Get Schooled

By Teacher Teacher

June 14, 2006 01:25 PM | Link to this

It is obscene that a principal would receive such money when, for just one example, there are students who still use social studies textbooks that list Bill Clinton as President and French texts that use the franc as the the monetary unit rather than the euro. Are our State government’s educational priorities out of whack, or what?

For a quick reference as to the worth of most principals, click here.

By Jeff

June 14, 2006 01:34 PM | Link to this

Option A: Easier path. Same basic challenges as anywhere else, but more easily dealt with. Site is pretty well set, and a leader basically makes sure no leaks appear. Success is virtually gauranteed. High-profile recognition extremely likely.

Option B: Nuclear bomb just detonated. Problem is that some in the blast area wanted it to, and others don’t want to leave, even if not leaveing means death. Leader here has to completely clean everything up and completely rebuild from the ground up. May or may not be successful. More than likely will get no recognition whatsoever.

Which is the better leader? My tie ins to this discussion should be pretty ovious, though admittely exaggerated and simplified. I think it brings out the dichotomy that I was trying to address though…

By Ernest

June 14, 2006 01:45 PM | Link to this

First off, congratulations to the principals that made this list and are eligible for this stipend. I’m glad to say I know several of them personally along with their work ethic thus feel they are worthy candidates.

A reasonable question is, does the principal make the school or does the school make the principal? One could rationalize that some principals are successful because they are in strong community schools with high levels are parental involvement. Not to say that makes their job easy but the community won’t let the school and principal fail. If they perceive the principal is weak, they will make efforts to remove that person sooner rather than later.

Some schools need a personality like ‘Joe Clark from Lean on Me’ to turn things around. This is where SET has a valid point, some environments focus to much on ‘self esteem’ rather than reading, writing, and arithmetic.

By yesiamworried

June 14, 2006 01:51 PM | Link to this

On quick glance, 75% of the principals on the list are elementary school principals. But the vast majority of needs improvement schools are middle and high schools. That is where things really go down hill in Georgia.

I also wonder, as Patti does, if the skills need to run an overwhelmingly white, affluent, suburban elementary school transfer to an overwhleming poor, and minority, middle school (that is in the urban core?)

By lynn d

June 14, 2006 02:05 PM | Link to this

I have first hand experience with this. Our school, a diverse elementary school, had a principal who was strong and appeared to be among the system’s strongest. The superintendent begged him to move to one of the lowest performing schools in the system. She lasted less then 3 years, retiring once he became eligible too.

One of his greatest stregnths was her ability to hire top notch teachers. Once there, they all enjoyed working for her. He was a great “teachers” principal. But not one would follow him to her new assignment and it quickly became clear, that people wanted to work at our school in part to work for him but in large part because of the huge amount of parental involvement, well behaved students and supportive community.

By Ernest

June 14, 2006 02:18 PM | Link to this

Yesiamworried and Lynn D were far more direct than I in their postings. If the principals were moving laterally to a school with similar demographic and socioeconomic status, it might work. Otherwise, they could be in for a rude awakening…

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

June 14, 2006 02:24 PM | Link to this

I would prefer if the bonus was specifically for teachers, since the principal is only 1% of an entire school.

I do hope a 3 - 5 year contract was included, in order for a Principal to keep that money. If not, they will only receive people who are waiting for retirement.

By b. white

June 14, 2006 02:25 PM | Link to this

Lynn D.,

Why does the principal you are referring to change gender every other sentence?

By Lynn d

June 14, 2006 02:32 PM | Link to this

Bob— sorry trying to hide the identity of the principal and school involved. Some people on here know me in real life.

I also hope there is some contract required. It did say that the reward was renewable for 2 more years.

Real change, sustainable change, takes years, and doesn’t happen over night.

By yesiamworried

June 14, 2006 02:37 PM | Link to this

I wonder how many of the eligible principals take them up on this offer. Several from DCSS are no more going to move to needs improvements schools. There are a few on there that might. But I can’t see the principals of Vanderlyn, Austin or Kittridge moving to needs improvement schools. $15000 is a lot of money, but leading a needs improvement school will be a dramatic life change.

Patti, will you be able to find out how many on the list apply for positions at needs improvements schools?

