Get Schooled

By Patti Ghezzi

June 28, 2006 02:40 PM | Link to this

Here are some comments on the earlier thread from Robert and another avid Get Schooled reader and teacher, Leia:

“We cannot really take summers off because if we really do (spend time as WE chose), then we will not have the required hours to renew our certification and we will be out of a job!

And, for those teachers that you mention that teach summer school or do other summer jobs, do you really think that is how they would “chose” to spend their summer if it was really a choice? The answer is no. They do those things because they need the money - teaching alone doesn’t pay sufficiently.

Simply stating that teachers have the summer “off” really does imply the wrong idea.”

By Leia June 28, 2006 02:34 PM | Link to this “Patti - Technically, our contracts do not specify exactly what day we report to work. But, it does say, “The employee agrees to participate in the local school in-service program and other staff development programs designed for professional growth, also those necessary to meet Southern Association Accreditation requirements.”

That translates to: If your department chair tells you that you will attend a specific workshop during the summer, you are obligated to do so. It is not necessarily our choice of how we spend our summers. I have yet to not have to attend SOMETHING during the summer!”

By Robert

June 28, 2006 02:50 PM | Link to this

How about this?

During the summers, teachers have additional responsibilities that may include duties other than formal teaching in a classroom. These responsibilities may or may not be directly linked to the profession of education, but it is likely that they are linked. In any case, there is rarely, if ever, a complete season of summer where a teacher has nothing at all to do (ie: a summer “off”).

By call me crazy but...

June 28, 2006 03:07 PM | Link to this

As an educator, Patti is exactly right….we have the summer off. I choose to take my required staff developments and EdD coursework during the school year, so that I may do whatever I please during the summer months that I have OFF. My contract doesn’t require me to be at work during the summer break, so that means I’m off. If they require me to attend a staff development during the summer, I am compensated (DeKalb). Teachers have the summer off. Some choose to fill their summers with SD and coursework. I choose to devote that time to my children and family; so I put in extra effort during the school year to complete other requirements.

By Laf

June 28, 2006 03:09 PM | Link to this

months. We are paid only for the 190 days that we work. When we are going to the local college to take course for certification we are not being paid. Why do we work at the Handy-Pantry during the summer? Because we are not being paid for all those glorious summer days. We may get a paycheck during the summer but those pay checks are only for those 190 days that we worked. Seems like you rich corporate guys would pay enough taxes where we could have school year around. Then we would not have to live in poverty because of being unemployed during the summer months, Christmas Holidays, and all those other days that we end up laying around the pool because we are unemployed.

By Thomas

June 28, 2006 03:21 PM | Link to this

Technically teachers do not have summers off. Teachers, like other people who work in education, are salaried employees. It is just that when school is not in session, the need to have personel physically report to a work location is limited. The work of teachers involves working with people (children). Without children, there is little need to go to school (although some school systems do everything they can to force teachers to report to the building— whether they are need or not).

Personally, I work during the summer. I take Professional Development Classes (without pay), I plan for the upcoming school year, and I spend several days before preplanning starts setting up my classroom. I am able to do much work now, so that when school starts I am better able to effectively teach and manage on a daily basis.

I believe that our system of education needs to move from an old agricultural model of school (from August to June) to year round school. You can still have breaks during the summer, but also breaks throughout the year. I like the idea of having 6 week semesters, with a week off in between. School is extremely grinding on a daily basis. Both students and teachers burn-out from this tremendous grind.

Teachers also use this time to replenish and rejuvenate from 10 months, 190+ days, 10 hours a day of non-stop work. During the school year I work an average of 9-10 hours a day, 50 hours a week, including another 6-10 hours a week at home performing my job. There have been many, many, many days where I have come to work at 7:20 in the morning and left at 6:00, 6:30, 7:00 in the evening. It is the most time, energy, and money consuming job I have every had. I need any breaks I can get.

By Jeff

June 28, 2006 03:22 PM | Link to this

I’m first year, unsure of everythingI have to do for my certification due to its weird circumstances. Even I am planning during my summer.

Bottom line: I don’t know about other teachers, but I can NEVER escape the title “teacher”. Yes, my FOCUS might be somewhere else, but at the end of the day I am STILL a teacher, and my job responsibilities STILL sit heavily upon my shoulders. (Heck, read my posts here over the summer!)

By Kage

June 28, 2006 03:23 PM | Link to this

Double-posting! This topic opened while I was composing my diatribe. :) Thought I’d repost in the proper place.

Hate to add to the ‘myth’, but I am enjoying a fantastic summer off. Truthfully, I think there’s a lot more ‘summer’ in our summers than some like to admit. I also think there’s a lot more work in our summers than non-teachers are aware of.

Last summer, I taught a college course to pre-service teachers, attended a weeklong math course at my expense, and worked on redesigning the ELA curriculum for our district. In addition, I planned most days of the week, moved my classroom, and collaborated with my team weekly. I took a one week vacation. Definitely a summer ‘on’.

This summer is a different story. I did one week of professional development, for which I received a nice stipend as well as PLU credit. I moved my classroom (again). I haven’t been able to set up my new room because the carpets haven’t been cleaned yet, so I’ll have to go in a week early to do that. Otherwise, I’m enjoying lots of time off. I’ve traveled out of the country and will travel out of the state soon. I hike daily, kayak down the river weekly. I’m reading up a storm. I’m enjoying nature photography after nine months of my camera being used only for and by schoolkids.

There are definitely elements of schoolwork: I read professional books as well as books for pleasure. The ratio is delightfully inverted from the school year - (school year is usually 5 prof bks to 1 pleasure book). The thing is, I enjoy reading professional books, too. I love sitting on my deck with a bowl of cherries, my iPod, and a book about elementary math instruction. I’m also planning integrated units and writing grants - all from my deck. If I had a pool, I’d be lounging by that to do my planning.

I do know teachers (definitely seasoned veterans) who lock up on the last day of post-planning and don’t open the door again until pre-planning. I’m glad that I have the experience of being around them. It reminds me that my time off is my own and I choose how to spend it. If I want to do a lot of planning, great. The year goes much more smoothly that way. But it is a choice.

By OldSchool

June 28, 2006 03:28 PM | Link to this

How I’m Spending My Summer “Vacation” by OldSchool

I’ve been rewriting my curriculum in preparation for spending the next school year getting my Engineering Drawing program Industry Certified. Many of the hoops I’ll be jumping through are much like the National Board Certification except that the only financial incentive is a grant to upgrade my lab a bit. There is not one thin dime in it for me in spite of the long extra hours I’ve already spent and the additional ones I face.

I also have a weeklong CTAE conference to attend in Atlanta and an area technical college to visit. Then I’ll update our articulation agreement and requirements. For fun there will be 180 days of lesson plans to revise for my beginning technical and architectural students (traditional and AutoCAD), my beginning and advanced Inventor students, and some alternate plans for my special needs students.

I’m getting new textbooks so all my reading assignments and quizzes will need modifying and that will mean exams and other major tests will too. My audio/visual library must be updated so I’ll review dvds and videos and make decisions.

In my spare time I’ll mull over the several job offers I’ve gotten and work on a few house plans. The plans bring in much needed funds for our SkillsUSA club (I work for donations) so maybe I’ll do those before mulling.

I’ve been called back to school several times to update campus maps and print out posters for the new school year so I feel like I haven’t left. It sure is nice to walk down a hallway without getting my vocabulary enriched with colorful language that would make a sailor blush.

I’m actually looking forward to the new school year. My 6:30 a.m. to 4:30 p.m. days will be filled with important stuff: monthly meetings (general faculty, dept. chair, CTAE dept, T&I, ad hoc committees, NHS council, special called, etc.); visits to other Eng Drw programs; evaluating/purchasing new equipment; curriculum rewrites; fulfilling misc. requests by the administration for charts, posters, and signs; troubleshooting problems with aging computers and new software; teaching; answering the phone for my technology wing (yeah, I know…); and dealing with many the issues that have been blogged to death this little blogjam in the best way I know.

But first I’m gonna have another cuppa coffee.

By happy because it's true!

