Get Schooled

By Nikole

April 18, 2006 03:39 PM | Link to this

I saw a principal in APS come in and tell a child to check an answer. There are few monitors from outside the school and they walk around the entire school during testing.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

April 18, 2006 04:12 PM | Link to this

The only way to restrain inside “influence” would be to use an outside firm to monitor testing. That would be costly and not a guarantee cheating would stop. With that said, even the outside monitors could be paid to help our children “who may struggle” – just to keep their monitoring contract for testing the next school year. No body wants to loose out on their job or a contract, so they opt to make our children the losers.

By alice

April 18, 2006 04:35 PM | Link to this

Really, who cares. I am so over this testing (and I am a parent, not a teacher). Our school does have outside proctors (mostly students from nearby colleges) because we don’t have enough support personnel to proctor.

I wish that everyone would just keep their kids home for the next week. I think this is a profound waste of our children’s time.

What has really irritated me is that we have three new students, none of whom speak English who have all arrived within the last month. They have to take the test. It won’t count for AYP or other accountability. But it just illustrates how stupid this state is.

We need a genuine measure of progress. Where a child is when they enter the classroom and where they are when the finish the year. I know, for example, how much my child has gained academically this year. I don’t need a test to tell me this.

By lynn d

April 18, 2006 04:43 PM | Link to this

Patti,

We have only been administering the CRCT for about the last 6 or 7 years and for the first 2 years it was only to 4th grade. These kids scored very poorly and they are now in high school.

There really hasn’t been an inflow of kids who have been exposed to some of the reforms into the high schools. The next few years will really show if anything is working.

Also, we have way to many kids taking the SAT — most haven’t taken a college prep curriculum and most aren’t applying to competetive colleges.

I am sure that some cheating occurs, but probably not as much that could. Look at the scores in Georgia’s middle schools. Pretty dismal.

Lynn

By rachel

April 18, 2006 05:06 PM | Link to this

I have proctored in the schools where my children attend. Each classroom has an adult to monitor while the tests are being given. The monitor cannot be a parent of a student in that classroom. One of the best teachers we have ever had was a 3rd grade teacher who was a writer of the CRCT. She did not teach the test but did teach the kids how to take a test throughout the year. Our county has some of the highest test scores (SAT included) in the state and we are not in the Metro area (lived there for 10 years but do not miss it at all).

By Jessalyn Anglin

April 18, 2006 05:23 PM | Link to this

Do the test scores really show how well the students have learned the material? Or rather how well they know how to take standardized tests? Are “fill in the bubble” tests the best indicator of how well our schools are performing? And most importantly, why does Georgia continue to do the CRCT when everyone knows it is a bunch of crap?

By Pompano

April 18, 2006 05:30 PM | Link to this

Unfortunately, this is not specific to the CRCT - teachers have been inflating test scores for years in the classroom. That’s why almost every year the AJC runs an article on some kid who is the Valedictorian of their class yet cannot pass the high school graduation tests.

The mission of our education systenm has been perverted - we seem to be cranking out high-esteem/low IQ students these days.

By JW

April 18, 2006 05:36 PM | Link to this

Regarding cheating: I’m sure it does occur, but I have never witnessed it myself. As a classroom teacher, I am too concerned with following all the rules and regulations in the CRCT manual, making sure my students are bubbling in the correct section of the answer form, and filling in the correct test form numbers to worry about what other teachers are doing.

Regarding the “we are still dead last in SAT scores” comment: If I have to read or hear this statement one more time I am liable to scream! What is so bad is that this time it comes not from an ignorant outsider, but an ignorant teacher. Ignorant folks continue to compare 75% of our students (SAT participation rate in GA) to the 5-10% of SAT-takers in states such as Mississippi, Alabama, Iowa, Ohio, and Kentucky.

By MMM

April 18, 2006 05:55 PM | Link to this

I was in a DOE subcommittee meeting several months ago with a presentation of one of the “Acountablity” guru. We were told that there are guestions that are not officially “scored” on the test. They are usually way above the expected abilities at that grade level. But the computer does check them and if a particular school or teacher has a pattern of too many kids getting them correct, it is flagged for investigation.

I have also been told that there have been cases where this has triggered investigations. If anyone IS being diciplined, it is certainly hush hush. We were also told that only accredited teachers may administer a test—this is in order that the professional standard association can revoke their accreditation for missdeeds. Apparently this is the only leverage that the state level people have over the local administration.

This is the state party line—you can draw your own conclusions.

By waterbug24

April 18, 2006 05:59 PM | Link to this

AMEN JW! I am so tired of hearing that we are last in SAT scores…so it is not important that we send more students to college and tech schools with the HOPE than any other state! We should be proud that we are giving more kids a chance to get a post secondary degree! Besides which, many of the students in the other states don’t take the SAT, they take the ACT. AAARRRGGGGHHH!

By luvs2teach

April 18, 2006 06:33 PM | Link to this

Interesting topic - my kids and I were just talking about this today!

As far as cheating goes, like JW, I’m sure it occurs, but I have never witnessed it either - from a teacher OR a student. The higher the stakes, the likelier it will be for someone to figure the stakes are worth the risk. The book Freakonomics details a case in Chicago where teachers were caught cheating because the stakes (and rewards - a big merit increase) were obviously worth the risk.

Not for me…I told the students today that I won’t even look at the science test - I don’t want to know - I don’t want to be tempted. I have enough good test prep material that my bases should be covered.

