Get Schooled

By SNY

July 12, 2006 03:39 PM | Link to this

I am choosing a school with little to no diversity and it is religious. This way I know that most of the teachers and the classmates believe in the same values and principles. I tried to go the diverse route and it was the TOTAL opposite. If my child is going to be in a school that has either all white students or all black students, I choose all black students.

You might not believe this, but some black kids do not pay white teachers any attention. A black teacher would only have to speak once and a white teacher would have to say it over and over again. Is it right - no, but it does happen. My child is a perfect example. She says that the white teachers don’t say it like they mean it so she doesn’t take them seriously. I tell them to get harsh and they are afraid. For some kids, being harsh is the only thing they understand.

By Litmajor

July 12, 2006 03:54 PM | Link to this

We’ve had a mass influx of section 8 kids into my son’s elementary school due to people purchasing starter homes and then renting them out. It has had a profound effect on test scores and overall school climate. I’ve been told that it is even worse at the middle school level.

I prefer a diverse school because all children need to know that there are others that are not like them. Unfortunately, when that diversity includes a lot of students from low SES backgrounds everything goes out the window. I’ve seen the “downside” happen right before my eyes.

When I look at potential schools, I look at the race indicator out of pure habit. I wouldn’t want my children being the only blacks in the school. At the same time, I pay plenty attention to the SES level.

SNY- Why would a teacher need to sound as if they meant something for a child to obey? My kids wouldn’t be able to get away with something like that. To each his own though.

By Nja

July 12, 2006 03:56 PM | Link to this

Hmmm. There are black students who don’t listen to either black or white teachers. They are just outright disrespectful.

SNY- there is no way my child could tell me that his teacher does not say it like they mean it so he doesn’t take them seriously. I teach my son to respect ALL adults.

My son was in a mostly black private school. It was a very good school and it provided him with the foundation I felt that he needed. I am now looking to put him in a more diverse setting. I don’t want him with all black students or all white students. I would also prefer that the staff was multi-racial but I think that may be a little difficult to find.

I grew up in NY and we had over a hundred different ethnicities at my high school. Now that I have relocated to the south- I truly miss that.

By Nikole

July 12, 2006 04:04 PM | Link to this

SNY- I don’t recall having had a black teacher until I went to college, so let me assure you that there are plenty of white teachers that are experts at classroom management.
Diversity is great, Patti you once did a blog topic about schools in one of the Carolinas that based school population on ses diversity and the lower income kids did better, the middle-class students did as well as they always had.

By Litmajor

July 12, 2006 04:05 PM | Link to this

Nja-

My husband grew up in Westchester County and he really misses the diverse schools and neighborhoods that he had back home. Flipping through his yearbook is like visiting the UN:))

By SNY

July 12, 2006 04:08 PM | Link to this

First of all, I never said that I condoned her feelings. I did set her straight right away, but she is human and she is entitled to her feelings. Of course I teach my child to respect all adults but don’t act like your kids (Litmajor and Nja) never mess up in school. I correct the problem and we go on. That doesn’t mean that I don’t listen to my child.

If I could find a school with all males in the administration and all male teachers, I would put my daughter there in a minute. We need more men to step up and be teachers. I’ve found that with my daughter, the strict presence of a man makes her stay on her P’s and Q’s.

By Preferences

July 12, 2006 04:24 PM | Link to this

The ideal school for my children would be a nice racial mix but high SES. Poor parents don’t seem to have enough time to commit to parenting because they are working. Often these households are single parent homes and that’s why they are poor. I am not saying ALL, and I’m just stating what I have seen.

I know one thing: My children will learn to obey their teachers “elders” WHATEVER the color, because who knows, they might have a white boss one day who doesn’t “talk like he means it”. But if he signs their check by God they better listen to him.

By Beleaguered teacher

July 12, 2006 04:28 PM | Link to this

During the last sixteen years of teaching in a suburban high school, I have made some observations about rapidly changing demographics. Schools should be about providing an education for adult, independant living, NOT venues for cultural microcosms! Too often rules that are established to promote learning are violated because… well, it’s just part of the student’s culture. It is distracting TO ME to encounter bosoms and boxer shorts, of any color, all day long. The persistent usage of culturally identifiable language is often not compatible with skills needed to pass the graduation exam. It belies my determined efforts to teach grammatical principles. Diversity of thinking is appreciated and enjoyed. However, students should not be able to flaunt clothing, music and value systems that are offensive to any other group. For example, personal birthdays should not be intrusive in the halls and classroom. Yet, too many balloon bouquet, stuffed animal-carrying students parade around school with dollars pinned to their clothing shaking down others for money. There are many more crude examples of inappropriateness by all cultural groups. The UK serves multiple racial groups - they wear uniforms and students know their behavior must adapt to what is best for the learning environment. I think we’ve over-celebrated diversity at the expense of the more important purpose.

By HB

July 12, 2006 04:39 PM | Link to this

Nja, thanks for mentioning the many different ethnicities present in your NY school as opposed to race. I think many people/organizations focus primarily on race in determining whether or not a place is diverse. I lived in New England for a few years in a city where many people claimed the schools were less diverse than the South because the student bodies were overwhelmingly white. In reality, though, they represented a broad ethnic range, coming from different religious backgrounds (mostly Roman Catholic and Jewish) with many speaking langauges other than English at home (Hebrew, Portugese, Italian, French Russian were all common), even though their families have been in the U.S. for a couple of generations. Five and six-year-olds were often biligual (or even trilingual! I knew one kid who spoke Russian with his mom, French with his dad, and English with his friends).

My high school in GA, on the other hand, was racially diverse, with almost equal numbers of white and black students, plus a tiny minority of Indian-American students and a few Japanese students (children of executives temporarily placed at a nearby manufacturing plant). I don’t think of the school as being particularly diverse, though, as virtual all the students were Methodist or Baptist and their families proabably all had lived in rural GA since the early 1800s.

So I guess my question is, what exactly makes a school diverse? What matters most diversity-wise? Ethnic diversity? Economic? Racial? Also, does anyone know how schools determine what category a student falls into? Do parents/students identify themselves by race or income level or whatever, or do officials assign them to categories?

By catlady

July 12, 2006 04:43 PM | Link to this

I always have to laugh when people say they love diversity as long as it is with people just like themselves (except for skin color). It reminds me of when I moved to a totally white county in North Georgia in 1973 and was told by a fellow teacher that he was not prejudiced toward blacks. I asked him how many blacks he went to school or college with and how many lived in his neighborhood. He replied, “None, but I have seen them on TV before and they didn’t bother me.” Diversity means a lot more than skin color, folks!

By teach overseas

July 12, 2006 04:44 PM | Link to this

I think there are really two different types of diversity which are important in schools. We seem to talk about diversity in only black/white issues. But the biggest diversity issue in schools is ability diversity. If you have a school with only one ethnic group, the cream will rise to the top- leaving the others behind. If you have an ethnically diverse student body, the blacks will stick with the blacks and the whites will stick with the whites regardless of ability. This social pressure on blacks (not understood by most white teachers) is the single biggest hinderence on black student achievement.

By Nja

July 12, 2006 04:45 PM | Link to this

Not all black students wear their pants sagging, walk around repeating raunchy rap lyrics or having aspirations to become the biggest drug dealer or basketball player. This may be a subculture within the black community but it is not universal. And that is not the definition of diversity. Like Litmajor says a lot has to do with SES. I do like the idea of all students wearing uniforms.

And for the record- I have had NO PROBLEMS (knocking on wood) with my son and his education. His behavior and academic work are excellent. I would love to show you his standardized test scores and his straight A report card :) In fact, each teacher he has had has commended me on his behavior and his knowledge.

For me learning has always been fun and that’s what I have passed on to my child.

By Cammi

July 12, 2006 04:50 PM | Link to this

My daughter’s school a rainbow of diversity. If I recall correctly, there are students who speak 31 different dialects from many different countries in my daughter’s elementary school. They made AYP. Is the percentage of meeting and exceeding as high as I would like to see it…NO it is not. The point, however, is that every year the school improves and makes AYP. There is a definite lack of parental involvment stemming mainly from cultural and language barriers, but somehow they manage to take a few steps forward each year. It is something that takes time and patience. I am on the school council board at my daughter’s school and we are constantly looking for ways to break down those barriers. I do know that those teachers in her school work hard, and as long as my daughter is in attendance I will work as hard towards a solution.

