Get Schooled

By C.R.H.

May 30, 2006 03:56 PM | Link to this

The problem wih this scenerio is that new teachers will be saddled with low performing students and their test scores will show it. So what then? That teacher has crappy test scores & no parent would want their child in that teaher’s class and so the cycle begins. I teach every level of student (the brightest of the bright & also the kids who get lost in their own front yard) and the test scores show this. If someone were to look at my worst class, they would think I couldn’t teach my way out of a paper bag. But overall I have some of the highest test scores. My “on-level” classes outperform some of the “honors” level classes on the EOCT. I really don’t want parents to be able to dictate who takes my class & who doesn’t. While it may be flattering to have people requesting my class, it isn’t fair that only those who have “friends in high places” can decide which teachers their kids will have. On the flip side, many parents will “teacher shop”, find the teacher that inflates grades so little joey or janie qualifies for HOPE.

By Laf

May 30, 2006 04:37 PM | Link to this

By V for Vendetta

May 30, 2006 05:06 PM | Link to this

Oh good lord, what a terrible idea. While I agree that some teachers are flat out horrible, this is not the answer. What will the teachers of Technical level students have to show for themselves? I’m sorry, but there is only so much the almighty god-like teacher can do. Sometimes you just have a bad class. That may sound like passing the buck to some of you, but the teachers out there know what I am talking about.

Case in point: This year I had a normal assortment of classes, except for my sixth period. They were terrible. More kids in that class failed than in my other four combined. Most of them looked and acted like the genetic accidents that they were. The brightest future for half of them would probably be cleaning the toilets at McDonald’s. No, wait, more like a Quick-E-Mart. If someone were to judge me on them, how would I look? In contrast to how I would look if someone looked at my honors kids’ test scores.

Another factor worth considering is that many parents of smart, well-adjusted kids are more likely to make them stick it out and overcome adversity than switch them around all the time. It’s the parents of the dullards who want changes constantly. And remember this, for every wonderful teacher who had a room full of bright kids that were psched about learning, there would be a classroom of rejects stuck with a teacher considered “sub-par” by parents. What a mess.

This is not something people should be wasting their time focusing on. We have many more issues in education in this state that are FAR more pressing.

By teach overseas

May 30, 2006 05:18 PM | Link to this

Why is it that people have this idea that there are “highly qualified” motivated and experienced teachers pounding on the door desperate to get in and all the while the school is holding back the door to protect it’s incompetent staff?

Get the facts folks, principals know that some of their staff is less than desirable, but there is NO ONE ELSE! (Especially in the hard to fill spots like math, science and special ed) Georgia faces a teacher shortage year after year. Massive teacher retirements, and 3 out of 5 new teachers leave within the first few years, citing low pay and student behavior problems as the cause. And like it or not, there has to be a warm body in front of that classroom on the first day of school.

The bad ones? Well, you got what you paid for didn’t you? The good ones? Thank your lucky stars there is a person in your kids classroom who is good and effective- because you sure as heck are not paying them enough to be there doing that good of a job.

By C.R.H.

May 30, 2006 05:30 PM | Link to this

Just out of curiosity…what “reward” do the teachers who are “performing” get? If my test scores are the highest then I should be the highest paid, right? Or maybe I get to pick which classes I want to teach (ALL honors classes, of course). I can see a whole new can of worms opening with this! I can just imagine using my test scores to negotiate those little perks I want…removal of discipline problems, no more sped or SST kids (too many meetings & extra paperwork & they lower my scores), my own classroom (no floating), the largest classroom, extra money for technology and my list could get bigger with a little more thought. I am starting to like this idea!

By Dondon

May 30, 2006 06:45 PM | Link to this

Teachers don’t grow on trees. Let’s get rid of all the bad teachers. That sounds good but it doesn’t work that way. There isn’t enough teachers as it is. Not many people are willing to put with what teachers face ever day. Georgia is not a top state for recruiting teachers. The pay is average at best.

By fed up

May 30, 2006 06:50 PM | Link to this

I know of a parent who emailed the principal and copied the teacher that she didn’t like. She told both that the teacher is “not a good fit” for her kid for starters. She then told them that not only would she and her kid be miserable in that class, but that the teacher would also be miserable with them because she would not be able to control her urge to bug that teacher and the principal to death every day. She said it worked like a charm.

Not an approach I would take - but I’m sure it is effective. Who wants to knowingly take on a parent who has promised to be a complete nightmare?

