because you put trust in her. Now I ask you this. I could be misinterpreting you, but it seems like you’re too quick to defend her at school. Try letting her work out her problems and suffer consequences. Let her make the choice of whether or not to obey others by accepting the consequences if she doesn’t.

By catlady

July 20, 2006 02:46 PM | Link to this

We may not be able to segue into this, and no one may have interest in it, but, here goes: What should happen when a student labeled “gifted” starts failing in his regular classes? I’d love to hear what others think about this.

By SNY

July 20, 2006 02:53 PM | Link to this

You teachers sure do stick up for yourselves don’t you. Everything always has to be the parents fault. Or the fault of a 7 year old for not using better judgement to use the restroom. That is absolutely terrible. Students don’t stand a chance against you guys. It is as bad as the blue wall in the police department.

By Velatra

July 20, 2006 02:53 PM | Link to this

SNY, Apparently, you must’ve skimmed my post. If a parent tells me that his/her child needs to go more often than others, I let the child whenever he/she needs to. All the student has to do is raise a finger.

My own daughter has an immature bladder (she’s 5), so I understand the situation. That is why I inform her teachers. All it takes is a little communication.

I have also had girls that have begun to menstruate (yes, in 4th grade) in my class. We establish a code so that they can handle their business whenever they need to without the rest of the class knowing. For some, I found out through their mothers. Once again, it’s about communication.

By Gwinnett Teacher

July 20, 2006 02:57 PM | Link to this

jim d - Here’s some more for you -

Regardless of intent a student shall not make oral or written communication, create a document, or make a symbolic gesture or contact of a threatening, distracting, or provoking nature to or about a person/student or in the presence of a person/ student. This includes, but is not limited to, bullying, disrespectful conduct, insult, use of profanity, ethnic, racial, sexual, disability, or religious slur, or harassment and includes the development of a “hit list”, “people to kill”, “people to shoot”, or a statement about bringing a weapon to school and injuring people.

By Velatra

July 20, 2006 03:01 PM | Link to this

SNY, I forgot to add this. I have had a couple of kids to wet their clothes in my 7 years of teaching. I called the parents to bring a change of clothes and explain the situation honestly. If it happened because I wouldn’t let them, I apologize profusely and ask if there’s a medical problem, which determines if they would go into go-whenever-necessary group. Haven’t had any backlash due to my policy.

Finally, a teacher who answered your question. ;-) Next?

By Just Wondering

July 20, 2006 03:04 PM | Link to this

SNY - I suggest that you never let your children out of your sight! No sports, cheerleading, clubs - NOTHING! Don’t put your children in any situation where another adult will have authority over your children. Coaches and sponsors will avoid your children like the plague, because they don’t want to deal with you! Perhaps you could have 6 or 7 more children and you can form your own teams!

By SET

July 20, 2006 03:07 PM | Link to this

DB:

You may decide that TBC’s observations that some ethnics have a different distribution of IQ is “White Supremecy”. I don’t see it that way. We know the US Whites (Ethnic Irish, for example) have distinctly lower IQs to the Chinese and Japanese. When is the last time you saw Asians take over nearly every Major American city’s Civil Service 2 or 3 generations after Ellis Island?

Higher IQ doesn’t make an individual “Supreme” by a long shot. It does make tham different than someone else with a lower IQ. At some point being too smart can get you dead. Remember the Holocaust?

I have no problem hiring smarter people to get me what I want. But in my family group, my youngest sibling is the richest. I make a tenth as much per year. I just have to get by on my six figures a year. It’s hard being shown up, though. And several of my cousins are doing better than me. Do you see the tears running down my face? I didn’t go to Stanford. And I didn’t go into the sciences (medicine and engineering) after undergrad breath requirements. Grandpa had a PhD in Chemistry and I don’t. Boy am I dumb…

But I’m happy enough. Smart is relative. You have to make the most of everything you have to work with. Something we now ensure urban US Blacks don’t by saddling them with rotten public schools that don’t discipline them.

Yes the different ethnics have different average IQ and that’s why Sub-Sahara Africa can’t develop a two story mud hut - or maintain a civilization. Deal with it.

By DB

July 20, 2006 03:10 PM | Link to this

I’m not saying all problems are a result of bad parenting, just most problems. There are bad teachers out there, but unfortunately, because of the overwhelming numbers of bad parents, good teachers get fired, and bad teachers stay(because they constantly placate and lower expectations).

By DB

July 20, 2006 03:12 PM | Link to this

SNY: Also, I keep forgetting that you’re kid is young, and my experiences are with older kids(when they have no problem controlling their bladder). So take my potty comments and relate them to middle school and high school.

By Counting the days...

July 20, 2006 03:14 PM | Link to this

SNY….if you ever put your child back in public school, would you please give us a warning? Sheesh.

By SNY

July 20, 2006 03:21 PM | Link to this

Just,

You have no clue what you are talking about. My daughter does cheer and she is part of an acting and modeling group. She takes kinderdance classes and each and every one of her coaches and teachers love her. They say that she is a pleasure to deal with and a delight to have around. They also tell me that she takes direction very well. She just did a video shoot for a religious group and was on the set for hours. They want her back to do more video shoots because she behaved so well. She sat still, read her summer reading books and stayed out of the way. So don’t tell me that my child will not be able to make it in the real world. She is already earning a paycheck and making it in the real world. And she is only 8 years old. Her cheerleading coach is also excited to have her back on the squad. She isn’t the best cheerleader, but she earned the “Most Improved” certificate at the end of last season because she dedicated herself to make sure that she didn’t mess up during Cheer-Off. And you know what, she didn’t. Her routine was perfect!! I know better than you teachers what my child is capable of. She is not a liar. If she does something wrong, she will admit it. Just like Jim D. says, she just has to deal with the consequences. She isn’t perfect, she’s 8. But she isn’t running around the school doing whatever she pleases either. As for the coaches not wanting to deal with me, I was the squad mom for cheerleading, I am actively involved in the acting and modeling school, I have been class mom for 3 years and all my neighbors kids love to come to my house to play. They trust their kids with me because they know that I am not going to do anything to hurt them.

Just,

You don’t know anything. You read my posts and maybe they do come across as hard-nosed and difficult. Maybe to teachers who think they know everything I am their worst nightmare, but oh well. I believe it was “catlady” that said that we would be able to come to a clear understanding about each of our roles. That is true with any teacher. I am there for them if they need me, but they better be sure that my child was wrong before they call me.

I bet you you would meet my daughter and fall in love with her on the spot. I know I did.

By SNY

July 20, 2006 03:28 PM | Link to this

Counting,

Sleep very easy at night. My child will never step foot in another public school as long as she lives. Except for cheerleading. You guys aren’t patient enough for those of us used to private school. I really think that my experience was so totally terrible because private schools have more time to devote to nurturing the child as well as teach the child. My child feels like she matters at private school, she didn’t think that anyone gave a dmn in public. And she was right, they didn’t give a dmn. And that was before we had problems.

By Fulton Teacher

July 20, 2006 03:28 PM | Link to this

As a HS teacher, I have some information for parents which may have already been stated, but bears repeating.
1. If you communicate with me I will respond. (Especially if you email, since I can do that right away from my classroom, and I have to wait to find a phone and time to make a call). My email address is on my syllabus, of which you get a copy. Check my website for homework and other assignments 2. Please be engaged and interested in your child’s education - it’s easier for all of us if you are. Come to open house night, come for conferences. Please read the syllabus which we send home each year. 3. While we teachers are often overworked, sometimes frustrated and only human, most of us DO care very much about teaching each and every child we have in our (often overcrowded) classrooms. 4. Please have your child keep his/her IPOD/CELLPHONE, etc. at home, or at least OFF. Do NOT call him/her @ school during class (yes, this happens). We have to take the phone away, and then we’re the bad guys.
Thank you! Here’s to a good new school year.

By SNY

July 20, 2006 03:34 PM | Link to this

DB,

About your earlier post about defending my daughter, I feel like I must because I’m her mom. I only defend her when she is right. I support the school when she has been wrong. The only problem is that she has been right more than she has been wrong, IMHO.

But, your advice has been so good to me so far that I promise when school starts I will try. But I don’t forsee having the same types of problems now that she is back in the school where she belongs. Again, THANK YOU!!

By DB

July 20, 2006 03:34 PM | Link to this

Sub-Sahara can’t develop because of a long line of self-serving culture, religion, lack of economy and infrastructure, and corrupt government that has no concern for its people. I suppose you forget about places like North Korea, Laos, Indonesia, Viet nam, all the “Stans”, India, China, etc. who all have a long history of a lack of development although their average “IQ’s” would be higher according to TBC. There are plenty of people smart enough to make things better in each of those countries, and some are getting better, and some are not. The differences in IQ you mention have more to do with valuing education and cultural definitions of success than genetics, and the differences in average IQ’s are very minor anyway. If you’re running away from a lion, you only have to run faster than your friend next to you. What you’re seeing now in the U.S., since things are becoming more equal, are more minorites rising to the top, and it has only little to do with IQ. There is plenty “IQ” even in poor populations. This trend will not stop, however, the poor that complain they’ve had it tough will continue to swell, white, black, and latino.

Success can be measured in many different ways. We’re back to our old argument. I just disagree with you that genetics and IQ are the major factors. They are necessary, but almost everyone has enough brainpower if they use it.

One thing you and I do agree with is that our schools need to put in real expectations and real selectivity to let people end up where they should.

I’m done with the IQ debate, and I hope you are, too.

By SNY

July 20, 2006 03:37 PM | Link to this

Fulton Teacher,

I’m sorry but I just cannot believe that you have parents calling their kids in the middle of class. What are they thinking. And you guys think that I’m a bad parent? What are these parent, saints? They are worse than I am!!

By jim d

July 20, 2006 03:39 PM | Link to this

Gwinnett Teach,

I HAVE READ the policy on several occasions but that by no means makes it a good policy or even legal for that matter.

In the case I mentioned, as I recall the courts agreed and the school had to re-instate the student, even striking the incident from his record. Keep in mind that your school system (Gwinnett) spends literally millions of dollars settling many incidents like this out of court. Oh, yeah I forgot, you wouldn’t know that since they generally settle with tax dollars and require a non-disclosure agreement on the settlement.