By Nja

July 12, 2006 04:52 PM | Link to this

Yes, HB. It is interesting went from a very diverse childhood and HS environment, as I stated early over a hundred ethnicities and oh so many different religions. Then I went to a predominately black college where we had people of every religion and from several different countries. I then went to a predominately white graduate school. Where everyone grew up in the state and were all Christians. So yes, diversity is definitely more than race. And unfortunately that is hard to find in the south. It’s pretty much white, black and hispanic. If NY wasn’t so cold and the cost of living so high. LOL!

By Patti Ghezzi

July 12, 2006 04:55 PM | Link to this

Hi HB, for the purposes of No Child Left Behind, the categories are : White, African-American, Latino, Multiracial, Native American, Asian/Pacific Islander, Economically disadvantaged, English Language Learners and students with disabilities.

The more subgroups a school has, the harder it is to make AYP.

Patti

By teach overseas

July 12, 2006 05:01 PM | Link to this

SNY-

Why is it that one has to be so harsh and strict with your child to get her to listen and obey?

By Litmajor

July 12, 2006 05:04 PM | Link to this

It is sad that in 2006, we still have to constantly reiterate that there is a subculture within the black community. I shake my head in shame and misunderstanding at the fake and real thug images that I see played out and at the same time, my white friends do the same thing when they see the sterotypical shoeless, toothless, redneck. It goes both ways.

I’d like to believe that we all want the best education possible for our children.

By Devonte

July 12, 2006 05:30 PM | Link to this

I don’t consider thug culture to be diversity. It is criminal behavior and idiocy. Blacks in this country would be eons ahead of where they are now if this ridiculous hip hop, thug culture hadn’t taken over. Blacks only have themselves to blame. Other races do not buy into this garbage to the extent that they do. That is why as a race, they are way, way behind all of the other races.

Throw the hip hop thugs in jail and you will have a chance at success.

By SNY

July 12, 2006 05:30 PM | Link to this

teach overseas,

When my daughter was in daycare, all of her teachers were right and let her run around and act however she wanted. They would always tell her that she was so cute and sweet and that whatever she did wrong was okay. When I mean wrong, I don’t mean biting or hitting. Just little things like wanting to play instead of listen to the story. Or wanting to play instead of taking a nap. Then, the real world hit her and hit her hard. She went to an all black private school. At that point, she thought that she could get away with the same behaviors in school and she found out the hard way that she couldn’t.

But, as soon as she went into an all white classroom this year, she felt that she could start back to her old behaviors and the teacher did the same thing as her former daycare teacher did.

I enforce a different set of standards and home and we have no problems with her at home. The problem arose when I would go to scold her at daycare and at school and the teacher would say “oh, that’s alright, she is so cute and sweet. As long as she isn’t hurting anyone and her work is done it’s okay”. Then the day (at school) would come when she would do something a little bit bolder and a little bit bolder and so on. So by the end of the year, I put my foot in her behind and I said “enough is enough”. When she realized that she couldn’t hide behind being cute and that there was no one there to save her, she became the child at school that she is at home.

It’s kind of complicated to put into words on a blog but I know that alot of it came from me not putting my foot down sooner. I have corrected my shortcomings and since she is going back to her private school, I won’t have that problem anymore.

By Ernest

July 12, 2006 05:37 PM | Link to this

HB raises good points. I’m a southerner and interpreted diversity to mean looking at racial and/or SES differences when I was younger. Being older and having traveled somewhat, I now realize that was a small view of the world.

While it would be nice for my children to be exposed to other ethnicities and cultures during school, I will not actively seek it if it could compromise their education. I can rationalize that I can help with this exposure during the summer with camps and traveling.

By Gwinnett Teacher

July 12, 2006 05:38 PM | Link to this

SNY - does the teacher have to have a dark complexion for your daughter to listen to her? I ask because I am sometimes mistaken for biracial or Hispanic, although I am African-American. Would your daughter listen to me?

There is a HUGE problem if your daughter needs to be yelled at in order for her to take an adult seriously!! What have you done to that child?

By Manny

July 12, 2006 05:43 PM | Link to this

SNY - you won’t have that problem in private school because you perceive you won’t have that problem! You went into the public school environment (into an already failing school) with misgivings, and you fulfilled your own prophesy.

By HB

July 12, 2006 05:44 PM | Link to this

Thanks, Patti! Do you know if families identify themselves or if officials assign students to categories? The reason I ask is that I know in employment diversity surveys (not necessarily in the education field), sometimes employers are not allowed to ask employees about their race, so often, an HR person fills out the survey and determines employee race by sight (obviously not a great way of doing things). Same is often true for visitor/customer studies — no one asks a visitor about race, the person selling a ticket just takes a guess based on sight. I was just wondering if the same problem arises in classifying students. For the economic category, do all families provide income information, or is that based on free and reduced lunch recipients?

By lynn d

July 12, 2006 06:08 PM | Link to this

According to a December 2003 study from the University of California at Berkeley and the University of Southern California, diverse schools face much larger challenges of making annual yearly progress as required by No Child Left Behind (NCLB). Under NCLB, not only is the performance of the entire school evaluated, but that of each racial and ethnic subgroup that numbers above 40 students.

The study found that California schools with the wealthiest students have an 83 percent chance of meeting their academic targets if they have only one subgroup. With six subgroups, even wealthy schools have only a 53 percent chance of making AYP, the study found. The pattern sharpens at schools with poorer students, so that schools with 75 percent or more poor students and six subgroups have only a 16 percent chance of meeting targets.

By SET

July 12, 2006 06:17 PM | Link to this

Interesting posts. Diversity to most people is about mixing low class with upper or middle class students, not just mixong races. Problem is that the upper/middle students turn the lower class into roadkill in any competitive setting and the lower class kids get frustrated and angry. The only level on which they can compete and win is willingness to use violence - where they do excell.

I’d prefer a diverse school where everyone is smart. But even then they may hate each other - or drive each other crazy. People prefer to stay in their comfort level (Especially Blacks in the USA). This is my long experience. Since I’d want my schools to be competitive and to ruthlessly enforce standards - Stupid people would leave or get flunked out. But then, I grew up in schools like this. (Through grad school)

A competitive and diverse environment is not as much fun as a segregated environment. You would be forced to change in a competitive environment until you are no longer “Black”, Asian”, “Jewish”, Female, Young, - you are just “IBM” or “WalMart (Corporate) or whatever Army you have joined. Most minorities I’ve experienced bristle at having to conform to any new reality. They want to be back on the reservation.

This is one reason why minorities (including women) flunk probation in significantly higher numbers at Police Departments, Mainstream Law Firms, Hospital Residencies, any serious competitive environment. They are also kept out of these environments because they can’t get pass the hiring screens as often as mainstream candidates can. If a Minority candidate tries to keep it “real” they get bounced out on their rears. Competitive environments don’t accomodate the individual, the individual does all the accomodating. I’ve seen this happen to certain relatives and not to others. We weren’t surprised who had the problems.

You can have diversity in noncompetitive environments where people can’t fail. Like a Non-Profit with Gates’ feeding them endless money. People can act any way they want and it doesn’t matter.

So maybe we have to chose which institutions we want “diversity” in - Social Work? Daycare? Teaching? and Which institutions we require quality in - Medicine, Law, Nuclear subs - and proceed accordingly??

Brave New World!

By thomas

July 12, 2006 06:20 PM | Link to this

This whole diversity argument is a moot point. Nobody really wants “diversity”. Most people gravitate toward people like themselves.

Besides if everyone wanted diversity, we would not have the segregation we have now. Most students DO NOT attend diverse schools. The schools are either mostly white, mostly black, or black/hispanic. They are either mostly middle class, mostly working class/lower middle class, or poor.

On the surface we want diversity, but in practice we don’t. It goes for all of us- parents, students, and teachers. We prefer environments that make us comfortable.

By Thomas

July 12, 2006 06:31 PM | Link to this

The question that should be asked is: SHOULD WE PUSH FOR A DIVERSITY OF ABILITY LEVELS IN CLASSROOM AND SCHOOL SETTINGS?

This is something that I think would be a good topic to discuss. I have learned through experience that students (regardless of race, gender, economic group, etc) learn more through heterogenous grouping than through tracking.

