Get Schooled

By Beccaann

May 17, 2006 09:25 AM | Link to this

I don’t think degrees make that much difference in middle school. Some of our most successful teachers do not even have a master’s.

By Dekalb Educator

May 17, 2006 09:36 AM | Link to this

The only way that I know who has a doctorate in my school is because they want to be called “Dr.”. Maybe it is just my environment, but the teachers I know that have their doctorate degree (or is working on one) are only doing it to receive higher pay.

Of course if the principal has one, he/she gets paid MORE if he/she has teachers in the building that also have their doctorate degrees. This is because the principal has to be paid a certain percentage MORE than the highest paid doctorate teacher.

In my eyes, it just seems it is about status..and getting paid more.

And to answer your question..no, I do not want a doctorate.

By a high school teacher

May 17, 2006 09:45 AM | Link to this

No. Teachers do not need doctorates. In fact, I have no respect for a doctorate in education in itself because most education classes and programs are bogus and useless, taught by people who either have never taught in schools, barely taught, or failed at teaching. However, I am forced to consider getting a bogus specialist or doctorate degree and sitting through the waste of time classes writing dissertaions full of gobbledygook and educator speak, even though I am an excellent teacher, only because having a bogus degree is the only avenue for me to get paid close to what I’m worth.

By a high school teacher

May 17, 2006 09:45 AM | Link to this

No. Teachers do not need doctorates. In fact, I have no respect for a doctorate in education in itself because most education classes and programs are bogus and useless, taught by people who either have never taught in schools, barely taught, or failed at teaching. However, I am forced to consider getting a bogus specialist or doctorate degree and sitting through the waste of time classes writing dissertaions full of gobbledygook and educator speak, even though I am an excellent teacher, only because having a bogus degree is the only avenue for me to get paid close to what I’m worth.

By Jeff

May 17, 2006 09:47 AM | Link to this

My goal is to be the best. (Period) A doctorate degree is the highest degree available, and therefore yes, I do want one. I also want to be National Board Certified in both Math and Social Studies within the decade.

As far as other teachers with doctorates: most of them do appear to have a chip on their shoulder about it, but that’s EVERYWHERE in academia. I try to be very low-key and down to earth right now, and I will work to make sure I STAY that way when the doctorate is hanging on my wall next to my other accomplishments (which are already decently impressive).

By Jeff

May 17, 2006 09:51 AM | Link to this

Oh, and BTW: As a graduate of Kennesaw State, I will say this: KSU is a GREAT school and I encourage anyone to go there for anything OTHER than an EDU degree. The EDUC department is ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE.

By Jo Ann BArron

May 17, 2006 09:55 AM | Link to this

Yes,It should be required for all teachers.

By Mike

May 17, 2006 09:56 AM | Link to this

I have met many, many people with doctorates and I have yet to be impressed by one of them. All a doctorate means is that they have wasted more time and money in college then most people.

By teach overseas

May 17, 2006 10:06 AM | Link to this

Why is it vulgar for teachers to do something that will get them paid more money? Don’t most people in business get their MBA’s to get promotions at work and get more money? Don’t doctors learn new things and get more letters after their name to get more money? Why are teachers supposed to be above it all? I love teaching- but I have bills too you know.

By t

May 17, 2006 10:18 AM | Link to this

You its really said that some of you feel that earning a doctorate is a waste of time. I imagine that you feel this way because you are to lazy to go back to school and get one. If Georgia schools were so great we wouldn’t be so deficient in academic areas. So yes, teachers should get doctoral degrees if the option is available to them!

By Leia

May 17, 2006 10:22 AM | Link to this

I’m working on my doctorate right now, and nobody even knows about it! Once I’m done, I doubt very seriously if I’ll be referred to as Dr. Leia! Trust me, I am not getting it for status purposes. I’m already very secure!

My Master’s degree was an education degree, and it was basically jumping through hoops. My specialist degree was actual work, and I did learn from the coursework, and I believe it made me a better teacher. The Ph.D. is actual work too, and I’m learning a ton of relevant approaches to make me a better teacher.

But, the bottom line is - I want the pay raise! My kids are getting older and more expensive!

By Beccaann

May 17, 2006 10:23 AM | Link to this

Unlike some parts of the private sector, teachers must pay up front for any classes that they take. I have taken enough to get several degrees, but haven’t been able to do it in a timely manner. Please, I am not complaining about my pay. I knew what I was getting in to when I went into teaching.

By jim d

May 17, 2006 10:37 AM | Link to this

Who really cares? Well other than a teacher that want’s the bucks. But hey, they aren’t in it for the money,—— just ask any teacher.

:-)

By PC

May 17, 2006 10:37 AM | Link to this

I do not believe a doctoral degree is necessary in order to be a more effective teacher. What is necessary is the love of children and the passion to inspire the love for learning in them. Any good teacher I have had the privilege of working with has been able to stay current with education research (outside of degree programs) because they take pride in their profession and know it is an essential element to be the best they can possibly be. Degree programs seldom teach you the people and empathy skills that are so critically needed today to assist with the diversity present in our schools. Granted, those extra letters at the end of your name do add to an already less-than-deserved salary, but they can’t replace true passion and commitment.

By PC

May 17, 2006 10:38 AM | Link to this

I do not believe a doctoral degree is necessary in order to be a more effective teacher. What is necessary is the love of children and the passion to inspire the love for learning in them. Any good teacher I have had the privilege of working with has been able to stay current with education research (outside of degree programs) because they take pride in their profession and know it is an essential element to be the best they can possibly be. Degree programs seldom teach you the people and empathy skills that are so critically needed today to assist with the diversity present in our schools. Granted, those extra letters at the end of your name do add to an already less-than-deserved salary, but they can’t replace true passion and commitment.

By kirb

May 17, 2006 10:40 AM | Link to this

If our teachers had bachelor’s degrees in the subject field they teach they would be far more qualified than any education Ph.D.

By Jennifer

May 17, 2006 10:42 AM | Link to this

Amen, high school teacher!

I am a high school teacher as well, and I am sick to death seeing people in my county “earn” those nonsense degrees — specialist’s degrees from no-name universities where they go one Saturday a month and after a year have “earned” a degree. The only industry that recognizes specialist’s degrees is education, anyway, right?

But most of all, I have too much pride to get a degree from these places.

(For those of you who are wondering, these places are not the “diploma mills” we have seen in recent years, but neither are they particularly well-known universities or particularly rigorous programs. Ask a teacher. Even with the financial rewards of an advanced degree, ultimately, teachers go by the droves for the degrees because these programs are easy, and the financial reward is great. Many of the people who attend are teachers in their final few years of teaching who want to ensure that their annual pay for each of their last few years is as high as possible for retirement calculations.) The thing is, the last time I checked, earning a meaningful doctorate or other advanced degree wasn’t supposed to be easy. I think the end result such programs devalue the meaning of a master’s or doctorate degree that was truly earned, particularly in a non-education field. And the reward is no different for someone who has a master’s in physics, for example, compared to a master’s in education.

But to answer the question, no, I do not believe that a doctorate is necessary to teach K-12. As high school teacher said, it’s all theory and frou-frou. A more meaningful doctorate would be in one’s specialty. But if I were going to go back to school for a Ph.D. in engineering or mathematics (my undergrad major and my subject area) it would take far more work and time than I would be able to devote and still teach; and it wouldn’t serve me any purpose in my classroom because I would end up being too specialized at too high a level for what I teach. Maybe that’s not the case in all subject areas, but it renders the motivation for me to get a doctorate to a strictly financial one. If I needed the money, as many people do, I would find a way to attend a meaningful program that would let me take pride in my accomplishment. Maybe that’s just me.

By jim d

May 17, 2006 10:45 AM | Link to this

As a parent, taxpayer and business man I must say I really appreciate (& I do) the few teachers here honest enough with themselves to just admit it’s not just the degree but the money associated with it.

THANK YOU. I’d vote for you few to be paid more regardless, just because of your honesty and integrity.

By TechFella

May 17, 2006 10:46 AM | Link to this

I think it would be more beneficial for teachers to study something else for a while, like say engineering or business. It just seems somewhat odd to me that most of the people responsible for teaching our kids have no real knowledge of the actual material. For example, as an engineering student at Tech I think I could explain the purpose of math and science to a student much easier than someone studying education. I think what we really need in our schools are people who have actually worked in industry and have been successful; those are the people that can really inspire our kids to learn.

