Get Schooled

By jim d

July 10, 2006 11:37 AM | Link to this

Patti,

Dekalb’s no worse than any other school system.

While each district’s superintendent must certify the data as “accurate and complete” with the state Department of Education. There would be no penalty for falsely reporting. Just look at J.A. Wilbanks and Gwinnett’s reporting a year ago. They missed the mark by 5 figures and blamed it on ignorance. (The one true statement regarding this issue)

By thomas

July 10, 2006 11:57 AM | Link to this

The database I saw about school discipline was rather vague. It supposedly represented rates per 100 students for the most severe infractions.

For the most part, these violent incidences occur mostly at the middle and high school level. Surprising (and most dishearteningly) more and more violence is occurring at middle schools now.

I didn’t gain a great deal of insight looking at the numbers. I already knew what school systems were warzones and which ones were relatively peaceful. I think most people know this already. Which would your rather send your kids to (or work at)- a school in North Fulton or South Atlanta?

Also from experience, I do know that some incidents are covered up. Not every discipline incident is logged on a student’s record or in the computer. Very serious ones, yes. Moderate to minor ones, maybe not. It is up to the discretion of administrative personnel.

Personally, I would like to see the number of incidents of disruption and disrespect. Also what about discipline incidents per individual school. Now that would be some useful info. You could actually compare disbehavior by school.

By SET

July 10, 2006 12:06 PM | Link to this

This will be an interesting topic - wonder if anyone can correlate discipline numbers at the schools with percentage of student body from female headed households?

My point would be - it is not the teacher’s fault (and maybe not administration?) that a given school has higher numbers. So teachers (and administrators) should not necessarily be penalized financially for this. The school has to take what it gets. If the school is loaded by a certain profile of students the school will have a certain profile of test scores and discipline reports. Trying to tie salaries or even continuation of jobs to having “good” or even average numbers (Can we say NCLB?) penalizes those who work in minority communities - who have below average profiles of IQ and related pathology (like unbridled aggression and female headed households).

What NCLB will do is keep anyone from taking a job in the minority schools because of the looming sanctions.

I believe you can have ghetto schools that do have much better performance on discipline and testing, but the means to get those results are foreign to the current Educrats in power. The politically correct way of thinking is that you run a ghetto school just like you run a white school in the suburbs. The results are nationally right in our faces thanks to NCLB which forces the stats to be collected and posted by race.

One thing that is to be expected is wholesale cooking of the books. Especially since no one nationally has been sent to jail for false reporting. Falsifying the stats wards off the NCLB sanctions, at least for awhile. Like steroid use in HS football, the ones that don’t cheat find themselves losing out to those who do. In time the cheating spreads.

And our teachers have to work in this minefield.

The onlu way out of this mess is to adopt the system used in most Asian and European countries where the students are separated by puberty and put into different schools based on ability and aptitude, so the students whose thinking is more “concrete” quickly get into the trades and the workforce. If you will be making your living with your hands you need to start early.

Brave New World!

By jim d

July 10, 2006 12:10 PM | Link to this

Right you are, If a crime is committed and no one is charged it isn’t reported and even then unless the accused is paneled it is not reported.

So if a student commits a crime, gets caught—sent to juvenile court and sentenced but is not paneled by the school, the crime, regardless of how serious an offense, is not reported to the DOE.

Now I ask you. Is that going to give one an accurate picture of what is happening in our schools?

By Brian

July 10, 2006 12:20 PM | Link to this

If we are allowed to enforce discipline in the classrooms then an academic increase will follow.

By jim d

July 10, 2006 12:23 PM | Link to this

SET,

Don’t know about all of that but can verify that well over 60% of the incidents are committed by 5% of the student population. I could elaborate and explain which 5% but then I’d just set off the folks that have students with special needs.

By MA

July 10, 2006 12:43 PM | Link to this

Don’t get too upset if your school system is high or too proud if it is low. The numbers are based reported incidents and the primary reporter is the school principal. I have personal knowledge of several incidents of sexual harassment in my elementary school that were not labelled as such because the principal said “It can’t be sexual harassment if the kids are too young to have sex.”

By Douglas Co. teacher

July 10, 2006 12:56 PM | Link to this

I’m glad Douglas County’s numbers are headed down, but I still think they’re way too high. That’s not to say they shouldn’t actually be higher—I’m sure numerous incidents have occurred at my school that have not been reported to the state. I say this because if the incidents had been reported, there’s no way those kids would still be in our school.

Douglas County has a theory akin to “20 strikes and you’re out” instead of the three it should be. A kid pretty much has to stab/shoot/molest another kid in order to even be placed in alternative school in DC, much less be expelled permanently. Notice I said “another kid,” not a teacher. We have been cussed out in the most vile way imaginable, spit at, hit, kicked, etc., and nothing more than a few days of OSS are assigned. THEN we have to work with the student when they get back in order for them to catch up!

I agree with Thomas on two points:

The “discretion” of administrative personnel should not exist. IMHO, if you do the crime, you do the time. All this gray being injected into a black and white issue is what’s keeping these kids feeling invisible until they do something “really bad.”

Amen! Little snowflakes create huge snowballs if you let them roll and grow. I have known many students over the years that continually disrespect their teachers and disrupt their classrooms, get ISS, and then come right back and do it again. They spend time in ISS at least once a month, and since their crimes are “minor,” (not in my opinion, but in the administrator’s) their punishment is never ramped up to anything worse than ISS. Even though most of these kids usually don’t escalate to “major” crimes, there is no reason for them to quit being jerks if their level of punishment never changes. Meanwhile, we teachers have to deal with them over and over again.

So, to sum it up, I think all districts should have to keep ACCURATE records on EVERY discipline offence, no matter how “minor” someone may think it is. And when they don’t, someone’s head needs to go to the chopping block (the discipline admin in that school). The trickle-down effect from that would have a major impact on how the students feel about breaking the rules of our system.

By MBW

July 10, 2006 01:27 PM | Link to this

As a former teacher in APS, I can testify with reasonable confidence that the discipline numbers are underreported. There is simply no way that Dekalb schools are twice as dangerous as APS. The school where I taught endured numerous fights each week, chaotic class changes, food fights in the cafeteria, widespread disrespect toward staff members, and much of it was committed by repeat offenders.

The schools underreport the data by assigning students to in-school suspension, saturday detention, or intentionally mis-cateogorizing the behavior so that they can avoid having to “suspend” the student. A common tool I’ve seen used is classifying a fight as a “class/school disruption” instead of a “fight”. Suspending students must be reported and it also affects the school’s attendance rate for NCLB.

