By Karen Armsby

May 5, 2006 08:12 AM | Link to this

Ms. Jones said in her essay, “I mostly blame the parents for not sending their children to school ready to learn.” In Get Schooled we have discussed this issue countless times; the importance of good parenting in the education of our children. Ms. Jones would be wise to move to a neighborhood where other like-minded parents are getting their children ready to learn at school. And it doesn’t sound like the voucher system will do the job in the APS with the waiting lists at the good schools.

By Kym

May 5, 2006 09:39 AM | Link to this

I could not agree with Ms. Jones more and I am having the same problem with my son. The public schools on the southside of Fulton County are inadequate compared to the northside. A sad but true fact. An it is the parents and the communities fault. There is a serious lack of support for the school and the teachers only seem to teach the test. No one is really taking the time to teach the concepts. Accept me. I review homework and explain the concepts, if I dont know how to get the point across to my son then I call one of my friends, who is a math whiz and she explains to him. I feel like if my kid is not performing well the fault is mine, not his. I have talked to some of the teachers and administrators, who all say the same thing. If the parents were just more involved. Things would be better.

By ALDC

May 5, 2006 10:09 AM | Link to this

South Side, North Side, East Side, West Side. Doesn’t matter where the school is. The parents make the school!

By Manny

May 5, 2006 10:56 AM | Link to this

Kym - it’s “Except” not “Accept”. I know we’re not supposed to correct spelling and such on blogs - but, that one just makes my skin crawl!

By VB

May 5, 2006 11:02 AM | Link to this

I don’t necessarily agree with every aspect of their use, but vouchers seem to be the only workable alternative at this point. Things are so bad in public schools that salvaging the current system just simply will not happen. Voucher systems are not perfect, but they will allow some degree of competition and freedom of choice. In our society, these concepts usually work out well, in the long run. In fact, there are pending court cases that may mandate the use of vouchers. In a certain legal sense, Brown v. Board of Education gives some legal footing for such a system nationwide. One thing for sure, what we are currently doing is not working. We need to change.

By teach overseas

May 5, 2006 11:02 AM | Link to this

While there are a lot of distractions at some schools, there is learing that takes place. While 90% might not be passing the CRCT, 70% of them are. Just putting a kid in the “best” district is no guarentee of success. This child is going to do well because it is expected at home and no less will be tolerated. This mother can become active in her school and push for change and challenge in her daughters school. And of course, so much of learning takes place at home. Math and science in the kitchen and the back yard, history and vocabulary in great literature. Morals and values by everyday life experiences and time spent with parents and other good adults.

By SET

May 5, 2006 11:03 AM | Link to this

You can’t have a free society - and a permissive society like we do, and complain because other parents aren’t good parents. You can’t make them be good parents. What you can do is discriminate.

We used to do it all the time. It’s very popular among people that control their own destinies. My parent’s did it. I do it to.

First thing is to relocate the family to a place - neighborhood, gated community, state, whatever… where you live among people who share your values and not try to stick around these “other” parents you complain of and their children. Then you can be happy and they can be happy and you are not sitting around complaining about other people doing what they want to do.

Since you have now relocated to a discriminating place, your kids will go to school with others with similar values and things will go more according to your wishes. Problem solved.

The alternative is an edless fight to change people or to save people. And you will annoy them and wear out yourself - while not getting your children the education and upbringing you think is best for them.

I recently went with a co-worker to look at a house she and her husband were thinking of buying. It’s in a gated subdivision (in CA) as very many of the new houses are now in my area. He husband likes to work on cars at his house (Garage door up). That’s not permitted in the gated communities. She wanted to buy there, he doesn’t. They’ve never lived in a gated area before and they don’t want to give up their “freedom” to do whatever they want. I live in an ungated area that has severe restrictions that are rigidly enforced (one of the reasons I bought there).

To each his own. I opt for less freedom, others don’t.

Brave New World!

By Homeschool Mom

May 5, 2006 11:27 AM | Link to this

I’d like a voucher (or a tax credit)to pay for the books and supplies I purchase to homeschool with since I am also paying school taxes and getting nothing in return(which was what my children were getting while enrolled in the school system!)

By Gail

May 5, 2006 11:31 AM | Link to this

I agree with a lot of what Ms. Jones has to say about vouchers. Recently I have heard more things about school choice without vouchers. This sounds interesting to me if anyone here has more information about that, I’d like to hear it.

As far as parent responsibility, I have to say this. The time for waiting for other parents to get their acts together is OVER. The schools need to set out some productive guidelines, create rules to follow and if the rules are broken, get those kids (and consequently their parents) out of that environment and into one that might be “more suitable”. If that means some sort of alternative school, so be it.

I am sick of schools being so afraid of lawsuits and parents that they allow all kinds of ridiculous behavior to continue. This is robbing other students of their education. And frustrating the parents who are trying to do the right thing.

By Sandy

May 5, 2006 11:43 AM | Link to this

The above posted comment regarding “discrimination in regards to relocation” is simply preposterous to me. You clearly missed the point of Ms. Jones’ essay.

Ms. Jones was merely stating that she is concerned with the public education system and what it has to offer her child. Irregardless of her current location. She is unable to afford a “gated community” henceforth her mixed views on the public voucher program.

As both a parent and an educator, I view this issue as a double-edged sword. The removal of large numbers of students ultimately affects the ability of these school districts to adequately compete with other districts. Change can only occur with cohesive cooperation of our school administration, teachers, parents, pta, and major stakeholders within our communities. Education must remain a priority if we want to improve upon our current conditions. Otherwise, we are dealing not only ourselves and our children a disservice, but ultimately humanity as well.

I urge all of those interested, to take a look at the below referenced citation. This was a case study based upon the premise that moving students to better school districts necessarily improves the quality of education received by these students. The ulitimate result of the study was that this relocation of students did not have an overall affect on the quality of education received. Other factors must be reviewed in order for this process to be comprehensive.

citation: Leventhal, T., Fauth, R.C., & Brooks-Gunn, J. (2005). Neighborhood Poverty and Public Policy: A 5-Year Follow-up of Children’s Educational Outcomes in the New York City Moving to Opportunity Demonstration. Psychology. Vol41, Iss6.

By hs sped

May 5, 2006 11:48 AM | Link to this

I agree with Set. Move to a place where people share your values. I did, and have never regretted it. As a teacher, well, you all know that I don’t make a lot of money. I work and live in one of the lowest paying counties in the metro area, but I am able to make payments on an older, quite small, home. I don’t have cable/satellite, DSL, caller ID, fancy vehicles, or eat out very much, but my kids are getting an excellent education. I guess I can move and live high on the hog after they all graduate.

