Get Schooled

By V for Vendetta

April 26, 2006 08:29 AM | Link to this

I think an “unschooled” kid just showed up here at my school. He was “homeschooled” by his mother (a suprisingly well-spoken lady who had a decent job). He had roughly a 3rd grade reading level, math abilities, and reasoning potential. He could not only not function in a regular high school class, he could not even BEGIN to function in the technical classes and ended up having to be placed in a mentally disabled class (even though clinically, he wasn’t). So forgive me if I don’t jump on the “unschooling” (or homeschooling) bandwagon for that matter.

By luvs2teach

April 26, 2006 08:35 AM | Link to this

V - You know the one guy who ruins it for everyone else? Or the one guy who makes everyone else look bad? I think you just met him!

By Karen Armsby

April 26, 2006 08:44 AM | Link to this

I think I talked to an ‘unschooled’ girl and mom in the checkout line at the grocery store two weeks ago. The mom alluded to a study that said all the knowledge you need is contained in 92 hours of reading, or something like that (yikes!). I was alarmed but wished them good luck… Here’s what I found about it:

Classic Gatto: http://www.cantrip.org/gatto.html

Llewellyn, G. (1991). The teenage liberation handbook. Eugene, OR: Lowry House. ISBN: 0-9629591-7-0

Llewellyn, G., & Silver, A. (2001). Guerilla learning: how to give your kids a real education with or without schools. New York: John Wiley & Sons, Inc. ISBN: 0-471-34960-7

Griffith, M. (1998). The unschooling handbook: how to use the whole world as your child’s classroom.Rocklin, CA: Prima Publishing. ISBN: 0-7615-1276-4

By Leia

April 26, 2006 09:06 AM | Link to this

There is an unschooled child on my daughter’s softball team. The mom allows “Heather” to choose what she wants to learn and when! If she doesn’t want to do math on Monday - she doesn’t have to! Heather’s older sister attempted public high school and lasted 2 weeks. “Janna” realized that she was so far behind, that the school didn’t know where to place her. So, both kids (who are very nice girls) are back at home being “unschooled.” Mom insists that she is doing the right thing and thinks her daughters will be successful in life despite what she’s doing to them.

By Confused

April 26, 2006 09:13 AM | Link to this

How can this be legal?

By Gwyneth

April 26, 2006 09:17 AM | Link to this

“thinks her daughters will be successful in life despite what she’s doing to them.”

What is her definition of successful? What is your definition of successful? I would guess that they are not the same.

What is your definition of “an education”? That a child learn exactly what all the children in “government schools” are learning? Or something different?

I believe that the answers to these types of questions must be understood before you can understand unschooling.

(I am a homeschool parent, though I would not classify our learning path as strictly unschooling.)

By Karen Armsby

April 26, 2006 09:23 AM | Link to this

It appears that unschooling is just a looser homeschooling, the parent or child or both determine the ‘curriculum.’ And how much oversight does the state practice now over homeschooled students? Do they visit the homes and check on curriculum and progress of students? If not, then the unschooled homeschooled kids are in the same boat as the organized curriculum homeschooled kids.

By Teach

April 26, 2006 09:27 AM | Link to this

I actually bought one of Gatto’s books once… now I use it for toilet paper. The funny thing is, his work won’t even hold crap!

By MMM

April 26, 2006 09:31 AM | Link to this

I know a parent who pulled one child out after 1st grade to homeschool(left the other on in). I would see her in the grocery store and she came down to the capital to do some lobbying with me with the child in tow. She never quite managed to come up with a “plan” and got into more and more mental battles with the child. We eventually influenced her to put the child back into school. I wouldn’t call this intentionally unschooled—but the rationalizations she used for awhile sounded a bit like that.

By Karen Armsby

April 26, 2006 09:31 AM | Link to this

Gwyneth, I think Leia had an excellent point about being successful. I think we are talking about successfully continuing education past high school or getting a job and keeping it. If the girl was so far behind the high school curriculum that the school didn’t know where to place her and she was withdrawn, then I would say she was largely UN-educated. Forget college, her lack of education means she may not even be successful in a minimum wage job! I guess that is what one can expect from UN-schooling, UN-educated!

By Danielle

April 26, 2006 09:32 AM | Link to this

I’ve seen many of these “unschooled” kids with poor social skills. As adults, in a real world job, they won’t be able to do what they want when they want to do it. I am a special ed. high school teacher (behavior problems) and I can tell you that the kids come in late because they didn’t want to get out of bed. They don’t shower or change clothes, because they don’t want to. Most of my time is spent teaching appropriate social skills and personal hygiene. I can only imagine what the unschooled kids must be like. UGH… I guess they are the ill behaved kids in public places… you know, the ones with no manners.

By Gwyneth

April 26, 2006 09:47 AM | Link to this

Karen, I think you are being quite judgmental without substantiation. A child can and will learn without being force fed. In fact, I believe most children, when surrounded by ample books, freedom and opportunities will do better than they would if forced to learn topics when they are not ready.

Does education past high school make one person more successful than someone who has not gone past high school? And why must higher education be started at 18? I would say that if someone is suited to college level work (not all people are even if they’ve completed government high school), then they will be able to “catch up” when they’ve decided that they would like to enroll.

I think the one path concept is a damaging one, which encourages people to think inside the box. Please expand your mind and let it open up to new ideas.

Again, I see your definition of successful as your definition, not a globally accepted one.

By Jo

April 26, 2006 09:56 AM | Link to this

I have pretty much unschooled my three daughters their whole life. When they hit high school age, they each decided to get accredited. Georgia has a way to homeschool and still recieve accredidation. Prior to highschool we occasionally did “school work”, which seemed to interfer with their learning. Mostly they studied what and when they wanted. My oldest is in college and has maintained the HOPE scholarship. She has even been on the Dean’s list a few times. She currently works for Pizza Hut and has been asked to become a manager. My middle daughter has applied and been accepted by two colleges. One accepted her into the Honors program. My youngest wanted to try public high school to see what it was like. She attended the first half of the 9th grade, grew bored and dropped out(when back to homeschool thank goodness). She make all A’s except one grade of 87, and she was in two honors classes and one AP class. Most unschoolers do better than those who use a curriculum. I would like to point out that their are a lot of “school” children who are doing as poorly as the examples cited. As usual, most people who rescond to most things are the nay sayers and complainers.

By Karen Armsby

April 26, 2006 10:05 AM | Link to this

Gwyneth, I was replying to your question about “what is successful” and I gave you my opinion, which is an idea formed by my judgment. You are entitled to your opinion too. And Gwyneth, I was commenting on what Leia said, and Leia is a teacher who posts on here regularly and I respect her opinions and judgment. I think that’s enough substantiation for an opinion forum. We are not at an educational conference presetning papers are we?

So Gwyneth, what is the global definition of education, let’s hear it! FYI you don’t know me, my kids, my education or my thinking ability outside or inside of any box, so be careful judging me personally. Let’s stick to the topic, OK?