The biggest problem in APS, in my view, is that the schools/administrators have a distinct lack of urgency in dealing with discipline on a school level. Some of this comes from the increased work-load that doing so would create, but some of it also comes from the tacit belief that the students “come from a bad community” and should be given some slack. They fear that vigorously prosecuting the chronic problem students would demoralize them or make them more likely to drop out later. While there may be some merit to that idea, APS schools (middle schools in particular) need to realize that 5-10% of the students do not have the right to ruin the educational experience for everyone else.

APS needs to set behavior standards high, because to do otherwise sets an atmosphere of low-expectations for kids who really deserve/need better.

By SNY

July 10, 2006 01:37 PM | Link to this

Brian,

What kind of discipline are you talking about? I am all for classroom discipline but there has to be a line that is NEVER crossed. The problem is that NEVER really doesn’t exist. Sooner or later, some teacher some where will cross that line. I, as a parent, do feel for you teachers if what you say is true, but what can we do about it? The parents that care, stop little Becky’s behavior, the parents that don’t care, do nothing.

By SET

July 10, 2006 01:52 PM | Link to this

Jim D:

Low IQ is matched, especially with males, with a higher level of aggression and willingness to use force. It wouldn’t surprise me that the “Special Ed” boys make themselves known when mainstreamed in a normal school. If 5% of your students are creating most of the problems the way to end the problem is to expell the troublemakers - or force them to change to avoid expulsion.

If the real mission statement of the school included having peace and quiet this would occur. Since our politically correct public schools place a premium on “diversity” and not offending any “group”, bad behavior is tolerated or encouraged in the name of diversity and keeping the groups happy.

The schools I came up through wouldn’t even tolerate bad spoken english, grammar and handwriting. Big Surprise, everybody learned how to read, write and talk standard english. Our public schools do not include standard english in their mission statement. They don’t require good deportment either.

Brave New World.

By Teacher Teacher

July 10, 2006 02:23 PM | Link to this

What about the danger administrators pose to teachers? How is that taken into consideration with these tables of numbers?

For instance, a particular teacher at a particular high school has had innumerable problems with a first-year principal who, incidentally, has a history of having innumerable problems with innumerable staff members. The particular teacher filed seven formal complaints against this particular principal, and the County Office, after ignoring State law concerning the hearing of formal complaints, contacted the particular teacher each time to see if the particular teacher would be amenable to *informal” resolution of the complaint(s). Each time the particular teacher acquiesced. Each time an informal meeting was convened with the particular teacher, the particular principal, the area director, a representative from the Superintendent’s Office, and a representative from HR. Each time the particular principal was instructed to leave the particular teacher alone, not to harass the particular teacher, not to come around the particular teacher, just to let the particular teacher teach. Each time, within days of each meeting, the particular principal was back in the particular teacher’s face doing even more unprofessional, unethical things. This culuminated in the particular teacher being assaulted by the particular principal in front of the particular teacher’s classroom full of students. The particular teacher sought assistance from the County Office, but none was forthcoming. The particular teacher sought assistance from State Court, but none was forthcoming. In the process, the particular principal in an effort to CYA had particular assistant principals contact students who had witnessed the assault of the particular teacher and obtain statements from the students in which the particular assistant principals told the students what to write. It goes without saying that what the students were told to write was not what happened, but what the particular principal wanted the students to write had happened. This transpired a week after the school system’s own detectives investigated the particular teacher’s allegations, obtained statements from student-witnesses, attempted to no avail to obtain a statement from the particular principal, and agreed to appear in court to support the particular teacher. The students were actually told not to tell their parents that the particular assistant principals had met with the parents’ children; however, the school system’s detectives themselves actually contacted the parents to tell them of the investigation and the gathering of statements. In State Court, a student under oath detailed this chain of events; however, nothing was done about it by the school system. The particular principal continues to be principal even though it would appear very obvious that the particular principal engaged in at least two felonies, subornation of perjury and witness tampering.

Teachers get squeezed from both ends, by belligerent, out of control students and by arrogant, out of control administrators. When will something be done about admnistrator abuse of power? If something were to be done, then I firmly believe the incidence of violent behavior of students to teachers would diminish because the students would clearly see that aggression toward teachers even by those in supervisory roles over teachers will not be tolerated.

I try to be an optimist, but, increasingly, I am alarmed at the willful abuse by administrators of teachers. That is why I belong to MACE. You should, too. Click [here] for information about the Metro Association of Classroom Educators, and, by the way, Patti, I was completely floored that ya’ll quoted Dr. Trotter in the article about these discipline numbers! Perhaps there is some hope for the AJC after all. (Supply a smiley face here.)

Thanks for reading, and have a good day!

By Teacher Teacher

July 10, 2006 02:29 PM | Link to this

I got so worked up that I forgot the link. Click here: MACE

By jim d

July 10, 2006 02:30 PM | Link to this

SET,

I don’t believe we can generalize that “especially with males” statement.

Some of the worst offenses are truly by the opposite sex. (well in HS anyway)

I personally know of more girls being sent to alternative schools than I do boys. This may be partially true because the schools in our area provide boys with more physical contact sports where they can, shall we say, “exercise” their agression.

By Dana

July 10, 2006 02:42 PM | Link to this

If the students are allowed to teach minus the constant discipline problems, then students will learn, and test scores will come up. Unfortunately, it seems that our schools are not being forthcoming with real data about discipline problems.

By jim d

July 10, 2006 02:45 PM | Link to this

Teacher Teacher,

Sounds to me like particular teacher needs to take a particular principal out behind the a particular gym after school and just whoop his particular as$.

By SNY

July 10, 2006 03:02 PM | Link to this

jim d.,

I LOVE YOU!!!! You said the exact same thing that I was thinking as I read the post.

Teacher Teacher,

That is absolutely horrible.

By OldSchool

July 10, 2006 03:23 PM | Link to this

Folks, ANYONE (doesn’t have to be a teacher, principal, staff member or even connected with a school) can report such actions to the Professional Standards Commission. They will investigate and determine what if any action needs to be taken. It is your moral (and most likely legal) responsibility to report any person in education whose actions are in violation of the law or school regulations. (I may not be saying that exactly correctly but you understand what I mean.)

Right now I’m rather steamed over TeacherTeacher’s story and can’t recall the website. None of us should ever let the “good ol’ boy” network in our school/school systems cover up the despiccable actions of any personnel.

By Patti Ghezzi

July 10, 2006 03:24 PM | Link to this

Teacher, Teacher,

We quoted Trotter in our story because we believed he is an informed source on this subject. However, we almost didn’t quote him and will not likely do so again because he refused to say how many members MACE has. MACE will have an easier time getting treated like a credible organization when it becomes more forthcoming about basic information.