By hs sped

May 5, 2006 11:53 AM | Link to this

Sandy, I haven’t read the book, but it sounds very interesting. I’ll put it on my summer list. One that you may enjoy is Rereading America. I can tell you that the plan to move the project kids from Atlanta to Morrow (before the 1996 Olympics) didn’t work at all. It brought the entire area down.

By hs sped

May 5, 2006 11:58 AM | Link to this

Meant to write journal article, not book.

By old dad

May 5, 2006 11:59 AM | Link to this

Welcome to the world of being a parent. If you care about your children (as the author does), then you make your choices for their benefit. Don’t like the school district? Then MOVE.

We talk in this country a lot about leveling the playing field for everyone. That’s what vouchers do - they give even the economically disadvantaged a legitimate choice. Yet, many people oppose vouchers because of what they might do. They might force everyone in the education community to do better. They might leave school systems with no choice but to jettison teachers that can’t (or won’t) teach. They might break the stranglehold that unions and weak administrators have on the education system. (The teachers unions in Florida cared so much about the kids that they went to court and argued that vouchers were wrong because it gave kids who get vouchers a chance at a better education.)

In any other situation, we allow a business to succeed or fail based based on how it performs. That performance is almost always based on the people in the enterprise and the way that they approach their job. Why not apply that standard to education? Everywhere that it has been tried, the result is that the local school system does improve.

Ms. Jones is right about one thing - parents matter. They matter throughout the education process. It is not just the preparation of a young child, it is the continuing involvement. If you go to the best performing schools throughout metro Atlanta, you will see parents providing assistance through volunteering and contributions. You will see parents active and engaged with the teachers to make sure that the right things happen. Parents who get vouchers do so because they care about their kids. Parents and kids who seek vouchers do so because they have been ignored by their local schools.

The motivation is always the same. Take care of your kids. Challenge the education system to do right by them. If you can’t get a voucher, then vote with your feet. Go where the schools are good. Either way, it’s the right thing. The consequences for the kids is what counts. If vouchers create bad consequences for bad educators, too bad!

By hs sped

May 5, 2006 12:09 PM | Link to this

Parents who care about their kids get vouchers? Who pays for the vouchers? The government? Where do they get the money? Oh right, from middle class America. Either way, living in a place where I have to make monetary sacrifices, or paying taxes so that low income parents can have vouchers, I get screwed, don’t I? I think everyone should carry their own weight unless they are physically, or mentally, unable to do so. What’s wrong with that idea?

By Sandy

May 5, 2006 12:10 PM | Link to this

This is my first time entering this blog, but I am now going to visit quite frequently.

I have enjoyed the discussion, thus far.

By Amber

May 5, 2006 12:16 PM | Link to this

Here’s the orignial quote: I have come to a frightening conclusion. I am the decisive element in the classroom. - Dr. Haim G. Ginott Here’s my take on it: I have come to a frightening conclusion. The only person I can control is myself. Teachers are expected to have “classroom management.” I can manage a class, no problem. Management (direction, encouragement, monitoring) is possible when you have a group of motivated individuals. However, when you have a classroom of 24 completely unmotivated individuals, you’re not talking about management anymore, you’re talking about the need for control. Groups of people who are only motivated to blindly deconstruct themselves and, thereby, their culture, cannot be controlled without riot gear. Honors students, who desire to succeed, do fine in any school. They flock together, moving in their small group of friends and similar teachers. While it is true that these students may not be exposed to more advanced classes, they will succeed if the motivation is there. They will be able to go to college, continue to succeed, and provide a better future for all of us. However, those students who wish only to sell and use drugs, make plans for future sexual encounters, and disrespect anyone who crosses their path will terrorize, then accrue into their posse, students who are “on the fence”. The options are as always - fight or flight. Are we going to give students vouchers, encouraging flight? Or are we going to fight to make the schools we have better? It would be a very simple thing to do if we adapted some of the strategies that private schools use; if they are successful, why don’t we copy them, instead of sending our students to them? Afterall, when I was studying education in college, and then when I started my first year, I was expected to observe other teachers and glean from them what I could. We should expect our schools to do the same.

By SET

May 5, 2006 12:25 PM | Link to this

I’ve read Sandy’s post.

People vote with their feet. That’s been true as long as history can tell. Not cited study cannot change what I have lived through and the evidence of my own eyes.

Yes, moving the kids to an environment where education is taken seriously will always help them live productive lives. Yes getting kids out of ghetto schools into schools with discipline and tracking will produce a healthier and more rewarding environment for any child.

One of the problems with increased vouchers is the possibility that the government may get more of it’s hooks into the private schools and force them to relax their discipline and discrimination policies. So I don’t want vouchers perhaps.

You see, I want the kids from bad and broken homes in ghetto schools so they are not near the good kids from good families. I want schools to discriminate.

That was a rhetorical statement. But it makes the point. All men are not created equal. They are so before the law, not socially and not intellectually. This is not news.

As long as we have a free society where people can do as they want, and a welfare society where people are not allowed to sink to Calcutta levels of poverty, you will have the pathology we see in the ghettos. If you want to keep our freedoms and want to educate normal children well, you have to have a mechanism where you can get away from the libertines.

I don’t want a voucher system that ends up being used to allow the screw-ups to pursue the good kids into private schools and to force the same living conditions there now existant in the public school system (unreasonable tolerance).

I would support tax credits for education being extended from college only to secondary schools and college. These credits would be useful to the middle class. And yes, we need to cut funding to the public schools as they would shrink as the middle class kids flee that system. If public schools want more money they will have to create curriculum that their students will work with, add vocational, subtract academic.

By Fed Up

May 5, 2006 12:26 PM | Link to this

Sandy - I’m sorry, but heavens to Betsy…. you are an EDUCATOR and you use the word “irregardless” in your post? You also use the word “affect” when you should use the word “effect.” “Henceforth” is also improperly used. Typos are one thing, but these mistakes are not typos. If teachers can’t get basic grammatical rules and vocabulary right how can we expect any better from the kids they teach? Sandy’s post is a perfect illustration of what is wrong with public education.

I am assuming, of course, that Sandy teaches in public school.