By Karen Armsby

April 26, 2006 10:12 AM | Link to this

Jo, Did you have a plan (of learning) that you followed, if not a defined curriculum? Learning is a give and take between teacher and student, so it appears that you are a very good teacher as your children learned well and are successful now. I think without a plan or curriculum, most unschooling parents would not be as successful as you have been. Just the word, UNSCHOOLED, by all appearances is so free form, that unless the parents are very bright and/or organized, then the child will not learn all that is needed.

By Gwyneth

April 26, 2006 10:17 AM | Link to this

Karen - stating “I guess that is what one can expect from UN-schooling, UN-educated! ” is a very judgemntal remark. Okay, it is your opinion, but I think that it is a very close-minded one. In addition, my point, if you read carefully, is that there is no global definition of being successful or being educated.

I believe that I am completely on topic. If you are going to judge unschoolers on narrow definitions, then my explaining that there is a way to “think outside the box” is perfectly reasonable.

By Leia

April 26, 2006 10:20 AM | Link to this

OK - I need to make this quick, since the bell is about to ring! My definition of successfuly is having a student prepared to either attend college (if she chooses to) or enter the workforce and be able to take care of herself. The girls I was speaking about are being “abused” in my opinion because they are so potentially gifted and their mother is not equipped to let them blossom. She is an educated woman, but, she is not qualified to teach them EVERY subject!

If I allowed my daughters to choose their curriculum, we’d learn how to download music onto our iPods all day!

By Gwyneth

April 26, 2006 10:30 AM | Link to this

Leia - perhaps you could exapnd your definition of successful (at the very minimum) to be that the students are able to prepare themselves for college if and when they are inclided to attend such an institution?

By Karen Armsby

April 26, 2006 10:32 AM | Link to this

Gwyneth, Again, I was commenting on Leia’s example of her friend’s daughter who tried high school and was so far behind that she withdrew. Her unschooling did result in her being uneducated relative to her peer group in high school. Good luck to her catching up no matter how long it takes her!

Gwyneth, You made a lot of assumtions from my initial comments on Leia’s post and your post. You said that my opinion is not a globally accepted one, and I was simply asking you WHAT is the globally accepted opinion?

Personally I think there is always more than one way to skin a cat, and I enjoy learning about all kinds of education issues in this blog. I am not a teacher, just interested in education.

Have a nice day.

By SET

April 26, 2006 10:32 AM | Link to this

I am a believer in school choice but not for everyone. Some people are unfit to be allowed to be near children, and some are unfit to raise children or animals.

When children are encountered with “poor hygene” at an age when they are shockingly out of step with their cohort - and there is no explanation such as retardation - a child abuse/child neglect report should be made to police and to Child Protective Services.

I stress reporting to both agencies because the CPS does not have the data files that the local police have and in such cases the combination of the two agencies may be needed to understand what is happening. Is Mommy a dope fiend? Is Mommy mentally Ill? Most of these situations have no fathers, just Mommy’s boyfriends.

Likewise reporting is indicated when you encounter a child that is just plain neglected, abandoned, left to fend for themselves, etc. Some of the social problems spoken of beging to get into the realm of neglect. It shouldn’t take much for a mandated reported to decide if the gulf between this child and the typical product of the public school is so wide that you have reason to believe neglect is occurring.

I expect home-schooled children to be no lower than the low performance of the ghetto public school. Anything less bears investigation. This is what you have CPS for.

In CA we have a major Methamphetamine problem that is worse than the Crack Cocaine problem we thought was so bad. The first thing that happens when Mommy and her boyfriends get onto Meth is that the kids have to fend for themselves - then fend off rapists, molestors, violence, etc. After a short while you learn to see the signs. But maybe these problems haven’t reached you yet.

All druggies lie like hell. Manufactoring some nonsense about homeschooling the kid is just one more lie. If the kid is turning feral what do you really think is going on?

If you encounter kids that are neglected and damaged write the best (most detailed) referral you can, turn it in and move on to your other duties.

By Gwyneth

April 26, 2006 10:40 AM | Link to this

Karen - “You said that my opinion is not a globally accepted one, and I was simply asking you WHAT is the globally accepted opinion?”

I will reiterate my opinion: “that there is no global definition of being successful or being educated”

thus please take care in your judgement and blanket statements regarding unschooling.

By Leia

April 26, 2006 10:43 AM | Link to this

Jo said - “Most unschoolers do better than those who use a curriculum. “

Do you know where I could see some evidence to support this claim? If this is true - I’d like to present it to my department at the next meeting. Lord knows, I will do anything to get my students to learn math!

By Karen Armsby

April 26, 2006 10:53 AM | Link to this

Leia, I was a GED test Examiner in the late 80’s and early 90’s. We kept track of statistics of test takers, like what grade did they drop out of school, or if they were homeschooled, what curriculum program they used. Almost all of the homeschoolers who followed a published homeschool curriculum aced the test. Homeschoolers who had no curriculum (unschoolers?) did not fare as well and often failed the test on the first go around, simply because they were not prepared in specific subject areas. I think homeschool programs that use a defined curriculum are the way to go. Unschooled programs with a free form approach would require a very bright and attentive parent and child to succeed.

By Gwyneth

April 26, 2006 11:06 AM | Link to this

Karen, may I humbly point out that again you are using a metric for success that is defined by the government (GED) and may not be what Jo (obviously I can’t speak for her) uses as a metric for success.

By Karen Armsby

April 26, 2006 11:24 AM | Link to this

Gwyneth, I am a lifelong learner and agree with you that different people learn at different rates. I went back to school at the age of 40. But what we are discussing here is the education of children, not adults. In our country we have undertaken to educate our children in public, private and homeschool programs, with successes and failures in each system. When the children become adults we guage success in part by their ability to either go on for higher education, enroll in a vocational training program, or to get a job. We measure our young adults’ success by their ability to move out of the parents’ home, keep a job and advance, earn enough money to pay their bills like rent, car and health insurance, food, clothing, and start a family and support them if they wish. Therefore, if a child at the high school graduation age of 17 or 18 cannot pass a graduation test, cannot score well enough on an SAT to be admitted to college, or cannot get and keep a job that will pay their bills, then I think most people in America would agree with me. As to the rest of the world, I don’t know.

By Robert

April 26, 2006 11:27 AM | Link to this

I would expect that home schooled students, like public education students, have their successes and failures.

My concern is that the home schooled (or unschooled) students are really at the mercy of the parents decisions. If the parents are on-the-ball and good, then home schooling might be exellent. However, IMHO, if the parents were on-the-ball and good, then they would have also been involved if they had sent their child to a public school.

Poorly prepared parents (or parents without time to do it properly) trying to home school is the worst of all possible options for any student.

By Gwyneth

April 26, 2006 11:32 AM | Link to this

Karen - That’s your definition of success again. Arguing that it is what the majority of people in this country believe (I don’t agree with a lot of things that the “majority” believes) does not convince me that it has to be my definition of success.

By Gwyneth

April 26, 2006 11:37 AM | Link to this

And I would also state that I believe (and I have no data to back this up, I admit) that most unschooled children will be successful in what it is they want to be successful in. Many times that will coincide with your definition of success, but other times it won’t.

Unschooled does not equal uneducated. Not even close. This was the statement that you made that really upset me.

By Karen Armsby

April 26, 2006 11:39 AM | Link to this

Gwyneth, I hope you find success with your beliefs.

