Get Schooled

By Karen Armsby

May 16, 2006 10:57 AM | Link to this

Patti, I am wondering what is the percentage of high school graduates that now go to college compared to say 36 years ago when I went to college in 1970? I have a feeling that there is a much higher percentage of kids going to college today, and that many of those kids are not prepared, and not ready to learn and work hard in college classes. What does “intellectually handicapped” mean? Not smart? Not able to learn? Or not willing to do the work and reading required to be able to learn the material? Good reading skills are a must for success in college. And since reading is a lost art for many high school students, I will agree that the poor readers are intellectually handicapped when they go to college.

By Jeff

May 16, 2006 11:07 AM | Link to this

I dunno about al this, but here’s how I typicaly describe the level changes:

Middle - High: HS ball to Pro ball. Same rules, same basic game, MUCH higher level.

High - College: T-ball (baseball, 5 yr old level) - NFL. COMPLETELY different game and COMPLETELY different level.

From what I’ve observed at KSU and the HS I curently teach at, 90% of the College Prep level kids are in for a RUDE awakening as far as work ethics and study habits go.

By jim d

May 16, 2006 11:20 AM | Link to this

Karen,

I think we need to consider the percentages of students not graduating, those that go on to some sort of technical school as well as the number of students that end up either dropping or flunking out early in their college careers to fully grasp the situation. I really think if you looked at the percentages of students earning college degrees and compared that to what was taking place 36 years ago, you’d notice little difference.

By V for Vendetta

May 16, 2006 11:28 AM | Link to this

I don’t think reading has anything to do with it. It’s the failure of our schools to adequately prepare kids for college. You cant blame it all on something as abstract as reading. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: What passes for “college prep” now would be BELOW TECHNICAL when I was in school. Guess what folks, I was only in high school ten years ago! Pathetic. If we set the bar any lower, we’ll be tripping over it.

By Amber

May 16, 2006 11:33 AM | Link to this

I agree completely that many students entering college have very, very poor reading skills as well as poor work ethics.

Jeff posted: “…College Prep level kids are in for a RUDE awakening as far as work ethics and study habits go.”

But, I wonder…..don’t universities now have remediation programs in place so that they can accept incompetent students, get their money, ease them into some minimal level of “performance,” (NOT excellence) and keep them and their tuition payments for at least four years?

Is this a sure sign that colleges and universities, at least the less “presitigious” ones, may be going down the drain?

Rather than resist what the high schools are producing by not accepting them into their programs, universities are accepting them and remediating them…is this greed?

How educated will your next doctor, nurse, lawyer, or….um…teacher be?

By posterchild

May 16, 2006 11:46 AM | Link to this

Amber: Yes, universities have remedial courses, which floors me. You got into a 4-year university, with HOPE and other scholarships, no less, and you have to take remedial courses to get you to where you should have been prior to even getting there? And I agree with V’s statement regarding tripping over the bar!

By Karen Armsby

May 16, 2006 11:53 AM | Link to this

Jeff, I was asking Patti what percentage of high school graduates are GOING to college today compared to when I went. I agree with you that the same percentage are probably graduating from college as graduated back in my day. My point is that too many kids are going to college today that should go to technical or trade school instead. And that is not because they are not smart, it’s because they are not prepared and are not willing to put in the time reading and learning that college level work requires.

V, Sorry I totally disagree with you. Reading is not abstract! Reading is the Key to Learning. The more you read, the more you learn, and the faster you can read and learn more!

By jim d

May 16, 2006 12:10 PM | Link to this

Karen, that was me and the point I was making is that with all the improvement in education efforts and the vast sums of money being poured into education in the name of improving education, we’ve made little progress in 30+ years.

Some kids just aren’t college material no matter how much you learn em.

By V for Vendetta

May 16, 2006 12:10 PM | Link to this

Sorry Karen, I should have been more clear…

REading itself is not abstract, what I meant (and probably should have said) was generic. I felt that it was a rather broad thing to blame, “reading”. What aspect of reading, what about reading, what material, etc. I just didnt think saying “reading” really explained a whole lot. Sorry for the confusion (and poor word choice!)

By Karen Armsby

May 16, 2006 12:22 PM | Link to this

V, Thanks, and I agree with you that the bar has been lowered. But I think the bar is lower because the studnets cannot or will not do the reading required if the bar is raised.

By CobbParent

May 16, 2006 12:37 PM | Link to this

Maybe all the movies the kids are watching, and other instructional-time wasters going on, in their 90 minute block schedule classes (at our highly regarded AP certified school, anyway) have something to do with this problem. And I’m not blaming the teachers.