By SET

July 12, 2006 06:31 PM | Link to this

Thomas:

You said “We prefer environments that make us comfortable.”

Have you seen the new movie “The Devil Wears Prada”? The heroine works in a uncomfortable, stressfull low-paying environment. She is told from the beginning that “millions of girls would kill to have your job”. She eventually burns out and quits because she couldn’t take it anymore.

People often take jobs and go into uncomfortable environments. Not to mention the California Car Commutes to these jobs.

Why does anyone want to work in an Inner City High School?

Maybe we do these jobs because we have something to prove?

By SET

July 12, 2006 06:39 PM | Link to this

SNY:

It’s only the modern whites & white liberals who are afraid and reluctant to correct blacks.

The WW2 generation Whites I grew up around and worked with in the beginning of my career had no problems whatsoever confronting and correcting blacks.

They were “The Greatest Generation” and we won’t see the like of them again. This bunch we have today can’t even build a freeway on a decent timetable.

Brave New World.

By jim d

July 13, 2006 08:13 AM | Link to this

Since this discussion is becoming a black white issue, here’s food for thought.

Could NCLB just be politician’s way around school bussing?

Since parents, both black and white, objected to bussing and the courts eventually eliminated it, could this just be another method that parents and judges couldn’t possibly object to, that would produce the same results?

Think about it. What parent would want their child stuck in what the Government has deemed an inferior school. Offering transfers leads parents to choose from schools accepting students from failing schools. And who chooses which schools will accept transfers?

Since this really isn’t in the best interest of any of the kids, it certainly makes me wonder if this isn’t just another political attempt to equalize diversity though-out our schools.

By SNY

July 13, 2006 08:30 AM | Link to this

Manny,

It isn’t that I perceive that I won’t have that problem, the fact is that I DID NOT have that problem when we attended the school before. We are actually returning to a school that my daughter attended before this past school year. I already know the teachers, administrators and the routine of the school. It feels like going home. My daughter is very excited.

Gwinnett Teacher,

What do you mean “what did I do to my daughter?” I didn’t do anything to her. I always speak in a harsh tone. Not just with my children but with anyone. I guess it was the way that my mother spoke to me and my sister and the way all of my friends parents spoke to us growing up. There is none of this “please pick up your toys” in a soft tone. I say “pick up your toys and put them in the toy box or they are going in the trash” and most of the time it comes out in an authoritative voice. My mother told me when I was pregnant that I had to establish early with my children that they move when I speak. I’m doing exactly what my mother did with me and I turned out to be pretty good. Although I have to admit that when we moved to the suburbs when I was a teenager, all of my suburban friends felt that my mother was mean and scary. My friends from the other neighborhood understood her perfectly.

So don’t ask what have I done to her like I abuse her or something. I don’t. I tell her to do something and I expect for her to do it. It is the daycare teachers in the past who didn’t expect or make her do as she was told. And before you ask, remember that kids are toddlers when they are in daycare and they learn to manipulate very early in life. My child was no different than any other toddler her age in that respect.

By jim d

July 13, 2006 09:10 AM | Link to this

Can someone help me understand How redistributing failing students though-out a school system helps the kids?

How does this procedure guarantee individual students will show improvement?

It occurs to me that this simply provides an illusion of improvement.

By SNY

July 13, 2006 09:14 AM | Link to this

jim d,

Good thought. Something that needs to be looked into more.

By Elane

July 13, 2006 09:18 AM | Link to this

I really think SNY has something of a point. Sad in a way, but it’s proven (by statistics and my own personal experience) that “tough” generally beats “love” when you’re trying to get people to do what you want. My best boss terrorized me and everybody in the department — she had a “take no prisoners” approach. None of us really liked her, but boy, you never had to worry about what she really wanted. No hints, no “when you have a chance, would you think about doing…” If you did something wrong, she put you straight in a hurry. It really made it so much easier to get the job done. The expectations were crystal clear, and it was about the job, not personalities or emotions. Refreshing after so many wimpy bosses, teachers, and parents bending themselves double, wearing themselves out trying to be nice, tactful and diplomatic. Frankly, it’s only abuse when a teacher or boss applies the strict rules to one person and not somebody else based on personal likes & dislikes. Kids (and adults) appreciate a direct approach. When they don’t, it’s because they’re used to making up their own rules and manipulating the system.

By Lisa B.

July 13, 2006 09:21 AM | Link to this

SNY, Wow! You have given me some insight on the occassional noncompliant students I’ve had. Perhaps those few children were raised to ignore adults unless the adults spoke harshly to them. I NEVER raise my voice at students, or give ultimatums. I ALWAYS say “please,” and “thank-you,” and expect my students to do the same. I consider myself a firm, no nonsense teacher, and have always had an orderly, well disciplined, 4th grade classroom. If children do not follow my rules, they spend a great deal of time in the office and miss instruction, which impacts them academically. Fortunately, most children comply when treated fairly and with respect. I am not about to start treating children harshly, and hope my son never has teachers treat him that way either.

By SNY

July 13, 2006 09:26 AM | Link to this

Elane,

Thank you, you said exactly what I was trying to say only BETTER! Teachers just have to be direct with my kid, just like I am. Perfect!!

Thanks Elane!!!!!!!!!!!

By jim d

July 13, 2006 09:38 AM | Link to this

Thanks SNY,

It also occurs to me that this procedure would really benefit the mega schools, to the detriment of the smaller schools that historically have done a better all around job. Since the percentages would be disproportionate, moving a few failing students from a mega school to a smaller school could drastically change the picture.

By Ernest

July 13, 2006 09:51 AM | Link to this

I like the food you are serving Jim D!!! IMO, NCLB is resulting in more busing than from the days of M to M. I believe most would agree that housing patterns is a key in determining the makeup and ultimate success of a school. Many of us live in some combination of where we feel comfortable and/or where we can afford housing. If one’s personal circumstances results in your children attending a school where other’s may not emphasize education as much as you, should the child be ‘condemned’ to a ‘lesser’ educational experience? I’m trying to be as ‘PC’ as possible in saying this so give me a little latitude.

I see NCLB clearly and publicly identifying characteristics of our school systems that many of us know but may not have openly acknowledged. I also believe the compassionate side in most of us feel this is worthwhile while the conservative side in us wonders if it will compromise the educational experience for our children.

By SET

July 13, 2006 09:54 AM | Link to this

I’ve been thinking about SNY’s comments about what it takes to manage (blacks?) her daughter. Patti might dare to set up a blog about whether the readership believes that different management styles work best for different ethnics…

A scary thought - wonder what the collective experience of the readership would be? I’m the first to admit that there are ethnic differences based on different maturation rates and different avg IQ in the ethnics. The groups are quite different on even things such as age at which they first sit up.

Our public school teachers have 9th grade classes where one group is well into puberty and another group hasn’t started. Gee, wonder why it takes more energy to redirect some people who are busy chatting about their relationships?

But we expect everybody to be “equal” and do their algebra assignments the same. Or at least the orthodoxy thinks. Well it’s not just puberty issues. The physical differences are there from the nursery. Can you run a room with of 9 year old Irish boys and 9 year old hispanic girls and treat them all the same? (The Nuns I went to school with didn’t - no apologies from them.) People are different and require different attention. It’s one of the blessings of diversity. You might have to raise a voice with some (Italian Nuns were into vocalization - the Irish Nuns preferred the direct approach - we had both).

Is this shocking?

By SNY

July 13, 2006 09:54 AM | Link to this

Lisa B.,

I don’t have to raise my voice at my daughter. I scream and holler at her all day long. I say thank you when she is done doing what it is that I tell her to do. I guess my tone just says “do it now”. I guess I can’t explain it. It is what it is. The teachers at her private school get her to do what she is suppose to do so obviously whatever they are doing is working. I have no complaints about the way they treat or speak to her and neither does she. I guess you have to do what works for you and I have to do what works for me.

Life is no joke and the people that my daughter ends up working for are not always going to be nice and tactful. She needs to know that now. Not when she gets her feelings hurt at the age of 21 or older when she gets into the work force.

Again, remember that I am talking about the teachers that coddle their students. You don’t seem like that type of teacher. I know that you teachers want to believe that all of you do everything right, but you don’t and your co-workers don’t either. There are some kids out there that you just can’t coddle. You teach - I’ll coddle when she needs it. It may seem harsh to the teachers that truly love their students but I’m a very involved parent and I know when my kid needs extra love and attention. I know when a kid on the playground upset her. I just look at her face and I know everything. She wears her heart on her sleeve. I’m not saying don’t care, I’m saying don’t spoil.