By Dekalb Educator

June 14, 2006 02:40 PM | Link to this

I have to agree with Amazed on this one. I for one am in a school that is not at the top of any one’s list. I have been there since the beginning of my career in Dekalb (‘97). FOR ONCE…I want to have a principal that WANTS to be there. Not someone that was “forced” to come or is using the school as a “hurdle” to jump through before leaving and heading to a district job.

A strong school starts at the top. An effective principal who WANTS to be there will have an effective staff. An effective staff that are GLAD to be working for such a person will have an effective class.

When it is felt that the principal doesnt want to be there..it affects the teachers (causing low morale) and that affects the work in the classroom ..ULTIMATELY affecting the students (who have no say so)

By SET

June 14, 2006 02:52 PM | Link to this

Read the above, and one important issue was hit on: Once the kids hit puberty (some ethnics are well into it at 6th grade), things change. The job of maintaining order and getting learning done is not the same as it was in K-5.

I suspect it’s grades 6-12 where the trouble really sets in (there are physiological and IQ reasons for this involving hormones, aggression, sexuality, etc.) The skillset to well manage the pubescent kids is critically important to a school district.

I don’t believe the K-5 principals should be competing for the same pool of bonuses as the 6-12 principals. It seems they are.

By yesiamworried

June 14, 2006 03:28 PM | Link to this

Ok, so I need to get a life, but I just played around on the Georgia dept of ed website and discovered that only 5%ish of elementary schools didn’t make AYP last year. Between 50 and 60 percent of middle and high schools didn’t make AYP.

SET is on the money — secondary school principals is where the emphasis should be.

By apple

June 14, 2006 03:49 PM | Link to this

Patti…Did I read your original correctly? Did you say TEACH IN A NEEDS IMPROVEMENT SCHOOL? I feel quite certain NONE of the principals would TEACH…..Some may go as an administrator for the bonus money, though. Would they make a difference….Probably not. There was a study last year from Harvard in which instruction at “high performing” schools was compared to instruction at “needs improvement ” schools. THere were specific criteria for the judging . It turned out that the best instruction was going on at the “needs improvement” schools….the the researchers stated that at the “high performing” schools they found there was more MAINTENANCE” than good instruction….the students arrived at those schools as high performers and all the school had to do was keep them there.

By apple

June 14, 2006 03:57 PM | Link to this

As you know, all of the teachers at two Dekalb middle schools were fired at the end of this year….because NCLB says that will get them off the “needs improvement” list. It was recommended to the county officials that they exchange the teachers and administration at those 2 schools with the those at the two highest performing middle schools in the county…because then, we would know once and for all if the teachers are the controlling factor in a school’s performance. THe county officials , of course, said that would never happen….

By atltoday

June 14, 2006 04:02 PM | Link to this

I really think the disconnect begins with middle schoolers. If the truth be told, they start to realize a lot of things about themselves, their home life and their community around that time. A 1st grader may not realize he’s poor and parents are illiterate, but a 7th grader will. We’ve got to do better than just shuffle principals. What about textbooks, computers, etc? all of these things need to be fair. North Fulton won the right to keep more of its money in that part of the county. Is that a precedent? will certain parts of town be able to do the same w/ their tax dollars as certain parts of the county and will regions be able to do the same thing in the certain parts of the state. I am my brother’s keeper and I really want ALL children in this state to be educated because it makes a safer and better community, city, and state for us ALL.

By Patti Ghezzi

June 14, 2006 04:10 PM | Link to this

I apologize for the error. These principals would be expected to lead a Needs Improvement school, not teach in one.

Yes, I could find out how many principals accept the offer, which is also open to out-of-state leaders. I’ll make myself to inquire in September, when all those leaders would be on board.

By newlyretired

June 14, 2006 05:16 PM | Link to this

I’ve spent my entire teaching career at one school. It has made the transition from small/rural/predominately white to enormous/suburban/predominately black. The few whites left are making a hasty exit as fast as possible. Through it all our school has had administrators that were far from dynamic. It seemed as if the central office used our school as the “elephant graveyard” for administrators who were biding their time. This year we got a principal from the affluent side of town whose previous school was always making the headlines for outstanding test scores. My teammates and I waited in anticipation for the new principal to bolster flagging morale and to inject some new energy and focus. Unfortunately, when in the building this new principal was sequestered in the office the same as all the principals before. She was in the classrooms on such rare occasions, the children asked who she was. We are still facing falling test scores, apathetic parents, and a loss of good teachers who are joining the white flight. I’ve always believed that one of the most important jobs of an administrator is to set the academic/behavioral tone of the school. If they aren’t showing the staff and children that they believe in the school, it won’t matter how dynamic they are.