By Gail

May 5, 2006 12:29 PM | Link to this

Fight or flight. Why should the good students have to flee? Why not turn it around and give flight to the uncooperative students? That is, flight to another environment, thereby leaving the school for the students who want to learn? That’s a private school policy that should be copied by public schools. Uncooperative students (and parents) are simply not tolerated. Notice, I did not say, unmotivated, slower students, but UNCOOPERATIVE students.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

May 5, 2006 12:38 PM | Link to this

Does anyone know if Kathy Cox had anything to input, regarding the 21 Superintendents letter to the AJC?

That was a very good letter. I don’t think Sonny or Kathy will get the message.

Vouchers will not solve the problem, it will just move the “PROBLEM” to another location. Keep throwing PAINT on a wall with holes.

By Sandy

May 5, 2006 01:02 PM | Link to this

Fed up,

I appreciate your comments, such as they are.

affect - to have on effect on someone or something, influence, shape, to concern change

effect - outcome, result

The meanings of the above listed words should now be quite clear.

My personal opinions are listed in my posting and should be viewed as such. I am quite a passionate person, but am wise enough to understand the true meaning of “netiquette.” You should look that word up in the near future.

By Amber

May 5, 2006 01:21 PM | Link to this

Gail - exactly! I don’t want the “good kids” fleeing the schools; I want the ne’er-do-wells forced out instead. I agree with you completely; if/when we adopt this “private school” policy, our public schools will thrive. My school’s “suspension rate” declined last year…sounds good, right? However, as an “insider,” I happen to know that many students that should have been suspended were not. Despite our “zero tolerance” policy, I have watched vicious students fight, then walk right back into the classroom, victorious. One student hit another student so hard that the child had to have surgery on his nose. This criminal is back in the school. Terrorism? Try public schools on for size. We need to have the courage to remove people who are terrorizing our students.

By Ernest

May 5, 2006 01:26 PM | Link to this

Should your personal wealth be the primary factor in determining which public school your children attend? Many times, this is what it comes down to. Do you penalize a child based on their parents financial situation? I believe the compassionate side in most of us say ‘no’ to this but we recognize there would be chaos if we let anyone go to any school without rules. Who decides whether Johnny goes to the ‘good’ school on the other side of the tracks or the ‘not so good’ school in his neighborhood?

Count me among those that agrees with much of what SET said above. I’m not sure the government can legislate whether someone will be a good parent. More good, involved parents will result in more good schools.

By BlindHomer

May 5, 2006 01:41 PM | Link to this

Fighting to make your school better sounds noble, but is probably foolish. Government programs from the Great Society to NCLB have tried, unsuccessfully, to break the cycle of poverty. It’s never going to happen. There will always be lower socioeconomic groups, populated largely by stupider and less motivated individuals. If you want to save them, joint the Peace Corps. If your goal is the best for your child, move and save yourself.

By Alice

May 5, 2006 01:47 PM | Link to this

Measuring my words carefully, it sounds like the Ms. Jones is a single parent. Never once, does she write the word “We” in relationship to being able to afford tuition. While marriage is certainly not a guarantee that a family can afford private schools, most private school families are two income families.

Ms. Jones has clearly made some choices that make her situation more difficult. Now it is time to make the hard choice, one that may seem unbearable. She has to move. I am certain that she doesn’t want to leave her community — but people move for educational reasons all the time.

I have a neighbor who relocated her family to Virginia because she thought public education was so much better there.

By lynn d

May 5, 2006 02:05 PM | Link to this

I had a conversation about school choice with a friend today. The liberal, soft-hearted me, worries about choice because it will leave children behind. Those children whose parents don’t care, are illiterate, or in turmoil are less likely to have parents who take the time to make a choice. The schools that end up with the leftovers won’t stand a chance.

As a parent, though, and a strong public school advocate, I am beginning to believe that for my children, school choice would be blessing. Those children (and their do nothing parents) wouldn’t be in my kids’ school and therefore not my problem (or my children’s). It is tough.

That said, if I thought my children weren’t getting a good education, we would move. Ms. Jones should do the same thing.

By Fed Up

May 5, 2006 02:20 PM | Link to this

Sandy, the problem isn’t with the definition, its with the part of speech. “Affect” is a verb, not a noun. “Effect” is a noun. When you use need a noun.. you need to use the work “effect” instead.

By alex

May 5, 2006 02:32 PM | Link to this

I love how the educators always come out and say that vouchers will destroy the schools. It’s tough to swallow the idea that you’ll be forced to actually teach, isn’t it? Simply put, vouchers will force schools and educators to sink or swim. Bad teachers will ultimately sink, and good teachers will ultimately swim. After all, if you’ve got no competition, then why try harder? That’s a huge part of why our public education is so terrible. Competition works in private schools, private industry, the global economy, and it’ll even work in public education. Why is it that educators suddenly think competition is the most horrible idea ever when it’s suggested that they be subject to it?

However, if we could first actually abide by the Constitution and abolish the Federal Dept of Education, then our local school districts could actually have a say in how the schools are run and what is actually taught. Empower the local schools to have a say in what goes on, and we might make a difference. Do that first and then give the parents a choice.

By Amber

May 5, 2006 02:51 PM | Link to this

alex, I guess you’re right…I’m a bad teacher…just today, when I asked a student to pick his pants up from around his knees and pull them to his waist, and when that student replied, “when you buy my jeans you can tell me how to wear them, b***”…I did nothing. I didn’t ask him for his ID (which he didn’t have), I didn’t ask him for his name (which he wouldn’t have told me) and I didn’t give chase, following him down halls, up and down stairways, until I could either get a teacher to help me or became exhausted. Why? Because I’m a bad teacher. Or maybe, just maybe because when I’ve done those very same things before, I haven’t received support from anyone in the education community or the community-at-large. In fact, I’ve been cursed at by a parent who thought it incredulous that I would touch her son’s shoulder in an attempt to stop him from walking away from me. I know it is difficult for laypeople to understand why it may not always be a teacher’s fault for students’ failures, but think of it this way: Have you ever gone into work late and blamed it on your boss? Have you ever cursed at a colleague and blamed it on your boss? Have you ever cursed or disobeyed your boss and then blamed it on your boss? In the classroom, teachers are the bosses, the supervisors, the managers; if you, as an adult, wouldn’t blame your bad behavior on your manager, why would you blame children’s behavior on a teacher? If children are to become responsible adults, they must take some responsibility.