June 28, 2006 04:01 PM | Link to this

Yep, it’s true! I am a teacher and I am off all summer! It is a great job and I am so happy to have full days to spend with my own children. Teaching is a hard job, so I am happy and grateful for these weeks to relax and renew. Honestly, I don’t know what all of these other teachers gripe about. In most systems, you do have many weeks off. You can choose to pursue an advanced degree or take staff development (professional learning) during the summer. I already have my Specialist degree, and I generally can meet my requirements to renew during the school year. So yes, I am “off”! If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it must be…a duck!

By Chad

June 28, 2006 04:16 PM | Link to this

Who cares? You picked your profession just like I picked mine, and you have to do what you have to do. I mean no disrespect, I’m not a good enough person to dedicate myself to that sort of thing I don’t think, but just the same it is what it is.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

June 28, 2006 04:20 PM | Link to this

Honestly, who cares. I hope you all have a great summer.

By Janine

June 28, 2006 04:33 PM | Link to this

As others here have said….a teacher’s contract is for 190-91 days. That is what a teacher is required to work. Anything beyond that is at your own descretion. THe system cannot force you to attend anything during the summer. You do have to get 10 hours of staff development every 5 YEARS in order to be recertified, but that is easily done during the school year. The system will often offer stipends to entice teachers to attend staff development in the summer, but no one has to. If you want to get advanced degrees after you begin teaching, that is also your choice. Teachers indeed have summers off. THE MYTH IS THAT THEY ARE PAID WHEN THEY DON’T WORK…WHEN THEY ABSOLUTELY ARE NOT.THE SALARY IS FOR 190 DAYS OF WORK….DIVIDED INTO 12 PAYMENTS

By E. Lewis

June 28, 2006 04:39 PM | Link to this

I got out of the teaching profession in part because of all the time I would have to spend during the summers teaching summer school, attending professional conferences and taking STATE MANDATED postgraduate courses. Add that on to those 60 hour work weeks during the normal school year and all the $$$ for classroom supplies that came out of my pocket never to be reimbursed by the school district.

I was a high school math teacher. The experience of an elementary educator might be easier.

By SNY

June 28, 2006 04:42 PM | Link to this

Teachers do deserve time off. Think about it. Parents we can take a long weekend off and have someone watch our kids during the school year. Teachers can’t do that. (Can they?) Let them have a few weeks to get over the parents like me who can sometimes come across as b**ches when they get upset about their children. I know that I can become more than a little loud and upset when it comes to my child. People in all professions need time off. Teachers just need to remember that they picked this profession. It is just like when I was in the Army, it was my job to go to war and defend this country. Did I like it - no. But I had to do it. I joined the Army and no one made me do it. Teachers, when you have to go to training during the summer, don’t get mad. Just go. You decided to be a teacher. It is a profession that requires constant learning. Is it fun, probably not but you chose it. And before any of you scream and holler at me, I am in the accounting field. No one does more extra classes and learning than we do. Especially those of us who do taxes.

Going home now. Good night.

By E. Lewis

June 28, 2006 04:42 PM | Link to this

Then there is the experience of a friend of mine who struggled for a lot longer than I did. She taught in a school district that used to officially fire non-tenured teachers at the end of the school year to balance the budget. All such teachers could reapply in the fall, but they had better kept up with all their require summer courses and certifications.

No 3 month summer vacation there either.

By Terry

June 28, 2006 04:51 PM | Link to this

There used to be three good things about being a teacher: June, July, and August. However, the longer school calendar plus increased certification requirements have shorten that. Also if you coach a fall sport, you usually start practice before school starts.

However, I would NOT do anything else. Those who can, TEACH. Those who can’t go into some less significant line of work.

By Leia

June 28, 2006 04:52 PM | Link to this

Thank goodness - SNY the “blog-rat” has left the building!

Get over yourself. You said, “No one does more extra classes and learning than we do. Especially those of us who do taxes.” Whatever!

By Me

June 28, 2006 05:00 PM | Link to this

Leia - I can’t stop laughing!!

Teachers enjoy your short break if you have one!

By Alex

June 28, 2006 05:04 PM | Link to this

I’m not a teacher but I have friends who are teachers and yes, one works another job during the summer, and another is pursuing her Masters. They both complain about their salary which is human nature…do I….But…. I wish I had the time in the summer to work another job to supplement my income, or to take continuing Ed. classes.

By elementaryhistoryteacher

June 28, 2006 05:12 PM | Link to this

I believe that most informed people today realize we are not paid for doing as we wish during the summer. They realize our pay for 180 days is divided into 12 equal payments. What gets my dander up is when I hear an uninformed person using my summmer off as a reason why members of my profession don’t deserve a raise or respect.

By Jmarsh

June 28, 2006 05:32 PM | Link to this

Well, I think not. I live with a teacher; after a week of post school year cleanup, she’s spending a lot of time working out and relaxing. She is quite accomplished, up on a bunch of certifications (that she got during the school year), etc.

The problem most teachers have is poor time management. They live in “panic” mode, most of the time unjustified, that leaves them feeling like they can’t accomplish things while school is in session. It can be done, but most teaching programs don’t instill a great set of these skills in their graduates.

Many, many people can work full time jobs year round, attend undergrad or graduate school, etc. If you have a week long conference during the year, you use vacation if it’s important enough for your development. Buckle down, make it happen, it’s that simple.

By another teacher

June 28, 2006 05:44 PM | Link to this

I posted this in another topic, before Patti opened this one, but I’ll say it again:

We need to stop saying that teachers have “summers off” and use the term “furlogh.” Truly that’s what happens to us.

By another teacher

June 28, 2006 05:45 PM | Link to this

Oops, better correct my typo before the spelling/grammar police get me. The word is furlough.

Oh, and that last post about most teachers having poor time management: hahahahahahaha

By a fellow teacher

June 28, 2006 06:18 PM | Link to this

Forget about what the public says. The truth is we get the summer off because our’s is a 10 month contract. We are really unemployed during the summer months. We get two summer checks simply because our pay is extended over twelve months. And for the record, teachers don’t get “paid” for the summer. We already earned the money. We can do whatever we want during the summer.

By Nja

June 28, 2006 06:18 PM | Link to this

Part of the summer I travel and the other part I used to relax and do absolutely nothing. All professional development I do during the school year.

By Time management? What's that?

June 28, 2006 06:55 PM | Link to this

I don’t know about other systems, but in the system where I work as a middle school teacher, I only have a 70 minute planning period a day and no duty-free lunch. Planning is usually taken up by mandatory meetings. I am talking aboutstaff meetings, grade-level meetings, content-area meetings, team meetings, parent conferences that parents often don’t show up for until the students come back from connections. Let’s also not forget taking care of disciplinary actions for inappropriate behaviors, SSTs for students who have some kind of problem, and calling parents because their children are not in school that day. If a teacher actuallycan do all this and still has the audacity to say that it’s a “time-management” issue, I just want to know one thing - what rich school does she work at where the PTO has does all this for her?

As a math teacher, I have assignments that must be graded as quickly as possible. Students have a right to know how they have done. But some of those little shortcuts that we all remember teachers taking when we were in school are now considered “no-no’s.” BTW, time management in the classroom is more than emphasized in college and by administrators. Otherwise, students will not cover all the standards that are required of them now.

Of course, my own children treat their own teachers better because they know what I do.

Just remember, if you think that teachers are nothing than overpaid babysitters, you deserve what you get - overworked, highly-qualified teachers (the highly-qualified teachers are overworked) that burn out and leave for better states.

By mom3boys

June 28, 2006 07:07 PM | Link to this

Part of why I teach is to have the summer off. Some people choose to do many staff dev. classes, as the stipends attached add up quickly. I am taking two classes that are two days each, so for 4 days I get $300. I am also working on my masters degree this summer. That costs me about $850 a class. Many states pay for advanced degrees, GA does not. This arguing about who is working longer or harder is nuts…sounds like I’m back at school and it’s the reg. ed teachers vs. sped teachers vs. connections teachers. Egads…enough already…wait…I gotta get back to the pool…the cabana boy has my margarita.

