Get Schooled

By ok

July 6, 2006 08:40 AM | Link to this

ADHD is a medical diagnosis. The system can’t give that diagnosis, however they can tell you that your child exhibits behaviors that are consistent with children who have been diagnosed with ADHD. It is up to your child’s medical doctor to give the official diagnosis. An SST file can stay open as long as requested. If the ADHD diagnosis is given by a doctor, the committee can meet to determine if your child should be placed on a 504 Plan (if he is academically affected by the diagnosis). You can always request another meeting to discuss your concerns.

By Leia

July 6, 2006 09:03 AM | Link to this

Only a doctor can make the determination that a child has ADD or ADHD. Teachers are not allowed to make this determination. We can, however, describe behaviors consistent with ADD or ADHD.

I think that it is important that parents take heed to the teachers’ observations and not immediately jump to the defensive. Understand that if a teacher calls for an SST on a student, it is because we have seen some disturbing behaviors for a period of time - not just one or two days.

I have personally called for an SST for a self-mutilating student, a student who was on drugs, and a depressed student. All of the parents were supportive of our observations and the students received the proper medical and psychiatric care.

I would suggest that this mother take a step back from the situation and consider that her child may actually have some behavior disorder. She should have the child tested by a physician, and not jump to the quick conclusion that the teacher just didn’t like her child, or was out to get her child. I’ve seen this happen, and ultimately - the child is the one who suffered unnecessarily. Keep in mind that until high school - the teachers spend more time during the daytime hours with your children than you do!

By tammy

July 6, 2006 09:07 AM | Link to this

OK is absolutely correct: schools cannot diagnose such things as ADD or ADHD. As far as possible medical problems such as ADHD goes, schools walk a fine line by even suggesting such a thing. There have been cases in the past where schools were held liable for medical bills due to recommendations such as “your child should be on ritalin” or other such statments.

By SNY

July 6, 2006 09:10 AM | Link to this

Well, what if the parent takes the child to the doctor and the doctor says that there is nothing wrong with the child, do we still believe the teachers or do we trust the child’s doctor? I think that teachers can be too quick to judge a child.

By Leia

July 6, 2006 09:10 AM | Link to this

One more thing for parents to keep in mind - teachers really don’t like to call for an SST because it is just one more thing for us to do, it is usually after school and lasts a long time (depending on severity of the case), generally results in a 504 plan or an IEP (which individualizes instruction for a student and gives teachers more work to do) and is potentially a very combative situation. We wouldn’t do this unless we genuinely thought that there was something seriously wrong with your child. We also don’t have the time nor the inclination to “pick on” one student!

Unfortunately, parents want communication with the teachers - but only when the news is good.

By Leia

July 6, 2006 09:16 AM | Link to this

Tammy is absolutely correct! Several years ago, a teacher at my school made the suggestion that a student should be put in Charter for a chemical dependency. Since the teacher made the suggestion, the school system was required to pay for the student’s 30-day in-patient stay at Charter!

By Karen

July 6, 2006 09:20 AM | Link to this

SNY - did you ever go to observe your child’s behavior, without your child knowing you were there? Sometimes, this is an eye-opener for the parents. They don’t believe the teacher until they see for themself that the child is off-task most of the time, can’t stay in their seats or causes a disruption in the classroom.

Maybe it was a maturity issue. Was your child younger than the other students in her class? Was there an event that happened to make your child crave attention at school? Sometimes kids will act out in school when there is a new baby in the house.

By Manny

July 6, 2006 09:31 AM | Link to this

When I was in school, there was no such thing as ADD. There were kids who were BAD though!

I have one here (my own!) who tried out for the role of class clown this year. After getting grounded and having his room stripped down to just the dresser and the bed - he’s had a definite change of heart!

Just consider for a moment that your child is not ALWAYS the precious, little darling you have at home! Admit it - doesn’t she work your nerves sometimes? Imagine if she wasn’t biologically linked to you! How cute would her “energetic” behavior be to you then?

Just food for thought.

By teach overseas

July 6, 2006 09:54 AM | Link to this

Just because your child may have ADHD- it does not automatically mean that they have to be drugged. If your doctor’s (or teachers’s) first suggestion is drugs- go to another doctor as fast as you can! There are many other options to try first such as diet, excercise, behavior modification, sleep and many other things.

While the teacher and admin cannot say with medical authority what is wrong with your child- they have enough experience to know that something is amiss - and that it is affecting the educational achievement of your child. Be open minded enough to at least explore the possibilites and that some changes in your home may have to met.

My first suggestion to parents is to eliminate soda, sports drinks and sweet tea from their child’s diet, keep TV to one hour a day and push bedtime one hour earlier. These small changes can make a huge difference in a child’s behavior.

By Kage

July 6, 2006 09:57 AM | Link to this

From post: In this case, the mother asked for help for her struggling child and was summoned to a Student Support Team meeting.

I think the SST process in general makes some parents uncomfortable and defensive. I may be reading into the above statement, but it sounds like this parent was at least uncomfortable with being called into an SST.

I don’t blame her. There’s a sentiment around schools that SSTs = something’s wrong. However, if I had been that teacher — having seen behaviors that concerned me and having a parent asking for help — I, too, would have called an SST.

The primary reason is that there are a few other people there who are going to strategize about what’s best for the child. More people = more ideas about what to try to help the child learn. Secondly, it’s a protection for me. I have to have documentation of what I’ve done to help a child.

As far as the ADHD ‘diagnosis’ goes, that’s another thing altogether. As others have said, teachers cannot diagnose. I would advise a parent to keep as open a mind as possible, listen to the teachers, but then follow your instincts. Be open to the idea that there may be something preventing your child from learning.