By Amber

May 5, 2006 02:54 PM | Link to this

alex, I guess you’re right…I’m a bad teacher…just today, when I asked a student to pick his pants up from around his knees and pull them to his waist, and when that student replied, “when you buy my jeans you can tell me how to wear them, b***”…I did nothing. I didn’t ask him for his ID (which he didn’t have), I didn’t ask him for his name (which he wouldn’t have told me) and I didn’t give chase, following him down halls, up and down stairways, until I could either get a teacher to help me or became exhausted. Why? Because I’m a bad teacher. Or maybe, just maybe because when I’ve done those very same things before, I haven’t received support from anyone in the education community or the community-at-large. In fact, I’ve been cursed at by a parent who thought it incredulous that I would touch her son’s shoulder in an attempt to stop him from walking away from me. I know it is difficult for laypeople to understand why it may not always be a teacher’s fault for students’ failures, but think of it this way: Have you ever gone into work late and blamed it on your boss? Have you ever cursed at a colleague and blamed it on your boss? Have you ever cursed or disobeyed your boss and then blamed it on your boss? In the classroom, teachers are the bosses, the supervisors, the managers; if you, as an adult, wouldn’t blame your bad behavior on your manager, why would you blame children’s behavior on a teacher? If children are to become responsible adults, they must take some responsibility.

By Gail

May 5, 2006 02:56 PM | Link to this

Running from one school (or school district) to the next does not fix the problem. These “non-cooperating” parents are everywhere to some degree. There are parents everywhere who think their children are above or outside of the rules for everybody else. Parents who keep moving to so-called “better” schools or areas are not fixing the real problems.

Part of what has happened in APS is that the “good” parents ran to other school districts or private schools, if they could afford it. I understand that all parents want what’s best for their individual child. I feel the same way. To solve the problems though, some “good” parents are going to have to stay and fight and nowadays those parents aren’t willing without the support of the administration and staff. We need rule changes and enforcement in public schools.

By T-Man

May 5, 2006 02:56 PM | Link to this

Been There Done That. For 4 years my wife and I tried with other parents to improve a high school on the Southside. We went house-to-house handed out flyers to the kids to take home. Guess what the attendance at the PTA/PTO did not change. Just same 45-60 parents for a student body over 1,000. IT DID NOT WORK. We moved before our younger ones had to attend that same high school. You cannot make parents be good parents. I was in the old neighborhood the other day and all the parents we worked with have moved also. The problem is that these same parents have 3-4 kids each and none of them care about the school. What happens when their 3-4 kids have their own 3-4 kids? RUN FOR THE HILLS!!!! Vouchers may not be perfect but a 3-4 hour commute will be worse.

Fed-up Just let people speak their mind, who cares about the spelling or grammer at this point. This isn’t a spelling bee.

By Amber

May 5, 2006 02:57 PM | Link to this

oops; sorry for the double post, and I’m glad somebody censored my post. I meant to put asterisks myself.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

May 5, 2006 03:00 PM | Link to this

The teachers will not have to worry at all. If vouchers are allowed, the Private schools will have a teacher shortage. They will have to LOWER, their criteria for good teachers.

My questions is WHO WILL PAY for the TEACHERS? Will they accept the same pay as the private school teachers? I hear the private school teachers are underpaid as well. I’m sure that the Private schools will have to Raise the tuitions to cover more teachers. They will also have to build more classrooms.

Not, everyone will be able to go to private schools - but there will be enough who qualify to over burden the private schools.

There will be two LOOSERS, if we go to vouchers (1.) Public Schools and (2.) Private schools.

NOTE: I know that private schools have the right to refuse the students they do not want, but MONEY Talks and most will accept the government (gauranteed)vouchers. In Gwinnett alone, they have enough students who meet Private school criteria to overburden every Private school in the county.

Yes, people & churches will rush out to start Private schools - because of the vouchers.

Hey teachers - start your own private schools - you can make a killing.

By T

May 5, 2006 03:00 PM | Link to this

Been There Done That. For 4 years my wife and I tried with other parents to improve a high school on the Southside. We went house-to-house handed out flyers to the kids to take home. Guess what the attendance at the PTA/PTO did not change. Just same 45-60 parents for a student body over 1,000. IT DID NOT WORK. We moved before our younger ones had to attend that same high school. You cannot make parents be good parents. I was in the old neighborhood the other day and all the parents we worked with have moved also. The problem is that these same parents have 3-4 kids each and none of them care about the school. What happens when their 3-4 kids have their own 3-4 kids? RUN FOR THE HILLS!!!! Vouchers may not be perfect but a 3-4 hour commute will be worse.

By Sandy

May 5, 2006 03:02 PM | Link to this

Fed up, thanks.

I appreciate your comments.

By Sandy

May 5, 2006 03:03 PM | Link to this

Fed up, thanks.

I appreciate your comments.

By EW

May 5, 2006 03:17 PM | Link to this

Fed up, I’m fed up with you; please find something positive to add to the topic. We aren’t usually that petty here on this blog… WOW.

By alex

May 5, 2006 03:23 PM | Link to this

Amber, since you’re an educator I’ll give you a free pass for not being able to understand a whole post. Note that I said we should give our local schools the ability to decide what goes on inside those schools. I agree with you on kicking ne’er-do-wells to the curb if they don’t feel like learning. Teachers can not teach with disruptive kids in the class that they have no power over. That has to happen first. Once our schools have actual power over what happens in the school, then we can give parents a choice. However, even if teachers have the ability to kick disruptive students out of their classrooms, those teachers will still claim that vouchers will destroy all of society.

By alex

May 5, 2006 03:24 PM | Link to this

Amber, since you’re an educator I’ll give you a free pass for not being able to understand a whole post. Note that I said we should give our local schools the ability to decide what goes on inside those schools. I agree with you on kicking ne’er-do-wells to the curb if they don’t feel like learning. Teachers can not teach with disruptive kids in the class that they have no power over. That has to happen first. Once our schools have actual power over what happens in the school, then we can give parents a choice. However, even if teachers have the ability to kick disruptive students out of their classrooms, those teachers will still claim that vouchers will destroy all of society.

By lynn d

May 5, 2006 03:24 PM | Link to this

It is ironic that Patti linked the discussion about vouchers with the Atlanta tax increase (well, sort of). The extras that Atlanta’s high tax rate pay for helps keep families in public schools. Many of the families that use Atlanta’s top performing schools demand all the extras, the bells and whistles so to speak.

Without those extras, many of those families would be out of there.