I’m not terribly fond of this parent, but I must say that she uses the fact that public schools don’t get to pick their families to her advantage quite well.

By SET

May 30, 2006 07:12 PM | Link to this

This is an interesting post.

Public Schools are the lowest common denominator. They are not there to please the parents because the parents are not the ones calling the shots. If the parents want to be taken seriously they’d better move their kids to an expensive private school. $10 - 20 K a year buys you a voice. Free does not.

As Public School parents find out they have no say over where the kid goes, who teaches him and what he is taught. This is not Burger King.

And yes - the cohort that a teacher winds up with has a lot to do with how things turn out. There was a controversy in Pasedena CA where a teacher named Scott Phelps was in serious political hot water when he dared write a memo to his fellow teachers stating that it was unfair to tie teacher pay to class performance when it was clear that demographically his school would be getting more and more minorities each year and thus the school must expect performance to decline over historical (white based) levels due to racial IQ distribution. He believed the teachers were being set up for both a pay cut and to be blamed for what they were in no way responsible for.

You can find the resulting uproar by an internet search. The teacher was suspended for discussing among his fellow teachers the truth the public school wanted to suppress while they screwed their teachers over financially. Do you think the school administrators didn’t run these stats before they proposed that pay adjustment?

Basically life isn’t fair and it’s not politically correct either. And the workers had better organize and be prepared to defend themselves from deceitful & duplicious management.

That’s life.

Brave New World.

By Educatorx3

May 30, 2006 07:20 PM | Link to this

I am a bit confused by the statement “demonstrated gains in student test scores.” If teachers were actually judged on “gains” in test scores, most would be seen as good teachers. The whole idea of “adequate yearly progress” according to the law, is measuring this year’s students against last year’s students. This data can (should) only be used to detect trends in instructional strength/weakness over several years.

If we want to use test scores to measure the success of instruction, then we should administer a pre-test in August and a post-test in May. That is the only true way to evaluate instruction.

I agree that with the research - the teacher is the biggest factor in the success of instruction. But there are more ways to determine success than a single test score.

In Georgia we now have a “Master Teacher” designation. I have read the qualifications. With a PhD in Curriculum & Instruction, 15 years of teaching experience - at multiple levels, and National Board Certification, I would not qualify as a “master teacher” because I could not demonstrate gains in student achievement according to standardized tests! My last three years in the classroom were in an inter-disciplinary gifted program. My students were already in the 98th percentile…these students do not show gains according to standardized measures!

If we really want to improve education, we ought to put our best, most experienced teachers with the students who struggle the most.

Are there bad teachers? Of course! Should we get them out of the classroom? If there is no hope for improvement, yes! Should our decision be based on a single test score? Absolutely not! As a teacher of teachers, I believe I can help most of my students become better teachers. As a former administrator, I believe there is a responsibility on the part of the school system (and the university) to help a struggling teacher improve. But as a parent, I also believe that there are limits on how long a “bad” teacher should stand in front of my child.

By holdingAJC"accountable"

May 30, 2006 07:37 PM | Link to this

What I would like to hold Ms. Downey “accountable” for is that she ALWAYS comments on teachers, but NEVER comments on administrators. I have worked in schools with a DRASTIC drop in scores in just one year. Same teachers, same students…but a new (incompetent) administrator. Yet when the AJC laments low test scores they ALWAYS focus on the teachers.

This makes no sense, as teachers by and large come from education programs in college, and administrators by and large come from the ranks of teachers. In other words, administrators and teachers basically come from the same talent pool.

So why does the AJC editorial board ALWAYS question the competence of teachers and NEVER question the competence of administrators?

Perhaps the “Get Schooled” team could get a response from Downey or her cohorts?

By Karen Armsby

May 30, 2006 07:58 PM | Link to this

holding ajc accountable, I agree, there is something weird that happens to teachers when they transform into administrators. Could it be Because they cease to be teachers, and are just middle management rule enforcers, with no thinking allowed by their handlers?

By GAPeachTeacher

May 30, 2006 08:30 PM | Link to this

How timely is this discussion? Just today, my very passive administrators informed me that 10 of my parents wanted to select their child’s teacher for next year. They were “pleasantly surprised” to learn that I opted to loop to 3rd grade with my class. I did so for a few different reasons.