By HB

July 13, 2006 10:05 AM | Link to this

SNY, you are right that people aren’t always going to be nice and tactful and that kids need to know how to handle it when someone is harsh. On the other hand, though, people aren’t always going to be harsh either. Isn’t it just as important for her to know it’s important to take people seriously even if they don’t use a harsh tone? I think it’s unrealistic to ask a teacher to use a different tone with your daughter than with other students so that she’ll know the teacher means business. You need to help your daughter adjust to different tones of voice and respond accordingly, not expect all teachers to adjust to her.

By SNY

July 13, 2006 10:11 AM | Link to this

SET,

I can’t speak for allblack children, I just know what works for mine. If people don’t like it - too bad. If they think it is something that I did - oh well. Like my husband tells his employees about their jobs - IT IS WHAT IT IS!!

By Gwinnett Teacher

July 13, 2006 10:22 AM | Link to this

SNY - Wow, that explains everything!

Your daughter has to be “spoken to harshly” to take one seriously. That is so sad.

I’m African-American, and I don’t yell at my own children, and I will not yell at my students either. So, readers - please don’t believe that African-Americans must be yelled! This is SNY’s upbringing (sadly) and she’s visiting this same parenting on her own child. Amazingly, they ALL know when I’m serious! I call them ‘sir’ and ‘maam’ and say, ‘please’ and ‘thank you’ and they do the same in kind.

My own children (we have four!) have always received compliments for being so polite and so mannerable and have never really given us any real problems.

I’m one of the strictest teachers and one of the most effective teachers at my school - AND I DON’T YELL AT MY STUDENTS! Your child would not do well with me because I would not try to disrespect her into doing what I want her to do!

I find that this type of “parenting” is most prevalent with single mothers who mistakenly believe that they have to be the “mother and the father” since there is no father in the household. They believe that being loud and harsh with their children compensates for not having a male influence in the child’s life. I guess that’s one of the reasons why so many African-American males end up in jail - they haven’t taken the police seriously until they get arrested!

Sad, Brave New World (thanks, SET)

By SNY

July 13, 2006 10:33 AM | Link to this

OOPS,

On my post at 9:54 I meant to say that I DON’T holler and scream at her all day. Sorry trying to work and post. I made a mistake.

Gwinnett Teacher, I made a mistake typing, chill out.

By Really?

July 13, 2006 10:41 AM | Link to this

Jim D,

The idea is that the students are failing because the schools aren’t doing a good job teaching them. I don’t tend to believe that as much as I believe that some schools get contentrations of kids who start out behind, BUT the idea of the transfers is, if the school isn’t getting it done, then you do have options.

Now, unfortunately, the local districts, rather than the same people who declare which schools failed, get to pick the schools accepting transfers, so I don’t think it’s going to work.

I don’t think politicians want busing at all. If they thought the public wanted it, they’d want it, and we’d have it. They are in favor of giving people choices to improve their children’s education. (Or at least, in giving illusions of choices to improve).

Patti,

Isn’t a little racist or ethnicist of you to assume that “diverse” student can’t achieve at the same level as whites? I mean if you go back and look at your original post, that idea has to be assumed by your question. Otherwise, it wouldn’t matter how many subgroups a school had if they were all as likely to achieve.

I think the SWD groups probably is a hard group to get at grade level at all schools, and it was the one area that I thought eventually no school could meet. The fact that the kids have learning disabilities does make them less likely to achieve academically or they wouldn’t be disabled. (However, it think it would be really strange for any schools not to have at least 40 in this subgroup. The school would have to be tiny indeed or maybe a magnet.)

I also think that English Language Learners are going to have a hard time with tests in English, but unless we’re doing to offer classes in ALL the languages a student might speak, it’s important to make sure ELL students are actually learning too. If you don’t measure it, it’s likely to get ignored. Students will be passes through, and then everyone will sue when they don’t pass the graduation test.

Maybe the subgroups should be smaller to “count” but when you get into really tiny groups, then the idea that because one student did poorly, the whole school fails kicks in a lot earlier than the 2012 deadline of NCLB.

By Gwinnett Teacher

July 13, 2006 10:42 AM | Link to this

SNY - I’m always “chilled”! Perhaps you should take your own advice. And while I’m giving out advice - I’ve seen you get BLASTED on this blog many times - sometimes warranted, sometimes not. Maybe you would get better results if you didn’t get so defensive and lash out when someone disagrees with you. If you put all of your dirty laundry on a blog for any and everybody to read - you have to expect that there are people are not going to agree with everything you say! You’ve said that you appreciate the comments on this blog - and it seems that you spend a lot of time on it. So, don’t be so ugly with people when they offer you suggestions or disagree with you - unless you’re ready to get torn a new one!

By SET

July 13, 2006 10:55 AM | Link to this

Maybe it’s a guy thing, but I didn’t raise my voice when I was in the classroom. I did other things to get the student’s attention. When I finished with some of them they probably would have preferred to have just been yelled at.

Actions speak louder than words.

Gwinett Teacher: Is the syndrome you’re referring to involving the black boys (and white wanna-bes) who can’t groom themselves or wear a belt to keep their pants above their rear ends? I can take one look at these brats and say they have no father. No man would let his son go about looking like that.

Single mothers can’t tell fully grown boys how to groom and dress - so it seems. On occasion I’ve told them they are wearing a signboard for all to see that they’re bastard children (“don’t hire me!”) and they might want to tone it down. Most of them have never thought there is a connection between the signboard they wear and their bad circumstances. They just thought it was fashion, not a social advertisement.

By SET

July 13, 2006 11:02 AM | Link to this

Gwinnett Teacher:

As far as Patti has said we are not here to blast each other or to get into personal exchanges. I don’t always agree with SNY but I value every bit of info she states about her point of view. If I wanted to talk with people who agree with me I can go to work.

Sometimes people say more about their circumstances than others. If we don’t like what we hear on the blog we respond to the policy and the issues and leave the personalities for our co-workers and our kids. Them we know.

By Gwinnett Teacher

July 13, 2006 11:04 AM | Link to this

SET - and to piggy-back your comments - I often tell these young men that even if they aren’t thugs, why would they want to wear the thug uniform? I give the old analogy of the man in the blue uniform with a badge and a gun. You’d assume he’s a police officer. When they see your pants around your knees and your gold “grill” in your mouth, people assume you’re a thug - whether you are or not!

By SNY

July 13, 2006 11:06 AM | Link to this

Gwinnett Teacher,

Do NOT sterotype me. I am happily married with 2 children and they both have the same father. Don’t go there with me. I made a mistake when I typed in the post. Get over yourself.

HB,

Again, I am not asking all teachers to change the way that they talk to my daughter. I am putting her back into a school that she responds to. People let’s remember that she is still young and has years to change who she will be when she gets older. She learns new lessons everyday. Although, I am trying to show her little bit by little bit. She’s a child, she isn’t set in her ways yet.

By Patti Ghezzi

July 13, 2006 11:17 AM | Link to this

In response to Really? who asks:

Patti, Isn’t a little racist or ethnicist of you to assume that “diverse” student can’t achieve at the same level as whites?

Yes, I think that would be racist. But that’s not what I’m saying. I am saying that diverse schools have more hoops to jump through than those with students all of the same race. Schools where all the students are African-American have an easier time logistically making AYP than a school with a variety of students including Hispanics and English Language Learners because schools have to meet the standard in each subgroup. No Child Left Behind is Pass-Fail. One group falls short and you’re screwed. It’s like one school juggling two oranges and another juggling six.

Does that make sense?

By Gwinnett Teacher

July 13, 2006 11:21 AM | Link to this

SNY - What are you talking about? How did I stereotype you?

By Litmajor

July 13, 2006 11:22 AM | Link to this

Patti,

Can you explain how a school comes up with the SES demographics? Does it come solely from the free/reduced lunch form? Someone asked earlier but I’m interested in the answer as well. Thanks!

By Nja

July 13, 2006 11:23 AM | Link to this

There are just too many assumptions and generalizations made on this board.

