Get Schooled

By Robert

April 13, 2006 08:10 AM | Link to this

What complete BS. These schools featured were schools where students were motivated and wanted to learn and go to college. This is certainly not representative of a typical school.

Typical schools include parents that don’t want to be parents, parents that don’t care, students that attend school to meet up with friends or have lunch and not to learn. Typical schools deal with students that attend school to sell drugs to other students and not learn. Typical schools deal with students that bring guns to school.

Is Oprah suggesting that all schools have the option to “kick out” all of the above mentioned students? After all, this is what they do in those “featured” schools. If so, then she needs to go to the federal government and change federal law. Otherwise, the typical school has to deal with all of these problems.

I teach at a high school that was a charter school only a few years ago. As a charter school, the administration did have the authority to kick out “bad” students. During that time our standardized test scores were super and the school had little to no behavior issues. The charter lapsed and not renewed and so now the school has to deal with these “bad” students. Our test scores are nose diving.

But, of course, it is all the teacher’s fault….. even though we are the same teachers that were here when things were “good.”

By decaturparent

April 13, 2006 08:31 AM | Link to this

Robert, why was the charter not renewed?

By Becca

April 13, 2006 08:31 AM | Link to this

Amen, Robert. We also have the administrators who think having a football meeting in the middle of my LA class is ok because that is so important, picture day, extra band practice, pullout testing, students who interrupt my class and want to talk about what they watched on tv last night and all the other things that mean I don’t get to teach my curriculum.

By lynn d

April 13, 2006 08:33 AM | Link to this

I agree with much of Robert said. As a parent advocate, I see far too many other parents who just happen upon a school — not really caring much about it except for free transportation and lunch.

All the examples shown were those where parents and students opted into a school — something that works well for children with motivated parents or in communities with good public transportation.

With each passing year, I realize that for my children, school choice would be better — I would choose the best school I could with the best parents and other children. What would that mean for the kids whose parents can’t/won’t/don’t get their act together to make such a choice. Frankly, I am beginning to care less.

By teacher at heart

April 13, 2006 08:34 AM | Link to this

Overcrowding is everywhere. I work at an elementry school which will have 34 trailers next year. It looks like 2,3 and 4 grades will be totally in trailers. We are struggling to get extra funds for more music or art but it doesn’t look good. We may get an extra PE teacher. We will need to start serving lunch around 10:10 and continue until 1:30 to get all the classes in the lunchroom. This is not a minority school! We have an 80% white population. Teachers are already working to gether to make the best of the crowded hallways and schedules. Belive me it is going to be a challenge but overcrowding is NOT just at minority schools.

By hs sped

April 13, 2006 08:41 AM | Link to this

I have to agree with Robert. Get rid of the kids that REALLY don’t want to be there and you will see improvement across the board. The schools featured on Oprah sound wonderful, but how realistic is it to think that an entire country can maintain those standards at each and every school? Who is going to pay for it? Are other sports figures and business leaders really going to step up to the plate and do their part? Can we expect that of them? No one is obligated to do anything. We all have jobs and personal lives. Sounds good in theory (and is good for those that have it), but not in reality.

By just one

April 13, 2006 08:44 AM | Link to this

Robert,

Amen! Kids at the schools mentioned in Oprah’s episode are motivated. Motivated by PARENTS. My parents didn’t go to college, but they worked hard. They told me over and over again that I needed to go to college and that I would go to college. There was never another option for me, thank goodness. The students I teach don’t have this support from home. Education is not valued in the homes of many of my students. These students are not told from the time they are born that they must go to school and do well. I sat and listened to my students this morning in homeroom as they talked about who was in jail and who was pregnant. Thank goodness I’ve never dealt with these kinds of issues as a teen or as an adult. I heard Oprah mention that at High Tech High there were not textbooks. Well this is great if the students you are teaching can read, write and calculate. I teach high school students that can’t or won’t. Some just aren’t ready for High Tech High. I also teach over ten students that have missed between 25-50 days of school this year. Where are the parents when you need them?

By Karen Armsby

April 13, 2006 08:50 AM | Link to this

Can people outside education fix it? Yes, sometimes they can because they are educated and can look at the institution objectively, not subjectively (no pun intended : ).

First, abolish strict age based class groupings in elementary. Take the present elementary grades and make K-2 a unit, and 3-5 a unit within which kids start at the floor and advance up 3-6 levels of instruction per unit in the core subjects. Advance or retain students every six weeks.