By DB

July 20, 2006 03:40 PM | Link to this

Culture can and does cripple.

By Fulton Teacher

July 20, 2006 03:44 PM | Link to this

Hi SNY - yeah - unfortunately, it does happen that parents are the ones who call during the school day. They’re sometimes trying to leave a message (hoping the kid has his/her phone off like he/she’s supposed to) but sometimes they’re expecting an answer. It’s a bit ridiculous, but here you have it. Other times it’s kids texting each other, or cheating on tests (see the cellphone blog on this issue).

By Velatra

July 20, 2006 03:45 PM | Link to this

SNY,

As I did with Manny on your and your pastor’s behalf, I would like to admonish you to not make disparaging statements about public teachers. ALL public school teachers are not vicious control freaks, just like ALL parents are not kid-coddling, lawsuit seeking opportunists who think that the schools are just babysitting centers.

Just so you’ll know, I began my teaching career at a Christian private school. As in public schools, there were both positives and negatives. As for the students, there were some who needed to have their butts whipped for their actions. I even had two fifth grade students to roll up pieces of tissue to look like marijuana joints. When I sent them to the principal, she sent them back to me to proofread their one-paragraph essays on “An Idol Mind” (she gave them this topic). I sent them back to her, with a note that said that “idle” was misspelled. Some consequence!

As a fellow Christian, I have learned to never say never. God is the One who is in control. Due to circumstances beyond your control, your daughter may have to go to public school. There are many excellent public schools, like Narvie J. Harris and Bouie (in DeKalb County). If she does have to go to one, I pray that you, your daughter, and her teachers will be successful.

By Gwinnett Teacher

July 20, 2006 03:46 PM | Link to this

jim d - You’d be surprised at what I know! My younger brother is an attorney; my best friend’s husband is a sheriff; and my brother in law works for the FBI! I know pretty much everything that happens in this neck of the woods!

By jim d

July 20, 2006 03:53 PM | Link to this

Gwinnett Teach,

Then you know me!

By Velatra

July 20, 2006 03:55 PM | Link to this

Sorry, SNY. I meant to say “disparaging statements about ALL public school teachers”. It’s hard to hold a baby and type with one hand at the same time. ;-)

By SNY

July 20, 2006 03:57 PM | Link to this

Velatra,

In my heart of hearts, I know that not all of the teachers in Gwinnett County are like the one that I experienced this year. The problem is that I don’t want to take my chances with another whole year of my daughter’s life and education. I’m sure you can understand that.

I wish that I could have found a public school that I liked. I moved to my neighborhood because Gwinnett is “suppose” to be the best. I guess “best” is relative. If I had to do over, I would have moved closer to church in Lithonia and put her in Browns Mill. I think that is the name of it.

By SET

July 20, 2006 03:58 PM | Link to this

DB: I like that part about almost everyone having enough brainpower if they use it. Now if the schools could just provide more motivation for the students to think before they act.

By jim d

July 20, 2006 04:06 PM | Link to this

Oh and Gwinnett Teach,

Ask your brother the attorney how this applies to making a statement about a teacher on a web site.

“to or about a person/student or in the presence of a person/ student”

Note that this applies to “person / student” not a person / teacher.

By DB

July 20, 2006 04:08 PM | Link to this

SET: Now that we have our differences behind us, we can move forward. I can’t agree more that students need to be motivated to think before they act. Unfortunately, this problems should have been addressed 15 or more years ago, and it’s a behemoth right now. It will get ugly at first, but it needs to be done.

I guess it boils down to one question. How can we, as a people, put appropriate discipline and expectations back into schools?

By Gwinnett Teacher

July 20, 2006 04:14 PM | Link to this

jim d - I can actually answer that one! A teacher IS a person, regardless of what you may think :)

By Velatra

July 20, 2006 04:18 PM | Link to this

Browns Mills is a good school and has a principal that is dedicated to her students. She has made the school a “sugar-free” school, which shows her commitment to her students’ health, as well as their academics.

Shoot, as a sugar-loving diabetic, I probably need to work at her school. ;-)

By jim d

July 20, 2006 04:19 PM | Link to this

OH, OH,

I know the answer to this one DB!!!

Paddle the kids that act out and fire incompetent teachers, rid ourselves (at the polls) of all politicians that would use our children as pawns for re-election and make school supers. responsive to the people they serve by making it an elected position once more

By jim d

July 20, 2006 04:21 PM | Link to this

Gwinnett Teach, Never said they weren’t. Ask brother about the wording of this policy and the enforcability of such a policy though.

By Thomas

July 20, 2006 04:41 PM | Link to this

* RED ALERT!!!!* * ATTENTION ALL HANDS* * RED ALERT*

Listen very careful- SNY has issues with public schools and authority (PARTICULARLY WITH WHITES) All of the “issues” she continually rants about are not worth arguing about. She creates the problems she complains about. Her daughter is encouraged to cause problems due to her mother’s animosity and hatred of the institutions she has to work with.

As for the bathroom breaks, I am sympathetic to the concerns. I believe all students should be comfortable. I know some schools and classes may be unnecesarily draconion and strict, but most teachers are quite reasonable. Most of the rules teachers/schools develop regarding leaving the classroom are the result of a few people who don’t give a d about school and use leaving the classroom as an excuse to get out of the room/work and to play.* Yes, it is true— you have a few people who abuse “restroom privileges”. They make up any kind of excuse to leave the classroom.

I THINK IT IS VERY UNFAIR THAT GOOD, HONEST KIDS HAVE TO SUFFER BECAUSE THE ACTIONS OF A BUNCH OF PEOPLE WHO REALLY NEED AN ALTERNATE ENVIRONMENT TO “LEARN”.

I have heard of kids who get bladder infections from not using the restroom regularly.

MY ADVICE, AS AN EXPERIENCED EDUCATOR WHO HAS WORKED IN A VARIETY OF SCHOOL SETTINGS, IF YOU WANT YOUR CHILD TO GET THE BEST EDUCATION POSSIBLE AND NOT HAVE TO SUFFER BEING WITH WILD, DISRESPECTFUL, UNMOTIVATED HEATHENS IN LOCKDOWN, PUT YOUR KIDS IN A SCHOOL IN A REALLY GOOD NEIGHBORHOOD, PRIVATE SCHOOL, OR HOMESCHOOL.

You can never say that you weren’t told- 1) Ignore SNY’s hateful rants 2) If your child has any real potential, don’t send them to your neighborhood gulag- they won’t be able to learn because of madness caused by useless monkeys and they won’t get to pee.

Get the picture?

By Teacher

July 20, 2006 04:50 PM | Link to this

Hmmm…You just keep on teaching your kids to disobey teachers, and we will keep on loving them and teaching them. Unfortunately, you will be next one they disobey, and society will have to deal with them in the end. Teachers who stay love their careers, and we will continue to deal with the parents and the students because we have a talent, and we know what we are doing without consulting Eddie Long. Maybe if we put cameras in our classrooms, he’ll come help us teach.

By luvs2teach

July 20, 2006 04:51 PM | Link to this

OMG, SNY - I’m a little upset - you said that no teachers were willing to answer your questions and when we did you say we are all sticking up for each other and blaming the parent!

ACK!!!!!!!!

I tried to answer your question to the best of my ability, and the “parenting tip” came from the parent in me - not the teacher! I’ve been through it, you see - I have a daughter, now 20. I tried giving her a little empowerment, thinking it best, and I rued the day my sweet angel turned thirteen and began to question everything I did or said! Luckily, I, like you, have a wonderful husband who was also in the military, and took no s* from his sweet girl - thank goodness he was there to point her in the right direction.

Now, she’s fine (I love 20 - they start theinking you might know a thing or two after all) - thank goodness she focused her stubborness into being good and getting As - if she wanted to be bad, she would’ve been HORRID!

I was thinking about this on my way home from class - you were in the service like me - you know there are times you can not go to the bathroom - during an inspection for example. What do we do? We go ahead of time. We plan. That’s what people need to be doing with their kids - remember your parents telling you to “Go now, it’s a long car ride” - I’m sure you do. We need to teach them to listen to their bodies and plan ahead - that’s all I’m saying (and given the number of obese kids, we need to be talking about that with food, too).

To be honest - I didn’t read any parent-blaming in our posts - but, I know I’m not objective. And I wish that many of you non-teachers would start seeing the stories we share not as complaints, but rather insights as to the things that really go on in our schools.

Ask your kids what’s really going on - start a converstation with them - it will be enlightening - show them this blog and the topics - I share this stuff with my kids all the time (my 15 year old boy, BTW, thinks cell phones are stupid and that no one needs them in school - interesting, huh? He also thinks Jim D is hilarious, and that OldTeacher would be cool to have).

By SET

July 20, 2006 04:56 PM | Link to this

Thomas:

Do you really think we are all on this blog to correspond with people just like us? Knock off the catty remarks towards the personalities of the other bloggers. SNY is having her say and she sure isn’t namecalling you.

By the way I agree with your feelings about some people.

Your dialog about SNY implies that you know her personally - or maybe she’s a student’s mother. I don’t know anybody on this blog personally and I like reading their thoughts and experiences, especially when they see things differently and can explain themselves. Let’s not scare people off.

So she’s a church sister. Does she have to pass a committee to have a say here?

By luvs2teach

July 20, 2006 04:59 PM | Link to this

FYI - Ten common reasons for a child to request the bathroom - other than really needing it:

And we teachers, in addition to trying to teach a class are supposed to be the gatekeepers.

I WISH we could just let them go, or that we had bathrooms in our rooms like the elementary schools, but as my grandmother used to say, “If wishes were horse, beggars would ride.”

By Teacher

July 20, 2006 05:02 PM | Link to this

SNY - unfortunately you are being attacked, but I have to say that you are bringing it on yourself. You should truly take your own advice and stop commenting on subjects about which you know absolutely nothing. Let me give you a little “love offering”: stop already. You just don’t have a clue. How much time have you spent in your child’s classroom during instruction? How much time have you spent volunteering at your school? I’m so sad for you, even more sad for your child. But that’s okay, send her to us and we will love her and teach her.

