Get Schooled

By Mz. B.

June 6, 2006 10:52 AM | Link to this

Middle and high school teachers and counselors have been feeling this argument for some time. For many years the education establishment has degraded the jobs/careers of those in our society who do not have college degrees and white collar jobs. When in reality, the great majority of jobs do not require a college degree…or extensive knowledge of math and science, yet plumbers, electricians, mechanics, sanitation workers, construction workers, bus drivers, truck drivers all are vital to our survival…Nevertheless, we continue to impart the idea to our students and to parents that one cannot be a contributing member of society unless they pursue the college path…. YOU ASK WHO SHOULD DECIDE ON THE PATH? Perhaps the student and the parents as they did in the previous generations…Back in the day,when entering high school,a choice could be made….business, college prep, specific career training. If you changed your mind, you could change your choice…But now….we beat up on the kids who are not interested in math, science, college…and offer them no options….so they drop out bu 9th or 10th grade….Offering options …that’s the answer, not testing and failing….

By SET

June 6, 2006 10:53 AM | Link to this

Rothstein has a point and it hurts to listen.

We already know Head Start is a waste of money. When you track the students and compare against control groups for IQ the difference Head Start makes in academic achievement is negligible. The money poured down a rathole is not negligible.

There are legions of books and studies on this point of economics. We need to think about protecting the wages, dignity and lives of the left half of the bell curve the way we protected them in the 1950’s and 1960’s.

We as a society have systematically destroyed the livelihoods of these people and laughed while we did it. Not just economic policy of flooding the country with Mexican-Indians who aren’t even wanted by their own country (to the point that black males are largely unemployable in the restaurant/hotel industries) - but our insane social policy of divorce on demand which means that every housewife in the nation and her children can now be (affordably) abandonded for a younger woman whenever it suits the husband.

Many of the bad things we have done felt good at the time - free love and “civil rights” (protected classes who never have to grow up). We now from economic history who pays the bills for all this feel good legislation. The left side of the bell curve pays then we all get the bill after them.

Our educational policy is poison to the left side of the bell curve - but it’s sweet poison. It’s like Anti-Freeze in Iced Tea.

Our academic policies were better in the 1955-1964 era, faults included. Or at least it seems that way now. The real question is how much pain will it take for the nation to undo at least some of the feel-good legislation and get to work on preparing the public school kids who by definition are the lower class students (at least in the urban areas) to succeed or at least survive well in this Brave New World?

By Ernest

June 6, 2006 11:17 AM | Link to this

I’m feeling this argument too! Though somewhat noble to offer a ‘college prep’ curriculum, statistics show that a large percentage of our students are NOT going to college. Many students would be better served by taking ‘life skills’ training along will going to a vo-tech school. This is not to say they could not go to college later in life because some people ‘mature’ academically later than others. It at least ensures they could have employable skills along with the ability to cope in life.

My father taught ‘shop’ in HS back in the 50’s and 60’s. He was proud that many of his former students were successful and productive citizens with many of the skills they learned from his class. Sure, there were some that did not cut it but it was more for lack of effort on their part in not taking advantage of the opportunities provided.

I’m glad to see the new career technology offerings in HS now. It could provide another option for many who do not have an immediate desire for college. I hope emphasis is also placed on assuring students there are viable options; not to deemphasize the importance of college but to emphasize the importance of having good skills.

By Robert

June 6, 2006 11:36 AM | Link to this

I had a rather explosive argument with a fellow high school teacher on this subject. My position was that college and possibly high was not for everyone. If a student already has talent in wood working and already knows that they want to be a carpenter, why bother with the expense, time, and effort of college? And, beyond basic math and English, why even bother with high school? Why not start their career as an apprentice and go for it? If they change their mind as far as their career goes, the diplomas will always be there - there is no time limit.

The other teacher became very angry with me (raising his voice and began personally attacking me). He said that everyone should go to college because you never know when you may need that degree. He said that even giving an option to a student that they do not have to study and go to college is a mistake.

I was taken aback by his very vocal attack. I shared this conversation with a peer and she said that she thought it was simply a cultural difference (I am white and the other teacher is black). She said that a lot of the black community in this generation has been brought up to believe that a college diploma is a requirement for being happy and it is their right - almost like a civil right - to get that college diploma.

Thoughts?

By Amanda

June 6, 2006 11:44 AM | Link to this

School reform is absolutely necessary. The best route may even be to demolish and completely rebuild our education system. The idea that we should allow some children to receive sub-par educations simply so that some people can have maids to clean their houses and McDonald’s has enough employees is ludacris.

A child’s future should never be compramised because their parents couldn’t afford to send them to Exeter. That’s the point that most of the world gets and seems to get lost on the American people. Honestly, allowing a child to continue to receive a sub-par education could prevent the child from inventing the time machine or from finding the cure for AIDS. Instead, they may become the biggest drug dealer in history and it would be our fault as a society that only cares about the “talented few” and the privileged. I think that as a nation – we should stop and truly think about how we can properly educate our children. Not how we can get them to finish on time (with below average testing scores), not how we can get them to average testing scores but instead how we can all take part in teaching a young person to think and use their imagination so that they have the proper tools to excel. I also think we need to give our teachers, who are going above and beyond the call of duty to even attempt to educate children in today’s hostile learning environment, access to all of the technology and resources they require and that we should work on giving them both the respect and the pay that they deserve.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

June 6, 2006 11:48 AM | Link to this

No – I disagree. It doesn’t hurt to learn Math and Science, even if you end up cleaning toilets for a living. Math has more to do with financing your first home and car, than it has to do with career choice. The kids, who failed the 8th grade CRCT, were not performing Calculus or Algebra I, or Geometry. They failed basic math. They are failing Earth and Life Science, Not Physics.

The kids are failing everyday LIFE Scenarios, things they need to know. Maybe teaching higher math and science will not alleviate poverty, but it does provide some people the opportunity to work their way out of poverty. The key word is “OPPORTUNITY”.

Before we start agonizing over higher math and sciences being taught to all children. We should face the fact that kids are not passing fundamental math or reading. That is the basis for education reform in this country.

I love the Theme, “No Child Left Behind” - it’s the implementation of the program, I am at odds with.

By Mz. B.