Adjust teaching duties to accomodate the floor level teaching the first couple of six week periods, then allocate levels as the number of students advancing (or not)creates the need for teaching at the next level.

All teachers would be qualified to teach the first levels, and gifted certified would teach the higher level classes.

Within each unit of 3 classes also include a ‘boot camp’ for intensive and remedial math and reading skills.

Similar to high school, have elementary homerooms, and use these groupings of same age kids for P.E., Art, and Music throughout elementary. As they move to middle school move the high performing Art and Music students into their own advanced classes, too.

By Carol

April 13, 2006 08:53 AM | Link to this

We have to get over the egalitarian notion that education is for everyone: some kids simply cannot or will not be able to stay the course and get through high school—and trying to keep them in school when they don’t want to be there distracts the ones who DO want to. The problem then is: we are exporting all our low-skill manufacturing jobs overseas, so where are these people going to work?

By scott

April 13, 2006 09:09 AM | Link to this

One way to solve a problem is to go back to the beginning. I believe 20 years ago is when the educational decline began. There are many issues that has lead us to our current state but one that is never talked about or challenged is the effects of the lawsuits that lead to inclusion in the classroom. Inclusion has handcuffed teachers ability to make good students great and great students the brightest. We all know that students do not learn the same way but we try to teach them the same way.

By Leia

April 13, 2006 09:19 AM | Link to this

scott - I agree with you to a certain extent. I recognize that these children are different, and we need to teach them using different techniques. I believe that the bigger problem is that these students have little or no respect for teachers like we did. Back in my day, the teachers weren’t questioned and blamed like we are now. These kids will tell you, “My mother will call our attorney!” Our attorney! That is absurd! I have seen teachers reprimanded for grabbing students in the process of breaking up a fight! Instead of addressing why their kid was involved in a fight - they immediately asked the teacher - “Why did you put your hands on my child?”

When the kids know that their parents have this attitude about teachers, why would we expect them to respect us, or better yet, learn from us?

By jim d

April 13, 2006 09:19 AM | Link to this

The factor that I have to believe makes the largest difference is CHOICE.

All the schools visted were schools of choice. Students wanted to be there.

Robert, I agree that you and other teachers are required to attempt to teach students that really have no desire to be in your classrooms. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if every student were allowed to choose if or where they wished to attend, and after watching the Gates portion at “Small School” wouldn’t it be nice to offer teachers and students smaller schools, smaller classrooms and hands on educational expierences?

“Small school” may not be the answer for every student, but for sure could be the answer for some and should be just one of the many methods employed in education.

By Becca

April 13, 2006 09:21 AM | Link to this

Scott, I saw the decline start over 30 years ago.

By jim d

April 13, 2006 09:43 AM | Link to this

A couple of other points of interest in yesterdays program.

Hi tech high was awesome!

Some Small School students were spending up to 2 hrs. Commuting each way to school. (Indicating they really wanted to be there)

One student improved her average from a 2.4 to 4.0 GPA

Students weren’t just chided by attendance offices for missing a day, they were asked all day long by each teacher as to what happened?

Principals and teachers alike knew the name of every student in the school. (Which kind of blows the advantages of the mega schools with 3000+ students out of the water)

Wow, imagine teachers and administrators having small enough schools to be able to show a personal interest in every student. Kids eat that stuff up.

Like Bill Gates or not, I’d say we owe him a thank you for spending a billion (yes that’s a “B”) dollars of his own money to research different methods of providing our kids the best education possible.

By Karen Armsby

April 13, 2006 09:53 AM | Link to this

Robert is right, and we have said it in many Get Schooled blog threads; Parents are the key to a child’s success or failure in school. IMHO School Choice means that parents and students make the choice to value the education offered by the schools, to have good attendance, pay attention, work hard, respect the teachers and students, and LEARN all they can.

Let’s all e-mail Oprah and aske her to do a show about paretns and their role in children’s education.

By MMM

April 13, 2006 09:59 AM | Link to this

I would argue that you do need an outsider’s perspective in may cases. But you also need everyone to feel they “own” the results—students, teachers, and parents. We constantly argue on this blog about whose interest and viewpoint should reign surpreme.

