Get Schooled

By Teacher Teacher

April 28, 2006 11:04 AM | Link to this

The best language for a child to learn is Latin.

By Molly

April 28, 2006 11:14 AM | Link to this

I want my child to study a language that reflects the world in which we live. For me, that means Spanish or one of the “critical languages” such as Chinese, Russian, Korean, Arabic, Farsi, etc.

Unfortunately, DeKalb county is way behind the curve on languages. Very few elementary students get any foreign language, and many middle schools restrict foreign languages to students in 7th grade and above or who score above the 80th percentile on standardized tests.

The languages offered in DeKalb are extremely limited - the students in the High Achievers Magnet program at Kittredge and Chamblee Middle study only German. (I don’t see many want adds looking for German speakers. My ten years of German have been useless to me - both personally and professionally.) It is ridiculous to limit the “high achievers” to German when other languages would be far more useful.

By BlindHomer

April 28, 2006 11:29 AM | Link to this

I had years of French and German and never used either. Latin is deader than a rock. While it has benefit as a precursor of the ‘romance’ languages, stems provides about all the word derivations anyone would need. That leaves Spanish as the obvious and most practical choice. I see Arabic and Chinese et al as having limited usefullness other than for specific career paths. These can be pursued in post-secondary education not routinely taught to 7th graders.

By Ernest

April 28, 2006 11:33 AM | Link to this

Molly, you raise a good point. I do want to ask whether you or other advocates requested other language offerings? I understand Lakeside has a Japanese teacher on staff. Druid Hills offers Latin. Maybe we need to find out what those communities did to have those offerings and replicate that advocacy.

By E. Lewis

April 28, 2006 11:34 AM | Link to this

I took 2 years of French when I was in high school in Texas because I didn’t want to compete with the at-home, Spanish speakiung students.

I took a year of Latin because I wanted to be a pharmacist, didn’t happen, but that Latin class helped my verbal SAT score more than any tutor could have.

By MMM

April 28, 2006 11:41 AM | Link to this

French is the language of many of the African Refugees and it is much easier to “pick up” spanish after learning French than the other way around because it has more complicated grammar. For those reasons, I chose to have my 1st grade son is taking it daily at the International Community School—a Dekalb county charter. My 3rd grade daughter is doing Spanish.

If one ever expects fluency, it is much easier to work on it when young and the european languages are so much closer to English. I think there is merit in trying to do some of the ones that are very different just because it is good exercise for the mind to be able to think in multiple ways.

By V for Vendetta

April 28, 2006 11:52 AM | Link to this

I think ANY foreign language is a good thing. The fact that the choices are expanding is a great thing that will benefit many more people. As Americans, we need to work on our world view and expand our horizons a little. Many people schooled in major European countries are fluent in an alternative language. It’s time we stop limiting ourselves. When I was in high school (not that long ago mind you), the only real choices were Spanish, French, German, and Latin. It would have been much more interesting if we also had Chinese, Japanese, Russian, Arabic, and Australian.

Ok, maybe not that last one.

By Decaturparent

April 28, 2006 11:55 AM | Link to this

I can see the argument for Chinese given the economic and political rise of that country. However, I think that a grade school child would be hard pressed to get anywhere near fluent in Chinese, especially reading or writing it, because it is so completely different from English.

We have Spanish every day in K-5 here. Given our times, it seems Spanish is the most practical language to learn and the one where a kid is the most likely to achieve some degree of fluency since it is relatively similar to English. I am also a big fan of having some Latin in the older grades (middle school and up) because it helps so much with spelling and vocabulary.

I took seven years of French and can read it fairly well but have a hard time understanding it and speaking it. I agree with MMM though that it is easier to go from French to Spanish than the other way around.

By Atlanta Teacher AW

April 28, 2006 11:55 AM | Link to this

I took Spanish for five years; however, I heard that Latin helps with the SAT. As a teacher, though, I think that taking any language is beneficial for students, as they learn how to decipher and analyze new information and later apply it.

By SET

April 28, 2006 12:25 PM | Link to this

While I’m all for challenging education in public schools, exactly who do they think will enroll in Chinese Classes?

This sounds like a gimmick. If things are going so well in that school district that they have time and energy for this they must be doing well indeed.

I have a 16 year old relative whose parents have enrolled her in the local Jr College in the afternoon to take college level classes. She is in a major Urban area. She goes to her high school classes in the morning and drives herself back and forth. I did the same thing a generation ago but I was 17 (starting 12th grade) when I started.