June 6, 2006 11:59 AM | Link to this

Miss Amanda…I don’t think anyone has mentioned subpar education…Just different kinds of education…[Everyone is ignorant about something]….I can’t fix my tv when it breaks..or a burst pipe spurting water into my house..but I can do geometry and trig…What if everyone got a college degree….there would never be enough jobs to handle it….OPTIONS>>OPTIONS

By RW

June 6, 2006 12:01 PM | Link to this

Rothstein is dead wrong. Even a menial laborer needs to be able to balance a checkbook and know when they are being overcharged for the goods and services they receive. The kids failing the CRCT tests can’t do that.

Further, most people don’t know when they graduate HS what they want to do for a career. Failing to teach minimum levels of math, science, and English takes away most options.

By BlindHomer

June 6, 2006 12:09 PM | Link to this

The kids should decide. This was the system I grew up with. Everyone got nine years of reading and writing and arithmetic. After junior high some kids went to high school and some went to trade school. The kids pretty well knew their own potential by the time they were 15. If they can’t behave appropriately in either environment they get the third option, behavioral school. You get the dummies and the hoodlums away from the kids that want to learn, a public school imitation of the private school approach.

By Mel

June 6, 2006 12:11 PM | Link to this

The problem with this arguement by Rothstein is that it treats education only as a means to follow a certain career path. It fails to address that there are many benefits to education outside of preparing a student for a future career.

Students may not need college level math and science to perform well in service positions, but they need it to perform well in society. Education helps us to become more rounded individuals, which in turn helps us to be informed voters, smarter consumers, etc. It benefits all of us for students to receive the best education possible so that they can function well and become productive members of society.

By JEff

June 6, 2006 12:20 PM | Link to this

A quote from The Emporer’s Club:

“A teacher’s greatest hope is that through education a boy’s character might be changed. And so, the destiny of a man.”

By SNY

June 6, 2006 12:26 PM | Link to this

Robert,

I am black and I do not know anyone who thinks that going to college is our right. Did I go to college - yes. But that was because I will one day be CFO of a fortune 100 company and I needed a college education to prepare me for that. Do I teach my children that they are going to college - yes. Because I know what they want to do with their lives and I know that they are going to need college and training to do it. If they change their minds and want to something else then maybe their educational path will change with it. But I don’t teach them that it is their right to go to school. I teach them that it is their choice - but having that choice is their right. Maybe that’s where your friend got it wrong.

By BlindHomer

June 6, 2006 12:26 PM | Link to this

Amanda, Amazed, and RW - Noble but very unrealistic. Teach them all physics and calculus when 40% of them can’t get 40% correct (based on prior years cut scores) on a life sciences test? Teach them what they need, like balancing a checkbook, and realistic courses of study, like HVAC or landscaping, that give them a chance to succeed.

By fed up

June 6, 2006 12:42 PM | Link to this

Everyone needs basic math and probably a little life science to get along in life. They also need to be on at least an 8th grade reading level. Beyond that, I really don’t think that any further formal education is necessary to have a fulfilling life.

Let’s say a boy finishes 8th grade, and passes the CRCT, but decides that high school is not his thing but that he loves fixing cars. Why deprive that kid of the chance to follow his/her dream by forcing him to take English Lit and Calc and other things that won’t mean a hill of beans to his success as a mechanic. Let him apprentice or take classes to learn to be a mechanic.

Let’s say the kid works as a mechanic for a while, decides that it’s not fulfulling and he wants to be a professor of literature instead. Well, at least he has had a lucrative job for a few years and probably has his life together enough that he can finish his high school education and work on going to college at that point.

In contrast, let’s take the same kid and have some idiot counselor (or idiot legislator) tell him… no you can’t be a mechanic. You have talent and interest in that area, and you and your family want you to be a mechanic now, but we…. the almighty government…. have decided that even though you are not strong academically and have no interest whatsoever in college prep, by God you will sit in that class and get excited about English Lit, Trig and European History. Then the kid, who is bored or overwhelmed, drops out but has no skills to do what he loves and has some natural talent at… so he works at McDonalds for minimum wage or sell drugs..

Which kid has a better shot at becoming educated and having a fulfilling life, the one who got to follow his dream after 8th grade and make perfectly good money or the one who was forced to enter a level of schooling that he does not want and cannot complete effectively so he drops out with no skills at all and works for $6/hour.

Allowing kids to find the path that suits them and encouraging them to be honest with themselves about their abilities and interests provides opportunity. A person who is able to support himself and take pride in his own accomplishments (rather than those that some beaurocrat dictated for him) is the one that will ultimately get ahead in life.

By OldSchool

June 6, 2006 12:44 PM | Link to this

Once upon a time, I taught Intro to Woodworking, Metalworking, Small Engines and Drafting…Industrial Arts. IA was offered at both the middle school (2 shops & teachers) and high school (2 shops & teachers). It was a wonderful change from the academic courses while employing those same academic skills in “real world” applications. Students could even compete in Technical Writing and Research Paper contests (they still do at TSA conferences!)

But the best part of the middle school program was providing a stepping stone to the high school’s vocational courses. Students could “specialize” in Metals, Drafting, Construction Trades, Automotives, etc. or, if they were more interested in finer woodworking, IA offered them the chance to become craftsmen. A whole lot of incredible furniture and even art came out of those IA shops. The other shops could do what we did best: job entry level skill development. Our graduates went on to become master brick masons, plumbers, electricians, auto service managers, drafters, even engineers and architects. College was an option for these students as was technical school. For many, the only difference in their general diploma and the college prep diploma was the foreign language requirement. They took the high level maths and sciences but wanted so much more.

The secret to it all was the integration of the academic skills into the vocational/trades and using IA to introduce students to various vocations at the middle school level.

Then someone somewhere decided that what was REALLY needed was Technology Education and voila! We all got expensive labs with electronic tinkertoys and NO FUNDING TO KEEP THOSE LABS UPDATED AS TECHNOLOGY CHANGED. I’m sorry but a few days in a module is no substitute for carrying out a project from design to materials selection to construction procedures planning to actual execution. IA was never a game or a “fun’ class. It meant critical thinking, planning, communicating, attention to safety, careful measuring and calculating, and following through to the end. Students put every bit of their learning to use in those shops.

Bring back Industrial Arts in the middle and high schools. Fund vocational programs and keep them funded. Develop academics that blend seamlessly and realistically into those vocational programs. Take a look at the few IA programs that still exist (Rabun Gap?) and see if they don’t really make a difference.

By Mz. B.

June 6, 2006 01:05 PM | Link to this

OOPs, Mel…..Did you say everyone needs college level math to perform well in society? That had to be a typo!!!….Many of our best citizens have for one reason or another,never had college level math…Look around you….many of our fathers and grandfathers barely finished high school….the mechanic who repairs my car, the plumber,the owner of my favorite restaurant never had college math…..Basic math, yes, specific needs math, probably..but….college math, no…THey are fabulous “performers”!!!