The subject came up because I had to inform them that the stretch break between the two sessions was limited to their immediate area - in order for them to move around, I would have to pick up ALL the tests, and then redistribute them (for a ten minute break) - all to limit the opportunity to cheat.

Not to mention that there are something like 20 different forms for 8th grade alone!

If this posts twice - I’m sorry!

By MMM

April 18, 2006 07:03 PM | Link to this

I know this is extremely off-topic—-but if someone understands what is causing the “posts twice” problem I would sure like to know so we can avoid it when possible.

By Karen Armsby

April 18, 2006 07:09 PM | Link to this

CRCT, more standardized testing that nobody uses to remediate for individual students, and so is really wasting students’ time and energy that they could use learning. Winking and nodding is actually lying and cheating, for the sake of what? For the sake of the image of the school and the school system, the principals’ and teachers’ jobs? When will principals and teachers stand up and say NO to winking and nodding? When will they start acting like professionals with integrity and carry out their mission to teach? Administrative overload is killing education.

By Karen Armsby

April 18, 2006 07:12 PM | Link to this

MMM, Earlier when I posted, a blank page came up, so I refreshed and then saw a double post. Could it be the refresh after the post button is clicked?

By lilteacher

April 18, 2006 07:13 PM | Link to this

I know that it there would be NO WAY that anyone in my school or county would cheat. We aren’t given the pressure for our students to pass, and as a 3rd grade teacher - you know if your 3rd graders aren’t going to be able to answer 50% of the questions on the test. Plus - even if they fail, they get to go to summer school and take it again. I think that having supportive administration and a teacher close to losing their certification in another school due to testing infractions will keep everyone in my county in check….

By Teacher Teacher

April 18, 2006 07:13 PM | Link to this

Of course cheating on the CRCT occurs. How else can you explain the high rate of scoring on the test?

I’ve known of teachers actually writing the answers on the board for students to use on the test. I’ve known of teachers who seat the students at circular tables and allow them to take the test in a group manner. I’ve known of teachers who leave the testing environment for upwards of thirty minutes while the students take the test.

Testing? What a joke!

By Noel

April 18, 2006 07:44 PM | Link to this

I don’t believe CRCT tests are helping the learning process, so I can not in good conscious condemn any cheating that may or may not be occurring during the testing periods. Let’s look at the education situation as it exists. U.S. dropout rates are humbling at an estimated 30%! In a Time Magazine report, most students listed boredom as the leading motivator for dropping out. Now, not to overtly point fingers, but since implementing rigid standardized tests like the CRCT, our educational system has become flat, the cliché, “a mile wide and an inch deep,” kind of education. The most interesting moments for me in school, speaking as one not too far removed from the educational system, was when my teachers stepped down from the standardized blathering they were required to go through and explain why any of this “stuff” they were teaching mattered and how it related to other subjects. Unfortunately, the more the government regulates, the less leeway we give our teachers to /teach/. Furthermore, we continue to allow the government to legislate which courses students have to have to the point that most students in high school don’t have the option of taking anything other than govenment-mandated courses in which the government has the ultimate say in what material gets taught. Maybe it’s just me, but this scenario riots against my sturdy 1984/F451 sensibility.

By V for Vendetta

April 18, 2006 08:43 PM | Link to this

The CRCT and the other standardized tests like it are a big pile of s**, plain and simple. Amazing how everything about education in GA just keeps going up. Ask any teacher about the “progress” though, and you are bound to get an ear full. This ties right in with Patti’s blog topic a few months ago about jumping over a low hurdle. The whole system is F-ed, and we need more than standardized tests, NCLB BS, and Sonny G to fix it.

By supportperson

April 18, 2006 08:55 PM | Link to this

We made it through our first day of testing today. I’ve always disliked proctoring, perhaps because my first experience was proctoring new first graders on the ITBS on 9/11/2001. That being said, I did experience a LOT of pressure from our administration. That pressure was to make sure everything in that room was done exactly correct. I was advised that MY JOB was on the line if a teacher was “off task” and I failed to report it. We are drilled on exactly what is not acceptable. There were 50 questions today and some students tried to ask a question on each one. The answer was always “I can’t help you with that. Do your best.” I’m truly shocked to hear educators admit that they felt encouraged to cheat! (By the way, I’m not young and idealistic…I’ve been around 50+ years.)

By Kage

April 18, 2006 09:02 PM | Link to this

I strongly believe that no teacher in my school cheats. I have never seen anyone cheat in other schools, but I have heard tale.

I suppose I’m naive, but my first reaction to this post was outrage that teachers would cheat. If people feel so strongly about this issue that they would sacrifice morals, then they should outright refuse to test. Cheating, thereby raising scores, is just adding fuel to the fire. Scores go up, high stakes testing is working, let the games continue.

Having said that, though, I do not believe that testing as a whole is fruitless. I do use the scores to inform teaching. I wish that it wasn’t such a central focus of the curriculum. I wish that inquiry based learning was the teaching method and standardized test were just one form of assessment. I wish that our state would incorporate constructed response math questions, as almost every other state has done.

So much of education, including NCLB, cannot be looked at in black and white. There are things to keep, things to reconsider. The one thing that I wholeheartedly disagree with is the use of standardized tests as the single measure for retention.