By abc

June 29, 2006 09:29 AM | Link to this

Of course teachers have summers off. Maintenance of certification doesn’t take more than a couple of classes every few years, and the classes can be quite trivial, such as learning Powerpoint or other simple PC applications.

By Evers

June 29, 2006 09:40 AM | Link to this

I do concur in some ways with the person who responded that we do not have the summers off. First, I concur because since we do not make as much as other professionals, we must increase our degrees to at least compete salary wise. However, we do have the pleasure of either enjoying our summers or not. All in all I enjoy teaching and most of the people I know are in teaching for just that reason. Sounds silly does’nt it. I know. However, most of you other professionals are professionals because of us. Take a moment to think about.

By dan

June 29, 2006 09:44 AM | Link to this

My wife and I are both teachers and we enjoy our summers. We lay by the pool, go on trips, and relax. We do this because we feel we deserve it because we both teach balls to the wall for 190 days out of the year. We get our certification stuff done during the school year. Summer off wasn’t why I chose this profession but it is an added benefit. When somebody says that we have an easy job and grips about us getting our summers off “Paid” my wife and I laugh to ourselves. We kid that the person is just jealous. Teaching is not for everybody but the people that it is for have a sweet deal. Teachers, sit back and enjoy your summers and your weekends and work hard for the 190 days we teach.

By Cherry

June 29, 2006 10:09 AM | Link to this

I’m not a teacher, but I do work for a local school system as a support staff member. I know that many of the professionals do enjoy having their summers off so that they can rest and recoup and get prepared for the coming school year. Whether they take classes or go on vacations to spend needed time with their families is their business. I say thanks to these people who work so hard so that our children can get a good education. To all of you teachers and others such as school psychologists, counselors and social workers, enjoy your summer and stay safe.

By jim d

June 29, 2006 10:56 AM | Link to this

Evers,

Now there’s a myth I’m tired of hearing! “we do not make as much as other professionals,”

Hogwash,

Teachers work about 1,300 hours per year, while the rest of us work about 1,900 in the same calendar period. So, to account for that discrepancy, we have to multiply their compensation by a factor of 1900/1300 (= 1.46) to make a meaningful comparison possible. If we take the average teacher pay of $45,000 and apply the adjusting factor, we get $65,000, far more than the average American earns in a year.This, of course, does not consider the much better-than-average fringe benefits teacher typically have included in their compensation package.

With all due respect. Please peddle that trash elsewhere.

By MA

June 29, 2006 11:04 AM | Link to this

There is an easy way to settle this. Get in your car and drive to your child’s school. Walk in the building. See how many teachers are there — moving classrooms, setting up classrooms, gathered in the media center or computer center for staff development classes, and giving entrance testing to students enrolling during the summer. Then, offer to help catalogue those books and count out the workbooks and hang the curtains so your child’s teacher can get out of the classroom and go lay by the pool.

By Leia

June 29, 2006 11:07 AM | Link to this

jim d - you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about! Amazing!

By Manny

June 29, 2006 11:10 AM | Link to this

jim d - I only work 1300 hours a year as opposed to the rest of the world that work 1900 hours? Where do you get this? I teach 4 different courses in 2 different departments and coach a sport and sponsor a club. Trust me - the hours logged are way more than 1300! You crack me up sometimes!

By jim d

June 29, 2006 11:13 AM | Link to this

Thank you Leia,

I just love it when I make a profound statement that causes teachers to tell me that. It generally means I’m dead on.

By jim d

June 29, 2006 11:19 AM | Link to this

Manny,

Are you compensated for coaching? And what’s the point about sponsoring a club? many of us volunteer our time for different youth organizations. You think you should be paid for that?

By TC

June 29, 2006 11:34 AM | Link to this

It would be wonderful to be poolside every day. However, despite having a master degree in education, I must continually go back for continuing education credits. This is done at my expense. It isn’t a choice, it is a necessity to keep my teaching position.

By SNY

June 29, 2006 11:35 AM | Link to this

Leia,

Grow up. Name calling, come on you can do better than blog-rat can’t you.

I was showing teachers that other professions work just as hard and have a lot of staff development classes and workshops and things that we have to attend as well.

The thing is, when you do your development and workshops, you are doing them in the summer and don’t have to worry about your desk backing up with work that you can’t get to because you are off-site at a meeting. During the summer, you have no homework to grade or papers to read. When other professional people are attending these same professional development meetings and things, they go back to work after 3 or 4 days and have all that work still waiting for them.

By teaching widow

June 29, 2006 11:37 AM | Link to this

Jim d you have no clue and your numbers are a farce — 1300 per year — you’re a moron — and to the one above who said maybe it’s easier on an elementary school techer you need a brain as well…

I did this calculation on last year’s blog to the same tune — so here it is again. My wife is a 2nd grade teacher — she reports at 7:30am and leaves the school at basically 5:00pm each day — finishing papers and required meetings, etc. — times 190 days thats already 1710 hours

Add to that an AVERAGE of 1 hour per night grading papers/reviewing plans — plus no less than 3 to 5 hours each week changing classroom boards, cleaning, filling out system paperwork, staff development, etc. — there is no question she works no less than 2050 hours per year — she does not get overtime, she does not get extra service time credit, she does not get “vacation time” — she gets 3 personal days during the year that must be approved and after more than a certain number of sick days she begins to have her salary docked.

During the summer she spends at least one week in system required staff development/continuing ed meetings, at least one week getting her classroom ready for the year — and no less than 3 days following school finishing up the year. So as many as 3 of 8 summer weeks are taken with required work — whether it’s part of the contract or not.

So here’s the bottom line — she works just as many or more hours than most (more than Jim d apparently) and gets about the same time off during the year in one stretch as anyone else — adding the sick time/continuing education time/vacation time and personal days most of us already get at our jobs — and has the responsibility of answering to about 50 bosses at any one given time (school and system administrators, state officials, accreditors and of course parents) — all the while trying to do the very best she can by the children she is entrusted with.

Two things — first she does it because she loves it and feels called to teach — so she never complains about the pay (that’s me) — second — if you really think it’s a cake walk try it for a year — living with one gives me the utmost respect for what teachers do — I wouldn’t take the job for what I make in a different profession — which is more than twice the average teacher salary.

Get over yourselves already and give these teachers the respect they eserve.

By Lynn

June 29, 2006 11:42 AM | Link to this

Wow Jim D - where did you get your numbers? If you figure 8 hrs per day(usually higher for the teachers I know) multiplied by the 190 work days per year, you get 1520 hours. Now, add in the hours spent grading and planning at home, not to mention making phone calls to parents. Then add in the summer hours spent moving rooms, setting up rooms, and pre-planning. I think it will add up to your 1900 easily. Now, don’t get me wrong - I think teachers get “summer off time”. Not as much as most people seem to think. And don’t even get me started on the pay stuff. I will be a first year SPED teacher come August. I was the parapro this past year. This summer, I’ve had to completely clean out my predecessor’s room (still not done - over 20 yrs of stuff to sort through). I’m supposed to go to local businesses and work on placement agreements so my kids can work during the year. I’m supposed to contact all of my kids families to build relationships before the year starts. I haven’t even gotten any files yet, or know what my caseload will be. I have an extra week of new teacher pre-planning to go to, then regular pre-planning. I’m truly excited about my job, I’m not complaining about the extra time. I signed on for this. I chose it. But, PLEASE don’t tell me that teachers are more than compensated, or that we work less than your average business person. It’s simply not true.

By OldSchool

June 29, 2006 11:43 AM | Link to this

Ah, jim d my dear fellow! There’s that broad brush again! Not once have I ever complained about my pay. Not once in 32 years have I griped about it. I HAVE joked about my paycheck: “Why do teachers have to take their paychecks to the bank?” (answer is further down)

Over the years I have been overall advisor for our SkillsUSA club but was “paid” $250 per year and had some of my travel expenses reimbursed. So yes, I was compensated for the hours after school spent in fundraising, planning & conducting local club events and competitions, taking students to regional and state conferences and competitions, and completing all related paperwork. I also was “paid” the same amount for 5 years of being drama club sponsor and one-act play coach. I’ve never had a planning block so everything club/activity related must be done after school or on weekends. That includes planning and chairing my Advisory Committee meetings, department meetings, and attending mandatory evening school events (open house, prom, homecoming dances, and such).

