Get Schooled

By SET

July 11, 2006 02:37 PM | Link to this

Free tutoring is not going to change a dull student into an abstract thinker. NCLB is built on false premises which the writers knew to be false. What is their real plan? I suppose we’ll find out soon enough.

By Richard

July 11, 2006 02:55 PM | Link to this

What happenned at Tucker Middle School, Tucker High School, and Shamrock Middle School?

By Janine

July 11, 2006 03:04 PM | Link to this

As an educator, I am appalled… not only about AYP, but also about the entire NCLB fiasco! The idea that a school is labeled a “failing ” school because a group of students who do not speak English and/or a group of special education students cannot pass an arbitrary test … with pass scores set at the whim of a few educrats is outrageous. NCLB has not only moved resources and primary focus to the students of lower ability, and , as you say Patti, left the brighter students to twist in the wind, but also been the driving force in “cookie cutter” academics …where teacher’s must read from a script and/or follow a prescription designed for the lower end of the academic spectrum!

By Well

July 11, 2006 03:24 PM | Link to this

Why can’t the gov’t, schools, and parents please accept that some children are never going to be bright? But there are still jobs and opportunities for these people. We need trained workers.

My husband and I have noticed that some folks we know should never have tried college. They got HOPE (which doesn’t cover living expenses), took out federal loans to cover living, and then didn’t complete their degree. Now they are stuck with student loan debt but no degree or job to show for it.

They would’ve been better off going to work, then trying school a little later. Or maybe never.

Its sad. Some children are just not smart.

By Janine

July 11, 2006 03:31 PM | Link to this

I agree with WELL. We’re in the midst of the EVERYBODY’S GOT TO GO TO COLLEGE frenzy. We are sending the wrong message to our young people…when the fact is you do not have to go to college to be a contributing member of society .I believe it’s 3/4 of the jobs in the USA do not require a college degree, and yet we ignore that fact and do not encourage training, apprenticeships, etc. which would better serve many students.

By Patti Ghezzi

July 11, 2006 03:52 PM | Link to this

These DeKalb schools were inundated with students transferring under NCLB. The high numbers were unexpected, creating a shortage of lockers and textbooks and generally overcrowded conditions. Parents were not happy, though most could understand the desire of families from other neighborhoods to seek a better education for their child through the transfer option.

This year Tucker High School did not make AYP. Tucker and Shamrock middle schools did make AYP.

By Lisa B.

July 11, 2006 03:56 PM | Link to this

The middle school in my school sytem FINALLY made AYP after years on the “needs improvement” list, but our high school, which normally makes AYP failed to make the mark this year because too few of one population segment failed to graduate!

Janine, I couldn’t agree with you more that schools no longer meet the needs of high achieving students. As teachers, we are now forced to spend most of our time with those borderline and failing children. If we continue to ignore our brightest students, where will our doctors, scientists and engineers come from?

By edwatcher

July 11, 2006 04:08 PM | Link to this

As far as high numbers of transfer students being unexpected…I have to blame the districts for this. When a school does not make AYP for two consecutive years, they must offer transfers. In order to get out of this predicament, the school must then MAKE AYP for two consecutive years. Bottom line is, districts have known since before June 28th (the day they had to sign off on CRCT data and get it back to the state) which schools had to offer transfers. In many cases they’ve known for a year, because like I said, the schools have to be off the list for two consecutive years. Do the districts plan ahead, start letting parents know that their kids are eligible for transfer? In the case of Cobb, I can tell you NO they do not. They wait until the absolute last minute, make kids start at one school and then let them transfer two weeks or a month into the school year to the higher performing school. And then they wonder why things are chaotic, and there’s a shortage of lockers, books, etc. If the district knows a year ahead that a particular school still needs 2 years of making AYP, they should PLAN AHEAD! What a concept!

By I think with a silky, southern drawl

July 11, 2006 04:09 PM | Link to this

How about forget the AYP, and increase teacher P-A-Y. These dedicated citizens, for the most part, work very hard to help our young people become full-functioning, contributing participants in our society.

All the things people do to undermine public education.

Absolutely sinister.

Deplorable.

I’m sorry, but I needed to vent.

That’s my two cents.

God bless the republic.

By SET

July 11, 2006 04:16 PM | Link to this

Lisa,

Our Doctors, Engineers and Scientists Nurses, etc. are coming from India and Asia. And Eastern Europe. Many of them are already here as “Exchange” students. Funny, I haven’t met any American Families sending their kids to those countries to study.

As we dumb down our education system we will import foreigners to take the higher paying jobs. The other nations laugh at our politically correct education system and our protected minorities. Sacred Cows in the road??

Brave New World.

By Recently Retired

July 11, 2006 04:27 PM | Link to this

When looking at the schools in my district I noticed that the elementary schools in the cluster made AYP. Then no middle schools in the cluster made AYP.(almost none of them in the entire county!) Then the high school that those middle schools fed into did make AYP. Well, gee, where could the breakdown be happening?

By Janine

July 11, 2006 04:33 PM | Link to this

AMEN to edwatcher ! The Dekalb system is a chaotic mess because of poor planning…it is a chronic condition in Dekalb. ANd now the public finds out [most teachers in the system already knew] that these dimwits have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars of taxpayer money to REHIRE AS “CONSULTANTS” those in the county office that they just gave huge amounts of incentive money to retire …[as one genleman once said at a school board meeting,” you’re re-hiring the very ones who got us into this mess !!”[WSBTV investigative report]Totally illegal in the state of GA!!!!!And guess who is going to have to pay it back!!!the taxpayers, not the cheats….

By Stef

July 11, 2006 04:38 PM | Link to this

Dear SET, If you go the the Georgia Institute of Technology which produces the largest amount of engineers in the area, the largest percentage of the students are from the USA. Yes there are students from India, Asia and Eastern Europe, but the vast majority of the student body is American.

What you state is false.

By Cammi

July 11, 2006 04:38 PM | Link to this

I am happy to see that my daughter’s school, McLendon Elementary, once again made AYP. Everyone keeps talking about the schools and I don’t think that is the biggest problem. I think the biggest problem is parents who don’t take a serious interest in their children’s education. If I totally depended upon someone else to educate my child, she might be flunking instead of an honor student. I go over her homework with her EVERY night. I purchase workbooks for her to do at home and make sure that she does plenty of reading. She is only entering 3rd grade this year, but I believe a combination of school and education being stressed at home has her off to a great start! PARENTS TAKE SOME RESPONSIBILITY. If your child is failing you are a great part of the problem.

By Ernest

July 11, 2006 04:52 PM | Link to this

First, I’m proud to say the 3 schools my children attended last year all made AYP. Would I be concerned if their school did not make AYP? Yes and no. I believe that as parents, we are doing a pretty good job staying involved in our children’s education. A lot of this goes back to parental involvement. I can only hope that other children are benefiting from our and other involved parents involvement with the schools and hopefully realizing greater success because of it.

The best thing about these reports is the attention it gets and conversations that are generated.

By Jolie

July 11, 2006 04:52 PM | Link to this

The school didn’t fail! In 99% of cases the child failed due to language barriers, moving 5 or 6 times during each school year, or not caring. The parent failed the child by not making education a priority over computer games, TV and ipods. NCLB is a joke to the schools that pass, there students have always made the grades and test scores and the parents are at their side.

By MMM

July 11, 2006 04:55 PM | Link to this

Lakeside high school failed! I guess they were bright enough to figure out how to not take any more transfers.

I was at the Dekalb board meeting last night. The guns have come out from under the table and the shooting is now taking place in full view of the TV cameras. I am just praying that this is what it takes to get some new folks elected that care about instruction, professionalizm and good governance. I’m not sure I should take my children along with me when I speak at the next meeting. “Mommy, what is nepotism and double-dipping?” How embarassing!

By John

July 11, 2006 05:01 PM | Link to this

AYP is absolutely meaningless. If a school as a whole does well, that is what matters. Who cares if tiny subgroups choose to not do what it takes to perform well?

By OldSchool

July 11, 2006 05:02 PM | Link to this

And here I am singing my same old song: 80% of the jobs required technical training while 20% require college. I am getting pretty tired of the insinuation that because “not all children are smart…” they just need to learn a trade. Well folks, it takes some kind of smarts to be successful in Georgia technical colleges. Granted, some kids will never be smart but I’m willing to bet you won’t find them in technical courses OR colleges/universities. Not all “smart” kids will complete a college degree either.

What I think we need is more money to bring our existing Trade & Industrial classes/shops up to date and to put them back in schools that closed them down. Taught by people who were highly skilled and recruited out of industry, these classes do exactly what pure academics seldom do: integrate abstract concepts with real world applications. They teach skills that can land the graduate a good job. They teach work ethics and communication.

And many of the shop classes that still exist have become dumping grounds for all those “not smart” kids to the detriment of everyone.

I get rather defensive when folks hint at our CTAE (formerly vocational) students not being smart enough for anything but learning a trade. We have some highly skilled, talented, SMART students. Just visit the Georgia SkillsUSA State Competitions in the spring in Atlanta and witness the rule rather than the exception. Many of those students will not only complete technical college but will later complete regular degrees WHILE HOLDING DOWN FULL TIME JOBS IN THEIR CHOSEN FIELD. There is nothing like practical applications to make understanding the textbooks easier.

Having said that (and likely too much) I do feel that something must be done to improve education but why must the indicator (for high school) be based on a college-prep test? And why the shotgun approach to change? One size does not fit all in learning styles or teaching styles yet that is the method forced upon us. Our school’s test scores were higher in the days when our vocational programs were being financially supported and students encouraged to broaden their vision of the future. Drafting and Geometry, Electronics and Physics, Food Services and Chemistry, Medical Careers and Biology…these are a few natural partners. Why not build on that?

By decaturparent

July 11, 2006 05:10 PM | Link to this

I thank my lucky stars every day that we are in our own school system with only one middle and one high school so we do not have to face the transfer chaos that Tucker and Shamrock faced. I am absolutely amazed that Shamrock made AYP after what it went through. Congratulations!!!!! It must be a kick butt school!

When will everyone realize that NCLB is designed to destroy public schools (I am sure that Mr. Liberty is thrilled). First the low performing schools fall… then it is only a matter of time before all schools fail because of taking transfers of gobs and gobs of low performing students and because by 2014 - all measured groups must have 100% meets/exceeds rates.

What will happen when the Walton Highs, Chamblee Middles and Vanderlyn Elementaries of the world don’t make AYP (and they won’t by 2014). Where will those kids transfer? - to private school? - you guessed it! Vouchers here we come. Bush has tried to get vouchers into NCLB for years, but Congress kept dropping it from the bill.

No neighborhood schools, no kids learning and growing with their buddies up the street, no critical thinking, no creativity, no recess, no summer vacation, no arts. Just a bunch of fat kids who play video games alone at home and practice bubbling in sheets with factoid questions all day at school but can’t answer a question requiring anything but the most linear thinking. … and we will just go ahead and hand over our economy to the Indians and Chinese.

Brave New World Indeed.

If you don’t like NCLB, do your darn research and do something about it - quit complaining on these boards and write your politicians. There is a lot of big business power behind NCLB (all the testing and tutoring companies) but they do not have nearly as much money/power as the businesses that used illegal labor - so we still have a chance to turn this ship around - at least at this point.

I have a bumper sticker on my car that reads, “No Child Left Behind… from the folks who brought you the Iraq War.”

…. and I’m a Republican (at least I used to be).

Ugh! This NCLB stuff gets me so burned up I could spit.

By Paula

July 11, 2006 05:17 PM | Link to this

Can we all just get beyond this AYP and NCLB crap? I mean it is an absolute joke. How can a school in which all other population classes overwhelmingly pass and exceed the critiera categories, but one population class which cannot speak and/or read English and thus fail the AYP critiera cause an entire school to “fail”?

As a parent, I find very little that is useful about NCLB and AYP.

By DB

July 11, 2006 05:26 PM | Link to this

It’s just another day in education blaming everything on schools and putting little blame to terrible parents and un-disciplined kids. I feel sorry for most kids today as their parents have no idea how to parent. I don’t want to hear excuses about poor this poor that. All kids get free schooling, and if there’s one thing a “poor” parent should do, it’s instill into their kid that an education is the only way out. Instead they instill in them that they should sit on their butts and expect a free ride for everything and to complain if they don’t get it.

By HB

July 11, 2006 05:28 PM | Link to this

Stef, I don’t know about other fields, but a doctor friend has told me that we need a lot of doctors to come in from other countries because we don’t train enough here. She said that back in the 80s, a lot of funding was given to teaching hospitals in order to hire more interns/residents which would in turn would help prevent a doctor shortage. Problem is, all the money went to hospitals, and no extra went to medical schools so that they could accept extra students. So while almost all medical students are from the U.S. (and many potential U.S. med students are rejected by med schools each year due to the limited number of slots), a significant number of residents are brought in from other countries. I wonder if there could be similar situations in other fields as well.