By Jennifer

May 17, 2006 10:46 AM | Link to this

Amen, high school teacher!

I am a high school teacher as well, and I am sick to death seeing people in my county “earn” those nonsense degrees — specialist’s degrees from no-name universities where they go one Saturday a month and after a year have “earned” a degree. The only industry that recognizes specialist’s degrees is education, anyway, right?

But most of all, I have too much pride to get a degree from these places.

(For those of you who are wondering, these places are not the “diploma mills” we have seen in recent years, but neither are they particularly well-known universities or particularly rigorous programs. Ask a teacher. Even with the financial rewards of an advanced degree, ultimately, teachers go by the droves for the degrees because these programs are easy, and the financial reward is great. Many of the people who attend are teachers in their final few years of teaching who want to ensure that their annual pay for each of their last few years is as high as possible for retirement calculations.) The thing is, the last time I checked, earning a meaningful doctorate or other advanced degree wasn’t supposed to be easy. I think the end result such programs devalue the meaning of a master’s or doctorate degree that was truly earned, particularly in a non-education field. And the reward is no different for someone who has a master’s in physics, for example, compared to a master’s in education.

But to answer the question, no, I do not believe that a doctorate is necessary to teach K-12. As high school teacher said, it’s all theory and frou-frou. A more meaningful doctorate would be in one’s specialty. But if I were going to go back to school for a Ph.D. in engineering or mathematics (my undergrad major and my subject area) it would take far more work and time than I would be able to devote and still teach; and it wouldn’t serve me any purpose in my classroom because I would end up being too specialized at too high a level for what I teach. Maybe that’s not the case in all subject areas, but it renders the motivation for me to get a doctorate to a strictly financial one. If I needed the money, as many people do, I would find a way to attend a meaningful program that would let me take pride in my accomplishment. Maybe that’s just me.

By luvs2teach

May 17, 2006 10:48 AM | Link to this

Thought-provoking…

I find it ironic that on one blog, a poster was derisive of the quality of ed programs, and yet here, when some educators said it was a waste of their time, another poster called educators lazy.

Hmmm, lose-lose situation, no?

As for me, one day it would be nice to get my Doctorate - for me - not for the money, not for the Dr. but for me - I have a couple kids I need to get through college first.

As far as being lazy - well, I’m taking classes now - unfortunately they are not for a degree program, but they do help improve my teaching - I am learning a foreign language and working towards my ESOL endorsement.

My next goal after that is my gifted endorsement and another foreign language. It’s too bad that I can’t combine all of this into some degree, but I’m not in it for the money - I just like to learn stuff - it’s fun.

By Beccaann

May 17, 2006 10:56 AM | Link to this

Jim, just in case those remarks were directed towards me - I have a bachelor’s degree, no master’s, no specialists, no doctorate. I often worked in the summer and after school to make ends meet. I wanted to be a teacher from junior high on and I became one. Again, I knew pay was low when I started 33 years ago.

By G

May 17, 2006 10:57 AM | Link to this

Many of the best teachers I ever had only had Batchelor’s degrees. The ABSOLUTE best I ever had finished her Master’s, left high school teaching to get a Ph.D., and then taught 25 more years in college. Topnotch teaching quality is in the person, not the paper.

That said, a Doctorate is worth a lot in terms of salary. The problem lies in the inbred, self-recycling educationese that passes for content in so many education courses. I never returned to grad school after my Master’s because I was sick of the state of education coursework in the 1980’s; it was a matter of playing the game rather than actually learning anything of use.

And, of course, getting to put “Dr.” in front of one’s name is a ego matter for far too many people.

By G

May 17, 2006 10:57 AM | Link to this

Many of the best teachers I ever had only had Batchelor’s degrees. The ABSOLUTE best I ever had finished her Master’s, left high school teaching to get a Ph.D., and then taught 25 more years in college. Topnotch teaching quality is in the person, not the paper.

That said, a Doctorate is worth a lot in terms of salary. The problem lies in the inbred, self-recycling educationese that passes for content in so many education courses. I never returned to grad school after my Master’s because I was sick of the state of education coursework in the 1980’s; it was a matter of playing the game rather than actually learning anything of use.

And, of course, getting to put “Dr.” in front of one’s name is a ego matter for far too many people.

By EARNED doctor

May 17, 2006 10:57 AM | Link to this

To By a high school teacher…while I can understand you feel it is not necessary to receive a “bogus” doctorate in education, most doctorates that deserve respect are for specialized degrees. I recently received my doctorate in Biological Sciences with a minor in Ecology…as an undergraduate I received my B.S. in Biology and received secondary education certification. Although I am no longer teaching (used to teach HS and at a major Southeastern University), I have considered returning to the academic profession. I fully understand that experience and ability to teach are essential fundamentals that educators must possess, however it is knowledge (both appliced, theoretical, and statistical research) that can be utilized in the classroom setting to advance the potential of students in classrooms. Just my 2 cents. And, do you know how to use a computer since you posted your comment twice? I suppose I know how to use a computer properly because of my Ph.D. :).

By G

May 17, 2006 10:59 AM | Link to this

By the way:

B.S.—everyone knows what this is M.S.—More of the Same Ph.D.—Piled Higher and Deeper

:)

By Karen Armsby

May 17, 2006 11:00 AM | Link to this

I am not a teacher but here are my thoughts. I saw some of my kids best teachers get doctorates in education, which resulted in their departure from teaching in the classroom and going into administration. IMHO this was a big loss to the students.

If teachers are good, have mastered their material, have successful, high achieving students, then they should be rewarded in their career paths with increased salaries. They should not have to seek a higher degree just to earn more money.

If teachers want to increase their body of knowledge in their subject areas, then wouldn’t a Ph.D. in that subject area be better than an adminstrative or theoretical based Doctorate of Education?

I do agree with teachers pursuing any masters or doctorates that enable them to teach higher level classes, such as gifted, honors, or AP.

By Dekalb Educator

May 17, 2006 11:00 AM | Link to this

I came back to respond to the notion of being “lazy”.. the exact quote..You its really said that some of you feel that earning a doctorate is a waste of time. I imagine that you feel this way because you are to lazy to go back to school and get one. If Georgia schools were so great we wouldn’t be so deficient in academic areas. So yes, teachers should get doctoral degrees if the option is available to them!

This may be true for some but SURELY not all. I would have loved to go back to school to even get my Master’s. However, taking care of BOTH of my sick/older parents was a higher priority to me. My mother has been sick all of my life and is currently in a wheelchair (since 97) My father is dealing with cancer that has made a comeback.

Reality and work has kept me where I am needed most. I do not need a higher degree to tell me that I am sufficient in an area, etc. I take it upon myself to be the BEST that I can be. If there are other classes in which I can participate in to receive more knowledge and build on what I already have…CONSIDER ME THERE!

For some of us, its just not that serious. WE know who we are and what we are capable of doing.

By Dekalb Educator

May 17, 2006 11:02 AM | Link to this

I came back to respond to the notion of being “lazy”.. the exact quote..You its really said that some of you feel that earning a doctorate is a waste of time. I imagine that you feel this way because you are to lazy to go back to school and get one. If Georgia schools were so great we wouldn’t be so deficient in academic areas. So yes, teachers should get doctoral degrees if the option is available to them!

This may be true for some but SURELY not all. I would have loved to go back to school to even get my Master’s. However, taking care of BOTH of my sick/older parents was a higher priority to me. My mother has been sick all of my life and is currently in a wheelchair (since 97) My father is dealing with cancer that has made a comeback.

Reality and work has kept me where I am needed most. I do not need a higher degree to tell me that I am sufficient in an area, etc. I take it upon myself to be the BEST that I can be. If there are other classes in which I can participate in to receive more knowledge and build on what I already have…CONSIDER ME THERE!

For some of us, its just not that serious. WE know who we are and what we are capable of doing.

By Kenneth Noteboom

May 17, 2006 11:03 AM | Link to this

No they don’t need a doctorate. BUT, they do need to pass some basic math and reading exams. If they can’t they should be fired. Sadly, many teachers are not even close to proficient in basic skills. ———- That having been said, I can’t understand the animosity I’m reading about someone getting their PH’d. Learning should be a life long process. Take your jealousy somewhere else. PHD’s deserve respect for their accomplishment, even if they have limited used.

