Get Schooled

By Teacher Teacher

May 4, 2006 01:09 PM | Link to this

A school system like DeKalb urges students to take AP classes just so the system will look better in the propaganda it churns out to fool its taxpayers. Many students take the AP classes merely to increase their GPA. (An A yields a 5.0 rather than a 4.0.) Plus, some colleges give fractional quality points to applicants who have taken AP classes. Where I currently teach, the AP classes are taught by teachers who, although they have undergone AP training, are AP teachers because they sucked up to administration. The AP teachers at my school are hardly the best qualified and, in some cases, are worse than teachers of remedial classes of the same subject.

As a disclaimer, I teach an esoteric AP class every other year. I detest teaching it because the students take it just to have me as their teacher and not because of any interest in the esoterica I present.

AP is a successful marketing strategy by the folks who host the AP training and who score the tests. It’s Big Education/Business, people, not altruism.

By decaturparent

May 4, 2006 01:12 PM | Link to this

Hmmmm, I’m probably not the one to ask because I took AP calc and made a 1 on the AP. Perhaps the fact that the only three students in the class were I and two of my good friends, and we decided that if none of us studied, we could still all get Bs because our teacher graded on a curve.

Shameful… I know. I also read Cliff Notes to get through literature. I was the slackest high schooler of all time!

Sorry… I just had to take this opportunity to get all of this off of my chest and confess my sins - I’ve been holding in the guilt for all of these years. What an idiot I was! Sorry Mr. Fortney and Ms. McKain! Whew, I feel better now!

I would think that if you let anyone into an AP class just because they want to try it, you really do run the risk of having kids who can’t keep up slowing down the momentum of the class. Then everyone suffers and probably gets a lower score as a result.

I know that tracking is not the politically correct thing to do, but it seems that at some point there does need to be some place that truly talented and motivated college-bound kids in public school can go where they can strive to really challenge themselves without the interference of kids who are not so serious or capable.

I went to private school, so I don’t know what they do in public school, but I recall the AP test being fairly expensive. Do kids in public schools pay for it? Mine are in public school, but we aren’t even close to high school yet so I don’t know how it works.

By jim d

May 4, 2006 01:12 PM | Link to this

Interesting topic Patti.

I think this is one that each individual must weigh and make a decision based on how they feel.

My gifted child absolutely refuses to take an AP class; he’s taking honors or gifted CP classes instead, insisting that he prefers a higher GPA that will look better in the long run

. Since some colleges don’t accept the AP credits, I really can’t argue with his logic.

I guess it really just boils down to if the college of choice accepts the AP and how a student feels about the extra challenge. Personally I don’t see this choice, as being one that is life altering.

However, schools will continue to push these classes for prestige and monetary gain.

By De-Nae

May 4, 2006 01:16 PM | Link to this

hello, I feel that everyone should give ap a try if they are planning on attending college. I am currently a senior in high i feel that is has been a great benift for to take the ap. courses that were offered at my highschool, it gave the mind set to buckle down and relize that the teachers do not care it is up to you to ask the questions and stay after for help. It has been times when i have wanted to hangout with my friends but i had to chose bewteen school work or party i chose school work and these are decisions you will have to make in college. So in my thought take the ap if you want to go to college it will only better you.

By Patti

May 4, 2006 01:22 PM | Link to this

Jim, my concern with your son’s logic is that admissions folk at competitive colleges look at whether a student took advantage of the opportunities offered at his school. A student from a school that only offers two AP classes is rewarded for taking the two the school offered, but a student at a school offering many AP courses, like your son’s, could be penalized for not taking any. This is what college admissions officers have consistently told me over the years. I’m not saying it’s right or wrong - What do I know anyway? - but that is what I’m told. AP wields tremendous power in college admissions.