Later during my college career I took (transferrable credit) classes simultaneously in Jr College while in a 4 year college to get classes I needed on (my) schedule.

I see the more specialized and advanced courses being done like this - different campuses. I wonder how one public high school would have enough serious takers to justify introduction of Chinese language class. Spanish, yes - it’s an official language of this country.

By Paulo

April 28, 2006 12:31 PM | Link to this

As a Brazilian expatriat living in the USA, I am astounded by the poor quality of English I hear spoken in Georgia. In other words, if kids can’t speak their own native language properly, should they spend much time on another? That said, it doesn’t matter what language they teach in school. Kids won’t learn anything useful unless they are absolutely forced to learn.

I took several years of English in Brazil but it wasn’t until I had to live and work in the United States that I could claim any degree of fluency. Its the same for any language..if children don’t hear a language constantly…and by that I mean inside and outside the home, they will not learn it.

The most multilingual cultures in the world are usually found in Western Europe, North Africa, and Southeast Asia were the children go to school in another language, speak another at home with their parents, and often speak a third or even fourth with relatives or certain regions of their own country . Again, constant exposure is a necessity.

By G

April 28, 2006 01:12 PM | Link to this

French is easier than Chinese or Arabic, but so what?

Latin may be dead, but it has been demonstrated that kids who are exposed to Latin in elementary schools knock the top out of vocabulary tests.

Learning languages involves learning about other cultures. A lot of kids need it to help knock them out of the provincial rut that so many grow up in. Personally, I’m working on Japanese at age 54, and I’m the better for it. Stretching the mind is always good for you. People get too hung up on only wanting to learn what has immediate utility, and that attitude is a big mistake.

By Molly

April 28, 2006 01:16 PM | Link to this

Ernest - I know that parents at my neighborhood elementary have requested a foreign language for years (most seem to want Spanish), but it is a very small school and has opted to use its FTEs to get very small classes (14 students in each 3rd grade class) rather than language teachers. As for the Kittredge magnet program - all the prospective parents I spoke with while taking the school tour seemed to think German was a really dumb choice. I don’t know if parents of children currently enrolled have made any effort to broaden or change the language program. I did ask if a student might opt instead for an independant study in a more useful language and received a rather befuddled look in response.

By Karen Armsby

April 28, 2006 01:22 PM | Link to this

G, “Stretching the mind is always good for you,” is the most intelligent comment today, thanks!

By luvs2teach

April 28, 2006 01:27 PM | Link to this

Oi, Paulo! Boa tarde!

I am learning Portuguese, largely because of the large number of Brazilian students I have. I had seven years of French and 2 years of Spanish in high school - outside of living in France as an exchange student, I rarely use it. I can read it well, but speak it with difficulty. My Spanish has proven to be an asset with the large population of Hispanic students.

Both my children took a year of French in the 8th grade, and switched to Latin in high school - my daughter is now minoring in Latin in college, and is going to take some Italian before spending a semester abroad in Italy.

I think all languages are good because they give our students a more rounded world view - sometimes learning for learning’s sake (rather than always attaching a practical application) can be fun (that concept ties right into the unschooling discussion from the other day, really).

As a science teacher who teaches a lot of vocabulary with Latin and Greek root words, I absolutely think 5th and 6th grade students would benefit from exposure to both Latin and Greek - not to mention the cultural and historic background that can be gained.

Spanish would probably be the most popular Romance language, and I think it’s good if high schools could start offering at least one Asian language.

We are a global economy - the more we expose our kids to, the better!

By lynn d

April 28, 2006 01:39 PM | Link to this

I believe that if you have students interested in Chinese and are committed to taking several years of it, there is value to it. I think that it would be wonderful for a student to have some mastery of this difficult and complex language.

Practically speaking, Spanish, Chinese and Arabic are the languages of the future. Lakeside probably has Japanese because at one point in time, everyone thought that the Japanese would rule the financial world.

As to german at Kittridge, it was part of the high achiever magnet program because German was considered the language of business way back when. Students cannot opt out, I saw a parent arguing with someone who works for DCSS about it at a meeting, and the employee kept saying, the magnet program is a choice, you don’t have to have your child participate.

By lynn d

April 28, 2006 01:44 PM | Link to this

One more point, I suspect that Lakeside uses its points allocation and chooses to offer Japanese. Other schools may have different needs/desires/wants and may only want to offer spanish.

As far I know, Lakeside doesn’t get extra points to fund the instruction in Japanese.