Patti

By jim d

July 10, 2006 03:34 PM | Link to this

Great article on under-reporting.

http://www.schoolsecurity.org/trends/schoolcrimereporting.html

By jim d

July 10, 2006 03:40 PM | Link to this

Old School,

I do believe it’s a crime in most states to fail to report a crime one has seen being committed regardless if it’s a school thing.

By SET

July 10, 2006 03:48 PM | Link to this

Jim D:

Girlfights are terrible - I understand they favor cutting instruments. But the numbers still overwhemingly favor males as being more aggressive. You can see the results in the population split of juvenile prisons (and the male/female mortality tables).

There is a saying that “Men act out and Women act in” referring to the different methods of aggression and violence the two sexes exhibit. Women may (normally) instigate a war but Men will (normally) pull the trigger. While there are exceptions to the rule, they are just exceptions.

As I once said in a previous blog, my schools had a nice system where we were kept too afraid of administration (and their spies) to cross the invisible line at school. They would expell you, right up to the beginning of the graduation ceremony. They made public examples of one or two people every year (HS class size of 200 students a class). That “fear” is missing in today’s schools.

No one hit a teacher and survived. People were expelled for cursing a teacher.

By Velatra

July 10, 2006 03:51 PM | Link to this

Question, SET. In those “female headed households” that you referred to, are you including those where the father was present but had died? What about those where the fathers are in the military and are serving somewhere overseas?

I know of many “female headed households” that have produced intelligent, productive students, just like I know of many “male headed households” that produced kids who were discipline problems and/or academically inferior. I had at least three spawns of the “male headed households” in my classroom this year. Praise God for the summers off!!!

By SET

July 10, 2006 04:04 PM | Link to this

Jim D: The duty to report a crime you see is called “Misprison of a Felony” (supposing the crime is a felony?). California does not have such a crime on it’s books currently. Other states & the Feds might. I think the modern trend is to repeal that statute.

Here you have the right to walk on, ignoring drowning people in swimming pools and bank robberies in progress and have a Latte at Starbucks.

That is, unless you have some other duty to act such as a relationship to the victim or being a mandated reporter such as a teacher.

CA is real big on teaching it’s citizens that they are responsible for nothing in their communities.

Now if you prevent others from calling for help or reporting, provide a false alibi, or clean up the bullet casings (& help dispose of the bodies), you will have committed a felony yourself. Kids do this and can’t believe they’re in trouble. They’re not trained to understand the criminality of accompanying others on crime sprees either (I didn’t do anything! I was just there).

Accomplice liability and all the other vicarious liabilities for criminal acts are not taught in school - when the kids need the info the most. But that would involve teaching responsibility - and the current realthink is that kids have none!!

By Lola

July 10, 2006 04:08 PM | Link to this

By moving my family to East Cobb, I eliminated the need to worry about violent schools, and can now concentrate on deciding where to send my daughter based on academics only. Yes, I’m sure there are the occassional incidents, but overall the children in these schools (Mabry, Hightower) are there to learn and not to see who can look and behave most like a criminal. In addition, most families are not single-mother run, and therefore offer their children a very good foundation and environment condusive to learning and getting a good education.

By SET

July 10, 2006 04:16 PM | Link to this

Velatra: I speak in general terms not absolutes. Generally, divorced mothers can’t control their daughters well, much less their sons.

There are always exceptions. I went to school with Irish Nuns who I now realize were probably 110 pounds who could (easily) intimidate the local police officers, the parents, the priests and anyone else.

The fact that we all know someone who this doesn’t apply to changes nothing. Get a school with a significant number of single mother parents and you are going to have discipline problems with their sons. Are the teachers to blame because that school has stats that are worse than schools largely populated with intact families? No.

My point is that which was made over a year ago (in a memo to fellow teachers) by Scott Phelps at the Paseda School district for which he was suspended (check internet for the news stories). Teachers should not be held accountable and punished by pay differentials, etc. when changing demographics retard the school’s performance.

Whenever I see these annual stats on testing scores and discipline or whatever put up without accompanying analysis on what population shifts are involved I’m concerned that the stats will be used to attack the teachers. I have issues with teachers, but fair is fair.

By kb

July 10, 2006 04:20 PM | Link to this

Of coarse the numbers are under-reported - if for no reason other than the numbers reflect only those incidents which were “caught”. If you apply the roach theory to this (each one indicates about 100 others hiding or “not caught” in this case) you can only imagine how high the numbers might really be.

Just how far do our schools have to deteriorate before some parents decide to put their children’s future before their own lifestyles they wish to maintain and find an alternative source of education? Government schools will never work without reform - that means putting kids first - not people with personal agendas in positions of influence. Privatization/vouchers would take care of this. But too many of the self-interested (at your own child’s expense) will continue to fight it - so what you see is what your going to continue to get! Only on its current track, it looks like it will only continue to erode.

By alice

July 10, 2006 04:24 PM | Link to this

Anybody think that DeKalb is underreporting? If so, isn’t that scary?

By SET

July 10, 2006 04:37 PM | Link to this

Velatra:

Military families are in many ways an anomaly on stats. Remember, the US military ruthlessly uses IQ tests to block the bottom third or so of the population from joining. Any school populated by military families is already pre-screened by IQ to keep out the dull. That’s wht you will see racial anomalies on standardized tests results - higher scoring minority clusters that turn out to be schools populated with military families, etc.

So a family with Daddy gone to Iraq and the mother left behind is not an “average” family in any way, they are pre-screened to eliminate dummies. It may not seem so to you at first glance because the children may dress the same as the average kid.

As I’ve said before - dull children, especially males, are more likely to use aggression as a coping mechanism. That’s why their teachers have more drama to deal with. Mothers who reproduce with a series of men who have no committment to them or their children tend to be dull and have dull children - as IQ is largely genetic. It’s a spiral of mothers begetting kids they can’t control who go on to do the same.

The real fun is when Psychopathy starts to emerge. The experts I deal with say that current research says it’s inheirited and passed down the line. A primary biological imperative of Phychopathy is to reproduce - they are highly promiscuious with both the women and the men abandoning the children. The best book on growing up in a family of Phychopaths is “Shot through the heart” by Gillmore - who’s mother and father were apparently psychopaths and who’s brother was the notorious killer Gary Gillmore.

All these people were once primary and secondary school children. If you are a teacher who gets some of these kids… Good luck. They cannot be changed or fixed. They are quite dangerous even as 4 year olds. There are some things normal kids won’t do, like stab an annoying peer in the eye with a pencil.