By Gwyneth

April 26, 2006 11:46 AM | Link to this

Karen - As I said before, we are NOT unschoolers. It is not what works best for us. And yes, I have found tremedous success with my beliefs. I know that I don’t need a big house or a fancy car to feel that I am an important person. And so onn..

I am also willing to keep an open mind for others to find their success without my judging them. I will do my absolute best to think outside the box. I hope that I have perhaps widened your box to include some new ideas about what homeschooing and unschooling can be. If not, I’m sorry that I have not been articulate enough to expand your understanding.

By me

April 26, 2006 11:46 AM | Link to this

Gwyneth: I’m not going to be as nice as Karen. What planet do you come from and what are you talking about?

By Gwyneth

April 26, 2006 11:53 AM | Link to this

Dear me - I know better than to try to discuss anything with someone who has a completely closed mind.

By me

April 26, 2006 12:01 PM | Link to this

I’m in no way closed minded. You are just vague about what it is you believe. All you have said so far is that you believe the opposite of what most everyone else does.

By Madeline

April 26, 2006 12:09 PM | Link to this

I am an unschooled teenager. Recently I took the PSAT and scored higher than 71% sophmores as a freshman. I was only recently taken out of school but, I feel that even if I had never going to school for a day i would have scored as high or higher. As far as unschooling goes I think that it depends on the child, not the parent. If the child gets no joy out of learning new things then, it will be a struggle for the parent to even attempt to teach. I will admit that even though I spent 9 years in school only about 10% of what I know comes from that time spent in school. I read a book a day. Not all of it is “educational reading” but, I read every day, and that is where 90% of my knowledge comes from.

By Patti Ghezzi

April 26, 2006 12:15 PM | Link to this

Hi Madeline, just curious, what are some of the books you are reading?

By meme

April 26, 2006 12:18 PM | Link to this

IMHO, my unschooled children have trouble succeeding in life. My one personal experience came with a young lady who was trying to get a job at the fudge place where my niece was the manager. After 5 days (training was usually 3 days) this young lady had not learned what to do in the job. She kept taking breaks and not attempting to learn what she needed to know. When she was terminated, her mother actually came up to the job and demanded that they rehire her daughter. Of course, my niece (the doctor now) was smart enough not to rehire her.

By jim d

April 26, 2006 12:22 PM | Link to this

I think that a few bloggers here today are forgetting that some students will fall through the cracks regardless of what type of education they are failing to receive.

Just like all students don’t learn at the same rate, they won’t all respond to the same type of schooling.

What I find fascinating though is that it appears, some that would hold homeschooling parents the most accountable are some of the very ones that scream the loudest when we discuss holding public educators accountable for results. It occurs to me that the argument so often given by professional educators about not being given students that all have the same abilities would also apply to parents attempting to homeschool as well.

Let us remember that we may owe these homeschool parents a thank you for keeping kids home that would have fallen through the cracks of the public education system as well, making all the arguments against public education even stronger and costing us even more in taxes.

By meme

April 26, 2006 12:35 PM | Link to this

Good for you, Madeline. I am an avid reader too and firmly believe that I leaned more from just reading than I did from a lot of my schooling. I actually read a set of encyclopedia when I was in junior high because those were the only books we had in our house. You are so right about the self-motivation of the child. Without that, there would be little learning.

By Decaturparent

April 26, 2006 01:29 PM | Link to this

Re unschooling - this whole idea of a kid growing up thinking that they can do what they want when they want sort of gives me the creeps. Reagardless of your definition of success, any young adult in any society needs to have some sort of job to support themselves. Even if the job is their dream job, there is going to be some aspect of the job or the education required to be able to perform the job that the young adult is going to find tedious or otherwise distasteful. It’s just the way the world works.

It seems that a kid who has never had to tackle something that they don’t like would have an awfully hard time holding down any sort of paying job.

Even the broadest definition of success requires that you be able to survive independently. Find me one person in the world that does not include independent survival in the definition of success and I will eat my hat.

If you do what you want when you want all the time, you cannot hold down a job that will allow you to survive independently. There may be very successful “unschoolers,” but I bet that if you looked closely, you (and they) would be surprised to discover, looking back, that they didn’t really, truly unschool.

By penguinmom

April 26, 2006 01:33 PM | Link to this

I think that in order for unschooling to be successfuly, the parent has to model a lifelong love of learning. If the parent isn’t excited about learning new things then it will be very hard for them to instill a love of learning in their students.

I do wish that individual cases didn’t taint people’s views of all homeschoolers. There are a lot fewer homeschool students than public school students so the individual ‘bad apples’ can seem to make up a bigger percentage. No school or educational system would want to be judged just on the worst case scenarios. Especially when that is not balanced by the best case scenarios. All the homeschool parents I currently know are striving to provide a good education for their children. Are there going to be some parents out there who are being lazy and don’t educate their kids? Yes. Just like there are a few teachers who just pass the kids on through because teaching is just a job to them.

By penguinmom

April 26, 2006 01:40 PM | Link to this

Danielle said: “I’ve seen many of these “unschooled” kids with poor social skills.”

As far as behavior, I’ve met some homeschool kids who are rude and loud but they would have been that way no matter what education they had because their parents are not training them up well. Most homeschool children I know, my own included, get compliments on their behavior when they are in public. Also, it is often noted how well-spoken they are and how comfortable they are with adults. But, just like all students, homeschool students come in all varieties: shy, out-going, smart, slow, polite, rude, compliant and strong-willed. And just like all parents, homeschool parents can be distant and oblivious or involved and caring. I think it’s a bit harder to be oblivious when you’re with your kids all day but I know there are those out there who are.

By meme

April 26, 2006 01:49 PM | Link to this

Penguinmom, I wish as a teacher I had the power to keep a student back. Many times I have wanted one to be held back because the refused to work. I (and many teachers) are overruled by the administration who just want to pass the kids through the system. Many excuses are used. “He is too old to be in the 6th grade.” “Do you really think that holding him back will make him work any harder”? These are just a couple of excuses I have heard.

By penguinmom

April 26, 2006 01:57 PM | Link to this

meme, I understand that it is not always the teacher’s choice. Politics gets into everything you do.

I try really hard not to paint how teachers work with a broad brush. I think it must be incredibly hard to teach 20+ students of varying skills. It takes hard work, patience, skill and determination. In the same way, I wish all homeschoolers would not be painted with a broad brush based on one or two examples. No group is without it’s aces and it’s duds. No one wants their whole group to be judged on the basis of their worst peer.

By SET

April 26, 2006 02:20 PM | Link to this

I’ve seen the discussion between Gwyneth and Karen. I agree largely with Karen.

Unschooled children may just be the chronically truant offspring of the drug addicted and the mentally ill (which CA is mass producing). There needs to be a mechanism to prevent such mothers from hiding their welfare kids from government surveilance.

Perhaps mandatory registration of homeschools and forced participation in the same testing we require of the public school kids? At least the math/verbal tests.

We have lots of women who would like to hide their children away so that no one could rescue the children from the degeneracy going on in the home of a (methamphetamine or insert other drug name here) user. Living in such a home radically increases the rate of child molest/abuse. The public schools (with mandatory abuse reporting) is usually how the cat gets out of the bag.

