AJC.com > Blogs > Get Schooled > Archives > 2006 > June > 27 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USTo Wake or Not To Wake?
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
A reporter observes a sleeping eighth-grade student inside a summer school classroom. The teacher ignores the sleeping student and makes no attempt to wake the snoozer. The reporter returns to the newsroom and mentions this observation, sparking discussion:
Does a teacher have an obligation to this student? Or is it okay for the teacher to say, “I’m here to teach. This student has made the decision not to learn.”? The broader issue is, how far should summer school teachers go in trying to get their kids over the CRCT hurdle?
My colleague witnessed a teacher with a whatever-it-takes attitude, determined to do everything possible to help his students pass. Then she saw the flip side. Some middle school teachers had the attitude that these kids got behind in elementary school and now there is nothing that can be done for them. Does this attitude make you cringe or are these teachers just stating reality?
Comments
By Janine
June 27, 2006 01:22 PM | Link to this
Well, I have mixed feelings as a parent and a teacher…First, you should know that on the Ga.Teacher Evaluation Instrument, a teacher is marked down if he/she does not address a student who is obviously not paying attention for whatever reason.Some teachers in my middle school kept a spray bottle full of water and sprayed the sleeping beauties to wake them up. This was done over and over no matter how many times the same student dozed off. That said….it is important to note that many students do not attend to the lessons in the classroom…on a regular basis….they sleep, draw, write letters, do homework for another subject,etc….So it’s my feeling that as long as the teacher has addressed the behavior two or three times AND notified the parent about the behavior, that is as far as hie/her responsibility goes…If the student’s behavior is not preventing others from learning, let it go. If the teacher spends time waking up sleeping beauties, the other students do not get all the attention they deserve.
By teach1
June 27, 2006 01:28 PM | Link to this
This is a trying situation. As a teacher I have done both; let the child sleep and go as far as making a student stand up to keep him/her awake. There are some students who no matter how many times you call their name, give them a nudge or take away something to lean on, you can not keep them awake. Not knowing how many times this teacher has dealt with this student in this situation makes it impossible for anyone to judge. I have given chronic sleepers 15-20 minute nap times because after talking with parents and the student there is still no change. I also have sent missed work home for make up. When a student can not be woken up with out rough shaking, a teacher is limited on what they can do. This is another case where teachers, parents and student need to work together. Teachers need to let mom and dad know what is going on. Parents need to try to get the child to bed earlier and the students needs to be ready to learn.
Passing on students not ready for the next grade is inexcusable. No matter where the students fell behind it is the teachers job to take them as far as they possibly can. I know this means often a 7th grade teacher could be teaching levels as low as 3rd grade and as high as 12th. but there is no excuse for just saying I can’t do anything with this student. It is difficult but many teachers can and do work successfully with students in the same situation.
By teach1
June 27, 2006 01:29 PM | Link to this
This is a trying situation. As a teacher I have done both; let the child sleep and go as far as making a student stand up to keep him/her awake. There are some students who no matter how many times you call their name, give them a nudge or take away something to lean on, you can not keep them awake. Not knowing how many times this teacher has dealt with this student in this situation makes it impossible for anyone to judge. I have given chronic sleepers 15-20 minute nap times because after talking with parents and the student there is still no change. I also have sent missed work home for make up. When a student can not be woken up with out rough shaking, a teacher is limited on what they can do. This is another case where teachers, parents and student need to work together. Teachers need to let mom and dad know what is going on. Parents need to try to get the child to bed earlier and the students needs to be ready to learn.
Passing on students not ready for the next grade is inexcusable. No matter where the students fell behind it is the teachers job to take them as far as they possibly can. I know this means often a 7th grade teacher could be teaching levels as low as 3rd grade and as high as 12th. but there is no excuse for just saying I can’t do anything with this student. It is difficult but many teachers can and do work successfully with students in the same situation.
By teach1
June 27, 2006 01:30 PM | Link to this
This is a trying situation. As a teacher I have done both; let the child sleep and go as far as making a student stand up to keep him/her awake. There are some students who no matter how many times you call their name, give them a nudge or take away something to lean on, you can not keep them awake. Not knowing how many times this teacher has dealt with this student in this situation makes it impossible for anyone to judge. I have given chronic sleepers 15-20 minute nap times because after talking with parents and the student there is still no change. I also have sent missed work home for make up. When a student can not be woken up with out rough shaking, a teacher is limited on what they can do. This is another case where teachers, parents and student need to work together. Teachers need to let mom and dad know what is going on. Parents need to try to get the child to bed earlier and the students needs to be ready to learn.
Passing on students not ready for the next grade is inexcusable. No matter where the students fell behind it is the teachers job to take them as far as they possibly can. I know this means often a 7th grade teacher could be teaching levels as low as 3rd grade and as high as 12th. but there is no excuse for just saying I can’t do anything with this student. It is difficult but many teachers can and do work successfully with students in the same situation.
By Janine
June 27, 2006 01:50 PM | Link to this
WHY IS THE ABOVE POST REPEATED THREE TIMES?
By dan
June 27, 2006 01:51 PM | Link to this
If you give them a zero for not doing their work because they were sleeping then the school system will fire you. This happened in Gwinnett a couple years back. I wake them and make them stand. After you do this consistantly they will stop trying to sleep. I will probably lose my job because I am making the kids stand. Now a days teh kids and parents run the schools and set the rules. It is time for the schools to get a backbone.
By jim d
June 27, 2006 01:58 PM | Link to this
Yes I cringe and yes the teacher does have an obligation, they’re being paid to teach. However, the student has an obligation to learn and the parents have an equal obligation to send the child to school prepared to learn. I cringe whenever I see any one portion of this formula break down.
By OldSchool
June 27, 2006 02:03 PM | Link to this
There is no one answer to this one…at least for me. I’ve awakened students, let them sleep, warned, cajoled, bumped the table and have come to the conclusion that I need to take each case as it comes. Fortunately, I don’t have too many who doze off and usually it’s during the first block or the one following lunch.
If it is uncharacteristic for the student to put his/her head down, I will find a minute to quietly inquire as to why. Most of the time it is a child who has come to school ill to avoid missing a test, a review, etc. Or if I know the student works after school, I will often give him/her about 15 minutes to nap PROVIDED the time is made up after school. I give a work ethic grade that includes deductions for sleeping, tardies, ISS/OSS, and other behaviors. Illness in class is not usually a deduction.
But when the student is one who would try the patience of Job, I figure we could both use the break and (unless I’m being evaluated) I let him/her sleep. Class goes on as usual and if the bell doesn’t awaken the student, I don’t either. The next class often sees the sleeping beauty when they come in and will be very quiet as they get on task themselves just to see how long the nap will last. Notes to the next teacher include exactly what the student was doing to make him/her late and I will note the infraction on a 3 strikes discipline referral.
By Wake-Up Call
June 27, 2006 02:06 PM | Link to this
Here’s an idea for a wake-up call that one of my fifth grade teachers used back in DeKalb County in 1981: have a yardstick handy and if you see a student napping, bring yardstick down on the desk (not on the student, mind you), but just on the desk. Worked in two ways: 1. woke anyone up out of the deadest sleep; 2. you didn’t dare fall asleep knowing that you would receive this kind of wake-up call. Worked like a charm!
By Janine
June 27, 2006 02:08 PM | Link to this
to jim d…of course the teacher is obligated to and getting paid to teach…but taking time from the other students to continually address sleeping students, daydreaming students, drawing, doodling students is not efficient time management…
By Jeff
June 27, 2006 02:14 PM | Link to this
Old School,
Once again, I’m going to have to attempt to copy one of your ideas… change the “Partcipation” to a “Work Ethic”…
By Leia
June 27, 2006 02:18 PM | Link to this
Wake-Up Call - a teacher who used to teach at my school used that technique with slamming a book on the offender’s desk. He was called into the principal’s office the next day to be chastised by an irate parent. He also got a “letter” in his folder for poor classroom management.
Now, I let sleeping dogs lie.
By HB
June 27, 2006 02:20 PM | Link to this
Wake-up Call — I had an 8th grade teacher who did the same thing. Didn’t even wait for you to fall asleep. As soon as your eyes glazed over and got a little droopy — WHACK! Worked well. By 3 or 4 weeks into the year, we were attentive enough in class that he didn’t have to do it anymore.
By Stephanie
June 27, 2006 02:23 PM | Link to this
A teacher especially in summer school should not be responsible for waking a lazy child…in some areas if a student falls asleep in summer school, they are given 1 warning, after that they will be asked to leave for the day. The teacher is there to teach, they should not have to interrupt class to wake a student who obviously does not care to learn. For school in general, students do get sick so it is understandable if they happen to fall asleep (though they should be sent to the nurse and then sent home) but most students who fall asleep are being lazy. It is not up to the teacher to keep your child awake in class, it is up to the parent to be sure the child is getting adequate sleep and is taught the value of learning and respect. Teachers: I say keep on teaching, don’t interrupt your classes and put off the students who want to learn for the student who doesn’t care.
By jim d
June 27, 2006 02:24 PM | Link to this
janine,
Please recall I stated that each party has an obligation. It’s JMHO, but each is obligated to the other, and as a whole they are obligated to taxpayers that are footing the bill. None are obligated more than another.