However, if you truly do not believe that this applies to your child, stand your ground. You are the best advocate for your child. Parents need to be told this. I have seen many parents feel pressured by an authority in SSTs. Though it was unintentional, sometimes it is inevitable.

So, stand your ground. You absolutely do not have to sign anything you don’t want to. If you do take your child to a doctor, make sure that the paperwork has not been pre-filled out by someone from the school. (Schools should send notes of what they are seeing, but should not fill out paperwork so that all a doctor has to do is sign.)

Also, you should know that an ADHD diagnosis does not mean that your child will go on medication. I’ve met many parents who know their child has a problem with attention, but they do not want their child medicated. Fine, I absolutely respect that. Medication is a personal, family decision. Kids can still receive accommodations regardless of whether or not they’re being medicated.

Finally, give the teacher the benefit of the doubt. We don’t call SSTs because we’re looking for an easy out - people seem to think we want a diagnosis and medication to make the child easier to deal with. That’s just not the case. SSTs are a pain for us to deal with - tons of paperwork, we have to document that we’ve tried all the new strategies we come up with, they’re usually scheduled at inconvenient times, require lots of follow ups, etc. Most teachers only call SSTs when they truly think they can help.

By Kage

July 6, 2006 09:59 AM | Link to this

From post: In this case, the mother asked for help for her struggling child and was summoned to a Student Support Team meeting.

I think the SST process in general makes some parents uncomfortable and defensive. I may be reading into the above statement, but it sounds like this parent was at least uncomfortable with being called into an SST.

I don’t blame her. There’s a sentiment around schools that SSTs = something’s wrong. However, if I had been that teacher — having seen behaviors that concerned me and having a parent asking for help — I, too, would have called an SST.

The primary reason is that there are a few other people there who are going to strategize about what’s best for the child. More people = more ideas about what to try to help the child learn. Secondly, it’s a protection for me. I have to have documentation of what I’ve done to help a child.

As far as the ADHD ‘diagnosis’ goes, that’s another thing altogether. As others have said, teachers cannot diagnose. I would advise a parent to keep as open a mind as possible, listen to the teachers, but then follow your instincts. Be open to the idea that there may be something preventing your child from learning.

However, if you truly do not believe that this applies to your child, stand your ground. You are the best advocate for your child. Parents need to be told this. I have seen many parents feel pressured by an authority in SSTs. Though it was unintentional, sometimes it is inevitable.

So, stand your ground. You absolutely do not have to sign anything you don’t want to. If you do take your child to a doctor, make sure that the paperwork has not been pre-filled out by someone from the school. (Schools should send notes of what they are seeing, but should not fill out paperwork so that all a doctor has to do is sign.)

Also, you should know that an ADHD diagnosis does not mean that your child will go on medication. I’ve met many parents who know their child has a problem with attention, but they do not want their child medicated. Fine, I absolutely respect that. Medication is a personal, family decision. Kids can still receive accommodations regardless of whether or not they’re being medicated.

Finally, give the teacher the benefit of the doubt. We don’t call SSTs because we’re looking for an easy out - people seem to think we want a diagnosis and medication to make the child easier to deal with. That’s just not the case. SSTs are a pain for us to deal with - tons of paperwork, we have to document that we’ve tried all the new strategies we come up with, they’re usually scheduled at inconvenient times, require lots of follow ups, etc. Most teachers only call SSTs when they truly think they can help.

By Kage

July 6, 2006 10:01 AM | Link to this

Sorry for double posting. It was long enough the first time!

By sharon

July 6, 2006 10:22 AM | Link to this

I agree with many of the responses above. Conducting an SST or IEP and implementing the agreed upon accommodations is more work for the teacher and the administration. After the initial meeting, there are also required follow-up, review of goals achieved, and future goal setting meetings. Acting in the student’s best interest is the only ethical reason to begin this process. With No Child Left Behind, teachers and administrators have a duty to discover which students are having difficulty and what should be done to help them. Sometimes, this means involving parents, nurses, school psychologists, etc in the SST/IEP process. This may make parents uncomfortable, because there are so many people in the room, but the purpose is to view the situation from various angles and develop comprehensive strategies to help the student. It’s sometimes hard for parents to accept that this kind of intervention might be necessary. But what’s worse, ignoring a child’s persistent difficulties to avoid angering a parent OR calling a meeting and sharing delicate information in order to prevent/avert student failure (behaviorially or academically)?

By thomas

July 6, 2006 11:11 AM | Link to this

In my experience as a teacher, I have encountered only about 4 cases of students suffering from severe ADHD. This were students who already on medication (except for 1). And when they were on their meds, they were totally different students. The student who was not diagnosed/on medication could barely function in the classroom. He could barely stay focused to work in a small group setting in the resource room.

With the exception of one, none of these students who had ADHD were special ed. And I believe that the student who was SPED may not have ever been placed had he received the proper diagnosis and treatment earlier.

This is to say that true ADHD (one that requires medication) is rare— despite all the hoopla and media attention. Discipline, parental support, and a structured classroom environment help reduce a lot of these “ADHD” behaviors in many students.

As for the SST, all schools do this when there is a student with a prolonged academic or behavioral problem. I worked in a school where about 15-20% of the student population had an SST. They have to do the documentation to show that they tried to help the student.

Historical Note- The Student Support Team came about because some people complained that schools were not doing enough to help children. The 1984 case of Marshall v. Georgia was about the claim that schools placed a disportionate number of African Americans in SPED. Hence, the creation of the SST See, we had school today after all. :)

Done correctly, the SST can help students with academic or behavioral difficulties. The SST is centered around using strategies to help struggling students. So it is a good thing.