By BlindHomer

June 6, 2006 01:33 PM | Link to this

Courses I took in high school that should have been saved until college (optional, depending on major). - Trigonometry, calculus, chemistry, and physics. Courses I took in college that should be widely taught in high school. - Personal finance, logic, and moral and ethical philosophy. Courses I never took that would have been very helpful. - Mate selection and child rearing.

By frank

June 6, 2006 01:35 PM | Link to this

Teaching kids math and science is important since technology is a bigger and bigger part of the work place. There are less unskilled jobs. Have you seen the equipment needed to diagnosis car problems now?

I am off to buy a chemistry set and electronic set for my 2 kids so they can learn during the summer. They have a solor powered motor and electric motor boat they are working on.

If you want to raise the wages of unskill labor, stop ILLEGAL immigrants at the border and raid businesses that employ ILLEGAL immigrants. Bush, Kennedy, McCain and the Senate are idiots for trying to pass their banana amnesty.

By MrLiberty

June 6, 2006 01:41 PM | Link to this

Government schools are based on the immoral premise that it is ok to steal money from one group to pay for the education of another. They are also based on the failed principles of socialism and central planning. Reform of such a system will never work, so long as these principles are in place.

Educating children, choosing someone else to educate your kids, and paying for that service are ALL the responsibility of the parents - not the responsibility of society.

Even suggesting that some government employee should decide for you and your child what direction they will take in life is the most disgusting, un-american and reprehensible concept I can imagine. That this goes on with the willing cooperation of gullible parents just shows why our country is in such poor shape. We used to criticise the Soviet Union for this kind of behavior.

“Those who can - do, those who cannot - teach.” These folks are no different from you and I except that likely we work in the free market, where our performance and the performance of all of our company employees fundamentally determines our future. Our jobs aren’t guaranteed like government folks.

Because these government jerks have never worked at a real job, they have no idea how the real word works. Because they are beholden to big-business campaign contributors, they are more likely to do things that keep those constituents happy as opposed to their real consumers. Anyone with half a brain realizes that there are more options in life than janitor or doctor, and how much science, math, english, or history ones takes should be determined by the parent and the interests of the child.

Its time we stopped talking about reforming schools and started talking about how to manage the task of orderly dismantling them.

By C.R.H.

June 6, 2006 02:09 PM | Link to this

Mr.Liberty , do you just cut & paste that same tred post everyday? And just out of curiosity, what “real world” job do you work at that allows you to blog on here so often? I’m surprised you haven’t been fired yet.

By btc

June 6, 2006 02:09 PM | Link to this

I believe advanced education is overrated. Outside of the technical/science degrees what purpose and skills does those degrees offer that a motivated employee cannot earn through experience. Degrees like our state employees/federal employees have provided very few good employees. I will compare a high school graduate with a “B” average to any college graduate in the work place. Education standards in most colleges are no better than those in our high schools. Students graduate with very little knowledge and skills. Colleges are money hungry entities—for example: What part of Harvard made Bill O’Reilly Bill O’REilly? It was simply a ticket he had to punch to get the job. What a pity!!!

By FYI

June 6, 2006 02:28 PM | Link to this

Ahem.

Ludacris = local rap sensation Ludicrous = laughable, hilarious, absurd.

Education reform, indeed!

By MrLiberty

June 6, 2006 02:28 PM | Link to this

Boy it would sure be nice to actually see a creative proposal on these blogs - you know, something that actually calls for real change. CRH complains that every one of my posts is the same, but they are the only posts I read that actually point out the problems and offer solutions (by the way, thanks for not taking time to come up with any real criticism of my thoughts - no one ever does - I guess its easier that way). Isn’t asking the government to fix the problems it created over and over and over just basically the equivalent of posting the same post over and over and over?? Virtually every comment being posted in this blog assumes that “they” should do something, or “we need to have…” something else. Why should any “one size fits all” solution be applied to the task of educating an INDIVIDUAL.

I realize that since most of you were educated by the government schools you no longer think of yourselves as individuals, but as mere tools of the collective (yes, the communists did win the cold war, only they won it here in amerika), but everyone actually is different from everyone else. Federally-controlled, federally-regulated, state-mandated, politician-approved curriculums, text books, teacher education, and the like are the surest way to make sure that nobody gets a decent education and that nobody is prepared to meet the needs of the future. And by the way, the purpose of education is not to train workers - its to educate free thinkers who then may choose to offer their services to an employer or may choose to do something on their own.

Listening to you “experts” out there pontificate as to how this, that, or the other will prepare us for the future and then counting on the government schools to deliver is just pathetic. I may come off as a pontificator, but at least I am wise enough to know that a diverse marketplace of options that would be available following the dismantling of the government school system is the only way to address both the diverse needs of the student population but also the need for them to have the knowledge required for future employment and business creation. My answer isn’t a specific solution (that’s called central planning). My answer is to open up the market in education to thousands of entrepreneurs (many of whom are currently languishing as teachers in the government schools).

American parents need to stop worrying about how the schools are going to fail them this week and start working to get their kids out of this failed system. Homeschooling is the best choice - thousands of resources online and all over Altanta, or private schooling - though many of them have modeled themselves after the failed style of the government schools so be careful.

Most importantly, you as the parent have the responsibility to your child to always make them believe that they can do anything they want in life and to help them find the tools and the knowledge to make that happen - regardless of how much the schools let them down.

By Captain

June 6, 2006 03:03 PM | Link to this

I am amazed at some of the comments here. Consider the fact that I worked just two jobs in my adult life, and forget the small jobs that one does when a student. The first job was in the military and required a minimum completion of two years college work. The second was in the civilian market and required a degree. Fortunately, I completed my college education eleven years after the first two years. Without a degree, the second job was not available. It is a proven fact that those with a college degree make more money in their lifetime of work than those with a high school education or lower. So if you want to go through life always in debt and wondering how you will pay your bills, don’t go to college. You will regret it. But, you must consider that some youngsters are simply too lazy to ever work for a good education. You may as well write them off, as they will never graduate from college. In fact, they will be lucky to graduate from high school.

By lewis

June 6, 2006 03:21 PM | Link to this

The most sensible and well-written comments are those of “Oldschool” earlier today. He obviously thought long and hard about his message and had no axe to grind politically or ideologically. He’s thinking of practical ideas for bettering the lives of students and preparing them for the world, and I wish I could have taken some classes he taught.