It’s a power and control thing. Druggies and Crazies like to have it. The kids are worth their weight in pot with child support and welfare - so the mothers want to keep them around while spending as little on them as possible. If the schools weren’t feeding the kids we’d have a lot more “homeschooling” around here.

Despite this I’d like to maintain the possibility of homeschooling, just not by society’s losers.

By penguinmom

April 26, 2006 02:40 PM | Link to this

Set, since you don’t live in GA you probably are not aware of the laws regarding homeschoolers in our state.

Homeschoolers must file an intent to homeschool letter with their county within 30 days of starting to homeschool their children. Monthly attendance must be submitted by the 5th of every month. Testing is required every 3 years after the 3rd grade. A year end report must be written and maintained on file by the homeschooler.

I find it difficult to imagine that all 3000 children in Gwinnett who are homeschooled live with druggies. I would suspect that perhaps 10 percent of those children are unschooled. Again, it’s unlikely that 300 children in Gwinnett are unschooled because they live with meth-addicts. While there may be some rare cases of abuse that cause the parents to keep their kids home, I suspect most drug addicts are perfectly happy to have their kids gone for several hours during which the addicts can get high without interuption.

By Decaturparent

April 26, 2006 03:23 PM | Link to this

Penguinmom- I’ve always wondered… what’s to keep a parent from falsifying the attendance log? Actually, I think that a true unschooler would be hard pressed to have a log with the required amount of “school time” without a lot of “creative entries.” How do unschoolers document their time? Who determines what is “school time” and what is playing in the mud?

Also, what are the common standardized tests used by homeschoolers in third grade and up? If the kid “fails” the test miserably, is there a body that can investigate the situation to determine if the failure is due to some disability on the kid’s part or due to the parent not bothering to teach their kid what they need to know? Can a court order a “homeschooled kid” to attend a school if they find that they are not being educated?

I’m against government oversight as a theory, but it seems important to weed out the parents who are just using homeschooilng as a way to get away with abuse or neglect.

By Lori

April 26, 2006 03:45 PM | Link to this

My 2 cents are this - if you are not an “unschooler” Patti wasn’t intending on hearing from you…..

Off to work on our family’s homeschool. I cannot comment as I am not an unschooler. Only they know best what their days are like….

By SET

April 26, 2006 04:01 PM | Link to this

PenguinMom: Thanks for the info about the establishment rules for homeschooling…

I have not lived outside of California so my direct experience with the regional differences is limited to reading and listening to people here who have lived around the USA, and occasional travels east a week or two at a time.

I recently spent a week in the DC area. I saw a number of things that you don’t see here in Northern CA. We do have really nice freeways though.

I think our state is some kind of experiment. But it’s been going on several generations. Maybe things are better in the schools in your region. Look out for California trends spreading east! Our (Public School) teachers are on the front lines of a lot of social problems, such as the Meth epidemic, that may not have been fully experienced in the Eastern US. Some of our problems express themselves with kids not staying in class because they don’t want to answer questions about what is happening to them.

By MrLiberty

April 26, 2006 04:45 PM | Link to this

It is amazing how easily you folks can come up with any way to bash that which you do not know or are afraid of.

There are plenty of states that require even less than Georgia does as far as homeschooling is concerned, and that’s even better for the students. While government schools fail, and government at all levels fails to deliver even the most basic of its services, you folks continue to think that they should be the folks dictating policy to parents who are inherently more interested in the well-being of their kids than the government ever will be. For a state that is routinely in the bottom five nationally to be telling parents what they must teach their kids and how they must teach them is the height of supreme arrogance. For you people to demand more government takeover of this wonderful alternative to government indoctrination only shows how scared you are about how well these kids are actually doing compared to your kids.

As for the clown that wants to paint un-schooling as the product of the growing meth problem in this country, you are the lowest. Virtually every parent in our old subdivision in Suwanee was disgusted at the prospect of homeschooling because they couldn’t wait to get rid of their kids for the day. I’ll take a meth addict parent any day. At least with medical care they can be back being a good parent again. “Parents because we’re supposed to be” can never be helped, and that is the worst kind of child abuse if you ask me.

Anyone with half an education of history, human behavior or economics knows that the primary problems associated with meth could all be solved with the legalization of all drugs. Prohibition, not drug use, is the plague on our society. Home labs would not exist if you could buy from CVS at far lower cost, and opting for medical treatment would be far more likely without the legal penalties hanging over one’s head. (but I don’t want to detract from the uninformed bashing you are giving to the unschooling movement).

Why are you all so afraid of the unknown? Especially when the current system has been failing kids for SO LONG !

By Mom of ten

April 26, 2006 05:27 PM | Link to this

I am sorry ladies, but you seem to think unschooling is ‘not’ schooling. Unschooling is not using a set curriculum or program. It is using a variety of programs, books, tools and practical daily application of learning aobut the world around us as well as finding a love of history from media, books and discussion. It means schooling all day long. It means taking time out when it is needed and not forcing the child to sit all day until we say go and run for an hour before doing more work. It means working with your hands, and making learning play. My children find delight in learning. My 14 year old would have been lost in Public school because he would have been diagnosed ADHD and they would have insisted that I drug him to make him setle. He tests two grades ahead in most subjects and now can focus himself on any task unlike when we began. My 10 year old would not be able to work on his level (he tests 4 grades ahead in almost everything) and would have been held back by working in a classroom setting. As it is he can move forward as quickly or slowly as he needs. This does not mean that they do not school. It means we use the resources we feel best at any given moment and we are able to be flexible and work to the child’s strengths.

For example. My 10 year old still struggles to put words neatly on paper. If I demanded that he be able to do so right now he would begin to hate writing instead of being able to think so far above his level. His writing has been gradually improving, but I expect it will take acouple of more years for him to do as well as I hope. On the other hand he is learning to type his thoughts out and can play the piano better than almost all the rest of his siblings. he work diligently at any assignments I give and loves to work independently when he comes to me with a topic of interest, researching and studying on his own.

That Ladies is unschooling. It is very loose, but it is not without structure or form. There are parents out there who are not trying or have become overwhelmed. When this happens they try to not notice or hide what is happening because of the condemnation they receive from educators and parents. I have met a few of these parents and feel sympathy for them. They love their children and are trying to protect them, in the process they are losing. At that point their children would benifit from help and the parents could use encouragement not condemnation when they bring them back to a public setting.

I have a dear friend that has her daughter in public schools and she does very well. My friend does not feel competent to school her child, but stays very involved with her teachers. I have nothing but admiration for this friend. But I also have seen mothers with their children in public school who will not take the time to even discipline their child much less get involved in their child’s school.

As to bad behavoir in public….

I have more parents walk up to me and tell me how impressed they are at how well my children behave and they wished other mothers would learn from me. I ususally have at least 6-8 out with me at one time. I can count on them obeying me without question and helping in everyway needed.

Unschooling does not mean without school or discipline. It means working with the child to make learning fun.