By BlindHomer

July 6, 2006 12:15 PM | Link to this

Might want to try a standardized IQ test as well. There’s a fair chance this child is testing two years below grade level (if I remember the post correctly) despite good grades because she’s just not that bright, while the and good grades require little more than just showing up. Genetically, IQ tends to norm, which means most of the children of above average intelligence parents won’t be as smart as their parents. ADD and ADHD were invented to provide more socially acceptable explanations for this simple fact. The chances are much higher that she’s just a little below average than that she needs ritalin to be “normal”.

By Nel

July 6, 2006 01:33 PM | Link to this

What on earth is “borderline ADHA”? How old is the child? From experience they don’t suggest testing until about 6 or 7.

OK..teacher & school counselor said child exhibited sysptoms of ADD, system phychologist said child did not because child was exceptinally bright. Child was tested by child psychologist and diagnosed ADHD with the admoniton that intelligence had nothing to do with ADHD. Child is on meds only while in school to aid concentration, but never overly quiet with meds taking the “edge” off.

Other child guided to SST because of acting out in class, but very smart child. Later teacher suggested change of environment, after slight rocky year in a different environment, child continues to be straight A, problem free student.

Listen to the psychologist, make sure your child is not over-medicated to the point of being a zombie-like and lose their personality, and change meds if necessary. Too many parents allow their children to be zoned out because it makes life easier for everyone concerned.

Do what is BEST for our child, because being labeled a problem won’t help matters so the child should be independently tested by a child phychologist who specializes AD/ADHD.

By SNY

July 6, 2006 01:43 PM | Link to this

Actually,

I called for the SST and yes I did watch her behavior from afar without her knowing that I was there. I saw no problems. She was sitting down doing her work. She wasn’t the 1st one finished and that did bother her and take her off task for about 2 minutes. Just as I was about to walk in the class and readjust her attitude for her (I’m not mean, just strict) she refocused herself and got back on task. My husband and I watched her several times before I asked for the SST and we didn’t see any of the behaviors that the teacher was complaining about. We did see her acting like a 2nd grader sometimes but she is a full year younger than her classmates. I realize that is not the teachers problem, but give the kid a break. There were other kids in the class much more disruptive than mine (not an excuse for acting an a**, I know).

Karen,

To answer your question, yes my mother moved out and moved all the way to New Jersey. She had been living with us my daughters whole life. But I didn’t think that was a problem because she speaks with my mother every night before bed. Maybe I should have looked at that more carefully.

The reason I have my reservations is because even before school started, when I enrolled her, I got the cold shoulder bringing her into Gwinnett County from private school. They hadn’t even met my child and the teacher and the school were already telling me that there were going to be problems. They didn’t even give her a chance. I asked for the SST so that my husband and I could give them our take on what was going on and what we observed with our own two eyes. We didn’t think that they were being fair to our child because they didn’t approve of where she had started her education. They so much as told me that she didn’t get a good enough education from the other school before even meeting my child.

That would put any parent on alert. Don’t you think?

By Leia

July 6, 2006 01:59 PM | Link to this

SNY - what exactly did the school officials say to you to lead you to believe that they thought your daughter’s previous schooling experience was subpar? Did they look at writing samples from your child or look at standardized test scores?

I don’t pretend to know the situation, but, I do know that your child may have been put in this particular class because it was a lower level, and they may have wanted her to be among her peers. That one year age difference is HUGE!! It may not seem so to you, but, we can always tell!! I can even tell in high school which kids started in private school a year earlier. Those are the silliest, most immature kids in the 10th grade! But, the good news is - they eventually grow up!

Just because you saw that there were other disruptive kids in class doesn’t dismiss your own child’s behavior. You don’t know if the teacher had already contacted those parents as well. I know that you have nothing good to say about the teacher involved, but, she may have done you a favor by being proactive instead of being reactive.

By Karen

July 6, 2006 02:08 PM | Link to this

SNY - maybe the school had many previous bad experiences with students coming from that particular private school your daughter had attended. A friend of mine who teaches kindegarten cringes when she sees a particular Pre-K name on the child’s information sheet! She knows that overwhelmingly these children will come to her not knowing how to spell their names or identify different colors, etc.

By luvs2teach

July 6, 2006 02:09 PM | Link to this

First, I’ll start by echoing the sentiments of several others regarding SSTs - we (teachers) don’t call them unless we think there is a real problem, usually something behavioral or academic that’s been observed for awhile and doesn’t jibe with other factors of the child such as previous test scores. Usually it’s designed to open up a line of communication for all involved as well as brainstorm further actions and solutions.

We also have to be really careful about what we say, and not recommend or prescribe, because we do indeed open the system up to a liability for costs incurred.

ADHD is a problem because it is difficult to diagnose (and is probably over-diagnosed, particulary for boys) and not everyone (including doctors) is convinced that it is a true condition.

Many things can look like ADD/ADHD - a happy active child - an unhappy, acting-out child - a bright child who is bored - a low-level learner who is lost - a child much younger than his/her classmates with lower maturity - a child older than classmates trying to stir up some excitement - a child without enough sleep - a child with too much sugar - a child without enough structure - a child with too much structure - the list goes on and on.

Diagnosis is complicated, and involves more than a trip to the family physician or school counselor. It should also include a trip to a psychiatrist trained in ADD/ADHD where the child is involved in a battery of tests as well as repeated observations in different settings.

Two books I highly recommend (for parents AND teachers):

Driven to Distraction by Dr. Edward Hallowell

The Indigo Children by Lee Carroll

By luvs2teach

July 6, 2006 02:22 PM | Link to this

Note on “The Indigo Children” book - it’s a little weird and new-agey at times, and I don’t subscribe to all the author’s ideas, but I do think its value lies in looking at the kids we want to label ADHD in a different way.