There is no such thing as all public schools are… all private schools are… all whites are… all blacks are… all single parents are… all rich are… all low income are…

Thank goodness I have had the opportunity to work in more than one region with people of very diverse (not just black and white or rich and poor)backgrounds.

Thank goodness I know enough not to think that the way that I was raised is the only way.

Thank goodness that I can look at people and not develop a preconceived opinion that they are a bastard.

Gwinnett Teacher- unfortunately for a lot of young people this “thug” look is cool. Peer pressure to be “down” is something these students give in to. Some parents are laid back, some uncaring, some think it’s a fad, some think children are expressing themselves and they allow this. I hope your students get the message when you try to tell them how they are perceived. It’s sad that is the case- but welcome to society.

By jim d

July 13, 2006 11:32 AM | Link to this

Really,

It all comes down to that nasty old FREE AND EQUAL education thing. Reason leads me to believe that it is more economically feasible to move a few students from one school to another making them think they have freely chosen to move than it would be to force them to go elsewhere.

Leave us not forget On May 17, 1954, Chief Justice Earl Warren read the following decision of the unanimous Court in Brown vs. Board of Education and that our schools are still struggling to comply. “We come then to the question presented: Does segregation of children in public schools solely on the basis of race, even though the physical facilities and other “tangible” factors may be equal, deprive the children of the minority group of equal educational opportunities? We believe that it does…We conclude that in the field of public education the doctrine of ‘separate but equal’ has no place. Separate educational facilities are inherently unequal. Therefore, we hold that the plaintiffs and others similarly situated for whom the actions have been brought are, by reason of the segregation complained of, deprived of the equal protection of the laws guaranteed by the Fourteenth Amendment.

By Gwinnett Teacher

July 13, 2006 11:32 AM | Link to this

SET - no worries! I would never engage in a personal attack on SNY, no matter how exasperating her comments can be! I am the child of two retired attorneys, and I clearly know and understand the art of public diatribe! I was just trying give her some sage advice to “save” her from attacks from fellow bloggers.

By RA

July 13, 2006 11:35 AM | Link to this

My children went to school in the suburbs of San Francisco for a while. My daughter’s elementary school was truly diverse. Her class had children from several countries, including Japan, Pakistan, Russia, India, Mexico—really it was the UN.

I loved the image of it. I loved seeing her play with the kids from all the different cultures and not caring they were different. I loved having those parents drop their kids off at my house, the mom’s in sari’s, the kids bringing their special meals for snack because they didn’t eat the food my kids eat. It was so good for all of us.

But I hated the way the language problems dragged down learning in the classroom. So many of the international children didn’t speak a word of English, I don’t know how the teacher taught anything. And the poor little boy from Japan was so traumatized by his move that he didn’t speak a word the entire school year, though he could do the work. If I worked in the class, the teacher had me spend all my time with him, just trying to get him talk.

My older son was in Jr High in California. He said by that level, the kids of each race just stuck together. There were enough kids of each race to form their own groups, and they did. So they had the language problems without the lovely image of diversity that parents enjoy.

Now that we in Georgia, my children’s schools are not diverse. There are black kids and white kids, but most of the kids are from the same socio economic class. I like that my kids (and I) have black friends and teachers. But I wonder if its true diversity. The parents are all educated, all have pretty much the same values, drive the same cars, wear similar clothes, and eat the same thing for dinner.

I will say there is a small group of “thug” kids at my kids’ schools and my kids are wary of them. Those kids misbehave quite a lot at school. (Though they are not the only ones.) When we first moved here, my kids started talking about “the bad black kids at school.” I had to remind them that they have lots of wonderful black kids at their school as well.

I talk a lot to them about how hard it is for some kids and how lucky they are to be middle class and come from an educated family. I’m trying to get that message in there, but they see those kids everyday, dragging down their learning environment, and I worry about what they are thinking and not saying because they don’t want the “you are so lucky” lecture.

In short, I think the exposure to the pathological side of poverty has been much more difficult for my kids to handle than the exposure to different nationalities and cultures ever were.

Okay, that’s my two cents on diversity.

By RA

July 13, 2006 11:42 AM | Link to this

I wanted to answer Patti’s last question (after my very long post!). Yes, I chose a less diverse school when moving to GA because of my experience in California.

As I said, I loved the idea of diversity, but I have only once chance to educate my children, and the language barriers were just too great to overcome. My children’s education did suffer because of the poor english skills of their classmates in CA. I did not want to make that mistake again.

I put my children’s education before my idealist goals for all education. Self interest before idealism. Sad, but true.

By Patti Ghezzi

July 13, 2006 11:43 AM | Link to this

Hi all,

Yes, the “economically disadvantaged” category goes by free and reduced-price lunch. Some kids who qualify for free lunch, don’t request it.

Yes, families self-report their ethnic background. Someone asked earlier about Indian students. They are counted under the Asian/Pacific Islander category.

Patti

By Kage

July 13, 2006 11:44 AM | Link to this

I agree that more diverse schools are penalized by NCLB.

Imagine a school that has 240 White kids, with 39 African American, and 39 Hispanic. Every single African American and Hispanic child could fail the CRCT and the school would not be penalized.

Now imagine a school with 230 White kids, 41 African American, and 41 Hispanic. In this school, 27 African Americans and 27 Hispanic children would have to pass the CRCT or else the school would not meet AYP.

I teach at a school that is quite diverse with the exception of Hispanic students. We have diversity in race, socio-economic status, religion, readiness, and home lives. I am continually amazed to see children from such diverse backgrounds work together. I went to Catholic schools all my life. Although we had a mixture of White & African American students, there was little diversity in areas besides race.

At my school now, children of research scientists listen to a child who is homeless describe what it is like to live in a shelter. Children who have never had anyone in their families go to college listen to kids talk about what school their brother or sister chose.

Yes, schools are penalized for diversity. But I think the trade off is worth it.

By Gwinnett Teacher

July 13, 2006 11:47 AM | Link to this

Nja - Oh, trust me, I do understand the whole being “down” thing! I have four boys - 16, 16, 14, and 12. They try to be as “down” as we let them! But, they also know that there’s nobody at my job or at Dad’s job who dresses like this!

By Patti Ghezzi

July 13, 2006 11:54 AM | Link to this

RA, I would say that was a lot more than two cents. Thanks for commenting as you are “close to the ground” on this issue.

Patti

By Velatra

July 13, 2006 11:57 AM | Link to this

• Is the syndrome you’re referring to involving the black boys (and white wanna-bes) who can’t groom themselves or wear a belt to keep their pants above their rear ends? I can take one look at these brats and say they have no father. No man would let his son go about looking like that.*

SET, Sir, you are wrong on this. I’ve seen many boys with fathers with their pants down in my school. What’s even sadder is that some of their fathers wear their pants like that, too. So, you can imagine the tough time I have getting these kids to pull and keep their pants up due to their example. Please lighten up on the generalizations.

SNY, I can understand what you meant. There are some kids that only respond to “hollerin’” and screaming because that’s all they know. And, yes, there are some children who respond quicker to teachers of certain races because, sadly, some of them have been taught to distrust certain other races, or they may have simply not been around enough people of other races. Sometimes, it’s a combination of both. I have seen this over and over in my school which is about 98% black. About 30-40% of the teachers and the principal are white, yet the kids who need the “tough love” are strategically placed in black teachers’ classrooms. I am glad that I grew up in a more diverse environment, so my views are nowhere as narrow. As a matter of fact, during my formative years, most of my teachers were white.

So, SNY, I can definitely understand where you are coming from. Also, I think a lot of the posters who bashed you have yet to experience what I posted above. I’ve learned that people often disparage those things that they’ve not experienced.

By Litmajor

July 13, 2006 12:01 PM | Link to this

Well said RA.

By SNY

July 13, 2006 12:05 PM | Link to this

Gwinnett Teacher,

I don’t need you to save me. If someone doesn’t like what I post, I’m a big girl, I can take it. Keep your pity to yourself.

When I asked you not to sterotype me it was because after you tried to blast me in your 10:22 post, you wrote that you find that style of parenting in single mothers that feel they need to be mom and dad. I was letting you know that I am not a single mom. I have a wonderful husband and father who believes EXACTLY the way I do. Maybe it isn’t for you but that doesn’t mean that it is wrong!

By SNY

July 13, 2006 12:09 PM | Link to this

Velatra,

Thank you for understanding.