By Jim

May 16, 2006 12:45 PM | Link to this

Parents you are 100% to blame. When was the last time you bought your child a real book? Sure, you buy them cell phones and Ipods and tennis shoes that cost more than I once made in a week but how about real paper books? Are teachers requiring students to read the classics like we were required to in school? We’re procducing a bunch of techno-heads that only care about how many songs they can download or the graphics on a game. It’s not much better with the recent college grads I work with in corporate Amercia. Some of these kids are seemingly bright, they are gifted in technology but border on being socially retarded. I blame much of the lack of social skills on both parents cranking out 50+ hour work weeks (gotta keep up and pass the Jones’s)as the kids were growing up and they were left alone to play video games. I don’t like growing older or the changes I see in my body but I am glad to have lived in the time I did and not with the arrogant and self-centered attitude many of youth today seem to have, they seem to think the world owes them a grand way of life on a silver tray. Parents, take accountability, it’s you job, your responsibility.

By Cheryl

May 16, 2006 12:53 PM | Link to this

I agree that today’s students are less prepared for college than in years past. I believe that we as parents and possibly a society as a whole expect or require less of them. The prevailing attitude seems to be “..they’re just kids.” In kindergarten, 1st, 2nd and even 3rd, they are. By 4th they should be learning to put in some work. Don’ bombard them, but I think they should be required to do some reading and reporting. These skills are directly linked to work and study habits. It takes time management, commitment and self-discipline to complete book reports. If they haven’t adopted or acquired these skills by the time they enter High School, it’s a little late in my opinion.

I was shocked at 6 out of the 13 students in my remedial algebra class this past semester in college had graduated from high school within the last 3 years. I’m a little disturbed that they were admitted without being able to perform to the standard set and then are able to have these remedial courses paid for with financial aid. If these courses are provided for those recent graduates (say within the last 5 - 10 years) who don’t pass muster, they should not be able to pay for them with diminishing Hope funds.

By Cheryl

May 16, 2006 12:54 PM | Link to this

I agree that today’s students are less prepared for college than in years past. I believe that we as parents and possibly a society as a whole expect or require less of them. The prevailing attitude seems to be “..they’re just kids.” In kindergarten, 1st, 2nd and even 3rd, they are. By 4th they should be learning to put in some work. Don’ bombard them, but I think they should be required to do some reading and reporting. These skills are directly linked to work and study habits. It takes time management, commitment and self-discipline to complete book reports. If they haven’t adopted or acquired these skills by the time they enter High School, it’s a little late in my opinion.

I was shocked at 6 out of the 13 students in my remedial algebra class this past semester in college had graduated from high school within the last 3 years. I’m a little disturbed that they were admitted without being able to perform to the standard set and then are able to have these remedial courses paid for with financial aid. If these courses are provided for those recent graduates (say within the last 5 - 10 years) who don’t pass muster, they should not be able to pay for them with diminishing Hope funds.

By SET

May 16, 2006 12:59 PM | Link to this

I disagree.

This generation has brainpower in similar porportion to earlier years. If anything Affirmative Action is going away and competition is climbing. We have a lot more Asian students and we have lots of mixed race students. There is enough raw material to do another space race or whatever.

The book think is a good point but this generation can follow threads of research quickly in a manner only dreamed about by my generation. If I hear of a concept or even a new term I can turn to my computer and pull a huge number of references to it. Then go back to work. I do this occasionally during the day. A generation agao I have to go get an encyclopedia volume.

So although they haven’t held a lot of hardback books in their hands, this generation has experience in researching things big and small on curiosity. One may expect that their keyboarding if not their handwriting is better that my generation. They sure can work a cellphone for text messaging.

As far as their ability to defer gratification and to think and plan, that’s a product of their family. Good family, good skills.

So I’m somewhat optimistic about the progress of the ruling class of the next generation. The problem is, it’s the ruling class that will have everything.

By jim d

May 16, 2006 01:04 PM | Link to this

We could save a lot of time if we just went ahead and laid the blame off on parents for everything wrong with our schools. After all aren’t we the ones responsible for electing the people that hires the super. That hires administration that screens and hires teachers?

SEE FOLKS IT’S ALL OUR FAULT.

Now that that’s out of the way, Jim, let’s address your questions.

Parents you are 100% to blame. (See what’d I tell ya?)