I know that seemed a bit off-topic, but I think the med school problem does relate to AYP/NCLB in that they all seem to me to be attempts by government to implement a quick fix that’s not well thought out. We are failing to prepare students for high-level jobs, especially in science/technology fields, and using a standardized test to determine which schools are passing and which are failing will not solve the problem. Can tests help to identify problem areas? Yes. Do they present solutions to those problems? No. Unfortunately, long-term solutions, educational theories, and curriculum overhauls rarely play well on the campaign trail. Test scores, on the other hand, do. Bureaucrats can point to a simple number and say “this school is good, look what a great job I’m doing” or “this school is bad, and because I care about you, I’m going to fix it where all your kids can transfer to the school down the road”. After a few more years worth of data, it will be interesting to see if students test scores actually improve statewide, or if the failing scores just shift from one school to the next.

Testing students and identifying weaknesses is step 1 (also the easiest step) — more important are the next 8 steps that will lead to real improvements im education.

By DB

July 11, 2006 05:28 PM | Link to this

And for the English thing. I know people who could barely speak English but make a 4.0 in college or high school. And you bet they could speak English after about 6 months of schooling when they tried their hardest. It’s all about motivation.

By DB

July 11, 2006 05:31 PM | Link to this

And the truth is, you don’t have to be all that smart to become a professional in many fields, especially with the lowered expectations these days. Let’s get honest with ourselves. Does anyone know anyone who isn’t that smart but worked his or her back end off in order to become something?

Almost all kids can handle the expectations of these extremely easy tests. Those that can’t are very few.

By dm

July 11, 2006 05:39 PM | Link to this

Should I be worried that the schools in my area - Henderson Middle and Lakeside High - didn’t make this? These are supposed to be great schools academically and I’m surprised they couldn’t meet what seem to be pretty basic standards. Lakeside is even nationally recognized.

By DB

July 11, 2006 05:42 PM | Link to this

Oldschool has it right. And I want to emphasize the work ethic part. I would settle for a society where most people actually do their job and do it with a smile, and I would love it if those that WON’T do their job would get fired. Everything is backwards these days. Schools these days are not able to truly reward those that work hard and spend most their resources on those that could care less. It’s the era of excuses.

By DB

July 11, 2006 05:47 PM | Link to this

dm: I wouldn’t base anything on these standards. Visit the schools and see if you like them. Their numbers could be low simply because they were the only honest schools around. These data are almost completely unreliable. If you raise the right kids, they will excel in most any school, as long as it’s safe and structured. And you can check on that yourself.

By SET

July 11, 2006 05:57 PM | Link to this

Stef:

? Of Course the “vast majority” of students are American. For the time being. But the trends are clear to me. Perhaps our West Coast experiences are different from yours.

Just walk into Kaiser (Or the County Hospital) and ask for a Doctor or Nurse. Or apply to the UC Berkeley School of Engineering.

By dm

July 11, 2006 05:58 PM | Link to this

Thanks DB, I’ve emailed both schools directly to find out why they didn’t pass. I have heard good things from parents who have kids there. Just want to be sure our ‘good’ school district stays that way, I’m a big proponent of public schools!

By Lisa B.

July 11, 2006 06:09 PM | Link to this

SET, I think many trends that begin in California spread to most other state eventually. We already have quite a few foreign doctors in Georgia, and I expect we will see many more foreign doctors, scientists, engineers, etc., in the future, if we don’t increase educational standards and find answers to these discipline problems.

I wish President Bush read this blog.

By decaturparent

July 11, 2006 06:20 PM | Link to this

dm - Lakeside is a great, great school. It won the Bronze Award last year for most children meeting and exceeding standards and has an average SAT of around 1100 give or take.

I know lots of super smart kids from church who go there. It has super parental support. It’s just a great school overall.

dm… This is what NCLB does. It kills the schools with the poorest, least prepared kids first. Then it transfers hoards of them to high performing schools until those schools fail to make AYP because their test scores drop. If that doesn’t work the pass rate that NCLB requires to meet AYP continues to climb until some subgroup (usually special ed or ESOL) does not have a high enough pass rate, and the whole school fails. Most likely Lakeside had some trouble with a difficult subroup. Decatur High has that problem last year but managed to get lucky this year.

Then the whole school fails and is subject to transfers, paying for tutoring services, restructuring, takeover by the state etc.

It doesn’t matter where your kids go to school. If it’s public school - it’s only a matter of time before the hammer falls on you too. No school can make a 100% pass rate for all subgroups every year. They are children… and children aren’t perfect.

My sister-in-law is a teacher in Florida, and she has had students who just plain refuse to take the test. They just fill in the bubbles without reading the test and turn it in. One said that he wanted to get back at his school for suspending him so he was purposely failing the test.

Nice…

By momof four

July 11, 2006 06:22 PM | Link to this

DM…I live in the same area and I was very concern when I found out that Henderson Middle didn’t pass. My son will be attending there soon. However, after talking to a neighbor she said that the ESOL students are the ones that didn’t pass therefore the whole school has to suffer. Both Lakeside and Henderson Middle are excellent school and I wouldn’t worry…maybe if Bush would stop letting illegals in the country we wouldn’t have this problem!!!

By Flora

July 11, 2006 06:23 PM | Link to this

HOORAY! Our school did NOT make AYP, which means that we cannot be overrun with transfers for next year! I’m thrilled!

By decaturparent

July 11, 2006 06:27 PM | Link to this

The only way to get more engineers, scientists and doctors is to get back to paying some small bit of attention to high achieving students. NCLB pulls resources and attention from gifted and high achieving kids and focusedsvirtually all of it on the bottom 20%.

All the teachers need to do is get everyone to the lowest common denominator. There is absolutely no motivation to expand the minds of the kids who actually have the potenital to get an MD or PhD but who need a rigorous curriculum to get there. Kids in the bottom 20% can have rewarding and productive lives and careers.. but it’s very, very unlikely that they will be doctors and engineers and Nobel Laureates.

By Taxpayer

July 11, 2006 06:31 PM | Link to this

As a former Henderson parent and current Lakeside parent, I can tell you that I am very happy that Lakeside did not make AYP. Last year, LHS was not supposed to be a receiving school, but because the school made AYP and has a good reputation, many parents demanded administrative transfers, and the board caved in to them. The school was crowded, and when LHS took in Katrina kids,too, things got even worse. Schedules and staffing were a mess, which definitely hurt ALL the kids. This did not serve anyone well — district kids, transfers, or kids already in chaos from the hurricane. I don’t know why Lakeside didn’t meet AYP, and I don’t really care. If it means that kids won’t get their schedules changed five times in a semester and get shuffled from classroom to classroom with no stability or structure, then I’m VERY glad LHS did not meet whatever standard was set.

By ABH

July 11, 2006 06:40 PM | Link to this

Let’s look at a major issue which has impacted Georgia’s extremely poor performance on these tests - changes in demographics throughout the state. How could our results not have been negatively enforced?

Now, everyone will be talking about what’s lacking. Do we need more teachers? Do we need more money poured into our schools? Why waste anyone’s breath? More teachers & more money will not help a bit. Consider the source.

Actually, it is entertainment just reading everyone’s solutions and all the hoop-la that will follow. I sit back and thank God my children are grown and are not in the public school environment.

The lifestyle which used to be evident for those of use who grew up here has gone & is never coming back. Accept it, and go buy a gun for protection.

By Lisa B.

July 11, 2006 06:57 PM | Link to this

Why are the test scores of illegal aliens counted toward AYP? I recently read that Katrina evacuees’ test scores will not impact AYP, and those children are U.S. citizens!

By DB

July 11, 2006 07:00 PM | Link to this

It looks like Lakeside may not have made AYP because of it being a good school last year and so many transferring to it? Who knows?

All I know is that there’s a lot more to a school than test scores. The point is that most kids today could care less, period. If your kids care, they’ll be fine as long as the school is safe and structured as said before. And that is independent of the scores. Talking to the parents of schools is probably the best as principals and supers blow nothing but sunshine regardless of the circumstances. Just make sure you get what your kid needs from the school. If your kids need gifted programs, demand it. If their’s lack of discipline or class disruption, push your principal to eliminate it, for that is their job. Somehow, these days many think that’s not their job when it is.

The best thing we can do as parents is demand that disruptive kids be removed from the classroom and put into other settings. Only then can schools work on the other problems, which are few in number compared to disruption.

By DB

July 11, 2006 07:07 PM | Link to this

Lisa B.: You would be surprised to know that ESOL doesn’t necessarily mean “illegal aliens” as they are usually born here to legal or illegal alien parents, and there is no reliable data to suggest otherwise. Also, many of the “illegal aliens” as you quote may be failing now because they’re learning English, but they’ll be doing well in a few years because their parents instill within them work ethic and responsibility for their actions unlike most of their NATIVE counterparts as parents.

This is not an immigration issue. People just love to cast stones.

By WC

July 11, 2006 07:15 PM | Link to this

NCLB penalizes the school for failure of a small number of students in a particular demographic group for either not passing the test or not showing up to take the test.

Bottom line questions to ask yourself: 1. Did my child do well on the tests? 2. Is my child doing well grade wise? 3. More importantly - did my child take a nationally normed test and do well against the national norms vs. a Georgia only test? 4. Is my child receiving challenging instruction that is strengthening them mentally? 5. Are they motivated to learn independently?

If so - your child will do fine and that’s what counts. The only way to know is to be involved with your child, their education and their moral upbringing so that they become a responsible, accountable taxpaying citizen who has found a field of employment that is interesting and challenging to them and is not a burden on society through no fault of their own.

By PJ

July 11, 2006 07:17 PM | Link to this

All I know is that I and most of the other teachers at our middle school work our butts off for these kids. But even the hardest working kid who doesn’t have a grasp of the language or who is working with an IQ of 65 is not going to understand the concepts as rapidly and thouroughly as other students.

Our middle school did not meet AYP. We are a Title 1 school. Hispanics are in the majority. We have a sizeable population of students with disabilities. We try. They try. NCLB is the worst thing to happen to education in the 20 years I have been teaching.

By Perri Joet

July 11, 2006 07:43 PM | Link to this

There is a tremendous amount of dead weight in the DeKalb County School System. Promotions are not based on merit but who you know; who is your sorror or frat brother; who is your “play god-parent”. Teachers and administrators have always laughed that if you are an administrator and get in a mess, you ‘ll get promoted to the county office.

By Lisa B.

July 11, 2006 07:47 PM | Link to this

DB, thanks for the clarification. My school system has zero ESOL students, so I lack experience with the types of challenges many teachers face in that area. I, too, have frequently read that ESOL students quickly catch up once they overcome the language barrier.

By SET

July 11, 2006 07:51 PM | Link to this

DB:

We call the children of illegals “anchor babies” here in CA. Anchor Babies don’t do well. The “values” transmitted as often as not have them in an underclass - poorly literate and unskilled labor - having more children they can’t take care of than the locals. They have a massive dropout rate. On the average they do not value education. More than half of them do not graduate high school. Their alcoholism (They are mostly Native Indian ethnically) and traffic violations are legend.

Our towns have graffiti popping up, we have a steadily growing Mexican Gang population in our cities and our Prisons. Yes some of the Anchor Babies can assimilate into society but most of them don’t want to or don’t have the IQ to - they are an underclass. And they are a major problem to the public schools.

I have friends who have pulled their kids out of public schools because of the fighting and safety issues and either homeschooled their kids or put them into private schools because the public schools weren’t worth even trying to go to anymore.

And it’s not just my experience. Los Angeles Unified is down to 5% white if the stats I’ve seen are accurate. You can’t run a school for college bound kids with a Mexican-Indian Invasion going on - regardless of color. So in this state we are quite beyond the AYP stats problem. White and Black families are voting with their feet (to Oregon among other states). It will happen to you in time.

Brave New World

By DB

July 11, 2006 07:59 PM | Link to this

Lisa: Yes, I just wanted to stop anything before it gets bigger. You know how people love to make everything an immigration issue when the truth is that kids of all backgrounds are failing. I’m not saying all immigrants have a work ethic, but most do from what I can see. I went to 3 graduations from Forsyth to Dekalb, to Douglas, and I couldn’t help but to notice the fact that almost all kids with Hispanic name were in the “Laude” categories. It all boils down to what WC mentioned.

By Janine

July 11, 2006 08:25 PM | Link to this

You are so right, decaturparent…Vouchers are the goal…I am sure that everyone can see that it is not the school that is failing…it is the students, and as students transfer from the failing schools to those that are not failing….well, you get it…they will all soon be on the DID NOT MAKE AYP list! THEN, THE PERFECT SCENARIO FOR VOUCHERS! I have said this before on this blog..NCLB assigns the responsibility for not making AYP directly on the teachers, and entire faculties have been fired because of failure to make AYP…McNair and Sequoyah in Dekalb just had that happen to them…BUT SURELY WE ALL KNOW THAT if the teaching staffs of the highest scoring schools were to change 1 for 1 with the teachers at the lowest performing schools, the scores would not change.HOW DENSE CAN THIS ADMIISTRATION BE????