By C.R.H.

June 6, 2006 03:29 PM | Link to this

Um, Ok Mr. Liberty, we understand. Homeschooling is the answer to ALL of our problems. Does the little cabin in the middle of the woods that you live in have indoor plumbing? I sure hope you aren’t plotting to overthrown the government that you sem to dislike so fervently. And because you want some constructive thoughts about your posts…I think your ideas are short sighted with very little thought to how people who work for a living will educate their children. Not to even mention there is most certainly a lack of people with any type of expertise available to “teach” these small pockets of home schooled children the basics or even the higher level things they will/may need to know in order to function in our world. Just because you seem to like living in your little world doesn’t mean others want to live there too.

By You dont say

June 6, 2006 04:01 PM | Link to this

Public schools are a joke. I took my kids out and put them in private schools. My daughter just graduated with honors and my son is soon to follow. Best move I ever made. Thats all I have to say about that.

By Leia

June 6, 2006 04:24 PM | Link to this

Many of my colleagues have left teaching in a public school and have gone to a private school. So - if the SAME teachers are teaching your children in a different environment, what is the difference? I’ll tell you - parents who care enough about their children to sacrifice time (mandatory volunteering), money (huge tuitions) and sometimes transportation for their own children. Get it?

By MrLiberty

June 6, 2006 04:50 PM | Link to this

Well CRH, in the little world I live in there are many thousands of parents who educate their kids at home. They don’t live in cabins in the woods, they interact with other homeschool families for field trips, music lessons, science lessons (and other areas of shared expertise) and other social and educational activities. Plenty of them were posting on this educational blog a few weeks ago. The community of individuals is large and growing, mostly because of the failures of the govt. schools and the enormous amount of support and resources available online.

A college degree is not required, and for many even a high school diploma is not needed. As far as financially, my only comment is that you brought these kids into the world, don’t they deserve the best, and shouldn’t you do what you need to do to make sure they get the best? If that means only one job then so be it. If it means getting creative then so be that.

Yes, the government upsets me. They steal my money and then waste it on educational services that are grossly substandard. They waste my money on so many other things too.

I can’t help but comment on the fact that you are grossly out of touch with homeschooling and what it is all about. Your limited world view only encompasses the public school system and so you cannot see how anything else is possible.

It doesn’t take a teaching degree to teach. Private schools certainly recognize that, and homeschoolers proove it everyday. A free market in education for everyone would open up so many possibilities that I would be shocked if a shortage of teachers existed. Retired professionals, scientists, mathematicians, english majors, artists, and the like could all contribute either in person or over the internet, or maybe through some yet to be discovered mechanism, their talents and knowledge to the educational marketplace. They could cater to all ages and grades. Some of these services could be delivered in a formal classroom setting like a private school, and others could be purchased on a pay-per-view basis.

The only limit on such possibilities appears to be the limited scope expressed by you and some of the other folks posting.

Could we have imagined the computer revolution or the cell phone revolution, or even the transformation that the supermarket has undergone? The free market has done great things for these aspects of our lives and it could do the same for education. Anyone willing to face their fears and the reality of the government school system can discover this.

By Robert

June 6, 2006 04:51 PM | Link to this

Leia, You are correct and unfortunately the “general public” just does not get it (see the messages from Mr.Liberty as an example).

It is not that private schools are “better” by nature. It is not that home schooling is “better” by nature. It is the common denominator that these two institutions have that make them APPEAR better - caring parents.

If 100% of all students were forced home schooled, the average scores of home schoolers would drop. If 100% of all students were given vouchers to attend so-called private schools, the average scores of private schools would drop. What make those scores currently higher than the average public school is that the UNCARING parents send their kids there and some (not all) of the affluent CARING parents either home school or send their kids to private school.

I just don’t understand why this is so very hard for Mr.Liberty and others to understand….

By BlindHomer

June 6, 2006 05:00 PM | Link to this

MrLiberty - Apparently you can’t read for comprehension well enough to even understand the topic. Home schooling and private schools are solutions for the able, and you’re certainly not only entitled but wise to pursue those options for your children, to segregate them from the undesirables (morons and criminals). But the question is how to elevate the undesirables? You can’t home or private school them, or teach them calculus. I suggested trying a vocation track around 9th or 10th grade and maybe a few more will escape the cycle of poverty. Rothstein’s sugestion of paying more just won’t work, not when immigrant bricklayers will work 12 hour days for $8 an hour and no overtime.

By OldSchool

June 6, 2006 05:05 PM | Link to this

Uh, lewis…I understand your confusion but I’m very female. I graduated from Ga Southern in 1972 as their first female in Industrial Arts. In 1975 I became the first female “shop” teacher at the high school at which I currently teach. I now teach Engineering Drawing fulltime as that program’s enrollment grew while Industrial Arts began to decline as more and more students were just “dumped” there.

I STILL think bringing back IA in both middle and high school would be a really good thing for most students. You can’t learn the kind of craftsmanship that furniture requires in a rough carpentry class. And few other classes marry math and art as beautifully as IA.

And to You don’t say: My daughters are products not only of public schools but a South Georgia public school system. Both were very successful college students and that success continues in their careers. Their educations were family projects. My husband and I never even considered private schools for either of them. I did spend a summer teaching a private school graduate AutoCAD so she could apply to a school of architecture. Her school offered nothing like that. Private schools work for some and others MAKE the public schools work for them. It’s a team effort. (BTW: being an honor grad is no guarantee of future success.)

By MMM

June 6, 2006 05:07 PM | Link to this

You are all arguing for “choice”. And no single solution fits all children—which is one of the things that top-down decision making loses (NCLB anyone?).

The shop/life skills programs that several of you have fond memories of are being “reinvented” at CEC, a charter down in Coweta county and being replicated in several other districts as a technical college/special high school focus bridge. It was a good idea for some kids befor and remains so—-but only if the parent and child understand and willingly choose it(not because some councilor thinks that they(or someone of their race or class) should only aspire to being a mechanic or maid. Too much of that happened in the past, so we went to a different extreme and have created new problems in the process.

By C.R.H.

June 6, 2006 05:17 PM | Link to this

MrLiberty you aren’t even close to the mark on your assessment of me. I have no children, don’t want any children, will never bear any children. In addition my viewpoint isn’t limited to “public schools”. I was educated in private catholic school for the 1st few years of school and then moved to public school, I also taught at a catholic high school (not in GA) prior to teaching in public schools (some of which were also NOT in GA). Before you decide to project your obvious bias on others maybe you should do a little thinking 1st? In addition, I do know a few (granted not a large sample size) young adults who were home shooled and they really are very far behind the curve academically. One of them has so much difficulty with reading she is unable to get a driver’s license…another one of life’s stupid tests keeps her down.