By Tine

April 19, 2006 08:05 AM | Link to this

I think that testing is a waste of time and too much pressure on the child - my child has complained each morning of stomach pains due to the pressure of testing - 8 yrs is much to young to be put through this

By Lee

April 19, 2006 08:16 AM | Link to this

Cheating on a test is akin to fraud. A little fraud lesson here…

In the business world, we know there are three legs to the “fraud triangle.” These are Motive, Opportunity, and Rationalization.

Motive = If you don’t get your scores up, we will find someone who will.

Opportunity = A little hint here and there, providing answers, etc.

Rationalization = If I don’t get these scores up, I will lose my job. Everyone else is doing it, why shouldn’t I? I think these tests are a waste of time, why shouldn’t I help out?

Teachers and Administrators are human beings. You put undue pressure on them and they will respond - sometimes in a way that you do not want.

When I was in school years ago, standardized tests were used to create a benchmark - a standard for comparison between systems and states. That is an appropriate use of these tests. Nowadays, so much is riding on the results of these tests, I would say it is naive for someone to think that cheating doesn’t exist - yes, even at your school.

By esol

April 19, 2006 08:19 AM | Link to this

Why do you think Fulton cut every music teacher, foriegn language teacher, and ESOL teacher in the elementary school (per yesterday’s ajc - see article for reference)?

There is great pressure to increase scores on state mandated tests. Language and music are not scored on the CRCT. T/F the county is using the money in areas that will boost their scores.

Far too much time is spent preparing for the test and taking the test. Kids are under a huge amount of pressure today regarding testing. It’s tragic. I’m not aware of cheating on the CRCT. However, our school has gone to great lengths to pump up the students. We’ve had pep rallies which I consider to be an ironic waste of time.

What about the pressure to use every minute productively in order to prepare our students? I don’t consider a loud pep rally to be beneficial for testing morale. The kids are only excited about missing class. There are many problems in our testing system.

By jim d

April 19, 2006 08:20 AM | Link to this

Patti,

I’m truly amazed you are getting away with this one. In the past whenever I even insinuated that some teachers may be less than honest when it comes to testing, I’ve been somewhat abused by bloggers on this site. Great blog though. Keep up the good work.

By Buy Danish

April 19, 2006 08:22 AM | Link to this

A few points -

When I proctored I saw absolutely NO cheating. It was done very professionally.

CRCT tests are curriculum tests. SATs are aptitude tests so I don’t understand the comparison. Also, this process has not been in effect long enough to see a child from Kindergarten through his Senior year in H.S.

Why can’t the tests be given later in the year which would give more time to learn the curriculum and to review? They manage to do it in other states…

Once the tests are over the kids learn nothing. It’s party time and a complete waste of resources.

There also seems to be a big range of difficulty this year depending on the subject. My kid is a math ace but found the math CRCT very difficult (middle school). If he found it tough, I fear for the less advanced students. Conversely, reading is not his best subject yet he found that test very easy.

By Nicole

April 19, 2006 08:30 AM | Link to this

First I agree that the testing is not letting anyone know where the child is eduacationally. Secondly, I do not think the teachers cheat. What I do not understand why is it, that for the second year (since my children have been in public school in Douglas County), does the school board think it is intelligent for these students to take this “all important test” the Tuesday right after spring break. I mean the kids have spent the week previously doing absolutely NOTHING except playing and having fun. And then you want them to come back and test. I know you want them to be relaxed, but every teacher I have spoken to says it takes a little while after the break for the child to get back into the routine of school.

By the way, the non-speaking English students test scores are not counted in the “pass or fail” count. If your school is failing, it is not because of them. The failure of the school is affected by the passive resistant parents who believe it is wise to teach their children that skipping the test is actually helping the child. No you are just teaching them that if you do not like the rule, just ignore it. Since it obviously does not make sense to you, you should not follow it.

By oldteacher

April 19, 2006 08:34 AM | Link to this

This is related to the CRCT procedure. We had a couple of parent notes this morning that made me think. One about medication and one about bathroom breaks. We try very hard to honor parent requests and notes but we do have rules and regs that we have to follow when testing.

Do I think that CRCT is necessary. NO!

By John

April 19, 2006 08:43 AM | Link to this

Unfortunately, it does happen among less ethical teachers.

Some teachers in essence teach the test. Some at the early levels like first grade in which teachers read the questions orally use improper voice flexion and hand gestures to essentially tell students the answer. Others ask the students to look over a certain answer. A few even change the answer sheets.

Bottom line—standardized testing is a ridiculous way to rate schools and—even when done right—is no reflection of the learning that goes on.

Ask yourself one question—when have you ever heard any of the elite private schools in Georgia (Lovett, Westminster, Pace, Woodward, Brookstone, Darlington, Savannah Country Day, etc.) brag about their test scores. They don’t because they don’t waste precious school time giving tests that they know are a waste of time. Abolish the tests. Alternatively, keep the tests but release only individual scores to individual parents and forget about compiling school averages and ranking or evaluating teachers, schools, systems, etc.

Georgia first published scores “ranking” school systems in 1972. Who were the top systems according to test scores? They either were the wealthy suburban systems (in those days DeKalb and Fulton) or the small, virtually all-white city systems like Trion, Calhoun and Bremen. Nothing has changed. Today, it’s still the wealthy suburban systems (counties like Fayette and Gwinnett) and those same small, virtually all-white city systems. It doesn’t mean that students get a better education in those systems. It means only that scores are higher on a meaningless test.