Funny thing is that teachers will blame parents and students, parents and students will blame teachers. And not a one of you (parents, teachers or students) will acknowledge their obligation to taxpayers.
By Leia
June 27, 2006 02:33 PM | Link to this
jim d - I would gladly give up the 2 or 3 cents the sleeping student’s parent pays toward my annual salary if they would get that kid out of my classroom and replace him/her with one who actually wanted to learn.
By Newly
June 27, 2006 02:34 PM | Link to this
My obligation is to the students… not the taxpayers. I teach children because I care about children…worrying about taxpayers is not motivating enough to make me go to work everyday…
I would wake the child, find out why the child is constantly sleeping, contact the parents, and continue to FOCUS ON THE CHILD!
By SNY
June 27, 2006 02:41 PM | Link to this
Leia,
That teacher would have been called into the office if they did that to my child as well. Scaring a sleeping person, child or adult, is not a good idea. Haven’t you ever heard that you could give someone a heart attack that way. I like Old School’s approach to the situation. Everyone is different. My child put her head down once this year and the teacher automatically knew that she wasn’t feeling well. Why-because my child never wanted to stop answering questions all year long. For her to put her head down signaled - to a good teacher anyway - that something was terribly wrong. She had the nurse call me and I took her to the doctor. She had food poisoning or ate something that didn’t agree with her at lunch. Now if a teacher had slammed a book or a ruler down on my childs desk with that going on, you are d**ned right they would be in the principals office with me screaming and hollering at him. If you don’t like it tough, get another job. I’ll send her to school ready and healthy. I can’t do much if she gets sick at school until they call me to come and get her.
By jim d
June 27, 2006 02:45 PM | Link to this
Well unfortunately for you teachers taxpayers are the ones footing the bill, without them your job would cease to exist. Granted you’re not concerned with that since your salary is literally being stolen from someone else. So I understand why concerns about taxpayers would fail to motivate you to go to work.
Let’s just cut through all the BS though. Without taxpayers paying your salary you wouldn’t be going to work to teach in a public school, regardless of what you say.
By SNY
June 27, 2006 02:45 PM | Link to this
Teachers,
Where would all of you be without taxpayers and their dollars? I’m not saying that you owe us your lives, just you absolute best between the hours of 8 - 3. Or whatever your teaching hours are. I know they vary for each school.
By Jeff
June 27, 2006 02:47 PM | Link to this
I’m actually considering a technique based on how hard a teacher I am anyway: Every student is responsible for and to every other student. One kid sleeps in class, I’ll devise something to deal with ALL students in class… taking control of peer pressure and using it to my advantage…
By Leia
June 27, 2006 02:48 PM | Link to this
SNY - I agree with you! I would never do that! My luck would be that the student had a pre-existing heart disease and would have an attack!
I was just saying that I just let the kids sleep now. I ask them if they are ill. If they say no, I move on with my lesson. It is not fair to the other students for me to disrupt my lesson to wake someone up every 5 minutes.
By MMM
June 27, 2006 02:54 PM | Link to this
Wake up call—
In the “good old day’s” of the ‘70’s my 7th grade math teacher ordered a box of inch thick plastic meter sticks that he would use as pointers AND he would make sure he BROKE one across the desk of the first person he observed sleeping, passing notes or not paying attention. He usually didn’t need to break more than one per class.
BTW—the kids would not have even considered trying to get their parents to complain about this to the “administration”. This teacher had previously been elected mayor of the town!
By jim d
June 27, 2006 02:56 PM | Link to this
Leia,
2 or 3 cents?
Assuming you have 5 periods each day and let’s say 30 students per class, well you do the math.
And unfortunately for you taxpayers are paying you to teach ALL students. If you don’t like that arrangement, get a job at a private school.
By SNY
June 27, 2006 02:57 PM | Link to this
I would just wake them up and send them to the nurse or the office and have them call one of their parents right there on the spot. No questions asked. That way you spend minimal time dealing with a sleeping child.
By jim d
June 27, 2006 02:58 PM | Link to this
LOL, you go Jeff, but be prepared for some really irate parents and some PO’d administrators.
By SNY
June 27, 2006 03:01 PM | Link to this
MMM,
What does being mayor of the town have to do with anything. If I was in his class, I still would have complained to my mom and dad.
By jim d
June 27, 2006 03:02 PM | Link to this
MMM,
Yeah the “good ol days” the times when teachers would allow you to sleep if you were willing to take a zero for the day. Shoot, some of them were even kind enough to allow you to sleep right through you next period so you could earn two zero’s.
By jim d
June 27, 2006 03:05 PM | Link to this
Oh and Jeff,
If you are planning on doing that in your new school, I’d highly recomend keeping your home here.
By Jeff
June 27, 2006 03:07 PM | Link to this
My question: Taking care of your unit is DRILLED into you in boot camp. The military is one of society’s most efficiently run beuaracies known, and is among its most effective as far as mission success goes. Why then, SHOULDN’T classroom discipline be as strict and as unit based as miltary discipline? You screw up - particularly in tightly run Marine units - and the officers don’t have to worry about it… the other guys in your unit take care of setting you straight because they don’t want to deal with the consequences of you being less than the absolute best you can be.
By HB
June 27, 2006 03:09 PM | Link to this
Jeff, I would strongly advise against such techniques. As a kid who was almost always good in class, there was nothing I hated more than when the whole class was punished for the actions of a few. The majority of the time, that kid was not my friend, and I had no influence over his/her behavior. Besides, as a general rule, kids that regularly acted up didn’t straighten up any more for other students than they did for teachers. All that group punishment really does is take away incentive for being responsible for your own actions. I mean, why should I be good if I’m going to get in trouble anyway for what the kid two rows over does? Not to mention the fact, that a kid acting up in class may have bigger problems (rough home life, perhaps even abused). If that’s the case, then encouraging his/her classmates to hate him/her will only make things that much worse. I think more productive, less cruel disciplinary measures should be used, don’t you?
By SNY
June 27, 2006 03:10 PM | Link to this
Jeff,
If you did something negative to my child because another child was sleep in class you would truly hate me. Forget being nice, forget being adult, forget everything. All bets would be off. It would be me, you and the street. Do not mistreat my child because another child is acting up or acting out.
Jim d is right, you are going to have alot of irrate parents on your a*s. That makes me mad just thinking about it.
By Thomas
June 27, 2006 03:13 PM | Link to this
On another topic I told people a little about what summer school was all about. What that reporter saw is not surprising.
That sort of behavior and attitude is prevalent throughout our schools. Yes, you may have less of that attitude and behavior in the few “good” schools we have in this state, but elsewhere this is standard operating procedure.
Although schools do not want sleepers (and most teachers certainly don’t), there is little they can do about it. As a teacher I have been relatively successful these past few years having few sleepers in my fourth grade class. But I was able to set the tone in my class that sleeping is unacceptable. I had administrative and parental support. I didn’t even need to go to the stage of calling home. The child knew that his or her behind was grass if the teacher called home and said that they were sleeping in class.
However, in the rest of the free world, it is a jungle. All sorts of behavior is acceptable now. Students and parents are not held accountable now (in most places).
By jim d
June 27, 2006 03:13 PM | Link to this
Jeff, here’s the problem in a nut shell.
School ain’t the military. If you were to encourage students to handle the issue, someone would end up hurt. Not a direction I believe we need to be headed.
By jim d
June 27, 2006 03:19 PM | Link to this
mmm,
Actually, falling asleep when I was in school carried a significant consequence. We would be sent to the office where we generally had to wait for some time to see the principal. Generally long enough to miss another class and we didn’t get excused for missing it. This would affect not just your grade in the one class. We then got to stay after school to make up work we were going to get a zero for.
By Jeff
June 27, 2006 03:21 PM | Link to this
Call me crazy, but I’ve been reading up on the battles of WWII this summer. The biggest lesson I learn from everything I’m reading? When you know that the guy next to you is gonna die if you screw up, you don’t screw up. Individuals couldn’t do much of anything, but groups working cohesively could accomplish any mission set before them. 17,000 boys died on Iwo Jima proving that lesson. A couple thousand died breaching an Atlantic Wall that was proclaimed unbreachable.
Make no mistake: I’ve got to reduce a 40% failure rate to a 0% failure rate. While my bosses may accept ANY improvement, I will not. Anything above 0% failure on CRCT 2006-2007 in completely unacceptable to me. And I will use ABSOLUTELY ANY LEGAL MEANS I CAN to accomplish that mission. I found this past semester that being strict does a lot of it, but I still had a few fail. I do not mind at all if every single student in that class hates my guts. What I care about is that they achieve higher than anyone ever thought possible. The better they do, the better their chances for success later.
And if they learn the discipline in my class, other teachers won’t have to be as strict.
By call me crazy but...
June 27, 2006 03:22 PM | Link to this
Jim, I agree with you. I hate to see a breakdown on anyone’s part in the education collaboration. Teachers should awaken children who are sleeping…the school has a responsibility to teach the whole child, and there are resources if needed (counselor, social worker, psychologist, mentor, principal, etc.) There could be a bigger issue with the sleeping student….it could even be that the teachers lessons are simply boring. Just because one is fluent in content doesn’t necessarily mean their delivery is good. Another possibility…the child could have informed the teacher he didn’t feel well, and she gave him permission to rest his head; and the teacher didn’t have a responsibility to the reporter to acknowledge that when he was visiting.