By happygwinnettparent

July 6, 2006 02:26 PM | Link to this

SNY -

1) If you’ve already removed your child from GCPS, why are you asking about this now?

2) If the private school teacher would’ve made the same observations, would you denounce all private schools and all private school teachers everywhere?

3) If you had misgivings while trying to enroll your child in GCPS, why would you put her in there anyway?

By SNY

July 6, 2006 02:38 PM | Link to this

Again, I called for the SST.

The teacher and the school informed me that it was a terrible idea for me to put her in private school when she was too young to attend public school. They also claimed that she wouldn’t “fit-in” in their environment. My husband and I thought that they were referring to the public school atmosphere, but I don’t think that is what they were talking about.

Again, I already posted that just because other kids were acting like crazy people didn’t give my child the right to act the same way. But to me, it seems as if the teacher didn’t have any control over the class. Don’t get me wrong, the kids weren’t running around screaming like kindergardeners or something, but once one kid started to talk, they all did and it seemed to take her a long time to get them back on track. Of course my child would talk. I teach her all the time that you don’t have to answer every question some kid asks you in class but the nice person and open hearted person that is inside of her thinks that it will hurt their feelings. I finally had to inform her that it was either their feelings or her butt. (Again, not mean just strict).

Please reread my posts. I think that I tried everything possible to help this teacher. If she didn’t want to help herself there is nothing else that I could do.

BTW, at the beginning of the year, I told her that my daughter needed to keep work in front of her to stay out of trouble. Meaning, if you kept her busy until the next subject, you would see her blossom and sit and do her work like a 3rd grader. If not, sometimes yes she would act out like a 2nd grader. Her mind cannot be idle for a moment. I also informed her that if she needed me that I was only a phone call away. She would threaten my child that she would call me and then she wouldn’t. Once you do that with my child, you loose.

The 1st nine weeks, my child bought home a “F” in science. She had 1 test and 3 worksheets. Those were the only grades for a whole 9 week period. No social studies, just 4 grades for science. The teacher gave them a test in a style that my child had never seen before. She had the words on one side of the paper and the definitions on the other side. 1st she gave them a study guide like that. When she came home with it, I sent her upstairs to study, like always, and after awhile she said she was ready for me to test her. This is where the problem arose. My daughter studied the letters going down the page next to the definitions. She didn’t associate the word with the letter. She didn’t know that she had to. All of the tests that she had taken in private school were short answer. Not memorized or matched up. She had to actually understand what the word meant. She thought that she only had to remember which letter went in front of the definition. I didn’t think about the difference in the test styles. I felt horrible when she came home and failed the test. Now, the bottom portion of the test was short answer and she got all of them correct. Too bad for my child that was the only science test of the nine weeks. In her defense, she did earn an “A” in science and social studies the other 3 marking periods. I knew that she was going to go through a period of adjustment but I didn’t think that it would be that bad. Her teacher didn’t even care. She gave my daughter an oral test, from the advice of the school counselor, and she passed it without missing one question. But she wouldn’t change her grade. It is situations such as this one that anger me to no avail!!

By Grayson

July 6, 2006 02:51 PM | Link to this

Mommy, Mommy, turn the channel; I don’t want to watch the “SNY Show” again! They keep showing the same episode over and over again! Waaaaaaaah!

By happygwinnettparent

July 6, 2006 03:10 PM | Link to this

Patti said that you were “summoned” to an SST, and you say that you called for the meeting - which of these is accurate?

By Recently Retired

July 6, 2006 03:15 PM | Link to this

SST is a major pain. Few teachers want to deal with it. My past experience is that certain teachers avoid SST at all costs, to the point of glossing things over for a whole year. Then the poor teacher the next year gets the unhappy job of gathering documentation that isn’t there. That drags the process out even longer. In my system, a teacher had to start with her grade level team with suggestions of strategies that had to be carried out for six weeks. Then, if there wasn’t any improvement, the teacher met with the Instructional Lead Teacher who made further suggestions that the teacher was supposed to document before coming to the first SST meeting. At the first SST meeting the ILT would go over the screening and observation results that she had done. Then the child had to have a vision and hearing test. If the child failed either of those then the process stopped until the parent took the child for further hearing/vision testing. If the parent didn’t do that, the process was dead in the water. After the hearing and vision testing was done and any other testing/documentation the teacher was to do, the team met again. At this point the team, most importantly the school psychologist or principal, decided if the child should be referred on to special ed for testing. If not the teacher was to continue trying strategies. The entire process takes sometimes as much as a full year. Not a process to be entered into lightly. The one thing that most school systems don’t want parents to know is that they can bypass some of the process with these simple words. “I want to make a direct parent referrel to special education.” Most parents will say, “I want my child tested to see if something is wrong.” That gets you sent to SST.

By SNY

July 6, 2006 03:27 PM | Link to this

I asked for it when the AP said that we could all sit down together and talk. When she first suggested it I didn’t know that it was called a SST. I just thought that we were having a conference. I didn’t know until the school pyschologist and the counselor was there that it was called a SST.

So, I guess I called it.

By happygwinnettparent

July 6, 2006 03:35 PM | Link to this

OH, OK - That makes sense now. I have never heard of a parent calling for an SST! SST is. What happens is the parent wants a conference and the school wants to cover all its bases and schedules an SST.

By SNY

July 6, 2006 04:00 PM | Link to this

From the way everyone is discribing it, I never would have asked for all of those people to be in a meeting with me and my husband. We felt like this was something that we could handle between us, the teacher and the AP or the principal. It wasn’t until reading these answers that I knew what went into an SST.