By SET

July 11, 2006 08:51 PM | Link to this

DB:

You may have a good point. Things are different from west coast to east coast. Florida’s experience with it’s Hispanic immigrants is much different from Southern California’s. I’ve been to a public HS graduation several years ago - we had speeches in Spanish and a Mexican flags used in the ceremony. We don’t see the Hispanic students prominent but the Asian immigrants (especially Vietnamese, not Hmong) are doing extraordinarily well.

We also have significant clusters of Russian and Eastern European immigrants. Their take on what the US is doing is very interesting. (Love this country, think we’re crazy.) They are doing well also. By “well” I mean much better in school and financially than the local averages.

My concerns with the Mexican exodus into the US is that as a group they are not assimilating, not using english, Commuting to, Voting in and remaining loyal to Mexico and Mexicans, and not cleaving in any way to this country (Other than saying (CA & Southern USA is going to belong to Mexico eventually).

How are the public schools to handle all this? Operate in Spanish?

By concerneddekalbparent

July 11, 2006 08:54 PM | Link to this

DB

The hispanic students who stay in school are generally motivated and well performing. Unfortunately, many others are not. Illegal aliens (and those whose parents are illegal) can not qualify for financial aide at most colleges. I think in Georgia they don’t qaulify for the HOPE and may not even qualify for in-state tuition.

Many Hispanic students drop out and go to work.

Lakeside, Henderson and Peachtree Middle all didn’t make AYP based on the performance of the Hispanic/ESOL subgroup. I suspect that these schools aren’t receiving the resources they need from the school system. DeKalb has been very slow to acknowledge that North side schools have challenges.

By Lena

July 12, 2006 08:29 AM | Link to this

I AGREE WITH CAMMI—YOU ARE RIGHT ON! Parents DO need to accept more responsibility. Like Cammi I too read to my 4th grader (who has been an honor student/principal’s award recipient since 1st grade)or have her read to me EVERY DAY! I take her to the library EVERY WEEK. I encourage her to write letters, short stories, plays, etc; I monitor the amount of time she spends in front of the STUPID TUBE (aka Television);encourage her to open her mind and learn whats going on around her geographically & culturally. We incorporate math and reading into various every-day aspects of our lives (i.e., when cooking we read, follow and measure recipies, etc.); She has fun workbooks (which we get from the teacher’s supply store-cheap), crossword puzzles, board games which requires some sort of mental output. Most importantly I encourage her to ask questions…in our home the only ‘dumb’ question is the one not asked. Yes, it’s easier (for the parent) and fun (for the child) to let him/her run around the neighborhood all summer (or after-school)…but where is the discipline? In order to be successful at anything, there must exist some level of temperance/discipline. All children have various degrees of potential. True, college is not for everyone, but it is our responsibility as parents to hone in on the level of potential our child(ren) are capable of and maximize it. I’m not one for blogging, but I couldnt’ help myself on this topic. God Bless. :o)

By Mary

July 12, 2006 08:51 AM | Link to this

All 3 of the schools that did not make AYP in my district were soley on there for students with disabilities. I know these students can learn, but obviously they are not going to learn the same way or as quickly as other students. I fail to understand why they should be expected to meet the same standards within the same time frame. The state constantly talks about differentiating our curriculum, but they do not differentiate their tests.

By embee

July 12, 2006 08:55 AM | Link to this

NCLB is a cute idea but not very well thought out. Imagine a basketball camp where the objective is for everyone to be able to dunk into a standard goal by camp’s end. One coach has stellar athletes while another has average kids of varying height, another has paraplegics and still another has students who speak no English and have never seen a basketball. At the end of the camp, the coaches are judged on how many of their students can dunk the ball. While the coach of the students who are paraplegics did a great job teaching basketball fundamentals and his students improved greatly, sadly, none of them can dunk the ball. Thus, that coach is labeled a failure as his students did not reach the objective.

I am amazed that we have gotten to the point where our government (and I am Republican leaning)fails to understand that special needs children really do have special needs. Children with true special needs will always have them. Schools will never be able to cure mild retardation, autism, learning disabilities and many other handicapping conditions.

Essentially, we are asking schools to find a cure, quickly, for many conditions that the medical field says are incurable.

By Jolie

July 12, 2006 08:55 AM | Link to this

Research shows it takes ESL students 7 years to be proficient enough to be test ready. Yet, they will take and fail the test and the “school failed”.

By Janine

July 12, 2006 09:10 AM | Link to this

Love the basketball analogy EMBEE…Wonder why our leaders [so-called] in Washington can’t get it~!! I say Washington because it is the Feds who mandated this mess…and I know from personal experience that they have been bombarded with just the types of logic that you mentioned and have totally disregarded it. There are a couple of states who have either considered or voted to let the Feds keep their money rather than implement NCLB…they see the folly of NCLB and believe they can do more for their students without the mandates and WITHOUT that funding.

By Lisa B.

July 12, 2006 09:14 AM | Link to this

Great analogy Embree!

Mary, when educators express concern regarding testing mandates for low IQ students, the response we get from Department of Education personnel and state school board members is always the same. If our expectations were higher, all the children would succeed. These comments are usually followed by a few examples of special ed students who managed to pass the CRCT. I truly wish high expectations COULD cure mental retardation. If high expectations, hard work, great parents, and excellent teachers could change birth defects, my 15-year-old niece with Down Syndrome would have a normal IQ by now!

By Nikole

July 12, 2006 09:26 AM | Link to this

I am a former LHS student and my brother is a current one. My mother is VERY much involved in this school. I am TOTALLY against using standardized tests as tools to evaluate if a school is doing a good job. They should be used to recognize weaknesses and then schools should develop a plan to fix that. LHS is a great school, but my mother has been saying for years that they are not doing enough to make sure that Hispanic students succeed. That means special tutoring/mentoring programs, programs for their parents…I’m sure we all could come up with lots of solutions. THAT should be the next step after getting these resutls. Not labeling schools as failures or complaining that subgroups shouldn’t count. That is what NCLB was meant to do, but has failed to make AYP itself in that area.

By CD

July 12, 2006 09:26 AM | Link to this

I AGREE WITH CAMMI AND LENA. Parents take charge and stop blaming Teachers, Schools, I think you shoul blame yourself. Learning starts from HOME. Take your kids to the library at least once a week, go through the homework, buy extra workbook, monitor the TV. Discuss with your kids. Be a cooperative parents, attend School meeting, parent/teacher’s conference, get involve in School activities. I recognize that their is some teacher that don’t do the right job, but if your kids get the help they need from parents, no matter any schools they attend to, they will do fine as long as their is safety in the school. PARENTS TAKE RESPONSABILITY AND STOP BLAMING OTHER FOR YOUR OWN RESPONSABILITY. If you seat and let someone help educate your child, ASHAME of you.

By JIMMY

July 12, 2006 09:28 AM | Link to this

GOVERNMENT CONTROLLED SCHOOLS KNOWN AS PUBLIC SCHOOLS ARE DOOMED IN GEORGIA.PRIVATE SCHOOLS OR CHURCH RUN SCHOOLS ARE PRODUCING GRADUATES IN FAR GREATER NUMBERS AND CAPABLE OF DOING COLLEGE WORK WITHOUT EXTRA ASSISTANCE. THE BEST PUBLIC SCHOOL STUDENTS ARE BEING THROWN IN WITH MENTALLY HANDICAPPED AND STUDENTS THAT ARE ONLY IN CLASS BECAUSE THE LAW MAKES THEM SIT THERE.THEY BECOME LIKE THEIR CLASSMATES.

By kay

July 12, 2006 09:29 AM | Link to this

My child attends So. Cobb High. We keep putting all the blame on the students, but some teachers must take responsibility. The Math teacher gave 100 on daily work as long as it was turned in on time. It was never checked so tests were the only measure of whether or not the child understood the information. That’s too late! The teachers response when I questioned the process…send your child to before school or after school tutoring so they can ask questions. Isn’t that what class time is for?

By Nikole

July 12, 2006 09:30 AM | Link to this

www.nomoretests.com

By embee

July 12, 2006 09:31 AM | Link to this

You are correct Lisa. Whenever anyone expresses the folly of holding special education students accountable to the same goals as everyone else the response is ALWAYS, “Don’t you think all children can learn?” Of course I do, but I have enough common sense to know that some children will never be able to do algebra or read a book. To put a test in front of those students, that they cannot possibly comprehend, is not only folly and a waste of money, it is cruel. To sanction and humiliate the teachers and schools of such students, because they CANNOT perform at grade level, is probably illegal.

C’mon, surely someone at the federal level or the state level sees the silliness of this!

By embee

July 12, 2006 09:37 AM | Link to this

Jimmy…Statistics show that public schools, especially in large city suburbs, are doing a better job than almost all private schools. Despite what people think, suburban public schools send a higher percentage of students to Ivy League and other top-notch colleges, offer more fine arts and AP classes and, yes, have just as few discipline problems as the private schools. A very thorough study done by Money magazine concluded that “if you live in the suburbs and send your kids to private school, you are probably wasting your money.”

The only things private schools offer that public schools cannot is courses in religion and a lack of diversity.

By Cammi

July 12, 2006 09:53 AM | Link to this

Kay,

I read your comments about the teacher not returning the daily work. Again, that is where the parents should take over. If the parents pick up their child’s books and tests their children on the material then it would not matter whether the teacher hands them back their daily assignments. Education starts and ends at home. The schools are only part of the process it is incumbant upon the parents to “bring up the rear”.

By jim d

July 12, 2006 10:07 AM | Link to this

Proud your school made it? Discouraged because it didn’t? Blaming teachers? Blaming students and or parents? Blaming school administrators?

**It’s all a scam—-Get over it”

The sole purpose of NCLB, AYP, and persistently dangerous school ratings is so the Federal government can come in and take control of the school systems, instituting a national curriculum.

It will happen in our lifetime and nothing we do is going to change that.

The reasons are many, but the bottom line is control of the masses.

Indeed it is a Brave New World

By Robert

July 12, 2006 10:09 AM | Link to this

JIMMY - ALL CAPS MAN…..

It is well known that private schools may excel solely because they do not have deal with many of societies ills like public schools. Little Jimmy with crack-mom single parent cannot afford private school so crack-mom dumps Jimmy on public school to basically baby sit and eat a free lunch.

And, church schools excel because those parents again pay money and are totally involved in their childs life. Jimmy’s crack-mom never attends teacher/parent night and has never even seen what Jimmy’s school looks like.

If all schools had equivalent students, then IMHO, public schools would far outshine other schools because the teachers have been trained to handle these ills while private and church schools have no clue.

By CD

July 12, 2006 10:12 AM | Link to this

Cammi, I really like you. If you notice that the teacher doesn’t check the homework, you should act and have your voice heard even if you have to get the school principal or the Board of Education involve.

Parents get involve and soon we will see the difference in all school. If a new game comes out, you will ruch to get it for your kids, but if it come to get a workbook(it is expensive) come on!

By lynn d

July 12, 2006 10:20 AM | Link to this

Jim D

I think you are wrong. This has to do with privitzing public education. The thought was (is) that if you can get parents to doubt the quality of the public education system, then the citizentry would rise up and demand vouchers. (As an aside, did you know that suburban republicans are generally oppossed to vouchers. They trust their school systems, schools and school boards. They don’t want “others” being able to use vouchers or other forms of choice to be able to opt into their schools.)

What Bush et all didn’t anticipate was the games states would play to avoid flunking (for lack of a better word) schools. Add to that the ability of many educated parents to understand AYP (do you think a lot of Lakeside parents are now looking to transfer their children? I don’t think so. ) In a million years, I don’t think Bush et all would have guessed that most parents just ignore AYP.

By Craig

July 12, 2006 10:20 AM | Link to this

The problem that I have with NCLB is that schools focus on teaching the kids how to take tests rather than retention of knowledge. My kids go to Harrison High in Cobb and there is a huge focus on how to excell on the tests, including the SAT. It seems that we are missing the boat on teaching marketable and useable skills and graduating a bunch of great “test takers”.

By SNY

July 12, 2006 10:35 AM | Link to this

The school that my daughter attend failed miserably. Although I am not surprise. Even the schools around hers failed with the exception of 1. Says enough for me. We’re gone!!!

By SET

July 12, 2006 10:41 AM | Link to this

Embee:

I saw your comment about the parents who send kids to private schools “wasting money”.

It is presumptious to think that a wide variety of people, most with more education than average, will ever waste money. Life doesn’t work that way.

The more people who are widely dispersed are taking this action the more you can rest assured that the public schools avoided are “bad”. People as a rule can be relied on to act in their own interest - unlike governments and large organizations who tend to be more conflicted about what their interests are.

My friends and co-workers have pulled their kids out of the public schools because of the presence of violent promiscuous drug-dealing gangs who clearly mark their territory with graffiti, loud music and tribal dress. You don’t have to wait to be beaten and robbed. You can clearly see and hear what’s going on all around you. So you leave.

Now having said that some of my friends and co-worker’s kids have been in numerous fights. No one wants to pay 6 to 15 thousand non-deductable dollars for what was free.