This bathroom thing has got to end. My high school students get two passes a SEMESTER. If they run out, they have to find one from somewhere, or they just don’t go. Hasn’t been a problem in 12 years. It’s all in the clear, strict expectation. I tell them if they can hold their urine for a movie, they can hold it for my class. I figure with 8 minutes between classes, they can find 1 of those to go the bathroom. My instruction time is more valuable.

By SET

July 20, 2006 05:04 PM | Link to this

DB: How do we get discipline back into the schools?

Fire every single administrator in the bad schools. Replace them with retired military and retired police officers. Make discipline Mission One, ahead of learning and test scores, in the failing school campuses.

Enact some “because I said so” rules like silent transitioning to flush out the conduct disordered students and expell them to reform schools. Flunk out students who can’t meet minimum standards. Impose uniform dress and conduct codes and use them to expell the non-conformists, if they don’t drop out first.

Then let the teachers teach.

By jim d

July 20, 2006 05:06 PM | Link to this

L2T,

Tell him thanks,I think. I try hard not to take some of this stuff TOO seriously. But it is interesting to see how it sets some folks off.

By jim d

July 20, 2006 05:08 PM | Link to this

L2T,

juat wait till she hits 30. You become a genius.

(been there, done that—-Twice already)

By jim d

July 20, 2006 05:14 PM | Link to this

Set,

You left out teaching students to “march in lockstep”

By luvs2teach

July 20, 2006 05:18 PM | Link to this

Catlady - sorry to leave your excellent topic hanging! Taking the gifted class right now puts this first and formost in my mind.

I was one of those gifted who “dropped out” so to speak (not from school, but from performing well in the school setting). What happened to me was that my folks went through a divorce, and all of a sudden, the things that had gotten me so much positive attention (grades, awards, etc) weren’t working any more. I was bored and angry and so I started to “act a fool.”

I moved in with my take-no-nonsense Irish Catholic grandmother and found myself again by my jumior year.

There are so many factors - for some adolescents, the “gifted” label is one they want to play down and shed in the late middle/early high school years in an attempt to fit in - that could be a factor.

Another VERY interesting (to me) factor is that kids are considered gifted forever once identified. A precocious, well-parented and tutored child can test well in 1st grade and be placed in the gifted program, but actually not be gifted at all. When higher order thinking skills are required these kids can no longer perform at the gifted level.

Another factor maybe that they did not develop the necessary work habits (this was me, too). I got by in elementary with minimal effort. When I got to junior high (and was tracked) I actually had to work for the first time - I had never established any good work habits - it took the United States Marine Corps to help me with that (yikes - between my grandmother and the Corps is it any wonder I’m a stickler for rules?).

There is a lot of research on gifted underachievement - try a search on ERIC.

By SET

July 20, 2006 05:19 PM | Link to this

Hard to march in lockstep up stairs. Anyway, students will be taught that when/if they get to prison (when they are chained to each other and marched around).

Go watch sometime. That’s what we are trying to save these kids from.

By luvs2teach

July 20, 2006 05:21 PM | Link to this

jim d - LOL - I can’t wait!

By jim d

July 20, 2006 05:23 PM | Link to this

Set,

What a vision,

Students in jackboots marching in lockstep.

I wish I could remember where I’ve seen that before?

By catlady

July 20, 2006 05:25 PM | Link to this

Quite a few of our “conduct disordered” kids are protected by ADA and there isn’t much that will be done to expell them, no matter what they do. The others are not expelled (or even severely reprimanded) because it would look bad—see earlier blog about student behavior in this column a few days ago.

By Nja

July 20, 2006 05:39 PM | Link to this

The immaturity on this board is amazing. I can say that I rarely agree with SNY but to make comments about her Bishop is ridiculous. I think SNY is still upset about whatever happened in public school and when she writes her posts she writes with a lot of emotion.

Velatra-

Girl, I have been tired!!! I am so sick of everything turning to a it’s the black single parents, fatherless low IQ children fault. LOL. I just simply skip over those posts. It’s scary.

Back to the subject: I have a flyer that I give out to parents- on one side it says, “Twenty things teachers wish parents would do.” On the other it says, “Twenty things parents wish teachers would do.” I will see if I can find it online and provide a link, it’s really too much to type.

By SET

July 20, 2006 06:01 PM | Link to this

Jum d: Maybe juvenile hall? They are not allowed boots. That have white sneakers on.

Nja: Tell us more about what you are experiencing in the schools..

Catlady: When a good administrator wants to get rid of a problem student there are ways to make it happen.

By SET

July 20, 2006 06:09 PM | Link to this

Catlady: ADA won’t protect Conduct Disordered students from being arrested, booked in juvenile hall and sent to state prison for children. A good administrator can arrange for one criminal referral after another until the kid gets sent away or he voluntarily withdraws to avoid the next referral.

A good administrator also have other methods to get compliance from the students including having their driver’s license cancelled, kicking them off the sports teams, court referrals, psych referrals, etc. etc. If the school district means business, which only a few do, and they have competent and ruthless staff - you’d be surprised and what can be accomplished and who can be brought to heel.

You probably haven’t seen such a place. I went to High School in one.

By DB

July 20, 2006 06:14 PM | Link to this

Jim: I’m not talking about paddling anyone or politicians. If you can’t see our society is a bunch of complainers that take no ownership of their actions, you’ve got a serious problem. I’m simply talking about consequences. For instance, if a kid fails a test, how about saying, “Study more effectively next time, come in for help and see what you missed. Or just figure out what you’re doing wrong.” Instead, kids can blame teachers and press them into letting them do extra credit or correcting answers etc. etc. because mom and principal are down the teacher’s throat because there’s no way Johnny’s not doing his work. It’s got to be something else. Sorry, people, but if you’re failing anything in high school today, you’re just lazy. Most classes can be passed by simply reading the book. Another instance, when a kid continually fails classes because he or she doesn’t hand in homework, doesn’t come to school, doesn’t care, etc., let’s not say, “Oh, poor little boy. You’ve had it so tough. We’re going to hold our school to come up with several different interventions for you that cost money and do absolutely nothing to tell you to get off your A— and do some work.” Fail them, and let them get on with their life as a laborer or welfare recipient(that should be better controlled). If you don’t want to take science or math, you’d better find your way to the door or to a vocational program that can put you on your feet when you graduate(those are missing, too). When Johnny misbehaves and manipulates his parents and wishy washy administrators, have Johnny explain his actions, not the teacher. Johnny should do some time polishing the floors or something menial like I did when I when I was in school. These days, it’s the teacher that has to document everything and the teacher that really gets punished, not Johnny. That taught me a lot, and many others. Oh, and when a teacher goes to an administrator because he caught a kid ON BATHROOM duty smoking, and the administrator asks, “Did you see him lift the cigarette to his mouth and inhale?”, you’ve got a problem. Oh, and those kids that don’t shape up under these circumstances need to move on to real life or go to some type of behavioral modification school.

I’m telling you all. Everything a teacher does is second guessed by at least two people, and everyone overprotects our precious children.

As for the public, Jim, I do think our people are mostly ignorant idiots who elect moron politicians that just take advantage of their stupidity. So you are correct there.

By SNY

July 21, 2006 08:26 AM | Link to this

Here’s a question on topic,

We didn’t have any extra credit in my daughters elementary school and they definately don’t have it at all in our private school. I have heard teachers mention extra credit several times. Are you teachers having to assign extra credit because kids are not passing the regular work or because they are not turning work in? Are you required to assign extra credit work? What happens if the kids don’t pass the extra credit? Extra credit should be given to the kids that are REALLY, REALLY trying and just need that one or two extra assignments to bump them up to a “B” or a “C”.

No matter what ANY of you may think of me, none of my problems have been about the grading of the schools, public or private. My daughter makes wonderful grades and that is because I hold HER responsible for them. Not her teacher. If she doesn’t pass a test then we work harder the next time. Again she’s only 8 so it isn’t life or death if she doesn’t get an “A” on every test. I don’t have to worry about her not doing her homework because I check it every night before cheerleading or acting or anything. Nothing gets done before homework except for a snack. (I guess I have to feed her) :)

Anyway, is all of this extra credit needed and should parents ask about extra credit at the beginning of the year?

By Peaches

July 21, 2006 09:09 AM | Link to this

I have taught in Dekalb for 15 years. I have worked for many administrators. When a failing grade is earned by a child, the first question the administrator asks is “Did you offer any extra credit?” If the answer is “no,” then the administrator will mandate that the grade be changed to a 70. It stinks.

By LB

July 21, 2006 09:39 AM | Link to this

Peaches, I agree.

Is this what NCLB means? To pass a student who is failing is a way of not keeping him behind. He will graduate with an F and have that HS diploma and will get a decent job. Why? If a child is failing then he is failing. Many times these failing children are the trouble makers that everybody wants to eliminate from the classroom so teachers can teach. Instead of passing him on, send him to boot camp, alternative school or make him be home schooled. Other kids who just can’t grasp for what ever reason and some kids can’t, those are the ones who deserve the special ed. classes, ESOL and specifically detailed settings and extra credit. Schools really need to consider a recourse for teachers who are handicapped by these trouble maker kids, especially if the parents won’t get involved. Put the burden of these type behavorial issues back on the parents and let them home school these kids.

By SNY

July 21, 2006 09:45 AM | Link to this

So, what is the point in assigning extra credit? If the child is going to get a passing grade anyway, why not just give them a 70 and move on? Sorry, now that I’m finish being sarcastic, I can move on.

Peaches,

What happens if you have offered extra credit and they still fail? Do they still get an automatic 70?

By Counting the days...

July 21, 2006 09:50 AM | Link to this

In my middle school, we are not required to offer extra credit. My principal does “strongly encourage” us to not assign an average below a 60 to a student, as she believes that they will give up hope in striving to do better.

I’ve actually had to curve a child’s average 54 points this past year to meet the “60” requirement, as the child was absent (skipping) 32 days out of a 45 day grading period and slept the other 23 days. He did manage to put his name on a piece of paper one day, and it was a red letter day.

Was that child “given hope” to do better? Nope. That child WAS given the idea that he didn’t have to do a darn thing to get something. And I have a feeling that that lesson will carry over into the rest of his life as well.