By lynn d

May 5, 2006 03:25 PM | Link to this

It is ironic that Patti linked the discussion about vouchers with the Atlanta tax increase (well, sort of). The extras that Atlanta’s high tax rate pay for helps keep families in public schools. Many of the families that use Atlanta’s top performing schools demand all the extras, the bells and whistles so to speak.

Without those extras, many of those families would be out of there.

By EW

May 5, 2006 03:31 PM | Link to this

Alice, while I appreciate you speaking gently, I don’t know if I appreciate the entire tone of your response. I have many students from marriage’s who are a mess! I also have many two income marriages who cannot afford private school, these are not the working poor, and these are people with degrees and are professionals. As a matter of fact what if two teachers who were married decided to send their child to private school, on a two income teacher salary will they be able to afford $15000.00 in tuition for private school?

By Jennifer

May 5, 2006 03:40 PM | Link to this

Alice, I have to comment on your a***** post. my comments follow your incredibly retarded statements:

“Measuring my words carefully, it sounds like the Ms. Jones is a single parent. “

MEASURE? How did you measure this? What are the units? What criterion did you apply to come to a decision that Ms Jones is a single parent. Now that you have reached your conclusion, what are the implications?

“Never once, does she write the word “We” in relationship to being able to afford tuition.”

So the f*** what? I’ve been married for 10 years. I’m selling my house right now and when I talk about it I say, “I am selling my house.” And when I talk about my kid I say, “My kid is a genious. I’m taking him to soccer today. I had to fuss at him because he hit another kid. I fed him dinner and then put him to bed.” When what actually happened is that my husband helped with about half of that stuff. So, your statement means jack s**.

“While marriage is certainly not a guarantee that a family can afford private schools, most private school families are two income families.”

This has to be the stupidest thing in the world that anyone ever said. Try this, while carrying an umbrella does not guarantee that it will rain, most rainstorms will fall on people who carry umbrellas. Idiot. Why dont’ you state something else useless. Oh, wait, you have…

“Ms. Jones has clearly made some choices that make her situation more difficult.”

And we know this, clearly, because I have proved to you that she is a single mother, thus deserving the title Ms. instead of Mrs., which is much more prestigious.

“Now it is time to make the hard choice, one that may seem unbearable. She has to move. I am certain that she doesn’t want to leave her community — but people move for educational reasons all the time.”

Concede point. I am also in this situation. I am moving from soulless Gwinnett County into Atlanta because both the SO and I work in the city. In order to live in a good school district we have to give up home ownership. Why? I want the 2 hours I lose everyday commuting. I don’t want to put my son is after-school care. And I hate the suburbs. And so does my spouse, making us the ubiquitous “we” that’s so important to you. However, I don’t see how this has anything to do with your running denouement of Ms. Jones character.

“I have a neighbor who relocated her family to Virginia because she thought public education was so much better there.”

So, you start out trashing Ms. Jones and end up rambling. Brilliant. Go jump off a cliff. You and everyone small-minded like you.

By SET

May 5, 2006 04:02 PM | Link to this

Sandy: If this is your first time on this blog you’re doing just fine.

One of the rules we are supposed to follow (laid down by Patti) is that we are not to indulge in catfights/name calling and such between each other. Some people can’t follow the rules because of some issue of their own.

Most of the bloggers look into the site during the day and may only have a minute to read and chime in between work and running around wherever we go. Thus the typos and spelling errors - and the very quick comments. Take everything with a grain of salt.

If you get a chance as you blog - let us know something about you so we understand where your viewpoint comes from!

Back on point - does the readership think that increased use of tax credits can accomplish the “work” of school vouchers with less paperwork? Suppose we were to just phase in secondary school as allowable for education credits already present in federal tax law?

My friends here in CA who pay $10k a year per child for Catholic High School (plus the kids’ 1 hr freeway drive each way to school) cannot deduct anything for this, but when the older child starts college will deduct or take tax credit for similar expenses. They are quite happy one child is finishing HS because of this.

Use of parent tax credits may pay off with less intrusion and red tape for the secondary schools than a voucher system would.

By V for Vendetta

May 5, 2006 04:05 PM | Link to this

If the education is not up to par, then MOVE. It’s as simple as that. People always say “but what if I cant afford to live in one of the good districts?”

Guess what? You can. If you REALLY cared, then you would find a way to make it work. If the education of my child was at stake, I would figure something out. (Note: within the confines of the rules of course. This is NOT an excuse to send your kid wherever you want under bogus pretense and claim you were just trying to do right by your child. That’s BS.)

By AYoungMom

May 5, 2006 04:07 PM | Link to this

Thanks to Jennifer and EW for responding to Alice. Even if Ms Jones is a single parent you have no clue as to how or why she is a single parent. She could be a widower, a divorcee escaping an abusive situation for herself or her child. there are so many reasons why this could be the case that your standing in judgement of her is dead wrong. She obviously cares about the education of her daughter and is willing to do what it takes to see her successful. That IMO is way more important that how many “income earners” are in a household.

By Taxpayer

May 5, 2006 04:10 PM | Link to this

I don’t want my tax dollars going for vouchers when they might be better spent on providing birth control for young men and women who have no business having children while they are still children themselves. These unwanted kids flood the school system, bringing their lack of respect for anyone or anything along with them.

By Steve

May 5, 2006 04:15 PM | Link to this

Jennifer:

WOW!!! What brought that on? Someone posts an OPINION with which you disagree, so you go on a profanity-filled diatribe. Not only that, you call someone’s opinion “useless,” call the person an “idiot,” accuse them of being “small-minded” and tell them to “jump off a cliff.”

I hope that I never post something with which you disagree. Good grief. It’s possible to have different OPINIONS without resorting to the profanity and name-calling.

By AYoungMom

May 5, 2006 04:17 PM | Link to this

Thanks to Jennifer and EW for responding to Alice. Even if Ms Jones is a single parent you have no clue as to how or why she is a single parent. She could be a widower, a divorcee escaping an abusive situation for herself or her child. there are so many reasons why this could be the case that your standing in judgement of her is dead wrong. She obviously cares about the education of her daughter and is willing to do what it takes to see her successful. That IMO is way more important that how many “income earners” are in a household.

By MrLiberty

May 5, 2006 04:19 PM | Link to this

hs sped and others:

First lets look at how the current system is funded before we look at vouchers.