I’ve never been reimbursed for the weekend hours (often until evening) opening my lab for students and their parents who needed seat time for extra projects that not only were for school but for Scouts, church, college, etc. I was at school during Christmas break helping a student and her dad with a science project when a phone call told me my dad had passed away.

Not once have I complained because I love my work. The students who want the extra time are usually not the college prep or AP type students but the ones who have genuinely found their niche. Some of them merely tolerate me as a necessary evil just because they love the subject.

Would I like more pay? Sure, I’d be lying if I said no. Will I quit because the pay is low? Nope. I’ll continue doing what I love as long as I am making a difference with some students.

The answer to my “joke” is: Because they are too little to go by themselves.

Happy upcoming weekend and 4th of July!

By TC

June 29, 2006 11:45 AM | Link to this

Only 10 hours of professional development every 5 years? I’m in the wrong state and school district! We are required to complete 18 continuing education units (CEU), receiving .1 unit for every hour spent in professional development, or 180 hours every five years.

By teaching widow

June 29, 2006 11:46 AM | Link to this

My apologies to her for my spelling/typing errors — and after reading it again I forgot a couple of things — she’s also a great wife and fantastic mother to three children — I realize what a lucky man I really am……

By SNY

June 29, 2006 11:47 AM | Link to this

It seems like teachers want all of us to give them respect and understand where they are coming from, but they don’t want to give respect and understand where we are coming from.

No one said that teaching was easy. If you became a teacher because you thought it was easy then that’s your fault. Don’t expect us to baby you or feel sorry for you.

By jim d

June 29, 2006 11:52 AM | Link to this

Respect the deserve?

Know here’s where I upset more than a few with the truth.

Teachers act like labor, not professionals, so they are treated accordingly. Teacher candidates form the lowest of all groups by SAT/ACT scores, and it is rare for a teaching candidate to change majors to, say, engineering, but engineering students often switch to education, usually when they are failing their core classes. This does not mean that all teachers are dumb, but statistically as a class, they are the least intelligent.

I’m sorry Teaching Widow but the sad fact is that, as long as teachers are bureaucrats, and not accountable to parents, they will never garner that respect from the public.

And as long as they and their spouses revert to name calling whenever someone disagree’s with them they will never gain it from me.

By Lynn

June 29, 2006 11:56 AM | Link to this

SNY - no one is asking for babying, or for anyone to feel sorry for us. Common courtesy and acknowledgement that you don’t understand how much work goes into the job of teaching would be more than enough. Even better, just don’t talk about what you don’t know. Stop saying we work less than everyone else, or make more than we say.

By HB

June 29, 2006 12:07 PM | Link to this

I don’t know, Jim. I think paying club sponsors is fair (or at least count time as part of their work hours). Schools want to provide that for their students, and usually, school policy is the advisor must be a teacher (can’t ask for outside volunteers like yourself). If coaches can be paid for leading their extracurricular activities, then the Beta Club advisor’s time at the very least should be considered part of the work day.

You really are short-changing them. I just ran my own numbers. I figure a high school teacher doing the bare minimum they have to do (and we all know most of them do more), on average, works from 7:30 to 4. That’s 8.5 hours (no lunch breaks — they have to eat in the cafeteria and monitor students). 8.5 x 180 = 1,530; add in 10 more 8-hour days (I assume the days without students can be a little shorter), and you get 1,610 hours for the year. Using your figure of 1,900 hours, I figure teachers get about 36 more 8-hr days off, not the 75 you calculated. I know they put in unpaid hours beyond what I listed, but hey, most salaried people I know (including those with advanced degrees who make less than your average teacher) have to work late, travel for business, etc with no extra pay. For those who put in a huge number of extra hours — thank you, and I hope you are receiving at least some financial compensation (does GA still do extended day/extended year pay?).

So, in my opinion, teachers do have at least some time off that most others don’t, and I hope they enjoy it — lounge by the pool, go back to school, pick up some extra money — whatever you want! It’s a well-deserved benefit for a really tough job.

By jim d

June 29, 2006 12:07 PM | Link to this

Y’all have it rough.

Try this on.

6:00 am to 6:00pm 5 days a week-50 weeks per year —-on call 27/7 —- min. of 2hr. per week and one weekend per month working with youth group —-collect 24 CEU’s every year to maintain Professional licenses in various states —- and in your spare time pick up various youth protection training classes and CPR—- Then while y’all are on break, volunteer a week at youth summercamp.

Do I feel for you? Well yeah, just can’t reach you.

By Lynn

June 29, 2006 12:15 PM | Link to this

Lynn,

I never said that you work less or that you make more money than you say. Reread the posts, that wasn’t me. And teachers talk about what they don’t know by claiming that we don’t work as hard as they do. If a person has only ever been a teacher, how do they know how much the rest of us work.

It goes both ways.

By jim d

June 29, 2006 12:21 PM | Link to this

Old School,

Sorry for the wide brush, but it is what it is.

By SNY

June 29, 2006 12:21 PM | Link to this

Oops,

That last blog to Lynn came from me. I screwed up while someone was talking to me. Sorry.

By teaching widow

June 29, 2006 12:21 PM | Link to this

Jim d

interesting that when presented with irrefutable evidence that your numerical arguments were completely without merit you switch tunes and begin doing what? — basically saying teachers are the lowest on the academic scale. Hmmm…..first off generalizations are always the last line of argument, because they carry the least weight and are easily refuted on an individual basis. My teacher graduated with honors with a Business Management degree — and chose to go into teaching after being home with our children because it’s what she loves. She then invested thousands of dollars and went back and finished her masters in education summa cum laude….all while working a full time job.

And please be certain — I never wrote my post to try and garner respect from someone of your ilk … my post was merely to point out the lack of basis and credibility in any of your arguments. Mission accomplished.

Your statement that “teachers act like labor not professionals and are treated accordingly” says everything anyone here needs to know about who you are and how you think.

By Vacation

June 29, 2006 12:29 PM | Link to this

All I can say is, I don’t know of any other profession where people can take off one week or more at the end of the year, one week or more for spring break (that’s two weeks, so far) and then a number of consecutive weeks during the summer.

Most people I know get two weeks’ vacation per year and can never take it consecutively.\

And I do agree that teachers are underpaid. They should be highly compensated.

By Jeff

June 29, 2006 12:32 PM | Link to this

Jim:

Here ya go stirring up crap again.

Looking at my calculations: My former schools records can verify this, but I generally put in 12 hours a day every day a student has to be there. Over 180 days, that amounts to 2160 hours. Mow granted, I don’t ALWAYS stay 12 hrs on Fridays, so I’ll cut it back to working 4 days a week at 12 hours and 1 day a week at 8 hours (and since I’m there from 6:30a - 3:30 p, this is GIVING you an hour a week). This means that on 36 days in a given school year I am working 8 hours only, and the other 124 I am working 12. Even that amounts to 1776 hours worked, and we haven’t included weekends, summer, holiday, and the hours accounted for in the other 10 days on my contract. I’ll add in the other 10 days on my contract at 8 hrs a day, bringing my total to 1856 hours worked. Again, this is STILL not including any hours I work on the weekends, over the summer, or on breaks.

According to my calculations, taking into account the following holidays: Memorial Day, July 4th, Labor Day, 2 days for Thanksgiving, and 3 days for Christmas, as well as weekends and two weeks vacation time (I am NOT counting sick time), the average American worker works 238 days. Accounting for your average workday of 8 hours, I get only 1904 hours worked. Since our numbers are so similar, I’m assuming that we took into account similar, if not the exact same, factors.

Even using YOUR method with the numbers I just described: 1904 / 1856 = 1.025

Taking into account MY salary as a first year, BT-4 teacher ($29,918 if I am reading this properly… there is a $2,493.17 number below it), 1.025 * 29,918 = $30,691.74

Gee, Jim… That number is only 47% of the $65000 I’m supposedly making….