When was the last time you bought your child a real book? (Last month, actually he bought it)

Real paper books? (Indeed, we visit real bookstores too)

Are teachers requiring students to read the classics like we were required to in school? (Yes if you mean like Mice and Men)

By Elane

May 16, 2006 01:10 PM | Link to this

One day, my son is going to start reading Kurt Vonnegut, and he’s going to be awfully embarrassed. I bought him “Slaughterhouse Five,” and then acquired a box set of KV for him. I absolutely know he’d adore the books. However, he kindly informed me that if I like Vonnegut, it can’t possibly be cool, therefore, he’ll wait until he sees one of his friends reading him before he tries it out. Yes, he really said this. He reads as required for his high school courses, only to the extent that he needs to know the material for tests. Part of it is his temperament — he’s too extroverted for solitary pursuits and too old to have me read to him (though I would if he asked). The other part is distractibility in general. I think even “bookish” kids have more trouble nowadays just settling down to a quiet read. Cell phones ringing, the “buddy list” door opening on its creaky hinges, and all the “gotta do, gotta go” stuff that consumes kids. School, with its hectic schedule and bureaucratic busywork, doesn’t help either. Remember when we used to just sit in the library for hours? Well, I used to… I don’t think they even have real study hall any more. They fill it with other things, who knows what. But unless Ms. Mallory comes along and gets Vonnegut banned, my son is in for a treat…someday…

By Veteran

May 16, 2006 01:13 PM | Link to this

So far today I have read over and over again how it is the teacher’s fault if a child cannot or does not succeed in college. In my thirty years, the biggest change I have seen is not in the attitudes of the students toward their own education, but in the attitudes of the parents toward their students’ educations. Parents now expect us to raise the bar for everyone BUT their child. Read? Not on parents’ time. Homework? Not if it interferes with soccer, baseball, cheerleading, whatever. Rigor? Tough tests? Not if it means the almighty GPA drops below 3.0 After all, little Joe might not be able to go to college for “free” on HOPE. Problem is that students go to college with a watered down 3.0 because parents refuse to put their students in rigorous classes, and then those same parents complain (loudly, stridently, and bitterly) when those same students lose HOPE after one year. Whose fault is it? Try talking a parent into putting a child into an AP or honors level class and see what happens, then we’ll talk the blame game. I agree with Karen: Reading is the key. And it cannot begin at 18 years old. Read often; read much; read early. It will pay off.

By TinaTeach

May 16, 2006 01:46 PM | Link to this

Reading is so important to be able to do well these days. I just graduated from college and I was amazed to learn how few of my friends were bookworms like me. The same goes for high schoolers today. I once asked my students (from student-teaching) how many books they thought were in their home. Only 2 or 4 out of 106 said more than 20 books were in their home! I was completely floored simpley because I own more than 500 books. I am so very happy that I was raised by parents who adore reading and I want to raise my children to be the same way. And while reading may not have aided me as much on the SAT as a prep class would have (I made a 1050) I came to college more capable of handling the reading load than many of my peers. In fact I was so prepared that it allowed me to handle the work load to complete two degrees (AB and BSEd) in only 4 years!

By TinaTeach

May 16, 2006 01:48 PM | Link to this

Reading is so important to be able to do well these days. I just graduated from college and I was amazed to learn how few of my friends were bookworms like me. The same goes for high schoolers today. I once asked my students (from student-teaching) how many books they thought were in their home. Only 2 or 4 out of 106 said more than 20 books were in their home! I was completely floored simpley because I own more than 500 books. I am so very happy that I was raised by parents who adore reading and I want to raise my children to be the same way. And while reading may not have aided me as much on the SAT as a prep class would have (I made a 1050) I came to college more capable of handling the reading load than many of my peers. In fact I was so prepared that it allowed me to handle the work load to complete two degrees (AB and BSEd) in only 4 years!

By Cheryl

May 16, 2006 02:00 PM | Link to this

SET, I agree the brainpower is there. As are the abilities to access and collect information. I agree that this and future generations have many information-gathering advantages. However, they seem to be less likely to do it for curiosity sake.

Having said that, I am the parent of 4 children. I take a lot of responsiblitity for what my children, what they read and what they do. I like the fact that they have access to computers for their informational purpose. We watch the news as a family. My children all have reading time (actual books) every evening. They also have chores and friends. In our home the priority list is: 1. homework, 2. chores, 3. room and things organized and 4. playtime. We put playtime on the list because it is important that they develop the social skills necessary to function in college as well as the intellectual skills. It’s last on the list because the others are more important in our opionion, and require them to manage their time.

Jim, I don’t put all the blame on parents, but we must all assume some. If we don’t require our children to meet certain levels of discipline, conduct or skills, how can we expect them to do this on their own?

Veteran, it isn’t the teachers fault, either. Although, I will say that teachers teach to the test a lot more than they did back in the day. I tell my children that it isn’t important what their grade is. The importance lies in knowledge. If they make knowing the material, the lesson, the priority, the grade will follow. I try to stress that they should learn something for the sake of knowing and if they do, they’ll do well regarless of the subjet. I am in no way the perfect parent or an authority on education, but my children are A/B students and are required to be so. Their priviliges are tied to their performance. On the other hand, I believe my children have the ability to be A/B students. If they struggle with a subject and put forth the effort to improve, the grade doesn’t really matter. I would rather they work to their ability than to the grade. If they are bringing home B’s and never study then they should be bringing home A’s., is my point.