By cgregister

June 6, 2006 05:49 PM | Link to this

Everyone deserves an education, but they also should have the right to choose how far they go with it or the type to attain in high school. If your child is not college material, quit pushing them to be and let’s be fair, it is their choice, not the parents. However, nothing is going to change with our current education system until they quit blaming EVERYTHING on the schools and not placing half of it on the parents. Schools cannot make a child attend everyday, we cannot make them respect their elders and sit up and listen to what a teacher is teaching.
Also, we need to go back to teaching the very basics learned back in the 50’s and 60’s. I am a product of those years and I learned my basic multiplication tables; how to divide, etc. I didn’t have to take Algebra to graduate - thank goodness. I can balance my check book just fine without it. Why does everyone have to learn Algebra, if they don’t want to go to college? or even if they do?
Children need to learn the basic spelling and punctuation before they can write a decent paper and I don’t feel that is being taught anymore, as everyone is so TEST crazy. Test don’t show the whole picture. PARENTS MUST BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE. TEACHERS SHOULDN’T HAVE TO PUT UP WITH THE WAY SOME PARENTS TALK TO THEM AND VICE/VERSA.

By Leah

June 6, 2006 09:14 PM | Link to this

Robert, I am a black woman in agreement with your position. I have had the same conversation with many of my peers and they have the same view and reaction as your coworker. I believe students should be exposed to career counseling in the middle grades. The high school years would be used for apprenticeships after 10th grade. I believe the elementary and middle grades should be a time where students show and prove if they are academically inclined. Our society must do away with the attitude that choosing a trade position is negative or signs of laziness. As a teacher I can remember it was the abundance of choices in classes that helped me to determine I wanted to go to college and the field I would major in. Each year students have their choices whittled away through federal and state budget cuts.

By lewis

June 7, 2006 08:56 AM | Link to this

To “OldSchool”: Sorry for the assumption that you were a “he”. That you have, and your children have, college educations surprises me not at all for your comments are well-written and broad in perspective. The ideas some have expressed that technical/vocational learning is divorced from the liberal arts learning more citizens need is part of the problem we have in producing young adults who are not multi-dimensional people. My own grandmother was the first female at Mississippi A&M (now Miss State), marched with the cadets ( it was military style then) and was not given much slack as a female by them, and I still have various items she learned to make in industrial arts classes. She was a very well-rounded lady and a tough spirited woman who worked all her adult life. I guess my main point in this discussion is that your way of thinking about how to use IA to teach math and science (and so much more) is very much on target with what I see so many kids needing and what I think many would enjoy once introduced to it. My oldest brother is the smartest of the three of us, but struggled through college courses. Put anything mechanical or electrical in front of him and he will undertand it and improve it most likely. He understands the uses of math and scientific learning far better than I do. My youngest son takes after him (certainly doesn’t get it from me)but will struggle through school, while his older brother is tops in his classes at a very challenging school but cannot change a light bulb. Which is “smarter” or “better educated” remains to be seen. For schools to provide some synthesis of the practical and the more purely “academic” would be ideal and serve more kids.

By time for the truth

June 7, 2006 09:30 AM | Link to this

Its primarily the fault of lazy leftist teachers in the left dominated NEA which is - similar in attitude/mentality to the pinkos in the English N.U.T. Many lefty teachers won’t meaningfully “judge” a kid or oppose meaningful testing - hence the micky mouse “exit” exams which are so dumbed down now as to be worthless. They even get six attempts to pass and some still whine its racist.

In Engalnd you pass or fail an exam and resit it at the next exam cycle - no immediate ‘freebie’ resits. That builds an educational career. Though English exams are now just as dumbed down as here the kids at 16 in the UK do what the kids here do at 18 - and the UK university degrees are ‘worth more’ than US ones - just get them formally evaluated for INS or college entrance here and you’ll see the truth of that!!

If an (american) kid is eighteen why tell that kid that a weak pass at 8th grade level is all they have to manage, same for english - although that’s at least 10th grade - supposedly two years more effort.

As for the brainless iniquities of social promotion, the political indoctrination by lefty school administrators who ram pinko agendas down everyone’s throats and often dont allow ordinary folks/parents who oppose this any say. The huge numbers of law suits against lefty schools for all kinds of politically motivated outrages around the nation is just partial proof of this. The moronic leftist imposed zero tolerance polices which suspend kids with prescription meds for drugs or some harmless item as a weapon, or perfectly harmless t-shirts with Dixie on it as “racist”.

Way too many lazy lefty teachers and schools ‘force’ ritalin etc on kids, often because they cant teach. crappy teacher tenure makes it very hard to sack an obvious bad teacher. there is no real discipline in schools now because lefties have imposed their trendy educational bollocks everywhere and kids know that not much can be done to them unless its really serious - usually criminal. Mixed ability teaching is arguably the most brainless damaging of all lefty policies. Trying to impose a socialist/collectivist type education on the brightest who suffer academically because of (often poorly controlled) continous disruption, and the repugnant, imbecilic “its acting white” attitude or being clever aint “cool”.

Look around you - there will always be kids much brighter than others, why handicap them for selfish politically correct dogma. Not all kids are academic or want to be - just listen to the poor verbal skills of countless black kids stuck in unskilled jobs - or worse - stuck in jail because of what they actually did. Its black kids who are failing more notably according to the stats I read year after year - yet little is done to help them - but you do get a few heart warming ajc stories about Latoyah or Jamal who ovecame such great odds to graduate high school - this is patronising beyond belief and is failing these kids and wider society picks up the tab in every way - including their own failing kids a few years later. The national joke that is GA education should be a matter of public shame for every teacher - but like hell it is!! They just take their money and run - though not all of course. But after years of pathetic performance its the teachers and the parents that are entirely to blame - EQUALLY!!

African schools and carribbean schools often do much better with vastly less resources than in metro Atlanta!!

And the verbal skills, performance etc of white kids doesn’t seem too good either in many parts of GA, judging from what I see/hear out and about. Reading levels are a joke too for all kids here - I was taught to read before I even went to school at age five - here its too often smug indifference and laziness that prevail. Just so long as the school aint sued and liberal drivel is uncritically pushed so teachers all feel good and the supreme idiocy of self esteem is festered in kids who are dumb, cant pass tests or even talk grammatically!!

now go sneer at Bush and ignore all these legitimate points!!