I did not see these shows, but I would bet that the balanced goodwill that parents, administrators and teachers approach each other with to WORK THROUGH the problems and agree on the underlying mission is present in ALL the sucess stories shown.

By jim d

April 13, 2006 10:00 AM | Link to this

Becca, I believe it goes back at least 40 years ago.

Hey wasn’t that about the time they started consolidating all the small schools into what today are the Mega schools with in excess of 3-4 thousand students in attendance?

By jim d

April 13, 2006 10:07 AM | Link to this

Wow, impressive!

Looks like this could be a day where we all agree.

By Karen Armsby

April 13, 2006 10:12 AM | Link to this

MMM, you are correct, the stakeholders in the school; the teachers, students and parents must all own a part of the the responsibility to successfully educate the students. Grassroots change workds best, not top down, i.e. give the schools back to the principals and teachers and let them teach, wtihout fearing PC lawsuits for removing troublemakers. Establish better communication between school and home and form a partnership in education. Just this non-educator’s opinion.

By Becca

April 13, 2006 10:12 AM | Link to this

You are probably right, Jim, which is why I teach in a small city school system with less than 700 students in my building.

By Becca

April 13, 2006 10:14 AM | Link to this

BTW - I stopped watching Oprah because of her comments about gastric bypass surgery.

By jim d

April 13, 2006 10:19 AM | Link to this

Karen, Love the way you phrased that.

I like to look at it this way. While there are millions of people driving VW’s. How much complaining would we hear if the government were to tell us we all had to drive VW’s?

We’re a strange bunch, we Americans, We feel we must be in control of the little things around us.

I’m not sure if thats a good thing or bad.

By Karen Armsby

April 13, 2006 10:28 AM | Link to this

jim d, I don’t think that schools, teachers, and students are as homogenous as VW’s. In fact there is great diversity among school districts, among schools within a district and within classes in a school. The tipping point for success or failure is not in the uniformity of the curriculum offered (your VW) but in the delivery of the material and the feedback or work each individual student puts into the schoolwork, and in the effort and cooperation the parents demonstrate to their children to develop good attendance and study habits and behave as civil human beings. Perhaps these enhancements are what trick out the VW ride you see as education. Success in school is not a single product like a VW, it a complex give and take of lessons and learning.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

April 13, 2006 10:57 AM | Link to this

Most schools in undersirable neighborhoods have the WORST Teachers, Administrators, equipment, etc….. - Most would not cut it, in a GREAT School.

In some cases, they even have inadequate parents.

You can have motivated children and very supportive parents; but if you have the WORST teachers, administrators, equipment, etc.. you will still have children who are not prepared to move forward in life.

You must have a balance and I just can’t see underperforming schools having that balance: (1.)until Parents and Students are motivated, (2.) the BEST “Educated” and Caring Teachers/Administrators are in Every School. (3.)All Educational Material and Equipment is Available - being Maximized at full potential.

Schools in what some of you consider to be undesirable communities will always be at the bottom.

GO Oprah, Bill and Melinda. I like Rich people, who can think about others - unlike themselves.

By jim d

April 13, 2006 11:04 AM | Link to this

Karen, you get to choose the color of the VW. :-)

But I agree. The similarities to which I was referring were governement control and one size fits all. In my opinion, two things which have destroyed public education.

By SNY

April 13, 2006 12:03 PM | Link to this

Karen,

Your ideas sound WONDERFUL!!! I would actually think about putting my child back into public school if it functioned that way.

Having the students grouped by ability and not age is great. And giving them free time with kids their own age is brilliant. You put some thought into your solution and I think that you should be applauded. I don’t think that I have read a blog that insightful and helpful, EVER.

Has anyone in the school system listened to this idea? (I’m sure I know the answer to that:(.

By Manny

April 13, 2006 12:11 PM | Link to this

SNY - grouping by ability is great for the younger ones, but, it is a huge problem in high school when you have a 20 year old idiot boy sitting next to someone’s 14 year old daughter, and trying to date her all year!

By SNY

April 13, 2006 12:37 PM | Link to this

Manny,

You are right, in my head I was thinking the younger groups would do better. I apologize, I should have put that in the blog. I just assumed that would be understood and you know what happens when people assume. Sorry about that and thanks for correcting me.

By Susie

April 13, 2006 12:39 PM | Link to this

LOL Manny, I was just reading along, and got to your post…you nearly made my ginger ale come out my nose! Too funny! Note to self: don’t drink and blog!