In our current system, no matter how many kids you have, all a household pays for educating its children is about $500-$2000 (a percentage of the property value). Some maybe more, some less, but generally in this range. The state spends $6000 + for each child’s education. That means that for every child attending school from each household, the state must STEAL and addition $4000 - $6000 from other property owners. Businesses pass those costs on in higher prices for everyone, and childless households pay without receiving any services. Plain and simple, the system is based on the immoral principle of theft. Every child in government schools is the recipient of this theft, as are their parents.

Vouchers would need to be based on that same immoral principle of theft. What will make vouchers even worse is the fact that they will not come without strings. No government money ever does. One of the things that makes private schools so successful now is that they can chose who they let attend. It is likely that they will no longer be able to do this once they start accepting vouchers (think government money). What also makes private schools better is their ability to put together their own curriculum. LIkely that will also change once the money is accepted.

Yes, the government school system is a horrible display of what can happen when something as important as education is allowed to be run in a totally socialistic manner. The private sector, with all of its faults, at least must respond to the demands of the consumer in the end. They have children that are prepared for school, simply because the parents “value” education (by virtue of the fact that it actually costs them). They deliver a product because their customers can leave with their money if they choose.

Vouchers will destroy the only viable option that single parents have. The government will overwhelm the private system with horrendous regulations as they have done with the government schools, and the smart schools with refuse to accept the vouchers anyway so as to avoid this intervention in their affairs.

A free market approach based on parent payer, scholarship, and charity along with tax breaks for those who contribute to the education of others would be a far better solution to the problem than vouchers. In the mean time, homeschooling is the best alternative open to virtually everyone and it doesn’t come with serious regulations or costs, and delivers an even better result that private schools can deliver.

By SET

May 5, 2006 04:19 PM | Link to this

Recent comments read like a child has invaded our site - it is playground dialogue. Adults keep the comments on an adult level even if the points made are controversial.

If you can’t do this others will think of the writer as being a student in a public school… Unbridled emotion in public discourse is a pretty clear sign the author is not fully grown.

Public discourse is about policy not about personalities. If people want to get personal we have children and co-workers to argue with.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

May 5, 2006 04:26 PM | Link to this

SET - Jump off a bridge, you go on tirades all the time. You also imply untruths and name calling to people who are less fortunate than yourself.

Most of your comments are controversial and untrue.

With LOVE,

AMAZED

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

May 5, 2006 04:27 PM | Link to this

SET - Jump off a bridge, you go on tirades all the time. You also imply untruths and name calling to people who are less fortunate than yourself.

Most of your comments are controversial and untrue.

With LOVE,

AMAZED

By Jennifer

May 5, 2006 04:29 PM | Link to this

Oh, SET and others, get over yourselves.

FYI, I am 31, extrememly educated, and went to private Catholic school.

I am sick and tired of pompous people and those who try to discredit valid points because of social prejudice and trying to project an image that should somehow make you and your say more valid.

And, yes, I did think Alice’s opinion sucked a*. That was my OPINION. So, go fly a kit when you go jump off that bridge.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

May 5, 2006 04:32 PM | Link to this

SET - You have a lot of nerve, to say that someone elses comments are childish. You go on tirades and say untruthful things, about other people every week. So, from me to you - you are a…..hypocrite

Just received word, that… Every 5th grader at my daughters school passed the writing gateway. I’m not suprised the teachers & administrators are excellent people.

With LOVE,

Amazed

By SET

May 5, 2006 04:34 PM | Link to this

Mr. Liberty and I disagree sometimes but he’s got a point about the public school as presently constituted being fundamentally unsound.

On principal I can justify a general tax for an education system. But I have a terminal problem with the government - especially the federal government - actually running a school or setting the curriculum. It’s a disaster. As the feds invaded education - say, around Brown vs. Board of Education (which was the beginning of this disaster we find ourselves in) - public school education has collapsed in the USA and been replaced with political indocrination.

I think government should maybe structure the money and let the parents take it to the school they pick. Some people should never be allowed to raise a child - they are unfit parents. For their kids, other relatives or guardians should make the educational decisions. Not the Government.

You see, the Government, like any bureaucracy, will screw over the kids for political gain. Government doesn’t raise kids, people raise kids. I don’t mind voters setting minimum literacy requirements for diplomas. I don’t want a legislator mandating a certain hours’ study of political correctness.

The reason we talk of vouchers is the dire need to get more people away from these government schools.

By Me

May 5, 2006 04:34 PM | Link to this

Folks, play nice! Once Jennifer’s post hit this blog has gone downhill.

By Me

May 5, 2006 04:35 PM | Link to this

Folks, play nice! Once Jennifer’s post hit this blog has gone downhill.

By MrLiberty

May 5, 2006 04:35 PM | Link to this

One last point on tax credits since I see others speaking of them.

We americans and Georgians are unfortunately saddled with the most irresponsible government representatives. When the public demands a tax break they give it to one group, never cut spending to compensate, then pass the costs on to someone else either as the national debt or with other taxes elsewhere.

Personally I favor an end to the imcome tax. We did without it until 1916 I believe and we can certainly do without one now.

That being said, in our current system tax breaks for education should only be given to folks who pay for the education of someone else’s kids - not for their own. As hs said earlier, it is high time for parents to pay for their own kid’s education. Charity for others on the other hand should be deductible - for businesses as well.

With the literally hundreds of thousands of schools that will open under a market based system, the price competition will not only raise quality but drop costs to the point that most households would be able to afford private schooling without any assistance.

Don’t kill the private schools in your attempt to kill the government schools. Just kill the government schools and be done with it. Start now with homeschooling and fight vouchers with all you might.

By Ernest

May 5, 2006 04:42 PM | Link to this

Fellow bloggers may regret me asking this but I must! SET, why do you feel the Brown decision ‘was the beginning of this disaster we find ourselves in’? I’m going to get a cold one before I read your reply.

By SET

May 5, 2006 04:42 PM | Link to this

Hi Amazed.

I go off on triades? Maybe about policy. I try not to namecall. That’s what children and druggies do here in CA.

You don’t namecall. You state that you disagree big time with my point. There is a difference. And you don’t use swear words with stars. You’re dignified and a worthy opponent?

Yes I am pretty contemptous of some of the low life that are destroying California. But then - I work in close quarters with criminals on a daily basis (I’m a lawyer now, remember?). But then there is a thin line between victims and criminals around here - mostly they are related to each other. And they are almost always both products of the public school.