I really don’t know what the difference was because my daughter only has white friends in our neighborhood and their parents love her. They tell me all the time how sweet and polite she is. She listens to them without a problem. For some reason, the problem is only with white teachers. Her doctor said not to worry about it. So I don’t.

By catlady

July 13, 2006 12:14 PM | Link to this

From reading the comments we have here, I think it is clear that one of the things we need to teach our children at home is that PEOPLE ARE DIFFERENT. Something that one person responds to may not get the same response from another. The way we are raised (or raise our children) may not be the way others are raised, AND IT ISN’T NECESSARILY “bad” or “wrong.” One thing I have slowly come to realize is that, in some settings, one way of responding is more appropriate or useful, but in another setting that way of responding would be ineffective or unuseful. There are situations where my white, middle class perspective is downright dangerous! We teach our children to adapt to their environment, realizing that sometimes that will be a stretch, and sometimes uncomfortable. And we realize that in the world our children will be a part of, middle class mores and perspectives dominate (at least now.) Like adults, children have to learn to “change gears” on a yearly, daily, hourly, instantly basis to get by in our culture.

By ann

July 13, 2006 12:24 PM | Link to this

jim d: Interesting thought. It is my experience that many academically challenged students do not have parents who are actively involved in their education. Academic apathy is often generational. I believe it is the involved and motivated parents with children in higher academic standing that will seek a different school. What population does that encourage at the non AYP school?

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

July 13, 2006 12:28 PM | Link to this

The only thing ALL children need is someone who cares and understand their specific needs. Not all children are the same, even if they are the same ethnicity.

People, please choose to grow.

Everything that takes place in our schools, takes place in our communities and our country. If we don’t have diverse schools, we usually don’t have a diverse community. This rolls up into our business worlds, government and overall leadership.

Today, everything is about gated communities and segmentation. Everyone thinks of his/herself and has no clear understanding of others.

It takes more than your core training skills (math,reading, science, history) knowledge to teach a child. It’s in your heart. The teachers I learned the most from, were people who showed love when they were teaching. Love for the job, the subject and their students (all of them, not just the best performers).

By DB

July 13, 2006 12:30 PM | Link to this

SNY-I’m having trouble following you, you say “all white classroom” as if you’re trying to show that white classrooms are more lax. I simply think you have some racial issues to address. You seem to make everything black vs. white. Let me tell you that daycare centers and schools are afraid to discipline for fear of lawsuits, and if you have an all-white place, they are even more afraid to discipline a black kid. That may be all you’re witnessing. And even more likely, the fact that the white place was public and your current place is private is probably the biggest difference.

My kids had both experiences, and I would say they were all lax, white or black. And that’s why they are now in private school that is quite diverse in almost equal numbers of all. I wasn’t worried about my kids misbehaving as they get consequences with me, but the environment they were in was totally antiproductive because of the lack of discipline.

By DB

July 13, 2006 12:45 PM | Link to this

SNY: Your explanation of tone is somewhat disconcerting. Your kids should do what they’re told as you say, there’s no doubt about that. But if you always speak to your kids that way, several things will happen. First, they will learn to ignore you and live in their own little isolated world. Second, you will ruin their self-confidence and they will be very likely to become chronically depressed. Third, they will eventually listen to no one and think shouting is normal(and maybe do many things they regret as a result). Shouting or using strong tone should be used only when necessary, not all the time. There’s nothing wrong with getting a point across now and then, but you’re setting up your kids for a life filled with anxiety where they will not be able to confront harsh people but they will victimize weak people. Loud noises such as shouting arouses the limbic system in our brain, which eventually trains it to just “react in fear” instead of thinking rationally. Kids to need a “chewing” once in a while, but that should be left to the important mistakes they make.

This is just my opinion. I just hope you think about it.

By Gwinnett Teacher

July 13, 2006 12:46 PM | Link to this

SNY - I never tried to bash you! You have some serious issues if you think that someone who disagrees with you is trying to bash you!

Secondly, reread my post - it says, ” find that this type of “parenting” is most prevalent with single mothers who mistakenly believe that they have to be the “mother and the father” since there is no father in the household. “

Did you notice the word “most”? Probably not!

By DB

July 13, 2006 12:48 PM | Link to this

I agree with SET on the accommodation issue. School is a place where all students should go to “accommodate” themselves to the school environment, regardless of their background. School should be rigorous, and those that don’t meet expectations should be treated the same regardless of background and fail if needed. School is about learning, and if there’s no struggle, there’s no learning. If schools were this way, it would be amazing to see how kids from all different backgrounds would feel on common ground for once.

By Gwinnett Teacher

July 13, 2006 12:53 PM | Link to this

DB - You are absolutely right about a child who only responds when yelled at. I was trying to state this is my posts too, but, I was accused of trying to bash! Sheesh!

By SNY

July 13, 2006 01:41 PM | Link to this

DB,

I will take your response home to my husband and the two of us will sit down THIS weekend and discuss how we address our children. Maybe you are right. I never thought about the way it made my children feel to always be spoken to in a harsh tone. It never occurred to me that it could affect her brain. I was raised this way and so was my husband. Maybe that isn’t the best answer for it anymore. I will sit down with my 8 year old and ask her how she feels. You never know, DB, you may have just saved my relationship with my daughter, on accident.

Thank you.

P.S. But if it doesn’t work, we are going back to the way where I get results.

By jim d

July 13, 2006 01:49 PM | Link to this

SNY,

Take it from one who has already been down both roads as a parent. Soft spoken gets better results.

By Gwinnett Teacher

July 13, 2006 01:54 PM | Link to this

jim d - I have NEVER agreed with anything you’ve said until just now! I’m going right out and play the lottery!

By jim d

July 13, 2006 01:58 PM | Link to this

Well I could be wrong :-)

By SNY

July 13, 2006 02:02 PM | Link to this

jim d,

You just couldn’t help yourself, could you?

By jim d

July 13, 2006 02:07 PM | Link to this

SNY,

Nope, I find agreeing, disagreeable. Besides, I was trying to save the teach a buck.

By SET

July 13, 2006 02:09 PM | Link to this

Amazed:

I hear your point but I don’t think school is a place where kids are to look for love. You get love from your family or your lovers. It’s a bad idea to mix love and work. School is a job for kids. They are there to learn to the extent they can and to be exposed to the subjects taught.

School is not a place to find love. My best teachers may have been inspiring but they never gave me love. We (teacher-student) may have had some fondness for each other (on occasion - purely optional) but that’s where the boundries were set. My success or failure as a student never was tied to whether I or the teacher liked each other. If people aren’t clear on this you can have all kinds of incorrect behaviors and expectations arise. A good teacher will flunk some they “like” and give an A to a student they find disagreeable. And no one should be surprised when it happens.

Any confusion on these points sets up the kids to be vulnerable and confused. A teacher is not a parent and the duties, obligations and roles must be made clear to the kid.

And the kids don’t need to be looking for love with each other when they have work to do either.

By SET

July 13, 2006 02:39 PM | Link to this

SNY:

On the voice raising thing - I’ve got experience with both styles going all the way back to the difference between the Italian Nuns and the Irish Nuns. And the different sides of my own family. Some talk, some just act.

I’ve found that raising voices takes to much out of me and doesn’t train the kids to watch my subtle verbal and body language cues.

So I train people to do what I want before I get annoyed and destroy everything of theirs they love. It also encourages people to move out without staying too long.

Tyler Perry has used this philosophy also in developing his character “Madea”. It’s Old School I suppose. But it does work.

It’s nicer to have your child trained so they open their eyes, watch what’s going on, and have kept on top of things so no one (parent, employer, police officer, armed robber) needs to get their attention.

By DB

July 13, 2006 02:51 PM | Link to this

SNY: I’m glad you didn’t get offended. I’ve just seen it many times, even in my own family. By all means, be hard on your kids with expectations, but being harsh in tone all the time just puts them on edge and makes them reactionary, and in the long run they get emotionally worn out and depressed, not to mention irritable, paranoid, and timid. A lot can be done without shouting all the time. If you only shout once in a while, they know why. If you shout all the time, they eventually think they’re just somehow less worthy of a human because they don’t know why they’re always being shouted at, and they just blame themselves. It makes it tough to deal with life when you listen to no one because they don’t shout, and then you ignore them if they do because they’ve learned to tone it out, too. I would almost go as far as linking ADD and ADHD personalily(not a real problem in my book) with parents that do nothing but shout at their kids and truly ignore them, and do little as far as other, real consequences like taking away this or that or saying “NO” once in a while. I’m not referring to you, but most parents that are always shouting are usually shouting because they’re depressed themselves or they just know no other way of controlling their kids. And where do you think they learn that?