And I went to public high school in the late 60’s. My school never tolerated tribal dress, loud music (or any music but theirs), much less the slightest aggressive behavior. But public schools today want to make the brats “happy and welcome”.

Maybe the decline has not reached you yet.

Don’t assume parents don’t know what they’re doing.

Brave New World.

By Nikole

July 12, 2006 10:58 AM | Link to this

The comment about people wasting money on private schools are directed to those that live in areas with great public schools and still send their kids to private schools, which is the case many times in Atlanta and I know it happens a lot in Dekalb County.

By decaturparent

July 12, 2006 11:00 AM | Link to this

JIMMY ALL CAPS - My neice just graduated (in ‘04) from Decatur High - a “semi-urban” school with a very diverse student body. Her SAT was 1395. What is the average SAT of your precious private school? My own daughters’ ITBS scores were sky high - higher than the average of any private school that I know of.

I have no problem with folks going to private school or homeschooling. There are lots of good reasons to choose these options. We very seriously considered private school, and our minds are always open to it… but for now, public school seems to be doing the job for us.. in our specific situation.

Please do a little research before you go insulting people that have made a different educational choice.

You know, I wouldn’t be surprised if NCLB is emasculated when they reauthorize it in ‘07. I doubt that any politician will want it sitting over his head during the ‘08 elections.

Alternatively, as public schools really begin to go down the tubes, I wouldn’t be surprised if states don’t start just opting out of NCLB, realizing that the requirements and chaos imposed by it are more expensive than the loss of federal funds.

By embee

July 12, 2006 11:04 AM | Link to this

The quote about wasting money came from Money mgazine, not me.

I don’t have a problem with private schools. Perhaps I will work in one when I retire, but I realize that most parents send their kids to private schools for one or more of four reasons: They think it is more prestigious. They want to protect their kids from exposure to diversity. They have bought into a proven fallacy that their kids will receive a better education. They want religious indoctrination as part of their kids’ school day.

I don’t have a problem with any of those reasons.

I actually like the idea of vouchers. If private schools receive federal money they will have to accept people with disabilities and the playing field will be leveled.

By HB

July 12, 2006 11:16 AM | Link to this

It happens quite a bit in rural GA too. Some parents spend quite a bit of money to send their kids to all-white, private high schools that offer the occasional Bible class and refuse to teach evolution. Those schools rarely have any AP classes, and very few arts or vocational electives are offered. Regardless of their ability, students cannot take Algebra 1 until 9th grade, so Calculus is not offered at all. A third year of foreign language is usually not an option, and often only one foreign language is taught, so students can’t choose between Spanish and French as they can in the vast majority of most public schools (and many rural high schools offer even more choices). All students follow the same track, completing the bare minimum that would be required in a public school for a college prep diploma. Often, the schools aren’t even accredited. In such cases, I consider private school to be a waste of money.

By SNY

July 12, 2006 11:16 AM | Link to this

embee,

One of the reasons I took my child out of private school is because the school was all black and there was no diversity. But guess what, when she went to public school, she was one of only 2 black kids in her class. So lets not think that public schools are any more diverse than private schools.

INMO, money magazine was completely wrong with the “wasting money” comment. My money is being wasted paying for school taxes in a county that stinks education wise. For the money that Gwinnett county receives per student, I could send my child to her private school for 2 years. That is so sad.

Anyway, I made my point about diversity. It goes both ways.

By embee

July 12, 2006 11:19 AM | Link to this

I also need to reiterate that the study looked at suburban high schools in reaching that conclusion. I guess I should add a fifth reason that people would send their kids to a private school: They live in an area where the local schools are unsafe or the average ability level of the students causes an overall brain drain and instruction is dumbed down to meet the average.

Certainly neither are the case in many of Atlanta’s affluent suburban or in-town areas.

By My 2 Cents

July 12, 2006 11:24 AM | Link to this

All these comments are great and add good insight. I especially notice the comments from SET.

I really believe the Mexican population (legal and non legal) have a totally different viewpoint on education. Their focus is work and make money. Our culture is to become educated for a career instead of unskilled labor. Even though their viewpoint is valid in their mind, the real education for them should be to get educated on the culture first. Culture classes should be required for any child or adult entering the USA who is having trouble grasping the concept. If they refuse to learn proper behavior in the school then a boot camp or alternative setting should be required for those people. They should not be allowed to continue to disobey rules because of their culture. Eliminating this concept will help schools to be able to do what they need to do, educate.

Another thing that may disarm the cultural difference is fewer/no jobs for anyone without a GED or HS diploma. It should be absolutely forbidden for anyone to hire an illegal or anchor baby unless there is some type of temporary work permit. Notice, I said TEMPORARY. Jobs should be for the citizens. These dropouts who just want to go to work (their culture) needs to be curtailed.

By V

July 12, 2006 11:35 AM | Link to this

I agree wholeheartedly with Cammi.My sons don’t necessarily like doing summer reading and math exercises during the summer, but by wife and I require them anyway. We both work full time and yes, we’re tired at the end of each day like everyone else. Do we have time to help our children with homework? NO, WE MAKE TIME. I couldn’t tell you the name of a single television network’s evening lineup or even which shows are popular. It’s simply not important compared to how well my children are prepared for the future.

By pam

July 12, 2006 11:44 AM | Link to this

My child is in the Douglas Cty System, and although our school passed I was disappointed in the scores. I think that these tests are important so that parents can keep informed on the status of schools. I am very involved in our school and we let our child do some fun classes in the summer through college for kids programs. My child is in the gifted program but only gets to spend one day a week with that teacher which is a shame because he is trained to teach to these kids(elementary level). It seems as though some of the teachers feel threatened by kids in this program Instead of patting them on the back for being eager to learn and retaining the information they tell me that they’re a bunch of snobs and they try to take over the class. I was told that classes are taught to the highest level child. Is that fair to kids that are behind and need the extra help? Is that fair to the kids that understand the information and could move on to the next thing? My child learns best with hands on, but for some reason our school system doesn’t understand or is not willing to change teaching habits. I would like to see the US take lead from other countries and let parents take the money assigned to their child and use it toward private school. Maybe our schools would have necessary tools for teaching if we had back the $600,00 Schrenko took from our schools.

By catlady

July 12, 2006 11:53 AM | Link to this

The Latino children in our rural elementary school (18%) pass the CRCT in great numbers. They are disproportionately represented among the honor roll students and best citizen award winners. Teachers say, “I wish all my students worked as hard as my Latino students do.” They are bright and motivated, and their parents want them to do well, and to behave themselves. Many continue on honor roll through middle and high school. Perhaps we get the cream of the crop? Our problems in academic achievement and behavior stem mostly from our “native” students who are in special ed or whose parents are not very involved with their lives. I agree that our most advanced children are the ones left behind. They get very few resources devoted to their intellectual development. As a public school teacher, I think AYP/NCLB is a joke being played on the unsophisticated and semi-educated, and I agree that it is a back door to vouchers and the perpetuation of the haves and have nots. It purports to be a win-win situation, but it is actually a lose-lose game over time. So saying, it is imperative that all parents be involved and active in their children’s school lives. We have way too many who want to leave things to the schools to solve instead of being truly informed and active. If the office personnel and teachers of your child’s school don’t recognize you, you need to be more involved! Your child’s teacher and administrator need to know of your interest and concern, and your willingness to speak up to assist them. Parents have much more power than teachers to get problems solved at the individual child level, as well as the school and district-level. I don’t recommend that anyone do what one dear parent did, who, upon learning that her 5th grade child’s name was on the board for having a messy desk, pestered the teacher about “At what time were desks evaluated for messiness, and exactly what are the criteria for calling a desk messy?” Part of being a good parent and an effective parent-teacher is letting the child experience growth-enhancing events unassisted! If my child’s school is on the no-AYP list, I want to know why, with an eye toward being sure the teachers have the resources they need to teach—good discipline, time, materials, parent support, administrative support, and student effort. Then, if all those things are in place, if the special ed or ESOL classes results are not up to AYP standards, I would not be concerned.

By Kay

July 12, 2006 11:54 AM | Link to this

Cammi, I did take my child to the tutoring sessions, which is why she passed her class. That is my job as a parent to make sure she receives the help needed. I never said it wasn’t my responsiblity to assist in any way necessary. When I was in school, my teachers taught during class, we asked questions and received help then. Not every parent has the means to get their children to extra tutoring sessions. Not all parents can teach High School Courses to their children. What then?

CD You’re right, maybe I should have gone to a higher authority. Instead I made sure my child received the help needed. If this happens again this year, I will definitely do so. Hopefully it will also help another child whose parents are not involved.

By Cindy

July 12, 2006 11:54 AM | Link to this

So who are we going to believe - the AJC.com data or the dept of education website data? Both schools that my kids go to have conflicting data between the two sites!

By LW

July 12, 2006 11:55 AM | Link to this

I agree with the one who suggest that parents need to take more responsibilities. However, everyone involved with schools shoudl take more responsibilities. I am an educator and I am a parent. We need to go beyond just reviewing our children’s homework and getting more involved. We need to understand the areas that our child needs help with on this standardized test. Review your child’s test scores when you recieve them and find additional ways of helping them to understand their deficit areas. For schools, it is imperative that we educate parents who do not understand what the domains mean. Reading the test results for some is like reading a foreign language. If schools and parents work together on this then it can have a tremendous effect on our children’s scores. Some children only missed the passing mark by a couple of points. NCLB in my opinion is a joke. They expect children who have been classified as having an IQ of a 1st or 2nd grader to take an 8th grade test. Even after these students have been in classes with other students classified as having mild intellectual disabilities. If this continues then the goal of 100% of students being proficient by 2014 is an unrealistic goal.

By Nel

July 12, 2006 11:59 AM | Link to this

Ernest:

You’re so right. Parental involvement, parental involvement, parental involvement! It’s really not brain surgery and has been studies up the ying yang and proven to be true for those who have the aptitude to succeed. For example, Tucker & Shamrock Middle. Although they both got overwhelmed last year, they made AYP. The parents at these schools are fanatical school boosters who you don’t have to bribe to attend PTA meetings. It’s a wonderful sight to behold and hopefully the parents who transferred there will get the spark and take it back home. All of this has nothing I believe to do with which side of Dekalb County the school is located, apathy is distructive wherever it’s allowed to fester.

By Nel

July 12, 2006 12:10 PM | Link to this

OldSchool: I really find it interesting that we are giving visas to thousands of people every year to come her to fill technical positions because American employers don’t believe American’s are up to the task. Last I heard they had already issued visas 2 years into the future with more still needed. Many moons ago when I attended school, the guys had options one of which was technical drawing. I had a friend who was employed right out of Secondary School and is still doing that today. Many of us as girls did shop after school in metalwork (it wasn’t accepted back then for women to have that as a class) but it was great. Traditional college is not for everyone and it is criminally unfair to put that into the heads of all of our children. Lord, when will we stop chasing our tails.

By NI7

July 12, 2006 12:11 PM | Link to this

Parents are not the only ones blaming the teachers for a school’s low test scores. In May of this year the teachers at my school were told that they were the problem and the school was being restructured. “Master” teachers would be brought in to teach and given a signing bonus for teaching a “low performing’ school. Those of us who had worked very hard for the past year (and many years before that) were told that it did not matter if the school made AYP this year or not. It was a slap in the face for all of us. Our teachers did everything that was asked of us by the county, including using curriculum that specifically stated they were NOT designed for English Language Learners (the majority of our school population). Restructuring was the easiest of the options for the county to implement and although it had been done at another middle school two years earlier and proven not to work they used it again. Ironically we did make AYP this year, too bad the faculty is being replaced. I hope the “Master” teachers lured by the extra money keep in mind that the students are children and not statistics.

By Cammi

July 12, 2006 12:11 PM | Link to this

Kay,

I was not particularly picking at you, but making comments about the situation at hand. Good for you that you took steps to help your child, it’s what you were supposed to have done. Additionally, to the best of my knowledge, most highschools offer some sort of FREE tutorial programs to the students. It’s just a matter of asking questions and taking advantage of what is offered. A lot of individual teachers at the schools offer tutorial time. Again, it’s just a matter of inquiring and following through. Some people complain that it is incovenient to make sure that their child/children get to school a little earlier or stay after school later to take advantage of the programs, but it is the child who suffers in the end.

By Gwinnett Teacher

July 12, 2006 12:12 PM | Link to this

Allow me to add my 2 cents - parental involvement means to be involved with your child in every aspect of his/her life, including education. It does not mean showing up unannounced in my classroom to try to “help”. When you do this - it violates public school security mandates, compromises confidentiality of students in the classroom, and is just rude! If and when I need assistance in my classroom, I will specifically ask for it and provide you with specific tasks and dates that I need you!

By Nel

July 12, 2006 12:16 PM | Link to this

decaturparent:

Not only is Shamrock a good school, it has parents who are demanding, and a new Principal last year who did right by his faculty and students. Another is that probably the majority of parents who transferred did so because they wanted the best for their children. Unfortunately, this leaves the neighborhood schools in pretty bad shape. As to voichers, do they really pay the full tuition at a private school? I don’t think so.