By meme

April 19, 2006 08:47 AM | Link to this

If non-English speaking students have been in the country for 6 months or longer, their tests scores are suppose to count. This is what we have been told. I would be very happy to find out that this is incorrect.

By Becca

April 19, 2006 08:55 AM | Link to this

I really love it when people say we teach the test. There are at least 10 versions of the test on every grade level in middle school. Which test am I teaching. Also, unless I have to read the test to a student, I don’t see the test. I check out my tests, give them and check them right back in to a moniter. Is our system so different? I teach the skills that are tested and I teach test taking skills.

By banshee

April 19, 2006 08:56 AM | Link to this

I am a teacher, and the testing is not indicitive of what some students can do and what some cannot do. Folks need to quit making execuses for the students that struggle academically. Boosting their esteem does nothing but falsely prepare them for the real world. My boss does not care if my feelings are hurt when he tells me what to do, nor should he care. Students today are coddled and pampered way too much. We need to return to the “old school.”

By jim d

April 19, 2006 09:06 AM | Link to this

just a question.

Are students with an IEP separated from mainstream testing?

By Becca

April 19, 2006 09:12 AM | Link to this

Students with IEP’s are testing according to their IEP. Examples are: small group settings, having parts of the test read to them, and being able to us a calculator or some of the math.

By banshee

April 19, 2006 09:16 AM | Link to this

Yes, students with an IEP that are required to have accomodations by law are taken out of the regular ed classroom and given those accomodations.

By jim d

April 19, 2006 09:19 AM | Link to this

So Becca, If the IEP sys the test will be read to the student are they separated from the rest of the class or is it read aloud while the other students are in the classroom?

By Big B

April 19, 2006 09:21 AM | Link to this

My students are currently taking the Math section of the CRCT (they are 8th graders). Pray for them, I’m in the school system, can I say “pray for them”?

I’m sure cheating exists. I’m even sure that some teachers look at the subject sections prior to that subject’s testing day and those teachers probably prep students for questions or subject matter that was not previously covered (At my school, we havean abbreviated day after the testing ends at 11:OO — We see all four classes for approx 35mins, teachers have the opportunity to prep kids during these times).

The CRCT is a joke, schools teach to the test, the data is skewed and AYP is the least scientific or statistically sound measurement ever. A school is expected to raise scores for group B based on the group A’s prior abilities. There is no consideration that group B may not have had the same academic foundation, the number of transfers coming in (this may not be a problem outside of metro Atlanta or other large districts b/c the same students tend to stay together from Kindergarten to 12th grade) and of those transfers most are coming from failing schools, so they are probably behind academically.

I teach 8th graders in an inner city Atlanta Public School and many of my students lack the proper educational foundations. I mainly blame the elementary teachers that my students had. It seems as if the students were not pushed, not expected to learn and someone clearly dropped the ball in the last few years. I know parental involvement is key and there must be some value put into education but I am extremely fearful of what the future holds for some of my students. I often express to my students that everyone may not go to college but if you have self-discipline and a strong work ethic, you will find success in some avenue in life. I often feel as if I’m talking to the desk when I make these statements…oh, let me walk around and make sure everyone id bubbling properly. I try not to walk around much, I don’t want to distract the kiddies.

By jim d

April 19, 2006 09:24 AM | Link to this

Thank you banshee, I’ve always been curious as to how thats handled. But now I’ve become curious as to how different schools find space to make the accomodation especially in a school that might have upwards of 30-40% of the students with some type of IEP.

By Becca

April 19, 2006 09:26 AM | Link to this

I don’t like the “Rationalization = If I don’t get these scores up, I will lose my job. Everyone else is doing it, why shouldn’t I? I think these tests are a waste of time, why shouldn’t I help out? There may be many people who are cheating but everyone isn’t. Of course I realize that this is your opinion and you are entitled to it.

By Becca

April 19, 2006 09:28 AM | Link to this

All the SpEd teachers test small groups- we have 5, the two ESOL teachers test small groups, some of the connections teachers test small groups, and unfortunatley some of the regular ed teachers are testing 25-28 students.

By Becca

April 19, 2006 09:30 AM | Link to this

Yes, Jim, if part of the test is read to them, they are tested in a separate group away from the students who do not get part of the test read to them.

By Beverly

April 19, 2006 09:30 AM | Link to this

When my daughter was in the third grade, she told me that her teacher suggested she reread a question and find a different answer. She also was given the exam back because she missed a bubble and screwed up her answer sheet. I wasn’t really surprised, but I did ask her if she received any more help. I know many of you want to believe that there is no cheating at your school, but it happens.

By luvs2teach

April 19, 2006 09:31 AM | Link to this

meme - ELLs get a 1 time deferment if this is their 1st academic school year. There are some criteria that they have to follow to be eligible, however, they must take math - even if they are deferred from other subjects!

That’s all well and good - logic being that math is a universal language, however, with the emphasis on word problems, now where do they stand?

By meme

April 19, 2006 09:43 AM | Link to this

Thanks, luvs2teach, I was concerned about how that worked.

By Buy Danish

April 19, 2006 09:45 AM | Link to this

Nikole-

I agree on the timing of the tests. They should be given 2 weeks later. If the test administrators can’t handle processing multiple choice tests in a timely manner, then there is room for a new company to come in who can.

Becca,

This refrain that teachers are teaching to the test misnomer is maddening. The CRCT is basicaly a State designed final exam, albeit given too early in the school year.