By SNY

July 13, 2006 02:52 PM | Link to this

OK,

First of all, you guys are saying that I raise my voice. I don’t. I said that I speak harshly. There is a difference. I’m not yelling at the child. Please, please, please understand that one point.

By DB

July 13, 2006 02:58 PM | Link to this

SNY: Then again, I have no idea how things really go at your home. If you talk to your kid or kids calmly and show them love just as much as you shout at them when you want something done(hopefully not always shouting when you want something done), I would guess there’s no problem. I’m just going from what I assume from your posts.

By DB

July 13, 2006 03:00 PM | Link to this

Adding to SET’s comment and getting back to the discussion, kids need diversity in interaction with varying types of both non-verbal communication and varying types of verbal communication. Being able to communicate is very important in life. I can’t agree more with SET.

By DB

July 13, 2006 03:05 PM | Link to this

In that case, what do you mean by speaking harshly?

By DB

July 13, 2006 03:21 PM | Link to this

SNY: Here are your quotes:

**The problem arose when I would go to scold her at daycare and at school and the teacher would say “oh, that’s alright, she is so cute and sweet. As long as she isn’t hurting anyone and her work is done it’s okay”.

I say “pick up your toys and put them in the toy box or they are going in the trash” and most of the time it comes out in an authoritative voice.**

What do you mean by “scold” and “authoritative voice”? Do you not raise your voice? I guess I misinterpreted “scold” and “authoritative” in that case, and I apologize. I pictured you as a military drill sargeant shouting and shouting. I have said the same exact things to my kids, especially about the toys. How similar kids are. Once I told them about the toys, and then I took a few of their favorite toys and put them in the donation box at Lowe’s while they were watching from the car. I don’t even have to tell them to keep it clean now.

By SET

July 13, 2006 03:45 PM | Link to this

Velatra:

When I made the comment about the badly groomed and dressed boys not having a father I though about the point that you eventually posted (that their “fathers” may have their pants around their knees also) - and I just didn’t consider a sperm donor to be a Man or a Father.

By SNY

July 13, 2006 03:57 PM | Link to this

DB,

I am ex-military but I’m not running around my house screaming and yelling at the top of my lungs. I use a voice that is the same decible wise as my normal voice, I just put a little “umph” into it. A little sternness to let them know that I am mommy. I rarely have to shout at them at all. Sorry if I gave you the impression that I am running around with my M-16 and combat boots on. :)

By SET

July 13, 2006 04:50 PM | Link to this

Leave SNY alone!

I spent time with some Jewish Mothers when I was growing up. Compared to them the Irish and Italian Nuns were amatuers. Imagine growing up with Judge Judy and trying to get away with anything. SNY is just folks to me.

By DB

July 13, 2006 06:06 PM | Link to this

SNY: Yep, I just misunderstood you the whole time. You’re not much different than I when it comes to parenting.

By MMM

July 13, 2006 06:53 PM | Link to this

Great diversity exists at the Atlanta Airport, but I think that we would all agree that no one gains from it unless we manage to create community across these ethnic, SES, language, ability and religious differences.

Many of our schools have eliminated as many of the things that create interaction between the kids (like recess) and adults (look at the privacy policies that might creat that community. I think that this lack of mutual support is one of the root causes of the alienation that causes many of our kids to spin out of control.

My kid’s charter school is intentionally diverse and intentional about trying to creat community. I went to a Burmese water festival thrown by one of our teach aids/parents and I think the adults had as much fun as the kids.

By Really?

July 14, 2006 09:11 AM | Link to this

As far as “hoops to jump through,” schools don’t compile the data: they just have all the kids take the tests. The state breaks up the data and reports it to the schools. So, if all kids are getting a good education, it shouldn’t in theory be harder for diverse schools to meet AYP.

It may be true that schools with small subgroups don’t get caught by the state quite as much, but unless you can show that the performance of subgroup kids at these schools would result in AYP penalties if the groups were bigger (which could be verified or refuted and make a GREAT AJC education story, Patti), it seems unfair to make that argument.

Additionally, remember that while the NCLB AYP system is imperfect, it’s much better than the limited oversight that schools got before.

When only overall scores and overall pass rates were considered, the less diverse schools REALLY looked better than the diverse ones, because so often in actual pratice, majority white schools are rich suburban schools with kids whose parents buy in to achievement. So, the “diverse” schools really looked bad, because when the rankings and report cards came out, nobody compared subgroup performance. But now, we can know much more about how schools actual serve the groups who go there, and we’re finding out that low SES kids, SWDs, “diverse” kids don’t seem to do that much better at less diverse schools. Their data just gets hidden.

By Lee

July 14, 2006 03:21 PM | Link to this

Diversity my big ‘ol white hairy butt. When I hear it, I have to resist the urge to stick my finger down my throat and gag myself.

Diversity is one of the main reasons schools are such a cesspool.

Your honors student is probably sitting in class next to some barely functional illerate with an IQ of room temperature, a few illegal aliens who just climbed under the fence and can’t speak a word of English, a special ed student who has no clue, and a few behavior problems thrown in for good measure. The poor teacher has to try to come up with four different lessons to reach all these sub-groups within the same class.

I don’t want diversity. I want my child siting in a classroom with the best teachers, with a group of bright, highly motivated students whose parents actually give a rip about their kid’s education. Oh wait, my daughter does have that at her private school.

Besides, I figure she’ll get a belly-full of diversity when she enters the job force and gets passed over for promotion a couple dozen times because the company is trying to increase their “diversity.”

By Laf

July 14, 2006 05:50 PM | Link to this

to its diverse group of employees.

By SET

July 14, 2006 06:09 PM | Link to this

Laf:

You are way wrong on this. This country is well on the way to a 3rd world situation where the upper class will rule the underclass. Lee’s daughter will not even speak to her social inferiors in such a world. There won’t be a middle class left. She won’t have to get along with the cognitively impaired. She will live with the best things in life and they will barely survive.

But maybe it won’t happen here, right? It’s happening day by day.

By SET

July 14, 2006 06:25 PM | Link to this

One of the reasons I feel so strongly we need to toughen up the lower performing minorities in the public school is that when they “graduate” they will be sent out into the world to compete with people like Lee’s daughter and her society. The way things are now the public school minority kids are being set up for slaughter against people who will give them no breaks and no quarter in the game of life.

You should listen carefully to Lee. This is the way the “haves” approach the world. I work with them. They don’t have accidents and they don’t make a lot of false steps. If you can’t keep up with them economically, professionally and socially you take what’s left (if anything) at the supper plate. They don’t owe you a cup of water if you’re dying of thirst.

And you can forget about counting on the Democratic Party to stay in power and protect people with racial set asides, welfare state economics, etc. Regardless of who is in power, the government is superinflating the currency and at the same time importing millions of unskilled laborers. You can see what that means for those who work in unskilled labor. Economic collapse and a steep decline in the standard of living.

Say Bye-Bye Diversity! Say Hello Freedom of Association.

We would do well to train our public school kids to take care of themselves. It doesn’t look like that is going to happen in the time we have left to make a difference.

By SET

July 14, 2006 06:48 PM | Link to this

I’ll end this thread now - but while we talk of “Diversity” do you realize the screens that are going up all around us in employment? Even Civil Service jobs are in some municipalities going to a “No Smokers” ban where applicant’s are drug tested for nicotine. I know at least 1 police department that requires all applicants to have a 4 (not a 2) year degree. Businesses credit check even intern applicants and trash anyone with a problem. then they check criminal and civil records and block the drama cases. Yes, that means the victims who were beaten by their parolee boyfriends. Business doesn’t want such women around.

Many people raised in the current public school system are being systematically blocked from employment they might have previously been able to reach because they’re not housebroken and industry won’t tolerate it. Computerization and data mining are getting so cheap it’s easy to document their shortcomings and keep them out. Or just require a 4 year degree or a driver’s license and keep them out. It’s getting hard to keep those driver’s licenses in CA if you are stupid. Minority males we see often don’t have one.