Isn’t public school fun?

By luvs2teach

July 21, 2006 09:58 AM | Link to this

Teacher’s policies on extra credit vary, and as far as I know, there are no county or even school guidelines on how a teacher has to give extra credit.

I know some teacher who will only give extra credit to kids who have done all their work - the philosophy of “you only get dessert if you have eaten dinner.”

Others will give extra credit to kids who haven’t done their work during the quarter, and they need to do a little extra just to get a passing grade. Often this is done after progress reports and at a parent’s request. I used to do this, but I don’t anymore. Too many teachers at the high school won’t do this at all, and I feel like I am doing my 8th graders a disservice if I don’t start making them accountable NOW.

I do have a running list of things students can do for extra credit during the quarter. This is based on my philosophy that all learning does not take place in the classroom, and kids will retain better things they have a concrete connection to. My list includes things like visiting science museums, watching certain shows on TV, and reading science-related current event articles. There is a little form they fill out telling me what they did, how it relates to class, and what they learned. They are worth two points each and they can do a maximum of five. That ten points will put you in the next grade category, usually. It won’t help you if you have done nothing and have a 50. These are available throughout the quarter until the last two weeks (I’m too bust finishing up that quarter’s grade to deal with an onslaught of extra work). Some kids take advantage; some don’t, but the opportunity is there. I post it on my website, and I let my parents know about it open house and conference time.

I will also give random extra credit - bonus points on tests or for turning a project in early. I also give bonus points if an assignment is so good that I ask to keep it to share as an example.

SNY - you should ask at the beginning of the year, and look at it as an enrichment opportunity, and not as an opportunity to make up work not completed when it should’ve been (although that policy should be explained as well - I make it very clear that I don’t take late work - EVER - again I have 8th graders going to a high school with high standards). Most teachers are receptive to a child that wants to do a little extra for fun, but not for “filling in a hole dug themselves.”

By Counting the days...

July 21, 2006 10:02 AM | Link to this

I admit that I’ve always had difficulty wrapping my mind around the concept of “extra credit.”

Kids are always demanding it…yet I’ve discovered that the bulk of the kids who request the “extra” never attempted to get the “credit” in the first place.

Instead, I offer study sessions after school at least once a week for kids to get extra help in skills…which is a much better idea than offering “extra credit” in an area where they may be having difficulty in the first place.

Give a man a fish…or teach a man to fish?

By SNY

July 21, 2006 10:08 AM | Link to this

Counting,

You bash me over my beliefs about my child and who is the authority over her in school but then you turn around and post that you GAVE a student an extra 54 points to make a 60!! You have some nerve. Don’t spend your time worrying about my child, who has a set of loving, caring, involved parents, worry about yourself and what it says that you gave away 54 points just so that this child could pass - barely!!

By SET

July 21, 2006 10:15 AM | Link to this

Re: LB’s post..

In CA you can give illiterate students all the A’s you want. They will be “flunked” by the state graduation test and not given diplomas.

Even if they were given phony diplomas “so they can get a job” they employers won’t automatically hire them because the new computer based employment screens (and profiling) are keeping workers out of businesses and occupations.

For example - sensible employers in many industries won’t hire smokers (a good screen to keep underclass out), won’t hire bad credit applicants (keeps out druggies and dishonest applicants), won’t hire those who fail increasing sensitive physical tests for drug and nicotine use (hair tests harder to fool - keeps out the druggies), won’t hire those with DUI or Assaults, Thefts, or other criminal records (keeps out the criminal, the impulsive, and the stupid). Notice that these are all screens to keep people out and can’t be used to locate the brights and push them to the front of the line.

Although the US Supreme banned direct use of IQ on employment screens these are so many proxies for IQ tests that the ban is meaningless and now serves to discriminate against bright black candidates who cannot be quickly found unless the military or the NFL are doing the looking. They both strictly use IQ testing for placement.

The primary way to prepare the public school students (which are by definition lower class students in most urban areas) for careers is to train and discipline them around these screens. Oh, but that assumes the schools have a Mission Statement to prepare the students to be able to find a job upon leaving school. I guess that was 1950 again.

Does “what parents want” include training the boy or girl to be able to qualify for the military or a job and be reasonably self supporting upon leaving school? As opposed to making the kid happy and full of unearned “self esteem”?

By luvs2teach

July 21, 2006 10:28 AM | Link to this

SNY - if you read counting’s post she said she is “strongly encouraged” to give children with lower averages a 60 - read that as “told to” - I think it’s unfair of you to criticize her personally for something that is an unwritten school policy - believe me, that is not the only school, and that is not the only case.

It’s because of grade inflation and policies like that, that NCLB was created.

Fair grading practices are an issue among educators. For example, where should an A end and a B begin? Cobb county had an A at 92 until HOPE - now it’s 90 so Cobb’s kids can compete with other counties for that scholarship as well as others.

Where should failing be? In college failing was anything below a 60 - in my high school, 65. Yet most metro counties it’s 70.

Think about a target where 70 percent of the target will cause you to FAIL. Is taht fair?

There is some pressure to turn all 0s into 50s, because of the deep hole one 0 puts you in. I teach my kids the math of zeros:

• a zero and a 100 averages to a 50 - failing

• a zero and 2 100s average to a 66 - still failing in the metro region

• a zero and 3 100s average to a 75 - a B

It takes 3 100s (and be honest, they don’t all get 100s) to bring a 0 to a passing grade.

Don’t dig that hole!

By Counting the days...

July 21, 2006 10:29 AM | Link to this

SNY….sometimes, teachers do not have a choice on curving grades, or did you miss that part in my post? We are also not autonomous in how we are expected to discipline students,or select curriculum or materials.

Get your facts straight before you blast people, ok?

Teachers are on the bottom rung of the education totem pole these days. We are told what to teach, when to teach it, how to teach it, and, oh yes, when we can go to the bathroom. (And we are too busy between classes monitoring both the hallway and our classroom to take the hike over onto the next hallway to go to the restroom ourselves…so we frequently have to “hold it” ourselves.)

We really aren’t the autonomous creatures that you apparently believe we are.

By luvs2teach

July 21, 2006 10:37 AM | Link to this

Counting - your comment reminded me of another excellent question parents should ask:

Is my child’s school using a scripted program (like America’s Choice), and if so, why? And if so, how are the results?

By luvs2teach

July 21, 2006 10:42 AM | Link to this

Counting - your last comment about “autonomous creatures” got me - I have a personal theory on this:

Most people who aren’t in education (and especially those who don’t have kids in school yet) relate their experiences as students to their perceptions of teachers.

Remember - it seemed like teachers got to do anything they wanted, and not only did they make us work, but they enforced all those rules we didn’t like.

Even though I thought I knew what I was getting into (I had subbed in college as well as volunteered in my children’s classrooms), I was still surprised at what it’s REALLY like.

By SNY

July 21, 2006 10:44 AM | Link to this

Counting, this came directly from your post:

“I’ve actually had to curve a child’s average 54 points this past year to meet the “60” requirement, as the child was absent (skipping) 32 days out of a 45 day grading period and slept the other 23 days.”

Just because your principal “stronly encourages” something doesn’t mean that you HAVE to do it.

If my facts are wrong, they came from your post.

Luvs,

I understand how many 100s it takes to get out of the whole of a “0” but the student didn’t do the work. They should get a “0”, shouldn’t they? I just don’t think that it is right. Take the fairness issue for the other students out of the eqation for a minute (because life isn’t always fair), let’s break down the word extra. Extra - that assumes that you did the original work first. This work is in addition to the work already done. If you haven’t done the work in the first place, how and why should you get extra.

I’m sorry, I just can’t type it exactly the way I’m thinking it in my head. I have a quick project to do for work and I’m doing two things at once. But, does anyone see where I am going with this?

By catlady

July 21, 2006 10:53 AM | Link to this

Re: the behavior-disordered thread. You are right. It is possible to get a very disruptive student put out of school. In my system, it just doesn’t happen. It is considered to be a reflection on the system. So, instead, we go along “encouraging” students to go to the alternative school, and putting up with it if they don’t. I know some systems are better, and it isn’t necessarily because of higher SES. They just don’t put up with stuff from the beginning, and then after dismissing a few disruptives the others fall in line and see that someone is serious about this appropriate behavior thing. I have taught mostly in one system, and the administration will do ANYTHING, including sacrificing the education of the other student, to keep from handling behavior problems in an assertive manner. As I told on a blog before, we had parents of an elementary student who had been assaulted who called the police (good for them). When the police arrived, they were told by an administrator that it was an accident, and they were not needed. Never mind that the boy had been assaulting, threatening, and disrupting class for 5 years! Someone should have hung for that lie! Teachers in our system just pray no one will be seriously hurt, and please God let me survive this so I can retire. I have not, at the elementary level, experienced the pressure to inflate grades. We are, however, to “modify” the curriculum for struggling kids so that they will be “successful” (read, have good grades). The fact that the modifications dilute the work to less than grade level seems lost on everyone except the teachers. We put a * beside modified work but no one looks at that! Of course, they cannot really do the work and then we are amazed that they fail the CRCT! And we offer extra classes after school, etc. As for my own children, I never encouraged them to ask for extra credit work. If they wanted to boost their A averages higher, and the teacher wanted to let them, so be it. I expected them to do it right the first time, and if not the consequences were theirs. I think our teacher unions could do us a great service by addressing stuff like grade inflation pressure and true discipline. I would rather have that than a raise!

By catlady

July 21, 2006 10:57 AM | Link to this

I sure would love to get into a debate about scripted “teaching”! I’d also like to see data that has not been cooked!

By jim d

July 21, 2006 11:00 AM | Link to this

Funny thing that extra credit.

I support allowing a child that has bombed a test due to failing to grasp a single concept to do a little something extra only after they have attended one or two of the tutoring sessions you teachers so graciously provide before and after school.

To me this indicates the student is making an effort and is holding themselves accountable.

Other than that I’d say NOPE!

By luvs2teach

July 21, 2006 11:03 AM | Link to this

SNY - The “math of zeros” wasn’t addressed specifically to you - I was just sharing something I teach my kids (personal and professional) to help them understand their grades better. I used to have so many kids come up to me, “Why am I still failing if I just got a 100?”