By time for the truth

June 7, 2006 09:38 AM | Link to this

should be … weak 8th grade pass at maths

my German Shepherd is smarter than your honour student!! - superb bumper sticker

By Karen Armsby

June 7, 2006 10:21 AM | Link to this

Mr. Liberty, I believe that CRH’s comments were tongue in cheek, and meant to mirror the tone of your mesage, which shows your own limited understanding of the public school system. The government is not stealing your money it is collected and allocated via legally sanctioned taxes. And guess what, the government is not a separate power, it is you, and me and other citizens, and it acts with our approval and or indifference. If you don’t like the decisions of elected officials you can work to get others elected. In this blog we are here to discuss how to improve our schools, and all you do is bash and blame with your angry accusations. Your writing is not informative or persuasive. And I am not impressed by your support of homeschool teachers who have no college degree or HELLO! no high school degree. Unless these individuals are incredibly self motivated and well read, then they would not have been qualified to teach my children, and they shortchange their own homeschooled kids. I am college educated and chose public school for my kids and was very satisfied with the results. In high school the level of knowledge in the language arts, social studies, math, and science teachers was impressive. I am happy that my kids could benefit from their expertise.

By Karen Armsby

June 7, 2006 10:35 AM | Link to this

Patti, On topic, I think each of the viewpoints you presented has validity. And we do need school reform. There is not a one size fits all school model that can guarantee success in school. At the bottom of the class; there are fundamentals that need to be addressed, like READING SKILLS and BASIC MATH SKILLS. If schools make sure that all students have achieved grade level standards in these two areas BEFORE advancing them, then most of the achievement problems would be resolved. As to slacker parents and their slacker children; enforce strict classroom discipline, remove problem students from classrooms, and make them earn their way back in, then cut them all loose at 16 years old, whether they have graduated or not. At the top of the class; group kids by ability in subject areas, not age, and let the bright kids move ahead as they can, and don’t hold them back with the slower kids. A bright mind needs to be encouraged and challenged early or it dulls and slows. IMHO, the greatest tragedy in schools is that they are boring the bright kids, not that they are failing the slow or the slackers.

By MrLiberty

June 7, 2006 05:24 PM | Link to this

Karen Armsby,

First of all, just because a law is passed making something legal doesn’t change the nature of its immorality. The 8th commandment doesn’t say “thou shalt not steal…unless the people get together and elect a government that will do it for them” it says “thou shalt not steal.” You rationalize your participation in this immoral act any way you want.

I have a very clear understanding of this topic and what is being discussed. Once again we have business and other leaders saying that the future students of this nation are not going to be prepared to address the business requirements of the future (and others saying things are fine). Meanwhile, virtually everyone who comments on this blog is proposing some top-down centrally managed solution to make sure that this outcome won’t happen. As with any top-down one size fits all approach, these proposals too will fail simply because of their inflexibility.

My criticism of the government run educational system has always been the same. The consumer (parent and child) of the product (educational instruction) has no connection to the delivery of the product and the producer of the product (teachers, administrators, the government) has no direct accountability to the consumer. This results from the fundamentally flawed mechanism of funding schools through the involuntary collection of taxes from everyone, regardless of their interest in the final transaction (stealing the money instead of earning it).

Two consequences fall directly from this situation. First is that the parent of the child (not really having to pay anywhere near the true cost of education) puts no or too low a value on the product. Yes, by the way, I do think that most of us do get that some parents don’t care, and this is part of the reason. They are able to have many children that the rest of society is picking up the check for, and time in school can be viewed as a cheap babysitting service that thankfully allows the parents to go off to their jobs (or just get away from them).

The second consequence is that the producers have no real incentive to actually care about the quality of the product they are delivering. Yes, many teachers care and many try very hard, but fundamentally the system doesn’t care. It doesn’t have to. They come for the money even if you don’t have kids. They come for the money when they fail. They come for even more money when they really fail and then convince you that more spending is the solution. What business do you know that could get away with this?

Some of you will tell me (likely Karen) that I can vote, and I can propose alternatives at school board meetings, etc. I ran for State Senate in California in 1994. I have been involved in the street level political process for a decade and a half and I know that democracy is nothing but mob rule. Constitutions at both state and federal levels were meant to reign in the power of the majority and protect the minority, but they do not. With something as important as education, why would you want mob rule to dictate the outcome anyway?

What I have consistently proposed is the dissolution of the government run school system, an elimination of all related taxes, and so long as there continues to be income and business taxation, the utilization of tax breaks and the like for both individuals and businesses to assist those without the means to afford even the lower cost alternatives that will surely result from a free market in private education.

This will do what no other proposal will do. It will finally force parents to own up to the real costs of their children. It will force them to realize that education has value (and cost), and it will force the producers of these services to have to finally earn the money they get, because every parent will be able to take their money, scholarship, etc. and walk with it somewhere else.

Before you begin the bashing let me just say that for every Woodward Academy there will be a low cost alternative that will do a great job educating kids without all the bells and wistles you might find at the higher priced option. Don’t look at today’s marketplace as any example. Private schools today are able to charge what they charge because of the taxes, etc. and the lack of interest and customers. As well, there will be people who want to help out the worst kids. They might employ different methods and may be more strict, etc. but just as there are saints who help out the homeless you will see similar situations in a free market of education. Give some tax incentives to businesses and getting charitable contributions for such schools will be even easier. A better question to you all is why there is so much focus on the kids who don’t care. Why would you want to make your kids suffer so much just because you are afraid of what will happen to the ones whose parent’s don’t care about them. Is that really the right priority?

The one thing my proposal doesn’t do is let you parents off the hook. Now you can blame the teachers, administrators, school board, redistricting plan, those kids with parents that don’t care, or whatever scapegoat works. My proposal will require you to finally be in charge of your kids’ education (whether you homeschool or choose a private school) and that kind of responsibility I have no doubt scares most of you. It should. Your resolve has been so beaten by the current system that you can’t possibly imagine being empowered when it comes to your kids education. Trust me. If it works for getting food on your table (a process far more complicated than education), then it will work for education too.

One other thing. Yes, I am condemning the system that educated you too. There is no way around it. I’m sorry. It is an immoral system founded on socialist principles and was desiged originally as a way to undermine the cultural values that the great Catholic waves of immigrants were bringing with them to america in the latter half of the 19th century. If you got a good education out of the system, then great. It probably could have been better. Frankly most schools were better when you went there. You didn’t invent the system. Your parents aren’t scum for putting you through it, but you have an opportunity to begin dismantling it so that future generations can maybe get a better chance at a great education.