By Janine

July 10, 2006 04:42 PM | Link to this

It has been my experience [and a lengthy one it is ] that the administrations of local schools as well as superintendents and their lackies are so afraid of law suits by parents that they attempt to avoid disciplinary action for anything short of bringing a firearm to school and/or actually using it.

By SET

July 10, 2006 04:45 PM | Link to this

SP… Psychopathy! Psychopath! typos. Sorry!

By Laf

July 10, 2006 04:55 PM | Link to this

effective teachers want refer minor discipline problem to administrators. Many teachers want to deal with their own discipline problems. This shows the students who is boss. You mess with me in my classroom you deal with me—-not the guy down the hall. Also a little positive techniques of discipline may help. Refer to (www.pbis.org)

By kb

July 10, 2006 05:05 PM | Link to this

Janine,

That’s a good point - and it’s likely a good part of the problem. So much reform is needed in our society to get a handle on it. A “loser pays” legal system would put an end to a lot of the legal threatening!

By SET

July 10, 2006 05:07 PM | Link to this

Another book every teacher in a discipline-issue school should read is “Bad Boys-Bad Men” By Donald Black and Lindon Larsen as well as “Without Conscience” by Robert Hare.

The first is a “Where are they now” case study of men who were diagnosed in late adolescence 20 or more years ago with Anti-Social Personality Disorder. Let’s just say they didn’t age well. The 2nd book well covers the psychopathic child and how dangerous they are even when they aren’t violent.

Again My point is that if the teacher or school gets saddled with some of these kids you will be in an extremely unsafe working environment until you quit or get that kid out of the campus. They may be bright, and the most dangerous ones are. These people are why it is essential that the school be ready, willing and able to expel people. If they are not, then the presence of just one or two of these kids can keep the place in an uproar and the staff on the verge of a nervous breakdown.

You are more likely to encounter these kids in a lower class school than an upper class one. As this is thought to be genetic, they often come from a line of mental patients and prison inmates (and the child will often not know his own geneology). Those families don’t wind up in good schools.

By Velatra

July 10, 2006 05:10 PM | Link to this

Well, SET. Thanks for your very verbose explanations. I’m not trying to be catty, but please do me a favor in the near future and make your comments more concise. Like some of my students, I have the attention span of a gnat, especially when it only takes a few words to explain what someone means or how they feel.

That said, I guess I disagree with your generalized statements. To me, they were more like sweeping statements. There is a difference between the two.

By SET

July 10, 2006 05:25 PM | Link to this

Thanks, Velatra, sorry about the verbosity - will try harder!

I don’t think I’m working on feelings as much as the research. My points are about policy. I want the public schools to change. NCLB is going to force change. It’s a setup written to facilitate the next move. I can’t see which way things will go yet. I must say I seriously distrust the bona fides of the Federal Congress and Executive Branch. And if they need a fall guy it might be the teachers.

By SET

July 10, 2006 05:42 PM | Link to this

KB:

A loser pays legal system would also give power to the rich who could then intimidate the poor from trying to enforce anything against them. The rich can easily afford to lose while the worker would be forced into bankruptcy if any lawsuit goes wrong.

I’d agree that some steps in that direction Combined with raising Small Claims limits to $10,000 adjusted for inflation might help.

The biggest opponents of raising small claims limits are the entrenched powers - banks, medical providers, insurance companies, stores, etc who don’t want small claims court used against them.

Litigation needs to be faster and more efficient (fewer jury trials - proctored discovery) The litigation costs are often more than the awards.

By Velatra

July 10, 2006 05:47 PM | Link to this

Thanks, SET. Trust me, we are already the “fall guys”. The sad part is in the elementary arena, the homeroom teachers are shouldering a lot of mess. For example, if a student is receiving special education services from another teacher, the student’s test scores (which, in my most cases, are failing scores) are recorded under the homeroom teacher’s name. Thank, NCLB!!!

By kb

July 10, 2006 05:54 PM | Link to this

Right now, in many regards, it’s a “rich pays” legal system. Mass abuses on corporations include an absolute flooding of “nuisance suits” that are often cheaper to settle - no matter how frivolous the claim, than to fight. When corporations are cornered by these legal tactics, they are forced to enact strict and often nonsensical rules and guidelines that are imposed upon all of us. In the case of our school system, as you can see, the administrators are scared to look sideways at Johnny-brat for fear of having to undergo the expense of fighting and most likely settling a nuisance suit.

I don’t agree with refraining from reform just incase a suit “goes wrong”. I still believe in loser pays!

By SET

July 10, 2006 06:11 PM | Link to this

KB - You may be right.

But you assume the school administrators don’t really want to keep the misbehaving students. I think they are using the litigation thing as a cover. I’m in litigation. When a school district wants to crush a family or a teacher - they can.

The schools exist the way they are because that’s what the school board wants. Look at what they do not what they say.

By SpEd Teacher

July 10, 2006 06:30 PM | Link to this

I am in Clayton Co and I know the results posted for my school are NOT correct. Students do what they want, dress code is not enforced, and administrators side with students. It is a joke and is just one of the reasons for such high turn over of teachers and other staff at CCPS

Did you know that last school year 2/3 of all CCPS teachers had less than 5 years total teaching experience? That is part of the problem too. Yet, that is who the BOE gave the big pay raise to. Thank goodness for CCEA-GAE.

By Family in West Cobb

July 10, 2006 06:30 PM | Link to this

My daughters tell me many fights go on with no adult intervention in their West Cobb school. There are parts of school kids learned to stay away from to avoid becoming a victim.

I was told teachers have been told to solve problems in the class room and don’t bring them to the office. So conflicts rarely get reported.

Our school supertintendent more or less admitted he did not believe principals were forthright in their self assessments or self reporting.

Maybe the AJC can follow up with a student survey and ask….have you witnessed or been a victim of harassment, intimidation, threats for sexual or physical violence ?

Compare the kids to the adults for reporting purposes.

By kb

July 10, 2006 06:31 PM | Link to this

Agreed :-)

By SET

July 10, 2006 06:50 PM | Link to this

If there is a problem with a school district operating in an unsafe manner - the public, the parents, the students and/or the teachers can complain to the local Civil Grand Jury. At least in CA the Civil Grand Jury serves as the “watchdog” of government and can hold hearings and force testimony about anything they want to involving the operations of local government agencies. Upon the conclusion of their inquiry they can publish a public report of their findings (which can cite dates, places and names of who did what).