By George

April 28, 2006 02:20 PM | Link to this

@Teacher Teacher

As somebody who took 3 years in HS, Latin is a waste of time. I’ve always regretted not taking something more useful. And no it didn’t help me on the SAT verbal; reading helps more.

By Ernest

April 28, 2006 02:26 PM | Link to this

I like the points you raise, SET. After reading this article closer, I noticed one suggestion would be to either teach Chinese at a central campus and/or offer it online. It would not be cost effective to offer all languages at all campuses, especially if there is not sufficient demand for it. Unfortunately, some schools feel if they don’t have every offering another school has, they are being slighted. We’ve got to think ‘out of the box’ in offering all courses to all students without having a physical teacher onsite. Joint enrollment may be the way to go for offerings like this, especially for HS age students.

Lynn, I believe you are correct. How Lakeside uses its points should be a Lakeside community decision. If other schools want to offer this and there is sufficient demand, they can use their points accordingly. Who knows, perhaps they could share a resource with another school.

Patti, this article had several good blog topic ideas. I’ve run into parents who are foregoing band because the booster fees are becoming too high. Though independent of the school, some booster clubs can easily run half a million dollars or more through their treasury. The other idea is the fact that their lunch costs may be going up may impact some household budgets. Maybe a discussion on who still eats lunches in schools.

By Blah.

April 28, 2006 02:32 PM | Link to this

Languages are only as useful as you make them. I in favor of exposure to varying languages (Romance, Asian, Germanic, Slavic) from an early age, even if the entire country is going to learn Spanish in the most far-reaching act of pandering I’ve seen in a while.

By teach overseas

April 28, 2006 02:40 PM | Link to this

I have always found it astounding how many parents kick and claw their child’s way into special/private/magnet schools and then fight to change the very things that make them special. (High standards, language requirements, communitity or parental service requirements.) Getting into Kittridge is something and the child is learning something unique. No, most of the kids will probably never speak fluent German- but it is not time wasted.

There is nothing wasted in learning a foreign language and no matter how may years one studies it in school- mastery and fluency will only come with some type of immersion program. (A study abroad) Once you learn how to learn a foreign language- others will quickly follow.

By luvs2teach

April 28, 2006 02:59 PM | Link to this

teach overseas - your comment “Once you learn how to learn a foreign language- others will quickly follow.” was so true - I went right to Spanish II, because of my foundation in French, and Portuguese is coming far easier than it might to a complete novice.

It also helps you understand English better, because of the focus on grammar rules and word choice as well as the exposure to cognates.

By Sara

April 28, 2006 03:10 PM | Link to this

As has already been stated, learning to learn has merit in it’s own right. I teach French, and I know that not all of my students are going to major in French or even work in a context where it is spoken. That said, the Department of Labor says that more companies request French speakers than Spanish or German speakers. Go to Monster.com and search for jobs with “French” as the key word… you’ll be amazed! (You’ll also find jobs in the French Quarter and at French restaurants, but oh well…. :)

But again, I still have lots of parents who ask me why their child should learn French or who are convinced that my class isn’t important to their child’s future. Yes, it is. My students reinforce English grammar when they study French grammer; they are learning geography (a sorely lacking function of most students)when we study Francophone countries; they are learning to be good citizens when we send Christmas cards to Haitian orphans. And most importantly, like most language students, they are learning to open their minds and think.

By LHK

April 28, 2006 03:15 PM | Link to this

I think second-language learning (and proper first-language learning), no matter what the language, is a vital part of students’ academic development. It energizes the logic-oriented part of the brain more than the creative side, it helps students learn to recognize and analyze patterns, and it emphasizes the importance of precision. It helps students’ math and English skills without them even realizing it — a good thing for students who may not be enthused about English or math. I think the addition of Chinese would be a great thing, partially because it’s so difficult and potentially frustrating. Today’s students spend a lot of time (too much time, in my opinion) not being frustrated.

I’m a student of several languages (Spanish, Japanese, Arabic), and when I work on them I feel like I’m working parts of my brain that are usually pretty creaky during my usual work week.

By Dan

April 28, 2006 03:47 PM | Link to this

Any language is a good idea, although French is quickly losing it’s relevance to anything on a global scale it is better than nothing. I suspect learning Chinese would be a strong skill to have but I wonder if due its having completely different roots than the latin based languages it would be too difficult for grade school

By Brett "the Hitman" Hart

April 28, 2006 03:50 PM | Link to this

If they dont know English to hell with them. Learn some Klingon.