By Leia

May 4, 2006 01:48 PM | Link to this

jim d - I’ve had several students who got into competitive schools based solely on the fact that they took a “more rigorous” courseload! Your son’s logic may backfire on him. If given the choice between a student who opted to take honors/gifted courses, with all other things being equal (extra-curricular activities, sports, volunteer work, etc.), and one who took the hardest courses in the school (A.P., I.B.) - they would choose the A.P. student!

By jim d

May 4, 2006 01:59 PM | Link to this

Thanks, You may well be correct Patti; I’m not sure how college admissions weigh a students career. What I am sure of is that with all of his extracurricular activities, he doesn’t have the time to dedicate to AP classes. We’re talking a 15 year old Eagle Scout that is active in District level leadership, an active member of Key Club, JV. Wrestling, and Drama, who consistently volunteers in the community. Perhaps his attitude will change in his senior year, but if not? A couple of years at a Jr. College and a transfer might not be out of the question; he may even become a “career student.” Who knows?

By Lynn Stowers

May 4, 2006 02:00 PM | Link to this

Pattie and Leia— You are right about AP classes swinging choices on college admissions. As a long time AP English teacher (since 1983), I can attest to the fact that students who are clearly unable to do the work really interfere with the class. On the other hand, I have had students who buckled down and learned a great deal, students who did barely average work their junior year. And sometimes, not often, these students score passing and upward on the test. Whenever I am faced with students in the class who I don’t think will make it, I remember those who came around. Who am I to deny them the opportunity?

By Decaturparent

May 4, 2006 02:28 PM | Link to this

Lynn - do kids in public school pay for AP classes. When I was in school, I remember having to pay $100plus to take the test. How does that work now?

By BlindHomer

May 4, 2006 02:47 PM | Link to this

jim d - You have a gifted/honors 15 year old and two years at a junior college sounds okay to you? I suggested mine take all the AP she can get and to target admission into UGA as the minimum. She’ll take 3 honors classes and one AP next year in 10th grade, the toughest load available at her school.

By jim d

May 4, 2006 02:56 PM | Link to this

Yeah Homer, I have no problem with a two year college as a step towards furthering ones education. Like I said, one can always apply for a transfer into a four year program.

Personally, I have no problem with my child making the choice. To the contray, I encouage it. Right or wrong he’ll walk away with a knowledge that many never learn.

By jim d

May 4, 2006 03:04 PM | Link to this

Ok, some of you pro’s answer me this.

A student elects to do two years at a jr. college, maintaining a 4.0 GPA. then applies at one of the major colleges for a transfer. Would a graduating senior with a 3.0 that had taken a boatload of AP classes and did just above average have priority over the transfer as far as admissions?

By Robert

May 4, 2006 03:07 PM | Link to this

Students absolutely must have the basics of the course before taking an AP class. Can you imagine trying to teach at that high level and yet some of the student cannot even read? Is this really a good thing???

Plus, whenever you put “slower” students into AP classes you are doing an injustice to the “true” AP students because the entire class make decrease pace. Is this fair to the “true” AP students?

AP classes are not a requirement. It is extra. It is icing on the cake. You first must have the cake before you can ice it!!!

If a student is a borderline AP type student - fine, let them take the AP class. But, please don’t put general level students in an AP class!!! It isn’t fair to that student, to the teacher, or to the “true” AP students trying to prepare for the AP test.

By jim d

May 4, 2006 03:13 PM | Link to this

Just a thought.

Does anyone other than I believe we may be placing too much pressure on kids with the insistence that they take all these AP courses? I mean with illicit drug and prescription opioid abuse on the rise amongst teens and the increases we see in underage drinking and teen suicides, could we be pushing a little too hard?

By Lynn Stowers

May 4, 2006 03:21 PM | Link to this

Decaturparent: The state has for the past few years paid for one AP test per student. The cost of the test now is $84.00. I had one student taking so many this year he had to pay $264.00 on top of his one free test. I agree with Robert. Borderline students should be free to take AP classes, but students who can’t read and can’t write would only be very frustrated.