If one doesn’t “teach to the test” in some manner then the curriculum is not being followed, but your are right that that does not mean that you know exactly what is going to be on the test!

As an aside, my son told me today that when students started to talk about the math CRCT to their teacher they were admonished not to discuss any specific questions. That indicates to me that the teachers are not cheating.

I’m curious though - do you get to see the tests when the whole process is completed?

Big B,

I agree about the AYP standards, but I’m less inclined to agree about the CRCT. Unless a reasonable alternative can be offered…

By jim d

April 19, 2006 09:45 AM | Link to this

Is some of it really intentional cheating?

Perhaps to a degree, but what about cheating and not realizing you are doing so? Honestly, if a teacher, in fulfilling a students IEP, must read the questions and answers to the student, how does one not add emphasis to the correct answer? I know most of you are professionals but I also understand you are human and I have pretty good understanding of human nature. Do teachers ever record themselves reading to students and then listen back to see if they are unintentionally adding any emphasis? How do y’all practice this?

I’m not attempting to start anything here, I’m truly curious how teachers deal with this? Is it a non-issue

By Big B

April 19, 2006 09:46 AM | Link to this

JW, thanks for making a point that I’ve been making for years about the GA’s SAT placement. As a native Middle GA boy, I sometimes get offended by folks trying to put down my beloved home state. I’m in Atlanta now and I sometimes get picked on from my imported associates. I tell them if you don’t like GA, we have 20, 75, 85, Hartsfield-Jackson, Greyhound and Amtrak, they all can get you out of here.

Karen Armsby, great points about the waste of time of these standardized tests. Some people on this blog seem appalled at the mention of teachers being cheats. Look, prosecutors leave indictments on conference room tables for “unbiased” witnesses to review, police put evidence in places where there was no evidence, some drive-thru workers slide you extra fries, some congressmen take “donations” from lobbyists, some drivers speed and run red lights, some preists sin and some bankers and mortgage lenders grant to loans to relatives with bad credit, some Presidents lie about other countries’ abilities and desires to wage war — I write this to express that human beings aren’t perfect and aren’t necessarily all good, so don’t be that naive to think that cheating does not occur in isolated pockets of academia.

By EW

April 19, 2006 09:57 AM | Link to this

No one should cheat or justify cheating in any capacity. That being said, it is detrimental to all when you put so much accountability for all (students, teachers, and administrators) on ONE test. IT is simply ridiculous. There should be a series of evaluations, to determine student skills and abilities. ONE test score is not a true depiction of what a student knows. Some students can take tests well, however still miss some fundamental skills, some students don’t test well, (test anxiety) but know the material and can achieve – but the ONE test score says their inadequate. The powers that be that develop these expectations are failing our students in ways unimaginable.

By luvs2teach

April 19, 2006 10:06 AM | Link to this

Everyone, try this:

State CRCT Handbook

If it doesn’t work, just google “Georgia CRCT rules.”

That should answer all your questions about testing and then some!

BTW - not naive enough to think it doesn’t happen - just have never seen it myself!

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

April 19, 2006 10:17 AM | Link to this

THE PROBLEM IS NOT TESTING, IT IS THE WAY WE HAVE CHOSEN TO USE THE TEST SCORES.

CRCT scores should not be used to punish schools. They should be used to help identify problems within a specific school and correct the problems at that school. The focus of the scores in that school should be used to send in additional resources (more teachers, before and after school tutoring, etc..).

If the scores were used in that way, it would eliminate the need for cheating. It would not hinder the educational progress of other schools, but help those who are in need of help.

By jim d

April 19, 2006 10:24 AM | Link to this

Holy Bubblemania the L2T,

Tecahers even buble in the answers?

“Accommodations in the testing environment or administration procedures are provided for students with disabilities and students with limited English proficiency. Examples of accommodations permitted are: extra time, testing in small groups or one-on-one sessions, reading aloud to student and scribing student’s responses.”

By luvs2teach

April 19, 2006 10:36 AM | Link to this

Yes, Jim - it’s rare though - we’re talking about kids who don’t have normal use of their hands, usually.

You have to realize virtually EVERYONE - even severely handicapped - has to take these tests.

By Leia

April 19, 2006 10:39 AM | Link to this

Jim d - Yes, you’d be surprised how much extra work can be involved in having a student with an IEP in your class. And, if the accomodations are not followed explicitly - you are asking for a HUGE lawsuit, especially in my county.

By lynn

April 19, 2006 10:54 AM | Link to this

Last night at dinner, I asked my 8th grade son and his friend (also 8th grade) how the test was. They said easy and not only that, they feel like the reading passages are the same each year, just a little longer and little more detailed. The themes and subject areas were the same.

By jim d

April 19, 2006 10:59 AM | Link to this

Can we back up to the reading thing again?

According to the accommodations allowed, one may not necessarily have to remove a student from the main group in order to read the Q&A to that student. Assuming this could happen, the teacher might be reading in a class full of students and without any intent add emphasis to the answer?

I know this line of questions is boring the heck out of some of you, but I’m attempting to determine the validity of something my son has said recently that I kind of blew off. That being he can listen to a couple of his teachers read Q&A’s and detect a slight difference in tone when the correct answer is read. He’s a very gifted kid and aces most of his tests anyway but I wonder how many other students have picked up on this?