By Laf

June 7, 2006 05:59 PM | Link to this

then everyone will be able to reach their full potential. Everyone does not have the same potential. We need to lean toward the philosophy of special education. Everyone needs an IEP.

By SET

June 7, 2006 07:01 PM | Link to this

Mr. Liberty:

That last post was a great read.

Keep explaining these points in the Education Blog as the subjects and treads shift. We need this point of view out front in the open.

I believe your position is logical. I suppose the problem is, who cares about logic - and results - and productivity?

The US is into Mob Rule. The Constitution has consistently been “adjusted” for the sake of convenience during the 20th Century to the point that the normal political process and checks and balances it was intended to establish and maintain are gone now.

And the People in the US by and large don’t care. It’s Bread and Circus time and debased currency - we could do a HBO Miniseries about the last 50 years.

In undergraduate school I spent 2 years taking classes in Economic History. I think I understand where you are coming from on a systems approach.

But I don’t think the population cares anymore. They don’t know any better and they really believe what they hear on TV and the mainstream media - not what years of reading history and research will tell them.

I hoped that regressive changes in educational policy might improve the lives of people who aren’t being prepared to take care of themselves. Maybe it’s time to spend more energy on improving the chances for those smart enough to see what is coming soon in the country.

Whatever is coming, the odds are life will be very different (and not easier) in the US in another generation.

By Karen Armsby

June 8, 2006 09:27 AM | Link to this

Mr. Liberty, There are problems in public schools, problems with PC administrations and deficient teachers, but IMHO public school education works well more often than not. The fact is that statistics of public school achievement are depressed by the group of slacker children of slacker parents. Good parenting make the difference in all education venues. Statistics make homeschooling and private school look good because there are no slackers skewing the statistics! There is a direct connection between parents and students and public school providers. Parents are free to choose the school district they live in; free to work with teachers and school administrators to improve classrooms or school conditions; free to campaign for and vote for their local school board rep, with whom they can also communicate. The problem with your advocacy of dissolution of all public schools is that it ignores the simple fact that most of us want public schools and prefer to put our heads together to fix the problems, than scrap the whole system. And if public school goes away how do we educate the kids of the absent or uninvolved parents who have no money, who would not spend their money on a school, or who would choose to let their kids roam free?

By MrLiberty

June 8, 2006 04:47 PM | Link to this

Karen,

Socialists were appologizing and justifying the failures of the old Soviet Union even after the fall of the Berlin Wall.

You have not made a choice as to your support of the government schools, the state has purchased your support with my money. You justify your support any way you need to - as I expressed last time.

There will come a time in this country when the schools are finally doing so poorly that there is no other choice but to do things the right way - the way every other great achievement in the history of man has been achieved - through capitalism and the free market. Until then, why don’t you and your fellow “parents” put your heads together and see if you can’t come up with a good explanation as to why you won’t allow the victims of this system to get out from under its destructive hold. Putting your heads together certainly is doing no good for the improvement of the schools.

And by the way, cracks about people’s abilities to move to good school districts are just insulting. You moved where you did just so that you could make sure your kids were not with the folks who cannot afford to live where you live. You put up a good front about caring for the one’s left behind, but you support a system that victimizes the poorest most of all. My system at least offers an opportunity for empowerment and a way out.

By lovie

June 8, 2006 04:51 PM | Link to this

Have anyone noticed a correlation between the drop out rate and the onset of “high stakes testing” - it seems that the testing is doing the very thing that it should “fix”

By MrLiberty

June 8, 2006 04:56 PM | Link to this

Also Karen, I wanted to remind you of a post of your’s from some time back:

By Karen Armsby

September 15, 2005 09:33 AM | Link to this

LaTeekey, The property taxes you pay in one school district only support the schools in that district. Those taxes do not support the schools in another school district. It’s simple, move into the district served by the better schools, your property taxes will support those schools, and you will be entitled to enroll your children in the schools in that district.

If you cheat, then you are lying and stealing, and that is a horrible example to set for your children. Parents are their children first teachers, and when you teach them that cheating, i.e. lying and stealing, is OK, then you are not giving them the best education.

So when the government steals on behalf of all the parents who don’t want to have to pay the true costs for their kids’ education, what sort of education are they giving their kids?? Maybe you and the other parents can put your heads together and come up with an answer to that one as well.

By Laf

June 8, 2006 05:12 PM | Link to this

Karen your argument makes a heck of a lot more sense than the argument made by Mr. Liberty. The poor and uneducated really needs the support of a government. If you turned their education over to our system of private enterprise without any type of government supervision the big rich guys would have a field day setting up schools for those poor educated people. Would be just another joke like Enron and Exxon. Money, Money, Money. Those compassionate Republicans. Ha! Ha!

By Karen Armsby

June 8, 2006 06:42 PM | Link to this

Laf, thanks, and guess what I am a Republican, just goes to show, you can’t judge a book…. I want the negative No Child Left Behind changed to the positive Every Child Working to Their Potential.

By Karen Armsby

June 8, 2006 06:44 PM | Link to this

Mr. Liberty, Whatever you say, blog on…..

By Karen Armsby

June 9, 2006 08:24 AM | Link to this

correction; Every Child Working to His or Her Potential.

By Karen Armsby

June 9, 2006 09:10 AM | Link to this

Mr. Liberty, If you were so good at researching what I posted previously you would find that I said we don’t live in an affluent area, that in fact it is a very mixed socioeconomic area. We are not rich, not upper middle class, just middle class, thank you very much. We chose our county because of the good reputation for schools. Our lifestyle is very modest, and we have invested much more in books and our children, eschewing a high lifestyle. Our house is paid for, we drive used vehicles, and carry no debt. Mr. Liberty, your name is in stark contrast to your comments, for you do not appear to enjoy any liberty; you are not free; you are shackled by bitterness and negativity. Einstein said there is one important decision we have to make in our lives: Do I live in a friendly universe, or do I live in a hostile universe? I live in a friendly universe, how about you, Mr. Liberty?