By Karen Armsby

May 4, 2006 03:53 PM | Link to this

jim d, For the kids who are perfoming at a high level, have superior reading and analytical skills, and who plan on going to a top ranked college, yes AP is a good idea. The increased workload is just a preview of the demands of college courses. The best students need to push themselves in high school if they also want to be successful in college. Colleges look at GPA and at how many higher level HS courses the student attempted. Many high schools give an additional weight to the GPA for the AP class grade (10 points added to my kids’ final grades in their AP classes in Gwinnett Co.)

By Leia

May 4, 2006 04:19 PM | Link to this

jim d - Unfortunately, 4 year universities look at community colleges as the 13th and 14th grades! Therefore, not much creedence would be given to a 4.0 from that school. Yes, the student who took the A.P. courses and did just above average (these are college-level mandated courses) would definitely get preference.

By Manny

May 4, 2006 04:25 PM | Link to this

jim d - If you’re so interested in your son getting good grades and not challenging himself - why don’t you have your son just take regular college prep level courses? Then, using your logic - he could have a 100% average! It’s a shame that you aren’t encouraging him to utilize his full potential, if he is as gifted as you say.

By MrLiberty

May 4, 2006 04:45 PM | Link to this

I have always believed that you get what you incentivize. If the way to get a better ranking for best high school is to “encourage” more kids to take the AP exam and classes, then plenty of unscrupulous schools will do just that.

My high school already had a 98% college attendance rate. They knew they were a good school, and they certainly didn’t need to fudge the results just for false glory. They encouraged kids to take classes bssed on their ability to perform and their ability to do well on the test. More importantly, they only really wanted kids in the class who would add value to the class, not just fill empty spaces.

Of course that is the difference between private and government schools. From grade inflation to social promotion to “teaching to the test”, government schools are failing so miserably on virtually every measurment of success that they will do whatever it takes to “appear” to be doing a good job. The private schools actually have to do a good job or the money and the kids go elsewhere. All hail the free market.

By Karen Armsby

May 4, 2006 04:59 PM | Link to this

Mr. Liberty, At my kids’ public high school students had to get approval or recommendation from teachers in order to sign up for the AP classes. AP was promoted for what it is, Advanced Placement.

By jim d

May 5, 2006 01:55 PM | Link to this

Manny, there’s much more to education than that which one gets at school. Realizing ones potential can not truly be done by just signing up for AP classes and acing every class. No my friend, the real world doesn’t exist in the classroom.

So while I have encouraged my son to challenge himself in academia, I feel it’s every bit, if not more, important that he be allowed to make decisions on things that will affect his life whether I agree with all of them or not. This is how this child learns, and how I teach. So while many may not place that kind of trust in the hands of a 15-year-old, I do and shall continue to.

I think what you may not be considering is that while I could force my will on his selection of classes, I can not make him pull the grades. This is a very goal oriented child, but he realizes he must set his own goals in life. I honestly believe he will change his mind in his senior year and sign up for several AP classes and then —- he will apply himself. Were I to force the issue????????

By jack

May 8, 2006 10:27 AM | Link to this

To Leia and JimD,

Most 4 year colleges are going to take transfers from the Junior colleges before an incoming freshman. The reason being the transfers are already in the college system and will probably not be taking up space in the lower level core classes. If a student is a attending a state run school like Perimeter all credits will transfer in. Plus the transfer GPA is usually lower than the requirements for incoming fresmen. I would recomend that anyone planning on doing the Junior college route get the grad requirements from the college they are planning on transfering into though. Perimeter will sometimes tell yo uto take courses that you don’t need or you cna take courses there and save some money over UGA or Tech.

By jim d

May 8, 2006 12:14 PM | Link to this

Thank you Jack. I’ll keep that in mind if he elects to go that route.

By T

May 9, 2006 08:56 AM | Link to this

LOL Jim there isn’t a CP gifted at our kids school. Mine takes AP to get away from the GA public school curriculum. I guess it depends on whether a gifted student is applying to a competitive college. Every school system we’ve been in says the same thing as Patti - if you are a gifted (even honors) kid and your school offers AP’s and you don’t take advantage of them you will be passed over for someone who did (all other things being equal).