Three sides to every story…your sotry, my story, and the truth.
By OldSchool
June 27, 2006 03:24 PM | Link to this
“Funny thing is that teachers will blame parents and students, parents and students will blame teachers. And not a one of you (parents, teachers or students) will acknowledge their obligation to taxpayers.”
Okay, jim d, this is for you: “Thank you, taxpayers (and that includes me) for allowing me to be gainfully employed in the business of educating your children and those of your neighbors. It is an honorable job and I promise to be as fair as I can possibly be; to engage your children in meaningful activities; to encourage them to give their best to every task; to treat them with the same respect I expect from them; to conduct myself in a professional manner at all times (even my “off” time); to be vigilant in keeping my skills updated to better serve my students; and to fulfill the everchanging responsibilities put on me by whatever governing body to the best of my ability.
In return, I would appreciate not having my chosen career painted/maligned with a broad sweeping brush when the majority of us have our hearts, heads, and goals in the right place. I would appreciate a productively involved group of parents and students, enough funding to cover my classroom needs, and maybe a simple thank you now and then…if that’s not too much to ask.
Is that better?
By jim d
June 27, 2006 03:29 PM | Link to this
Indeed, and here’s a large THANK YOU oldschool.
By SNY
June 27, 2006 03:41 PM | Link to this
Jeff,
You just don’t get it do you? Most people don’t care about all of the kids in the class, they care about their own. I was in the military so don’t give me that crap either. If I wanted my child to be treated like a recruit, I would send her to military school. So would every other parent. If you want to mandate those kinds of tactics in school then call West Point or Annapolis, not the public school sector. You try these tactics and I promise you, you will get physically hurt by someone’s child.
By Stephanie
June 27, 2006 03:49 PM | Link to this
Okay, people keep asking…teachers where would you be without the taxpayers? Uhmmm where would you and/or your children be without teachers? Hmmm get off your ego trips and quit being ignorant please.
By Jeff
June 27, 2006 04:02 PM | Link to this
SNY:
If a student touches me… or a parent threatens me… I WILL press charges, in addition to whatever the system itself does.
You sum up the entire problem with this country today: selfishness. Give me what’s mine, I don’t give a dang about anybody else. When I say that I am an Old Style Southern Gentleman, I mean exactly that: back when a man’s word was his bond and everyone was treated with respect. Back when if a neighbor was building a new barn, the entire community got together to help him. Back when men fought with honor and kept their women on a pedestal - not to demean them, but to show them how precious they were. You see, SNY, I know you’re a transplanted Yankee, but let me assure you that Chivalry is NOT dead here in the South. You may hate my methods, and that’s fine. But I WILL have my results.
If you aint the best… you aint good enough.
By SNY
June 27, 2006 04:03 PM | Link to this
Stephanie,
Let’s not get it confused okay. You really do not want to open up a discussion on where would our children be without teachers, do you? With the people that are on this post and with the risk of Mr. Liberty reading silently somewhere. Let’s not get ourselves in trouble here. The bottom line is that without the money that I have to GIVE you, you could not do your job. You complain that it isn’t enough but do you have any clue what kind of education I could pay for my child to have if I didn’t have to GIVE you $3,200 a year. I GIVE this to you and still have to pay $6000 for my child to go to private school. And to make matters worse, private school isn’t even tax deductible anymore. I guess the government thinks that if we don’t get tax credits for private school we will go back to public. Well, I went to public school with my daughter and the whole system let her down. Not just with the CRCT but with their overall attitude to someone coming into their system from another system. Everything was a fight with Gwinnett County. I truly HATE Gwinnett county and I don’t care if I have to work 3 jobs and never see my kids during the week, they will go to private school. Where will you teachers be if all of us took our child to private school? You wouldn’t be teaching in the private schools because your test scores don’t prove that you know what you are doing in the classroom. Are we parents arogant - yes, should we be - yes! Are we ego tripping - yes, should we be - yes! For those of us parents blessed enough to be able to afford private school, the public school sector will never see any of us again. For those who aren’t lucky enough, we will continue to fight for vouchers. That is my big political fight.
By jim d
June 27, 2006 04:12 PM | Link to this
Old School,
If you can get teachers to sign on to that I’ll work at getting parents signed on to the following and we may be on to something that would actually make a difference.
Hats off to teachers,
Thank all you teachers that have chosen to give of yourself to provide an education to my children and those of my neighbors. For giving up your rights to have an adult beverage or to have a date within 50 miles of where you teach for fear a student may come across you in something other than a professional atmosphere.
Thank you for spending your personal funds to assure needed materials are in the classroom. Thank you for becoming even better trained to fulfill the job for which you were hired by attending classes in your off time and often at your own expense. Thank you for taking an interest in our children’s lives and thank you most of all for putting up with the trash we elect that governs your profession.
Now all I ask is that I be treated with the same respect I give you and that you deserve, regardless as to if other parents afford you that respect. That you discontinue with the practice of defending bad teachers: and that you carry on a one on one discussion with me as an equal partner in my child’s education. And that you not paint all parents as being “them”
In return I pledge to;
1) Instruct my child in proper etiquette and manners when dealing with an adult.
2) Have my child rested for class every day.
3) Check his homework to assure he’s prepared for class
4) Keep communications open between myself and you regarding my child
5) Send said child to school every day with materials need to complete the tasks at hand.
6) Kick his butt if he fails in 1-5 above
By Pompano
June 27, 2006 04:19 PM | Link to this
Great strategy Jeff - let’s screw with the students that show up & want to learn. Definitely falls in-line with the lowest common denominator philosophy demonstrated by school Administrators.
I’ve seen Jeff’s tactics used in the workplace as well by poor managers. One employee screws up or takes advantage of something so the manager reacts by firing off memos to the entire staff. It’s a cowardly form of leadership and a HUGE de-motivator to the employees who follow rules and makes them resentful towards the company - not towards the offending employee.
By Jeff
June 27, 2006 04:19 PM | Link to this
Bad news:
I just found out that I will be only the third male teacher these kids have EVER encountered - if you count both of the male principals as teachers.
I’ve been told that I will have great latitude with these kids… now I see why. Nothing against any of my female colleagues… y’all tend to be even rougher than I am! But it DOES make the job SOOO much more challenging knowing that I AM the role model for these boys…
(Yes, I know that scares some of you.)
A shaved bald young white male teacher teaching in a majority-minority district… something tells me this next year is gonna be FUN!!! Good thing is that I know for a fact both the Principal and Super WANT me there.
Oh, and lest any of you misread my reasonings for the group treatment: Maybe I forgot to mention it recently, but part of the task on my back is not just to elevate these kids, but to help build up the entire community. For those of you scorning me right now, until you face the pressures that I am staring at dead in the eye, you have no room to talk. I’ve been in quite a few pressure cookers in my life - some of them I walked into willingly (such as this one), others less willingly. But I’ve been saying for a few weeks now that it is do or die time… I am realizing more and more how true that statement is. Failure this year affects not just me, not just my kids or my school, but the whole community. I once had responsibility for 60,000 in a very indirect, inconsequential way. Now I have rsposibility for less than 100 in a very real, very direct, very consequential way.
And I don’t know that I’m ready for it.
By SNY
June 27, 2006 04:20 PM | Link to this
Jeff,
You are right, I am from the North, Ohio actually. But that has nothing to do with how I expect my child to be treated. I am not talking about office politics here. I am talking about my child and her future and I WILL NOT have it ruined by another child and a crazy a*s teacher.
By Jeff
June 27, 2006 04:22 PM | Link to this
Jim,
I’m pretty sure that most of the teachers that blog here (yes, even me) would READILY agree with Old School, and in fact do exactly the things she pointed out.
Getting parents to sign on to yours might be the harder side of the deal.
:)
By jim d
June 27, 2006 04:24 PM | Link to this
Hey Jeff,
It’s your funeral.
By Jeff
June 27, 2006 04:27 PM | Link to this
Pompano:
Using a non-military example:
Last I checked, State Championship football teams don’t have the nicest coaches. What they do have are coaches that run the TEAM to near heat stroke when ONE player misses a block. Before you deny that, please realize that I’ve watched said teams all my life, have had close relatives on them. I KNOW how they operate… MUCH closer to Friday Night Lights than Remember the Titans…
By jim d
June 27, 2006 04:29 PM | Link to this
Jeff,
No disrespect meant, but have you eaten today? Your police state educational system is sure to be your downfall.
By Jeff
June 27, 2006 04:35 PM | Link to this
SNY:
Get your focus off YOUR child and look at what I am telling you: By focusing on the GROUP achieving, EVERY MEMBER OF SAID GROUP ACHIEVES. YOUR child hits “exceed” and so does everyone elses’!!!! THAT is my goal. My goal - and what my tactics are designed to do - is NOT to lower the standard, as with NCLB. My goal is to say “Perfection is the only thing that is acceptable, and we will ALL be perfect.”
Yes, that means I will eventually tell your daughter to help Jim son that struggles in my class - and link their grades for a few assignments through team-based approaches. But even there, BOTH students wind up achieving higher. (Don’t believe me? Ask around. Anyone who has ever tutored or taught can tell you that you don’t REALLY know something until you’ve taught it.)