I taught in public schools once, and I went to public high school and college in this state. I like California but I see smart money having already moved into gated communities now buying property outside of CA to relocate to. Other family members have done so. I haven’t yet.

Don’t let your state turn into another CA.

And I argue with people for a living. You can do it without namecalling the other speaker even if you are talking about monsters in the room.

By MrLiberty

May 5, 2006 04:48 PM | Link to this

SET:

I certainly appreciate the frustration that most parents must be feeling. You do have some money invested in schools currently that you cannot take somewhere else, and there are so few of the private alternatives that your money wouldn’t buy you much anyway. I totally agree that more and more people need to leave the government indoctrination centers and I understand the allure of vouchers, but be warned - VOUCHERS ARE JUST A TRAP ! ! ! !

As things in the government schools get worse, and the cry gets louder for vouchers, you will start to see even the teachers groups, etc. getting on board. Why? Because secretly they all know that once the government is controlling the money, the government will control the schools. Once the private schools suck as bad as the government schools, there will be no real competition and things will go back to the way they always have.

Face it parents, you have been getting off cheap for way too long. Too many others have been victimized for too long as well on behalf of your kids. You are going to have to bite the financial bullet and pay your own way for a change if you really want change.

By Patti Ghezzi

May 5, 2006 04:55 PM | Link to this

Hello friends, please be civil and kind to one another.

Thanks and have a nice weekend,

Patti

By SET

May 5, 2006 05:05 PM | Link to this

Brown was the beginning of the Federal Government’s invasion into all things Educational. Education policy is a state power not expressly granted to the feds. Once the feds got on this bandwagon they’ve continued until they now set by federal decree the meals served and discipline policy and even have federal judges trying to decide if the school can stop the wearing of a particular T shirt and the wording of a pledge.

It is not the fed’s province. But then I feel that way about abortion also. Not because I have a problem with abortion - forced abortions are fine with me, but it isn’t a federal question. It’s a state question. The feds are also worried that the lethal injection might hurt, etc etc.

We should have good schools, bad schools, whatever schools. But not federal schools unless they are for Congressional Pages. If the system were not tampered with from a central authority the various states would succeed and fail and try innovations and change policy. Over time the USA educational system would sort itself out as the winners progress and the losers pay attention to the winners. Central control means the entire system can rot at the same time (which it is doing). Which is why the US Constitution tried to limit federal power.

Thus our sudden interest in Vouchers - which was not thought of and was rather unnecesary pre Brown.

As far as the race thing I believe that if Brown had told the states to settle the dispute among themselves, integrated schools would have eventually arrived but on much different terms. I believe that a more workable system of segregation by ability either by law or de facto would have emerged. And today the earlier poster would never have been addressed as B**ch by her student in a public school. And our secondary schools would still be the finest in the world.

Road to hell is paved with good intentions I suppose. But this all does lead into the voucher problem. Is the voucher just a cop out to allow more people to escape public schools rather than cleaning them up?

By Becky

May 8, 2006 08:10 AM | Link to this

We probably wouldn’t need vouchers anywhere if only the students interested in learning came to school. I say we need to lower the age that a child can drop out of school. 12 sounds good to me.

By Xanadu

May 8, 2006 08:41 AM | Link to this

Lets separate the kids that want to learn from those that don’t. The ones that don’t want to learn will be trained to learn skills used in low - thinking, low-paying jobs.

By claude

May 8, 2006 09:04 AM | Link to this

Vouchers would be acceptable for the simple reason that private schools could not “Kick Out” discipline problems like they do presently. I see jeans being worn daily with the waste at knee level, I would take a day off to see this knucklehead walk the halls at a private school wearing his ipod and ballcap tilted side ways sporting his new “Tony Montana firing a machine gun shirt” and holding his jeans in one hand and his BooBag in the other.

By claude

May 8, 2006 09:05 AM | Link to this

Vouchers would be acceptable for the simple reason that private schools could not “Kick Out” discipline problems like they do presently. I see jeans being worn daily with the waste at knee level, I would take a day off to see this knucklehead walk the halls at a private school wearing his ipod and ballcap tilted side ways sporting his new “Tony Montana firing a machine gun shirt” and holding his jeans in one hand and his BooBag in the other.

By claude

May 8, 2006 09:07 AM | Link to this

Vouchers would be acceptable for the simple reason that private schools could not “Kick Out” discipline problems like they do presently. I see jeans being worn daily with the waste at knee level, I would take a day off to see this knucklehead walk the halls at a private school wearing his ipod and ballcap tilted side ways sporting his new “Tony Montana firing a machine gun shirt” and holding his jeans in one hand and his BooBag in the other.

By claude

May 8, 2006 09:12 AM | Link to this

May 8, 2006 09:04 AM | Link to this

Vouchers would be acceptable for the simple reason that private schools could not “Kick Out” discipline problems like they do presently. I see jeans being worn daily with the waist at knee level, I would take a day off to see any of these knuckleheads walk the halls at a private school wearing his ipod and ballcap tilted side ways sporting his new “Tony Montana firing a machine gun shirt” and holding his jeans in one hand and his BooBag in the other.

By claude

May 8, 2006 09:32 AM | Link to this

Sorry everyone!!!

By deb

May 8, 2006 09:52 AM | Link to this

my daughter has been in private school since kindergarten. Now that she is at the end of her freshman year she does not want to continue in the school. I have looked and toured our public school in our district and honestly was horrified not only at the lack of supervision, kids not participating in classes, no one looked happy or excited about learning and even more stunned that only 58% will go on to college. The total expenditure per student is $7,193.21. I feel that the money should follow the child and I should have the right to put my child in a better school since I’m paying the tax dollars. I’m all for vouchers and make the public school system actually work for the students and teachers. I think the reason the private schools do better is that since the parents are paying anywhere from 12,000 to 20,000 a year for their child’s education, they tend to be more involved to make sure they’re getting their money’s worth. I for one am tired of paying almost 15,000 per year when my child should be able to get the same academic education at a public school that she currently is getting a the private school. VOUCHERS YES, YES, YES

By deb

May 8, 2006 10:18 AM | Link to this

I honestly think that most of the kids want to learn and will learn with a passion and excitement once the schools take control back and teachers are not walking on eggshells fearing of a lawsuit. Implement a dress code and stick with it, you can express yourself once you go to college!! Kids have too many choices, too many distractions, and too much power. Schools need to take it back. There are these zero tolorence rules (recall the girl that brought a butter knife to school) Enforce the zero tolorence on education (be prepared, ready to learn, have fun, participate, or leave) and not on stupid rules like butter knives…

By Robert

May 8, 2006 12:17 PM | Link to this

School vouchers - what an absolutely STUPID idea for those and from those that have absolutely no clue about education, period.