By MrLiberty

May 17, 2006 11:05 AM | Link to this

Parents with little more than a high school diploma currently homeschool kids to greater educational success than teachers with “official” education degrees. Does anyone honestly think that a PhD is going to improve upon that situation?

Teachers would be far better off, and would make a superior contribution to education if they would get an advanced degree in business instead and open up more private schools.

By Leia

May 17, 2006 11:07 AM | Link to this

G - yes, that’s what I want - my money to be Piled Higher and Deeper!

By G

May 17, 2006 11:13 AM | Link to this

For most of us, learning is a lifelong process. Teachers have to take courses to renew certificates, for one thing. Most of us take refresher courses regularly to update our knowledge. School systems regularly put teachers through staff development courses to familiarize us with new theories or new programs; of course, the real usefulness of many of these is open to debate.

Unlike many degree programs, these staff development and enrichment offerings are broad-based enough to let us concentrate on areas that are of actual use to us, not like the courses in theoretical educationese that passes for content in so many degree tracks. Even though I never went back for a Ph.D., I took over 50 enrichment and development courses in my 30 years of teaching. While the money from a Doctorate would have been nice, I got much more practical use from the enrichment classes.

By G

May 17, 2006 11:14 AM | Link to this

For most of us, learning is a lifelong process. Teachers have to take courses to renew certificates, for one thing. Most of us take refresher courses regularly to update our knowledge. School systems regularly put teachers through staff development courses to familiarize us with new theories or new programs; of course, the real usefulness of many of these is open to debate.

Unlike many degree programs, these staff development and enrichment offerings are broad-based enough to let us concentrate on areas that are of actual use to us, not like the courses in theoretical educationese that passes for content in so many degree tracks. Even though I never went back for a Ph.D., I took over 50 enrichment and development courses in my 30 years of teaching. While the money from a Doctorate would have been nice, I got much more practical use from the enrichment classes.

By Barry

May 17, 2006 11:19 AM | Link to this

“All of the Above” Let me say that all of the previous post answered the question as well as expected. My educational career is ongoing and I am satisfied with my progress as for as the goals that I have set. I have search for degree programs and learning enviroments that I wanted to be apart of and that would help me obtain a higher salary. There are numerous opportunities for educational growth. The pay increases are worth it and far better than nothing at all. Good luck for those who really didn’t get in to teaching for the money, but need the money and are willing and able to do whatever their particular school system will allow them to do to achieve a higher MONTHLY salary for a career they love.

By e.

May 17, 2006 11:19 AM | Link to this

I think it unfortunate that everyone is so harsh about advanced degrees. Just like many other fields the motivation for continuing on is different (and often complex) for every person. The passionate reasons against getting an advanced degree may stem from resentment that other educators are willing to go through the process regardless of the reason. It could be lazyness. It could be any number of things. I get that. But what I don’t get is why the anger?

Do advanced degrees make me a better teacher of eight year olds? No. You can only get that from experience and time. Will it harm my students because I have advanced degrees? No. Could it benefit them if I learn something new? Yes.

I am surprised by the cynicism dripping from the comments. Being a part of the educational system, I can say, it is a shame that teachers are not paid their worth. But the reality is that without an advanced degree my salary pales in comparison to the private sector and to government entities with grade scales and steps. Ironically, the money I will earn from advanced degrees will be eaten by student loan debt. So is the motivation really money for most teachers?

I also feel like if I am encouraging children that school is wonderful and that education will open doors then I should prove it. One way I can prove it is to take my field of study all the way to a logical conclusion. If I can reach to top so can they. I was a poor child from a blue-collar family and I worked hard. Some of you see advanced degrees as a spit in a bucket but for others education made dreams a reality.

Really it is all about how you look at things. Everyone’s reasons and paths are different…so be cynical, resent the rest of us, but just be good at what you do, however you do it.

By formerteacher

May 17, 2006 11:29 AM | Link to this

As long as the degree is “Doctor of Law Enforcement.” In today’s adversarial and unsupportive school climate of hostility toward authority, confusion, divergent attitudes of community, family and schools, overly high and unrealistic expectations, constantly-changing standards, and litigiousness, it’s not about more knowledge, it’s about classroom management and survival. Even in Hillary Clinton’s “It Takes a Village,” it was all about philosophical unity of an entire community. All you can really do as a teacher in today’s society is try to stick to the curriculum, try to make everyone happy, and prevent classroom chaos. When I was a teacher the main motivation for an advanced degree, usually Masters, was more money.

By formerteacher

May 17, 2006 11:29 AM | Link to this

As long as the degree is “Doctor of Law Enforcement.” In today’s adversarial and unsupportive school climate of hostility toward authority, confusion, divergent attitudes of community, family and schools, overly high and unrealistic expectations, constantly-changing standards, and litigiousness, it’s not about more knowledge, it’s about classroom management and survival. Even in Hillary Clinton’s “It Takes a Village,” it was all about philosophical unity of an entire community. All you can really do as a teacher in today’s society is try to stick to the curriculum, try to make everyone happy, and prevent classroom chaos. When I was a teacher the main motivation for an advanced degree, usually Masters, was more money.

By Veteran

May 17, 2006 11:29 AM | Link to this

Somewhere along the way today a new topic has cropped up: What degrees do teachers (in particular, high school teachers) earn in order to teach? My peers ALL have degrees in their chosen fields - not in education. We treasure our subject area expertise and only earned the required credits necessary to receive certification. So … that means math teachers in high school have degrees in math, English teachers have degrees in English, and science teachers have degrees in science (and speciality areas at that!). Hope that clears up some of the gross misinformation that is so rampant in the general public today. As for the question of teachers needing a doctorate? Does it really surprise you that some teachers want to continue their OWN education, however far that might take them? We, too, love learning. I hope, one day, to pursue my doctorate, and I will do it first for myself, and second, for the money.

By Middle School Teacher in DeKalb

May 17, 2006 11:29 AM | Link to this

I do not think teachers should be required to have a PhD. However, I am working on my doctorate degree. The amount of degrees that one has does not determine the effectiveness as a teacher. Being a teacher goes far beyond the amount of education one has. I do think that having a Bachelor’s is good enough as a minimum requirement. We are required to participate in various staff development courses, which are designed to keep us abreast of the changing trends within education. Personally, I am pursuing a doctorate degree because I plan to venture out of the classroom. I have encountered quite a few people who do get these degrees just for the pay or simply for the status. They put emphasis on calling them “Dr” but I do not want to be that way. Some won’t even answer if you fail to acknowledge them as having a doctorate degree. Who cares?! What matters to me is the success of the children. We do tend to get caught up in the hoopla of receiving all of these degrees and forget about our main reason for teaching, the children.

By Dekalb Educator

May 17, 2006 11:31 AM | Link to this

Not sure if I harbor resentment in the tone of my posts or not..but one thing I can honestly say…I dont care what the next person choose to do. There are those who want to be the HIGHEST paid, have the HIGHEST degree, etc. Others are happy working “behind the scenes” (for lack of better words)

I tend to find those that “I” work around as..blah..because of their doctorates. I dont knock a soul because they have DR in front of their names. Its just in “my” eyes…I see you as another educator..we are ALL supposed to be here for the children…No power trips needed.

I remember when our current adminstrators came in. The first faculty meeting, we met DR. “Jones”. (principal)…and asst principal comes up, says her name..and in the SAME BREATHE lets us know that she is working on her doctorate too. It was as if she just HAD to let us know..or as if she felt inferior to the principal because she isnt a DR yet. I dont know what it was, but many of us picked up on this.

I personally just hate to see it as a Power Trip..

By Dekalb Educator

May 17, 2006 11:33 AM | Link to this

Not sure if I harbor resentment in the tone of my posts or not..but one thing I can honestly say…I dont care what the next person choose to do. There are those who want to be the HIGHEST paid, have the HIGHEST degree, etc. Others are happy working “behind the scenes” (for lack of better words)

I tend to find those that “I” work around as..blah..because of their doctorates. I dont knock a soul because they have DR in front of their names. Its just in “my” eyes…I see you as another educator..we are ALL supposed to be here for the children…No power trips needed.