Like I said: You are thinking that what I am doing is going to hurt your kid, and that simply isn’t true - not their future anyway. I’ll admit, it may ding them a few points on an assignment or two. But just as muscle has to be broken down to be made stronger, getting hit for a couple of points while tutoring will only strengthen her mathematical skills.
By jim d
June 27, 2006 04:35 PM | Link to this
Jeff,
You’re beginning to concern me. I think your goals while quite admirable are a bit unrealistic. You expect to impact a entire community when most teachers are extatic over the ability to affect a handful of students.
I fear you may be setting yourself up for a large disapointment.
By Jeff
June 27, 2006 04:41 PM | Link to this
Could it be that my former job as a Wilderness counselor is finally starting to wear off on me - a year after I left said job? I admit: when I was there, they introduced me to the whole group-focus concept, and I thought they were just as crazy then as y’all think I am now. BUT IT WORKS. They are primarily a DOJ-based camp. (Think private YDC) And their recidivism rate is among the LOWEST of ANY DOJ program.
The sad thing, as I keep pointing out, is that it wasn’t too long ago that the approaches I’m accepting were commonly accepted. These concepts built the Atomic Bomb, won WWII, and landed us on the moon. Tell me, can you name anything comparable that an American has done since 1968 or so?
By SET
June 27, 2006 04:48 PM | Link to this
The sleeping child should be awakened. No one should be allowed to sleep in a classroom in session - even during a movie.
After this happens a number of times with the same child, the child should be sent to the office for handling. There are a number of reasons why a child would be falling asleep during the day and many of them would require a CPS referral, There can be health problems (sleep apnea) and other medical problems that could be dangerous. They could be on legal or illegal drugs and have miscalculated their dosages. Let the office deal with it.
The teachers don’t have the time to get into the kid’s life beyond a certain point. This is what you have a Dean of Boys/Girls for. Or we used to anyway.
By now the school administrations have fired the school nurses, wiped out most of the counselors, and maybe they will outsource the Deans to India next.
Brave New World!
By Jeff
June 27, 2006 04:49 PM | Link to this
Jim:
I’m lucky in that it is a tiny town. Admittedly, if I was trying to change a town even the size of my current town, it would destroy me. (As even this undertaking may well do.)
While I’m sure I don’t FULLY realize everything I’m getting myself into, I do have a decent idea. Hence my MUY GRANDE front but just as large doubts underneath. Will I achieve everything that I’m setting out to do? I don’t know. I honestly don’t. But I can tell you and everyone else this: I am going to give it every ounce of my being. If I am destroyed but the goal is realized, it will have been worth it.
Note that when I say this though I’m still going to be taking care of myself. I’m a FIRM believer in that a teacher’s weekends are their own, and suffice it to say there’s a REASON I’m not living in the twon I’ll be teaching in, or even the county. And I’ve already set my sights on a goal for next summer that has EVERYTHING to do with FORGETTING teaching for a few weeks! (Quite a few Kenny Chesney songs sum up my intentions…)
By jim d
June 27, 2006 04:51 PM | Link to this
Learning is not nor has it ever been a team sport. Each child is an individual with different abilities and needs. Treating them all the same and holding the same expectations for them to all excell at whatever you are attempting to teach is going to let all of them down. Those at the bottom will feel they aren’t good enough and those at the top will feel neglected.
Jeff, just my personal opinion, your plan is doomed. But since it is not my child involved, Best of luck.
By OldSchool
June 27, 2006 04:52 PM | Link to this
Lord, grant me patience…
Gentlemen, we digress. The topic is about waking/not waking sleeping students. In my own paragraphs I preach a mighty sermon. In real life situations, I deal with whatever arises the best way I can. Every week, every day, every class, every moment, every student is different and I accept any challenge that may arise whether it be a sleeping student or a very wide awake student.
What I cannot do is adequately explain or describe here in the anonimity of cyberspace exactly what I do or say in any situation because I’m human and I react as such. I pause for a breath when the challenge is a volatile one to make a wise choice as best I can. I do pause for a breath when the situation is totally ridiculous and when it calls for unthinking action (I’ve stopped a boy from braining another with a drafting stool) I act immediately.
I handle sleeping students in whatever manner I deem appropriate for the circumstances/conditions in my class at that time. I’m just glad sleeping isn’t a big problem for me.
Now, that being said, may I suggest we all take a nap? I think we could all use one!
By Pompano
June 27, 2006 04:52 PM | Link to this
Jeff - while you apparently have watched many football coaches in action, you have missed the point and do not “KNOW how they operate”.
While a coach of a team sport may require repetition to drive excellence, I can guarantee you that not a single successful team sports coach in High School athletics delegates the matter of punishment & discipline to their students. All players might suffer from a lack of performance by a team-mate, but they do not suffer at the hands of a coach due to disciplinary problems of other students.
By Leia
June 27, 2006 04:55 PM | Link to this
SNY - speaking for myself, if you took the $3200 you GIVE (haha) me away, I would be fine! I’d either go teach in a private school or a university! I could go back to software engineering. Trust me; I’d be fine.
And, don’t get it twisted - the SAME teachers teach in private schools and public schools! The only reason many don’t go to private schools is because the salary is lower! And FYI - if private school teachers were superior, why don’t they require them to be certified? The only difference is that the parents are typically more involved in the education of their students because they are paying for it!
By College Prof
June 27, 2006 04:56 PM | Link to this
In terms of whether you wish to wake students. As a college professor I do not think of it as my job to keep my students awake beyond providing an engaging learning environment. This attitude is shared by a number of my colleagues.
While I understand that such an attitude may not be the best approach when attempting to teach students how to interact positively in such a learning environment, I meet my students only two or three times a week and do not have the time to make up for their preparational shortcomings, whether that be in not getting enough sleep to participate constructively in class or in not having read the required material before our discussion of it.
Students coming from a high school environment would be best served to be prepared for this reality. I see far too many students at my two year institution who have well learned habits that interfere with their ability to be successful. If students are not academically literate in what it takes to be successful in college, they shouldn’t be given the impression that they are. While waking a middle school student or even a freshman or sophomore in high school may be appropriate, I would ask educators at the junior and senior level whether they are enabling students who have bad habits and poor time and life management skills to move forward into a place that has little tolerance for such things.
By jim d
June 27, 2006 04:57 PM | Link to this
Jeff,
Allow me to point out that all the great co-operative accomplishments, even the wilderness training, you mention were accomplished by people that WANTED to participate. That in itself is a great motivator.
I really doubt you’ll get lucky enough to draw that kind of crowd in a public school.
By jim d
June 27, 2006 05:00 PM | Link to this
Thanks old school,
This young man concerns me. He’s our future. But I’ll take a nap.
Bye.
By Jeff
June 27, 2006 05:05 PM | Link to this
Jim:
As far as my kids from the Wilderness camp: I can GAURANDANGTEE you that most of them did NOT want to be there.
Are you telling me that every Marine on Iwo wanted to be there? That every person working under Oppenheimner wanted to be there? That the astronauts that fried on Apollo 1 wanted to be sitting on that pyre?
No, sir. Not every great achievement has been made because people WANTED to work together. They have been made because people DID work together, REGARDLESS of whether tbey wanted to or not.
By Manny
June 27, 2006 05:09 PM | Link to this
SNY - If you would work 3 jobs and risk not seeing your child, I think you’re crazy! I’m sorry that you think that an entire school system let your daughter down (not really!), but, the fact remains, your daughter didn’t cut the mustard! Send her back to private school with the hugs and the love because if she doesn’t see you because you’re working 3 jobs to be able to say that she goes to Greater Christian St. Whomever Private School, she’ll at least get it from somewhere.
By Jeff
June 27, 2006 05:10 PM | Link to this
Pompano,
Sorry. I may have been unclear. Discipline and punishment will NOT be handled by students. That will be MY perview or someone above me. But peer pressure RARELY takes the form of overt punishment. If it does, you have my word that I will deal with it JUST as severely as if it were any other fight. The peer pressure I’m referring to is more the “silent treatment” that adolescent girls are so famous for. Maybe a rebuke by a friend or popular classmate. That type stuff.
By Pompano
June 27, 2006 05:11 PM | Link to this
Leia - my daughter attends private school and I agree with you 100%. Her teachers are not any more talented or dedicated than the good teachers in the public school system.
However, one of the largest differences I’ve noticed is that +80% of the moms are at-home mothers with the time to be much more involved in their children’s lives and educations. No amount of school funding increases will ever compensate for that.
By Jeff
June 27, 2006 05:18 PM | Link to this
Pompano:
Agreed.
Suffice it to say that I worked in a private school as a teacher for a few weeks before I landed my public school gig… FAR easier for me to get in there. When I asked them if it would be a problem that I wasn’t certified, they replied that nobody at the school was and that they didn’t have to be… scared the LIVING CRAP out of me!
By Leia
June 27, 2006 05:18 PM | Link to this
Pompano - Amen!
By OldSchool
June 27, 2006 05:24 PM | Link to this
Awww…c’mon jim d, Jeff is just young and passionate about teaching. I also get a sense from his posts that he is also flexible. It is that flexibility that will allow him to continue to work hard for his students and who knows, they just might respond.
I remember the days of yore when I was a young idealistic teacher. I moved mountains. Now I marvel in disbelief when a parent tells me how much his difficult student loved my class.