By Karen Armsby

April 27, 2006 08:14 AM | Link to this

I put my self-directed autodidactic learning cap on last night, reread the blog posts, looked up some info, and concluded that I have been unschooling myself my entire life! Who knew?? And I was unschooling my children and never knew that unschooling was the term to use! However, I was unschooling in conjunction with public and private schools, institutions that unschoolers shun. So maybe we were overschooling or multischooling? I was REALLY unschooling in college as I spent more time researching cool stuff in the library than studying for my classes.

Unschooling is home schooling that rejects a structured school curriculum, and is self directed by child or parent in varying degrees depending on the facilitating parent. Unschooling encourages natural learning and discovery and reading a lot, all of which I have done my whole life, and taught my children to do, too! Do I get the T-shirt now?

I’m an advocate for critical thinking, which is also an unschooling concept,“the subject matter is less important than the child learning ‘how’ to learn.” Unschooling is the parental component of education that all of our children need, whether they learn at home or in school.

By meme

April 27, 2006 08:49 AM | Link to this

Mom of ten. It is always so nice to be asked out opinion. We give our opinion and then there is at least one person who berates us and tells us that we are wrong and that we don’t know what we are talking about. I guess it was your turn on this topic. BTW - an opinion is what I think, not what you think I should think.

By meme

April 27, 2006 08:51 AM | Link to this

Lori, IMHO, if Patti only wanted to hear from the Unschooler (I know, I know, I read what she wrote) there would only be a couple of entries.

By Gwyneth

April 27, 2006 09:05 AM | Link to this

Karen - Thank you for your insightful post. I think that perhaps now others will see that there are varied forms of unschooling and it is not as “severe” as it first appears.

I realize now that yesterday I was caught up in semantics and not helping to make the point that I was trying to make. I apologize if I offended you. I was not trying to judge you, but trying to help reduce the judgment of the unschoolers out there. I’m afraid I might have done a poor job of it, unfortunately. I’m sure that if you ad I sat down face-to-face, we would be able to understand each other very quickly.

My main point was that there is more than one way to skin a cat, and there is more than one way to determine what success is. Doing well on the GED may not be a very good metric for gauging future success.

To answer one of the other posts, my idea of success never came into the picture, so of course it was vague. I’m not going to place my current concept (always evolving) idea of success out there for all of you to judge. My children will be well-prepared to face the world out there when the time comes, and I will not have them feel like “total failures” if they make mistakes or fall on hard times along their journeys through life.

By Karen Armsby

April 27, 2006 09:16 AM | Link to this

meme, Mom of ten was unschooling us : ). I would like to inform Mom of ten that all of us blogging and reading are not Ladies, and that there are gentlemen in attendance, too.

Mom of ten, You appear to have the unschooling in hand, and you have created your own little educational institution, what I will call boutique homeschooling.

IMHO, successful unschooling is good parenting, and what other good and smart parents do also, even when they send their kids off to school. You just do it without the support of other educational institutions.

By Karen Armsby

April 27, 2006 09:23 AM | Link to this

Gwyneth, Thanks, no harm done. The blog is a beauty and a beast as we try to share information and then try to explain what we mean in a way that others understand. IMHO a blog is an unschooling process!

By luvs2teach

April 27, 2006 09:50 AM | Link to this

I think there is a difference between “unschooling” and “no structure whatsoever” - kids need some structure - that’s not the teacher in me talking, that’s the parent. Choosing to unschool (letting them pursue their own interests)as mom of ten has done, and simply letting them do whatever they want whenever they want (even if that means sleeping all day)don’t seem to be the same thing nor do they produce the same results.

Conscious choice and active participation are key no matter which route you choose.

For those of you interested, there is a college in Massachusetts based somewhat on the idea of independent study. I would imagine homeschoolers would do well there. Although the school interested me, I chose not ot go because I hadn’t developed the skills and discipline necessary for this approach. It is Hampshire College, and I’ve included a link for those of you interested:

Hampshire College

By Leia

April 27, 2006 09:53 AM | Link to this

Lori - so using your “logic”, homeschoolers and unschoolers shouldn’t be allowed to blog when the topic involves public school education - right?

By SET

April 27, 2006 10:11 AM | Link to this

Hmmm. It’s interesting to see childish insults from supposedly grown men. Their words in writing speak volumes about what they are.

California’s problems with the decline of sections of the population is not the experience of the whole country and probably not directly tied to the home schooling movement nationally.

However relaxing the normal protections for children - schools - allows the problems we see here to get far worse. It’s no secret we have a underclass that transmits their pathology to an ever growing line of decendants. Our public schools used to block that process by ensuring that students got a baseline of education and socialization even if Mommy was a drunk. We wanted our young people to at least qualify for the draft so they could get out of whatever they were born into if they wanted and return later for - a civil service job? (veteran’s preference points)

I have met many workers who came from humble orgins - poverty, broken homes and such, who went into the military and eventually had careers and homes that no one in their families ever had before. A lot of these people were WWII and Korean war. Some went to law school, some did other things.

The underclass of today is so pathological they would be 4F on a military induction exam. I see them get institutionalized (prison and mental facilities).

Although I’m pessimistic about public schools, they built this nation just as much as the Ivy League colleges did. Homeschooling has no such track record and given the reasons why both parents go into the workforce I don’t believe homeschooling is very viable, at least in states such as CA (developed states?)

Mr. Liberty is beginning to remind me of the woman who wants to ban Harry Potter.

It’s fine if an exceptional family is in the right place and time to homeschool. But it will not happen around here. But maybe things are different in the South.

Things are bad enough for the underclass without making it easy or possible to keep their kids out of all schools. We’ve jailed people for this here. I’ve had the pleasure to meeting and talking to these women - I say again the ones I’ve encountered have always been unwed mothers. They are completely irresponsible in every facet of their lives and childraising is no different. Their kids are out of control and they can’t cope or don’t want to. And the kids are 8 or so.

That’s my experience. Maybe things are different in your town.

So the phrase “unschooled” to me means children who are roaming the streets from a young age, criminal, promiscuous, and filthy. And yes, here they try Meth. It’s worse than glue sniffing. Major brain damage. But it’s cheap and has a long high.

By Karen Armsby

April 27, 2006 10:32 AM | Link to this

luvs2teach, You hit the issue, structure and the lack thereof in unschooling. Some unschooling parents (Mom of ten) and kids (madeline) have established their own structure, but I think SET is correct to worry about the free ranging children who have no structure, and their unschooling results in no education.

By meme

April 27, 2006 10:46 AM | Link to this

SET, I was so glad to see your comment. There are some people on this blog that I know ignore because they begin to lecture us and tell us how wrong we are.

By Karen Armsby

April 27, 2006 11:24 AM | Link to this

Mr. Liberty reminds me of the wizard in the original movie of The Wizard of Oz. He puts himself on display, wrathful and self righteous, full of fire and brimsotne, bluff and bluster. If you remember, the Wizard was nothing more than a little man behind a curtain managing a microphone and fire jets. Like that wizard, Mr. L. doesn’t have a dialogue, he preaches and pontificates, denigrates, demeans and insults.

Hopefully, one day Mr. L. will step out from behind that curtain and have a real conversation with us like the wizard in the movie did. He shed his vengeful persona and revealed his humanity and wizdom, and they all lived happily ever after!