By SNY's husband

July 6, 2006 04:09 PM | Link to this

Grayson,

I’m sorry if my wife coming on a teachers blog is a problem for you. If you don’t want to help, then log off. She sent Patti an email hoping she would get some help from people who claim to care about children. Even if you don’t care for my wife and the things she feels strongly about, be professional and help. It isn’t about my wife. It’s about our daughter. For the record, I wasn’t happy with the school system either. In order to get any answers out of them, I had to call the school or go up to the school. They tend to handle dealing with the husbands in a totally different manner.

My wife didn’t have to twist my arm for me to allow her to go back to work so that we could remove our daughter from this school. Although I did try to get her to go for a permissive transfer within the county.

Happy,

In answer to your questions:

1.My wife really appreciates the opinions of the people on this blog, even if she doesn’t show it. So any advice that comes from this blog she will heed and listen to.

2.It wasn’t what the public school said so much as it was about the way they treated my daughter and us. If the private school acted in this manner, yes we would remove her from that atmosphere as well.

3.We finally decided to put our daughter in the school because it was the neighborhood school and because my wife wanted to be ASAHM for our son. We couldn’t afford private school without her working. Trust me, we feel bad enough about the decision without the harsh words.

My wife may come off as mean and evil to teachers but that is only because of what we went through this year. She also blames herself. She thinks that she didn’t do enough and you people aren’t making it any easier for her.

By Patti Ghezzi

July 6, 2006 04:24 PM | Link to this

Hi all,

I’m trying to stay out of the discussion and let it unfold, but I did want to say a bit about why I posted SNY’s question. I don’t think her situation is an anomaly.

I get calls all the time during the school year about similar situations that seem to come down to an impasse between the school administration and the parent. I see this as a HUGE problem in public education. Once the administration and the parents start butting antlers - regardless of which party is at fault - I don’t see the situation improving for the child.

What I’m hoping for is less of a dissection of the specifics of SNY’s situation and more advice for parents and teachers on how to get beyond the deadlock.

Thanks!

Patti

By lynn d

July 6, 2006 05:08 PM | Link to this

Patti

First, I think parents have to start with an open mind. There could be a problem. I am parent not a teacher and I see among my fellow parents a frigtening amount of denial about a child’s behavior. And these are educated, should know better parents.

Second, I think that the parent needs to understand how their child learns. There is a book, How Your (MY?) Child is Smart, that really is a good read and may help people better understand what their kids need.

With the proliferation of business school degrees as opposed to liberal arts, far fewer people take psychology classes and even far fewer take child psychology classes. It would be nice to have a basic understanding of child development.

Finally, while expensive, if your insurance won’t cover it, parents can always get a private evaluation done. In fact, I almost always recommend that parents have this done before the system does an eval. The special ed program in this state (and really the country) is pretty broken. I don’t trust school evals to find everything that is going on or they find behaviorial when there is something else going on.

Teachers cannot diagnosis ADD or ADHD.

By lynn d

July 6, 2006 05:12 PM | Link to this

Also, teachers need to admit that there are lemons among them. I have seen first hand a few teachers who had really poor classroom management skills. It happens, like every other profession, there are a few bad apples. Unlike many other professions, they are given numerous chances to improve. Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn’t.

By Leia

July 6, 2006 05:20 PM | Link to this

SNY’s Husband - this is off-topic, but, indulge me! Some of my favorite conferences are those in which the mother sends the “big, bad father” to handle business because she thinks that the Dad will make more headway. WRONG!! Usually, the fathers start off by trying to be mean-looking and demanding - until I totally disarm them! Long story short - Mom probably should have handled it herself!

By happygwinnettparent

July 6, 2006 05:29 PM | Link to this

SNY and husband - you justify your wife’s hostile behavior toward public school teachers by saying that it was because you had a bad experience with one teacher.

So, using your logic - is it fathomable that this teacher might have treated your child badly (in your opinion) because she had a bad experience with a parent last year? Of course not! So, don’t visit your hostility on every Gwinnett county teacher! I’m sorry that you haven’t had the awesome teachers that my children have had. And no - they are NOT perfect children! When the teachers contacted me about problems - I BELIEVED THEM AND ACTED ACCORDINGLY! I did not for one minute think that the teacher randomly picked on my child for no good reason!

I believe that you (the parents) are the main cause of friction between the teacher and your child. I just hope that you don’t have an odd last name and that your son may be forced to attend that school! I wouldn’t want your son to reap what you’ve sown.

By Grayson

July 6, 2006 05:45 PM | Link to this

SNY’s “Husband” - So, I’m supposed to be scared because she got her husband to blog for her??!! Whatever!

I’m just sick of your wife bad-mouthing all Gwinnett County teachers because she had a self-inflicted bad experience. Everyday for the past few months we’ve had to hear her story - ENOUGH ALREADY, WE GET IT!

You’ve already taken Precious out of public school - let it go!

By OldSchool

July 6, 2006 06:18 PM | Link to this

I’ve gone back and re-read SNY’s posts as well as some others. In my very own humble opinion, she is frustrated and we aren’t being very helpful.

Grayson, I don’t know you and you don’t know me. What we seem to share is a desire to be heard so we post on this and possibly other blogs. It is unfortunate that the typed word conveys emotion only if we bold or capitalize because I honestly think that if we could all “hear” the nuances in each post, we’d likely get a completely different take on what the writer is saying and HOW it is being said.

I don’t have a problem with SNY because I believe she is truly seeking answers. Maybe if we offered suggestions instead of vitriole, she could find the help she and her child need. Quite frankly, some of the bloggers who slam others sound like some of the parents I’ve had to deal with through my 32 year career.