By SET

July 12, 2006 12:30 PM | Link to this

An afterthought on the invasion issue. I’m not saying the Mexican Indian colonists CA is living with are bad or evil. Just that they are different. We don’t want to live with this difference. That’s why we object mightily to thier presence in our schools and our country.

I have in-laws from 3rd world countries. They played by the rules and emigrated legally and have obtained green cards then citizenship. They’ve also obtained postgraduate degrees. Although they visit their former countries they and children are American and there is no dual-citizenship as far as they are concerned. Other relatives have moved to Europe and married locals and had children there. They wouldn’t dare march in the streets there waving American Flags demanding their “rights”.

There is a difference between immigrants and colonists. California is undergoing colonization by Mexico who’s colonists are openly recreating their home nation within our borders - with all their social pathology (crime, disease, sanitation & hygene, overcrowding, poverty substence use, etc - Have you seen Tijauna?). And our government is complicit in this conduct. Thus our anger.

I don’t know how the public schools are susposed to survive this. We’re voting down school bonds in Mexican occupied areas. Why pay for this?

By GR

July 12, 2006 12:38 PM | Link to this

How come a school (ELMS) in Henry County that showed a 40%+ failure rate in Math CRCT score and a 30%+ failing rate in science make the grade. Cathy Cox, YOU will never get my vote. Am I the only one or does’nt it seem funny that after the State of Georgia reviewed these reports for two-three weeks before they went public that maybe (assumption) the scores were tampered. Come on people wake up and smell the coffee, when we had discipline in schools 15 years ago there was no “Child Left Behind” . How about putting some more discipline in these schools and if some parents do not like it then let them take their kids to another school. Nine times out of Ten the parents that think their child would never do something wrong are usually the kids that do.

By TC

July 12, 2006 12:43 PM | Link to this

Everyone has it wrong. NCLB has nothing to do with schools being good or bad or childeren being dumb or intelligent. Ask ANY and I mean ANY teacher and they will tell you it is an absolute joke. It is a stupid program that should be flushed.

By Nel

July 12, 2006 12:43 PM | Link to this

DM, unfortuntately a school can fail for as little as one student who may be in fragile health taking one day too may our of school. You would be surprised what can make a traditionally exceptional school fail. Listen to the parents that you know whose children attend the schools. Believe me, they’d complain loudly if things weren’t right.

By Nikole

July 12, 2006 12:46 PM | Link to this

SET-Please get over it. It’s time to stop complaining about the changes going on in this country and start offering solutions so that we can all live here peacefully, maintaining our individual cultures and accepting differences. This is not a homogeneous society and we need to accept that and move on. And while I have only read about it, you actually lived in a time where the comments you have made about immigrants were once made about blacks. I find it ironic when blacks turn around and spout the racist comments about others that were once reserved for them.

By Robert

July 12, 2006 12:47 PM | Link to this

Just a thought…

Is NCLB simply the federal governments way of stop funding any public schools and forcing states to pay for all of it? This way Bush and the republicans will have more federal money to give to the wealthy with tax breaks or go after their ‘enemies’ around the world.

By catlady

July 12, 2006 12:48 PM | Link to this

One thing about parent involvement that is interesting at our school: PTA meetings are attended by less than a dozen “native” parents, usually moms. On special nights promoted by our school library, 2/3 of those attending are Latino. When I hold a “parent night” for Latino parents (talking about how to have a meeting with the teacher, how to understand the report card, etc., and lasting 2 or more hours) it is routine that 30-40 parents, usually dads but some moms also, show up, out of a school that serves about 60 Latino families. Of course, they bring their children too, so we have special activities for them. I’d love to see 300 Anglo parents show up for a one hour meeting for PTA or Open House! All parents, especially those who have had the “advantage” of free education all their lives need to show their interest and support. Maybe some of us take our schools for granted…. I recognize that the parents at other schools in other systems may already be very active. Ours is a poor, rural system, and each setting must find the “hook” to get their parents involved, if they are not already. Research indicates that students in small, neighborhood schools are more likely to be successful. Parents are more likely to express “ownership” of the school. I wonder if anyone in Georgia has looked at school size as a function of AYP?

By DB

July 12, 2006 12:53 PM | Link to this

SET: I agree with you on the West Coast problems. I spent some time out in Anaheim with relatives where almost every kid is in a gang. I don’t know if the East Coast will ever turn out that way due to many factors. I sure hope not. But I do know it’s not just the fault of immigrants. There are many factors that play into it all. I agree that you should pledge to our flag while here and learn English. My wife is an immigrant, and she feels the same way.

embee: I totally disagree. I’ve had kids in both situations, now both are in private school. I went to public school, a very good one. And it prepared me nowhere near what my kids are receiving. I can tell you with experience and being all over the U.S.(and teaching) that private school is without doubt much better(right now), but I can’t speak for all private schools. Your data of where kids end up has no data on how they fair in life after school. Also, I would like you to refer me to the study as I’m sure I can pick it apart faster than a styrofoam cup.

If you want your kids to learn discipline, self-control, work ethic, and how the real-world works(receiving consequences for your actions), it’s tougher to find a public school that promotes that than to find a private one. Sure, at private school you have all the rich kids, but at least most have to abide by the rules and pass their courses, or they get kicked out. That’s how it works where my kids go. Behavioral and academic expectations are therefore higher, period. And another thing they learn is that they can’t just complain and get what they want. A few can in private school, but most can’t. It’s nothing like public school.

The sad part is that public schools used to promote all that, and they still could if laws were changed to ignore the squeaky wheels that bog it down. I honestly wish, for our nation, that public schools did have authority and could educate our kids or at least create civil, hard-working people. But they just can’t with the laws in place today and the fear of litigation.

I think we’re facing a serious societal downfall because of this. I know the American spirit is strong, so I sure hope it bounces back.

By Lisa B.

July 12, 2006 12:54 PM | Link to this

GR, What types of discipline do you suggest?

Because of lawsuits, most schools have banished corporal punishment. There is no alternative education funding for students below 6th grade. If students are suspended, those unexcused absences reflect badly on the school, not the children. Attendance is tied in with making AYP. ISS isn’t funded by the state, so many poorer schools don’t offer it. New federal wellness policies state that PE cannot be withheld from children as punishment. Many schools stopped recess a few years ago. Recess isn’t on the CRCT. I’ve had parents say teachers aren’t tough enough of their kids. Teachers have few ways to punish children for acting up or not completing work. I know there is a direct correlation between school discipline and school achievement, and can’t understand why discipline has been thrown out the window.

By lisa

July 12, 2006 12:56 PM | Link to this

I mean should parents especially those in the city of Atlanta be shock about the scores, i wasn’t!!! i have several friends who are teachers who weep everyday about the school system and how the school put this pressure on them about getting students to pass a test,so there forth they don’t even get a chance to implement basic curriculm.We as parents need to demand the state to change this manadated test which hold our kids future in there hands!!! i’am sick and tired of witnessing kids crying who are pretty much A or B student but yet can’t pass this test!!! we have students who are becoming physically ill from the anxiety of not knowing if they will past or not.Parents must get involved!!! we must as parents make our school principal counselor be more accountable, we must get information that will better help our kids it’s a horror show to know that our superintendent who kids went to private schools think this is okay it’s not!!!! we put school representatives in postion to represent but yet we are in a state of emergency with our schools and it’s policy.

By hidingcauseihaveto

July 12, 2006 12:56 PM | Link to this

At the DeKalb board meeting this week, the head of human resources reported that McNair Middle still had 10 teaching positions to fill and Sequoyah Middle was only 55% staffed. Please tell me what kind of master teachers you are going to find in late July.

I also heard that the prinicpal of McNair Middle (the new one) has hired two teachers as assistant principals — totally green. Why not hire experienced assistants?

If I lived in either of these communities, I would be raising holly h*ll.

By DB

July 12, 2006 12:57 PM | Link to this

catlady: Good points. Of course Georgia hasn’t looked at it. And any promise to make schools smaller is just lip service. They think they can educate 5000 in a high school when there’s absolutely no control in the first place. Even in rural areas they clump them together to save money. Go figure.

By DB

July 12, 2006 01:02 PM | Link to this

My 2 Cents: I totally agree about the boot camp part, but I think that should apply to all who misbehave, including whites, blacks, asians(not many there), etc. You speak as if the latinos are the only ones misbehaving when it’s very well distributed.

By DB

July 12, 2006 01:06 PM | Link to this

My 2 Cents: You’ve obviously never hired anyone saying jobs should be reserved for citizens. Jobs should be reserved for those that WORK and WORK HARD. I must say with experience that our citizens don’t provide that luxury. Except for a select few, the work ethic in the Southeast is almost zero if you haven’t noticed. Many citizens would much rather work as little as possible and receive help from the government. I do think that our public education has something to do with that.

By SNY

July 12, 2006 01:06 PM | Link to this

Gwinnett Teacher,

Your attitude about parental involvement and help is the exact reason I am getting my kid out of Gwinnett schools. Teachers everywhere are screaming that they need help but they want us parents to be at their beck and call. It doesn’t work that way. I never have to call ahead to get into my private school. I show up, I sign in, I go to my kids class and I help. It is that simple. How do I know that you are not mistreating my kid if I have to tell you everytime I am about to show up? I want to see you in action as well as my kid. You never know, I may catch one of you doing or saying something that shouldn’t be said. You should never be upset if you don’t get parental involvement in your classroom. Why should a parent wait on you to tell them that they can come and sit in on a class. That is our right as parents to see what is going on in the class. If you don’t like it too bad.

By GR

July 12, 2006 01:14 PM | Link to this

Lisa B. I will give you an example of what punishment we should have.

Last year my daughter’s 6th grade classroom was consistently interupted by 3 boys that did not respect their teachers time and waisted alot of the other students time with constant idiotic interruptions. These 3 boys were sent to the office 5 times that I know of but were only given in-school suspension, warnings, write-ups and the other students had to conform some of their schedules and classroom seating to accommodate these troubled boys. I am sorry but if my child ever were to disrespect a teacher or interupt a class more than once or even twice in the manner these 3 boys did, I would strongly be considering “Alternate Schooling” for my child especially if in-school supsension is not working. But some of the parents of these troubled boys thought they were being singled out when I know for a fact they were not they just did not care and neither did the parents. I think that after 5th grade students and parents need to be held accountable for their childrens behavior. Why should the other students have to suffer?

P.S. I do know that 2 of the 3 boys failed 6th grade, maybe that got through to their parents but then again maybe they just don’t care.

By Jerry

July 12, 2006 01:14 PM | Link to this

As a teacher at a school who has failed for a number of years and as a teacher who had nearly 90% of his students pass CRCT this past school year the problem is very obvious to me.

The bench mark is set for the schools and by complaining about how unfair it is my fellow colleagues and I are earning and well deserving all the criticism we are getting.
It’s time to be a professional, show up for work and expect nothing less than perfection from the students, parents, administration and yourself.

By Kage

July 12, 2006 01:16 PM | Link to this

Hey Patti, Based on the most recent comments on today’s post, I think a blog about what parental involvement means might be in order! I think that learning the differences in perspectives could be illuminating.

By DB

July 12, 2006 01:24 PM | Link to this

I think we’re all focusing too much on career and money. Schools should give our kids the tools to seek out careers and money if they so decide, or to have enough skills to excel at a non-skilled job they acquire. It should give them the knowledge that life is not fair and that you get little without hard work. Our system is doing none of the above.

All I ask is that kids in high school should be able to read, write, do simple algebra to a point where they can balance a checkbook and understand how a bank rips you off, and act civil and polite realizing cooperation is needed in society. Kids should be taught self-control so they don’t get themselves into the debt, pregnancy, and troubles with law that are so prevalent today. They should be able to read to the point where they can make informed decisions about the politicians for whom they vote. All of this is fantasy, but it once existed. This does not require religion as many people think; it just requires real consequences and real expectations. And they need to know that THEY are the ones who need to meet them.

Instead we create self-centered jerks who don’t even say “Thank you.” or “How are you ?” when you pull up to the drive thru window or by something at Kroger. And they can’t make change when you give them $16 for something that cost $10.50 because they already typed into $15 the register. We call the DMV(or whatever it is now) only to talk with person after person that knows nothing and has no interest in truly helping you. We create a generation that thinks they are entitled to paying nothing for Medical Care and should receive rent help from Section 8 while working their maximum of 32 hours per week while they could be working more but decide not to in order to receive the Section 8. We have people suing for medical malpractice because he or she can’t learn to maintain their blood sugar and lost his or her leg even though the medical office told him or her(even called them) to come in twice a week, and of course the person didn’t. It goes on and on. Let’s just keep playing the blame game and blame everyone else for our problems. That’s what our system promotes.

By DB

July 12, 2006 01:25 PM | Link to this

I agree with Kage! We’ve beaten this blog enough!