What I was trying to explain, is that, in some educratic circles, the belief is no, he should not get the zero.

It’s not a fairness issue, actually, it’s a statistical and philisophical issue. It is statistically easier to get a failing grade than a passing grade. Should grades reflect effort or achievement? Does that really reflect achievement? What is the goal? At what point is mastery? . If a C is average, how can every student in a class get an A or a B? Should grades be curved?

Grading, grade inflation, zeros - these are all major issues in education right now - in part because NCLB is forcing some schools to expose that their A is not the equivalent of an A from another school. Or a child can have an A but not pass the CRCT.

Anyone out there curious about this should either google it, or look on some of the education links Patti has provided here for us. PArents - ask you child’s teachers about their grading policies - so many of my students and parents don’t understand where the grades come from, and why one good grade won’t turn everything around.

By SNY

July 21, 2006 11:05 AM | Link to this

catlady,

If this is the case, then how are parents to know if their child is really doing as well as they perceive? How are we to know if our child is doing the age related work or the watered down work? How do teachers separate the class and teach the students on level and then the watered down students? No one wants to get the grade of “A” or “B” on their child’s report card only to find out later that the child cannot handle grade-level work the next year.

By jim d

July 21, 2006 11:06 AM | Link to this

Here’s the one that really chaps me.

Teachers allowing students to go back over a test and attempt to answer questions marked wrong by the teacher and given 1/2 credit for those corrected answers. This appears to be common practice in Gwinnett County high schools and in my opinon does nothing to raise ones self esteem. To the contrary it seems to send a message to the kids that really studied and pulled the grades that it really doesn’t pay to do what you’ve been tasked with.

How many of you teachers have used this concept to keep from failing a student?

By Counting the days...

July 21, 2006 11:08 AM | Link to this

SNY…we see exactly where you are going with this. You have such a chip on your shoulder about public schools and teachers that you are having difficulty seeing beyond that.

If you do not finish the project that you are working on, what will your BOSS do? It isn’t a big secret that teachers are also employees who have many, many bosses to appease. We try our best to ensure that children learn in an environment that is safe and nurturing. We are given directives of things we need to accomplish in any given day, just like every other employee out there in the world.

Want the truth? It pissed me off to no end that I had to curve that child’s grade to a 60 because my BOSS wanted me too. (70 is a passing grade in my county, by the way.) It sent that particular child all the wrong messages and sent other students similar messages.

Could I have just ignored my BOSS’S direction and gave the kid the grade he richly deserved? Sure. I would have also brought wrath and disapproval down on my head. I would have found myself examined like a bug under a microscope and my BOSS would have began the ever so painful process of deciding that I wasn’t such a good fit at my school and suggest that I seek employment elsewhere.

L2T was exactly right: practices such as this (and heck…giving extra credit in general) were part of the reasons why NCLB was created. I became a teacher 19 years ago because I wanted to assist children to become healthy, happy, contributing members of society. WUnfortunately, society has become so darned focused on little Johnny’s self esteem that it’s tied my hands on a great many things that schools used to do once upon a time.

By catlady

July 21, 2006 11:13 AM | Link to this

luvs2 makes great points.

Then we have the whole anomaly of getting 200 points (out of 800) for putting your name on the answer sheet on the SAT!

By SNY

July 21, 2006 11:15 AM | Link to this

luvs,

I didn’t think that you were directly it totally at me, I just didn’t want to add my comments and everyone not be able to follow my thought process when I responded.

By luvs2teach

July 21, 2006 11:21 AM | Link to this

SNY - your questions are excellent - welcome to:

The Wonderful World of Grade Inflation!

Where, like beautiful Lake Wobegon, EVERY child is above average!

Parents, come experience the joy of being able to BRAG to your neighbors about your child’s straight A report card! Enjoy the proud glowing face of your star student!

Children, come to a place where you can feel good about your effort - even you don’t learn a thing! You don’t even have to do homework - just show up!

Teachers - be happy you don’t ever ever have to fail a child and deal with those pesky complaining parents! Children will love you! Parents will love you!

Everybody loves this place!

What a wonderful happy joyful place!

Yeah!

By catlady

July 21, 2006 11:22 AM | Link to this

SNY the sad case is (in my district), parents don’t care that their child’s education is “watered down”, as long as they get those As and Bs. Teachers HATE this, but are truly forced to do so by the administrators. (You see, if a student is not successful on grade level work, it is always our fault. We didn’t make it easy, entertaining, exciting, didn’t motivate, etc etc ad nauseum. Or the previous year’s teacher did not). And then we have scripted teaching (I know you can hear my feelings on this loud and clear) foistered off on us because we are such incompetent, inadequate, unskilled idiots. Thank God I love the children, huh?

Patti, maybe an idea for the future is to let teachers tell you what they had rather have than money (since we are so overpaid, get paid vacation for 3 months a year, can do anything we want, are powerful, vindictive overlords, etc).

By SNY

July 21, 2006 11:24 AM | Link to this

Counting,

I wasn’t asking that question with a chip on my shoulder. I really thought that it was a legitimate question. I still do. Please, please do not assume that everything I post is negative. I know that I make it hard, sometimes. But sometimes, I am asking because I really do not know the answer.

I thought in your ealier post when you said that it was encouraged that you had a choice. I didn’t read in between the lines that you had no choice.

By DB

July 21, 2006 11:31 AM | Link to this

LB: Finally, there’s someone that gets it!!!!! Thanks!!!!! Ahead with boot camp, alt school, or homeschool!!! Get those that don’t care away from those that do care, and we’ll have a much better school system!!!! And eventually, the numbers of those that don’t care will dwindle because they will realize they’re left behind in society!!!

By DB

July 21, 2006 11:32 AM | Link to this

And all those alternative schools should separate them from their terrible parents in that they should be “boarding” schools that teach them to depend on themselves and MATURE!

By luvs2teach

July 21, 2006 11:33 AM | Link to this

Hey all - thanks for the kind words about my posts..I am actually practicing some off task behavior! I am supposed to be researching giftedness in minority and and disadvantaged students. It’s actually quite interesting.

Catlady - I turned down an interview at a school once I found out it used scripted lessons, and if my child’s school every switched to that, I’d be looking to go somewhere else. I don’t debate the basic effectiveness for certain segments of our population, but overall - YUCK.

Jim d - when I first started teaching I would let kids correct tests for partial credit - I don’t do that anymore, and I let them know that upfront. I find that they put in more effort upfront when they know they won’t get a second chance.

That reminds me of something I am struggling with now - dropping lowest quiz or test grade - how do people feel about that?

SNY - gotcha ;-)

By jim d

July 21, 2006 11:40 AM | Link to this

If Teachers are inflating grades to keep a school from failing to make AYP Which is a part of NCLB which is law. Does that make teachers criminals for violating the law? And if this is going on with the knowledge of school administrators, are they then accomplices to this flagarant disregard of the law?

Look we all know teachers don’t have any back bone and if this is happening it is coming down from the top so why not just can a few supers. and make an example?

We could start in Gwinnett!

By jim d

July 21, 2006 11:42 AM | Link to this

L2,

Yeah, thats another on that torks me.

By jim d

July 21, 2006 11:43 AM | Link to this

ONE

By luvs2teach

July 21, 2006 11:48 AM | Link to this

jim d - grades aren’t part of NCLB - just test scores and attendance.

By DB

July 21, 2006 11:51 AM | Link to this

SNY: When a principal pressures you to change a grade and you don’t do it, there are two things that can happen. 1. He or she will make your life miserable until you resign. 2. He or she will then fire you for insubordination. Look up Doc Neace. It’s all too common.

Jim: I agree with both of your views of extra credit. You never see kids come in after school, and you hardly see those that try hard in the first place failing tests. Therefore, I hardly ever give extra credit. I’ve never given a half point for corrections as they learn almost nothing other than they can fail and come in and easily upgrade(not like life). In extreme cases where I think a kid tried but just had a bad day(and met all the other requirements of coming in and whatnot), I give the kid the opportunity to come in one time after school(within a week) to retake another test over the same material. All my kids are allowed to come in and see what they received wrong on the tests and ask why it was wrong, etc. However, I give this opportunity to re-take one test only once per semester, and they have to choose which one. And the grade with the re-take is averaged with the grade on the first test. Otherwise, I do not give extra credit. I think this is reasonable and similar to some life experiences. And I think it teaches them a lot,(decision making, responsibility, etc.). It’s similar to the “dropping the lowest score”, but they have to do a lot more, and they don’t benefit totally because the score is not dropped. The kids really think it’s a big deal, but it really teaches them more than it truly affects their grade. However, if I taught in public school, I think most of the kids would just take the first failing grade and move on as there are many more that just don’t care.

By DB

July 21, 2006 11:52 AM | Link to this

Jim: And I forgot to mention that the re-take is usually much more difficult than the original test.

By SNY

July 21, 2006 11:55 AM | Link to this

luvs,

Sometimes I think that you are the only one who understands me. Thank you for that.

About dropping the lowest quiz and/or test score, I wouldn’t have a problem with that. I have my BS in Accounting and all through college, my professors did that. Starting that process now couldn’t hurt them. Sometimes you just have a bad day and mess up. That is totally understandable. I tell my child that she is not going to do well all of the time and if she doesn’t get an “A” or “B” on everything that it is okay.

Good idea, it shows that you care enough to be understanding.

By Danielle

July 21, 2006 11:55 AM | Link to this

I have a situation. I have been applying for a teacher position. After the interview, I always ask, “Will you let me know if I did NOT get the job?” The answer is always yes. But I never get notification. I will call the school and leave messages but never get a return call. How are we supposed to know how long to wait for an answer. I have called the school and been told that the principal is still interviewing and doesn’t have an answer yet. I have been told my name will be recommended to the board, but not meeting until July (this was the beginning of June). I called and found out the principal hired someone else so my name had never been recommended, but I had not been notified! How can this happen?