I remember when our current adminstrators came in. The first faculty meeting, we met DR. “Jones”. (principal)…and asst principal comes up, says her name..and in the SAME BREATHE lets us know that she is working on her doctorate too. It was as if she just HAD to let us know..or as if she felt inferior to the principal because she isnt a DR yet. I dont know what it was, but many of us picked up on this.

I personally just hate to see it as a Power Trip..

By GW

May 17, 2006 11:47 AM | Link to this

I’m a teacher that’s way “too lazy” to work for a doctorate of any kind, but more power to those that are. Does it help in the classroom? I’m too lazy to find out. Why begrudge anybody willing to do it, even just for the money. Playing the system beats stealing.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

May 17, 2006 11:47 AM | Link to this

It’s hard, in any occupation, to show just how OUTSTANDING you are at your job. Earning a higher degree is just one of the ways, most people gain higher salaries.

I don’t think it should be required to become a higher paid teacher. I’m sure higher pay comes with experience, in the educational field - without a PH.D.

I don’t think it’s wrong to seek a doctorate for higher pay. That’s what people do in the REAL WORLD, they go back to school.

There is a CUTOFF in every occupation, without an ADVANCE Degree or years of experience. The ceiling is only extended so high without it.

I only hope that those seeking Advance Degrees are “UPON COMPLETION”, put to GOOD USE in my school system.

Are teacher seeking Advance Degrees, asked to sign-on “to teach” for additional years upon completion? I’m talking about those who are getting tuition reimbursement from the school system. If you pay for it with your own money, you can go “where ever” you choose. But, if you are being reimbursed - I would expect a 2 to 5 year extended contract with the school system.

By high school teacher

May 17, 2006 11:50 AM | Link to this

To: EARNED teacher

Yes I do. I posted only once, some glitch in the system causes it to appear twice. My question to you is Do you know how to read? My comments were focusing solely on Education degrees, not real degrees. My undergrad is a BA in history, and I throughly agree with another poster that high school and middle school teachers should be required to major in a real discipline, not education.

By Mr. C

May 17, 2006 11:53 AM | Link to this

First, if the only thing necessary for students to learn were teachers who cared about them and who had a passion for their content area, then Georgia’s students would be performing much better, because the vast majority of teachers do care for their students and do have a passion for their subject. The state curriculum is supposed to be researched-based because research tells us what works and what doesn’t, what helps students learn and can motivate them. The higher you study in education the more you learn about the research that substantiates methods in the classroom.

That said, there are many bogus degrees out there from online degree mills. Is a two year PhD or EdD in leadership relevant in the classroom? Absolutely not. I am about to begin a PhD at a real university and it will be in my specialized content area. It will make me a better teacher, it will increase my pay, and it will give me opportunities later such as a county job in curriculum or as a professor if I run out of steam to deal with 130 sixteen-year-olds everyday when I’m 50.

Every teacher should seek lifelong education. How can anyone believe that learning more about your content area or studying your profession in greater depth is a negative?

By Tyger

May 17, 2006 11:53 AM | Link to this

As a teacher with a doctoral degree it is amazing to me the degree of petty jealousy displayed by supposedly educated people. A good teacher may or may not have a doctoral degree, there is no one indicator of teacher success, but to “hate” and “pick” on those that do is borderline isane and a very niggardly way to conduct an enterprise.

By high school teacher

May 17, 2006 11:53 AM | Link to this

To: EARNED teacher

Yes I do. I posted only once, some glitch in the system causes it to appear twice. My question to you is Do you know how to read? My comments were focusing solely on Education degrees, not real degrees. My undergrad is a BA in history, and I throughly agree with another poster that high school and middle school teachers should be required to major in a real discipline, not education.

By Teacher, Too

May 17, 2006 11:54 AM | Link to this

I have my master’s degree. I originally took the classes to earn the extra money. However, I learned so much while taking classes. I do think they have helped me become a much better teacher. Just the process of researching and writing has made me a better teacher, as it allows me to model through my own writing the sometimes painful experience of having your work critiqued.

I do find it offensive when I see other programs offer masters and specialists with a minimum of work. Those programs are simply for those teachers who only want the money without really wanting to further their educational experience.

I am thankful that I didn’t take the shortcut. I worked very hard for two years, and I am proud of my accomplishments.

I don’t have any desires to pursue any other advanced degrees. I don’t think those degrees will serve me in the classroom, and I don’t have any ambitions toward administration or teaching at the college level.

Just my few cents! Have a wonderful afternoon.

By Teacher in retirement

May 17, 2006 12:08 PM | Link to this

A doctorate in WHAT? Certainly not in more “theories of education.” KNOWLEDGE OF SUBJECT MATTER is the highest priority for a teacher to have…then a love and desire to teach young people. In every case I knew of while teaching, those who split their time seeking higher degrees (including administrators) with their time in actually “teaching” were the least successful. Often, they ended up with a broken home in which to raise their own children.

A happy home with a well-adjusted teacher creates the best condition for teachers and their students.

(A completely different issue, but even more influential in our children’s education is the DAILY involvement of parents in their own child’s school work…regardless of the child’s desire for them to stay “uninvolved.”) Hurray for snoopy, busy-body, caring MOMS and DADS!!!

By EW

May 17, 2006 12:08 PM | Link to this

I’m currently in pursuit of my doctoral degree, why, you ask? Well for me, the very first reason I decided was I have to set the standard for my two daughters, for them to understand that the minimal is just that - minimal, that I had high expectations for myself and they should have them for themselves. I wanted my 8 year old to see me work hard, and I want her to see my walk across the stage showing my accomplishment, I pray this helps her understand the value of education that I have for myself, in turn passing it to her. Secondly, I wanted my doctorate to get out of the classroom; I love my students however, at five years I’m starting to burn out. I’m thinking into moving into the collegiate level. I don’t have any lack of respect for teachers that don’t get higher degrees, we all have different scenarios… it’s just what works for you and your situation. No matter what school you attend, striving and succeeding pass the minimal requirements is an accomplishment.

By Billie

May 17, 2006 12:18 PM | Link to this

K-12 teachers don’t need certification, let alone a post-graduate degree. What they really need is real-world skills, whether they’re in early childhood ed or HS Advanced Placement. The skills can be topical, relating to specific course subjects, or related to team-building and other human dynamics. But the mindless pedagogical curricula should be tossed and the time better spent!

By hs sped

May 17, 2006 12:22 PM | Link to this

I am working on a doctorate degree. Yes, a real one. Not an internet, or one Saturday a month degree. And no, it’s not educational theory, or leadership. It’s a specialized program. Why? Because I would like to work at a university one day. I want to spend my later years (I’m over 40) doing research. I can hardly wait for the day!

By EW

May 17, 2006 12:28 PM | Link to this

Why are we so quick to devalue internet or Saturday degree programs?

It appears that some internet and Saturday degree programs are accredited by the same agencies that the “real universities” are accredited by.

By Teacher Teacher

May 17, 2006 12:31 PM | Link to this

Most of the administrators in DeKalb have doctorates from Nova, Phoenix, or Argosy — diploma mills that that teach nothing of worth. You pay your thousands of dolllars, and you receive your ticket to ride. In any event, it is obscene for anyone other than a medical practitioner to call him/herself Dr. I had a Shakespeare professor at UGA who earned his doctorate at Harvard. He refused to be called Dr.

And, to correct a false statement in a previous posting, a principal no longer has to be the highest paid person in the school, and in DeKalb, administrators do not receive more pay for being Dr. Whosit. They obtain the degrees for vanity and for upward mobility, certainly not for enchanced administrative ability.

By scott

May 17, 2006 12:45 PM | Link to this

If Gov. Perdue did not change the bonus benefits of being Nationally Certified then less teacher will have to pursue a doctorate in order to receive higher pay. Why is it okay for every other profession to pursue higher pay instead of teachers?

By scott

May 17, 2006 12:46 PM | Link to this

If Gov. Perdue did not change the bonus benefits of being Nationally Certified then less teacher will have to pursue a doctorate in order to receive higher pay. Why is it okay for every other profession to pursue higher pay instead of teachers?

By RW

May 17, 2006 01:17 PM | Link to this

A doctorate in the subject matter (not in education) is useful when teaching middle and high schools. I doctorate in education is useless unless you want to teach “how to teach” courses at the college level.