By Ernest

June 14, 2006 05:33 PM | Link to this

Dana, it may not be PC to do so but it would be interesting to see those statistics with each school and HPP principal. Specifically, the racial composition percentages, percentage of total population on free/reduced lunch, average years of service for instructional staff along with their racial percentages. Maybe someone else can think of other measures that might help.

SET is correct in suggesting suggesting this bonus should be awarded in sliding scale based on the grade levels of the NI school. I can see the rationale in wanting them the same but without question the greatest need is for the middle/high schoolers to have strong administrators.

By lynn d

June 14, 2006 05:50 PM | Link to this

If the new principal gets to bring a new staff (teachers and all) with them, is it fair to presume that the principal is the sole reason for improvement? I realize that the announcement didn’t say the school would lose all its teachers, but just throwing that thought out.

I am still stuck on what the state’s needs are versuses what this list looks like. Far to many elementary schools and not nearly enough secondary school principals to make a difference.

In some states, they have really honed in on what their real needs are and are aggresively addressing them. This list is just another example that we aren’t willing to work on our weakest areas — middle and high school.

By holdingajc"accountable"

June 14, 2006 07:00 PM | Link to this

Why don’t we offer Barney Fife a big raise to come to the inner city, seeing as he kept the crime rate in Mayberry so low?

How about this instead: hold the students at the low performing schools to the same standards of behavior as the students in the high performing schools. Since teachers won’t speak out for fear of retaliation, maybe the paper could conduct a survey of teachers in poor and affluent schools. We can blame the teacher all we want, but perhaps we should consider that it’s just a little bit harder to teach when you are being physically assaulted.

Or we can pretend things like this don’t happen because school systems have “zero tolerance” policies.

By jim d

June 15, 2006 08:43 AM | Link to this

Ok so they get a contract for a couple of years.

Then what?

What happens when they fail to make the improvements expected of them? Do they get their old job back? do they get moved to another problem school? Or do they just get canned? Whatever the case may be, I’m not too sure we’ll have many takers just because of the risk and unknowns involved.

It will be interesting to watch though.

By Ernest

June 15, 2006 10:19 AM | Link to this

Dana, if you are still reading the list, Marbut ES in DeKalb should be listed as a Theme school. Also echoing yesiamworried point earlier, there are several magnet schools on the list also. Nothing against those principals but there is a different makeup of the student body at those schools, sometimes selective.

By alice

June 15, 2006 10:59 AM | Link to this

A friend told me about this. Please take our principal… someone, please. Our principal isn’t kind or sweet and is totally unapproachable. A principal should have an instructional vision, I don’t think ours does. Teacher morale is very low. The school has nearly perfect test scores, but teachers are expected to teach the test constantly. As a parent, I could care less about test scores. With the population of our school, test scores would be high without all the drilling.

(I do feel sorry for our principal, the community scrutinizes test scores — one point drop and you should hear the neighborhood howl. Uneducated fools who are only concerned about property values, not the quality of education.)

Could our principal make a difference at a low performing school? I don’t think so. But perhaps, given a population with challenges, a focus on test scores would be appropriate.

As an aside, our principal and at least one other one from DeKalb are use to having massive budgets from the PTAs. Well over $100,000 is raised and spent by some of the schools’ PTAs. Not sure principals could do without this discresionary spending.

By concernedparent

June 16, 2006 09:33 AM | Link to this

Test scores don’t show the whole picture. They really need to ask the teachers, parents and students (if high school) to evaluate principals for their effectiveness. Many of these principals are probably superior, but some aren’t. They may be the ones that jump at the opportunity, perhaps because parents and teachers complain about them.

By ConcenredParent80004322

June 16, 2006 11:53 AM | Link to this

I agree, tests score don’t show the whole picture.