By jim d

April 13, 2006 12:45 PM | Link to this

Ah manny,

He could go to jail for that.

By Susie

April 13, 2006 01:01 PM | Link to this

No no, Jim! Going to jail would hurt his self esteeeeeeeeeeeem!

By hs sped

April 13, 2006 01:02 PM | Link to this

Does anyone read Ayn Rand? Does this make sense to any of you?

Money will not buy intelligence for the fool, or admiration for the coward, or respect for the incompetent.

Do you agree, or disagree? By the way, I’m not trying to start a blog war. This is just something to think about.

By Robert

April 13, 2006 01:05 PM | Link to this

jim d - Your application of “school choice” is certainly not an answer! Per your definition, the caring and better off (finiancially) parents will choose to send their kid to a “better” school whereas the others really had no choice but to go to the local school. Is this really fair? I don’t think so. What if a parent cares and the student is motivated, but they cannot (because they live far away or they cannot afford to drive the distance or the parents cannot afford to take off of work to transport) take their kid to a “better” school? This “good” kid is stuck going to a “bad” local school.

I encourage you to think through your ideals of “school choice” or “school vouchers” or whatever you want to call it and consider everything that your idea(s) entail. Everyone must be considered!

decaturparent - To answer your question, there is the official reason why our charter was not renewed: because the administration missed the deadline to file the paperwork with the State. There is also the unofficial reasons: because the school system was embarrassed due to our success compared to the other schools, and because the school system did not like not getting it’s way with us (forcing us to take bad kids, etc.).

By hs sped

April 13, 2006 01:08 PM | Link to this

Basically, will throwing money at a school really make a difference?

By Karen Armsby

April 13, 2006 01:13 PM | Link to this

hs sped, Answer to your question, No. My point exactly.

By Dan

April 13, 2006 01:50 PM | Link to this

Robert Your example necessarily implies that it is more fair to drag down a high acheiver to make everything “fair” which is patently absurb, but it is in a nutshell the primary problem with public schools If a parent truly care and is concerned about his childs education it matters very little what there financial situation is provided the curriculums are the same.
Sure the kid in the rich school may have a nicer desk or cooler uniforms for the football team. But assuming a similar level of intelligence, the kid in the poor school with concerned parents will still wind up more educated then the rich kid with parents who don’t. To blame it all on finances is a convenient way to pass the buck

By Susie

April 13, 2006 01:54 PM | Link to this

hs sped, “Money will not buy intelligence for the fool, or admiration for the coward, or respect for the incompetent.”

You are right…you’d have better luck Following the Yellow Brick Road and asking the Great Oz for those things as try to buy them.

By Manny

April 13, 2006 01:55 PM | Link to this

jim - If he (the idiot 20 year old boy) is a Special Education student, and his IEP and 504 plan are written appropriately - he would not go to jail! He would attend one day of ISS and pray that her (the 14 year old girl) father is nothing like me!

By SNY

April 13, 2006 02:08 PM | Link to this

Dan,

Trust me, it doesn’t matter how much money you throw at education, if it is not handled properly the money goes to the wrong people and the wrong things. Maybe if the principals of the school could control their money things would be different.

I drive my child 25 miles one way to private school in the morning. I also happen to work only 3 or 4 miles from the school. But I am one of the lucky ones, we can afford private school (barely) and I chose a job near her school on purpose. I actually turned down jobs going to opposite way (good jobs too) so that I could continue to put her where I feel she is getting the best education.

God is good and I am so blessed.

By jim d

April 13, 2006 02:09 PM | Link to this

Robert

My bad. Perhaps I didn’t explain my position very well. Having seen the program yesterday I was encouraged by a minority student that spent 4 hours a day getting to and from school. The amount of time she reportedly spent led me to believe she was using public transit. I certainly wouldn’t want a child excluded due to transportation issues.

In large metro areas this indeed could be an issue, not an insurmountable one though Schools currently provide transportation that would no longer be required. Services for these students transportation could easily be offset with the savings to our school system going to assist with public transportation costs as well as the public transportation services offering reduced rates to students. Those that qualify for free or reduced price lunches should have all transportation expenses picked up.

I really see this as doable if we just join together and set our minds to making sure every child is afforded every opportunity to excel and become productive members of society.

But then again, maybe I am just a dreamer.