By penguinmom

April 27, 2006 11:47 AM | Link to this

Decaturparent, There is really no way to know if a person is filling out their attendance correctly, just as there is no way to know if a parent wrote their kid’s research report. Bad parents are out there. But, most homeschoolers are in it to help their kid’s education not hinder it. Just as good parents are involved in their kid’s schools not using it as a babysitting service. Some unschoolers consider education your life experiences so everything from reading a book (literature) to cooking dinner(math, logic) to taking a trip (geography) can be considered part of your education.

Remember it’s interest based and anyone who has been around young kids know they have an interest in learning how to count their things and in learning about money. They have an interest in being able to decode those books themselves (if they are read to a log). They have an interest in the world around them. The unschooling philosophy says to some extent that the kids only lose that interest when we force those naturally fun topics into workbooks and rote curriculum.

As for the standardized tests, most parents I know use Iowa or Stanford. There are others but those 2 are the most popular. We have to keep the results in our files but the state does not see them. As in any family, if DFACS gets involved in your life, they can take away your kids (indefinitely) and force them to attend a public school. IMHO though, anyone who would sic DFACS on a family just for homeschooling would be an evil person.

Set, the laws in CA actually make it easier to homeschool there. Homeschools there are set up as private schools and therefore have virtually no regulation at all.

By penguinmom

April 27, 2006 11:58 AM | Link to this

Karen, LOL.
btw, based on his drug comment, I assume Mr. Liberty is a libertarian. They usually think any government involvement in any part of our lives is bad.

Personally, I homeschool but I don’t think it’s for everyone. I have friends who do such a poor job of disciplining their kids that I’m glad the little terrors go to school where they have to at least learn to stand in line quietly. I have other friends who would be too stressed if they were the sole educators in their kids lives. I do believe almost anyone who loves their kids is capable of homeschooling in today’s environment of support groups, co-ops, enrichment classes, etc. It does require a committment but it doesn’t require perfect organization or great knowledge. I don’t believe homeschooling is for everyone, I just want people to realize it’s an option they have.

By luvs2teach

April 27, 2006 12:06 PM | Link to this

Penguinmom - you said “Remember it’s interest based and anyone who has been around young kids know they have an interest in learning… [an] interest in the world around them. The unschooling philosophy says to some extent that the kids only lose that interest when we force those naturally fun topics into workbooks and rote curriculum…”

I agree with you to an extent - kids usually are naturally curious, and that natural curiousity can be “workbooked” out of them.

My concern is the kids who, through a combination of bad genes, bad luck, or bad parenting DON’T have that curiosity - they’re out there, and it’s sad. I don’t know what would help them - they’re the ones who fall through the cracks most of the time - no matter what schooling they get.

I imagine some would be what SET refers to as the left side of the Bell curve, but they’re also the product of maternal drug use, child abuse, and neglect.

What would work for them?

By SET

April 27, 2006 12:46 PM | Link to this

As much as I complain about public schools, we have to fix them. Homeschooling can’t reach the large numbers of kids who require structured education because of the parents (if they have parents) both have to work. Private schools won’t stay “private” if we make them educate everybody.

Homeschooling is an option when you don’t have good schools. We need to respect it as an option.

Me, I’d prefer good public & private schools and lots of them. We had them in the 1960’s in CA. Even the all black schools, even the integrated schools, even the ghetto schools. Maybe the solution is less regulation and more choice? Or just neighborhood schools? Or segregated schools (lots of ways to split up a cohort - sex, race, age, class?)

Well one thing I’m sure of is that political correctness is the opposite value of a “good School”. Maybe we should change the mission statement of public schools to something that used to work - “The children shall be kept under stress and severe discipline and upon graduation shall have completed entrance requirements for the military, a trade, or at least Junior College” Something simple like that.

By penguinmom

April 27, 2006 12:56 PM | Link to this

Unfortunately, kids do fall through the cracks in all forms of education. Public schools have the highest number of kids so they have the highest percentage of these problem cases. I’m sure there are private schools and homeschools with kids falling through the cracks also.

I just know that homeschooling is hard enough that most bad parents would give it up after a year or two. It is rewarding but it is not easy. Just like teaching in a formal environment, it takes a lot of time and committment. Most bad parents are too lazy to do anything other than foist their kids off on someone else.

I believe even kids whose curiousity has been crushed through indifferent parents can be re-taught a love of learning. Every kid (no matter what genes or parents) has something they are interested in. If schools had the time to take each individual child and find their interest and use it to spark their learning, the world would be a better place. That can’t happen though and it’s sad for those kids who will never reach their potential.

Well folks, I’ve gotta go practice for our annual recognition night where we let our kids show off what they’ve learned this year. Take care.

By mom2ninjas

April 27, 2006 03:13 PM | Link to this

I am a recent homeschooling mom of two girls. Our girls were in the public school system until just before the Christmas holidays of this year. I was a stay at home mom who was very active in their school. I was room mom for both classes, PTA president, a Substitute Teacher and I would volunteer time to classes even if my children were not in that class.

We were fine with this arrangement until we had a teacher that was just lazy when it came to communicating with the parents. She told us our daughter was slacking off in reading, so we worked with her on that… But she didn’t say anything about Math and my daughter got a D out of nowhere. She was an honor roll student! The teacher said she felt like she knew the material and offered no other insight.

We got the standardized test results back and our daughter aced every subject. Even the math that she received a D for.

Well, on to the next grade and now my daughter doesn’t trust herself with math because she got a grade that no one expected. She would get upset and cry when she felt like she wasn’t getting it and the class was moving ahead anyway. Her teacher was insensitive to her insecurities and what got her to feel this way, and started to diagnose my daughter with ADD! Her doctor has since denied that ADD is a possibility. The teacher just wanted to blame it on something and move on.

So, when we first took our girls out of public school we practiced the “unschooling” approach as we saw fit. We have an established curriculum and we would pick from those subjects. We were more laid back about it and didn’t make the learning process a forced one. The girls responded well to it. They would ask for more and more to do.

Now, we work on subjects 5 days a week and we average 6 hours a day. 6 hours of straight schooling… Compared to public school that has lunch, recess and other down time. Our school is relaxed. We tend to like to go on the back deck and sit on in the sunshine and enjoy the fresh air while we work.

My oldest daughter will take her standardized test next week. We opted to take the Iowa standardized test which is actually harder than the CRCT testing.

I keep accurate records that document everything. Days we school, days we are sick, test days and holidays. I supply report cards and other documents to the proper “authorities”.

I started homeschooling my kids because I didn’t mind the extra work that it was going to create for me. I started homeschooling because I was in my girls’ school enough to see where the system was failing them and I wanted to make education fun for them again. I started to homeschool my girls because I love them more than anything and I wanted more for them than public school can offer.

Some people chose to put their kids in public school and not be involved at all. Some people chose to homeschool their kids and do not do what they should to make it work. These are the parents who could step it up and be more interested in their kids.

Some people chose to put their kids in public school and they support the school system by being involved. Some people homeschool their children because they want to better tailor an educational program to meet the needs of their child.