(On an unrelated note: I actually prefer Instructor to Teacher. I was hired out of industry as were many of my vocational (now CTAE) colleagues. We were hired for our expertise and expected to pick up some education courses along the way. I already had the education degree in Industrial Arts but was mapping.)
Jeff, keep your eyes on the prize. You’ll make a big difference in your new school. I honestly believe there will be more conscious students than unconscious ones and more eager to learn than disruptive. Set your own climate and shine!
By Leia
June 27, 2006 05:24 PM | Link to this
And one more thing - some of the teachers in private schools are the ones who couldn’t pass the Praxis exam within 2 years - IN THEIR OWN CONTENT FIELD! So, their public school contract was not renewed and they trotted down to the nearest private school and got a job immediately! How scary is that?
By OldSchool
June 27, 2006 05:31 PM | Link to this
WARNING! This comment is TOTALLY off topic but I just had to share with someone!
I just got off the phone with my student who is in the Design class of this summer’s Governors Honors Program. He called to fill me in on the class and to let me know he really likes the instructor who was in MY GHP Design class some years back when I was the instructor! He is also taking a Fitness minor and one of the instructors was also my student in Engineering Drawing during his high school career! Small world!
Best part of the conversation: he thanked me for nominating and supporting him. Folks, this student is the whole package- smart, motivated, polite, funny, respectful…in Southern words, he has a good mama!
I’m soaring!
By HB
June 27, 2006 05:34 PM | Link to this
Jeff, you really should work on your analogies. The Apollo 1 crew absolutely wanted to be astronauts and to work together. Of course, they didn’t want to die in a horrific accident, but they and the other astronauts did want to be a part of manned space exploration. After their deaths, the rest of the astronauts worked together in teams to overhaul the spacecraft to improve the program because they wanted the program to go on and to travel to the moon themselves. They CHOSE to be part of that great team.
A better parallel to what you propose to do (punish all students for one’s misbehavior): an arrogant administrator locks all the astronauts in the room and tells them to solve a problem. When one blows the assignment off, he docks everyone’s pay. I bet that’d go over really well and build team morale… Please! If one man didn’t do his job, the whole team wasn’t punished. He’d just be passed over for missions or eventually cut to make way for one of the many other talented people who dreamed of his job. Not an option, of course, in a public classroom. I think you need to rethink your strategy.
By Jeff
June 27, 2006 05:39 PM | Link to this
Old School,
You got me pegged as far as the flexibility goes. My standards are excruciating, but I don’t just abandon my kids. I simply don’t accept the indoctrination that student teaching gives that if a college professor says it won’t work then it won’t work.
I like to say that I am conventional with a twist. In that, I mean that my goals and values are the same ones virtually everyone else has as far as what needs to happen. Where I differ from most people is that I have no problem giving any method a try, starting with what I think will work and working backwards. If I’m proven wrong, I can accept that. Once I find something that works, it becomes my default paradigm. That said, I TRIED being nice. I TRIED a lot of the strategies that college professors - and even some on this blog - have suggested. They all failed me. My hardcore discipline worked. Students hated it, parents seemed to like it - for the most part - and it got the results we all wanted. (Other than a couple of kids whose parents thought they were straight A students failing EOCT. But those same students are the ones that would never submit to my discipline…)
By Janine
June 27, 2006 05:57 PM | Link to this
As a former private school teacher,I have to tell you that in private school the pay as well as benefits are lower, much lower. And actually, though you may think that’s where the best, most qualified teachers are , that is not true. Not that some of the teachers aren’t wonderful…it’s just that good teachers usually go where they can get the best benefits and money..There are many teachers who go to private schools because it so difficult to teach in public schools and they are willing to give up the money for some modicum of sanity…THe fact is that the students in private schools are all tested before they are admitted and are not admitted unless they make a very high score on the entrance exams….THerefore, as a Harvard study last year revealed, the most instruction is actually going on at low performing schools….high performing schools, both private and public, seem to be just maintaining what they started with…
By RecentlyRetired Teacher
June 27, 2006 06:15 PM | Link to this
I taught 5th grade for 30years, and unfortunately, this is the norm for so many students. The parents don’t care enough to see that the child gets to bed on time and it is true that these kids are so helplessly behind that they will likely never catch up. Some students even fall asleep during the administration of tests such as the CRCT. After exhausting ALL OTHER avenues of help for thses students, I finally started sending the chronic sleepers to the school nurse so that she could call the parents every time it happened and inform them that a lack of sleep was detrimental to the kid’s health.
By Stephanie
June 27, 2006 06:48 PM | Link to this
SNY…you assume too often. I am not a teacher, I only speak the truth, if it doesn’t agree with you get over it. I’ll go ahead and assume you are one of those nutso liberals with a lack of common sense. :)
By Sam
June 27, 2006 06:50 PM | Link to this
Jeff, hold tight to your end-vision. And, if you’re open to a different paradigm for achieving it, then please go here… www.FromLtoJ.com.
Jim d, I invite you to go, too.
By Sam
June 27, 2006 06:53 PM | Link to this
Jeff, hold tight to your end-vision. And, if you’re open to a different paradigm for achieving it, then please go here… www.FromLtoJ.com
Jim d, I invite you to go, too.
By Laura
June 27, 2006 07:05 PM | Link to this
SNY - I’m just wondering - what crappy private school are you sending your daughter to for only $6000 a year? Is it SACS accredited? And furthermore, you can’t have it both ways - if your daughter failing that incredibly easy CRCT is no indication of her skill set, then you can’t use it as a barometer for the qualifications of Gwinnett County (or any county) teachers! And, no - I’m not a teacher!
By Nja
June 27, 2006 07:35 PM | Link to this
Hmm. A school costs $6000 and that makes it crappy? Interesting.
On another note. There are many private school teachers who aren’t certified. In fact from what I have seen- most arent. BUT what about the certified teachers in public school who are horrible teachers? Personally, I don’t knock anyone for what they are doing.
My child is in private school and it is less than $6000- yes they are accredited but I guess since I don’t pay that much my child attends a crappy school. However comparing the schools curriculum to that of public school - the work he does during the school year is a grade and a half higher compared to public school expectations.
I’m not saying all of this to knock public schools because I am an employee. I’m saying this to say- do what is best for your child.
By Leia
June 27, 2006 07:49 PM | Link to this
Nja et. al. - I guess it’s a matter of location and wants/needs. The only private schools I would have considered putting my daughters in cost about $14,000 a year. The ones that cost $6,000 or less were crappy! I do what is best for my girls too. As a teacher, I can supplement what they do in school and “dictate” what classes they get. So, what they’re learning is beyond the county curriculum. Since I’m affiliated with Georgia Tech, they also get to do cool things like build Hovercrafts, learn some computer programming, and were introduced to forensic science! All for “free”!
By Nja
June 27, 2006 08:10 PM | Link to this
Laura/ Leia?? Yes, it is a matter of wants and needs. However to assume that a private school is crappy because she only pays $6000 is well… you know what they say about people who assume.
I’m glad your girls are getting such a wonderful education- all children need this and it occurs in different learning environments.
By Janine
June 27, 2006 08:16 PM | Link to this
Ok everybody…LEt me share this one more time…It is the mantra for many public school teachers who have taught the last 30 years and know what public education use to be and can be…..they are approaching retirement now….THE FIRST 10 YEARS YOU TEACH, YOU THINK YOU CAN HELP THE CHILDREN….THE SECOND 10 YEARS YOU TEACH, YOU THINK YOU CAN CHANGE THE SYSTEM….THE THIRD 10 YEARS YOU TEACH, ALL YOU WANT TO DO IS GET THE H—-OUT OF THERE AND HOPE YOUR GRANDCHILDREN GO TO PRIVATE SCHOOL!!!!!
By Leia
June 27, 2006 08:24 PM | Link to this
Nja - I wasn’t the one who originally called the $6,000 private school crappy, but, I just threw in my 2 cents!
By Robert
June 27, 2006 08:48 PM | Link to this
I will only wake the student if I know an administrator is coming into the room (and sometimes not even then). Otherwise, I simply call the parent during my planning period and document. It is not my job to be an alarm clock, it is my job to teach.
I do my lesson plans, I teach and have activities for the students, I assign and grade work, I assess student knowledge. No where have I ever read that it is the teachers job to wake up students. And, it is ridiculous for anyone to expect that of a professional educator. I come to school ready to do my job. The student should come to school ready to do theirs! If a student does not want to learn for whatever reason then there is very very little a teacher can do to force it.
What would happen if I slept during class?
I used to send students out of my room if they slept. My expectations were that if they wanted to sleep they could do it in the principals office. Well, all that happened was they sent the offender right back into my room and the student went right back to sleep.
One teacher in my school was fired for tapping a sleeping student on the shoulder.
And for those posters still trying to make an honest attempt at communicating with jim d, forget it. He is impossible and makes no sense. He has absolutely no idea how out of control it has become and has a very idealized world that he lives in.
By SET
June 27, 2006 08:57 PM | Link to this
Robert,
What really riles me about these rotten public schools is that the teachers can’t just quit when they are invested in the retirement system - the last years are the years that provide the real bulk of the retirement.
So when the school goes to hell the teachers with 25 years or so invested might have to stay to finish their retirement.
So you can’t get the administration to respond and you can’t afford to walk away. Anybody who might be thinking about this career should take note.