By teaching widow

June 29, 2006 12:32 PM | Link to this

Jim d

We do agree on one thing — there’s lots of bureaucracy in education — but it is not the teachers. But of course, that’s for another blog….

By Amy

June 29, 2006 12:38 PM | Link to this

PS to all of this - when a main breadwinner teaches, there will be no “poolside” to go to - who can afford that?????

By jim d

June 29, 2006 12:38 PM | Link to this

Now that’s humor!

My ilk? :-)

Actually could go into how teachers act like labor and how they could change the image. But you wouldn’t like that either. So from this ilky moron—hagd.

By Leia

June 29, 2006 12:48 PM | Link to this

SNY - I think “blog-rat” was a good one - I thought that “blog-troll” was too harsh!

Anyway - if you’ve never been a teacher, how can you say how much work WE do? I’ve been a software engineer, so I can speak about another profession.

Trust me - nobody wants one thing from you, as far as “babying” or anything else. I don’t even want your respect. If I taught your child - I’d definitely get it because I’m really good at what I do!

By jim d

June 29, 2006 12:49 PM | Link to this

Ah Jeff,

Do you lose sick days not taken or do the accumulate? I’ve known tachers to retire years early on sick days not taken. I’m not sure how it worked where you were or where you’re going. But hey, it is a negotiation tool you could use. And yes I did take teacher sick days into consideration and not for other workers because most people don’t get them or at the very least lose them if they aren’t needed.

By mike

June 29, 2006 12:51 PM | Link to this

Once again, the discussion goes back to how little a teacher is paid. Even in my county, certainly not the highest paid, the range is from about 32 (starting w/ no experience)-70 for teachers. The last I heard the AVERAGE salary for teachers was around $50K> That is not peanuts.

By Jeff

June 29, 2006 12:59 PM | Link to this

Jim:

I don’t know about the new system, but in the old one I left and had only accumulated 3 days…. (had only taken one, and if I’m not mistaken it was to go to the very interview that landed me in the new system… that interview day might have been the one I counted as a professional leave day though… unsure - took one of each, accumulated 3 of each.)

Even then: Where’s my $65,000??????

By jim d

June 29, 2006 01:05 PM | Link to this

See jeff, —and I didn’t even know about those professional leave days. I may have to recalculate ;-)

By jim d

June 29, 2006 01:08 PM | Link to this

“Even then: Where’s my $65,000??????”

I can’t keep up with my wifes spending habits — let alone yours.

By Harold

June 29, 2006 01:10 PM | Link to this

Harold remembers summer reading lists being assigned by teachers, so Harold says “serves ‘em right” if they have to work during the summer. Turnaround is fare play.

By Jeff

June 29, 2006 01:16 PM | Link to this

Jim:

Those days are extra work days, so make sure you work it in as such…

By Chris

June 29, 2006 01:18 PM | Link to this

Ha. WHATEVER. I have dated so many teachers in my life. Every summer they brag about relaxing, going to the pool, etc. You are a rare excetpion.

By HB

June 29, 2006 01:22 PM | Link to this

Every place I’ve worked, public and private, sick days were given and could accumulate up to a huge number (you max out eventually, but I think teachers do too). Salaried emloyees I know who work for companies with no sick leave receive 4-5 weeks of personal time (to be used as sick or vacation days) instead of the usual 2 to 2 1/2 weeks.

Sick days should not be subtracted from total required work days for teachers or non-teachers because they are only to be used if you are sick — if you’re not sick, you’re expected to be at work, no matter how many sick days you have.

Jim, it seems like you’re trying really hard to lower teacher’s hours to make your point. I find that when you have to manipulate numbers like that to make your point, your argument probably has very little merit. If you want to convince us, give us good data — don’t just play with the numbers until they support your point of view! Makes you look like either: a) slimeball for trying to trick people into seeing things your way instead of using good data, or b) an idiot if you actually believe your figures are valid.

By Leia

June 29, 2006 01:31 PM | Link to this

jim d is not really good with numbers, so, I won’t concern myself with his perception of how much I get paid vs. any other professional.

For goodness’ sake - he said that he’s on call 27/7! He lives in an alternate universe that has 27 hours in a day!

By Jessica

June 29, 2006 01:37 PM | Link to this

Give me a break…you teachers have it easy. Try working in television. You’ll get to work overnights, weekends, and holidays and get paid a lot less. Quit your complaining! I can’t even take a week off without getting crap from my boss.

By jim d

June 29, 2006 01:40 PM | Link to this

WOW,

This has been a banner day for sure.

I’ve managed to be called a moron, an idiot and a slimeball for thinking outside of the box about public education. Hmm, makes you wonder what it and the lovely people bringing it to our children are all about.

By jim d

June 29, 2006 01:42 PM | Link to this

Leia, Thanks for being such a wonderful typo cop.

By Leia

June 29, 2006 01:48 PM | Link to this

jim d - I’m not a type cop; I’m a teacher!

By Lynn

June 29, 2006 01:50 PM | Link to this

SNY - since this is an open blog, my comment was meant for all of the people who make comments such as yours. As for not knowing how much the rest of you work - I am a disabled US Navy veteran. I’ve also worked in electronic engineering, and was a network engineer for a major wireless company. At that wireless company, I worked a 40+ hr week, did at least 10-20 OT hours a week at home, went to night school to finish my degree, raised a kid, and was pregnant with my second, all while traveling between NH, MA and RI for work.

I’m not bragging, or whining, or whatever else you may think. I’m just saying that I know how the “real” world works. And I still think teachers are underpaid, totally under-respected, and falsely labeled with the whole “summers off” stuff.

By jim d

June 29, 2006 01:51 PM | Link to this

If you say so.

By James

June 29, 2006 01:52 PM | Link to this

And for all these classes the poor teachers “have to take,” there’s an automatic payraise at the end of the rainbow. Poor, pitiful them.

By Lynn

June 29, 2006 01:55 PM | Link to this

Guys - take it down a couple of notches, ok? Remember that this is an EDUCATION blog. Therefore, there will be lots of teachers on it. Obviously our opinions will be slightly biased in our favor. Just like Jessica’s (if we teachers have it so easy - come teach) about TV. Everyone thinks the grass is greener on the other side. In some cases, it may even be true. This blog is a place for people concerned with education to give opinions, and vent occasionally. Not attack each other.

By Lynn

June 29, 2006 01:58 PM | Link to this

James - have you seen the numbers for those automatic pay raises? You spend all your free time earning a degree that you pay tens of thousands to get, and that automatic pay raise is maybe $3K a yr.

By esl

June 29, 2006 02:02 PM | Link to this

I find it interesting that Jim D berates teachers’ intelligence when he is not able to write in complete sentences.

“Respect the deserve?

Know here’s where I upset more than a few with the truth.”

By HB

June 29, 2006 02:23 PM | Link to this

Aw, Jim, I didn’t call you an idiot AND a slimeball — it’s an either/or thing: option A or option B. And it has nothing to do with thinking outside the box. Manipulating numbers or presenting obviously flawed data just makes for a pitiful argument. 1300 hours/190 days = 6.8 hours/day. Are you really going to stand by that? When I was in high school, the last bell rang exactly 7 hours after the morning’s late bell. Do you honestly think it’s reasonable to claim that teachers work fewer hours than the school is in operation each day? I don’t know about all schools, but our teachers were required to be at school 30 minutes before homeroom began and 30 minutes after the last class ended. My mom taught in several schools and says that was pretty standard practice. Think outside the box all you want, but do work on your math skills.

By teacher too

June 29, 2006 02:53 PM | Link to this

Lot’s of name calling going on here… Maybe it’s time to call it a day on this topic!

By SNY

June 29, 2006 03:02 PM | Link to this

Leia,

If you acted the way my daughters last teacher acted, no you would not have my respect or the respect of my child. Like I said before, I am a great parent to work with if you choose to work with me and my daughter. I don’t want anyone to “baby” my child because her father and I don’t. But I do at least expect and actually demand that you at least listen to her. She is a person with feelings. What she has to say matters. If a teacher cannot find time to listen to her students and let them ask questions then she/he is dead WRONG!!! I don’t think that is asking too much.