SNY, please know that not all of us teachers are terrible classroom managers or poor planners. I applaud your involvement in your daughter’s education. I truly believe that one day your daughter will be taught by that one teacher who will connect with her and will change her world. The effect will be a lasting one. Both my daughters had teachers who were amazing and teachers who were horrible. My job was to supplement and equalize because that’s what happens beyond the school walls. As career women, they now run into all types of people in the working world and are quite well prepared to handle them. So bad experiences can be learning experiences. I just hope you and your daughter get to enjoy far more happy ones than bad.

By Ted

July 6, 2006 06:26 PM | Link to this

Quick ADHD question since it appears that many of you are knowledgeable in this area: Will ADHD meds change a student’s behavior who isn’t truly ADHD? Just seems that if it works then that eliminates a lot of the guesswork on the part of parents who wonder if they have a correct diagnosis. On topic, I think there would be a lot less parent-teacher-administration head-butting going on if schools made expectations very clear. Expecations currently vary from teacher to teacher in the same grade level(!), school to school in the same district, and even from day to day from the same district employees. It appears that very little is not a grey area in the schools today and without some clearly defined boundaries schools can’t expect to be taken seriously, much less respected. I realize that with children we want to say they are all different, they all have individual needs. This is obviously true, but like SET says, public school isn’t Burger King. Public schools need to set up some rules and expectations and mean them, giving parents who want to know where to turn a simple option: private school. Your child acts up, flunks, etc. for WHATEVER reason, there should be a consistent way to deal with it. This worked in our country’s past and it is working in the educational systems of other countries. Keep it simple and avoid the all the fuss.

By Dana

July 6, 2006 06:57 PM | Link to this

Ted, the medication only seems to work if the student genuinely has ADD/ADHD. A student who takes the medication and doesn’t have this problem will, at best, not be helped, and at worst, be harmed by taking the medication. My daughter takes medication for ADD, and one of the ways doctors diagnose it is to see if the condition responds to medication. The other way involved psychological testing that the school district could pay for, although I’m unclear on the details. The testing costs thousands and isn’t covered by most insurance plans (at least not by mine!). I hope that helps.

By SNY

July 7, 2006 08:41 AM | Link to this

I left work after my last post and I had no idea that my husband was even online. Although I have to say that it felt to have him say on the blog what he says to me whenever I bring it up.

I honestly do not mean to bash all public school teachers. Heck, I went to public school. But this is my child we are talking about. Everyone on this blog who has children should understand that I only want to do what is right by my children.

Happy,

My son will never step foot in a Gwinnett County school. That is why I am back at work. To pay for private school. For the record, I asked for Patti’s help because I was hoping that you teachers would give me good advice, instead you clobbered me.

Okay, I still did get great advice from some people. For that I thank you.

Leia, my husband has been involved from step and day one. He feels the same way as I do. I didn’t send him in to be the big bad wolf. Trust me no one is afraid of my husband. He is the nicest person in the world and he is so sweet. He is actually the reason why I am so nice about this whole situation.

Lynn d,

I don’t think that teachers believe that they have bad apples in the bunch. They are like parents, we all want to believe that because we care so much, everyone else does as well. But that just isn’t the case.

Anyway, for the people who tried to help, thank you. For the people that didn’t, oh well.

By Nja

July 7, 2006 09:16 AM | Link to this

OldSchool- Very well said.

SNY- Stop explaining yourself (not the situation with your daughter) to people. Ask what you want. Take the information you feel is valuable and discard the rest.

By Zoe

July 7, 2006 09:51 AM | Link to this

The SST (Student Support Team) is used by the school system to document problems and suggestions for what the school views as problem children. I am a teacher, I have been to several of these meetings- many times they are used as a step to have a child tested for or placed in a special education program. Unfortunately, SNY’s problem is not unique. The nephew of one of my friends (he is also a teacher) was SST’ed at the end of the year. There had been friction with the student, teacher and parent all year. I can understand the frustration the part of the teacher- he IS ADHD and is on medication for it. He drives me crazy and I often only spend an hour or two with him at a time. However, that does not excuse the behavior of this teacher. At the end of the year, this teacher refused to let this student use the restroom (after he asked three times) and wound up wetting himself in the classroom. When I heard this, I was appalled. Apparently since the student has difficulty sitting still, this was part of what the teacher felt was a “lesson.” The culmination of this was, when the parent went into school to discuss the problem with the teacher and principal, she was “surprise SST’ed.” Often, schools take advantage of parents not understanding the process of what an SST does. When I was told about this SST, I hit the roof. I regard this family as an extension of my own. My friend had stayed out of the fray since he is trying to move up in the county and didn’t want any friction to affect his job status. He knew I would tell his sister the truth about SSTs and just how much the school had tried to screw over her son. SSTs are paperwork to back up whatever the school/teacher did. It is their way of justifying however a child was dealt with, even if it was wrong.

*Also, my two cents- SNY, I’ve been following your saga these past few months, I did not know that your child was a full year younger than the others in her classroom. This can make a huge difference in her behavior compared to others in her class. I teach 9th grade. This past year I had a student that was a full two years younger than others in her class, gifted, bright and unfortunately the maturity of a typical 7th grader. She was 12 when she started high school last August. I did not know how young she was until months had passed- the school system had her as a year older. Once I found out, it explained a lot about her behavior. However, she was still expected to behave like a 9th grader since she was a 9th grader. While knowing her age gave me insight into her behavior, it didn’t excuse her from expectations. I do not doubt your child is a good kid, I am sure she is. However, that year or possibly even two year difference (Ga parents like to hold back their boys to make them big strong football players) can be very evident in the classroom.