By DB

July 21, 2006 11:58 AM | Link to this

Jim: It’s my opinion that real teachers would put their jobs on the line and take a stand against being pressured to “break the law” and change the scores of grades. I once saw a principal CHANGE ANSWERS in NY on the Regents tests when her school was under review. Let’s just say she was relocated to the curriculum department. I recently heard that after 5 years, she was finally fired. She tried pressuring a bunch of us into making the tests look better than they were. What a disservice to students!!! That’s what happens when society puts all the blame on schools instead of on the kids.

By DB

July 21, 2006 12:04 PM | Link to this

When schools get failing scores, it’s usually nothing more than demographics in that the school is overrun with kids that just don’t care. In almost every case, schools are held more accountable and have to come up with all these costly “interventions” that don’t do squat. Or the administration just gets better at fudging the numbers. These moron bureaucrats need to look it the specific problems instead of holding a school accountable for having to drag the horses to water. The problem is that no one is thirsty, and that’s the problem of the parents and students, not the schools. Everything is backward from test scores to consequences, and that’s the problem.

By SNY

July 21, 2006 12:06 PM | Link to this

DB,

Do you teach in private school?

By DB

July 21, 2006 12:07 PM | Link to this

Danielle: Many schools never tell you because they have such turnover that they will keep you on the list until they know they have a teacher. If they call a teacher to offer a job, and they take weeks to respond, they don’t want to tell you to move on. And if the teacher quits in the first week, they may call you. Or, maybe you have the job, and they just haven’t told you yet. Here’s a tip. If they won’t tell you, I wouldn’t work for that school.

By DB

July 21, 2006 12:13 PM | Link to this

Danielle: Also, if you have several teaching interviews and never get an offer, there is a problem. You may want to ask them what you did to make them not hire you, and ask for honesty. Sooner or later you’ll find one that tells you as there are some honest administrators out there. With teacher turnover rates today, most schools will settle for a good pulse. There is serious competition for teachers that have a clean record and nothing to hold against them.

By DB

July 21, 2006 12:14 PM | Link to this

SNY: Yes, I do.

By DB

July 21, 2006 12:20 PM | Link to this

SNY: I used to teach public school in Elmira, NY. It was a terrible school with absolutely no discipline or expectations. I finally decided to quit when my student, Jeremy Getman, made me wake up and realize what’s really going on these days. Google it. I now teach in an excellent private school where everything is the way it should be, and more.

By jim d

July 21, 2006 12:26 PM | Link to this

Let me see if I fully grasp this issue.

NCLB is supposed to be a tool to measure student’s nation-wide and fairly assess them in comparison with students across the nation. But each state sets their own standards and testing methods, which are all different.

So, each state has set it’s standards which are all different, and the individual schools systems set their own curriculum, which will differ from district to district but the State tests students on what they want students to know, not necessarily what they have been taught. In Georgia this is the CRCT.

Now if a child pulls good grades all year long but still fails the state test, they may be granted a review and a waiver and still be promoted to the next grade. (the review process may be comming, I know I’ve read somewhere they were to fashion it after what GCPS does with their gateway)

Therefore individual schools find ways of cheating (would that be the correct word?) inflating grades so that students may not be held back, thus assuring no child is left behind. Giving us an accurate comparison nation-wide

However, Should a child be caught cheating they would not be left behind but would actually be held behind guaranteeing NCLB’s success.

Does that about sum it up?

Is it just me or does this seem a wee bit strange?

By jim d

July 21, 2006 12:29 PM | Link to this

“That’s what happens when society puts all the blame on schools instead of on the kids.”

No DB

Thats what happens when you place unrealistic expectations and hinge them on a High Stakes Test

By DB

July 21, 2006 12:36 PM | Link to this

Jim: I tend to disagree a little bit. The tests are a joke, and I just think the population needs to rise to the occasion. We visited this long ago, but I think well-made test that is created by local school control would be fine. But I agree they shouldn’t be high stakes. They should be just like a “Final” in any course. You count it only so much, and you can then use the data even more effectively.

By jim d

July 21, 2006 12:42 PM | Link to this

No argument there DB.

The only method of measurement in learning is testing, but one must test what has been taught.

By LB

July 21, 2006 12:59 PM | Link to this

Catlady,

I would like to add my two cents on scripted teaching.

Why have certified teachers and continuous updates to teaching knowledge when all they have to do is read a script. This can backfire in two ways.

By DB

July 21, 2006 01:19 PM | Link to this

Jim: No, students in each state take standardized tests(final exams) for each subject(or core area). These final exams count for a significant percentage of the overall grade in the class, but you can compare kids throughout the state and from school to school because of them. However, judging schools should be done by parents since they should have the right to put their kids in whatever schools they choose. This way, the parents will not make that decision based solely on test scores, which is the whole problem of the government right now. The government should not be spearheading and regulating schools based solely on these scores(and holding only schools accountable) as we all see where that leads. This is more like capitalism. The bad schools will be phased out by parents choosing, not government. And then you might say there will be urban schools that stink no matter what and every school will be defined by poverty and those kids won’t have a chance to attend better schools. Exactly! Then you can commit to improving only those schools instead of all schools. The problem will be more maneagable. You can limit school sizes and all that stuff on only a relative few schools that need the help. This one-size-fits all schools is a big waste of money. And schools should be able to kick a kid out when attendance and other requirements are not met by the kid. This would take a lot of changes in laws, but the “enablers” would never let this happen. Eventually, school would be sought after and not “forced” down the throats of those that don’t care. And expecations could be risen, and we may once again have a society that makes informed decisions and so on and so forth.

Of course, this is probably a pipe dream.

By DB

July 21, 2006 01:23 PM | Link to this

Jim: I just think the last post is the best option with what we have, i.e., the government requiring us to educate our kids with tax money. The whole problem is that the jobs of the government officials depend on the schools they run, and they pass the accountability down to schools, and so on. It’s all about CYA, and the accountability gets shifted away from the students more and more each day. I would rather it just be that each local school runs the whole show just like private schools and colleges, and you have an entity like SACS overlooking it all but being “hands off” about most things.

By DB

July 21, 2006 01:26 PM | Link to this

Jim: I also think each kid should have an amount of money(that it would cost to be put through public school) that can be put toward going to private school each year. Call it vouchers or whatever, but I think the fact that I pay taxes and then have to send my kids to private school is bull. I think that would somewhat solve the “trailer classroom” issues we have.

By DB

July 21, 2006 01:31 PM | Link to this

Jim: Oh, I forgot to mention that NCLB should be renamed “No School Left Honest” and should be totally thrown out. I think testing should be done, but NCLB has it all wrong. Or maybe they should make a program called, TCTDTSBWAS, “Those Children That Decide To Stay Behind, Will And Should.”

By jim d

July 21, 2006 01:32 PM | Link to this

We’re in the same book,—- actually, on the same page

By DB

July 21, 2006 01:35 PM | Link to this

My post that starts with “No” earlier is not in disagreement. I was just saying that from a much earlier post, you were misunderstanding what I was saying. Oh, and I think things should be left to teachers and schools. For instance, if a high school has 4 Physics teachers, the Physics students should all take the same Physics Final. And that way the chairperson can see what teachers may be “expecting less” out of their students and therefore address the situation.

By DB

July 21, 2006 01:38 PM | Link to this

Jim: I just think we were both misunderstood. A long time ago, I thought you were against all testing, and I think you thought I was all for High Stakes Testing when neither was the case.

By jim d

July 21, 2006 01:55 PM | Link to this

I will take it one step further though. Let’s not call it vouchers, people get all knotted up over that terminalogy. let’s call it an E/A (education allowance)

If you truly wish parents and students to be accountable thats how you do it. Give them the money and let them send their kids where ever they wish for an education. Then no one could blame the system and teachers are off the hook.

By Gwinnett Teacher

July 21, 2006 01:57 PM | Link to this

I know I’m late, but, I need to comment on the extra credit issue. When I assign an extra-credit project, trust me, it’s deserving of EXTRA credit! I tell the students and the parents that they won’t concern themselves with extra credit if they do everything they’re required to do! I drop the lowest test grade, because everyone is “allowed” to have a bad day. I also round up every test grade. I often check homework for completion, not accuracy - which helps them out immensely.

The logic is - if they couldn’t pass one test the whole semester, how do they expect to do something extra?! My rare instances of offering extra credit are not designed to help someone pass!

I record the grade they earn.

By jim d

July 21, 2006 02:02 PM | Link to this

Be careful Gwinnett teach, so did Doc Neace.

By Gwinnett Teacher

July 21, 2006 02:09 PM | Link to this

jim d- Touche!!

By SNY

July 21, 2006 02:19 PM | Link to this

DB,

I am so with you and Jim D. on the E/A. Everyone knows that I am in Gwinnett county so I won’t even try to hide it. Gwinnett county is paid around $13,000 per student per year for education!!! Can you believe that amount. I can send my child to private school for 2 years on that money alone. But, I am stuck, and I mean stuck, paying for school taxes to support a school that my child doesn’t attend anymore. And when she did attend it, I hated it.

You are correct in thinking that parents will pay more attention if they are able to choose the school and they have to pay for it.

By abc

July 21, 2006 02:25 PM | Link to this

SNY - You can choose which school your children will attend - move to a better cluster/district/city/state/country!

You chose to put your daughter in a school that had already failed AYP! How much research did you put into that? If you spent as much time on that as you do blogging all day (does your boss know what you do all day?) - you might not have had the “bad” experience. You brought it all on yourself.

By the way - thanks for the donation!

By DB

July 21, 2006 02:45 PM | Link to this

Yep, I hate the word “voucher” as it is. EA sounds much better as we all deserve it. And I’ll take it another step further. We should have College Prep Schools, Normal Mainstream Schools(with Vocational added in), and Behavioral Modification School(if we are forced to to something with the delinquents). Most kids will be in Normal Schools(more local), some will EARN the right to attend College Prep Schools(more centrally located), and the Behavioral Schools(boarding) should be in the Okeefenokee Swamp or equivalent far removed from distraction. And “normal” school doesn’t mean you’re not going to college. College Prep School diploma means you are the cream of the crop based solely on your accomplishments.