By Dekalb Educator

April 19, 2006 11:16 AM | Link to this

BREAK TIME Whew! This morning as I circled my room, I became very frustrated. As I looked over some of the answers my students had chosen. All year long, I have taught nouns, verbs, subjects, etc. To see their responses made me upset. Oh how I wish I had a magic eraser..HOWEVER, it is what it is. I don’t try to get students to look over an answer (even though it is TEMPTING) I just let it go and pray for the best.

Monitors/Proctors…(rolls eyes) I had to speak with my asst. principal this morning about my proctor from yesterday. He had his ipod on (headphones) and reading some other material. In the meantime, I am sticking to my problem student and 2 special ed. students that were placed in my class for testing. There were so MANY disruptions that I went home in a horrible mood. I can kiss the 1st day of testing GOODBYE!

sorry for the VENT! (walks out of blog in a daze)

By Becca

April 19, 2006 11:25 AM | Link to this

We do not get to see the test booklets when the test is over. We turn them in immediately. Of course if a teacher wants to cheat, they will find a way.

By JambaJUZ

April 19, 2006 11:31 AM | Link to this

Ok people saying there kids are gifted are the same ones saying that Emory is an ivy league school. My kid has been testing in many different states and with the exception of PSATS, testing days are like another spring break for her. She came home yesterday and said OMG these GA tests are created for idiots. Anyone that can’t pass these tests -well thats evolution in progress.

By Becca

April 19, 2006 11:46 AM | Link to this

I don’t think I have every heard of Emory being referred to as an Ivy League school. That is just too funny. I told my students that I had heard the test is easy and that all of them should be able to pass it if they just take the time.

By hs sped

April 19, 2006 11:50 AM | Link to this

jim d- I’ve been in sped for 12 years (8 at the ms level/4 hs) and so I’ve read it all..ITBS, CRCT, WIAT, WC-J, EOCT and GHGT (to name a few). Believe me, there is no inflection in my voice at all. I’m so monotone (boring) that I put myself to sleep.

By Lee

April 19, 2006 11:56 AM | Link to this

Becca, read the “Rationalization” post again. I was merely giving an example of rationalization as it applies to this situation.

That’s twice today. Either I’m not typing what I’m thinking or ya’ll ain’t reading what I’m typing…. ;)

By jim d

April 19, 2006 11:57 AM | Link to this

JJ,

Yep, and people that object to kids being called gifted are generally those whose kids aren’t.

By jim d

April 19, 2006 12:00 PM | Link to this

Hey sped,

I didn’t mean to infer all teachers could be read. But that some can leads me to further question the results of these tests.

By Becca

April 19, 2006 12:29 PM | Link to this

I did a cut and paste from what you said. I added the bold face. I read every word you wrote and that is how I interpreted it. If I did that incorrectly, sorry.

By Manny

April 19, 2006 12:37 PM | Link to this

jim d - Did you also question the validity of the test(s) that determined that your kid is “very gifted”?

By Charles Farley

April 19, 2006 12:53 PM | Link to this

Education is government’s Red-Headed Step-Child. The biggest reason to promote it at all is football. It’s not just a issue in Georgia, it’s all of America. Like the Romans we Americans place so much importance on our leisure time that we have allowed it to creep into our very being. The numbers of students winning sports awards eclipses those winning science fairs and other academic awards. Cheating allows sports to move forward at the expense of the student. It would be better in the long run for school to stick to physical education training without extracurricular team sanctions. Move the inter-school games into the private sector and you’ll see a far more interesting show.

In the 70s I was affected by a poster at a Junior High school I attended. It showed a down and out unemployed man living in a dump with a wife looking at him annoyingly as he reads the job ads saying “I wish I learned more in school than just football”. I think about it every time I see another moron win a sports award. An award more for genetics than acheivement. Personally, I’d like to see the grade requirements raised for school sports participation. Instead they are lowered to make room for a star player. Why not do the opposite? Teach the star player how to read and pass his tests legitimately so he can be on the team instead of lowering the standards for a good game.

It’s not just Georgia, but Georgia is making the news. So what if other states only have 15% of students taking the SAT, we STILL have huge percentages of students scoring badly on it. We prepare students for the CRCT, but do we provide as much support for the SAT? Or is it eaten up by expensive high school level athletic programs?

The only way to have it both ways is to start promoting education at least as equally as sports programs and then limiting those programs to students who can afford it grade-wise. Otherwise we’re just cheering at games for students who have a bleak future when the games are over.

Charles Farley

By jim d

April 19, 2006 01:00 PM | Link to this

Yes Manny, at times I do. He’s a teenager ;-)

By SET

April 19, 2006 01:09 PM | Link to this

Someone once said “There are no accidents”

Isn’t it clear that the system was designed to facillitate cheating? The setup builds in the motivation for cheating and deliberately avoided structure to prevent it.

It is all going according to plan.

Brave New World!!

By Manny

April 19, 2006 01:27 PM | Link to this

jim d - Good one! I feel the same way about mine!

By No name please

April 19, 2006 01:33 PM | Link to this

Here’s a thought for the AJC reporters: Ask those schools that boast “tremendous gains” in the GCRCT, to provide data for their “norm-referenced” tests as well.

If the gains are legit, the students should show improvement on ALL the standardized tests, not just the GCRCT (yes, there may be some slight differences because different test test different things, but if there is ZERO improvement on one standardized test and “tremendous gains” on the GCRCT, someone should have to justify that).