Every year the local Grand Jury decides who or what to investigate based on complaints and information received from anywhere. Complaints can be passed down from year to year so that they may investigate the county jail one year, the county hospital the next and go after the schools when it’s their turn…

If things are really getting out of control you might want to start writing complaint letters to them.

By Concerned teacher

July 11, 2006 08:31 AM | Link to this

To family in West Cobb: Students in an overcrowded atmosphere are at an extreme disadvantage, especially in older buildings with narrow halls. Discipline problems can be rampant. Additionally, the opportunity to even eat, much less unwind, can be nonexistent in the cafeteria. I recently left such a teaching position. It seems the Cobb School Board has planned rather poorly for some areas of the county. I strongly urge parents to visit their local schools, attempt to absorb the stress level and general environment, and “Make some noise!” if it is unacceptable. I voted with my feet!

By Concerned teacher

July 11, 2006 08:41 AM | Link to this

To Family in West Cobb: Overcrowding can have a major impact, especially in an older building with narrow halls. Discipline problems can be rampant. Class transitions are difficult and serious obstacles arise to eating, much less unwinding, in the cafeteria. I recently left this environment behind professionally and would not have accepted it for my own children. It seems the Cobb School Board planned rather poorly for some sections of the county. I don’t believe it would be tolerated in the Eastern half. Visit your local schools to determine if the stress level and general environment is conducive to learning. If not, “Make Some Noise”!

By Concerned teacher

July 11, 2006 08:53 AM | Link to this

Sorry for double post. When comments sent, page unavailable appears.

By holdingajc"accountable"

July 11, 2006 08:58 AM | Link to this

“FamilyInWestCobb” has a GREAT idea for the AJC. I would love to see the AJC do some surveys on discipline in the public schools.

Teacher Magazine had a survey awhile back; if I’m not mistaken, I think they said that a full ten percent of teachers had reported a physical assault upon themselves during their teaching careers.

The one unmistakable fact in all this is that school systems do NOT want to deal with this issue. The poster who mentioned the disruptions and outright disrespect was spot on, as was the poster who said that five percent of the students don’t have the right to ruin it for the rest of them.

Until we deal with discipline we don’t have “reform;” we have “facade”. Keep up the good work, and a big THANK YOU for quoting MACE. I know MACE is very concerned with confidentality (I know of one school where three teachers called on MACE due to administrative harassment and all three were transferred out by the principal that same year.) Still, Patti and Bridget get all the credit for giving MACE a chance and I would encourage MACE to give the AJC a chance and be a bit more forthcoming…IMHO

PS As big as discipline is, I would also encourage Patti do explore the topic of retaliation against teachers who bring up discipline problems; THAT is as big a problem as the lack of administrative support itself.

By Counting the Days

July 11, 2006 08:59 AM | Link to this

One of the 5 goals that my county had last year was “Make schools safer” which, by the way, is a wonderful goal. One of the ways that was decided to prove that our schools are “safer” is by lowering office referrals. On paper, that sounds wonderful, but in reality, that isn’t always a good thing.

This past year, there were numerous times when I observed students push, shove, curse, bite, and cause such mayhem that it would take 4 or 5 adults to separate them. Were they punished when they were taken to the office? No…instead, they were put in “time out” so they could cool down and reflect. That also sounds nice, but doesn’t always work with some middle school students as some of the same students would be exhibiting the same disruptive behavior within a few days.

I talked to my administrator about situations such as that and he was quite miserable, saying “his hands had been tied from above.” It’s always wonderful when those at the county office (who haven’t been in a classroom in years and who don’t realize how student culture has radically changed) pass down grandiose ideas without giving schools the tools that they need to really and truly implement them.

Discipline only truly works when someone understands how and why their behavior is inappropriate and takes steps to change that behavior. And, yes, punishment is a part of discipline. Unfortunately, when there are only 3 administrators in a building of 1200 students, there aren’t enough hours in a day to talk to numerous children about discipline and it falls by the wayside as well as punishment.

I do know that the vast majority of students will only do what they are allowed to do as far as school discipline. If little Bob disrupts class one day and doesn’t get punished, he will unconsciously say, “cool! I can do it again….and again…and again.” The central office employees in my system seem to have forgotten that.

By kb

July 11, 2006 09:15 AM | Link to this

The disciplinary issues we discuss are not all about Johnny Brat and his selfish, “my child is perfect” parents. Most of us writing to this post have relatively normal lives. So it’s difficult to consider that the public school system also caters to the children of the worst kind of human beings in this nation one can imagine - people you read about in the news every day - drug addicts, rapists, murderers, family abusers, etc. Their children are also mandated to attend school - with your children!

I feel very sorry for these kids and I think that the disciplinary issues they bring with them are often too complex for the school to deal with. And so you have chaos, in some cases, which is a detriment to all of the children. It’s really sad…

By holdingAJC"accountable"

July 11, 2006 09:23 AM | Link to this

Wanted to follow up with the “TeacherTeacher” post. If students witness administrators being abusive towards teachers, what message does that send the students?

Administrative abuse of teachers IS widespread. I’ve seen it first hand, as I brought up the lack of support for discipline at our school and promptly recieved an evaluation FULL of “NI’s” (needs improvement).

I was told I could not appeal the results of the evaluation, even though I felt it was done in retaliation for bringing up discipline problems in our school.

In case you think I’m just another teacher who doesn’t want to be “accountable” let me add that at the time of the so-called “evaluation” my students WEREN’T EVEN IN MY CLASSROOM! They were with ANOTHER teacher! (I was on a planning period.)

It’s actions like this that cause the need for MACE. They saved my career, and I thank them. I think teachers know that “TeacherTeacher’s” tale is credible; I hope others can see it as well. (And I’d love the AJC to report on it as well.)

PS If the poster who mentioned the PSC is reading, do they REALLY take action? I’ve heard their track record isn’t that great.

By catlady

July 11, 2006 09:45 AM | Link to this

In our rural school system, we seem to be cowed by the prospect of giving out appropriate punishment. We have lost several excellent administrators and teachers who have not been backed up by higher ups when trying to give consequences appropriate to the infraction. Our “discipline plan” is a joke—instead of addressing behavior problems seriously to start with, our administrator wants to “save” the serious consequences till the end of the year. I think if you give appropriate consequences initially, it will forestall later problems. We had an instance last year of an assault that the parents called the police about, and when the police came to the school the administrator told them it was an accident, that there was no assault. The offending student stayed in school to harrass and terrorize, even threatening a teacher. At that, he was moved to another room, to continue his work with a fresh group of students! This was a fifth grader with a discipline folder that should have been an inch thick for 3rd-5th grade assaults, harrassments, disruptions, etc. Of course, it was not an inch thick because a lot of the instances were buried. It happens every year.
Parents of students who want to learn, and teachers who want to teach, are very tired of this. But we must protect our school safety rating, instead of telling the truth and addressing the problems, instead of drawing a line and saying,”Once you come in the door, here are the required behaviors.” I think swift, immediate consequences that inconvenience the parents of the perpetrators (as the misbehavior inconveniences the students who are trying to learn) with EACH and EVERY occurence of the problem would see an immediate decline in the instances of misbehavior. Tell it like it is, and address it forcefully!