By Gwinnett Teacher

July 12, 2006 01:26 PM | Link to this

SNY - I never lack parents to help in my classroom! They respect me, and understand that they need to follow protocol. If that’s not something you’re used to doing (which is strange since you claim to be ex-military) - then it’s a good thing that you’re leaving public school. I don’t think that it is unreasonable to have parents sign in for scheduled classroom visits. If a disgruntled parent came into the classroom and your daughter got hurt - you’d be the first one filing a lawsuit! I seen parents like you leave and come back many times before!

Good luck with your child in the predominately Black private school! I hope she gets all the skills and education necessary for her to be competitive will her peers, but, I doubt it!

By HB

July 12, 2006 01:31 PM | Link to this

SNY, there’s a difference between sitting in on a class and helping out. I absolutely think parents should be able to drop in without warning once in a while, as long as the same child’s parents don’t come in too often (if mommy’s there too much, I think it’s disruptive to the child). If you want to actually help out, though, it’s necessary to call ahead. Teachers need help with a variety of tasks and can have something ready to give you if they know you’re coming. If you show up unannounced, they may not be able to drop everything to show you how you can be of help.

By Gwinnett Teacher

July 12, 2006 01:32 PM | Link to this

SNY -

typo - “will” should be “with”

By OldSchool

July 12, 2006 01:39 PM | Link to this

I have never had a single behavior problem with any of the Hispanic/Latino or Asian students in my Engineering Drawing classes. They have been hardworking and some even came in during their lunch or before school for extra seat time.

Success- whether it is a test score, a diploma, a single assignment- is largely up to the individual. If your child passes any mandated test, then it means everyone was doing his/her job: teacher, parent, administration, STUDENT. You can’t “Christmas Tree” life and expect to do well.

NCLB was (as I recall) based on flawed data from Texas schools. Remember: Statistics mean never having to say you’re certain.

My own daughters were A-B students who did okay on the SAT and pretty well on the ACT. Both took additional courses at an area technical school to supplement their academic program when their schedules did not allow vocational classes. Both graduated college with 3.5-3.8 GPAs. Both are happily and successfully employed in careers they love. That, gentle bloggers, is success and it is what each parent wants for his/her child. It’s a matter of each individual deciding what is important and taking appropriate action for himself/herself. It can be done…

…in spite of school…public or private.

By DB

July 12, 2006 01:46 PM | Link to this

SNY: It’s all about trust. If you feel you have to walk into a classroom(and disrupt it) without notice, you’ve got some serious issues at hand. And you’re paying your kid a disservice by “protecting” him or her by trying to “catch” teachers saying this or that. Wow! You should have an honest relationship with your kid, and your kid should be able to tell you when there is a problem, and you should be able to address it with the teacher in a professional manner outside the classroom. In a real school, private or public, you must go through protocol to enter a classroom, and there are several reasons for this, one being respect. Go to a search engine and type in “Helicopter Parent” and press the search button.

By DB

July 12, 2006 01:50 PM | Link to this

Oldschool always come in and makes sense! Good points! But I don’t agree that everyone was doing his or her job simply if a student passes a mandated test.

By jim d

July 12, 2006 01:54 PM | Link to this

Well Robert, you could be right.

NCLB is definetly either about stopping the money or controlling what they are funding. I just lean towards the latter.

By DB

July 12, 2006 01:57 PM | Link to this

It looks like this blog already covered it: http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/custom/blogs/education/entries/2005/02/14/areyouahelicopterparent.html

By 30 Year teacher

July 12, 2006 02:03 PM | Link to this

To SNY

One of the reasons that teachers need advance notice if parents want to come to help is this. We do not always have jobs that a parent can do. For instance, due to confidentiality requirements I cannot allow you to grade papers, tests, etc. although I would dearly love the help. Frequently I can use help running things off, preparing a bulletin board, or even working with a student but I need to know when you will be there in order to prepare materials that you will need. I cannot stop teaching to do so when you show up unannounced in my classroom.

In addition there are days when there really is no reasson for a volunteer and your time will be wasted making the trip to school.

I teach at-risk AND AP middle and high school kids so perhaps elementary teachers may have a different perspective but this is mine. Also, my at-risk kids can lose all concentration when something out of their normal routine occurs so your walking in without warning would be a great hindrance to any teaching I was doing at the moment.

By Patti Ghezzi

July 12, 2006 02:12 PM | Link to this

Hi Cindy,

Please let me know what schools you are looking into, and I’ll try to help. CRCT data is the big data set, and AYP is calculated using CRCT scores. It could be you are looking at CRCT scores in one case and AYP data in another. I’m sorry if we are falling short in the clarity department.

Patti

By DB

July 12, 2006 02:16 PM | Link to this

Hmm… Parent involvement? It’s my opinion that parent involvement takes little more than making sure his or her kid is well-behaved, motivated, and ready to learn. And when the kid lacks in any of those departments, the parent should seriously back the teacher and hold the kid accountable, period. I don’t need parents to volunteer anything, but I do ask that some come in and talk about their careers. I teach high school of course. I honestly think the best parents are those that create kids who are totally self-sufficient, and I love to run into those parents and compliment their accomplishments.

By Kage

July 12, 2006 02:22 PM | Link to this

I teach elementary school and have the same issues as 30 year teacher does.

I would love to be able to have a parent grade and/or file papers for me. Our school does not forbid it, however, I feel that I owe my students confidentiality and therefore would not feel comfortable having a parent grade/file.

Sometimes I do have things I need help with - cutting out letters, preparing materials for a math/science lesson, etc. However, I need advance notice in order to have these things ready and to have gone over the instructions. If I know a parent is coming in on a regular basis, then I can also plan to have that person read with below-grade-level readers.

Parents are welcome in my room at any time (provided they sign in, of course - safety first!). However, they should know that I am not going to stop instruction to talk with them. They are welcome to sit in the room and observe the lesson. When I come to a natural stopping point, I will ask if they are just here to observe or if there is something else they had on their minds. More often than not, they just want to observe. I respect that. I like that they want to stay informed. Especially if it is a parent I have been talking to about a child’s off-task behavior, I appreciate them coming in. If they want to discuss something, then I will set up an appt for a time that suits us both.

I will not interrupt instructional time. It’s too valuable.

By lisa

July 12, 2006 02:33 PM | Link to this

i would think if parents took there kids out of public schools and home school them, then public schools will get it’s act together it’s obvious what is about to happen with holding children back, crime will get really bad jails will be built like fast food franchise and more deaths of our young.it’s so wrong that older people who are in position who never had to take a test or passing these policy i say shame on all.Parents this is on us to make this law change for our students.

By KC

July 12, 2006 02:58 PM | Link to this

Craig, Harrison High AKA Heroin High from the word on the streets

By Hertz

July 12, 2006 03:00 PM | Link to this

The failing schools are directly correlated to race. The higher percentage of black students the higher failure rates.

By SNY

July 12, 2006 03:16 PM | Link to this

Well,

It has never been a problem before this year for me to just drop by and help. The other teachers had a table with instructions on it about what needed to be done. Parents came in, sat down and started grading papers, or cutting out shapes for the bulletin board or something. The teachers never had to stop instruction and show us what needed to be done. I guess those of us parents whose kids attend this school are spoiled. I really am beginning to think that. It’s like someone told me before, private and public schools are just different.

I may not be looking for something and I may trust the teacher completely, but remember, I also said that I could catch my kid doing something wrong. Let’s face it, I know that my kid isn’t behaving herself all the time when I’m not around. If her teacher tells me that she is talking a little too much. I can believe that and I talk to her about it at home. But, if I can catch her in the act, then she has no excuse. She can’t claim that the teacher had her confused with another student or that she was just answering another student who asked her a question. As much as I would like to believe that my “baby” always does the right thing when I’m not around, I realistically know better. My point was that sometimes, when you peak your head in a class, you catch something off the wall. I’m there to help in anyway I can, but I’m also there to protect. Whether it be my child or the teacher.

By Janine

July 12, 2006 03:19 PM | Link to this

Well Hertz….not quite true.Schools with an a high percentage of students who do not speak English and/or special education students fail also

By Nikole

July 12, 2006 03:20 PM | Link to this

Hertz-Your theory would lead us to believe that the majority black schools are all failing, which is not true. Please add something meaningful to the conversation.

By lisa

July 12, 2006 03:30 PM | Link to this

Apparently Hertz you have a valid point and we no the reason for that we as a race do not have more 2parents family a lot of family or headed by single parents or grandparent which cause less parent paticipation our social economics are diffrent than other race we have more sterotype and stigma we have the highest rate in unwed pregnancy aids contamination.more of our males is in prison.We no all of this exist, however we must as a community wake up and realize we can not assume because we are buying houses and have a car or a good job more female college graduates that we are doing good,because we are not!!!! anytime a race have a half of a million black males in jail something is wrong.anytime you have prodimantly a black school board but yet in the black district we are still failing over and over again something is wrong.How long will we right here in ATLANTA and all over the state of georgia and especially in the african american community continue to close our eyes on what’s really going on.

By Cammi

July 12, 2006 03:49 PM | Link to this

I am a single parent and I STAY involved in my child’s education and life in general. I work a full-time 9-5 but I still manage to volunteer at her school, monitor the friends with whom she keeps company, monitor her music, television time, etc. Granted she is only 8 1/2 and it’s easier to control her environment at this time, I do not forsee changing my methods when she is a teenager. And, by the way, I am BLACK!

By DB

July 12, 2006 03:53 PM | Link to this

Before this falls into another “beat down the blacks session”, let me say our kids are failing no matter what they are. These days, the only difference between the “have’s” and the “have nots” is work ethic and socioeconomic status. It is not black that takes it down; it’s poverty. It just so happens that many blacks are in poverty in Georgia(and the rest of the U.S.), and there are many blacks in Georgia. If you take the poor whites, you see the same thing, little work ethic and little respect for anything including education. Try looking up some schools in Appalachia where I grew up where it’s 99% white. You see the same thing, but the ones failing the tests are just poor.

By DB

July 12, 2006 04:04 PM | Link to this

SNY: I see we’re talking about apples and oranges here. It seems your kids are young and in elementary school.

By lisa

July 12, 2006 04:10 PM | Link to this

i must say if we had all single parents to participate regardless of race the school sytem would be GREAT!!!! however this is not the world we live in, now Cammi you can put blinders on your eyes if you choose but the world i live in we have a whole lot of single parents who must work to provide and just can’t take off and we have a lot of parents who just don’t care enough about there kids,but my point is this you alone will not make a diffrence we which I’AM BLACK must wake up and realize there is a problem and find some solution!!! i say kudos to you but what about all the other kids who don’t have motheres like yourself, will you be a mentor to them will you share your knowledge and wisdom with there parents on what to do and what not to do.Our problem as a race we do not collaborate to make change we only condemn!!! we continue to think with more money less problem well look at Dallas Austin.we now we must admit we have a major problem.

By SNY

July 12, 2006 04:24 PM | Link to this

Don’t bring certain people who have nothing to do with this into this situation. Dallas is a nice, respectable human being and a wonderful, caring, involved father!!!! You are right about one thing though, we do need to come together and help each other out. Until then, nothing will change.

By DB

July 12, 2006 04:41 PM | Link to this

Lisa: I think it’s a problem of all races. It’s created by the fact that schools and bad parents(created by conditions below) make kids think there are no consequences for their actions, and parents do the same be either doing nothing or defending their kids at all costs. Then next thing you know, kid has a baby at age 14 because (he and) she had no idea what real life is about. Then they have all sorts a problems because they have a kid to worry about, dad runs off and makes more while mom keeps trying to find the “one” who is right while living at home with her struggling mother(same for daddy). Ten years later you have a mom with 5 kids all with different last names and ignoring them because she simply can’t keep up with her job and kids and is overwhelmed. And you have dad who may be going around making more and more babies. These situations are all too common and like a cancer that grows unchecked within an “entitled” society where everyone can blame others for their problems.

WE have two options. We can push for our society(parents and schools) to start handing out consequences and promote responsibility and self-accountability and quit catering to the irresponsible, or we can keep going down this ugly path until our society collapses in crime, entitlement programs, and public debt. The only other option is to regulate childbirth, which is not going to happen, nor would I want it to happen.

So, in essence, each and every one of us can start a change by holding our kids accountable for their actions. It’s so simple. All the good parents need to get together and demand that schools punish the disruptive students and take them out of the classrooms. The schools will follow, and eventually problem children will again be a minority.

By DB

July 12, 2006 04:49 PM | Link to this

I forgot to mention that the kids they make are mostly responsible for the problems in schools, not to say they’re responsible for all the problems. And the cycle goes on and on when they end up doing the same thing.

By SNY

July 12, 2006 05:00 PM | Link to this

DB,

What you said about demanding the schools to punish the disruptive kids is great in theory. But when we do, then we get labeled as angry and aggressive. We can’t win for losing, as my grandmother would say.