By E. Lewis

May 17, 2006 01:36 PM | Link to this

One of several reasons I left teaching was that while working for less than most of my peers and paying off debt for my undergratuate degree, I realized there was no way I would be able to afford to get a Master’s degree which was needed to maintain my qualifications as an educator.

As far as getting a doctorate goes, my first experience in high school with a Phd was one of the worst I had ever had with a teacher. He was smart and knew his subject matter, but that advanced degree did not make him a better educator.

By Ripdog

May 17, 2006 01:41 PM | Link to this

Of course it’s not necessary but it does indicate that a person is welling to perfect their craft to the highest extent possible. I think all of the negative comments about doctorate degrees in education are a reflection of the poster. Trust me, three or four thousand dollars these teachers may get in salary increases doesn’t nearly compensate for the sacrifice it takes to get a doctorate. I had an opportuntiy to do that and it wasn’t worth it. I have an MBA and a Master’s degree in my choosen field. It wasn’t required. I work with people who don’t have college degrees. I take pride in gaining professional credentials. I see why Georgia is at the bottom of the educational ladder based on many of these posts.

By Ripdog

May 17, 2006 01:42 PM | Link to this

Of course it’s not necessary but it does indicate that a person is welling to perfect their craft to the highest extent possible. I think all of the negative comments about doctorate degrees in education are a reflection of the poster. Trust me, three or four thousand dollars these teachers may get in salary increases doesn’t nearly compensate for the sacrifice it takes to get a doctorate. I had an opportuntiy to do that and it wasn’t worth it. I have an MBA and a Master’s degree in my choosen field. It wasn’t required. I work with people who don’t have college degrees. I take pride in gaining professional credentials. I see why Georgia is at the bottom of the educational ladder based on many of these posts.

By TheABCs

May 17, 2006 01:43 PM | Link to this

The PhD’s may be mostly about pay increases for those getting degree’s in administration or curriculum. However, for those with PhD’s in their teaching field for example Science, History, Math, etc…they certainly have a much more indepth grasp of their subject (not just the two years garnered in the traditional B.S or B.A degrees. I do not have my Ph D but a Master’s in my direct field and I certainly learned more in my subject during that advancement than all 4 of the undergrad years.

By HSTeach

May 17, 2006 01:47 PM | Link to this

I don’t really understand the argument here…a doctorate in education is one of the only possibilities for an advanced degree for most teachers since earning a PhD in a content area (math, science, etc) from a respectable Univ will require 1+ years of full time research. If the teacher does not already have this degree they are looking at a year w/o pay…and if you know what grad assistants get paid, then yes, it’s a year w/o pay.

Every person I know that has a PhD or EdD in education says it was a waste of time for what they learned, but NOT for they earned. When you are looking at spending 20+k for the degree but getting around 10k annual increase to salary, of course its worth it from that end. I also love to hear people say “I’m not here for the money” when you know good an well if you are presented with an opportunity to increase your salary in some cases 25% or more by attaining an “accessory” degree, you will go for it instantly. I will get my PhD just to jump through the hoops, and hopefully I will learn something meaningful that will help me teach my kids…but I’m not holding my breath.

By Laura

May 17, 2006 01:56 PM | Link to this

As a parent, I’m more impressed with real world experience being brought into the classroom. Not more of the same.

By goodpointHSTeacher

May 17, 2006 01:57 PM | Link to this

Very good point HSteacher. Why wouldn’t a person go to school to for a higher earning potential. I have advanced degrees and they earned me more money. Why can’t teachers do the same. And so what if a doctorate in education may not be as rigorous as a doctorate in let’s say, chemical engineering. Teachers, get the doctorate, have people call you doctor, and get that money.

By Jennifer

May 17, 2006 01:58 PM | Link to this

Ripdog, I can appreciate your perspective. What you and some other posters need to consider, however, is that many teachers (myself included) DO take countless hours of classes to better themselves as teachers. That these don’t count toward a particular advanced degree doesn’t mean that they don’t count or that we don’t strive to be better teachers. I think we are overlooking these types of classes in our comments in this blog.

For example, I teach high school mathematics (and I am gifted-certified, which required an additional year of graduate work). I am always taking classes to make me a better teacher and to increase my knowledge base. More often than not, I pay for these classes out of my own pocket, because I WANT to take them and don’t want to jump through the bureaucratic hoops to do so. I have taken advanced statistics classes; classes related to specific software that I wanted to learn that could help me teach and help my students learn; and many, many classes on a variety of issues that affect classroom teachers. All of these are incredibly valuable and have helped me to be a better teacher, and I believe they speak to how much I enjoy my job and want to always strive to do better. It’s exciting, every year, to think “oh, and this worked well, but NEXT year I can do …” and to always think of how we can improve. Lord help me if I ever stop feeling that way, it is time to leave education.

I have a master’s degree. In fact, it is in education, because my undergraduate degree is in engineering, which has been invaluable to me in terms of answering student questions about “where is this used??” However, it is not meaningful for me to go on to a specialist’s degree; the educational theory is often interesting but in my experiences, more often than not the course is just theoretical and taught by someone far, far removed from today’s classroom situation. At some point, arguing educational theories ceases to be a productive use of time and ceases to make one a better teacher. So I maintain that if I were to get a Ph.D., I would want to get it in math or engineering — and perhaps this is where those fields differ from others — which would make me a very, very specialized person in a field way, way above what I teach or could hope to teach in a high school setting. So, I continue to take the advanced classes or training classes that are relevant; but the Ph.D. — for myself and for countless others, I am sure — is not.

By Vandy

May 17, 2006 02:15 PM | Link to this

I don’t have a PhD. I do have degrees in computer science and mathematics. I can’t get over the sour grapes people have against others with PhD’s. If you were secure with yourself and your position in life, you wouldn’t be criticizing people who have Doctorate Degrees.

By Educatorx3

May 17, 2006 02:29 PM | Link to this

Is a PhD necessary? No. Is National Board Certification necessary? No. Have they both been rewarding experiences for me? Absolutely! I don’t regret one minute of either program. But keep in mind, I did these for me, not for anyone else. (the financial reward, while in the middle grades classroom was nice, too.)

My PhD is in curriculum and instruction - teaching and learning. My title is not important, but my knowledge is. I will continue to take classes in areas of interest so that I can continue to learn. If I expect my students to get excited about learning, shouldn’t I model that behavior?

While I agree that content knowledge is very important, you have to know that there are folks with lots of knowledge who cannot teach. Pedagogy is a necessary part of teacher preparation. Just because I know how to do advanced mathematics, does not mean I know how to teach others how to do it. Demonstrating my knowledge does not ensure the understanding of my students. I must know how to design assessment, analyze data, and focus instruction in order to teach my students. I need to know about teaching styles and differentiation. I have to understand school law and policy. Obviously, I must know about child development and psychology. I am expected to recognize and diagnos learning disabilities. There is more to the classroom than content knowledge. I beg to differ with those who believe that education degrees are wasted time. Are there folks who are natural teachers, of course. Can they improve their skills, of course.

Unfortuntely, some “hurry up and get it” programs that are available to educators have caused all advanced programs to come under scrutiny. The value of the degree, in terms of knowledge, can only be determined by the application in the classroom.

Bottom line? Why would anyone deny that learning more about one’s profession is an important and worthwhile endeavor?

By oldteacher

May 17, 2006 02:32 PM | Link to this

The question was as teachers do we want/need a doctorate. We don’t have to bash each other to answer this question. I never wanted any advance degrees. I just wanted to teach. What others want is up to them and I have no problems with that.

By Educatorx3

May 17, 2006 02:35 PM | Link to this

Ooops! I do know how to spell diagnose!

By HSTeach

May 17, 2006 02:40 PM | Link to this

The fact of the matter is that many classes offered for advanced education degrees don’t help teachers at all. I have a BSEd and it seems that of all the curriculum I’ve seen for MSEd programs they are just repeating what I’ve seen in the BS prog. And to top it off, it’s usually taught by profs who have been out of “education” for the past 10+ years and have this veiled, hazy view of how education “should” be and not how it really is. The fact of the matter is, many teachers who teach in high need areas (in low socioeconomic systems) need more combat training than actual content training.