By decaturparent

April 13, 2006 02:11 PM | Link to this

Robert… wow! That’s terrible! What school system is it? Maybe you can’t tell me.. if so, that’s OK. I am just really curious about why a school system would take actions that would harm a successful school. I mean, I know you told me the reason… but I just don’t get the logic there. That’s terrible!

Public education makes me crazy sometimes.

By meme

April 13, 2006 02:34 PM | Link to this

Dragging down the high achieving student in the public school system to make things “fair” is what we have been doing for years. Twenty years ago, my 6th graders, read and understood Jane Eyre. Today, if I asked them to read it, the students would have a hissy fit.

By jim d

April 13, 2006 02:58 PM | Link to this

meme,

Guess it comes down to a Clintonisim.

Depends on if your definition of fair is fair.

By jim d

April 13, 2006 03:30 PM | Link to this

SNY,

Ever watched a snowball roll down hill? Yes one bad apple can get a class in complete turmoil.

By hs sped

April 13, 2006 03:31 PM | Link to this

SNY- We do ignore the fools and move on, but then the failure rate is so high that we get “talked to” about it and have to come up with creative ideas to make each student successful. Some will always fail, but the borderline failures we are “highly encouraged” to work with until they pass.

Manny- You’re right!! If the paperwork is in order, one can get away with anything (at school).

By MrLiberty

April 13, 2006 03:32 PM | Link to this

Accountability, “own a stake”, choice, options, are all terms and concepts that are being thrown around.

First lets be clear. Nobody currently owns any stake in education. What you pay is far less than what is being spent to educate your child. The difference is stolen from some other individual or some other company to pay for your kids’ education. You cannot take even the little bit you pay back. You cannot refuse to pay that money. You cannot even get it back if you put your kid in a private school or if you have no kids. Given how little you pay and how little power you have, why should anyone care about your concerns?

You want accountability? You want choice? You want to own a stake? Pay for your own kids education !

Here’s a proposal:

Give the government schools 1 year notice. Immediately end all restrictions on school construction. Give a 100% dollar for dollar capital gains exemption for anyone who invests in the construction and operation of a school. This would include developers who build a school as part of a subdivision (talk about small local schools !) Drop all certification requirements for teachers, but also allow additional private certifications for those who want them (let the government certifications compete with private ones). Next, give a 100% tax credit dollar for dollar for all contributions to scholarship funds (this includes everyone). Also give 100% tax credits for anyone giving money to directly educate a child (this does not include the parents of the child - its about time they paid their own way. This would include aid to families that homeschool. Put all current government school facilities up for sale to the highest bidder or bidders (begin with people who want to use them as schools but allow others if no school takers). When the year is up, fire everyone working for the government system - yes, everyone. Those who deserve to be rehired will be. The others probably never should have become teachers or administrators in the first place. Eliminate all laws that would benefit teachers unions. They deserve no special protection. Eliminate all laws that currently govern curriculums, attendance, etc. End all taxes that fund education for both businesses and private individuals. Through this mechanism, hundreds of thousands of small, accountable schools would be able to spring up in time for the new school year.

Private schools cost what they do today specifically to limit who goes. That will disappear, and the challenge will now be to attract as many customers as possible. There will also be charity schools for those who cannot afford even the lower cost alternatives. Scholarships will also be available to help as well. If parents cannot afford to take care of the children they chose to have, they can come ask for charity. No more stealing from others through taxation. Its immoral and lays a poor foundation to build an education on.

Warm fuzzies about all the positive things being said in these blogs isn’t going to fix an unbelievably broken system. Neither will more money, wishing for smaller classes, hoping the politicians start to care, etc. Unless you own your child’s education and can take your money elsewhere if they are failing, your situation and your child’s will never improve. I have put forth an idea. Poke at it. Propose a better one (that doesn’t involve stealing any more of my money). Do something other than hoping things will magically get better - because they won’t, and the government doesn’t want them to get any better anyway. Intelligent, educated citizens are the greatest fear of a government. But maybe that has been their plan all along.

And to answer this before its even asked. No I really don’t care about parents who don’t send their kids to school and neither should you. They are just dragging your kids down anyway. Start caring about your kids for a change and stop worrying about everyone elses’. Besides, that will get old pretty quick and I have no doubt that these new schools will be interesting enough that more kids will want to go.