I do think many parents expect the school system, the instructors, etc. to teach their kids things our parents considered their job. I also think to a great extent teachers’ hands are tied in the manner in which they can teach. I also agree, Veteran, that most parents seem to be blinded to their own child’s accountability. But, I also think we “baby” our children too long. Children have an amazing capacity for rising to the challenge IF the challenge is presented.

By Teacher, Too

May 16, 2006 02:08 PM | Link to this

I believe education has to be a joint venture between parent, student,and teacher. ALL three must be held accountable. I have raised the bar in my class, and I get students and parents complaining that I expect too much from them. This is an advanced class- of course I have high expectations for them.

My 8th grade class is reading one of the classics now- and they are struggling with it. Even though I read with them and give them chapter summaries after they have read the assigned chapters, some of them are still having difficulty with the language. It’s because they are not used to reading challenging material! Popular literature is great for pleasurable reading, but students do not self-select more challenging material to read. I think we need to go back to the classics- or students are going to have a difficult time reading the required texts in college and beyond.

Moreover, I think, in some ways, that technology is crippling our students. Text-messaging, e-mail, word processing- great tools, but students rely on them too often. Students think that if they use the spell check and grammar check that all their mistakes will be caught, and that is simply not true! And, students think that the essays they type on the computer are simply wonderful, yet they often lacks structure, digress, and are incoherent. Students need to create outlines to organize their ideas and to provide a basic structure for their writing. So, yes, I do believe that technology is in some ways detrimental to developing strong writing skills.

Finally, plagairism is rampant, in part, to technology. Students copy and paste from the internet and call it “research.” They think if they change one or two words, they have not plagairized. I have stopped allowing students to use the internetfor research unless they cite their sources and turn in their notecards.

Just a few thought- sorry that I digressed- I didn’t create an outline for my thoughts! :)

By Teacher, Too

May 16, 2006 02:13 PM | Link to this

I believe education has to be a joint venture between parent, student,and teacher. ALL three must be held accountable. I have raised the bar in my class, and I get students and parents complaining that I expect too much from them. This is an advanced class- of course I have high expectations for them.

My 8th grade class is reading one of the classics now- and they are struggling with it. Even though I read with them and give them chapter summaries after they have read the assigned chapters, some of them are still having difficulty with the language. It’s because they are not used to reading challenging material! Popular literature is great for pleasurable reading, but students do not self-select more challenging material to read. I think we need to go back to the classics- or students are going to have a difficult time reading the required texts in college and beyond.

Moreover, I think, in some ways, that technology is crippling our students. Text-messaging, e-mail, word processing- great tools, but students rely on them too often. Students think that if they use the spell check and grammar check that all their mistakes will be caught, and that is simply not true! And, students think that the essays they type on the computer are simply wonderful, yet they often lacks structure, digress, and are incoherent. Students need to create outlines to organize their ideas and to provide a basic structure for their writing. So, yes, I do believe that technology is in some ways detrimental to developing strong writing skills.

Finally, plagairism is rampant, in part, to technology. Students copy and paste from the internet and call it “research.” They think if they change one or two words, they have not plagairized. I have stopped allowing students to use the internetfor research unless they cite their sources and turn in their notecards.

Just a few thought- sorry that I digressed- I didn’t create an outline for my thoughts! :)

By teach overseas

May 16, 2006 02:18 PM | Link to this

There is a big difference between reading to decode the words and READING to determine subject, tone, nuance, fore shadowing, symbolism and the like. Yeah, your kid might be reading, but if he’s got the music blasting, the ipod stuck in his ear, one eyeball on the computer screen, IMing his friends- he is not READING.

Parents today expect less. Grades must not slip below that B average. No matter if the kid can read or not. I was teaching 9th grade goegraphy a good high school a few years ago. I gave a map quiz- the first of the year. The mother of one student who failed came in screaming that I was personally trying to keep her kid out of college. College? This kid couldn’t find Georgia on a map and he was going to college? On a scholarship?

By teach overseas

May 16, 2006 02:19 PM | Link to this

There is a big difference between reading to decode the words and READING to determine subject, tone, nuance, fore shadowing, symbolism and the like. Yeah, your kid might be reading, but if he’s got the music blasting, the ipod stuck in his ear, one eyeball on the computer screen, IMing his friends- he is not READING.

Parents today expect less. Grades must not slip below that B average. No matter if the kid can read or not. I was teaching 9th grade goegraphy a good high school a few years ago. I gave a map quiz- the first of the year. The mother of one student who failed came in screaming that I was personally trying to keep her kid out of college. College? This kid couldn’t find Georgia on a map and he was going to college? On a scholarship?