By jim d

July 21, 2006 02:46 PM | Link to this

SNY,

You really can’t use that figure. The cost of providing for children with needs tremendously outweighs the average per pupil number. I believe I read somwhere?? that the cost of a normal student in gwinnett was somewhere around 5-6m per year. But then thats about the same money as what it would cost in a private school. Well unless they are traveling to indian trail rd. I’ve heard Greater Atlanta Christian tuition is a bit higher than the 12M you mentioned.

By Gwinnett Teacher

July 21, 2006 02:53 PM | Link to this

jim d - Here are the tuition rates for GACS.

K4 - K6 $9,645 books - $255 Grades 1 - 5 $10,530 $370 Grades 6 - 12 $11,080 $495

By DB

July 21, 2006 02:56 PM | Link to this

abc: The only problem is that almost every school these days, regardless of AYP, is not good. And most schools are just too big, and kids walk around with teachers and administrators not even knowing their names. There is little or no real discipline. The kid to teacher ratio is about 40 to 1 if you’re lucky. Even the best performing schools have low expectations and kids that decide to go to college are usually in for a rude awakening. And most schools spend almost all their resources into dragging the unwilling. And now colleges are spending a lot of money on testing and remediation programs trying to catch them up. All of America is being dumbed down. And AYP doesn’t give you the whole story, especially when half the numbers are just dishonest. If I’m going to pick a school, I ask the administration about discipline, expectations, and whatnot to see if their philosophy is along with mine. Then I visit the school on a weekday and see how things are(whether the administration is telling the truth). You can tell when a school is out of control. If a school is well-run, your kid can be in control of his or her own destiny.

By jim d

July 21, 2006 02:57 PM | Link to this

GT,

Thanks.

By DB

July 21, 2006 03:03 PM | Link to this

I got it!

NCLB = No Child Left Blame

By SNY

July 21, 2006 03:06 PM | Link to this

abc,

The elementary public school in my area that my child attended DID do great and have. The did pass the AYP!! What are you talking about? I should not have to move everytime it is time for my child to change schools. The middle and high schools in my area didn’t meet AYP. The other 3 elementary schools in my area did not meet AYP, but somehow our school did. And they have for the past 3 years now.

See, my post wasn’t even meant to be negative, you took it and twisted it to be negative. I was just commenting on DB and Jim D. posts. It is attitudes such as yours that make me want to slap teachers who think they know it all. BTW, you are welcome for the donation. If you don’t want it, I can always give you my bank information and you can give it back!!

To everyone else, I still do not see the problem with an education allowance. It was a good idea the first time I read about it and it still is right now.

By abc

July 21, 2006 03:16 PM | Link to this

SNY - I guess I’m just sick of “hearing” your same old song! Change the station!

jim d and DB - would you agree that a voucher/EA would make the private schools more competetive to get into? Wouldn’t that make it harder for some of the students who are in there to remain there? I know that I have public school students who could run laps around some private school students. Granted - I teach honors and gifted students, but, my point is - wouldn’t the voucher system be bad in a way?

By abc

July 21, 2006 03:22 PM | Link to this

SNY - I apologize if I gave bad information, but, I was basing my comments on this post from you:

*By SNY

July 12, 2006 10:35 AM | Link to this

The school that my daughter attend failed miserably. Although I am not surprise. Even the schools around hers failed with the exception of 1. Says enough for me. We’re gone!!!*

Which part of that post did I misunderstand? Do I need to change my contact lenses?

By catlady

July 21, 2006 03:22 PM | Link to this

LB—thanks for your comments on scripted teaching. Any idiot can do it, and it is a waste to hire gifted, talented teachers and then stick them with something that deadens the children’s brains as well as teacher morale. If your staff needs scripted programs, you probably need a new staff! Scripted does help a small portion of our students, but it is not, and will never be the answerfor 80% or more of the students. Our system has been using the scripted stuff for the last 3 years in reading and, guess what? test scores are not rising like helium balloons. And our children’s scores in other areas are going down! Our kids can answer idiot questions, but cannot do real-world reading. And don’t get me started about Reading First! Not only is it NOT Jesus-walking-on-water, but now the kids and teachers hate reading time! Great teachers are leaving in droves. We have students who can call words with the best of them, the result of emphasis on “reading fluency”-calling words as fast as you can but don’t worry about what it means! That is NOTreading! Luckily the CRCT scores help point that out. But of course, we continue because the government tells us it works! Ask for research on sub-populations—I am told there isn’t any. How do we call it research-based? I think I could slap the words “research-based” on dog doo and Reading First would pick it up and we’d all be buying it. Come to think of it….. :-))

Sorry. I am off the soapbox now.

By SNY

July 21, 2006 03:33 PM | Link to this

abc,

I really don’t care what you are “sick” of. If that’s the case, I’m sick of you coming down on me for my opinion. You are allowed yours, why am I not allowed mine?

Anyway, I have another question.

Once school starts and the teachers are able to section out the troublemakers (I’m sure you see them coming a mile away), why can’t the school administrators, not the teachers, come up with a list and send these students to other areas of the school. Sort of like a hall for disruptive students. The teachers can give a list to the APs and they can get with parapros and other staff members after the 1st nine weeks and go from there. Remove the troublemakers, the students that don’t want to learn for whatever reason. That leaves the teachers to teach the students that care.

I don’t know, maybe this has been visited already and didn’t work. I just figure instead of screaming about what isn’t working, I can try and think of something that might work. This would also make the class sizes smaller again, wouldn’t it?

By Manny

July 21, 2006 03:42 PM | Link to this

SNY - that is so illegal, I don’t even know where to begin!

Unless you have some documentation that a student needs to be “segregated” from the general population - you’re in violation of all kinds of laws. Even sped students are supposed to be in the “least restrictive environment”.

This method also opens the floodgates to cases of racial, ethnic, size, and all other kinds of discrimation. (By the way - I read that they did a survey on teachers, and the subgroup that teachers discriminate against most is overweight children!)

Suppose (God forbid!) you daughter’s teacher had proclaimed her to be one of these troublemakers? You would have screamed so loudly - only dogs would’ve been able to hear you!

By catlady

July 21, 2006 03:43 PM | Link to this

SNY—hahahahahahahaha thank you for that chuckle. Here’s the problem: NO ONE (parent or administrator) will ADMIT we have those types of children and if we do, NO PARENT will allow THEIR child to be so “labeled”. Besides, ADA says the sp ed children have to have Free and Appropriate Education (FAPE) which means that if they are in sp ed for BD or any other reason, they get to be in class with non-bd kids (least restrictive environment). And many of the disruptive students that are not sp ed have parents that will simply not ALLOW the school to treat them that way! They are the parents and know what is best for their child! Looks like your idea ought to work…

By abc

July 21, 2006 03:48 PM | Link to this

SNY - I know you don’t care about me! You seem to only care about those in your bubble. Yes, everyone is entitled to an opinion, but, trust me - everyone knows your opinion by now!

So which time did you lie, on July 12 when you said your daughter’s school failed, or today when you said it didn’t?

By DB

July 21, 2006 03:58 PM | Link to this

abc: Of course it would make it harder to stay in private school. And that’s perfect if you ask me. It’s competition, just like real life. And that way, private school isn’t just reserved for the rich. It is reserved for the motivated. And, more importantly, the expectations and performance in public schools will rise because everyone will be in the right spot, and then we won’t have this big difference between a private school and public school. To be honest with you, I work at a private school because it’s the best situation, but I believe in my heart that our public schools could be just the same if we dedicate ourselves to it and dare to set expectations. That’s what America should be. It should once again be a place where you can make the best of yourself regardless of your socioeconomic status. Right now, the low class is swelling and the middle class is disappearing. Before long, we’ll be just another developing country if we don’t do something about it.

By abc

July 21, 2006 04:03 PM | Link to this

DB - I like the way you think!

Thank goodness I live in an excellent district and cluster, otherwise - my children would be in private schools too.

By DB

July 21, 2006 04:04 PM | Link to this

Manny: Those are the exact “enabling” laws that need to be changed. School is getting like welfare. If a kid doesn’t do well, mom and dad use those laws to get their kid classified, on Ritalin, etc. etc. etc. It’s all about making excuses, and our laws enable them. What gets me is the number of kids on medication these days and the number of SPED kids rising. The true numbers should be much lower, say 5% or less of the population. But, no, we have 1 out of 3 on medication(or more in some places), 1 out of 3 having testing accommodations or “special” interventions, and no one owning up to the truth. It’s terrible. It does nothing but hurts those kids that really need the extra help.

By DB

July 21, 2006 04:06 PM | Link to this

SNY and abc: This is not the Springer show.

By Just Wondering

July 21, 2006 04:17 PM | Link to this

DB - you’re right! It’s not the Springer Show, it’s the SNY Show!

By DB

July 21, 2006 04:17 PM | Link to this

SNY and abc: You two are cracking me up! I must say abc has a point.

By SET

July 21, 2006 04:17 PM | Link to this

This is a tough audience today…

A good school administrator/teacher etc. can get rid of the troublesome students by setting and enforcing rules the Bozos don’t want to live with. Then they will transfer themselves to an alternative program. At least that’s what I saw when I was teaching many years ago.

By SNY

July 21, 2006 04:22 PM | Link to this

Okay, bad idea. Then what is the answer. I know what the answer is for me but if I have to continue to pay school taxes I still want to know what is going on. If I had to do all over again, I would have been on this blog long BEFORE I had children. There is so much to consider and so much that parents just don’t know.

For all of you teachers, I went to Campbell University to attend their School of Education. During my student teaching is when I decided that I could not and would not be spoken to in any kind of way. I had a 5 year old boy tell me that his father could have me KILLED because I was black and I told him to do something. This was in 1993. (Campbell U. is in the country in North Carolina.) The teacher and the school informed me that students are getting more and more attitudes and disrespectful. Instead of slapping the kid and leaving (which is what I wanted to do), I decided that teaching wasn’t for me at that time. Well, now I am older and wiser, may I should look into the Troop-To-Teacher program.

Maybe if I (and other parents) get in the schools, we can understand better.

abc, to answer your question, 1st of all I don’t lie. I am grown, I don’t have a reason to lie. On July 12th, my daughters’ AP gave me that information. I didn’t look online and see for myself. I called the school. That information came straight from the AP. I looked for myself and saw that they did pass. But again, they were the only elementary school in the area that did. When I called the school back, the principal apologized and told me that it was a mixup. That the AP was looking at her childs school, not our school. I didn’t think that I needed to report that to the postings, sorry.