I completely agree w/ Jennifer in that if/and when the opportunity arises for me to take classes, participate in summer programs that I believe will truly benefit my classroom experience, I jump at the opportunity. However, during the school year and often in the summer, we are inundated w/ dozens of meetings that very often fail to produce anything more than a 4+hour &*#$& session.

I would love to see some more practical education classes/courses come out of the major universities in this state. Everything is research driven (and that is very, very necessary) but it leaves many students high and dry when they are dropped in their first classroom expected to perform at the same level as every other teacher in the school, regardless of experience. When they have very little experience actually handling a classroom of kids (regardless of what level of degree they come w/). Classroom management is key to teaching in most of the low performing districts, and it sadly rates as a throw away portion of the practicum courses in many educational programs.

But hey, many people thrive solely on their content knowledge if they want to teach in districts where the kids love learning, the parents are active, and the main behavior problem is when that one student forgets to do their homework….but alas those schools are few and far between.

By concerned parent

May 17, 2006 02:42 PM | Link to this

The reason a doctorate (or masters or specialist)degree is problematic is that it entitles teachers to higher pay based on level of education and not on merit or performance. As a parent of two intelligent children, I am not impressed by advanced degrees when my kids can spell better than their teacher with a doctorate degree! A doctorate proves nothing except that schools were paid a lot of money so that the teachers can leverage a meaningless piece of paper for more salary, regardless of their teaching performance.

By Educatorx3

May 17, 2006 03:07 PM | Link to this

HS Teach: I understand what you are saying. But keep looking! There are some really good programs out there. One of my battles as a school administrator was taking “staff development” and making it true “professional learning.” No professional’s time should be wasted with more of the same old stuff.

As a college professor, I can tell you that on my faculty I am in the minority when it comes to real school experience. The problem is simple to explain. In leaving a school system administrative position to teach at the university level, I took a 50% pay cut. Guess that is my proof that I earned the degree for knowledge and not money, uh?

Anyway, you are right. The best graduate programs are those that go beyond the research and theory and teach the practical and authentic. Keep looking and don’t settle for a “you too can be a principal in 13 easy visits” program.

By davia

May 17, 2006 03:11 PM | Link to this

I think that advanced degrees in subject areas can be very helpful and beneficial. However,looking at my own personal experience and hearing stories from colleagues, it seems to me that many of the degree programs (undergrad or graduate), particularly those for early childhood education, are horribly lacking in academic responsibility. A few anecdotal stories which helped to form my opinion: - a major grade for a literacy course was for completing a quilt square that displayed our view of reading (warm and fuzzy, sure, but for a major grade?) - most of the education classes I took, undergrad and master level, gave no tests whatsoever. Only a few assigned papers that were 10+ page assignments. Grades were completely based on projects, which were time consuming, but by no means intellectually challenging. - most graduate courses were combined with undergrad courses. Graduate students had to do an extra paper or assignment for it to count as a master’s or doctor’s level. The books were the same. - A friend bragged to me about how she was able to complete her thesis for her master’s degree by combining papers previously written for other classes. She received high praises as feedback for her work from her academic committee. -My sister-in-law, a college senior, had a final in which the questions were set up “Jeopardy” style and the class completed the questions in groups. The teacher said it was because as teachers, they needed to be able to work together more than they needed to memorize/learn anything.

This sort of thing was observed in public and private colleges all over the state. There’s more, but my post is already long enough. I am so frustrated with the way in which education classes seem to have been “dumbed down to the lowest denominator.” These are schools of education!!! And they perpetuate a system which does not value intellect. This to me is one of the worst forms of hypocrisy, and it is why I will typically regard a degree in education (my own included!) with a little less respect than a degree in a different field.

By EW

May 17, 2006 03:15 PM | Link to this

Isn’t that usually true with the corporate world also? Yes, you get merit raises based on your reviews however, if I received a job offer with an advanced degree, I would get more money off the top than a peer that didn’t without proving my abilities first.

It’s amazing that teachers cannot be afforded the same considerations that other professions have.

We also must understand that there are doctorate recipients in all professions who are inadequate in their duties. Malpractice anyone?

By Joseph

May 17, 2006 03:52 PM | Link to this

This thread is almost too bulky and sprawling to respond to in full. So, I’ll address a few concerns I have after reading some of your comments.

First, I’ve seen a lot of comments about PhD programs in Education and PhDs in general that I think are just plain wrong and some are simply rude. For example, Mike writes, “I have met many, many people with doctorates and I have yet to be impressed by one of them. All a doctorate means is that they have wasted more time and money in college then most people.”

I think Mike’s comment in indicative of a larger sneering we’ve seen today at those with advanced degrees. That rhetoric has fit a couple of formats: Those with advanced degrees are snobs. If not snobs, they’re only doing it for the money. The required classes and program of study are not rigorous and, therefore, their degree is worthless, etc.

When I read Mike’s comment, and others like it, I wonder what alternative to continuing education they are proposing (if any). What are teachers supposed to do? Stagnate, I suppose. And if advanced education is superfluous, what about undergraduate degrees? Where does Mike’s advocacy of ignorance draw the line?

Techfellas comment is also worth mentioning because it masks the real point behind his comment: the notion that what teachers do isn’t real work anyway. Therefore, they should get “real” jobs. As if mending sick puppy dogs or selling insurance would prepare that person to teach American literature. The related argument, that teachers need more real world/ classroom experience, is also ignorant of the substantial observation, student teaching, and other hand-on opportunities available to upcoming educators within their academic programs.

Generally, though, I’m disturbed by the decidedly anti-intellectual bent of this debate. Those that seek out knowledge should be applauded. Maybe it is just childish jealousy or old-fashioned ignorance that keeps some from recognizing the efforts of others at self improvement.

By Joseph

May 17, 2006 03:53 PM | Link to this

This thread is almost too bulky and sprawling to respond to in full. So, I’ll address a few concerns I have after reading some of your comments.

First, I’ve seen a lot of comments about PhD programs in Education and PhDs in general that I think are just plain wrong and some are simply rude. For example, Mike writes, “I have met many, many people with doctorates and I have yet to be impressed by one of them. All a doctorate means is that they have wasted more time and money in college then most people.”

I think Mike’s comment in indicative of a larger sneering we’ve seen today at those with advanced degrees. That rhetoric has fit a couple of formats: Those with advanced degrees are snobs. If not snobs, they’re only doing it for the money. The required classes and program of study are not rigorous and, therefore, their degree is worthless, etc.

When I read Mike’s comment, and others like it, I wonder what alternative to continuing education they are proposing (if any). What are teachers supposed to do? Stagnate, I suppose. And if advanced education is superfluous, what about undergraduate degrees? Where does Mike’s advocacy of ignorance draw the line?

Techfellas comment is also worth mentioning because it masks the real point behind his comment: the notion that what teachers do isn’t real work anyway. Therefore, they should get “real” jobs. As if mending sick puppy dogs or selling insurance would prepare that person to teach American literature. The related argument, that teachers need more real world/ classroom experience, is also ignorant of the substantial observation, student teaching, and other hand-on opportunities available to upcoming educators within their academic programs.

Generally, though, I’m disturbed by the decidedly anti-intellectual bent of this debate. Those that seek out knowledge should be applauded. Maybe it is just childish jealousy or old-fashioned ignorance that keeps some from recognizing the efforts of others at self improvement.

By Chester LeGrone

May 17, 2006 03:58 PM | Link to this

As Vice President of the Georgia Association of Educators Student Program, I encourage all of the student members within the organization to pursue higher degrees. It’s necessary for educators to obtain higher degrees in order to receive higher salary. Beginning teachers with a bachelor’s degree in this state are paid $30,441.00 a year before taxes…that’s about $2,536.75 a month. In the real world many school systems do not reward teachers for high achieving students…its expected of them on a daily basis. How many of you could actually live comfortably with $2,536.75?

We as citizens place a large responsibility on our educators. Not only do they professionally perform their duties, but also we seek their assistance with many non-teaching tasks. I have had the honor of meeting many educators, and I can say without a shadow of a doubt that many of the nation’s best teachers are employed right here in Georgia school systems. Believe me when I tell you that nothing but time itself will cull the bad teachers from the good ones. The Arizona Education Association reports that nearly one-half of beginning teachers leave teaching within the first five years. Those educators that cant stomach the rules, regulations and mandates are the first ones out the door while the teachers that are there because their hearts are there are the ones that are left standing.