I must make one primary statement before my total comment. TESTS (assessments) ARE ESSENTIAL in the learning process. BUT DON’T LET POLITICIANS TELL YOU THAT THEY ARE SOLVING THE “PROBLEMS” IN EDUCATION AND USE TEST SCORES AS THE SUPPORTIVE DATA.

The American Educational Research Association urges authors of standardized tests to indicate the primary purpose of the all published assessments. The College Board is one such author. They develop and administer the SAT (and others). If you read the literature from the College Board it states that the SAT “may” indicate the student’s success in college. They strongly discourage ranking states according to average SAT scores. Why? Because in states like Alabama, the primary test used in the matriculation process to Bama, Auburn, UAB, etc. is the ACT! Alabama students do not regularly take the SAT unless they are planning matriculation to private or out of state schools. And who are these students? They are usually the academically gifted students. Not exactly a fair respresentation of ALL students in Alabama. Pretty smart? Why not bag the SAT if you don’t need it to get to the school of your choice? If there was another form of assessment available to me back in the 80’s I would have jumped at it!

In Georgia, the SAT has been the primary test for matriculation. Recently there has been a major emphasis to encourage students to take more appropriate tests needed for their personal matriculation goals. If you are planning to go to a regional university in Georgia, you can take the ACT. You don’t need the SAT. If you are planning to go to a technical college, you can take the Compass exam. And according to the American Educational Research Association, there is nothing wrong with this. Take the test that accomplishes your goals!

With this as the trend, fewer and fewer Georgia students will attempt the SAT. AND THAT IS OK!!! But it also means that the students still taking the assessment are planning to attend a post-secondary school that requires the SAT. These are mostly private, research or out of state schools. These students represent our top kids.

So the good news is… average SAT scores go up!!! Hopefully we will distance ourselves from the bottom of the dreaded annual report. BUT IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH STUDENT ACHIEVEMENT! DON’T LET THE POLITICAL PARTY D’JOUR (BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL GUILTY)USE AVERAGE TEST SCORES AS DATA FOR VALIDATING EDUCATIONAL STRATEGIES. THIS INTERPRETATION OF DATA DOES NOT REFLECT ANY TAXONOMY OF LEARNING!!!

Look for truth in data regarding our children. If it was a lab report with distressing news…I’d want more information. Educational research data DOES support that student success is proportionate to parental involvement in the academic process. That doesn’t mean we need to be in the halls. That means we need to reinforce the school’s codes of behavior and expectations in the home. And we must be stewards of our student’s progress. If they had a fever that went on for a few weeks, we’d be at the doctor’s office regularly performing a barage of tests until a proper diagnosis and treatment were found.

So too does true assessment of student achievement involve a wide range of assessment vehicles. It may be interviews, writing samples, portfolio development, problem solving activities, art work, or a number of performance based activities. AND AS LOVING PARENTS, WE ALL KNOW THIS! THAT INFORMATION ISN’T NEW! But objective tests always seem to be the published litmus of student success….why? Because it is the easiest to administer and assess. And these numbers are easy to report in newspapers and political campaign literature.

(Stepping off my soap box!)

By MMM

June 19, 2006 02:18 PM | Link to this

I would love to see the actual algorithm used to pick these folks? Did they look at the subcatagories from AYP that are causing the other schools to flunk—or are these schools simply blessed with no disabled, ESOL, or economically disadvantaged kids?

Theme and magnet schools have parents that care and usually cooperate—a huge advantage.

By Northside Mom

June 19, 2006 04:53 PM | Link to this

It is not a surprise that there were no Forsyth County “leaders” who made the cut. After moving from excellent Fulton County schools to Forsyth County schools, we have found the school administration and board to be ineffective and counterproductive to education. They are more more focused on bible-thumping, “discipline issues”, dress code, and preventing home-made goodies than educating our children. It is pretty sad when you have the demographics of Forsyth County and wonderful students to work with and your school administration ends up at the bottom of the barrel with Clayton County schools.

By usedup

June 19, 2006 06:10 PM | Link to this

After thirty years in education, ten as an administrator, I’d rather see the teachers of the children who have improved the most receive the reward. Principalships are more often based on social,political, ethnic,gender,etc lines than on real school improvement. If you can prove that the principal had something to do with scores increasing,other than being in the office, maybe they should get a reward.But I think it should go to the teachers who do the work.