And on the subject of the SATQ: No matter how you slice it, dead last is dead last is dead last. Yes, you can make the argument that only the “college bound” take the SAT in other states, making it unfair to compare those states. But when you are 50th, (and probably 50% of your students don’t know there are 50 states lol) you are 50th, EVEN compared to states that have a similar percentage of students take the SAT.

And sadly, you can’t justify that…

Glad to see a blog that lets educators honestly discuss concerns without fear of retaliation…

By Dan

April 19, 2006 01:35 PM | Link to this

I have a question regarding the following quote “So, testing time comes and the teacher’s career depends on the mental state of an eight-year-old child, an eight year old subjected to ten HOURS of testing” In the context of the piece it was included in and the emphasis placed on hours, you could infer that the test is 10 hours long. Now that seems ludicrous (sp?) and if it is and the reality is there are 10 hours of test a year or a semester. the quote is very sensational and indicative of an anti testing bias

By meme

April 19, 2006 01:43 PM | Link to this

I thought the AJC (and anyone else) already had access to the all standardized test scores.

By Patti Ghezzi

April 19, 2006 01:52 PM | Link to this

Hey all, regarding the Iowa Test of Basic Skills, the AJC has sought and received them for the past three years from the state. Unfortunately, we’ve had some bumps in the road in terms of getting them in the paper due to the test being given in the fall in some areas and the spring in others and the loss of a key staff member in our data department.

I am committed to getting them in the paper, along with this year’s results. We have a new data expert on our education team, so I’m confident this will happen.

Meanwhile, some school districts post the Iowa scores on their Web sites, and you can get them as an open record through your district office.

The Iowas do seem to tell a different, less rosy story than the CRCT, but the test is entirely different in that it compares students to a norming group. Generally, the state average hovers around 50 (average) in the lower grades.

In several cases, we have written about schools with tremendous gains on the CRCT, and when asked about why their Iowa scores aren’t similarly high, the principal generally responds with something like, “That’s how we know we still have a lot of work to do.”

Hope this helps some!

Patti

By Privateschoolguy

April 19, 2006 02:14 PM | Link to this

After an hour of testing first graders get really bored and don’t care nor pay attention to what they are doing. Overall the tests seem to have some validity…but They are expensive and their preparation takes a lot of time away from other learning activities. When the testing is over teachers and schools don’t do much for the rest of the year. If anything good can be said- the tests are really good at preparing students to take tests. But there are not a lot of jobs for test takers.

By DVA

April 19, 2006 02:35 PM | Link to this

Regarding voice inflection for read-alouds… With students taking a read-aloud test, the requirement is that any modifications made to standardized testing must be consistent with those made in the regular classroom. So, basically, if the students have the test read to them, they should have been getting classroom tests read to them throughout the year as well. At least, that’s the case with the students I have. So by this point teachers can have a pretty good judgment of how well they are “non-inflecting” their voice when they get to the right answer.

I worried about that a lot when I first started teaching, so I’d gage myself on it when I was working with them on some of the practice tests, or other activities prior to the test. If you’re committed to doing the test professionally, it shouldn’t be a problem to learn to read the test neutrally. (ever played Balderdash?)

By Buy Danish

April 19, 2006 02:36 PM | Link to this

Beverly at 9:30

Sorry - I just noticed something that you said about missing bubbles and being handed the answer sheet back.

That is not ‘cheating’. These are young kids and they often put the wrong answer in the wrong box which ends up messing up the entire test.

As I recall, when I proctored we were told to make sure the kids were using the correct boxes, but that was IT. We didn’t help with the answers at all - just made sure the answers were for the right questions.

Becca,

So the teachers never get to see the tests that were administered, even way after the fact when all the scores have been tallied?

I would think it would be good for the teachers to review the tests at some point…

By Becca

April 19, 2006 02:48 PM | Link to this

No, even after the tests have been taken and sent in to be scored, we are not allowed to see the test booklets. They are also sent somewhere other than staying here at the school. I think that we should review them too so that we can better see what skill the child is missing. We try to cover all the ways that a question is asked on the CRCT but sometimes they use words and phrases that the child is not familiar with. Several years ago, I took a turn reading parts of the test aloud for some of the SpEd kids. That is when I became aware that the test-makers used the word passage instead of section. Little things like that can trip some of the kids up.

By luvs2teach

April 19, 2006 03:06 PM | Link to this

Although we are not allowed to see this year’s tests, you can access some released questions from prior tests on the Georgia DOE site. Also, I believe most, if not all, counties have access to the online practice CRCT site, which also uses released questions.

The CRCT and ITBS are different tets, and assess different things - this is why you can have differing scores on one or the other.

Think of the difference between a CAT or a PET scan and an x-ray - both give you info - different info - but neither gives you the complete picture by itself.

The CRCT is “criterion-referenced” - it shows how well you learned what your teachr should’ve taught (standards or QCCs, depending on subject and grade).

The ITBS is “norm-referenced” - it compares your performance to those of a “norming group” who took the test, and to whose performance everyone else’s is compared.

If you do well on the ITBS, but poorly on the CRCT, then either you or your teachr didn’t do his/her job.

If you do poorly on both, then you may need remediation.

If you do very well on both, then you may be gifted.

And, if you do well on the CRCT, but poorly on the ITBS, then you may be learning the curriculum here, but not performing well compared to national-wide standards - and that, my friends, is probably where we need the most work!