By Former Parent

July 12, 2006 05:02 PM | Link to this

What’s happen to Gainesville City School System? It’s really gone down in quality of education. Leadership at Gainesville High “The Flagship” of the school system is sinking. And let’s not forget Gainesville Middle. I am glad my child graduated and is no longer in Gainesville City School System. You may want to clean house and look at acquiring new board members. It’s past time for an overhaul.

By Are You Kidding?

July 12, 2006 05:49 PM | Link to this

SNY - Dallas Austin is a drug-abusing convicted criminal who happens to have lots of money and influential friends! Choose your role models more carefully.

By Nja

July 12, 2006 06:00 PM | Link to this

Are you kidding- Ha, ha, ha! It’s amazing isn’t it.

By SET

July 12, 2006 06:25 PM | Link to this

DB,

Poverty has nothing to do with success. You can take everything from successful people and they’ll get rich again. I’ve personally known lots of legal immigrants who came here with only the clothes on their backs and with no formal education and have Houses and Hondas now. It’s common.

Try IQ. That’s the defining difference between the haves and the have nots in this country and in the world. Also - early puberty is not good for success in life or mortality rates. Now look at your ethnic averages for both these factors.

By SNY

July 13, 2006 08:57 AM | Link to this

Kidding,

First of all my only role model is My Lord and Savior. I don’t have role models. I just happen to like Dallas and believe in him. That is my right as a human being. Don’t tell me how to choose my role models. If you don’t like him fine but don’t personally blast a man that you don’t even know.

By Are You Kidding

July 13, 2006 10:27 AM | Link to this

SNY - Well, the joke’s on you - I HAVE MET DALLAS AUSTIN!!!! My niece is a back-up singer and I have been at events with Dallas Austin. I will not get into details, but, I know of which I speak!! Do you?

By DB

July 13, 2006 11:49 AM | Link to this

SET: I wasn’t equating the lack of success to poverty. I was equating the low test scores to poverty. And the “have” an “have nots” statement was also about test scores meaning that there’s a direct correlation between being a “have not” and having low test scores. But low test scores on these jokes of tests has nothing to do with IQ. Maybe I wasn’t clear. I was simply explaining the test scores, which are absolutely correlated with family income. True success in life has little to do with test scores. And being a “have” does not mean you’re successful. Being a “have” or “have not” has most to do with what your family is. If you were born a “have”, you’ll probably end up one. All those poverty to riches stories are great but not too common. If you’re born poor, chances are you’ll be poor. Poverty is tough to escape, and few do it. Even most that do it only do it temporarily as their lack of money management skills usually put them right back where they started.

But on your IQ comment, I wouldn’t say it’s all about IQ. But increased IQ certainly helps. And IQ has very little to do with these CRCT tests anyway. A lot of the kids that fail this could make up for lost time very easily as soon as they put in the effort. This test is a minimum standard, very minimum at that. And IQ is just one minor factor in success(or being rich as most here are thinking). There is no direct correlation between IQ and riches. There is only a connection shown with IQ in that people with higher IQ’s tend to be more successful in college(and more likely to go) and therefore earn slightly more income. But don’t assume that means there is a direct correlation between IQ and income level for everyone. The number one factor that determines your socioeconomic level is your parents(especially when talking about the ability to attend college). And, yes, we all know there are exceptions as you noted, but it’s not common. Most people stay within the same status as their parents, and some become richer or poorer. Success in life(as income) therefore has mostly to do with family wealth sprinkled with persistence, drive, personality, looks, work ethic, IQ, and creativity among other things like being able to find one’s passion and talent or being at the right place at the right time. IQ is only part of that. There are a lot of people with high IQ’s that aren’t so successful(and many with extremely high IQ’s are in fact criminals and antisocial), and there are a lot of people with low IQ’s that are quite successful because they have many other qualities or were born into a successful family. And then we need to define success because every person has a different definition anyway. If you’re goal in life is to have as many sexual partners and be the pimp daddy, that’s one form of success. If you’re goal is make a million dollars a year, that’s another. If you’re goal is to help others, that’s another. If your goal is to pass the mandated tests, you surely don’t have to have a high IQ to do so, nor do you need a high IQ to become a pimp daddy, teacher, social worker, CEO, janitor, etc. It’s my opinion that the most important things are motivation, work ethic, persistence, and interpersonal skills since most people have average IQ’s.

Anyway, thanks for the continued contributions.

By DB

July 13, 2006 11:52 AM | Link to this

SNY: It’s really not that tough. Administrators do exactly what parents want. The problem is the bad parents are the ones complaining, and the good parents are quiet. I can guarantee you if you have a group of good parents demanding real consequences for disruptive students(most just taking them out of class and making their life as miserable as they make the other students), you’d get results. As soon as administrators see their jobs being threatened, they’ll do anything.

By SNY

July 13, 2006 12:17 PM | Link to this

DB,

Okay, what else can we do? Unfortunately everyone on this post is scattered all around. Somehow, we need to get all the parents that care together in an arena and sit down and have a “we’re taking our schools back” campaign. If the neighborhoods can do it against drugs, why can’t we do it with schools?

Patti,

Do you think that the AJC will pay to have a forum somewhere? (if we all promise to be nice).

Just a thought. We have to start somewhere.

By Perri Joet

July 13, 2006 01:30 PM | Link to this

At McNair and Sequoyah, everyone was required to reapply for their jobs. My understanding is that the only one’s who were not rehired were those who didn’t return. The staff who are returning are being rewarded with incentive pay. And DeKalb will probably hire a new crop of friends and relatives as consultants and co-ordinators to oversee the same old stuff!

By jim d

July 13, 2006 01:56 PM | Link to this

DB,

The forum already exists.

Show up and be heard at your local BOE meetings.

By lisa

July 13, 2006 03:44 PM | Link to this

Yes Mr. DB Mr. Austin is a prime example because once again he have the money along with an addiction but yet he is a good person!! he just have some drug problem.once again i’am confuss and so are the children if you rich and commit a crime you just made a mistake if you educated rich or parents or professional your exempt!!! DB if you judge someone based on IQ I SUGGEST YOU START IN THE PRISON SYSTEM:we have the most brillant minded people lock up based on IQ!!!.DB i respect your opinion but i don’t agree because you see, i see it all the time as well hear it by people like you who assume because people have money or even our Miseducated people have it all together but in reality they don’t.take a deep look within yourself and realize the truth not illusion which right about now our sister and brother or chasing everyday only to realize it’s a lie.PEACE

By DB

July 13, 2006 04:01 PM | Link to this

Lisa: I’m not sure why you’re getting all over me. Did you read someone else’s post and think it was me, or did you just misread my post? I don’t judge people by IQ as I posted IQ is only a small part of success. All I said is that low test scores are directly correlated to poverty, regardless of race. And I never mentioned Dallas Austin as I have no idea who that is. Take the time to go over the last few posts, or be more specific as to what you’re saying because I have no idea what’s going on. I’m actually on your side.

By lisa

July 13, 2006 04:02 PM | Link to this

Also:DB do you think kids who is not as smart are come from poorer background are less deserving as Mr. Austin? I realize people like DB must be some kind of organization which think people less fortunate should be ostracized!!! DB YO AND THIS ORGANIZATION YOUR IN CAN MAKE A DIFFRENCE BUT I SEE YOU WOULD ONLY ADD FUEL TO A FIRE.

By DB

July 13, 2006 04:07 PM | Link to this

Lisa: Now that I read your post again, I am severely confused. I have no idea what illusion I’m supposedly seeing as I never said people with money have it all together. In fact, I said that most rich people are just rich because their family is rich and that there’s no real difference between them and a poor person. But I also took the time to note that success has little to do with being rich in that most people define success by money, which I think is wrong. I think you totally misunderstood me.

By Nja

July 13, 2006 04:36 PM | Link to this

DB- she is having trouble determining who wrote what.

It was SNY and Kidding that were having the discussion about Dallas Austin.

Lisa- go check out the new blog about grammar- pretty interesting.

By SET

July 13, 2006 04:36 PM | Link to this

DB:

I think our points intersect in several places. IQ is the single most determinative thing in sorting out the winners and loser in our society. It tends to run in families - even more so that we now have assortive mating where marriages are no longer a more random match but like marrying like.

A warning about this shift was one of the first and most major sections of “The Bell Curve” which is summarized in Wikipedia.Com (online enclyclopedia). The other things we talk about such as SATs, LSAT, GMATs, and all the standardized tests are really proxies for IQ.

The concern of the Bell Curve and the line of research from it’s publication is that the USA and other nations are coming to be ruled by (Power is concentrating in) a cognitive elite who are in the process of breaking off from society at large and living, schooling, dating, marrying and working only with themselves. And they reproduce less than the low IQ population.

One wonders why BUShCo is flooding the USA with Hispanic-Indians from Mexico who have an average IQ well below the USA Whites and Above the USA Blacks and reproduce faster than anyone? Bake this for 20 years and see what your demographics are… A New Nation more to somebody’s liking, not mine.

Believe me, if you think things are jumping in this country now just give it 5, 10, 15 and 20 more years at the rate of IQ related decline. We will end in a dictatorship and it will be voted in (It doesn’t matter whether republican or democratic - same people involved). Just like the Weimar Republic. And I don’t think any of this is an accident.

As far as Lisa’s post - I can barely understand her thinking because of her writing style. From what I can make out there is no evidence that she has education, training or experience to support her opinion. Perhaps she will post more about herself so we can understand where her point of view is coming from.

By SET

July 13, 2006 04:42 PM | Link to this

Who is this Mr Austin that Lisa refers to and what’s the controversy involving him?

By SET

July 13, 2006 04:45 PM | Link to this

DB:

You said most people are rich just because their families are rich.

I think the real issue is that they are rich because their families are smart.

By Patti Ghezzi

July 13, 2006 04:55 PM | Link to this

SET: Mr. Austin is Dallas Austin, a record producer who was arrested in Dubai for possessing cocaine. He was convicted and sentenced to four years in prison but then pardoned and put back on a plane. He’s back in Atlanta now, going to church and sipping Champagne at pricey restaurants. The story has gotten a lot of ink locally, though I do not see how it is appropriate on a school blog.

Patti

By Nja

July 13, 2006 04:57 PM | Link to this

SET-

Dallas Austin is a music producer from Atlanta. In May he went to Dubai to attend a birthday party and was detained at customs because he was found with cocaine. He pled guilty and was given 4 years. He was then pardoned.

Lisa mentioned Dallas in an earlier post and SNY mentioned that he was nice and respectable and someone else disagreed.

This Dallas Austin story is much bigger in Atlanta. The rest of the world really does not care.

By DB

July 13, 2006 04:58 PM | Link to this

SET: Yes, being smart is part of it, but it doesn’t guarantee it. Being a hard worker and willing to take risks and take advantage of situations along with being smart are the keys. I still think being smart is only part of the equation, but I won’t deny that most rich people are smart. I do know a lot of dumb ones though. I am in Georgia you know.

I looked up Dallas, and it’s some rapper who was arrested in Dubai for a gram or two of cocaine. He was then pardoned.

By SET

July 13, 2006 05:17 PM | Link to this

DB I agree: dull people can’t hold onto their money. I’ve seen people swindled out of millions. They never should have been left the money by the relatives who made it. It should have been locked up in trust.

Entertainers are a good example. Bob Hope died as one of the richest although he didn’t rake it in as fast as Whitney. Being smart is the single most important thing to passing along enduring wealth. It’ll be interesting to see how Paris Hilton ends up.

As to the Austin story: My point exactly. Michael Jackson & OJ also.

As to the worship of some of these defective personalities by young people… Some will learn better with age and some by actually experiencing some of their idols.

Pain instructs. Or as Maya Angelou said - When someone shows you what they are, believe them.

By DB

July 13, 2006 05:20 PM | Link to this

SET: I would shy away from quoting Wikipedia as it’s not that reliable. IQ is a tough thing to define as far as how well IQ represents intelligence. And no study with people can have a “control” where everything can be attributed to IQ alone. Also, genetically, IQ doesn’t pass down as well as people think. Parents with high IQ’s tend to have children with IQ’s more toward the average, and parents with low IQ’s tend to have kids with higher IQ’s. It’s a perfect system where most people are average. And IQ’s has a lot more to do with early stimulation more than anything.

And I thought the immigrants are coming in simply because corporations make more profit that way. I hardly think Bush cares about 20 years from now, but I think he’s definitely benefitting from thousands of corporations having cheap labor right here, right now.

I don’t think the U.S. will be a dictatorship because the American spirit is strong. However, in a way, it already is a dictatorship where the rich run the country and make decisions for everyone. The middle class is going to be a thing of the past. And the lower class will swell.

I won’t argue with you that most rich people have above average intelligence, but IQ is just a small part of intelligence. There are a lot of intelligent people that aren’t rich, and there are a lot of not-so-intelligent people that are. My point is that most people are of average IQ and intelligence.