By Teacher, Too

May 16, 2006 02:21 PM | Link to this

I believe education has to be a joint venture between parent, student,and teacher. ALL three must be held accountable. I have raised the bar in my class, and I get students and parents complaining that I expect too much from them. This is an advanced class- of course I have high expectations for them.

My 8th grade class is reading one of the classics now- and they are struggling with it. Even though I read with them and give them chapter summaries after they have read the assigned chapters, some of them are still having difficulty with the language. It’s because they are not used to reading challenging material! Popular literature is great for pleasurable reading, but students do not self-select more challenging material to read. I think we need to go back to the classics- or students are going to have a difficult time reading the required texts in college and beyond.

Moreover, I think, in some ways, that technology is crippling our students. Text-messaging, e-mail, word processing- great tools, but students rely on them too often. Students think that if they use the spell check and grammar check that all their mistakes will be caught, and that is simply not true! And, students think that the essays they type on the computer are simply wonderful, yet they often lacks structure, digress, and are incoherent. Students need to create outlines to organize their ideas and to provide a basic structure for their writing. So, yes, I do believe that technology is in some ways detrimental to developing strong writing skills.

Finally, plagairism is rampant, in part, to technology. Students copy and paste from the internet and call it “research.” They think if they change one or two words, they have not plagairized. I have stopped allowing students to use the internetfor research unless they cite their sources and turn in their notecards.

Just a few thought- sorry that I digressed- I didn’t create an outline for my thoughts! :)

By Teacher, Too

May 16, 2006 02:30 PM | Link to this

I apologize forthe multiple posts- I think my computer has gone wacky! I promise to be more diligent about this in the future!

By Lynn

May 16, 2006 02:42 PM | Link to this

Teacher, too: What classic are your kids struggling with in the 8th grade? I’m curious because I just found out I will be teaching a 6th grade class next year, and, like you, I want them to read for fun, but also to get used to the classics. Just curious.

By jim d

May 16, 2006 03:00 PM | Link to this

Teach too,

I think you may have fallen into the same trap that parents often do. Making gereralized statements. “students do not self-select more challenging material to read”

Some may not but others do.I’ve seen more than a few 6-7th graders reading materials I didn’t read until I was in high school, and they fully comprehend and appreciate the materials at this age.

By Teacher, Too

May 16, 2006 03:07 PM | Link to this

I have taught Hard Times, Wuthering Heights, Julius Caesar, and Oliver Twist. I have also taught more modern classics such as Jackaroo and The Scarlet Pimpernel.

Julius Caesar was the most difficult to teach in 8th grade- but I give those students tremendous credit that they worked through it. (I had inherited the books from the previous teacher.) Oliver Twist in the unabridged form was also challenging, but again, the students muddled through. I haven’t taught either book in at least eight years, though.

By Teacher, Too

May 16, 2006 03:15 PM | Link to this

jim d, You are absolutely right. I am just reflecting on what I have generally seen in my classroom based on my 17 years of teaching. I know that I have a few students who read more challenging material, and I do encourage my students to challenge themselves by reading out of their comfort zone (i.e. reading biography,science fiction…) But, I still see many of my “advanced” students reading R.L. Stine and Lemony Snicket books on a regular basis (in 8th grade).

By jim d

May 16, 2006 03:16 PM | Link to this

Teach too,

Don’t know if it’s any consolation, but I know of at least one high school sophomore class in Gwinnett that did Julius Caesar this semester.

Classics are still being taught!

By AmberR

May 16, 2006 03:23 PM | Link to this

I would first like to say that the title of this is all wrong. I am a college junior and I am NOT intellectually handicapped. In fact when I come home to visit, I am amazed at the amount of adults in the “real world” that are absolutely ignorant and oblivious to life. I do feel, however, that schools are partly to blame for those college students that are behind. I hate to admit it but my senior year was a cake walk. My younger brother, a senior at the same school that I attended, thinks this is unfair because this year our high school has added all kinds of test and a senior project worth 15% of all his classes. I have seen and know some college students that take remedial classes, and when they can say in all honesty that they didnt write a paper the last two years of high school we have a problem. As for reading, different generations prefer different things. As for the first comment about reading, thats got to be on the parents. My sister often scolds me because she thinks that I teach my nephew things that are to mature for him.He is seven and he can tell you about the Immigration laws, and the War in Iraq. I invest in books and I make sure that I teach him that its cool to be smart AND play sports, so he reads all the time and he even got his teacher to start buying books with her own money for the class room. Its all about what we instill in children. You cant tell a 20 year old who hasnt read a book in close to 5 years to read instead of going out. Its crazy.

By jim d

May 16, 2006 03:32 PM | Link to this

LOL Teach too.