By thomas

July 7, 2006 09:53 AM | Link to this

After reading more responses to this topic, I understand what the problem is now. This is really not about ADHD. It is about a conflict between parent and school.

Like I said before, real, severe (to the point where people at the school suggest that a child has it) ADHD is uncommon. The people at the school have to (or from what I now hear, had) do an SST in this kind of situation.

What we have here is this— a parent who is distrustful of the school her child is in to begin with is told that her child is talking in class (a typical descriptor/behavior). After several more phone calls or notes, the parent is further irritated. She “observes her child/the class” to see for herself “what the problem is.” Finally her daughter gets an F in science. All the while the mother looks for reasons to blame the teacher, principal, bus driver, janitor, media specialist, PE teacher, cafeteria workers, county office personel, school board members, the school building itself, the computers at the school, computer software, God, Jesus, you, me, and everybody else on Earth and off, past and present as to why her daughter did not have the perfect experience at the school and was not a perfect student.

What I don’t understand is why when she was told her daughter is talking in class and off task why she didn’t support the teacher and work to rectify the situation. Second if you have been working with your child at home like a good, involved parent is supposed to, this whole situation with this test would not have happen. Here we are treated to a long story about a test that was the result of a third grader not studying at home and staying abreast of what is required in class. At this point mom, dad, and child should be on top of things.

All of this should be a valuable lesson to all of us. School is not a passive endeavor. It requires students and parents to be part of the program. Not coming in the door hateful of the system (school, teachers, etc). Not looking for excuses and blame.

Most of the time, those students who are highly successful in school, come from home where there is reinforcement of the school system and values. PARENTS WO

By Leia

July 7, 2006 09:56 AM | Link to this

SNY - I was merely addressing the comment by your husband that states:In order to get any answers out of them, I had to call the school or go up to the school. They tend to handle dealing with the husbands in a totally different manner.

This makes it seems that he thinks that men get better or different results. I was just letting you know the reality - in my experiences.

By thomas

July 7, 2006 10:01 AM | Link to this

OOPS,

Here the rest of what I was trying to said:

WORK WITH THEIR KIDS AT HOME. This is for both private and public schools. Finally, when I read that SNY told the teacher to call her if there was a problem. I knew there was a problem right there. The expectation was that the school was going to do all the work (and more importantly, if something went wrong, someone could say *”I didn’t know, no one told me, I wasn’t notified.” Typical excuses. I have seen it before).

This situation SNY had should have never come to this. Situations like this should never happen. More than likely this girl does not have ADHD and this SST and all this drama could have been avoided.

By happygwinnettparent

July 7, 2006 10:12 AM | Link to this

Thomas - AMEN!!!!!!!

By Jeff

July 7, 2006 10:28 AM | Link to this

Thomas:

happy gwinnett’s post says it all!

By SNY

July 7, 2006 10:45 AM | Link to this

Thomas,

Thank you for your comments.

By Question

July 7, 2006 12:03 PM | Link to this

I’m a new substitute and I hear the word SST a lot. Could somebody please tell me what is an SST? What is actually done at an SST step by step and what does it accomplish?

Thanks

By Vicki

July 7, 2006 12:25 PM | Link to this

Question - Try a Google search for “Student Support Team”. This has information for GADOE and other local school systems with explanations. I don’t want to give you inaccurate information, but you can read all about SSTs. Hope this helps with your questions.

By Competitive

July 7, 2006 12:41 PM | Link to this

Question,

I don’t know about other schools, but at mine an SST is all about CYA. We are told to SST every student who is at-risk of failing. Because of standardized testing, etc., my 7th grade homeroom usually has about 20 students who have to be SSTd (in the end, usually only 4 or 5 fail any parts of the Gateway, CRCT, whatever).

Basically, here is the deal. The teacher calls for an SST because the student has poor grades in one or more subjects. If a student is making failing grades, they are at-risk of failing the Gateway, so they have to be SSTd (at our school, at least). The parents are invited, and all who show up sit down with our SST coordinator. The teachers describe the student’s performance in class, then the parent discusses any issues they wish. The SST Coor. then tells the parent the child is at-risk of failing and explains the requirements for promotion. Usually, the kid is just not doing work and/or not studying, so we discuss ways we can achieve this as our implementation plan. Everyone signs, we go our separate ways, and the kid still doesn’t do their work (usually). The kid then passes Gateway, etc. (the problem was laziness not intelligence), is promoted to 8th grade, and we all wasted our time. Take that situation and consider we do it 80 to 100 times in a year (4 person team).

I estimate that 1 out of 10 SSTs changes the student’s achievement in school. Also, 1 out of 20 results in testing for special services. Out of those 4 or 5 kids, 1 or 2 will be a “slow learner,” which is Georgia’s way of saying you can’t qualify for special education because you are poor at both Math and Language and don’t have any medical reasons for it. Therefore, you get no help.

This may give you some insight into why I can’t stand SSTs.

By SET

July 7, 2006 01:04 PM | Link to this

I just noticed Lynn D’s comment about some parents being in denial about a child’s behavior:

It’s not just in a school setting that this happens. In the courtroom we get adolescents who are now 18 and in adult court. The mental health problems are so great now we have a full time “crazy court” to deal with the Bi-Polars, Schitzos, Fetal Alcohol Syndrome and retarded (drug baby) defendants. But before people get into that court they go through the regular criminal courts.

Sometimes we see young people where we know from our experience that something is (mentally) wrong - and is likely to get worse without attention. Just try telling that to Mommy. The fathers as a rule are non-existant. The mothers sometimes accompany these younger defendants & victims and try to explain or rationalize away whatever happened.