I know the strengths & weaknesses of my students and can begin reinforcement in their areas of opportunity on the first day of school. With there being such a gap between the 2nd and 3rd grade curriculum and test requirements, I won’t need to utilize the first weeks acclimating them to their new class. Let’s leap into learning!!

Also, there are so many behavior problems present among the rising 2nd graders that I fear I will toss my love for educating children (and possibly a few children) out of the window!! My administrators and the board at my charter school allow the derelects to disrupt the learning of most students with their ridiculous and violent behaviors.

With this said, no matter how effective a teacher is with classroom instruction, a few bad apples definitely ruin the bunch. I find that my brightest students attempt to emulate the behaviors of the disciplinary problems, who couldn’t catch a clue if it was handed to them.

How does this relate to test scores? If you’ve got a bunch of kids jumping around & being distractive, minimal teaching takes place and subsequently little learning occurs. Imagine the line of parents willing to take responsibility when this occurs, saying “I handpicked this!!”

By Jeff

May 31, 2006 09:04 AM | Link to this

I’ll support this idea when parents and students are held JUST AS accountable as teachers, and ONLY THEN.

By Taxpayer

May 31, 2006 11:29 AM | Link to this

If parents want to start picking their kids’ teachers, then let them enroll their little darlings in private school. Will these parents also try to pick their kids’ professors in college?

This past year, my child landed in a math class with a teacher who had little tolerance for bad behavior and lazy kids. One kid even threw a stapler at her! Kids complained because they didn’t like said teacher, and the next thing you know, parents are lining up to move their kids to another class. My child remained in the class because she was doing well. Other parents called and urged me to complain about the teacher. I had no reason to complain, so I didn’t. Instead, I supported the teacher. My child did well in the class and aced all the standardized tests for the year.

Good teacher? Bad teacher? I don’t know, but I think Jeff has it right: if you are going to hold the teacher accountable, you had better take a good, hard look at the kids the teacher must work with and the parents who come along as part of the package.

By jim d

May 31, 2006 01:01 PM | Link to this

Well I guess I fit the mold of a parent that used a bit of influence on an occassion or two to request a certain teacher based on my knowledge of how they taught. Basically though because I was aware of how my child learns.

Personally I like the idea, but then I like the idea of both students and teachers choosing. And lets be honest here, teachers can and do refuse certain students. I know this is highly unusual, but I also know it happens. I have a teacher friend in Dekalb that just this past year put it all on the line—either the student goes or you find a replacement teacher.

It worked, they reassigned the student.

By hs sped

May 31, 2006 02:35 PM | Link to this

What do you do with special ed kids? Where do you put them? They don’t have a lot of choices as per their teachers and special ed scores don’t show a whole bunch of improvement. Sometimes progress is measured in teaspoons.

By Competitive

May 31, 2006 06:53 PM | Link to this

I teach 7th grade Social Studies at a low-income, highly-diverse school. I am the first teacher to lay blame at the feet of deadbeat parents, crappy administrators, and lazy students. They definitely make teaching nearly impossible. However, if I were a parent, there are definitely teachers at my school who I would never want to teach my kids. These are the teachers whose students are so loud the teacher next door can’t teach her class. These are the teachers who will see a student hit, kick, spit on, etc. another student but will not even bother to tell the student to stop. These are the teachers who have to be given lesson plans and assignments (after being given objectives, staff development, etc.) and still have the nerve to ask for an answer key to work they are assigning to middle school kids. And yes, these are the teachers who have OVER HALF of their student fail the Gateway and/or CRCT in the subject they teach.

I don’t think teachers should be judged on test scores alone. I also don’t think any one test gives an accurate reflection of the teaching taking place in a classroom. However, I do know that the CRCT and other such tests assess BASIC knowledge and skills with a cut score just higher than marking C for every answer. When I see teachers who have consistently low test scores (usually while the students have all A’s and B’s), no classroom management skills, and no initiative to plan adequate lessons, I want them to be fired. It makes adequate teachers (which is all I claim to be), good teachers, and great teachers alike lose the respect we deserve.

Do I want parents choosing their kids’ teacher? No. Is it difficult to find enough teachers to fill the classroom? Yes. Is that any reason to keep people in a teaching position when they are overwhelmingly not qualified to be in a classroom? No.

I would rather teach a class of 60 students and get paid the salary of 2 teachers than see 30 of those students in a horrible teacher’s class. Until we teachers admit that some of our collegues need to go, the teaching profession will continue to be underpaid, disrespected, and lacking any decision-making power in our educational system.