By T

May 9, 2006 09:19 AM | Link to this

The school system we came from in Broward County FL paid for AP testing (all taken at the school not some huge unorganized testing center). They paid for online classes which also offered AP’s as well as honors and CP courses (can we get a topic about how lame the summer school and online courses are in Gwinnett and the outrageous cost). By the time my oldest graduated she had 10 AP’s and some of her peers had 15. She’s at a super competitive university and she says she would have never cut college life without taking AP’s from Soph to Senior year. Most top universities only use AP scores of 4 and above for placement and not credit. However it was worth it because she gets to bypass the big intro classes and take higher level courses which is really what it’s all about.

By Karen Armsby

May 9, 2006 09:49 AM | Link to this

jim d, CP is for average students, and gifted, honors and AP is for higher performing students. If your son has tested as gifted and only takes CP classes then he’s sliding through high school; he will not be competitive with other college applicants for the best schools; and he will struggle in college. Cut the number of extracurriculars and tell him it’s time to challenge his mind and take better classes.

By T

May 9, 2006 10:39 AM | Link to this

There is a discussion over on the website www.collegeconfidential.com on this issue of AP’s and extracurriculars. Some say getting the higher GPA with less challenge has some benefits and others say lower GPA but harder courses is the way to go when applying to top tier schools.

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=186787

By T

May 9, 2006 11:07 AM | Link to this

I have to agree with the first poster because we are not finding the AP teacher’s or even the gifted teachers (with the exception of maybe 1 or 2) qualified in comparison to what we are use to. So I don’t know if those Gifted, AP’s are actually better classes when taken here in GA because unlike other areas in the country that pay and require all AP students to test there isn’t any measure of how well the teacher is teaching the course. Again in Broward the teacher who’s AP classes performed well got incentive $$$.My DD sat through a semester of AP World History and could have studied the Barron’s AP Prep book which had more of what was on the test than what was taught in her class.

However AP’s look better on a transcript and if you can self teach if needed. Even better if you can pull a 4 and above on the test which I think is more of a qualifier than the class grade. It comes down to whether you want to play the admissions game - because that’s what it is.

By Robert

May 9, 2006 04:07 PM | Link to this

Students should qualify for AP classes. A general level student would be lost in such a class - it is unfair to that child and also to the others in the class that would be slowed down due to that child.

In my school, teachers must recommend students for AP classes. The students know the advantages of AP classes (the GPA advantage and the college credit) and they all mostly ask to be in them. However, if I do not feel like that student is AP material, I will not recommend that child for an AP class.

I guess my school is lucky/unique in that we have plenty of AP classes and AP teachers (as well as gifted certified teachers).

By T

May 10, 2006 08:27 AM | Link to this

Well at my DD’s old school only certain AP’s had prerequisites like the AP Sciences. You needed to have a min or be currently enrolled in algebra 2 or higher and if you took AP bio or Chem etc you should have taken the honors or gifted version before enrolling. But all the others like in History or English etc. anyone could sign up depending on year the student was (like AP Eng Lang was offered only to Juniors and AP Eng Lit was for Seniors). The classes have a way of weeding out the ones that can’t perform. There was a two week drop and add period just like how it is in college. Here if you ask to be moved it’s a production and you get major attitude. Oh and also there are parent waiver forms so that if a student really wants to take an AP but no one at the school thinks they should or they don’t have the GA prerequisite the student can still take the class. However they can’t transfer out of the class if it becomes a problem. So I guess that’s a deterrent to some but in the long run it won’t look good for the school. And now with most wanting the highest possible GPA I don’t think AP’s are going to be as popular for those wanting to stay in state for college.

If a school wants to be picky about who can and can’t get into an AP they are never going to make Newsweeks top 100 high schools in the country. I understand that this list is used alot in neighborhood marketing and also used in college admissions applications.