No one ever stopped to think about the possibilities one has when they have their doctorate degree. A doctorate degree opens the door not only to move vertically up the state’s pay scale,but to move horizontally into other fields as well. Many of the colleges and universities in this state will not even look at your job application without that doctorate degree. I understand many of your concerns about the quality of a doctorate degree in education, but why criticize our educators? It sounds to me like you need to be after the Board of Regents.

As a student in a teacher education program, I have more respect for teachers with their doctorate degrees because they put their money where their mouth is. Anyone that’s semi-conscious knows that learning is a life long process. Don’t criticize the few that have their doctorate degrees to prove it.

While I am entering the field of teaching because it’s my passion and calling, I will not stop until I have a terminal degree.

Chester Alex LeGrone Student Program Vice President Georgia Association of Educators

chesterlegrone@gmail.com

By NP

May 17, 2006 04:05 PM | Link to this

Lots of generalizations here! Have all the opinions you want but don’t be hasty too judge the quality and potential impact of KSU’s new program until we have had a chance to see the details. There are quality doctoral programs in education that have positive impacts on the teachers who complete them and the students they teach. Then there are those which are patterned on the “pay your fees..get your degrees” model. Teachers who choose the quick and easy path deserve what they get…and they do a diservice to educators everywhere and the students they teach.

Finally, the state should not give pay raises to teachers for degrees which have not been shown to make a difference in teaching and learning in Georgia’s classrooms.

By Teacher Teacher

May 17, 2006 04:21 PM | Link to this

Hey, “Chester Alex LeGrone Student Program Vice President Georgia Association of Educators,” you have got to be kidding me! It is necessary for an educator to obtain a doctorate so as to have enough money via a salary to raise his/her “future family”? What a crock! An educator should be making more at the onset of his/her career than, say, a garbageman or a MARTA driver. I know of women who work vending fragrance cards at local malls who earn an annual salary higher than beginning teachers. Many of these women do not even have a college education.

And if you are so interested in educators’ salaries, then why are you a part of an organization that allows administrators to be members? Why should an administrator earn more than a teacher? For instance, the principal of the school where I teach was a teacher for just two years prior to being pushed into administration because of his athletic connection to the superintendent. How can anyone possibly believe someone with two years of teaching experience as a PE instructor is qualified to make pronouncements about Advanced Placement, Gifted, or the CRCT?

Forget doctorates! Force administrators to take all the tests annually that the students in their schools must take. Let’s see what those scores are!

And, “Chester Alex LeGrone Student Program Vice President Georgia Association of Educators,” there is more to an educational existence than having some title affixed to your name from GAE, one of the most worthless, s*less organizations I know of. I would be mortified to think that my sense of worth was tied to a group that ignores its by-laws and dumps on teacher-members in preference of administrator-members. Take classes in your subject area, and join your subject area’s organization.

By Chester LeGrone

May 17, 2006 04:50 PM | Link to this

TeacherTeacher: I am part of an organization that lets administrators members beacuse they too are educators, you have said it yourself “with two years of teaching experience as a PE instructor is qualified to make pronouncements”. I am proud to be a part of GAE.

The simple fact that “Many of these women (that you know) do not even have a college education.” and make more than I will bothers me. So I am taking steps to do something about it, which is more than sitting behind the secrecy of a computer typing something.

By the way, my worth doesnt come from a “title” it comes from the fact that I am a 21 year old thats well on my way to making a difference by becoming an educator with a doctorate degree, and if there was a such a “subject area’s organization”, I would have joined that too. What mortifies me that enough of our teachers dont have a backbone to take a stand against the issues all of us face.

By Ernest

May 17, 2006 05:06 PM | Link to this

To the teachers who seek advanced degrees for additional compensation, I say more power to them. I recall reading recently that having a doctorate degree did not ‘help’ much with instruction for elementary students however it did bring value if that teacher taught in their ‘subject/content’ area to high school students.

Teacher Teacher, at 12:31 you said the principal did not have to be the highest paid staffer at a school anymore. Is this a recent change to your knowledge?

By Educatorx3

May 17, 2006 05:33 PM | Link to this

According to SACS standards, the principal of a school must make at least $1 more than the highest paid teacher.

By hs sped

May 17, 2006 06:12 PM | Link to this

Kirb-I do have a bachelor’s degree in what I teach and and also two post graduate degrees in education because I couldn’t get a job with my bachelor’s degree. Isn’t that funny? You may not know it, but all future special ed teachers will have to have a degree in what they teach IN ADDITION TO their special education classes. That’s right….a double major. Hardly seems worth it for the crap pay we get. Current teachers, who don’t have a degree in what they teach, are scrambling to prove that they are “highly qualified.” It’s damn ridiculous. Makes one want to look for employment elsewhere.

By Teacher Teacher

May 17, 2006 06:52 PM | Link to this

I love it when GAE officers become all trembly when confronted with the fact that GAE-affiliated groups are hardly teacher organizations. Any organization for teachers would never allow administrators to join. Never. If you have not noticed, teachers are always the ones held accountable, but administrators rarely are. I have seen it happen over and over for the twenty-plus years I have taught. Whenever a teacher becomes an administrator, he/she quickly forgets he/she was ever a teacher. Administrators routinely blame teachers for all that is wrong at a school. The teacher failed to stand duty. The teacher failed to teach the curriculum. The teacher failed to attend meetings. Blah Blah Blah. Whenever a teacher endeavors to stand up against administrative dictatorial actions, that teacher is labeled a troublemaker and endures retaliation. I could cite a number of instances from just this school year of how GAE-affiliated groups have opted to support worthless administrators over worthwhile teachers. One example: A teacher who taught the school system-mandated text The Crucible was told to pen a letter of apology to a parent for having taught witchcraft. The teacher refused and received a written reprimand threatening referral to the Professional Standards Commission for insubordination. Both the principal and the teacher are members of the GAE-affiliated group. The GAE-affiliated school rep sided with the principal as did the GAE-affiliated group’s school system leader. The teacher was told that his/her problem was a “local issue” that he/she should resolve on his/her own. That teacher dropped membership in the GAE-affiliated group yesterday.

I laugh that people think that educators holding a doctorate are of any more worth than educators not holding doctorates. The ruination of our educational system rests with the fact that a doctorate in education from Nova University is equated with one from Harvard. It’s all about money, baby. That’s why Mr. LeGrone is a willing participant in GAE while still being trained to be a teacher. GAE has its tendrils in academia so as to produce such zombies who will be willing cash cows for GAE’s monthly tithe. Don’t rage against the machine, Mr. LeGrone, but I will.

If America wants better education for its children, it should rid itself of the NEA first and then completely restructure the profession so that administrators are held even more accountable than teachers are.

As far as principals being paid the most in a school, that is no longer the case in DeKalb County. Where I teach, the Head Counselor earns much more than does Principal Whosit who only makes ten grand more than I, a mere teacher. A particular teacher with a doctorate from University of Phoenix also earns more than Principal Whosit. (I am unsure it this is the case in other systems.)

Click here for the truth.

By Karen Armsby

May 18, 2006 09:40 AM | Link to this

Teacher Teacher, I could not agree with you more. I am not a teacher but have seen through the years how school administrators generally don’t have a clue, how they interfere with the teacher’s authority and lesson plans and discipline, but then hold the teacher entirely accountable for any and all failings. When will you inmates (teachers) finally revolt and take back your classrooms, get rid of your wardens (administrators) and elect your own leaders?

By jim d

May 18, 2006 10:25 AM | Link to this

Karen,

Like we know that’ll happen in Gwinnett. Right? LOL

By CobbParent

May 18, 2006 10:26 AM | Link to this

My experience as a parent has been that the students of teachers working on advanced degrees — mostly for the money, let’s be honest — often pay a high price. Over the years the teachers have done their homework and projects during class when they should have been teaching, complained about the demands of their coursework and their lack of time, left campus immediately when the bell rang at 3:25 because they had class that night, changed lesson plans at the last minute because they said they were too busy with their coursework. As my child in all AP and honors classes recently said, “we kids couldn’t get away with coming to class unprepared, giving the excuse that we had other more important things to do last night. We’d all get F’s!” THE STUDENTS MUST COME FIRST! THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS SYSTEM IS NOT A JOBS PROGRAM FOR ADULTS.