Administration won’t improve the school if their jobs are tied to anything other than the academic performance of the kids. But now we have all this NCLB testing. It’ll be interesting to see where all this ends.
By Terri
June 27, 2006 09:18 PM | Link to this
I am a teacher that taught in private schools for 10 years (both parochial and secular) and for the past 8 years have taught in an urban public school. In my experience teachers in private schools are state certified, with the exception of religion teachers who are usually certified by the church. Good and bad teachers are found in both settings.
By jim d
June 28, 2006 08:06 AM | Link to this
Robert,
In my continuing efforts to respect Patti’s blog I’ve found it best to generally ignore your comments and personal attacks. However, I’d be remiss to not thank you for your most recent comments.
So Thank You for demonstrating the attitude that I’ve attempted to describe that some teachers have towards anyone who is not an educator. Your comments demonstrate this pretentious attitude far better than my words ever could.
While I’m quite confident that you are in all probability a decent teacher, might I suggest a career move to school administration? From all outward appearances, your imperious manner would be salutary of this type of a position.
By Karen Armsby
June 28, 2006 08:22 AM | Link to this
IMHO a sleeping student is an absent student, as his mind is not in attendance. Give him a zero for the time he is asleep, or for the work he is missing while napping. My kids’ high school called home and left a voice message whenever a student was absent. I think the same call and message should be made whenever the student sleeps in class and is absent for that period. It appears from comments above that you teachers risk your jobs or being accused of scaring the student to death if you attempt to wake the student out of a sound sleep. I say let the the student sleep and take responsibility for his own actions.
By Leia
June 28, 2006 09:00 AM | Link to this
Karen Armsby - if you are a teacher in Gwinnett County and employed your method of giving a sleeping student a zero, you’d be looking for a new job in another county! Don’t you remember the Doc Neace case from Dacula High School?
By mike roberts
June 28, 2006 09:22 AM | Link to this
any student who wishes to sleep in a classroom could not have got a good night sleep the night before and a late night was perhaps the reason. any sleeping student in a classroom should be awaken and be asked what the problem is.any classroom is meant for studying and not a bedroom.
By SNY
June 28, 2006 09:25 AM | Link to this
I’m Back,
Stephani/Laura & Leia,
My kid is a great, smart and energetic kid. I truly do not believe that the private christian school that she will be attending is crappy because I only pay $6000. That is just tuition fees, that does not include the martriculation fees and lunch fees and everyother fee you could possible think of. By the end of the school year I have probably spent more than 15,000 - 16,000 dollars. Now, I took my child out of private school last year to give public school a chance, and because I had decided to become A SAHM. Well, I changed my mind. Gwinnett stinks!! Period. Enough said.
All of the teachers that my daughter had from K-4 thru 2nd grad had their Masters degree. The only teacher so far that hasn’t was her 3rd grade public school teacher. I don’t know where your kids go to school and I don’t care but it seems to me that you are happy where you are. I’m glad about that. Now, I need to take my child back to where we are happy and she is learning. Now, I understand we have to work on the inferential questions on the CRCT because she failed those - and only those - questions on the CRCT. She is reading on a 5th grade level, her math scores are on the 5th grade level and her love of God is outrageous. So, that goes to show you people that the CRCT is not the be-all-end-all that educators (minus teachers) think that it is. The only questions that my daughter missed on the reading part of the CRCT were the inferential questions. She missed every single one of them. That tells me that she didn’t comprehend one concept. Not that she is stupid.
Leia, Now that you have let it be known that you are affiliated with GA Tech I understand you alot better. I have never met anyone from GA Tech that didn’t think that there was a slight possiblility that they could be wrong. You are fitting in with that group perfectly.
FYI - It is not easy to get a teaching position at the school where my daughter will be attending. They do make you have your accrediation and you have to be ABEKA certified as well. On the ITBS my daughter has scored at least 1 full grade ahead every year. It is not my child or the private school. It it the crappy teacher that she had this year. Maybe there are good teachers in Gwinnett county but I am not willing to find out at my daughters expense for another year. And yes, I was an active parent at school and with the PTA.
By Karen Armsby
June 28, 2006 09:45 AM | Link to this
Leia! Guess what? I started blogging on Get Schooled last May when Doc Neace was going through his trouble at Dacula HS. My kids had Doc Neace for a teacher, and I wrote letters to the editor, to the Gwinnett Co. School Bd. mmebers, to Superintendent Wilbanks, and to the State School Bd members all in support of Doc Neace. I attended the eight hour school board hearing where Doc Neace was railroaded out of his job. I stated this same opinion about sleeping being akin to absenteeism last year when I was blogging. I am NOT a teacher, just a mom with some common sense!
By Robert
June 28, 2006 11:43 AM | Link to this
Jim d….
Be honest and answer a few questions:
When was the last time that you spent any significant time in any public school classroom (please also include school system name)? What experience (and how recent was it) do you have to support your positions? What formal training do you have in the areas of epistomology or pedagogy do you have (or do you even know what these mean)?
Thanks.
By Robert
June 28, 2006 11:45 AM | Link to this
SNY -
I got my bachelors degree from GA Tech and take great offense to your sweeping generalization/categorization of all Tech people. Your statement is paramount to me saying that all UGA people are dumb red necks.
I think that an appology is in order.
By call me crazy but...
June 28, 2006 12:07 PM | Link to this
SNY, Get over it. You’ve been defending your original statement for two days now. If you don’t want to hear the opinion of others, don’t put your opinion and information out here for people to respond. You’ve taken over two blogs with the same message, but continue to argue a moot point. You’ve blamed your child’s CRCT score on everybody and everything; but if she’s always been in private school with such wonderful teachers and programs, 8 months (August through April) in public school didn’t screw up her test score. The wonderful private school should have prepared her for that. Georgia Standard ELA2R4 (a second grade standard) teaches inference; so maybe had your child been in public school in second grade she would have gotten the lesson that she needed. Give the shoe to the person it fits.
By decaturparent
June 28, 2006 12:16 PM | Link to this
Robert…
I’m a ramblin’ wreck from GA Tech and a he_uva engineer
A Heuva, Heuva, Huva, Huva, H_uva engineer
Like all the jolly good fellas I drink my whiskey clear
Cause I’m a ramblin’ wreck from GA Tech and a h__uva engineer
My hub is a GA Tech gu, and he thinks he’s right all the time too… The truth is that only Agnes Scott girls are right all the time - and I keep trying to convince him of that! ;)
By jim d
June 28, 2006 12:25 PM | Link to this
Robert,
I’ll give it a shot.
Never heard of “epistomology”
But epistemology (if that’s what you meant) is the study or a theory of the nature and grounds of knowledge, and of course pedagogy is a word used to describe the art, science, or profession of teaching.
I have NO Formal training in either area other than a life long desire to learn. I do however have several immidiate family members that have a combined total of 62 years in the field of education. My involvement has been as a parent and my time in the class room has been limited. I do however serve on some executive school committee’s and speak frequently to school administrators and teachers regarding educational issues.
I also work extensively with teenage youth outside of the formal educational setting, teaching life long skills, as a volunteer.
Your turn to be honest.
Why are you so defensive.
What training do you have that allows you to know my children and what is best for them, better than I do?
What is it about active concerned parents that really bothers you to the point you must constantly attempt to belittle them?
And Why on earth would you admit being a GT grad?
By dan
June 28, 2006 12:29 PM | Link to this
Call me crazy, Finally somebody’s got it right. SNY is probably drafting a blog right now telling you how wrong you are and I bet she she mentions how great her daughters private schools is somewhere in her blog. To tell you the truth I feel sorry for her and her daughter.
By dan
June 28, 2006 01:05 PM | Link to this
I always make them stand if they try to sleep. This always seems to work but I will probably get fired for it one day. Also, I sometimes will make the kid sing Nursery Rhyme in front of the class if they sleep. This usually wakes them up but I will probably get fired for that one day. When they talk in class or refused to do what I ask I make them stand up at a lab area. One day I will probably be fired for that though. If I gave them a zero for the day for not doing there work I would definately be fired for that. If I let them sleep and ignore them I could be fired or repremanded for that.
By call me crazy but...
June 28, 2006 01:23 PM | Link to this
I think, as Old School offered, that every situation is different; and we as humans, react differently as the situation varies.
By Leia
June 28, 2006 01:24 PM | Link to this
SNY - Sticks and stones, dearheart! Don’t hate me because I’m a proud alum of Tech! Don’t make broad generalizations about any group of people. That’s ignorant. Would you want your daughter grouped with the other “dumb” kids who couldn’t pass the CRCT? Exactly.
Jim D - How ironic it is that you would correct Robert’s spelling of epistemology (probably when you looked it up to see what it meant!) and then turned around and spelled immediate incorrectly! I love karma!
By another teacher
June 28, 2006 01:41 PM | Link to this
Back on topic: I had a student (high school level) several years ago, and every time he fell asleep the other students would ask me not to wake him up. His behavior was absolutely atrocious, and when he was awake he took time away from those who wanted to learn.
It would be great if all I had to do was call his parents and the problem would be solved. However, this was not the case here. It would also be great if administration dealt with bad behavior. Also not the case.
By guess who
June 28, 2006 01:42 PM | Link to this
SNY: Based on her CRCT scores and your own description, your daughter sounds like one of those crazy religious zealots who can’t think for themselves or form their own opinions.