By WFC

June 9, 2006 09:10 AM | Link to this

I’ve been teaching in public and private schools since 1975. One thing I’ve learned is that academic classes aren’t for everyone. However, a college degree does open doors for the individual and none of us knows at 18 which doors we might want to open. I don’t know the solution to this problem. Another thing to consider though (out of the box): what if EVERY student was brilliant and achieved a Ph. D.? SOMEBODY would still have to do the “non-academic” jobs in society. We only need so many highly skilled professional people. What happens to the highly trained people who achieved in academia and who are relegated by the market to “dead end” jobs?

By MrLiberty

June 9, 2006 12:39 PM | Link to this

Millions upon millions of companies in the big world delivering the most diverse and wonderful products and services to even the poorest among us and the only examples of a private business you can come up with are Enron and Exxon. Wow, you folks should get to a library or better yet, to www.mises.org and get a better education on economics. Thanks SET by the way for your encouraging words. There are some who get it.

First of all both Enron and Exxon have nothing to do with the free market. Everything they do is heavily regulated by the federal government, and the horrible things they were able to get away with were a direct result of this failed oversight along with rules that encouraged their behavior. It would take way to long just to cover the subject of crony-capitalism (or merchantilism as it was known when Lincoln and that bunch of Republicans were promoting it - by the way, the Republicans have pretty much always promoted this type of policy.)

“Better the devil you know” is the attitude you folks are taking. You don’t know what the real business world is about and you certainly don’t know what types of wonderful possibilities might be in store for students under a truly free market system. You automatically assume that the poor (or whatever generic group you want to lump them in) will be left out. Believe it or not, there are pleny of others like you who feel the same way, but instead of wringing their hands, they will get together and start the kind of schools that will address these kids. So long as there is a profit to be made, there will be those who will provide the service.

But like Enron, Exxon, and every other private company, the customer will have a choice of whether or not to do business with them. If they fail to deliver a quality product (breach of contract) they can be sued, or at least they can be boycotted. Thousands of kids are failed every year by the government schools and there is no recourse, no out, no real alternative.

You speak of my suggestions in a way that makes the current situation sound like Utopia. I make no promises to that end, but I know that you can get a lot closer to Utopia through real choice and the creative ideas of entrepreneurs than you can by simply doing the same things over and over again (and lets face it, all of these suggestions have been tried before).

As I have said before - hey, they are your kids. You don’t really want anything to change, but somehow you think that it will. That type of cause and effect doesn’t work on this planet.

By Karen Armsby

June 9, 2006 06:47 PM | Link to this

Mr. Liberty, How exactly would you educate the underclass in your anarchistic society? And who or what is stopping you or anyone else from starting the free enterprise schools you tout? Can’t find the backers? BTW we bloggers are not stupid, and we GET IT. We mostly just don’t agree with you and frankly, your diatribes are making my eyes water. BTW thanks for your continued contribution to the public education of our children through your property taxes.

By SET

June 12, 2006 10:15 AM | Link to this

Here’s a new stat in from the June 4th edition of The Los Angeles Times.

4852 freshman are being enrolled ay University of California Los Angeles this fall. 96 of them are black, 20 of those are “recruited athletes”. Meaning that 1.56% of the freshmen class are blacks there as “students”. This is the lowest number for the black students since 1973.

Even for California this represents a new low. The reduction is attributed to passage of California’s Prop 209 in 1999 which makes Affirmative Action illegal in state schools and hiring.

In other articles I’ve noticed lately the University Professional Schools are reporting historical lows, in some cases two students.

I see these sort of “new” stats floating by in this state all the time now. Our public and private schools are not developing students as well as I believe they could.

Obviously the parents make a big difference - but around here not only do both parents have to work in the high-tax economy we’ve created, they have to commute an hr each way and may have a weekend job to boot. So conditions here are worse than 25 or 50 years ago when it comes to time and energy to work on child development. We depend more on the schools now than two generations ago.

PS - the fact that the black numbers are crashing doesn’t mean the white numbers are going up. They are going south in favor of hispanic and other immigrant ethnics. Without Affirmative Action to impose Asian Caps on school admission (dirty little secret of AA - somebody must lose for others to win) the Asian numbers are swamping the other ethnics - which is what you’d expect since they are the highest IQ group, only matched by the European Jewish ethnic who (seems to) strictly limit their reproduction rate.

Previously I’ve commented on the government using immigration policy to fire the people of the USA and replace them with new people more to the government’s liking…

Brave New World.

By jim d

June 12, 2006 10:36 AM | Link to this

So now you have a problem with a level playing field?

Let’s forget about race and just look at elgibility. What you are proposing through affirmative action actually discriminates against other minorities.

How in heavens name do you justify that in your little pea-pickin brain?

By SET

June 12, 2006 12:11 PM | Link to this

Jim,

I assume you are trying to respond to my above post without saying so directly.

I can’t follow you very well. Can you tell us something about your background so that I can address whatever this is you asked in terms you can understand?

Maybe you are referring to previous posts.. Exactly what “proposal” are you referring to?

My position on AA should be clear to you. Ban it.

My position on public school education should be clear to you - IQ test the students periodically and place them in programs that make the most of their brain processing speed. Remove non-performing students from all the academic schools and put them into trade schools and apprentice programs if they can pass muster. Make the schools a safe and stable learning and working environment by removal of disordered students.

This is without regard to race. The results will not be race neutral since some ethnics have advantages that result in disproportionate academic success. Under our present system I believe we’re creating such chaos the bright black students can’t rise so I believe changes such as this will produce higher achievement in raw numbers and percentages of black students who are now being lost.

A caveat - any system that stabilizes public schools and improves performance will also enhance the already better performance of the immigrant students. So while your raw numbers may improve for the worst-off ethnic, their percentage of the total will not improve and may decrease as the other groups take advantage of the changes in greater numbers.

Simply put the black minority on the west coast is overwhelmed by US sponsored Asian, Hispanic and African immigrants. Every gain percentage-wise since the Civil Rights movement of the 1960’s is being (permanently) wiped out, political power, civil service jobs, union membership, trades, Attorney & Physician licenses, etc. I’m wondering what is your experience on the East Coast. Maybe California is just a fluke and it’s not happening in GA. (Yet?)

And Jim, your petty epithets don’t work with me - I’m not here for anybody’s love - only to exchange ideas on education/public policy. Anybody on this blog who resorts to name calling can’t cut it in public discourse.

I might be right or wrong about any given point. If you have something to add to the coversation or to contradict a point - advance your point of view if you can.

I’m happy to continue reading your posts, all of them.

Blog On!

By BlindHomer

June 12, 2006 01:04 PM | Link to this

SET, We have considerably smaller Asian and Hispanic populations (2.6% and 6.8%)than Calif