I want a system developed that determines that determines which teachers really are outstanding, great, good, average, or sucky. The system definitely needs to look at more than test scores. Then, I want each category of teacher to be paid based on their performance.

By jim d

June 1, 2006 09:32 AM | Link to this

Competitive,

Ideally parents and teachers choosing each other based on teaching and learning styles would be beneficial for students and teachers alike. This however would require school administrations to honestly evaluate both and open a dialogue with parents, which I think we can all agree will never happen

By Middle School Teacher in DeKalb

June 1, 2006 11:13 AM | Link to this

What do test scores really measure? You have students who make fairly decent grades, but they may be terrible test-takers. I, for one, was never a good test-taker, but I was an A-B student. I do agree that there are some teachers who are very ineffective in the classroom. However there are those teachers who work really hard and almost never raise test scores. That is because every year they are given the lowest of the low. The students are often referred to as “level 1”, meaning they did not meet expectations on the CRCT. If every year the teacher across the hall receives all of the students who met or exceeded expectations then it looks like they are very effective. In my opinion, teachers who teach the “smart guys” do not have to work as hard as the ones who have the lower level students. Most students who make good grades are go-getters so they are going to take the initiative to study. They want to learn.

I totally disagree with looking at test scores to measure a teacher’s success. There is a whole lot more to it.

By C.R.H.

June 1, 2006 11:55 AM | Link to this

I don’t know of any teacher who hasn’t admitted there are poor teachers in our schools. Teachers want bad teachers out of the classroom, they make the job harder for those of us that do our job. So the comment about “until teachers admit…” is off the mark. I really don’t care if I get judged by my test scores since they are usually the highest or very close to it. And I do teach some of the low students (about 1/2 of my courses are the classes no one else wants to teach). My on-level students outperform some “honors classes”. I teach kids how to take tests all year long and I reinforce the strategies with every test I give. My tests are also more difficult then the standardized tests. I don’t want a “cookie” or a pat on my back or a plaque to put on my wall, what I would like is for people (parents & administrators) to get the hell out of my way and quit telling me how I need to be doing my job. More money would be nice too.

By Teacher Teacher

June 1, 2006 12:40 PM | Link to this

The failure of public education in America rests squarely on the shoulders of administrators and school boards. Once a teacher becomes an administrator, it is as if all scrutiny of his/her function disappears. It would seem that once annointed, an administrator can do no wrong; however, that idea is very wrong-headed! I’ve been teaching for twenty-plus years, and I can attest that experience and training mean nothing in the great promotional scheme of things. Promotion rests solely on whom you know or to whom you have a relation, either by blood or through sexual or fraternal/sororal or familial relations. How else to explain why a teacher with a BSED and three years of experience was placed in charge of a new program to retrain all teachers in the building? How else to explain why a person who is not even thirty years old and did not teach a full year in the classroom is now in charge of personnel for a major metro school system? How else to explain why a middle school math teacher who failed the certification test six times was removed from the classroom and now serves as principal of a middle school in a major metro school system? I could go on and on.

Click here to find more information.

By Teacher Teacher

June 1, 2006 12:51 PM | Link to this

unbroken link for above comment, hopefully…

LINK

By FCteach

June 13, 2006 12:05 PM | Link to this

It’s All About the Teacher

When the door closes to a teacher’s classroom it is all about the teacher and the students in her class. I include the parents of those students as well. I remember clearly hearing a parent outside my door saying in effect, oh great a new teacher this will be a difficult year. I did not find out who that parent was because I knew it would influence how I felt about the child.

Defining a teacher as successful by the test scores of one year is too limiting. A lot of what teacher’s do is not captured on standardized tests. Since everyone begins the year with a different set of students comparing teachers test scores for one year would not be valid. In the school I just left a teacher I consider to be excellent, essentially had a class full of special needs kids this year. I bet her scores reflect that. It does not change how I think about that teacher. It does change how I feel about the people who put that class together.

Sometimes unpopular teachers are unpopular not because of test scores but because they make kids work hard or because they don’t have winning personalities. I have heard parents say that they didn’t want a kid in someone’s class because they give a lot of work. While I think there might be a good reason to create classes of teachers and students that work well together, I don’t think giving parents the test scores and allowing them to pick teachers based on that is the answer.