By jim d
June 28, 2006 01:48 PM | Link to this
LOL. Leia, you haven’t seen anything yet! Stick around it gets better. ;-)
I actually did know the words though and what I perceived as a condescending tone to his question made me correct the spelling.
I of all people am not a blog spelling cop. LOL
By SNY
June 28, 2006 01:52 PM | Link to this
CMC and Dan,
Neither of you have to feel sorry for my daughter. God will take good care of her and me. If you read her scores and you read my earlier comments, I am taking responsibility for those 3 little points that she was off on the CRCT. I blame myself and beat myself up more than any of you could so back off.
As for the Ga Tech comment, I am only speaking of the dealings with Ga Tech grads. I used to work with - not for - one and he was the most anal person I have met in my 32 years on this earth. If I offended anyone, oops, sorry. Just going on personal experience.
By SNY
June 28, 2006 02:04 PM | Link to this
Guess who,
My child is 8, she isn’t old enough to be a crazy religious zealot. And trust me, she can think for herself. She asked to go to public school after 4 years of private, she got to go. She liked it except for the fact that she wasn’t used to not celebrating certain holidays. (I won’t mention the actual names of holidays because I truly do not want to offend anyone). That was one of the hardest things for her to get over. Then it was the disruptive behavior in public school over private school. I am not saying that public school parents don’t care because all of you are on this blog and I’m sure some of you are public school parents as well as teachers, but what I have seen is that the parents are more involved in the private school that we attend. I’m not saying all private schools have a great parent turnout, I’m saying the one we attend does. But at the public school my kid went to last year, I was at every PTA meeting and maybe 4 or 5 parents showed up. Even then that included me, my husband, and another kids mom and dad. At the private school, it was standing room only to find out what is going on at the school. Also, when the private school teachers say that they are going to call home, they do. My daughters teacher last year threatened to call me and didn’t. How am I suppose to help her if she doesn’t follow through.
Question for teachers, if you need to call a kids parent for any reason, is it difficult for you to find time during the day to call? (Real question, not being a smart*ss here.)
Dan,
Why would you get fired for making a kid stand up if they are sleeping? Are the parents and the school districts being that strict on teachers these days?
By Leia
June 28, 2006 02:08 PM | Link to this
SNY - what a heartfelt apology! It’s even worse now; you made a generalization based on your experience with ONE person! Wow. I see why your daughter missed the questions on inference!
By Manny
June 28, 2006 02:15 PM | Link to this
SNY - I teach high school science courses. I get one planning period per day. That is 53 minutes to: make phone calls, make copies, update my website, grade papers, have conferences with parents who want to meet during the school day; and use the restroom. So, if I have 140 students, and I teach lower level science courses where you typically find the majority of your disicipline problems, yes - it is extremely hard to contact all of those parents. Then, you reach a parent and you have to listen to the “I’m a single mother and I don’t know what to do” speech for 20 minutes. That leaves you with 33 minutes to get the rest of the aforementioned tasks completed.
Trust me, our jobs (plural) are not as easy as one would think. You only have one to concern yourself with. We have over 100 and don’t have the time to call each and every time there is a problem. I personally prefer to email the parents. Way off-topic, but, I just couldn’t resist answering your question. And, it did sound like you were just being a smarta**.
By Manny
June 28, 2006 02:19 PM | Link to this
Oh yeah - we have to share one telephone with all of the other teachers in our department. So, I may have to wait until the other 4 teachers who have the same planning period as I do finish their phone calls before I can even get to the phone!
By SNY
June 28, 2006 02:20 PM | Link to this
Leia,
No I didn’t, I only gave you one example.
By call me crazy but...
June 28, 2006 02:21 PM | Link to this
SNY, I don’t feel sorry for you nor your child. That wasn’t my statement. I only pointed out facts. Inference is taught in 2nd grade in Georgia public schools (www.georgiastandards.org). Please don’t drag me into you all’s personal trivialities. I’m here for the issues that Patti is blogging.
By Just Wondering
June 28, 2006 02:23 PM | Link to this
Since this blog (and several others) have turned into the SNY Show, I have a question - if your daughter fails a standardized test in private school (if she even has to take one)- are you going to snatch her out of that school and put her back in public school or homeschool her?
By Robert
June 28, 2006 02:25 PM | Link to this
jim d -
I am not defensive at all. I simply call it like I see it, and you do seem to state opinions from an idealized world. A world where all parents care and all students want to learn. A world where if anything goes wrong it is always the classroom teachers fault. A world where parents ensure that their child does their homework every night and also studies on top of that. A world where administrators support teachers and help the educational process.
I have never ever stated that I know your children better than you. What a ridiculous statement for you to make (why I am not surprised?).
Concerned parents do not bother me at all. I love concerned parents - as far as parents making sure that their child does their school work, makes good grades, and so on. It is when “concerned parents” make outlandish remarks about a teachers classroom based on nothing more than what their child says that bothers me. These “concerned parents” first need to make sure that their child is doing the work. Then, if they like, they can come into the classroom and get a first hand account of the teacher, the classroom, and also of what their darling is doing in the classroom.
The problem that I have with certain types of “concerned parents” is that they want to point the finger at the school, the teacher, the administration, and at everyone else for their child’s failure without first making sure that they and their child are doing their part. It all begins in the home.
Finally, I do not belittle concerned parents. As I stated in a prior paragraph, I absolutely love concerned parents when they are concerned for the right reasons. I frequently meet with concerned parents and help them learn how to help their child - study skills, etc.
You in your posts, however, always come from a similar position that wants to blame everything on the teacher.
Finally, in response to your questions for me, I am quite proud of being a GA Tech grad. It is an accomplishment that I am sure that you could never achieve.
My dear Jim, because you have family members in education does not besote any knowledge or experience of education unto you. You are so silly. You think that your DNA makes you an expert in education?
Good job on being a spelling cop. LOL!!
My advice to you is to spend time in a general level public high school classroom, observing for a time - about a week. Sit in the back and observe the behavior of the students. Watch the effort that the teacher goes through. This will give you a small window through which you will view the true education world, and I would bet that some of your ‘opinions’ will change significantly. Otherwise, you really have no clue about reality and are continuing on your ‘ideal’ world perspective.
By SNY
June 28, 2006 03:07 PM | Link to this
Manny,
I really wasn’t being smart - sorry if it came across that way, really.
I guess it is hard for me to understand because my daughter is in elementary school and her teacher only had 19 students in her class this year. For high school teachers, now that you’ve explained it, it makes sense but what about you elementary school teachers. Help me understand why it is so hard for you to call a parent if you really need to. Or even email them like Manny suggests. My daughters teacher did none of this. Although she did send a folder home on Fridays.
By Just Wondering
June 28, 2006 03:28 PM | Link to this
SNY - we elementary school teachers are “booked” during the day too, but, of course, we could find time after school to call a parent. The truth is - I suspect that your daughter’s teacher just didn’t want to speak with you! Unfortunately, there are some parents who teachers avoid like the plague, and, if you are the same in person as you are on the blogs - you are one of these parents.
By OldSchool
June 28, 2006 03:54 PM | Link to this
SNY- In my 32 years of teaching, I’ve never had a planning period during the school day. I have always taught an “extended day.” Until 1996, that meant I had 6- one hour classes, 3- 2 hour classes, and 2- 3 hour classes…every day. The way our school day was constructed, we had a 10 minute break between 2nd and 3rd and a 15 minute break between 5th and 6th with a 20 minute lunch break somewhere between 11:30 a.m. and 1:00 p.m. For some reason I always had students in my lab during breaks and was not allowed to leave them unattended. That meant I had to fit eating and a pit stop into my 20 minutes. Phone calls had to wait until after 3:30 if I wasn’t in a meeting or parent/teacher conference. Now we are on block and I teach all 4 blocks but have 30 minutes for lunch. Fortunately(?) the phone is in the workroom right off my lab so I can give up a few minutes to call if I need to or wait until after 4 when my day is done. I can’t make long distance calls from the workroom and many of my parents work in neighboring counties or across the Fla. line.
Email works when parents will give me an email address or I have no problem with them just dropping by my lab. I won’t discuss their student with them away from school (grocery store, football game, bar…just kidding!)
By jim d
June 28, 2006 04:00 PM | Link to this
Robert,
I will give your suggestions serious consideration.
I’m a bit confused though with your statement; “You in your posts, however, always come from a similar position that wants to blame everything on the teacher”
In my origional post on this blog I commented;
“Yes I cringe and yes the teacher does have an obligation, they’re being paid to teach. However, the student has an obligation to learn and the parents have an equal obligation to send the child to school prepared to learn. I cringe whenever I see any one portion of this formula break down”
I guess I just fail to see the merit in your comment. Would you take a moment to explain how this is laying blame on a teacher in order that I may stop sounding like that is what I’m doing?
Thanks, and HAGD.
By SNY
June 28, 2006 04:07 PM | Link to this
Just Wondering,
I wouldn’t be this way if everyone that I spoke with in Gwinnett County’s school system didn’t insist that they were the best and that no one is better. From the moment my daughter stepped in this woman’s class the first day of school, she was distant towards her. Everything was a fight. She didn’t want my child to write in cursive because the other kids hadn’t learned yet. I had to go over her head to the AP and from that moment on she didn’t seem to be the right fit for us. Gwinnett county doesn’t like anything different from them. If you grow up in Gwinnett county schools then they think that you know all that you need to know. They are really proud of themselves up there in North Gwinnett.