Todays world: Affluent students (families with power/money) mostly go to private schools. Private schools can pick and chose students and enforce rules/behavior at their whim because they can “kick out” the bad students that end up in public schools. Some public schools are “good” mostly because they exist in affluent neighborhoods.

Voucher world: All students (private and public) can go to any school with their little voucher. There is no “safe haven” of private schools for the affluent students. There is no “safe haven” of public schools in affluent neighborhoods.

It really makes me laugh at those that want vouchers the most because they are the ones that would mostly be hurt the most by that system!

BTW: Homeschooling parents - stop whinning! You made a decision to not take advantage of what your tax dollars already pay for. That was YOUR CHOICE. You cannot be paid back, so forget it.

By Amber

May 8, 2006 12:33 PM | Link to this

Alex, with all civility…I did read and understand your entire post, however I chose to respond to only part of it, namely the part that ruffled my feathers. Because if your “since your an educator” comment, you seem to be someone who is, generally, of a negative opinion about educators. I can understand why you may have this attitude, however, I can attest to the fact that many great educators, with high hopes for both themselves and their students, are demoralized by said students as well as administration, not to mention the “system” on a regular basis. There is plenty of blame to go around, but teachers wrongfully shoulder most of it.

By Elane

May 8, 2006 02:48 PM | Link to this

I have been in favor of vouchers for YEARS, for one reason and one reason only: If parents have strong religious feelings, they ought to send their kids to religious schools. Keep them OUT of the public schools, where they try to censor the libraries and the curriculum, and send their kids to evangelize. The Gwinnett mom on the anti-Harry Potter crusade is a prime example. Many of these folks will truthfully say “We can’t afford a private school.” Then give them vouchers. Give them school choice. Please, oh please.

By Robert

May 8, 2006 03:08 PM | Link to this

Elaine,

Don’t you understand? There would really be no such thing as “public schools” with any sort of voucher system! All schools, public or private, would be the same.

Also, I very much am against having my tax dollars turn into vouchers to then be given to any religous group (Muslum, Catholic, whatever). My tax dollars should not go to support any religon, period! If this is what you want, then move to the middle east where the government supports a single religon.

By MrLiberty

May 8, 2006 04:49 PM | Link to this

Deb,

Just when do you think you paid $15,000 for your kids education? You paid a tiny bit in income taxes, a bit in increased costs of goods, and maybe 1-2 thousand in property taxes. The rest was stolen from people like me that don’t have any children but must continue to pay for useless schools. So you don’t have $15,000 coming to you unless you are going to consider all of that stolen money to be yours. Continuing to steal to pay for vouchers is still stealing, and vouchers and all the strings that come with them will just destroy the private sector as well.

By lynn d

May 8, 2006 04:52 PM | Link to this

Robert

Actually, no government body could compell private schools to accept vouchers, so you can expect that none of the really high quality schools would do so. Vouchers will come with strings attached — how about no discrimination and perhaps some accountability — many private schools do minimal testing — so you can’t expect that the Paces and Westminsters of the world will take voucher students.

That said, the group that is most vocal against vouchers are parents in affluent communities who utilize public schools. They want to take no chances that inner city students could invade their havens. They live in the communities with no economic diversity and they want their schools to reflect their community. Bussing really scares them.

By MrLiberty

May 8, 2006 04:57 PM | Link to this

And for those of you who don’t think that vouchers will come with strings, just look at the comments from Robert. He says that he doesn’t want his tax dollars going to support a religious school (again, as if the bulk of the money comes from his pocket). Robert, do you support the GI bill? With the GI bill, you can attend Loyola university or any of hundreds of religion-oriented colleges and universities. Those are your tax dollars too you know.

Roberts complaints will be the tip of the iceberg. In California it was Wicca schools getting everyone worked up.

End all government involvement. Its the only way.

By Dan

May 9, 2006 09:39 AM | Link to this

But if you package it correctly most people will never figure out that their tax dollars are going to a relgious institution Donations to churchs are already tax deductible. (this is not meant to deceptive, but if people choose not to educate themselves why should we dumb down society to accomadate them). Which is why that is the way to handle this. Tuition to any accredited school should be deductible as a reduction in taxes or some significant %

By Lee

May 9, 2006 08:11 PM | Link to this

As a parent of a child attending private school, let me say that I absolutely detest paying tuition AND school taxes - especially to a school system that failed to provide a proper education for my child.

That said, I am against vouchers. While I would love to have help paying the tuition, I think vouchers would do much harm to the private school sector.

In our area, there are several church run schools with reasonable tuition (around $5 -6k). If you are a member, that cost is greatly reduced. If you’re not happy with public schools, there is a way.

By Robert

May 10, 2006 12:05 PM | Link to this

Lee -

Thank you for clearly spelling out the very reasons that I, like you, am against the voucher system!

Also, I don’t believe that anyone is really ever happy to write the check to pay for taxes. If they ARE happy, then there is probably something wrong with them!

By Elane

May 10, 2006 02:41 PM | Link to this

Robert,

As I envision it, students would “default” to public schools which could revert back to the type of public schools I remember, when kids were free to learn and live as free-thinking individuals (to a point) without subjective religious views being imposed. I guess I’m an old-timer: My parents said, never discuss politics or religion in school. That worked fine for my entire student career. Imagine my shock when I read stories about public schools being invaded by religious fanatics disguised as parents and teachers. Yes, I guess you’re right, that with vouchers, our school tax dollars would be diverted to some degree toward schools that emphasize beliefs we don’t agree with. We moved away from segregation for a couple of decades, but now, everyone’s got their own idea of what “should” be taught in schools. Children of religious parents still have the right to a free, public education, but that doesn’t give those parents the right to transform the public school system according to their c**-eyed vision. I’m simply being pragmatic. If you don’t give them money, THEY WON’T LEAVE. So, Robert, what it boils down to is, yes! I’m willing to pay the jerks cold, hard cash to take their beliefs and their poor, brainwashed children OUT of the school that my kid goes to. I want to BUY peace of mind for my son so he doesn’t have to be evangelized every day. Public, private, homeschool, church school…I don’t care where you go. Just GO. Questions??