By Rick

July 11, 2006 10:02 AM | Link to this

I was harrassed by “elite” athletes in high school after turning them in for throwing food at other students, including myself and other friends.

The high school principal did nothing and did not want to discipline these athletes for “fear” of losing a basketball game. Eventually the athletes were emboldened and one of them beat me up in a bathroom. The principal did nothing after I implored him to call police and report this assault.

High school administrators are paid big money and do not do their jobs running the schools. Kids who intimidate other kids or disrupt classroom learning should be sent to one school in each county where enough security is hired to monitor these students closely.

High school administrators are the problem here because they will not stand up to parents of disruptive kids. This all comes at the expense of kids who want to be in school to learn.

We need a system more like those in some other countries. After 8th grade we should separate kids who excel in learning and send them to schools where they can reach their academic potential. The remaining kids should be taught basic academic and trade skills.

Our current system does not provide enough job related orientation to kids. I had to get a degree in Chemistry and work in the field before I realized it was not what I wanted to do for a living. I can only wish that I knew what chemists do day to day before I embarked on that degree.

By RWH

July 11, 2006 10:40 AM | Link to this

We send our children to school for the purpose of having teachers to teach them in the best professional manner they have. Our children are to be discipline before going to school; and the teachers will spend more time focusing on teaching rather than losing time disciplining children. Some situations are at home where parents cannot affectively discipline their children; thus, sending them off to school in hope a teacher can! In thousands of schools all accross america, to date, teachers are struggling, afraid to do what they need to do because we have people who think that they have the best child and that child can do no wrong, especially in a public school system, even private schools as well. Our discipline system (at home) must be raised to a higher standard, already, it has really cause a grave damage to our school system where “want-to-be” gangs and other so called trouble make roam! Om any given day, a police car or security officer(s) are summons because of discipline problems in our school system. It is time that parents be motivated and forced into the education arena; if their children are not discipline before entering the education system, they should not be granted an opportunity to attend school. Sad, but where do you start if not at home!

By Lisa B.

July 11, 2006 11:17 AM | Link to this

During a workshop a couple of summers ago, I met the superintendent of a small, west Georgia system. Test scores in his system had soared in a two-year time period and his lunch companions wanted to know how. The superintendent said the number one complaint of his teachers was lack of school discipline, so he made that the number one priority. Teachers were told to clearly state the rules, call parents on the first infraction, (of any kind)then send students to the office for the second infraction, where the child was dropped off with a parent or grandparent. For months, central office staff, and school administrators and the superintendent himself dropped misbehaving kids off to work places, bars, street corners, etc., to leave them with parents. Parents were told that when their children learned to behave, they could return to school. If upon returning to school, the children broke ANY rules, they were taken back to their parents. The superintendent said that attendance was horrible for awhile, and his teachers were afraid to shop locally, but after a few months, miraculously, nearly all discipline problems vanished! Amazingly, student achievement increased, and test scores shot through the roof. A few parents of hard-core disrupters got mad and moved away (probably to your system or mine). This was a very small school system. However, I teach in a very small school system as well, and our administrators are too afraid to send kids home. We may not make AYP. Humph.

By Lisa B.

July 11, 2006 11:26 AM | Link to this

Teachers and administrators in my elementary school have been assaulted by students without police notification. When schools report violent incidents to the police, there is the danger of the school earning the “Dangerous School” label with the problems THAT entails. Administrators evidently feel compelled to cover-up violent episodes, which of course, allows more violent episodes to occur. Alternative schools in Georgia are only funded for 6-12 grade students, and some elementary schools don’t even have ISS! We are simply stuck with these unruly, sometimes psychotic kids.

By holdingajc"accountable"

July 11, 2006 11:48 AM | Link to this

I just went to the website for the reelection of Kathy Cox to see what her platform said about discipline. And it said absolutely NOTHING.

But still this paper endorses her? Perhaps if the editors taught as substitutes they wouldn’t be so quick to put the blame on “incompetent teachers” OR be so willing to endorse a candidate who won’t even address discipline.

It’s no wonder Cox ignored the paper’s request to comply the Freedom of Information Act; discipline is out of control and yet we do nothing. Remember that the next time abysmally low SAT scores get reported.

By tim broton

July 11, 2006 11:57 AM | Link to this

I have been in education for over 20 years as an administrator and a teacher. Please don’t fool yourself to think that the higher powers to be don’t pressure admin of different schools to report in a worded way as to not place their school in a bad light. It is a fact and for any area superintendent to say other wise with a straight face would be a bad thing to do. This is all called cover your @$$. The bottom line is again that the parents aren’t EVEN mentioned in the article as to what is wrong with the kids and their behavior…. until there is a way to address this part of the problem…. it will NEVER change! wow.. that feels better already. t

By SNY

July 11, 2006 12:34 PM | Link to this

Okay, it seems obvious to all of us that some parents just don’t care. So, the question is - what do we do with these particular children who act a straight fool in school? I guess I first have to ask, is it illegal to have the school officer take these kids someplace else, such as home or to juvenile detention center for their parents to pick them up? If it isn’t, why can’t something like that happen in all counties?

If the school puts some of these kids in the detention centers, maybe some of them will be scared straight.

BTW, alot of the teachers are mentioning angry parents, are they so angry that they are not even listening to the school administrators or are they disputing what the school says happened? Some parents may come across angry when in fact, they may just be mad at their kid for acting a nut in school and it shows on their faces and in their demeanor. Could that be a possibility? Probably just wishful thinking on my part.

By Lisa B.