Leia, if you are as good as you say you are, then the two of us would actually get along and work wonders together for my child. I tell you what I see and think and I would hope that if I wasn’t understanding something properly, you would inform me of that and set me straight.

Someone asked why did I let my 2nd grader decide to go to public school. I didn’t, I decided to be a stay at home mom and I couldn’t afford to put her back in private school. Now I am working again just to afford to put her back in private.

By jim d

June 29, 2006 03:13 PM | Link to this

Actually HB, according to the governement, education and health services workers averaged 32.6 hr. per wk. in may 06 which was the second highest average reported this year to the US dep. of labor. which averages out over a 5 day work week to be something like 5.52 hours per day. X 190 days = 1048.8 hours. Figuring in some in service days and rounding off brought me to the 1300 hour figure.

Here’s my source on the hours as were reported by the US. department of labor.

Call me crazy, but I was just using figures provided by uncle sam.

http://stats.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t15.htm

If any of you have a source other than your personal opinion please share it.

By Lynn

June 29, 2006 03:14 PM | Link to this

SNY - I’m sorry that you and your daughter had a bad experience. You’re right, every teacher should listen to their students. But please don’t let that determine how you feel about all teachers. Some of your postings sounded pretty bitter, and now I understand why. But there are incompetent and nasty people in every area of life. That doesn’t mean that everyone in the field deserves to be reviled. I don’t want my salary or time off to be affected by the lazy teacher down the hall, or the one who should have retired years ago….or the one who should never have become a teacher to begin with.

By SNY

June 29, 2006 03:38 PM | Link to this

Lynn,

You are right and last night as I was rereading all of the posts (you thought I wasn’t online) I did seem very bitter. I din’t realize how bitter I actually am about the situation.

I understand that all teachers aren’t like her former teacher but I have had sooooo many people in Gwinnett county tell me how good it is and how much better they are than anyone else that I don’t trust them. They are too busy trying to be right and not listening to the parents.

Trust me people, I am not really this mean in person. I am just very particular about the way you treat my children.

By Lynn

June 29, 2006 03:53 PM | Link to this

SNY - As you should be. I have 2 boys, my oldest has ADD. I’ve had to do battle many times. And other times, I’ve just had to be nice, and let the teacher know that I appreciate him/her and their difficult job.

I know nothing about Gwinnett - I’m in West GA. But everyone here tells me that it’s the best in the county. When I lived in NH, my town said it was the best around. Of course people say that. If not, then why are you living there? If people don’t say that, the implication is that you’re not doing the best for your child.

No school system is perfect. No parent is perfect. No teacher is perfect. No town/city is perfect. (Jim D - no statistics are perfect, especially when 2 different professions are lumped together). The point is, overall - teachers are not respected enough. Definitely not paid enough. Education is a tough place to be, and that can’t be denied.

By jim d

June 29, 2006 03:53 PM | Link to this

And Jeff,

On the sick day thing, I read somewhere

http://www.educationnext.org/20033/71.html

That school administrators frequently complain of excessive absences among teachers. According to a recent U.S. Department of Education survey, during the 1999–2000 school year, 5.2 percent of teachers were absent on any given day on average. That translates into 9.4 days out of a 180-day school year. During the 2000–01 school year in New York City, the annual rate of absences reached 11.3 days per teacher. These rates are much higher than in other executive or professional employment. The Bureau of Labor Statistics reports that the absentee rate for managerial and professional employees is just 1.7 percent of annual hours.

So you see it must be factored in.

By SNY

June 29, 2006 03:54 PM | Link to this

Teachers,

Look whether you take your required courses during the school year or during the summer, the fact remains that you get time off. Just enjoy it. Even if you have to take a course, try to enjoy the class. If you love teaching so much then try to enjoy the education that you need to pass that education on to the next batch of kids you get next year. How many hours a day can class last anyway. 5-6 hours a day, maybe?

By Just Wondering

June 29, 2006 04:11 PM | Link to this

SNY - I was the one who asked why you pulled your daughter out of the private school. I distinctly remember that on another post (or several posts!), you said that your daughter asked to attend public school, and you obliged. You need to understand, and explain to your daughter, that no teacher is going to love her and cater to her like you do! Realize that we have up to 150 kids - you have one. Don’t expect a teacher to drop everything and call you because your daughter is off-task! Unbelievable!

By Metro Atlanta Teacher

June 29, 2006 04:14 PM | Link to this

My contract is for 191 days. It ended May 31st. Technically, I am not obligated to do ANYTHING until I am required to report on August 7th for teacher preplanning. I love my job, but I am not paid for all of those little things the school wants me to come do over the summer that will “only take a minute.” People in private industry wouldn’t stand for this and too many teachers willingly “volunteer” their time. The teachers work for free, so the precedent has already been set. That’s why school districts get away with not paying teachers for their time or expecting them to work unpaid over the summer. If they would extend my contract by 5 days to compensate me for those “just a minute” tasks, I would certainly be willing to come in and take care of minor things. If they want me 5 days per week, then pay me the $12k in salary for being at work those extra weeks over the summer. Wouldn’t you expect to get paid?

By SNY

June 29, 2006 04:19 PM | Link to this

Just Wondering,

My child is in elementary school - her teacher had 19 or 20 kids. Try again!

By Just Wondering

June 29, 2006 04:22 PM | Link to this

SNY - you wouldn’t have scored well on the CRCT either!

I said - *Realize that we have up to 150 kids *

UP TO INCLUDES 19 OR 20! YOU TRY AGAIN!

By Cletus Snow

June 29, 2006 04:27 PM | Link to this

My mom taught school 43 years my sister teaches now as does my wife,get real its a good gig.If you don’t think so, check the parking lot for high dollar rolling stock.They almost all stay til retirement,they will kill for tenure. Retirements good, vacations good,moneys good.The last few years they have been getting a black eye from a small group of child molesters,there needs to be some means of getting rid of them.

By SNY

June 29, 2006 04:30 PM | Link to this

I understand what you wrote, I was just letting you know that this particular teacher couldn’t use that reason as an excuse. I’m not an idiot.

BTW, my daughter did score well on the CRCT!! If you read the rest of her scores, you would have seen that. Maybe you are the idiot!!

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

June 29, 2006 04:31 PM | Link to this

Jim D,

You really have the teachers upset today. But, you were dead on about their work hours as they relate to other occupations.

For some reason, teachers seem to think, they are the only people who continue to work after 8 hours - without pay. I’m not talking about at home.

There are lots of people with a college education, who make less than teachers.

No matter what teachers say, they do not put in more hours than the average salary employee. Most people put in extra hours at work, not for overtime - but because the job has to be done. Also, with the pay of teachers - in a corporate environment - you would be an exempt employee and you know what that means. You would be expected to complete any project, without extra pay and until it gets completed.

By SET

June 29, 2006 04:32 PM | Link to this

SNY:

I’m looking in occasionally and saw your last post. It wasn’t always clear to me that your child was in elementary school. In some of the previous posts I may have believed you were referring to High School situations.

As the students get older I remember less “listening” going on in class - and kids would be called on if the teacher needed to hear from them. You could always ask to be called on and then pose a question. My remarks are usually directed to dealing with post pubescent kids.

In the primary grades I agree things should be different.

Hope everybody isn’t falling through freeways into sinkholes back east… The photos in today’s paper look pretty bleak! Blue skies and warm weather here.

By jim d

June 29, 2006 04:36 PM | Link to this

You are quite correct Cletus.

Let’s not forget the other fringes. The Bureau of Labor Statistics reports fringe benefits for other professions, which include paid vacations. But nearly all teachers are on nine- or ten-month contracts and thus do not receive paid vacations. In addition, due to idiosyncrasies in the federal Social Security law, in some states teachers are included in state pension plans as well as Social Security, while in others they are not. Published Bureau of Labor Statistics data on benefits for “teachers” employed by state and local governments also combine full-time postsecondary teachers with K–12 teachers. This makes the comparison more difficult, but since public K–12 teachers account for more than 80 percent of the combined total, the data still provide some insight into the comparative benefits of teachers.