As for the Bell Curve, the cognitive elite simply have education, opportunity, and stimulation, and therefore do separate themselves. But I will guarantee you they have no more potential(at birth) on average than most other people as a human brain is a human brain, and stimulation is what makes it smarter. In fact, the “cognitive elite” reproduce much less and at older ages(blighted ovum), so therefere there is no natural selection for having more “brain potential” because most everyone survives to reproductive age regardless of income. A good study would be to look at “adopted children” within the cognitive elite. You’ll find that they pan out just as well. And the best part is that most adopted children come from broken or poor family lines. I’m sure a study on that has already been done.

By DB

July 13, 2006 05:21 PM | Link to this

What a great conversation we have going.

By DB

July 13, 2006 05:23 PM | Link to this

SET: But I wouldn’t say that Bob Hope had a higher IQ than Whitney. I would just say he had better examples around him and a different lifestyle, and their true IQ’s were probably similar given their musical talent.

By DB

July 13, 2006 05:25 PM | Link to this

SET: And actually, many dull people do hold on to their money. I just don’t think money smarts has a lot to do with IQ. It’s more about how you were brought up.

By DB

July 13, 2006 05:27 PM | Link to this

SET: Paris Hilton will be fine. Her father is one of the best money managers on Earth.

By SET

July 13, 2006 05:37 PM | Link to this

DB, I’m not quoting Wikipedia but it’s a real fast way to get a snapshot of the subject. I have read the book.

We disagree about Bob Hope and Whitney. Big Time. Yes, it is the IQ. Smarter people are able to play chess a lot better than the dull. The game of life is a lot like Chess. Higher IQs are better able to chose and to delay immediate gratification for later gain which Hope did with his California Real Estate purchases which took a lifetime to make him reportedly the largest private landholder and one of the very richest men in this state before he died.

In my experience It’s usually nature not nurture that really separates the haves from the have nots.

I had written a contrasting statement about Whitney and then deleted it because she is still alive and living in the Atlanta area. You know what I mean. I shouldn’t use Patti’s blog to dwell on real people.

By SET

July 13, 2006 05:41 PM | Link to this

DB: But will Paris take orders from Dear Old Dad? Doubt it. Say what you will about her antics she’s as canny with her cash flow as Mick Jagger and I don’t think she has his Econ degree from the London School of Economics (I think that’s his degree). My point again (Paris & Dear Old Dad) about genetics.

By DB

July 13, 2006 05:58 PM | Link to this

SET: All you just told me is that it’s self-control that matters. Anyone can get better at Chess. It’s funny you say that becaue I’m a chess coach! :) Play more chess and have a good teacher, and you’ll be good. Whether or not you’re the absolute top has a lot to do with IQ but much more to do with creativity, reading others, and many other things that separate. The best players have about the same IQ, but they win due to other factors. And I’m agreeing that genetics plays a big role, but most people are the same as far as ability is concerned. It’s more about stimulation and nutrition. I’m saying that Whitney, Bob, and Paris were probably all born similar in ability, but that all had different upbringings and expectations. You pluck any baby from a family in the lower end of the bell curve and put them in the upper end, and they’ll fit in just fine and end up on the upper end.

Again, I think we’ve beaten this enough. My opinion is simply that IQ is a small part of the big picture.

By teachertoo

July 13, 2006 05:58 PM | Link to this

Guys, Can’t we PLEASE stay on topic on these blogs? The topic was AYP, and how we feel as parents, teachers and members of the community as to whether or not our schools made AYP. I don’t see how Dallas Austin, Bob Hope, Mick Jagger and the rest relate to this topic!! Signed Frustrated

By DB

July 13, 2006 06:01 PM | Link to this

And what about Nicole Ritchie, the adopted kid? Is she going to fall to the lower end of the Bell Curve because her real dad had drug issues and her real mom is Latina?

By DB

July 13, 2006 06:08 PM | Link to this

teachertoo: No one is posting anything about the real blogging topic. I’m sorry I was intrigued. This is what blogging is all about if you ask me.

By SET

July 13, 2006 06:50 PM | Link to this

Teacher Too: These discussions of such things as IQ go to the issue of why we are seeing the stats we do from the schools. And why we shouldn’t be surprised at what is unfolding. And why things are going to get worse.

Bear with us.

DB:

have you read the book The Bell Curve or any of the later books that flowed from it’s research?

As to Nicole Ritchie - genetic stats apply to large groups, not individuals.

By RA

July 14, 2006 09:35 AM | Link to this

When I was choosing schools for my children, (just last year) the criteria that were most important in my search were 1) SAT and ACT scores for the feeder highschool and the percentage of students who took those tests (I wasn’t impressed by high scores if only 2% of the student body took the test); 2) AP test participation and scores, 3) percentage of students in ESOL; 4)percentage of students receiving Free and Reduced Lunch; and lastly, 4)CRCT scores and EOCT scores at the middle and elementary school level.

I never looked at AYP. I didn’t care really. My own search criteria probably eliminated most schools that didn’t make AYP. But if a school had high AP participation and high national test scores among its college bound students, I really didn’t care what was going on with the other students.

I used the GA K-12 Report Card to get a snap shot of how the teachers in the school were educating the students who were motivated to learn. I don’t believe its fair to judge teachers so harshly on how they manage the population that doesn’t want to be in school. As a parent, I want excellent teachers, I’m not looking for miracle workers.

By DB

July 14, 2006 11:09 AM | Link to this

SET: Yes, I read it, but it’s about as scientific as creation science. Based on your posts from the last year, I don’t think you are. Please, don’t tell me you’re a supporter of that, too. And I wouldn’t think you are based on your obvious intelligence. It’s brilliant how well it can manipulate the minds of those that read it. I was in awe when it first came out, but through time and reflection I’ve discovered that it’s not all that accurate(or at least the conclusions are shaky at best). There are so many holes in it I don’t know where to start. I would say connecting college success only to IQ is probably the biggest problem, and then there are the serious sampling errors(it doesn’t really look at the population as a whole and concentrates on the transient end product and superficial benchmarks of success). It doesn’t take into account the changes in population over time(immigration, technology, etc.). Sure, a lot of it makes sense based on the data presented, but too much data is left out. Also, then the IQ of the populations is totally baseless, especially in America when different races have completely different backgrounds, socioeconomics, goals, etc., which totally effect the outcome and is pretty much ignored by the authors. The conclusions the make can only be made with “all things being equal”, and all things are far from being equal in reality. Now, do the different races have different IQ’s? I can’t say they don’t because I have no reliable data, but I will assure you if they do, the differences are so small that they wouldn’t make a difference. Making any conclusions about IQ on a large scale basis is impossible, period. The whole book is th e old example of a biased experiment where the scientist wants a certain result and finds all the data to support it, and casts out data that invalidates it. IQ is only a part of the recipe, and IQ is also largely dependent upon opportunity. I guess my point is that IQ is sort of a symptom of a good upbringing that promotes financial success. It’s more like success selects those that have realized their potential(you call it IQ) because they have many other qualities that support success. The cognitive elite is composed of those that have most the other qualities, besides IQ, that are needed, and much more important if you ask me, for success.

By DB

July 14, 2006 12:11 PM | Link to this

And then you again have to measure success and recognize those taking the AFQT tend more likely to be minority in the first place and thinking about going into the military; the sample is therefore biased and non-random(and conveniently misrepresents the white population). If you measure success(as they didn’t really give a good definition of it), you have a lot of variables that were ignored. Say a position were open in a doctor’s office. If a black man were to apply along with a few white people, you would be crazy to think the black person would have an equal chance to get hired(in this society), even if his credentials were much better. And if the black man were to get hired, he would most likely be paid less. So the whole contruct of success and “cognitive elite” is biased and cannot be statistically corrected.

The cognitive elite is therefore composed of populations that value education, hard work, and intelligence and therefore set their goals toward “success” as defined in The Bell Curve. However, to say it all boils down to intelligence is just fantasy.

By SET

July 14, 2006 12:21 PM | Link to this

DB: As a working hypothesis to explain what is happening in the USA and the world the proposition put forth in TBC holds interest. There have been more studies since. Not everything may turn out as described - it will take more than our lifetimes to see this through to the end.

I’m a big beliver in Darwin.

And as to your belief in “other qualities” being responsible - It’s my belief that these other qualities are heritible also and to some degree are intertwined with brain processing speed. Moreover there is reason to suspect that at the higher IQs for one reason or another other things are lost. Alturism (among other things) becomes toxic. Other mental issues appear in the higher intelligence-average groups.

In group settings you need a balance to survive and prosper. Since IQ is varied over a family grouping a large family would have a smart one and duller siblings to do the heavy lifting - or the defense work. If you’ve gone to school with Irish families of 10 kids you’ve seen it in action.

Another example: the ethnic Jews have an average IQ one standard deviation above the USA whites. Yet as a group during WW2 they bought into gun control and got marched to the Holocaust. Would an equal number of ethnic Irish have been so easily disposed of - I don’t think so. In modern times the Nationalist Jews having learned a few lessons from the 20th Century, make no apologies for killing their enemies. Whether they can hold out remains to be seen. They are under relentless pressure from within and without to appease those who would eat them for dinner. White South Africa didn’t hold out and surrendered their existence in the end. Oh, they got hooked on cheap labor. Kind of like Los Angeles and the Hispanic Maids.

For the other readers: - sorry if the posts from DB and I seem to be off topic but the topis is the troubled public school statistics. Debating what is wrong with the kids in the bad schools is part of debating the problem with the school results. Although some people still think if you throw more money at them they will have better test scores.

By SET

July 14, 2006 12:35 PM | Link to this

DB:

You last post is logically flawed also but I don’t think we can keep this debate going in this topic further than we have. Patti will doubtless bring the issues back again and we can try to pick up.

OK I’ll say this. Affirmative Action renders the degrees and credentials of every black product of that system suspect. And I’m putting that very mildly. I’ve lived this and I’ve seen it.

Depending which decade, and which setting, hiring chances are affected by this syndrome. Some things can’t be faked such as Tiger Woods’ win stats. Qualifications of a Dr or Lawyer, especially a newly minted one, are largely the reputation of the program they came up through. And I know very well what that’s worth nowadays.

We’ve outlawed AA in Calif in public schools and the black ratios in the professional schools are heading down to 1% which is where some stats predict they’d be on a race-blind basis. But at the same time the White numbers are under attack by the higher average minorities. Remember the Jewish quotas the Ivy League Colleges tried imposing when the GI Bill sent a flood of returning servicemen into the colleges? How about the Asian caps San Francisco imposed on the desirable High Schools when the whites found themselves dispossessed? And our huge and growing Vietnamese and Eastern European immigrants in this state are making academic mincemeat out of the people who thought this was their town. All of the ethnic protections are illegal now and there’s hell to pay…

And NCLB requires the carefull collection and publication of racial academic stats.

Brave New World.

By DB

July 14, 2006 02:27 PM | Link to this

SET: How exactly is my last post logically flawed? I think you’re mistaking me for some liberal who’s trying to push the liberal agenda. I’m simply trying to put school back in school. I’m not advocating for AA, and I think you meant Altruism, right? I’m advocating for schools to put in place real behavioral expectations and real “selectivity” into the system where achievement is real, and hopefully society will follow suit and allow people to rise to the top solely based on accomplishment. To say that certain races are less capable on average and therefore should be placated with menial jobs is absolutely ridiculous. Brave new world my butt! I agree that many things are genetically inherited, but the variations are minute as with every other trait. Practically , what you’re saying as far as intelligence is concerned, some people with one race have 6 fingers, and other races 7, and 5, and so on. And you’re saying the environment in which one lives has nothing to do with where people end up when in reality it’s a mix of the two. The differences are not that extreme in intelligence. And again, IQ is only one factor in a big mix. And increased IQ is well linked to increased education and increased socioeconomic status in the first place. And it would be dangerous to say people with higher IQ receive education because of their IQ. You can’t ignore that. So making conclusions based on IQ measurements using only those that have been measured is absolutely going to support the point being made. The human mind adapts to the conditions to which it’s exposed. If you take say, the 60% of intelligence being inherited(as TBC states), what about the other 40%? It comes from the environment. Blindly attributing social class based SOLELY on IQ is just ludicrous. There is no doubt a cognitive elite, but IQ plays only a part in forming it.

I know better than to delve into this further as I know your opinion won’t change. You also seem to ignore the fact that SAT scores are dropping in whites while increasing in latino and blacks. The reason is because the population of lower class whites is growing, and the population of middle and upper class blacks and latinos are growing. This is SAT data though, so it’s also quite subjective. And, yes, things will get worse not because of “genetics” or unattainable expectations of the minorities(as insinuated by TBC) but because of the lack of expectations, both behavioral and academic, which stems mostly from the family. The uneducated portion of society will swell in number because it’s a cycle of not having goals and a work ethic. The numbers will drop along with the increase in lower class. And the educated will get even more powerful. The average in the middle that now makes up most of our society will disappear. But, genetically, the average “potential” of all will stay relatively the same. And, I’m not one to think you can throw money at it. You need to throw self-accountability at the problem.

As for affirmative action, it did serve its purpose, but it is now time for people to take care of themselves without it. The problem with AA is that it gave people more of an advantage instead of just making things equal. That’s just my opinion.