July 11, 2006 12:59 PM | Link to this

SNY, The problem is that the school officer would have to make a report in order to remove the student. I think the student may actually have to be arrested. At any rate, when the law enforcement officer makes a report, that report makes the school look bad, and too many reports cause the school to earn the “Dangerous School” label. With regard to angry parents, some parents blame the teacher and the school for their child’s behavior. I’ve seen parents become unglued because the teacher supposedly antagonized their child. The elementary child went balistic when he had to miss PE to make up missing homework assignments. Some parents don’t believe their children should suffer any consequences for their actions. I never raise my voice at students, never speak to them in a derrogatory fashion, but firmly believe in consequences for misbehavior. Because corporal punishment in no longer condoned in my school system, we have no ISS and suspension is a last resort option, consequences usually consist of phone calls to parents and loss of priveges. A disruptive student may miss PE, be removed from his group in class, or sit alone at lunch. As a teacher, I often feel my hands are tied. The consequences I mentioned seem insignificant when applied to infractions like theft, bullying, instigating fights, lying, disrespect to adults, and refusal to comply to classroom rules.

I have been reading this blog for months, but haven’t normally said much. I’ve been very chatty today! I appreciate the varied comments from everyone. I read this blog to learn about different opinions and to gain insight. This is a great blog!

By Denise Hecht

July 11, 2006 01:03 PM | Link to this

The problem of discipline is not necessarily due to a neighborhood or the teachers but how it is handled by the administration, the school district and the parents. Don’t forget “it takes a village” phrase. Many schools are guilty of selectively reporting disciplinary infractions. I, myself, made an administration unhappy by getting involved in a theft that took place; speaking with the SRO myself and forcing the incident to be reported to the police, thus ending up in court, once the thief was caught. This is not an isolated incident nor limited to one district. We need to make sure things are reported consistently and if not, there needs to be consequences. That needs to begin at the state level: Hello Ms. Cox!!! The only way perhaps this can happen is by the involvement of the parents. The parents are or should be partners in education. Couch parents do us no good. Many times it is the parents that complain the most that have not set foot in their child’s school, know nothing about their curriculum, have never met their child(ren)’s teachers, principals nor attended a PTA/PTSA meeting. Stop blaming the teachers for everything; whether or not the school makes AYP, discipline problems, CRT scores. Look beyond the teachers. I have personally known of teachers who attempted to report displinary problems but were blocked from doing so depending on the situation. We all need to remember the chain of command and the teachers are at the bottom and do not make administrative decisions. Parents, help your schools. Be an involved partner!

By Denise Hecht

July 11, 2006 01:04 PM | Link to this

The problem of discipline is not necessarily due to a neighborhood or the teachers but how it is handled by the administration, the school district and the parents. Don’t forget “it takes a village” phrase. Many schools are guilty of selectively reporting disciplinary infractions. I, myself, made an administration unhappy by getting involved in a theft that took place; speaking with the SRO myself and forcing the incident to be reported to the police, thus ending up in court, once the thief was caught. This is not an isolated incident nor limited to one district. We need to make sure things are reported consistently and if not, there needs to be consequences. That needs to begin at the state level: Hello Ms. Cox!!! The only way perhaps this can happen is by the involvement of the parents. The parents are or should be partners in education. Couch parents do us no good. Many times it is the parents that complain the most that have not set foot in their child’s school, know nothing about their curriculum, have never met their child(ren)’s teachers, principals nor attended a PTA/PTSA meeting. Stop blaming the teachers for everything; whether or not the school makes AYP, discipline problems, CRT scores. Look beyond the teachers. I have personally known of teachers who attempted to report displinary problems but were blocked from doing so depending on the situation. We all need to remember the chain of command and the teachers are at the bottom and do not make administrative decisions. Parents, help your schools. Be an involved partner!

By jg

July 11, 2006 02:14 PM | Link to this

First of all - School Uniforms or an ENFORCED dress code K-12….Johnny Brown lost his credibility in DeKalb when he would not enforce that one!

We spend every year going over the discipline handbook and the penalties for each incident. Perhaps if every school offered a mandatory diversity/anger management class these kids could learn to resolve conflict in a better manner.

My child let the “he said she said” get the best of her last year and spent time being suspended - she made a choice as to her reaction and paid the penalty.

So what is your choice? If someone hits you are you going to hit back and risk being suspended for self-defense?

I would also suggest be very aware of some predators posing as security guards in the middle/high schools. That is another one of the secrets in the schools that is kept quiet.

By Concerned teacher

July 11, 2006 02:27 PM | Link to this

In my county, it also takes an Act of Congress to get a student sent to the Alternative School. I have often wondered what their Mission Statement is because it seems to be, “We take pride in refusing all students.” Why are these schools not being fully utilized? Is it also a matter of system image propaganda? And after finally surviving the lengthy rigamarole to get a criminally disruptive student placed, our teachers are harrassessed to constantly provide lesson plans and materials for these students. They are usually only at school to flash some cash and barter some wares with no pretense of doing any classwork. School Boards need to be held accountable for allowing these students to remain in regular schools.

By Teacher 2

July 11, 2006 02:31 PM | Link to this

I have been a public school teacher for many years now. I agree with all the afore mentioned comments, and more. We are in the midst of over due drastic change. Unfortunately it seems none of the three major players; the federal government, the local school systems, and the families, are speaking the same language.

The government said “What you are doing isn’t working, straighten up and do better, but do it on your existing budget!” The school systems said” We have no clue what the world ouside school is like, and we don’t see any problems.” The parents said ” What do you expect me to do with my kid while I am at work. That is what you get paid for, you deal with him/her.”

I found myself at odds also with a contradiction of messages. No Child Left Behind directs all students to a college curriculum. I agree that all children should have sufficient education to go to college if they so choose. However, in doing so we devalue labor positions. I can speak only of our middle school, but we preached college even to immigrant children who had no legal hope of ever attending college in this country. When those children asked how they would pay for college, or how to go, our system turned a deaf ear. About seventh grade they realize that there is no path to college for them, and begin to feel like they are wasting their time. I did not put my own children through school to cut up chickens, dig ditches, build houses or pour cement. Yet, if that is what they chose, then why not honor that? Someone has to provide these much needed services. Can’t we find some kind of middle ground?

In the past there was a path for children who did not want to go to college. Yes, many of them dropped out. Now we force children who adamantly hate school to stay, and they become horrible discipline problems which no one wants to discuss. I do not have an answer to that problem. Thoughts?

It is much like the Asian proverb of the blind men and the elephant. Everyone has little bit right, but no one sees the whole picture. There has been a growing movement to privatize the education system, just like health care. Healthcare workers are accountable to many people, and still do a decent job of providing adequate services. I am still reading on that one.

Just some thoughts… Yes, adminstrators are overworked and highly pressured. So, why not replace them with a rotating governing board of teachers? Give the teachers a little extra time and money to deal with the issues, and see what happens. Divide the administrative pay among those serving. Everyone in the school, including parapros and custodians, take a turn on a rotating panel. Everyone buys in, or leaves. We certainly have enough schools in Georgia to do a few magnet or charter schools and give it a try.