Never had that problem at home, kid picks up volumes of the encyclopedia and starts reading when he runs out of new materials. Generally take that as a sign we need to hit the bookstores.

By luvs2teach

May 16, 2006 04:19 PM | Link to this

Teacher Too - your 2:21 post was DEAD ON! (worth reading the multiple times it posted, LOL).

Kids today have many, many more choices in entertainment than I did in the 70s. I had books and magazines (and like your son, jim d, I, too, read the encyclopedia for fun - still do, actually) as well as a small amount of TV (3 networks, PBS, and a couple independent stations). No video games, no computers, no internet, no cable…

I also didn’t have a huge marketing effort of entertainment specifically aimed for me - no Nick, Disney, Harry Potter, Goosebumps etc. (although I did have Encyclopedia Brown - anyone remember that? And Nancy Drew - books that made you think…)

Part of the problem is the language in what is considered on-level for children’s literature - read Twenty-Thousand Leagues Under the Sea (a “children’s” book”) and you will be amazed at the level of sophistication in the word choice and writing. Try Treasure Island or Caddie Woodlawn - even the Little House books (I devoured those as a child) use more complicated vocabulary and syntactic structure than say, The Babysitter Club series - books aimed at the same age group.

Our kids are having trouble in college because we (all of us are to blame - educators, parents, textbook publishers, school boards, and consultants) have fed them pablum - we’ve watered down the texts and we’ve watered down the curriculum.

We’ve lowered expectations all in the name of self-esteem.

We’ve fed them a line of bologna about how they and their particular style of learning should be catered to and we’ve totally misled them into thinking that education should be entertainment - “edutainment” if you will.

They think they learn by osmosis - no one has ever shown them that they need to put forth an effort - sitting in a classroom doesn’t magically put the info into to their heads where it can be recalled easily.

We all want our kids to be gifted. We all want our kids on the honor roll and to get the HOPE. We all want our classrooms to be fun and engaging. And we all want our kids to enjoy reading - even if it’s crap.

We are all to blame.

By luvs2teach

May 16, 2006 04:21 PM | Link to this

Teacher Too - your 2:21 post was DEAD ON! (worth reading the multiple times it posted, LOL).

Kids today have many, many more choices in entertainment than I did in the 70s. I had books and magazines (and like your son, jim d, I, too, read the encyclopedia for fun - still do, actually) as well as a small amount of TV (3 networks, PBS, and a couple independent stations). No video games, no computers, no internet, no cable…

I also didn’t have a huge marketing effort of entertainment specifically aimed for me - no Nick, Disney, Harry Potter, Goosebumps etc. (although I did have Encyclopedia Brown - anyone remember that? And Nancy Drew - books that made you think…)

Part of the problem is the language in what is considered on-level for children’s literature - read Twenty-Thousand Leagues Under the Sea (a “children’s” book”) and you will be amazed at the level of sophistication in the word choice and writing. Try Treasure Island or Caddie Woodlawn - even the Little House books (I devoured those as a child) use more complicated vocabulary and syntactic structure than say, The Babysitter Club series - books aimed at the same age group.

Our kids are having trouble in college because we (all of us are to blame - educators, parents, textbook publishers, school boards, and consultants) have fed them pablum - we’ve watered down the texts and we’ve watered down the curriculum.

We’ve lowered expectations all in the name of self-esteem.

We’ve fed them a line of bologna about how they and their particular style of learning should be catered to and we’ve totally misled them into thinking that education should be entertainment - “edutainment” if you will.

They think they learn by osmosis - no one has ever shown them that they need to put forth an effort - sitting in a classroom doesn’t magically put the info into to their heads where it can be recalled easily.

We all want our kids to be gifted. We all want our kids on the honor roll and to get the HOPE. We all want our classrooms to be fun and engaging. And we all want our kids to enjoy reading - even if it’s crap.

We are all to blame.

By luvs2teach

May 16, 2006 04:29 PM | Link to this

I, too, apologize about the multiple posts - tech issues, I guess!

By jim d

May 16, 2006 04:32 PM | Link to this

L2

I’m convinced I share in the blame. But for none other than my child.

And he ain’t half bad.

By luvs2teach

May 16, 2006 04:43 PM | Link to this

jim d - LOL, I’m sure he’s fine - my personal kids, too, will be OK (fingers crossed, of course).

I just get exasperated when I read this blog day after day; and I read the news; and I talk to my friends who are parents and my friends who are teachers, AND my friends who are both parents AND teachers and nothing seems to get better…

As a nation, we can’t decide what we want - we want a rigorous curriculum - but not so hard that my kid can’t get As. We want smaller classrooms - but we don’t want trailers or to pay more taxes. We want people who see our child for maybe fifty minutes a day to have the same or greater impact than parents who should see them more than that. We want them to speak and teach in accessible language, but then cry foul when someone else demands more…

I do my best to do my part in my little corner of the world…

By jim d

May 16, 2006 04:55 PM | Link to this

Funny thing about me. I want the same for every kid. I want them all to be in gifted classes, earning “A’s” and “B’s”. I want them to have the type of future my kid has. I want them to truly become educated. These kids are our future, and god forbid we fail them now. Paybacks are hell.