Employers’ largest fringe benefit cost is retirement plans. Virtually all public school teachers are included in traditional defined-benefit plans in which teachers receive pension payments according to a defined schedule on retirement. These differ from defined-contribution plans, like the TIAA-CREF plans in most public and private colleges, in which the retirement benefits depend on investment earnings and saving rates and may vary from employee to employee. Public school teachers become eligible for pension benefits (or “vest”) in these plans after five to seven years of employment. The contributions to these systems made by school districts or states are substantial. And because of the high turnover rates of teachers in their early years, these defined benefit plans in practice transfer wealth from young to more senior teachers.

The result is a system that permits teachers to retire earlier than they would if they were covered by Social Security or a conventional pension plan. For example, in the Missouri teacher pension system, a teacher who began teaching at age 22 and served continuously could retire at age 55 with 84 percent of her annual salary. In addition, her pension payments would be adjusted for inflation on an annual basis. Regular cost-of-living adjustments are unusual in private-sector defined-benefit programs. This teacher could also take employment in a new job and still collect her full pension benefits as long as the new employer was not a Missouri public school district.

National data show a similar pattern. In the 1994–95 Schools and Staffing Surveys, both male and female teachers who retired by the next school year averaged 59 years of age at retirement. By comparison, new retirees collecting Social Security retirement benefits have average retirement ages of 63.7 (men) and 63.6 (women).

The second largest fringe benefit cost (as a percentage of payroll) is health insurance. Health insurance coverage for public school teachers is nearly universal (more than 99 percent). The Bureau of Labor Statistics reports that health insurance benefits amount to 7.1 percent of hourly compensation costs for teachers (including postsecondary), but only 5.1 percent for professionals in private business. These same data suggest that the benefits provided to teachers are attractive relative to the private sector. For example, for individual policies, only 20 percent of health insurance plans for professional or managerial employees in medium and large private-sector firms are fully paid by the employer. The comparable share for teachers is 51 percent. Only 10 percent of medium and large private firms pay the full premium for family policies, compared with 29 percent in public school systems.

By luvs2teach

June 29, 2006 04:37 PM | Link to this

Hey kids - I’m back! Are you all playing nicely?

I am back from my month-long “working vacation” of learning Portuguese in Brazil - I even had homework. I did that for my students, but also for myself.

Like so much else in life, the answer to the bloq question is all a matter of perspective - to someone who has less “time off” than they perceive a teacher to have - then obviously, our situation seems cushy (it appeared that way to me when I was in the private sector).

To teachers who bust their butts for 9+ months, and still have “work” (classes, summer school, outside jobs) to do, the term “time off” seems like an oxymoron and the unkind comments and jealous feelings surrounding it seem uncalled for.

I did like the term “furlough” because in essence, that’s what it is - unpaid time off, with a return to work expected in the future. For myself, I look at it as comp time for all the extra nights and weekends I worked during the year.

I enjoy the time, but I do spend a considerable amount of it on classes (required and not, college/county/private), writing grants, and evaluating my last year and planning for my next - I do that because I like to - it’s part of improving on a job I love. It is my choice, as it is the choice of all you out there to work in your chosen professions, pros AND cons of each.

jim d - I know you know the old saying about lies, damn lies, and statistics :-) I looked at your site, and it didn’t specify how the hours were calculated. My guess (and it’s just that) is that if it’s an average it was spread out over an entire year - not 180 or 190 days. Just check the human resource page of any county school system, and I’m sure you’ll see what the contract day is (8 hours in mine - 40 hour week/ 38 weeks per year). Don’t forget, you can’t compare what teachers make to what the average American makes, because the average American is not college educated (last stat I saw it was 20% - that may be wrong, not sure) and a 4 year college education is the MINIMUM requirement for a teacher. When that’s factored in, then we do drop significantly in comparison, but the summer comp time helps average things out.

I don’t complain about my pay - it’s fine and I knew what I was getting into. But I could be making a lot more with my BS in Science (real science, not science ed - some insane voice in my head kept calling me to teach - next time I’ll think twice about listening to it!).

Peace out all - lighten up and be nice to each other!

The pool is calling my name…

By Just Wondering

June 29, 2006 04:38 PM | Link to this

SNY - I never called you an idiot out loud, only in my head. I thought the whole point of the SNY SHOW was because your daughter failed a part of the CRCT! Specifically, the part on inferential reading. I guess I misunderstood you - NOT!

By jim d

June 29, 2006 04:46 PM | Link to this

:-) Amazed,

For some reason I just knew they’d be unhappy. I could have saved myself some grief by posting my sources earlier, but hey, they seemed to be enjoying jumping all over me, so I let them go for awhile. (I know I really shouldn’t have.) I figure they’re human too and sometimes we all just need to vent.

By HB

June 29, 2006 04:48 PM | Link to this

Jim, the table you linked to shows “average weekly hours of production or nonsupervisory workers(1) on private nonfarm payrolls by industry sector and selected industry detail” and you looked at “education and health services workers.” How does this relate to the average number of hours worked per week by full-time, public school teachers? Well, it probably doesn’t…

First, that’s just way too broad a category to use to draw the conclusions you did. An education payroll will include support staff and part-time employees; you can’t say that teachers only work 1,300 hours per year based on that. Second, it sounds like it’s only looking at the private sector, not public schools. This figure may include lots of private pre-schools and daycares that often hire part-time teachers, but not one public middle school. And part-time nurses, orderlies, etc. You’d be much better off estimating using the length of the school day.

By jim d

June 29, 2006 04:53 PM | Link to this

check the other link. There are a few minor diffferences but not really major.

By luvs2teach

June 29, 2006 04:55 PM | Link to this

Amazed - I was on my way out, then I read your post. You said, “For some reason, teachers seem to think, they are the only people who continue to work after 8 hours - without pay. I’m not talking about at home.”

No, we don’t. We really, really don’t.

What we want people to realize is that our day is not the same bell-to-bell day that your child has. That’s the misperception we are trying to dispel. Our summer is not the same as your child’s either - even those that opt to truly enjoy ALL their time off work 5 to 10 days more that the students do.

You also said, “There are lots of people with a college education, who make less than teachers.”

Yup, you’re right, there are. Social workers (my aunt is one) for instance. So what? There are also a lot of people without a college degree who make MORE that teachers do (my husband - commercial construction sales). So what? What’s the point?

IMHO, jim d was trying to present a point using statistics (from one source) that didn’t jib with people’s experience, or empirical evidence if you want the scientific gobbledy-gook. They were just sharing their evidence.

All of us have made a choice, yourself included. And I may be WAY off, particularly given that tone isn’t present in a blog, but your comments come off as slightly jealous - “Look at me, I work hard, too - I don’t know what you teachers are complainging about.”

But of course, if complaining weren’t a national pasttime, NONE of us would be reading and writing on the blog.

BTW - we should all be thankful for the good things in our country that our jobs do provide - like really good toilet paper!

Peace out - for real this time!

By Laf

June 29, 2006 04:55 PM | Link to this

and be employed 12 months a year and be paid an adequate salary.

By HB

June 29, 2006 05:00 PM | Link to this

What other link?

By SC

June 29, 2006 05:12 PM | Link to this

Teachers do get the summer off. Some choose to take class, some choose to take it easy. They could take those classes during the school year if they so chose. to Robert who started this blog…that is your choice to take those PHD classes. I have plenty of school teacher friends that take their classes all year long. You have nothing to complain about…you can leave work on many days by 4 or 5 (as compared to my 6 or much later), and you have any and every holiday off, plus long breaks. Everyone has it tough, no matter what his/her profession.

By Me

June 29, 2006 05:15 PM | Link to this

Why would you call Leia on name calling? You do it. Shame on you.

**By SNY

June 29, 2006 04:30 PM | Link to this

I understand what you wrote, I was just letting you know that this particular teacher couldn’t use that reason as an excuse. I’m not an idiot.