If we don’t teach these public school kids how to behave, be careful, speak english, and to expect nothing to be given to them they won’t even be able to qualify for a job as a city janitor.

In Ed blogs I still see that public schools just won’t bear down on the students or their “parents”. The only people the public schools seem to want miserable are the teachers who have to live with the bad attitudes.

Brave New World.

By Laf

July 17, 2006 08:16 AM | Link to this

Set Lee’s daughter want survive without the third world under-class. The under-class provides Lee with 80% of what she needs. They will be provide her with a clean house, nice looking yard, and that Wendy’s hamburger that she eats everyday. They will keep her office clean and help build that nice house she will live in. This is why it doesn’t bother the conservatives to keep the money in the hands of the rich. The rich must have a poor underclass to survive. Why do you think GB wants to allow all these illegal immigrants to stay in this country??? He knows that somebody gotta pick those tomatoes in Florida.!!!!!!! These people don’t need an education! Drop them from that NCLB list.

By SET

July 17, 2006 10:33 AM | Link to this

Conservatives don’t keep the money in the hands of the rich. The way economics works is that the smart get richer and the stupid get children.

After a lifetime, I agree that Fortune favors the bold, the prepared and the clever. Yes the rich take control of the legislature to rig the tax laws to their advantage. No matter which candidate wins, they win. The only way for the people to win is to shrink the span of government and reduce the government sapping the economy.

That won’t happen in a democracy since the proletariat can vote itself “benefits” and pay for it with printing press money. It always ends in economic collapse. Even in an economic collapse, the rich get richer since they have superior forecasting and planning abilities.

And as unfortunate as it is, education won’t make dull people smart which is why we should be changing the structure of the public schools to terminate the academic school careers of half of the students by puberty. They should be in vocational programs not academic programs.

By Laf

July 17, 2006 11:04 AM | Link to this

Plumbers, brick masons, and electricians need to have a lot of English, writing, reading, and math skills today. This needs to be complemented with an excellent vocational and technical school education. I want this underclass to be highly productive citizens. You might as well pay their way now by provide excellent educational programs for them. If we don’t do this we will just end up spending more money for prisons, welfare, and low productivity in the future.

By Velatra

July 17, 2006 11:16 AM | Link to this

I don’t necessarily agree with Lee’s sublimal message in his/her post about the different types of students in one classroom, but I do wish we could be back to the way I was educated from the late 70’s to the early 90’s. That way was ability grouping. It didn’t matter what race or socio-economic status the students were. It just boiled down to intellectual ability. Back then, there were fewer dropouts, and if I remember correctly, most of the dropouts had parents who were dropouts themselves or who didn’t give a flip about education period.

I am probably one of the very small number of teachers who wish that we could go back to ability grouping. I know it would make our jobs easier, and I feel that the students would benefit more if they received education that was specifically designed for their ability. I think that the test scores would go, and the “diversity thing” wouldn’t even matter. JMHO.

By Counting the Days

July 17, 2006 11:58 AM | Link to this

You aren’t in the minority of educators who wish we were back in the day of ability grouping.

When I first started teaching 19 years ago, the state of education was in the tail end of ability grouping. Those were the days when teachers were still allowed to teach, as they still had a modicum of control over their classrooms. It was wonderful.

A couple of years ago, I had a truly bizarre class that comprised of 12 gifted students, 7 special ed, 2 regular, ordinary students, and a special ed co-teacher who felt that the class needed to be dumbed down so that her students could have their needs ‘accomodated’ and to hell with everyone else. Trust me…NO ONE had their needs met in that class. Administration didn’t want to interfere and the special needs/gifted coordinator told me to “suck it up” and “deal with it,” meaning to come up with numerous plans for one class. By the end of the year, I had 6 different preparations and was spending so much time making sure that the paperwork requirement was met for FTE that I didn’t have much time or energy left to actually implement those plans.

By Velatra

July 17, 2006 01:02 PM | Link to this

Counting,

If your class isn’t viewed as diverse, I don’t know what one is. :-) I can truly feel your pain.

I’m beginning to think that meaning of diversity in education is subjective. One may think it applies to race, while another may think it applies to ability.

By Velatra

July 17, 2006 01:03 PM | Link to this

Counting,

If your class isn’t viewed as diverse, I don’t know what one is. :-) I can truly feel your pain.

I’m beginning to think that meaning of diversity in education is subjective. One may think it applies to race, while another may think it applies to ability.

By Velatra

July 17, 2006 01:08 PM | Link to this

Oopsie! Double post.

By Lisa B.

July 17, 2006 01:21 PM | Link to this

I think ability grouping is best for high achieving students. However, low achievers, and ESOL students really seem to benefit from mixed ability classes. Those students need exposure and work time with successful kids. Mid-range students seem to perform better when grouped with high achievers, and perform less well when grouped with struggling kids, if the struggling kids are off task.

My 12-year-old son was grouped by ability in grades 2-5, and was assigned to the high group. He was challenged academically, and performed well. In the 6th grade, my son was in a mixed class that included everything from Special Ed. to gifted. He had no school assigned homework the entire year, and breezed through academically. While he did learn, my husband and I know he wasn’t challenged. We made up for some of this at home, but I was very concerned, that for the first time I saw evidence in this excellent school system of dumbing down the classes. I do NOT want my son in classes next year that include the special ed kids. He worked well with those children, but school was just too easy. While I welcome diversity in my own classroom, I obviously don’t care for academic diversity in my son’s classes. I guess some teachers are better than others at meeting the needs of all students.

By Lisa B.

July 17, 2006 01:24 PM | Link to this

Counting, When I said I welcome diversity in my own classroom, I meant children from different racial and socio-economic backgrounds. I would pull my hair out with a class as diverse academically as the one you describe!

By Laf

July 17, 2006 06:31 PM | Link to this

If the teacher can’t effectively teach groups of students with different ability levels they have no business teaching. The term inclusion is often use in special education circles. This is very commom knowledge in American Schools of Education. Heterogenous grouping by ability does require more work for the teacher so this is why many teachers are against it. The easy way out is not necessarily the best way for the total school population. You do your grouping and differentiated assignments in the classroom. Nodody said teaching was simple and easy. Also the teacher must have adequate support.

By luvs2teach

July 17, 2006 07:15 PM | Link to this

Actually, Laf, much of what you wrote is now considered a myth, particularly for gifted students.

One researcher found “Mixed-ability cooperative learning should be used sparingly for students who are gifted and talented, perhaps only for social skills development programs. Until evidence is accumulated that this form of cooperative learning provides academic outcomes similar or superior to the various forms of ability grouping, it is important to continue with the grouping practices that are supported by research (Rogers, 1991).”

Another, “When high, medium, and low achieving students are grouped together, high achieving students explain material to low achieving students, and medium achieving students have fewer opportunities for participation. Academically talented students report frustration when working in mixed ability groups with team members who are unwilling to contribute to the group goal. Placing students who are similar in achievement together continues to allow for heterogeneity in terms of ethnicity and gender in the groups. Cooperative learning might be used with groups of high achieving students (Robinson, 1991).”

And finally, “On the contrary, Kulik (1992) found youngsters of all achievement groups benefited from ability grouping programs when the curriculum was appropriately adjusted to the aptitude levels of the groups and cautioned that if schools eliminated grouping programs with differentiated curricula, the damage to student achievement would be great. He indicated that higher and lower aptitude students would suffer academically from elimination of grouping. Conversely, he cautioned that schools should resist the call for the elimination of the use of ability grouping.”

It was strange - this was exactly the subject covered in my class today (for the gifted endorsement). I, too, was surprised at the “myths” debunked, particularly with the push for differentiation so prevalent today. I think you’ll find that most teachers don’t find differentiation “harder”, it’s just “different” (no pun intended) and many of us were differentiating naturally, before it became a buzzword.

Sources, in case you’re interested:

Kulik, J. A. (1992). (RBDM 9204). Storrs, CT: University of Connecticut, The National Research Center on the Gifted and Talented.

Robinson, A. (1991). Cooperative learning and the gifted and talented student (RBDM 9106). Storrs, CT: University of Connecticut, The National Research Center on the Gifted and Talented.

Rogers, K. B. (1991). The relationship of grouping practices to the education of the gifted and talented learner (RBDM 9102). Storrs, CT: University of Connecticut, The National Research Center on the Gifted and Talented.