By Erica

April 28, 2006 03:51 PM | Link to this

LHK - your comments reminded me of sth that is a little off topic but close enough. Re grammar, the gifted teacher in my child’s school told me that he couldn’t see why kids need to know grammatical terminology. He thinks that children are wasting their time when they learn terms like gerund or possessive pronoun. It was everything in me not to run away screaming and pulling my hair out. Instead I just stood there and stared blankly because I was so completely stunned - stupid me.

IMO, grammatical rules and terminology are essential to becoming a literate adult. I agree with the posters that write that learning any language helps with grammar and style in English.

By BPJ

April 28, 2006 04:09 PM | Link to this

Moi, je suis heureux que j’ai etudié le francais, parce que j’ai marié une francaise! Meaning: I’m glad I studied french, because I married a wonderful French woman. I can communicate with her family, and participate in raising our daughter bilingual. You never know what language study can lead to!

By Joe

April 28, 2006 04:20 PM | Link to this

First they need to master their native language. Be is not an active verb.

By Angelique

April 28, 2006 04:28 PM | Link to this

I think the top 3 languages should be English, Mandarin (Chinese) and Spanish. The language for the Chinese culture is Mandarin not Chinese. You dont hear people in other countries say do you speak American. We also need to educate ourselves culturally.

By SET

April 28, 2006 04:48 PM | Link to this

The urban students have to learn to conjugate the verb “to be” before they can take Chinese. Then there’s (English) spelling and vocabulary to learn - Exactly who is going to enroll in a Chinese class in an urban school district? The Vietnamese? They’d take other classes first and so would most everyone else.

Besides, you have to know Spanish now (In CA) to get a job in food service which is a major employer of High School students…

By Karen Armsby

April 28, 2006 04:49 PM | Link to this

I took Spanish in high school, had a great teacher, learned how to conjugate verbs, learned grammar and vocabulary and although I have never lived in a Spanish speaking community, I can understand the Spanish spoken on Telemundo, and by folks riding Marta, and shopping in Wal-Mart and the grocery stores. I have heard many rude comments about me and people around me, and they were arrogantly thinking I din’t understand, UNTIL I spoke to them! LOL, I loved the look on their faces!

My daughter is studying in Paris for the second time, and when I made my second visit this year I found I understood a great deal more French this time, and I know my limited Spanish helped me figure out the French. IMHO learning any foreign launguage helps learning more languages.

By LHK

April 28, 2006 05:04 PM | Link to this

Erica - So true! And it’s sad that a lot of kids would need an English grammar review before learning a foreign language. Once they start a foreign language in middle or high school, they may not have heard such terms as “present progressive” or “past perfect” in years and years.

Angelique — I work for a translation company and we use “Chinese” to mean the written Chinese language, and “Mandarin” and “Cantonese” to denote the two most commonly spoken dialects. Though you are right that American kids learning Chinese would almost certainly be learning the Mandarin dialect.

By Molly

May 1, 2006 08:29 AM | Link to this

Lynn D wrote “As to german at Kittridge, it was part of the high achiever magnet program because German was considered the language of business way back when.”

Back when I was in college, computer programmers learned Basic and Fortran. To me, the German requirement at Kittredge is the equivalent of requiring today’s students to learn the programming language of 20 years ago. Certainly, it has some limited use, but the time and resources could be much better used by studying a language with more current applications.

By will

May 1, 2006 08:34 AM | Link to this

i think that it’s awesome that a georgia school is offering chinese. many people think that it is just sooo complicated because of the tones and everything, when in reality, it is one of the most grammatically simple languages on this planet. this would also be good for the students to learn chinese because it is the most spoken language in the world, and also being bilingual can open a student up to a world of opportunities after graduation

By Fae Kelley

May 1, 2006 08:47 AM | Link to this

Since our CRCT and SAT scores are lacking, the language on which we should be focusing is standard English. Is this not the language of the textbooks, the test directions and the tests themselves. How can students of any nationality (including red-blooded American) be expected to do well if they are unfamiliar with the language of the text and test materials. Standard English should be the language of the classroom for teachers, aides and students. Play time and free time belong to the student.

By meme

May 1, 2006 09:13 AM | Link to this

So which of the Chinese languages will they be teaching?

By coweta resident

May 1, 2006 10:20 AM | Link to this

“While I’m all for challenging education in public schools, exactly who do they think will enroll in Chinese Classes? This sounds like a gimmick. If things are going so well in that school district that they have time and energy for this they must be doing well indeed.”

Yes, Coweta County does have a wonderful school system and is doing well! It is evidenced in the fact that our school board members are willing to take the time and energy to broaden the foreign language program. No gimmicks there!