BTW, my daughter did score well on the CRCT!! If you read the rest of her scores, you would have seen that. Maybe you are the idiot!!**

By jim d

June 29, 2006 05:18 PM | Link to this

HB,

The one posted above, but here it is again.

http://www.educationnext.org/20033/71.html

By HB

June 29, 2006 05:35 PM | Link to this

There you go, Jim. That one says teachers average 38 to 40 hours per week at school and that most also take work home. That’s a much more reasonable figure! Why didn’t you use that instead of a 5.5-hour day?

By Jeff

June 29, 2006 06:20 PM | Link to this

SC:

Your average punch out time is 6p? LUCKY!!!!!! At my former school - and more than likely myu new school - I was one of the first 3 cars in the parking lot EVERY DAY and one of the last 5 EVERY NIGHT. A typical work day for me - no joke - was 6:30a - 8p, and that doesn’t include the drive that made that day MUCH closer to 5:30a - 9p.

Look guys, we can squabble about this the rest of our lives. Non-teachers: If you haven’t been a teacher, you don’t know. Teachers: If you haven’t worked in the private sector, you don’t know. Those of us that have done both: Your preference taints your comments. (Whether you went FROM industry ot TO industry.) There is NO truly “objective” source here.

By Teacher2

June 29, 2006 06:48 PM | Link to this

I entered education after 15 years of international corporate banking. As Jeff stated, I cannot be totally objective because I much prefer teaching as a career, even though it is much more demanding, physically, mentally, and emotionally (not to mention I will never, as a teacher, approach my former salary, even, dear jim d, if you factor in the 190-day numbers versus a full year salary). In my previous career, the time off (5 weeks vacation +15 sick days +3 personal days) was a welcome diversion. Now, as a teacher, the time off is absolutely essential to my well-being, even though my daily logged time for each job is virtually identical. I worked 10-12 hour days in banking and I do the same as a teacher. I often worked until midnight to meet a deadline, and as a teacher I am often up past that time working on lesson plans, studying for my masters, or grading papers. My corporate job, however, stayed in the office. As a teacher, I am “on” all the time, regardless of whether school is in session. I’ve been on both sides of the fence, and I used to envy my teacher friends’ time off. Now I know how essential it is.

By jim d

June 30, 2006 08:27 AM | Link to this

Gee HB, I don’t know.

I guess it was just selective reading, kind of like yours.

Did you miss this? “The combination of a shorter workday and work year means that the annual hours on the job for teachers are much shorter than in comparable professions. Consider Figure 1, which shows hourly rates of pay computed by the Bureau of Labor Statistics for a variety of occupations. By these calculations, only engineers, architects, and surveyors in private practice and attorneys earn more than teachers on an hourly basis.”

By HB

June 30, 2006 10:12 AM | Link to this

Jim, I never said they didn’t have shorter hours/years than many professions. I just said it wasn’t nearly as much shorter as you made it out to be. Please go back and read my first post, and you’ll see I did agree they get a good bit of summer time with which to do whatever they choose and do work fewer days/hours per year than most professions. It’s a benefit that attracts many people to the profession — not because the shorter year makes it that much easier of a profession than other they could choose, but because many parents like having a schedule similar to their school-age kids. Good for them! But to imply that teachers only work 190 5.5-hr days — that’s just insulting and unfair! And of course, inaccurate…

By Lee

June 30, 2006 10:23 AM | Link to this

Ok, for those of you joining this blog late, let me summarize.

Teachers get the summers off.

Do not.

Do too.

Do not.

Do too.

Do not.

Do too.

Do not.

Do too.

Do not.

Do too.

Do not.

Do too.

Do not.

Do too.

Do not.

Do too.

Do not.

Do too.

There. That should clear everything up.

By Leia

June 30, 2006 10:43 AM | Link to this

Lee - perfect!!!!

By SNY

June 30, 2006 11:22 AM | Link to this

Lee,

That was too funny. I guess we do sound like the children we are talking about.

By luvs2teach

June 30, 2006 11:57 AM | Link to this

Lee - that was awesome!

Just a thought - for those of you who get less than 4 weeks vacation and want to do something about that, but aren’t into the idea of working with children, I do know someone who is hiring that offers 30 DAYS paid vacation your first year. They also provide housing, full medical and dental, and decent life insurance. Pay is commensurate with some experience and college is not necessary, but will increase your pay from the start. Interested?

Then call your local military recruiter!

Just thinking of all the whining we ALL do about our jobs, at least our lives are not on the line (well, maybe…). I was in the service, but luckily in a beautiful window of peace when nothing dangerous happened in the world. I just thought, on the July 4th weekend, we should take a step back from ourselves and say a quiet prayer of thanks (or whatever) to those men and women who are serving our country right now - whether you agree with the war or not!

OK - off my soapbox!

Happy 4th of July (extended) weekend!

By SNY

June 30, 2006 12:45 PM | Link to this

luvs,

I was in the Army for 4 years. You are right, we should send a big THANK YOU to the men and women who are not at home to celebrate the 4th with their loved ones. this is at least one holiday where both teachers and most other professions are off together.

My ETS was very close. My last day of Inactive Ready Reserve was 8/31/01. Did I luck out or what.

By jim d

June 30, 2006 01:31 PM | Link to this

HB,

Guess it just depends upon if you believe a government report where the schools do the reporting or if you believe a survey of teachers. Neither way is an accurate measurement. But unfair and insulting?—I really think not, simply a matter of opinion.

Ok, I’m outta here! My vacation starts right now!! Y’all have a safe holiday, and keep on bloggin. See ya in a week or so.

By HB

June 30, 2006 01:44 PM | Link to this

I would absolutely believe a gov’t report where public schools report the hours worked by their full-time teachers. Know where I can find one? Because that’s not what you linked to before. Their numbers probably accurately represent what the agency claims they do, but if you actually read the report’s title, it’s not full-time public school teachers!

By lovethejob

June 30, 2006 05:00 PM | Link to this

Hey Jim D. SHUT UP! You can have your opinion, but don’t be a jerk! Teachers are very professional, most of them anyway. All professions have those who do not represent them well or act like professionals. Teachers are “on” all of the time. I was at the mall with my family yesterday and was stopped by a parent to discuss her child and the report card, I taught 85 middle schoolers this past year (and at least that many or more the previous six years) and am expected to remember information about EACH child when I see the parent out somewhere. I doubt you have unexpected work related conferences everywhere you go… I love my job and anyone who is teaching and does not love it should leave. But, I don’t need to hear you and your negative comments when I give so much of my self on a daily basis. By the way, yes I do enjoy my summers off. I work a lot in the summer, on school stuff, but I enjoy the freedom and few weeks of no set schedule to keep. For those who are so down on this, you could teach too. No one is stopping you. So quit acting like the world gave eveyone else lemons while the teachers sit by the pool with thier lemonade. You made your career choice just like we made ours!

By Michael

June 30, 2006 06:09 PM | Link to this

Winter breaks, spring breaks and other school holidays. Then 6 weeks or so in the summer. And they complain they don’t make any money. Then go get a job.

By Leia

June 30, 2006 07:01 PM | Link to this

Michael - Wow, that was a clever and original comment. I’ve never heard that before (note the sarcasm)

By North Georgia Middle School Teacher

July 4, 2006 06:17 PM | Link to this

Technically, I have to agree with “call me crazy”; we do have the summers off. We sometimes have to do duties in the summer, but we are compensated either monetarily or with PLUS to renew our certificates. As for the resurgence of the age-old teachers are under/over paid and work less/more than other professions, it depends on what you put into it and what personally drives you. I think some of my fellow teachers are overpaid because they aren’t in it for kids anymore. I think some others are underpaid because they give up personal time, spend their own money on supplies, etc. Those people aren’t working for money, however; they are seeking another type of fulfillment. I made more money working in the corporate world at Shaw Industries, inc., but at the end of the day, I didn’t feel like I mattered and that’s what led me to switch to teaching. Some people just work for paychecks and get their personal fulfillment at home, I get most of mine in that classroom.