By JambaJUZ

April 19, 2006 03:38 PM | Link to this

Jim so are you saying your highly gifted kid is in gifted classes now and taking all the AP classes afforded to him/her for his/her grade level? If not then your child on paper is only “gifted” to you.

By jim d

April 19, 2006 04:04 PM | Link to this

wink,wink,nod nod, JJ.

By Buy Danish

April 19, 2006 04:21 PM | Link to this

Becca,

Maybe they’re afraid they’ll run out of questions and will have to recycle the old ones.

I’d want to see the tests just because I don’t completely trust the test writers.

By luvs2teach

April 19, 2006 04:40 PM | Link to this

Ack - my typing ‘teachr’ would be appalled!

Buy Danish - there are questions that they reuse year after year - they don’t release those.

I don’t completely trust the test writers either - writing a test that tests only what you want tested and not some other unforseen variable (cultural differences, ability to read as in the case of a math word problem, etc.) is very difficult.

By lewis

April 19, 2006 05:00 PM | Link to this

I doubt much cheating goes on with the CRCT; that’s a red herring. The issue is what does it measure, and what are the scores compared to. The CRCT, like most states’ version of a competency test, does not correlate well with the NAEP which has been used for years and which does correlate well with the SAT. As long as each state can determine what it thinks kids should know, and devises tests based on that criterion, there will be wide divergence from the NAEP and the SAT. The SAT does seem to be a pretty good predictor of how well most kids will do in college. But what we have been reduced to, this rushing through checklists of what kids are supposed to be exposed to (no matter how shallow their grasp of the material and the concepts) is not good education. Is there a body of knowledge that kids should know, ie. content? Yes. Is what we are doing going to get us there? No, I don’t see it happening in the school where I work. Until we decide that reading is the essential ingredient of becoming educated, and reading books with some substance rather than the pablum that so much assigned reading amounts to, kids will be rather ignorant.
The CRCT is not particularly useful, but the effort to arrive at a common body of knowledge that all kids should know well is desirable, so it is a step in the right direction. We need better educated teachers who can discuss and teach their subjects with great familiarity (and interest)and then we won’t need a checklist sort of presentation to try to make sure kids get exposed to enough material to gain some semblance of ‘knowing something.’ We need teachers who know enough about the subjects they teach that they do not necessarily need to rely on a textbook and study guides to know what to teach. But nowadays one may not have a teacher who knows very much beyond what’s in that textbook, and given the import associated with the CRCT, to veer away from the checklist style leaves one open to censure. Of course, the whole question of how prepared most students and their parents are to do what is necessary to become educated is unanswered. The lack of discipline and lack of strong consequences for failing to do their work and make the effort seems lacking in many students’ family environment. When asked what happened at home when the child brought home a note saying they did not do their homework, most kids tell me nothing happened. That is a real problem and we are not finding ways of addressing it nor do I think we will.

By Karen Armsby

April 20, 2006 08:41 AM | Link to this

lewis, I think your statement bears repeating “Until we decide that reading is the essential ingredient of becoming educated, and reading books with some substance rather than the pablum that so much assigned reading amounts to, kids will be rather ignorant.”

Teaching has been reduced to check off lists of data presented, and standardized testing to see if the data was loaded or not. Students are not computer disc drives that store information for retrieval. Students need to know how to process information, or the information is useless.

Schools cannot expect success from students when they don’t equip them with adequate reading and writing skills, and I don’t mean just the ability to read. I mean real reading competency; the ability to understand and use higher level vocabulary, to comprehend complex sentences, analyze, draw conclusions, find themes and symbolisms, and make connections to other readings.

Schools should spend less time trying to shovel information into students and more time teaching students how to learn, how to research, how to process information and how to think critically.

Education should be equipping students with skill sets that will enable them to actually use their minds, not just store data.

By Becca

April 20, 2006 08:51 AM | Link to this

We used the CRCT online practice tests all year long. I hope that helps some of my remedial students. We ran across vocabulary in the instructions that they were not entirely familiar with and I was able to give explainations. That made me feel a little better. I also think that they recycle many of the questions and that is why we don’t get to keep (or copy) the test. We always have someone watching over us and if I were to take a test and flip through it, it would be reported to the testing coordinator.

I don’t trust all the test makers either.

By oldteacher

April 20, 2006 08:53 AM | Link to this

Amen, Karen.

By Reader

April 20, 2006 11:05 AM | Link to this

I’ve conducted testing for kids requiring small group testing for the last 11 years. Someone asked how we find space and personnel to do this. Believe me, it’s hard. Every certified teacher is called upon, right up to our principal. And then for make-up tests, it’s the same thing.

Some of you who teach upper grades may not be aware that most of the test for 1st & 2nd grade is read aloud, no matter what. There are some sections in which the students read independently and then the teacher reads the questions and choices.

By JW

April 20, 2006 04:45 PM | Link to this

To: No Name Please In regards to the “dead last is dead last is dead last” comment:

How about this - why don’t we take the scores from the top 5% of SAT test-takers in Georgia and use those for comparisons with other states. Do you still think Georgia would be “dead last, dead last, dead last?”
You are expecting us to accept the fallacy that Georgia is “last” in education (or at least last on the SAT) based on improper use of statistical data.

State-to-state comparisons are not only “unfair” as you yourself claim, but they are INVALID - and this comes from the people who publish the SAT.

By oldteacher

April 21, 2006 08:20 AM | Link to this

Last day of testing! Yea!