It is not impossible to bully a group, but it is much more difficult than bullying a handful of principals. Have you looked at what administrators are paid? Our principal left at 4:00 each day as the children left. Many adminstrative duties were delagated to faculty and staff, who handled them well, but received no credit or pay for them.

Second thought, encourage teachers and school system employees to gain work experience outside the school systems. There are no absolutes, but I have worked with many educators who went straight from high school to college, and college to teaching, without ever having flipped a burger or punched a time clock. They really have no concept of not being able to miss a day of work, regardless of legalities, or families who cannot run to the store on one day’s notice to buy school supplies. I found it really helps when I can identify with the parent’s situation. Again, I am not speaking of all school system employees. Equally, have teachers voluntarily punch a time clock for a year or so. Inform parents of the long hours teachers work to provide a quality education for their children. We all could communicate better.

Last, all school administrators- from the superintendent down, should be evaluated two or three times a year by their employees, co-workers and parents. (Not just once a year, and not just the main or head principal.) Though the comments should be submitted anonymously, the results shoud be made public. Teachers should also be assessed by a panel of co-workers as well as the administrators. Discipline should be handled by the people most affected, the teachers themselves. If a group of teachers decides that a child should be removed from the school there should be another place for that child to go without it being a negative reflection on the school’s attendance. (That comes under the guise of the school board.)

I am a big beliver in cameras in the classroom. I think that would be a real eye opener for everyone. If I am watched by a camera in the store and the traffic light, it certainly won’t offend me in the classroom.

I spent the last seven years working for a school that did not make AYP. I believe it is becasue we keep re-naming what we have always done, with the same adminsitrators at the helm. It is too easy to blame teachers who are at the absolute mercy, (or lack thereof), of administrators who dictate what is taught and how it is taught. There is no independence in the school system. If a teacher makes an enemy of administrator, his/her teaching career can be ruined. Our jobs should not hang on the personal opinion of one administrator. I have seen excellent teachers ruined out of retaliation by a resentful administrator. It is the unspoken rule, have no opinion-ever, and always say everything is fine.

I realize some of my thoughts are idealistic and perahps simplistic. I love the chidlren I teach, even the difficult ones. It saddens me when I hear people say that we are not there to love the kids. Our only mission is to achieve a particular score on a standardized test. I was blessed with parents and teachers who loved me. My teachers made me belive I could overcome poverty and change the world, and to to be good to other people if I wanted them to be good to me. I haven’t seen that on any of the tests I have administered. Sad, how the world has changed.

Kind feedback welcomed.

By SET

July 11, 2006 02:43 PM | Link to this

Teacher 2:

Great commentary. But the world hasn’t changed a bit. We have gotten older and more experienced and can better say the Emperor Has No Clothes than children can.

Children and young adults will be believe anything because they have no found of knowledge to use to recognize BS.

When it comes to education we were all better off in 1950.

By Teacher 2

July 11, 2006 02:46 PM | Link to this

Please forgive the typos, I can spell, I just don’t type well.

By em

July 11, 2006 02:57 PM | Link to this

It is one thing for the teachers and parents to comment on the sad state of discipline in education but when a student such as Rick becomes a victim due to abyssmal enforcement of school rules and regulations, then an administrator needs to at the very least be fired for dereliction of duty.

By Amen

July 11, 2006 03:17 PM | Link to this

Amen Teacher2! You tell it. My own mother is a teacher and she has never worked anywhere else. She has no clue about punching a timeclock or being told you can’t take time off. It would help if teachers got experience out in other forms of employment.

You are right about the administrators too. THEY get to leave campus for lunch. They get paid 80K a yr. I had a teacher friend who was knocked down in the hallway by a student because she had the audacity to gently touch his arm and suggest he come into her classroom. Nothing was done to the student b/c teacher touched him first. When her husband came up to the school to talk to the principal, he ran out the back door of his office to avoid a confrontation.

Administrators are running scared. Ever wonder why THEY left the classroom? B/c they couldn’t take the heat.

And all educational coursework in colleges is good for is to spout liberal crap that doesn’t apply to real teaching in a real classroom full of thugs.

I should know. I spent a year being ridiculed, cursed at, belittled and demeaned. Administration told me that “EVERY CHILD HAS A RIGHT TO A FREE AND EQUAL EDUCATION”

By SET

July 11, 2006 04:21 PM | Link to this

What I said about combat training applies doubly for teachers. Any kid who tries to knock you down should be hurt very quickly. There are ways of making it look relatively accidental.

If these are the working conditions you have to live under you really should find another job. No one should have to (work) live like this in this country.

By Ernest

July 11, 2006 04:21 PM | Link to this

IMO, everyone should have concerns with the data presented as is. I’m a firm believer that in analyzing data, it should provide the basis for asking better questions, not just providing answers. More questions should be asked regarding how each system reports the data and if there is a uniform standard in doing so across the state. We should also be interested in the percentage of students in the system that has X or more incidents in a school year (X of course being a consistent number i.e. 10).

I spoke with someone in the DeKalb office and while they were not proud of their number, they felt it accurately reflected the measure used in the article. For example, in DCSS, if a student is caught with knife, skipped class, cursed the teacher, then cursed an administrator, this would go in the books as 4 incidents. In other systems, this might only go in as 1, based on the most serious incident. As a result, it is possible the number of incidents reported for DeKalb could have been due to a smaller percentage of the overall student population.

When you look at it that way and combine it with the undertainty of how the data was reported for other systems, you have a better understanding of why standards are being asked for.

By catlady

July 12, 2006 12:53 PM | Link to this

At our school, I would guess a 1:20 ratio of incidents reported officially versus incidents actually being sent to the office. It is like there is a strong negative incentive at work. Teachers don’t send students on a whim. But, teachers don’t like being undermined, so they continue to struggle. Demanding that something be done does not work in our system! You can be labeled a whiner, or not a team player, or not interested in the best for the child. Forget about the other 25 in the class! If THEIR parents would complain, maybe misbehavior incidents would be taken seriously.

By SHERRY HOLLIS

July 18, 2006 03:46 PM | Link to this

I haven’t read all the comments here and don’t know if I’m repeating this. I don’t know the legalities of this, but i have read on another message board from a special ed teacher who stated that one of the stipulations of NCLB is that schools get more funds if their disclipline incidents are low. So schools ignore the bad behavior and let it continue. Some parents are wondering why so much bullying goes on and nothing is done about it. Even to the point of getting the police involved, and the school still ignores it. If this is true, it is ridiculous. Just one more reason that shows schools do not care for the children, only themselves.