You try to tell Mommy that the kid is headed for being dead if something isn’t done - they don’t want to hear it. They are more interested in believing that everything is somebody else’s fault or that it didn’t happen.

By the way, the same thing occurs when you are dealing with the family of the victims. You can see from experience that some victims are working real hard at being a victim. (Serial victims, for example, they are back several times a year) One might observe that if the victim doesn’t change or go into rehab or whatever he/she/it will end up dead or nearly dead. They don’t want to hear it. It’s much more fun to maintain that everything is someone else’s doing.

So it’s not just in a school setting that this behavior shows up, you probably see it first there. Probably some of the same people I’m referring to.

What I’ve found is that rather than trying to give complete and complex warnings it’s better to just try to get one concept through their skulls - like be sure to maintain health insurance (you’re going to need it). Many families refuse to realize that Sonny and Cher can’t be covered on Mommy’s policy after 19 when they won’t or can’t stay in school. Although the insurance company on her policy will take her money - when the kid gets really hurt the Ins Co will demand proof of student status (post-claims underwriting) then cut off coverage when the family doesn’t have it - so they should get a cheap individual policy not requiring student status that Mommy can make the payments on while the kids keep getting into trouble.

On occasion we will discuss about how cheap life insurance is at this age and that it would be a real good investment for a particular family - at least good burial insurance. Even the most hardheaded people are real receptive to possibly turning a financial profit on a situation - or advice on gambling odds & taxes.

This may sound cold but if the Mother is saying she can’t control him/her and what can she do (stop enabling)? I do mention insurance.

Brave New World!

By WFC

July 10, 2006 10:00 AM | Link to this

This has been a fascinating thread! As a thirty-year high-school educator (public teacher= 20, public administrator=4, private teacher=6) I’ve seen this “how do we help kids experiencing problems” from several perspectives. Here’s what I’ve learned:

By jim d

July 10, 2006 10:18 AM | Link to this

SNY,

The fact of the matter remains that the only way to get passed a dead lock with a public school system is to give in to their wishes.

They hold all the cards and are used to having things their way. And will.

The only real alternative is to remove the child from the public school arena and place them in a private school. Once you have done that it becomes highly probable that the child can be returned to public schools after a couple of years and school officials will have forgotten the incident.

Other than that One must play by their rules.

Best of luck!

By B.S.

July 10, 2006 10:55 AM | Link to this

SNY,

Teach your kid to fight back. I worked in a school where kids who were assaulted, routinely received 10 days oss. I mean kids who laid on the floor and covered up while being beat, where also punished. Our administration made no attempt to figure out blame or responsibility and there was no benefit to not fighting back.

And Kittycat, it’s your responsibility to make time for your child. Do you ask a pedatrician to stay late or work on Saturday, because you can’t get off from work? He should expect this right?

Your completely passing the buck here on the responsibilit for your child.

Teacher’s don’t have to be on call 24/7 or accommodate every need of every parent. In fact, one of the things I disliked most about teaching was the idea that you had 180 people who thought they were your boss.

By Kage

July 10, 2006 10:56 AM | Link to this

WFC’s comments were perfect - especially pt. 2.

I find the different reasons schools call SSTs interesting.

Below are the reasons I’ve initiated/been called to SSTs in the past year. (Side note: SST stands for Student Support Team, technically it’s a noun. It’s also used as a verb , as in ‘I SST’d him in October.’)

By MrLiberty

July 11, 2006 12:09 PM | Link to this

Where do you go?

A private school or homeschool. Your kid does not have a problem. The school system has the problem and is blaming your child.

Get you kid out ASAP before they do any more harm to him/her. That you asked about alternatives already shows that you care more than they ever will. All they are looking for is a chemical solution to a “problem” that may or may not really exist. Likely you kid is just bored (along with most of his/her classmates).

If you do not act quickly, or allow them to chemically destroy your child’s creativity, enthusiasm for life, intellect, and everything else Ritalin destroys, you will regret it for the rest of your life.

Homeschooling is the right answer for everyone, but especially for you and your child.

By ann

July 11, 2006 02:01 PM | Link to this

While there are wonderful home schooling programs, it is not beneficial nor practical for every child. If a child’s distress is due to underlying emotional/behavioral or learning disabilities, home schooling will not just make them go away.

A few years ago we had a child withdrawn from our school to do home schooling as the mother blamed the school/teachers for her child’s academic difficulties and did not want her “labeled”. Two years later she re-enrolled her child. The child of course struggled with the same learning disability, but was now extremely behind her peers. The mother had done what she thought was best for her child at the time she began home schooling. We all do what we think is best for our children. The correct path is not always clear and there is no one correct way for all.

By SET

July 11, 2006 02:35 PM | Link to this

Mr. Liberty:

Do you deny that there are kids in the public schools that require meds to function? Is it your position that no kid should be on psychotrophic meds?

Ann:

One thing I touched on earlier is that mentally ill children in my experience often have a mentally ill parent or grandparent. Throughout the last half of 20th Century we have seen an increase in “assortive mating” where like pairs up with like, rather than a more random paring. On occasion you may see that not only is the child disturbed, but the parent is pathological also. In recent times it seems the age of onset of some disorders is getting younger. Is that because of the increased pairing of disordered family lines?

I’m talking about the serious disorders such as Bi-Polar disorder or schizophrenia and morbid substence dependence.

The personality disorders such as Borderline Personality Disorder in the parent increase the liklihood of the child developing a disorder. While these are not common problems I believe you will find them to be more common in the public school than the $10K a year private schools. The personality disorders do not seem to be as deadly as the major psych Dxs but even they (personality disorders) do have their own mortality tables - and risks of institutionalization.

If the kid is in real psych trouble you may have to also deal with a disordered parent. Not Fun.