I never had 1 problem with a private school teacher. NOT ONE!! They knew that they could count on me for anything. From extra supplies to my time for a Xmas show or just to sit in the class during teacher appreciation lunch day. I was there for my kids teacher and everyother teacher 100%. I took off of work, I stayed late, I cut out tree leaves and kids pictures and hung paper and helped with class boards. You name it I was there. I may come across harsh on the blog, but it is because of pure frustration with Gwinnett county and my daughters former teacher. I know not all public school teachers are horrible. I just don’t want to take the chance that my daughter will get ANOTHER one. What is so wrong with that? Wouldn’t you guys want to try and protect your kids if you could?
By Just Wondering
June 28, 2006 04:39 PM | Link to this
SNY - thanks for the diatribe, but, you didn’t come close to answering my question!
And, I have another one for you to ignore - if your daughter was so completely happy in private school, and you never had one problem - why did you take her out in the first place, because she asked you to? You listen to a 2nd grader about potentially life-altering decisions? Wow.
By the way, you contradict yourself (badly!) in your last post. You base your opinion of Gwinnett County (the whole county!) on one teacher. Again - wow.
Yeah, that teacher just didn’t want to speak with you!
By SNY's Boss
June 28, 2006 04:44 PM | Link to this
SNY has more than likely left work already. That the only place she blogs…hummmm, when does she actually work?????
By Leia
June 28, 2006 05:40 PM | Link to this
Karen Armsby - I just saw your post about Doc Neace. Good for you! I met him once and he was extremely smart. I’m glad he had the support of at least one local parent.
By Karen Armsby
June 29, 2006 08:23 AM | Link to this
Leia, Doc Neace had the support of hundreds of parents, students and former teacher colleagues, those who had already transferred to get away from the oppressive policies of the principal. Plain and simple, the principal engineered Doc’s departure. Any reasonable principal would have sat down with his teacher to discuss the problem. Instead he met first and talked with the parent, then allowed the parent to rant at Doc, then put his teacher on the spot in front of the parent. That is no way to manage your staff. Even worse was the lack of investigation by the GCPS county office admins, and the rubber stamp approval of dismissal by the school board. Administrative rule book integrity is the focus of GCPS.
By Kage
June 29, 2006 10:53 AM | Link to this
Re. SNY’s phone call question…
I have always wanted to explain to parents just how difficult it is to make a phone call.
I ‘only’ had 22 students, but it was next to impossible to make a phone call. We have two phone lines in the building that are available to teachers. We have approx. 50 teachers, plus support staff. It’s almost impossible to get a line out at any time.
I can’t leave the kids to make a phone call during the day. I have one 45 minute planning period three days a week. During that time, I have to make copies, set up for lessons, fill out the endless paper work, etc. That’s if no one has scheduled an SST during my planning period. However, if I have to make a phone call, I’d drop all that to call the parent. If I can get a line out. My planning period was first thing in the day, though - usually nothing has happened by then to warrant a phone call.
Next chance I have is lunch. It’s supposed to be 30 minutes duty free, but by the time you drop off the kids and supervise them in line, I’m down to 20 minutes. If I really need to make a phone call, I’ll scarf down my lunch quickly and try to get a line out. Usually, other teachers have the same idea, though, and it’s still hard to get a line. I know it’s much easier now, though, then it will be that afternoon, so I keep trying. Unless, of course, I have had students misbehave that day and they need to be in silent lunch. Then I have kids with me and can’t leave them. I can’t take them with me to make the call - that would violate confidentiality. Keep in mind, also, that it’s lunch hour, so most working parents are at lunch.
After school is my next shot to get that phone call in. Kids get out at 2:45. At this time, kids with transportation issues have priority, naturally. It’s usually fifteen minutes for all the transport issues to be cleared up before I even try to make a call. The phones are only located in the office, so I have to stop whatever planning I’m doing to check and see if there’s a free line. Then I have the choice of wasting 20 minutes waiting for a line, or going back to my room to be productive and starting the cycle over again. However, if I have a meeting to go to (which happens at least once, usually twice, a week) it starts at 3:00 and I won’t have time to make the call. For several months of the year, I teach extended day. That means I go straight through until 5:00 and have no access to the phone. By the time I’ve finished that, I’m exhausted and I still have to plan for the next day, grade, etc. All my good intentions of making what is likely a difficult phone call have diminished knowing I’ll be at school until 7:00 anyway. (I draw the line at 12 hour shifts no matter what I still have to do.)
That’s not to say that I never make phone calls. Sometimes I luck out and catch a line without waiting 20 minutes. If I have several calls to make though, they get prioritized: injuries for the day, severe behavior or emotional problems, then academic issues.
I would use a cell phone at school, but it doesn’t work in the building. I know many teachers who give out their home phone numbers. I choose not to. My first year of teaching, there were two teachers in the building who were stalked/threatened by parents. I want to keep my personal information private. I know I could call and block the number from home - and I have done that in extreme circumstances - however, I tend to work too much. I don’t want to blur the lines between home and work anymore than I have to.
So, in a nutshell, yes it is difficult for an elementary school teacher to make a phone call.
By SNY
June 29, 2006 12:08 PM | Link to this
Kage,
Thank you for answering me and not thinking that I was being funny or smart. I had no idea that at the elementary school level your day was so hectic. To be honest, I really didn’t think that any teachers’ day was that hectic.
I honestly have no ideas on how a busy day like that can be shortened or helped. It would seem that every teacher would need a parapro or something. I have never said that all teachers don’t try their best and I think that people get that idea about me. It doesn’t seem to me, from the way you just described your day that you even have time for a restroom break. I mean for yourself, not the kids.
We mostly hear from the middle and high school teachers on here to tell us about their daily activities. It’s nice to hear about the day in the life of an elementary school teacher. Even if it does sound a little scary.
By Cynthia
June 29, 2006 01:33 PM | Link to this
To read so many cold and uncaring comments appalls me, especially some of the tactics for waking a child. They sound more like horror stories some of my students have told me about their schooling in China! This year while reading the GHSGT out loud to one of my ESOL students, he continually fell asleep. Because he is entitled to receive accommodations such as having the test read out loud, frequent breaks, extended time, and rereading/paraphrasing directions, I gently woke him by calling his name and touching his arm if necessary. At that point I suggested he take a break, stand up, walk around, breathe deeply, and get water. I then asked him why he was continually falling asleep. He had worked late the night before as he usually does. This student is self supporting and until late at night to pay his rent, utilities, etc.
In Henry A. Giroux in his article, “Teachers, Public Life, and Curriculum Reform,” shares his thoughts about the issue of a sleeping student in class. Trained to view the problem as one of discipline and management, he separated the problems of school from those of society ignoring the relationship between the two. My understanding of this article is that the problems of school and society are inseparable. To try to compartmentalize these somehow is the making of insanity and inefficacy.
How about being a human being and finding out if the student is sick, hungry, has a drug problem, works at night???? If one student is experiencing problems like these, we can guess that others are. I cannot sell myself out for the sake of money or a job and turn my head.
By SET
June 29, 2006 01:49 PM | Link to this
Kage and Cynthia both have good points. A teacher is not a school nurse or social worker. Yes the kids need both. In a fully operating school they would have both and kids with problems could be sent from the classroom to have those problems attended to by school nurses and social workers.
Teachers don’t have time budgeted to do other than their teaching functions for classes of 30 or so kids all day long. There’s always an exception and as long as they are managable (few and far between) OK.
If we could cut the administration - outsource as many of them to India as we can - maybe we could bring back the school nurses and the district social workers. They are really essential for large schools.
If the kid is unable to attend school because of his/her unresolvable personal problems, the kids shouldn’t be in the school. They should be elsewhere at an alternative program. Teachers can’t fulfill their duties to the bulk of the students if their time is being burned up by individual needy students who should be in a program for the needy.
By Laf
June 29, 2006 05:32 PM | Link to this
Cynthia I have also been appalled by the large number of cold and uncaring comments made on this blog. You made a very good post. Alittle more compassion, understanding, and savy classroom management skills may be needed. A warm classroom with poor ventilation and a boring lesson can cause anybody to fall asleep. Especially if they don’t have an adult at home who cares enough to make sure they are in bed at night at an appropriate hour.
By North Georgia Middle School Teacher
July 4, 2006 06:05 PM | Link to this
I must agree with Laf. I am a teacher who strives to keep my kids awake. If they’re falling asleep, I am doing something wrong. Of course, there are exceptions that we have mentioned above, when students are ill or have a poor home life. I would never try to scare them or spray them with water! Besides the fact that it doesn’t create a good environment for my classroom, it also leads to confrontations with students. I have asked students to stand or stretch and I have contacted parents to see what is going on at home (I once had a student serving ISS time for sleeping oulled out of ISS and sent to me on my planning period for a conference one on one with me, where he revealed to me that he was living in a meth lab and couldn’t sleep because of the traffic and people in and out of the house all night) Now, some may say that I stepped outside of my “teaching duties,” but according to National Board certification standards and hopefully, every teacher, teaching duties including caring about students and taking time to do anything possible to see them succeed personally and academically.