By Maxine

May 16, 2006 05:00 PM | Link to this

Face it. A degree in education is the cheapest degree on any college campus in terms of substance and high standards. Teachers learn technique and theory but not substance. Not only that, to impose high standards on students and assess failing grades is too cruel to them. Teacher protect a student’s self esteem to the degree that they have to meet any standards. Ft.ValleyState has been too lax for too many years.

Once students get to college, their professors are there to get grants and publish, not teach students. At a large university, the student is the very last item on the list of priorities.

Students in other countries put out students to shame—not because they are not intelligent, but because their high school teachers are uneducated and their college professors are uninterested in teahing.

By luvs2teach

May 16, 2006 05:08 PM | Link to this

Jim d - you didn’t tell me that you lived in Lake Wobegon, where every child is above average!

By OldSchool

May 16, 2006 05:34 PM | Link to this

For years I’ve had my students reading for the first 15 minutes of every block everyday. Many read my Reader’s Digest or Consumer Reports but others also read English or History assignments as well. No one complained…until this year. One sophomore (wise fool…look it up) was very vocal in his displeasure and would disrupt the entire class. I finally gave them the option of reading or going directly to work on their drafting assignments. Many still chose to read for the 15 minutes and almost all ignore the class dissident.

My own daughters learned to read in the car on long trips which made for many peaceful miles punctuated by lively “book reports.” Both were very successful in college and continue that success in the working world. They still prefer reading to television as do their father and I. I feel very sorry for television addicted families. They are missing a world of wonder and information.

By JW

May 16, 2006 06:52 PM | Link to this

Wow, Maxine! Sounds like you have had your share of bad experiences with teachers. Otherwise, why would you be so disrespectful and resentful? Funny how teachers just seem to be so ignorant no matter where you go. Right, Maxine?

So let me make sure I understand - high school teachers are lazy and stupid; college professors are arrogant and distracted.

Funny how you find no responsibility on the part of some students or their parents. Of course, that wouldn’t fit your agenda, would it?

By JW

May 16, 2006 06:53 PM | Link to this

Wow, Maxine! Sounds like you have had your share of bad experiences with teachers. Otherwise, why would you be so disrespectful and resentful? Funny how teachers just seem to be so ignorant no matter where you go. Right, Maxine?

So let me make sure I understand - high school teachers are lazy and stupid; college professors are arrogant and distracted.

Funny how you find no responsibility on the part of some students or their parents. Of course, that wouldn’t fit your agenda, would it?

By SET

May 16, 2006 07:07 PM | Link to this

Maxine is entitled to her opinion and I’m glad to hear her express it.

By JW

May 16, 2006 07:36 PM | Link to this

SET - who said Maxine could not express her opinions (which are actually generalizations)? After all we are in the land of free speech!

However, wouldn’t you agree that with the right of free speech comes the responsibility to support such statements? Otherwise, you need to be ready to “face the music” from those you might offend.

By SET

May 16, 2006 07:53 PM | Link to this

JW:

Ask Maxine to support the statements referred to.

Is this blog where you make people who “offend” you “face the music”?

By Karen Armsby

May 16, 2006 08:03 PM | Link to this

JW, Please define what you meant by “face the music.”

To everyone else supporting READING today through their comments, thank you! Reading is the key to success in school.

By JW

May 16, 2006 08:30 PM | Link to this

Face the music = accept the unpleasant consequences of an action. In this case, generalizations made about an entire group of professionals causing members of the profession to criticize or point out the error of the generalization.

Didn’t mean to start World War III. Just do not like such sweeping statements. Maybe my reaction wasn’t the most mature response itself. But you will not see me making such generalizations about parents, students, teachers, administrators, etc. You will notice even in my first response I included the word “some” when referring to students and parents sharing responsibility.

By teach overseas

May 16, 2006 08:36 PM | Link to this

Maxine-

You don’t know what you are talking about. The vast majority of my peers (as well as myself) have degrees in the subject they teach and then have a Masters in Education and then continue with education throughout their careers. There are a number with PhD’s as well. Most of us are HIGHLY educated. Yes, there are some bad apples in the group- but tell me one profession that doesn’t?