By Gwinnett Teacher

July 21, 2006 04:29 PM | Link to this

SET - the rules are there, the trick is having the administration actually enforcing them. I promise you - the teachers are following protocol, making the necessary parent contact prior to a written discipline referral, trying all other avenues before the student gets the referral - but, let me tell you - it is disheartening to do all of this, dotting your i’s and crossing your t’s - only to have an administrator make an “executive decision” to give the student a warning! What message does that send the student and his parent(s)? What message does that send the teacher?

I wish (in a way) that the parent(s) didn’t have so much control. My principal’s colon ceases if you even mention the word, “lawsuit”!

By SNY

July 21, 2006 04:33 PM | Link to this

Just,

If you don’t like the show, change the channel.

By Just Wondering

July 21, 2006 04:34 PM | Link to this

I’m with Camp ABC!

And, now I see where some of SNY’s hostility comes up! She couldn’t even hack student teaching and is bitter against those who went through it! It is so clear now!

Keep talking, SNY - everything you say gives us more insight into why you’re so abrasive.

By Manny

July 21, 2006 04:37 PM | Link to this

SNY - no, stay where you are! You are not teacher material! If you want to know more about education, do an interview or watch a documentary, but, for the love of everything you consider holy - please don’t try to teach!

By jim d

July 21, 2006 04:39 PM | Link to this

abc,

I don’t think it would make it tougher to stay in a for profit school. To the contrary, I believe it would create opportunities for more to spring up. This would create a win win situation. Public schools (non-profit)would have space freed up and reduced class size, and let’s just say the EA was maybe 85% of what the cost had been for the non profit to provide services, one could locate a profit school willing to do it for that amount and the non profit would use the other 15% to provide better services for those that chose to stay, improving the opportunities and being better able to compete with the profit schools for your business.

The bottom line is that educational services in general would improve and the children would be the benefactors. **isn’t that what we all really want?)

A side benefit would be with the demand for better teachers the competition would become feirce and teachers would be better able to negotiate contracts with higher salaries. Like I said it would be a win win situation—the looser? power mongering politicans.politicans

By abc

July 21, 2006 04:40 PM | Link to this

SNY - of course you wouldn’t think it was cogent to post a retraction of bad information you gave about a Gwinnett County public school! You are one piece of work.

By abc

July 21, 2006 04:42 PM | Link to this

jim d- I’ve never thought of it that way. You make valid points.

By Just Wondering

July 21, 2006 04:45 PM | Link to this

SNY - No, I’m just hoping it gets cancelled!

By jim d

July 21, 2006 04:51 PM | Link to this

Thanks ABC,

While I have been known to cut up some on this blog, this is an issue I take very seriously and have given a great deal of thought to.

By SET

July 21, 2006 04:52 PM | Link to this

DB - I have the same concerns about keeping the public school system viable. I’m afraid it’s a lost cause, at least in the CA urban areas.

By LB

July 21, 2006 04:58 PM | Link to this

One point I have noticed. It is very difficult to find a substitute sometimes. Most people on the sub list want to sub only for small kids under the age of 8 or 9. I have heard that middle schools are the hardest to get subs. Do any of you agree?

By jim d

July 21, 2006 05:02 PM | Link to this

Set,

I disagree, I think non profit schools can become an excellent tool. They just need some competition to make them realize they must adapt and provide services that that the customer will buy.

By jim d

July 21, 2006 05:03 PM | Link to this

Subs are hard to find becuase they don’t pay them enough.

By catlady

July 21, 2006 05:03 PM | Link to this

SNY, after 13 years (since you student taught), I can tell you it is 1000% worse than that in some schools. Black or white teacher, black or white kids. It would really be great for you to visit, unannounced (check in with the office to get a badge) to get a feel for the schools around you that you are supporting. If all taxpayers and parents (sometimes two separate groups) would do this we might see some very fast improvement! It would take a great deal of pressure from almost everyone. There are too many vested interests in the status quo.

Many politicians don’t have kids in public school; ie, the stupid laws and rules that have been inflicted on us. Many school board members know all there is to know about school because they went to first grade! Many administrators have been out of the classroom a long time or were ineffective when they were in the classroom and were “kicked up”.

By Gwinnett Teacher

July 21, 2006 05:06 PM | Link to this

LB - you are absolutely right. I teach high school, and there are some subs who will only sub for particular teachers! I happen to be on that list because my students are disciplined and know that I will pursue any bad report a substitute leaves. I also leave very explicit plans, so, as long as you have a pulse and can read - you should be fine in my classroom. In my county, the middle school teachers are actually responsible for calling their own subs!

By LB

July 21, 2006 05:24 PM | Link to this

Actually, I am a Gwinnett County sub and I have had, sometimes 3 calls in a morning from teachers who are frantic to find a sub. As much as I would like to say yes to all of them I can only sub for one at a time. My heart really goes out to the teachers. I love subbing and wish more people did. I have been asked before to sub in situations where classes were already split because they needed two subs and just got me. If it is a situation where the class is hard to teach even for a regular teacher it is even more difficult for a sub, then add another third of a class. I must say, that particular day I was fighting the tears. I was treated like a dog by the kids. I am proud to say, however the administrative staff, principal and teachers stuck up for me. Even after all of this I really like subbing and I like the kids. The continuous trouble makers are a royal pain and I have pointed this out a few times here and they need to be dealt with. But on the whole, I have found my niche in life.

By Counting the days...

July 21, 2006 05:28 PM | Link to this

The last year I taught high school (which was 5 years ago), I accidentally participated in one of those “grand plans” that attempted to isolate the troubled ones and the repeat offenders. (None of this was on paper, understand, so no child was technically being called a “troublemaker” or “deliquent.” It was the brain child of a guidance counselor.)

The class was a 9th grade English class that had a total of 28 studetnts. 24 of those students had failed 9th grade English at least once, over half of those had failed it at least twice. 18 of the students were on probation of some sort and 7 of them wore those nifty little ankle bracelets courtesy of the judicial system. These were hard core children who were either waiting for their 16th birthday or who were ordered by a judge somewhere to either go to school or go to jail. (They didn’t have to pass or anything in school….just attend.) Oh yeah…and then there were 4 little 14 year old first year 9th graders. Bless them.

At the end of the first day, I found a phone and called the parents of those 4 “innocent”children, talked about the black atmosphere in the class, and encouraged them to raise tee total hell until their little darlings were placed in a different classroom. Two of those parents were up there within 30 minutes of my phone call…the other two were up there the next day.

I poured a tremendous amount of work in to my plans that semester, attempting to teach English skills that they would find in the “real world.” (Filling out job applications, reading rental agreements, etc.) I made a huge deviation from the normal curriculum in a mad attempt to reach them before they dropped out of school.

By the time the smoke cleared at the end of the semester, there were only 11 students still remaining in class (the rest either dropped out, became incarcerated, etc). Want to know something amazing? 4 of those students passed.

I actually did a cartwheel because I felt that I had managed to “save” 4 students in spite of themselves. My assistant-principal at the time pitched a fit because “only” 4 out of 24 had passed the class.

After that, I knew my days were numbered in that high school where I had taught for 13 years. Every lesson plan was scrutinized, every move I made was questioned, and I finally resigned at the end of the year out of sheer frustration.

It sounds absolutely wonderful to isolate all the trouble makers, doesn’t it? But then you have to consider that someone…somewhere…gets to have the very unrewarding job of trying to teach them.

It’s hell. Trust me. Been there.

By DB

July 21, 2006 05:35 PM | Link to this

Counting: I’ve been there, done that, too… I feel for you. But if you had real authority over them, and they knew it, things would be much different.

By DB

July 21, 2006 05:46 PM | Link to this

Counting: That sounds like a pretty good system to me, only the Principal should not be held accountable for those that dropped out or failed. He should be commended for the 4 that passed who didn’t have a chance in he** otherwise. And, for you, you can say you definitely changed the world, at least a little bit. And you should get even more credit than the principal. You see, our whole system looks at things the wrong way. If they were to keep on doing just that, the next year it would have been 6, then 8, then eventually, if all the schools stick to that mindset, we’ll have higher expectations and maybe even start letting kids rise above the poverty and trash they’re born into.

By DB

July 21, 2006 05:54 PM | Link to this

I do know one thing. The worst kids act just fine when they know they have to or when they know someone cares about them. We just need to go back to basics and let them know they have to, at least in school.

By DB

July 21, 2006 05:56 PM | Link to this

This has been fun, but I’m blogged out for now!

By Counting the days...

July 21, 2006 06:20 PM | Link to this

DB…I agree. I do believe that the majority of teachers went into teaching because they do care a great deal for kids. If you ask any up-coming student teacher, they will all tell you how much they love children and how they want to treat them with respect and dignity, treating them as if they were their very own children.

Then….the reality of the public school hits with weinie administrators, a handful of psycho parents, and out of control kids. The kids who are on the edge of possibly being reached are booted over the edge by a system that is concerned more about their temporary feelings of self-esteem and less about their future.

The NEA reports that 3 out of 5 teachers leave during their first five years of teaching. 27% plan to leave teaching before retirement. The top two reasons why teachers leave are salary and working conditions (NEA, 2003). Of the 500,000 teachers who left the profession in 2000, nearly one fourth left due to a lack of appropriate administrative support (Millinger, 2004).

Scary, isn’t it? Those folks who are always ranting that we need to get better teachers might want to start figuring out how we can keep teachers from leaving. There are very few “great teachers” right out of the university…and it takes a while to hone those skills.

Millinger, C. S. (2004).Helping new teachers cope. Educational Leadership. 66-69.

(2003). Status of the American public school teacher 2000-2001. In National Education Association (Ed.), Washington, D.C.: NEA.

By Lee

July 25, 2006 08:36 PM | Link to this

There are probably only two questions you need to ask:

(1) “What is the name of the lawyer most parents use?”

(2) “How many teachers at this school send their children to private school?”

If they know lawyers on a first name basis and the teachers won’t send their kids there, you need to run away as fast as you can….