By Dekalb Educator

May 18, 2006 10:35 AM | Link to this

I know of a “Dr” principal that spent spent all of one yr in a classroom..I am 33 and older than that person.

By Karen Armsby

May 18, 2006 10:36 AM | Link to this

jim d, All things are possible, IF the teachers organized themselves, supported some sensible school board members to replace the majority of the present board, and then instituted a completely new model of school adminsitration (from the inside- out, not top-down). Let the super’s office build and stock the schools with supplies, and let each group of a school’s teachers elect their own principal, manage their own hiring and firing, pick their own admins and finally restore each teacher’s authority to require student accountability, to enforce classroom discipline, and to do their professional job, teach.

By CobbParent

May 18, 2006 10:49 AM | Link to this

Karen Armsby, at first glance it sounds good but one important component is missing: teacher accountability. Teachers pick their own bosses and administrators, then there’s no central office oversight? Let’s admit that in teaching, just like in every other profession, there are lots of bad ones.

By jim d

May 18, 2006 10:50 AM | Link to this

Karen,

You have brought up an interesting topic that I’d love to see on this blog one day.

“How is it possible for teachers that will stick so tightly together when questioned by anyone that doesn’t hold a teaching certificate, regardless of the issue, can roll over so easily to a school administrations will that they know is wrong?”

I can’t help but wonder if teachers realize that were they to stick together that way, standing up for what they know is right, that they would have massive support from the community and that much of that support would come from the very same people they hold in such low esteem.

Ironic isn’t it?

By jim d

May 18, 2006 10:55 AM | Link to this

Karen,

Here’s the problem in Gwinnett.

Teachers are uniformed about the politics of education. I use to think it was just a lack of nerve but am now convinced that teachers don’t really know what’s going on in the central office.

Seem’s I’ve had the priviledge of informing more than a few teachers about issues in the past and had more than a few explain they would rather be in the dark. Retirement and all, if you know what I mean.

Teachers that are informed generally don’t stay—they find it easier to move on that to take a stand. They really don’t have problems finding employment in another system.

By Karen Armsby

May 18, 2006 11:02 AM | Link to this

Cobb Parent, Teacher accountability could also be managed within each school. Teachers know who is really good and who is not suited to teaching, who is slacking and who is struggling, but may just need some support and guidance. Subject matter teams and grade level teams are already in place in most schools and they usually control who is their lead teacher. Teachers can and do organize mentoring ladders for the new teachers, and they can self correct their members if given the authority, or if as I am suggesting they take back their authority. Central office oversight has taken teaching and behavior control away from teachers but blames them for all failings! Central office admins and supers are too far removed from the schools they oversee in Gwinnett’s and Cobb’s huge school systems. Adminstrations and their rule book focus are not focused on learning, despite the advertising. They are focused on PC correctness, on not getting sued, on public image, and on keeping their own high paid jobs, no matter how unrealted to teaching those jobs are.

By Karen Armsby

May 18, 2006 11:05 AM | Link to this

jim d, Sorry to disagree, but I think the teachers are very informed about teacher politics, but for many reasons they either put up with it, or as you say they move.

By Middle School Teacher in DeKalb

May 18, 2006 11:18 AM | Link to this

This is in response to Teacher Teacher’s post (12:31). I am a teacher in DeKalb and according to my principal and a few others at the county office principals are still the highest paid in their buildings. And on another note……..I am a product of the University of Phoenix. I received my master’s degree in Education specializing in Curriculum/Technology. This degree is relevant to my job because I am a business education teacher. I actually learned something. The program took me over 1.5 years to complete. I never took a break, nor did I have to repeat a course. I do agree that some of the online programs are bogus and you really don’t learn anything. But, I actually worked. We had projects. We completed action research projects. My course work at UoP wasn’t easy. I earned my degree and I take offense to your comment. Before you knock an online program you should try it. Online programs are very convenient for those of us who have families. I had two children and couldn’t afford to find babysitters while I went to class. It was more convenient for me to wait until they went to bed to do my studies.

By jim d

May 18, 2006 11:30 AM | Link to this

Karen,

Don’t be sorry. these boards are for a free expression of thoughts. I appreciate yours.

By Middle School Teacher in DeKalb

May 18, 2006 11:39 AM | Link to this

Karen Armsby, I am going to have to agree with jim d on this one. As a teacher I know that there are a lot of things we are not informed of, especially here in DeKalb or should I say my school. Even though we have county offices the principals are still given the ultimate control. A lot of times information is passed to them and they are expected to pass it along to the faculty and staff. In my school, we are always the last to know. Other colleagues at other schools seem to find the information out first. It seems like whenever something is going on at my school we are rushing to beat a deadline simply because the school administration failed to inform us in a timely manner.

As for taking the authority back…….At my school our principal micromanages through certain individual. Teachers aren’t given the opportunity to choose leaders. We aren’t given the opportunity to offer suggestions. If we are provided the opportunity then our suggestions are basically ignored. It seems like the same teachers are chosen over and over to complete various tasks. They are given the chance to advance while others are not. No matter how much we complain nothing is ever done about. People have written letters, sent e-mails, called the county office and we still have the same issues at our school. At times it seems like the county office is against the teachers. I say that because any little complaint that is made our principal is made aware of who made it. Then she makes that person’s life a living hell. Our turnover rate is ridiculous. I have been at this school for the last 5 years and there are only less than 10 original teachers left. We usually have a staff of 60 or more. I think that teachers don’t necessarily ignore the politics, they move because they’re given no other choice.

By Karen Armsby

May 18, 2006 12:32 PM | Link to this

Middle School Teacher in Dekalb, It appears to me that you need the reorganization that I outlined, and it appears you know are very informed about TEACHER POLITICS (what jim d said) but that you have no POWER over the politics! You and your fellow teachers should be able to choose your own team leaders, subject matter leaders, admins and principal! Empower yourselves, unite and change your system!

By OldSchool

May 18, 2006 01:04 PM | Link to this

For this old veteran, getting my Masters was primarily the path to get more pay. We had 5 performance reviews each year with an additional yearly summary review and, in spite of getting excellent reports, there were no pay raises or even an “attaboy.”

I’m working on Industry Certification for my Engineering Drawing program. It’s a ton of work and many, many long hours. If successful, I get not one thin dime…just satisfaction. My students will get a certificate proclaiming they have completed an industry certified program.

If I wanted to make the big bucks, I’d be a football coach. Now THERE’s a cushy position (at least down here). I wouldn’t have to teach and my season would be over in a few months.

Go ahead. Lambast me for the coaching remark. I just tend to put in almost as many hours year round as they do and I do it for way less money.

By jim d

May 18, 2006 01:17 PM | Link to this

“Empower yourselves, unite and change your system!”

Well said. But don’t hold your breath. Teachers say they have no choice when they really just don’t like the choices they do have. I can honestly say I’ve never seen a single group of people so intimidated by their employer, as are teachers.

By Middle School Teacher in DeKalb

May 18, 2006 01:31 PM | Link to this

jim d, do you think teachers are intimidated by their employers because of the significant impact the principal has on that teacher getting another job? One of my co-workers went on interview after interview until one principal finally admitted to her that the reason why no one hired her is because our principal gave her such a lousy recommendation. We have no idea what these people are putting on our recommendations when we’re trying to transfer within the county or even outside the county. In some instances the principals basically hold our fate. It doesn’t matter what good of a job you have done in the end. It boils down to whether or not the principal liked you as a person, at least it is in my school. I’ve seen it happen too many times.

By Norm

May 22, 2006 03:10 PM | Link to this

I’m a retired HS teacher with a PhD. As far as Doctoral Degrees are concerned, it’s like any other degree —— a signal of how far you have advanced in your field. The value of it is dependent on the person. We all know people with Bachelor degrees we wouldn’t hire to clean our yard and other people with no degrees who we would trust with our most valuable possessions. This attitude of some people that advanced degrees are worthless bothers me. This is the same kind of thinking that leads parents to think that the State of Georgia owes their child a HS diploma, regardless of how well they perform in school, because it’s worthless anyway. Maybe teachers should examine why they are teaching if they believe in that philosophy. Georgia’s educational system is not going to get out of the cellar until the people of Georgia place a greater value on education, teachers included.