By Karen Armsby

May 16, 2006 09:00 PM | Link to this

JW, Thanks, and might I add that people should not be offended by anything said in a blog, except a personal attack, like namecalling and derisive commets. The truth is that our comments are drawn from our personal and sometimes professional experience. When I express my thoughts, it’s from my experience, period. I don’t think I have to submit a resume or justification for my ideas, sometimes maybe a little background. But the many different ideas that come out make us all think a little harder about our own ideas. IMHO none of us should have to face any music in this forum of free expression.

By Laf

May 17, 2006 09:55 AM | Link to this

is a lot easier to travel than many of the other degrees such as business, law, engineering, the sciences and math. An there are several other colleges in the state that is in the same league that the college she mentioned. There is a great variation in the quality of colleges in this country. This makes it necessary for teachers to have too pass a test before they are issued a teaching certificate. We can’t depend on all colleges to screen out the weaker students. These students are the very ones we need to keep out of the classroom. Let them get their degree in business administration or in an area that is not as important as the field of education.

By luvs2teach

May 17, 2006 10:31 AM | Link to this

Wow, Maxine - thank goodness I got my degree in science instead of education…maybe some of the intelligence of the pre-med majors I was in class with rubbed off, eh?

By luvs2teach

May 17, 2006 11:00 AM | Link to this

LAf - I couldn’t tell by your post if you were suggesting that teachers need to pass a test, or if you already knew that that they did.

For those of you who didn’t know - teachers DO need to pass a test (and like the CRCT, it is possible to get your degree, yet still fail the test). The test is called the Praxis II, and it is grade level, and/or subject area specific. For example, I took (and passed, TYVM) General Science (a two part test, MC and essay)for 7 - 12 certification, Middle Grades Science (1 part, MC and Essay) for 4 - 8 certification, as well as Health (MC only) for P - 12 certification.

There is also the Praxis I, which is basic math and English, but can be exempted with high enough SAT or ACT scores.

Because of the change to performance standards, some subject areas may be changing to another test.

Information on all of the required teacher testing can be found on the Georgia PSC site

For fun, go to the testing site and try some sample questions!

By Laf

May 17, 2006 01:56 PM | Link to this

take these test. These test have really improved the instructional program in many colleges. No college wants to have a large percentage of its students failing the Praxis Test. Since you past the test we know that you know the subject matter in the areas that you took the test in. Keep up the good work. You are in a great profession. Imagine what the world would be like if there were no teachers!

By JW

May 17, 2006 04:08 PM | Link to this

Karen,

I do understand your point. However, trust me when I say that little ol’ me is not trying to take away Maxine’s right to free speech (as suggested). I agree that we should all listen to various ideas and opinions. My problem was with Maxine’s generalizations that lump all teachers (high school and college) together into one box labeled lousy. What exactly were the ideas in Maxine’s comments that I was supposed to “think a little harder about?” These kinds of comments require a response (mine was indeed too sarcastic). I know that many posters on this blog would do the same if I made generalizations like “Parents have ruined public schools” or “Students lack any responsibility or work ethic” or “California residents are unpatriotic radicals.” I would need to be ready to “face the music” - in this case, an angry response from those about whom I had generalized.

LAF, Thank you for not making broad statements about all colleges or teachers. As far as the rigor as compared to engineering, law, business, etc…I will just be happy with the knowledge that those professionals are where they are thanks in part to the hard work of a teacher.

By gary furman

May 17, 2006 04:51 PM | Link to this

I have been a college and high school teacher for over 20 years. In general, college students are less well-prepared, and inability to read like the “pre-technical” generation IS the major cause. Rigorous college courses demand the ability to comprehend and analyze a lot of heavy-duty reading, whether it be Shakespeare or physics. This analysis must then be put into writing or application, another major weakness. Much of this weakness has been created by the “3-second sound bite” culture. The rest of the fault is with parents, not schools. Many K-12 schools have eased back on academic demands because parent complaints have forced them to. (“My kid won’t graduate because you are too tough”)The real problem is that parents don’t instill the proper work ethic. Kids are given things instead of EARNING them. Typically, a 1973 math assignment was “read the section and do problems x-Z.” We would go home, read it until we GOT it, and do the assignment. Now, nearly every child will return the next day and say “I didn’t get it”, as though that is perfectly acceptable in lieu of completing an assignment!! If the teacher dares give a “zero”, heaven help them from the parent barrage! True, every public high school has an academic elite of well-parented, internally motivated kids. They respect adults, take pride in their work, and want to “be the best”. That group, however, seems to have shrunk to 10 or 15% from 20 or 30% of the student body. Of that group, maybe a third have the psychological toughness and maturity to succeed as freshmen at major universities. Most community colleges and many 4-year colleges have to offer “remedial” courses because the students have been improperly enculturated. More and more technical, science, and math degrees are awarded to foreign students, because they have a tremendous work ethic. This situation is tragic in that now Americans are being outcompeted for jobs at both the lower and upper levels of educational sophistication.