Do I believe that all teachers are horrible, and that is why I pulled my girls out? NO! We had the best Kindergarten and First grade teachers in the world. I just believe that great teachers are limited by rules put in place by people that are not directly involved with each individual child, and are so out numbered by the student-teacher ratios that they are not able to do what is best for every child.

Bottom line is this: There are great teachers and there are bad teachers. There are parents with their child’s best interests at heart and there are some people who just don’t want to put any effort into there kids. Every group has it’s bad apples.

By luvs2teach

April 27, 2006 03:19 PM | Link to this

Well said, mom2ninjas, well said.

By Sherri

April 27, 2006 04:38 PM | Link to this

We have homeschooled two daughters with a relaxed approach and have often been labeled unschoolers and I can assure you that our children bathe, have appropriate manners and function very well socially. They also complete a planned program of learning each year, but do have a voice in what we study. (Dad and I can over ride poor decisions) It certainly isn’t text books and worksheets but our oldest is currently in the State University system with a 4.0 GPA and our youngest tests well above grade level. I think that anyone who judges any type of home schoolers based on a chance meeting with one or two people who home school is ignorant. What, may I ask, is the difference in judging people of any group? Is it ok to assume all hispanics are criminals because you happen to know one who shoplifted? Or asume that all black people are bad because you see one accused of murder on TV? What about the Judge who drove drunk? Does this make all judges corrupt? Yes, some home school families are lazy and do not have their children’s best interest at heart, but that does not make all home schoolers bad. In our society this is commonly called bigotry.

By Karen Armsby

April 27, 2006 05:03 PM | Link to this

Sherri, If you had read through all of our comments here, you would see a pretty civilized discussion and not any homeschool bashing. We have just been trying to noodle out what unschooling really is, that’s all.

By MrLiberty

April 27, 2006 05:04 PM | Link to this

Karen,

I have had numerous back and forth discussions with people on this and other blogs. Sometimes I have more time to spend and others I don’t. Today I have a moment to read and write.

I have laid out my plan for reforming education immediately based on an end in one year of all government funded schools, an end to school-related property taxes and corporate and personal tax breaks for all who start, run, and finance the education of others.

I will not stop pointing out that government schooling is based on the priciple that it is ok to steal from some people to pay for the education of others. I believe that this is immoral. I will also not stop pointing out that nothing will ever fundamentally change in education in this country until every parent is personally responsible for the education of their child (meaning more specifically that they can take their money (or scholarship, etc.) and walk when they are unsatisfied with the performance of the schoo their child is in.)

Thousands of books have been written about homeschooling, unschooling, separating the government from education, free market alternatives to government funding, etc. I have read a considerable number of them (mostly havning to do with free market alternatives).

I find it very frustrating when I see discussions going on about unschooling where uninformed parents make generalizations about something they know nothing about (nor have even bothered to find anything about) and get away with it simply because only a few posters have direct knowledge of the subject.

You yourself seem to have come to a revelation about the true nature of unschooling and have found that WOW, its just like the natural way folks learn after formal schooling has ended in high school or college. Well, if that’s the case, then why is it so hard to understand that maybe that is a great way for education to be managed from early on? Yes, learning how to read properly does require a certain formality (I mean if you want to make the correct letter sound, you need to actually learn the correct letter sound, etc.) but criticism of the typical teacher up front, kids facing her method of education has been strong for decades (for both private and government schools).

My biggest frustration with discussions on these boards is the lack of focus on the subject. I attempt to answer questions but others choose to change the subject or negatively stereotype. Just not worth the energy sometimes.

As for putting it out there, I ran for State Senate proudly as a Libertarian in California in 1994. I ran openly on the party’s platform of limited government, personal responsibility, and individual liberty.

I have engaged in hundreds if not thousands of face to face discussions with folks on topics from education to the failed war on drugs. And no, most of them were not with fellow Libertarians.

By Karen Armsby

April 28, 2006 08:56 AM | Link to this

Mr. Liberty, Call me uninformed, but the first time I heard of “unschooling” was this week, when Patti posed the question. Get Schooled bloggers are a cross section of society, some informed, some not, but we come to learn from each other. Most of us respect the others’ questions and comments, and we often agree to disagree.

You do not respect us. You think we are stupid and you show contempt for us in your words. Your sarcasm about my ‘revelation’ on unschooling reveals that your arrogance missed my tongue-in-cheek conclusion that good unschooling is just good parenting! Unschooling methods are the same that all smart and involved parents are already using, whether we educate our children in the home, in private schools, or in taxpayer supported (thankyouverymuch) public schools.

Most of us want public schools, want to improve them, and (talk to the hand) we are tired of your rancid rhetoric. Do you behave this badly face to face, or just save your bile for blogging?

By Karen Armsby

April 28, 2006 09:20 AM | Link to this

SET, I agree with you that political correctness (PC) is the opposite value of a good school. A PC fear of lawsuits keeps school admins from holding misbehaving students responsible for their actions. PC administrative decisions force teachers to advance unprepared students to the next grade, ready to fail again. IMHO school administrations should be greatly limited in their control over teachers. We must restore authority to teachers so that they can establish an accountable, disciplined culture of learning in their classrooms.

By mom2ninjas

April 28, 2006 10:22 AM | Link to this

There are a lot of generalizations made in some comments above by people in on “both sides” of the fence.

I stuck to the facts, as the represent my life, in my post above. I feel that this is the best way for people to understand what “unschooling” can mean for different families. However, that is only my opinion.

There is no human on earth who knows everything about everything. If we homeschoolers can present what we know about unschooling without pointing fingers and if those that make generalizations would stop… This discussion could be even more relaxed and informative.

Just a suggestion…

By meme

April 28, 2006 10:33 AM | Link to this

Karen Armsby, you are my hero. I don’t know what he said (I don’t read his rantings anymore) but I am so glad that you responded.

By meme

April 28, 2006 10:38 AM | Link to this

As a teacher of 30+ years, I want to go on record as saying that for some people (IMHO) are perfect for homeschooling. Many public school teachers teach to the lowest student in the class and therefore the better kids sometimes get left out.

By Karen Armsby

April 28, 2006 10:42 AM | Link to this

mom2ninjas, Your comments were very informative, thanks. IMHO people make generalizations based on their own experiences, and their statements are usually not meant to offend! We are coming from different backgrounds and experiences. Instead of listening and talking, people today instantly take offense to statements that don’t match their views. They lash out instead of engaging in a good dialogue. We are not all informed in the same way. We are going to make generalizations, and we need to be kind and civil to each other and discuss the issues, not berate and call names.

By Karen Armsby

April 28, 2006 10:59 AM | Link to this

The more I think about it I have to say that generalizations are the essential element in blogging to promote and provoke discussion. People usually are moved to comment specifically in response to general comments made.

By Mom of ten

April 28, 2006 11:28 AM | Link to this

I think you guys have a handle on what we do now.

Sorry gentlemen for leaving you out in my address, I did not realize how many were on here.

Karen I am impressed with your thought out approach and calm nature.

I will try to check in occasionally, but unless there are specific questions I can help with I do not believe I could add to what you all have given. I can say I find great delight in seeing each of my children grow as they learn and we have developed a bond and understanding of each other that my mother and I never had. There will always be those who do not understand and those who fail to do the job. I think history proves that out. Hopefully, though, we can raise our kids to be productive and help members of society at a level that is currently unusual.

On a side note, I have two stepsons that grew up in the public school system and lived with their mother. Their mother never checked their work, never met with their teachers, and left them alone on weekends. (Why did we not try to take them from her?…We did on a number of occasions and were told by the courts that she was doing fine.)

The 22 year old is currently smoking grass daily and working at a car wash while living with his mother’s mother and drinking every night.

The 20 year old is living on his mother’s husband’s property in a shack with no power, water or anything and not working while driving a car with no insurance, out of date tag and suspended license. He does drugs every chance he gets.

She does not care. They will not live with us because we have rules they must follow (they have said that).

They both got into drugs in public school. The elder son dropped out of High School to do drugs. He has gotten his GED now, But will not stop smoking weed. The younger did graduate, barely. Then he wanted into the Navy…he never passed the drug screen.

I went to private school in Thailand. My husband went to public school in Smyrna. I have taught him about Shakespeare and more history than he knew. I know more Algebra and grammar. His IQ is much higher than mine and I was educated better. this is why I homeschool. It is from personal experience and real concern for my children.

I know this is not always the norm because I have friends who have kids that do well. It is so hard for teachers…good teachers…to meet the needs of so many kids that I would rather give my tax dollars for those that won’t home school and take the burden of schooling my kids on myself.

I find it frustrating that even though we still pay taxes that go to the schools of the counties we are registered in, even though we receive no help from those schools, and are not allowed to participate in their programs, we are always looked at as some how tearing down the system or failing our kids.

I think this is what frustrates home schooling parents the most here.

By Karen Armsby

April 28, 2006 11:39 AM | Link to this

Mom of ten, thanks, and may I say you hit the key issue in our children’s education, good parenting. We have discussed good parenting in many Get Schooled blogs; the importance of parental presence, oversight, involvement, encouragement, training manners, morals and civility, and partnering in the education of their children. Where you have good parenting, kids have a much better chance of success of learning whether it is in un or homeschooling, private school or public school.

By Jim in Marietta

April 28, 2006 11:41 AM | Link to this

Bash away at homeschooling/unschooling, but you will never change the fact that for every single kid not making it as a homeshooler/unschooler there are 100 kids not making it in government schools.

By meme

April 28, 2006 11:44 AM | Link to this

Mom of ten, just curious. What kind of programs have you tried to participate in a the public school? And did they give you a reason why your children could not participate?

By mom2ninjas

April 28, 2006 11:49 AM | Link to this

Karen… I should have been more specific about the generalizations that I was speaking of. The ones that I found to be “unneccessary” where that all/most homeschoolers are in a drug filled environment and rude. This is just simply not true and these remarks could be harmful. Nor is this kind of generalization for the benefit of a healthy debate, it was an attack on something the poster obivously does not understand.

For example only: In the news there is a teacher that is in trouble for continuing to molest her student even after she was arrested for it. If I followed the rational above with my generalizations than I would have to believe that because that one teacher is like that that all teachers are like that. And I do not believe this. That teacher is a plague on the good name of the majority of teachers in the world. If this wrongful generalization got around it could negatively affect the way parents interacted with their teachers and cause undue stress on teachers in general. I would hate for that to happen, so let me make my opinion clear:

My generalization is that most teachers are very admirable and wonderful people.

A negative, uninformed generalization can do more damage than good in my opinion.

I hope I am making sense. I just wanted to address that there are some generalizations that are a healthy part of debate and others which are not.

By meme

April 28, 2006 11:57 AM | Link to this

http://www.unschooling.com/

By Karen Armsby

April 28, 2006 11:57 AM | Link to this

Jim in Marietta, I for one am not bashing homeschooling, I say whatever works for you, go for it! I will take issue with your statements.

First; There are many more kids in public school than are being homeschooled, so naturally the number of public school failures will be much larger.

Second, as good parenting is key to successful learning in kids, and as homeschooling parents devote so much time to teaching their children, it seems reasonable to say that most homeschool parents are also good parents, and their children will realize success in learning.

By luvs2teach

April 28, 2006 12:18 PM | Link to this

Thank you, Karen, for your response to Jim in Marietta - very much my thoughts.

I don’t bash anything that is made as a concious decision as what works best for your family. We are not all alike - our experiences aren’t going to be either, nor should they be.

By Karen Armsby

April 28, 2006 12:23 PM | Link to this

mom2ninjas, I understand what you are saying, but I believe that generalizations are made from the perspective of the one writing the comment, who believes what he or she is writing is supported and justified. And so we debate the issues from our many perspectives!

I think you were referring to SET’s comment, and if you follow his further comments, you will see where he is coming from. Furthermor, Unschooling is not a term I had ever heard before Patti put up this thread, it’s not in my dictionary, and when I looked up unschooled I saw the meanings, “not schooled,” or “not educated.”

I understand now from my own reading and blog comments here that unschooling is a LABEL applied to independently run homeschooling, rejecting both institutional settings and any published school curriculum.

Negative or uninformed generalizations just make us all work harder to support our positive assertions on any issue. That’s communication.

By Karen Armsby

April 28, 2006 01:06 PM | Link to this

luvs2teach, Thanks, and ditto to your comments. Wouldn’t this be a boring world if we were all the same and agreed about everything!

By luvs2teach

April 28, 2006 01:30 PM | Link to this

Karen - LOL - this wouldn’t be ANY fun if we all agreed!

Have a great weekend!

By Madeline

April 28, 2006 02:04 PM | Link to this

I read everything from Like Water for Chocolate to The Catcher in the Rye. Re to Patti Recently I’ve been reading books by Robert Cormier. I’m also a big fan of Sarah Dessen’s books. On a different note, what dissappoints me about Georgia is that I have to be 16 to obtain a GED. I am just about to turn 15 so i have to wait another year before I can grab hold of opportunities that are currently escaping me.

By mom2ninjas

April 28, 2006 02:16 PM | Link to this

Karen,

I don’t believe we should all believe the same things. I just think there should be a little more caution with some generalizations before they are presented.

By Karen Armsby

April 28, 2006 04:21 PM | Link to this

Madeline, Take the SAT, and if you do very well on the SAT apply to college. Many colleges will consider admitting you early, especially if you demonstrate that you have completed your high school curriculum, and are just waitting to take the GED at 16.

By Karen Armsby

April 28, 2006 04:30 PM | Link to this

mom2ninjas, I din’t mean to infer that you think we should all think alike. My point is that one man’s fact is another man’s generalization UNTIL they get together (like here in the blog) and compare experiences, expertise and refine issues and terminology. The problem in a general blog is that depending on where you are coming from words can be confusing, insulting, enlightening or BS! Wordsmiths must have a field day analyzing our conversations!

I do agree that bloggers should take care not to attack others personally by calling them names, denigrating their ideas, and insulting them. Civility should rule the day.

By mom2ninjas

May 2, 2006 02:03 PM | Link to this

Karen,

I justed wanted to make sure that I wasn’t trying to say that we should all think alike as well.

I do agree that bloggers should take care not to attack others personally by calling them names, denigrating their ideas, and insulting them. Civility should rule the day.

I agree with the above 100%.