By Karen Armsby

April 13, 2006 03:50 PM | Link to this

Mr. Liberty, So you advocate anarchy in education?

By hs sped

April 13, 2006 03:52 PM | Link to this

Mr. Liberty …and the challenge will now be to attract as many customers as possible…..

and what if you attract scum? Scum with scholarships through the charity program. Don’t you see that happening? Ohhh..yessss…something for free…I’ll take it. What about standards for the customers? What about thinking of your new schools as private educational clubs? Play by the rules or your membership is revoked?

By Gail

April 13, 2006 03:57 PM | Link to this

I think some of the bloggers have missed the point of the 2-part Oprah show. What I took from it is that the kids are unmotivated because of the way the education system is operating. Hence the high drop out rates around the country. At some point during the show, they said that the 1956 model (the one currently in use) no longer works for 2006. I guess not, Duh!

Don’t get me wrong; I wholeheartedly agree that parents have to motivate their kids to do well in school; however, the school system should still be responsible for providing a relevant education.

By hs sped

April 13, 2006 03:58 PM | Link to this

Mr. Liberty-I forgot to mention that I’ve always thought the educational system was part of a conspiracy to keep a certain percentage of the population from competing with the chosen. It’s nice to know that there are others!

By Just Me

April 13, 2006 04:05 PM | Link to this

Today and yesterday, I’ve been sitting back reading because the Fulton Co BOE has voted to make some major cut to the elementary instrumental music, foreign languages, “A Promise” remedial reading programs, and cluster nurses starting the school year for 2006-2007. Fulton County plans to reduce school psychologists, school social workers, instructional support teachers and school resource officers. This weighs heavy on my mind.

It is my understanding that 1998 study of Fulton Co. elementary students do better on the state mandated tests than the students who take general music. So, the BOE wants to take away that advantage for their students. This makes no since to me. I understand Fulton has had an increase of student enrollment and they expect several thousand more for next year.

My 4th Grader took instructional music this year and during the year he was advanced to the highest math level and his grade went up to an A. I have seen the correlation for myself.

So, as I sit and ponder the past few days of this blog about trying to find a better way for our children the Fulton Co. BOE is trying to squash the things that actually work.

The Fulton Co. Board of Assessors, after years of not “doing the math” and making sure the proper taxes were actually assessed now have finally had the trickle down effect into the schools.

I know https aren’t allowed, so I will leave that part out and let you all know that there is a web site I would appreciate you taking a look at. www.saveourkidsmusic.org

I know this is not on topic but in a way it is on topic. The crisis and down fall of the US school. Fulton Co. Schools will be used as an example for the entire State of Georgia.

Several years back Rockdale Co. Schools did away with their instructional music programs and in several other areas as proposed by Fulton Co., now they have daycare center (for students’ children) in some of the high school; I know for a fact the Heritage High has a daycare for the students’ children.

Taking these programs away actually was just a temporary fix that led to other problems. This is not acceptable.

By MrLiberty

April 13, 2006 04:08 PM | Link to this

No I don’t advocate anarchy in education. I advocate the free market - you know, just like the one that provides you food, clothes, housing, automobiles, etc. (Well, not all of those are exactly examples of a free market, but I think you get the idea).

Schools would set their own standards. Why is that not implicit. Private schools now have admission tests, IQ requirements, etc. Such “discrimination” as you will no doubt call it is essential. You can’t have good schools and allow everyone in. Just look at the current system.

Even the worst kids will find a home. With fewer restrictions on getting schools started along with tax incentives for funding, you will see plenty of folks who want to help these kids finally get the chance. And please don’t get all high and mighty with me because you don’t live in crappy neighborhoods specifically so that your kids can go to the “best” schools - just another way of “discriminating” isn’t it?

By erica

April 13, 2006 04:43 PM | Link to this

Mr. Liberty,

I think you’re nuts, but you may have a point. I see it every week in our school. The chosen (the gifted and high achievers) get a lot more out of school than the kids with the low IQs. From kindergarten, the slower kids are subtly humiliated. We have a kid in my daughter’s kindergarten class that isn’t allowed to ever do science experiments because he acts up. He also isn’t allowed to have a cubby all year. He lives in the projects and has a single mom who doesn’t seem to have the time to deal with him so he hasn’t improved much.

Because he is in a class where the vast majority of the kids are high achievers (most of the class was reading before starting K), he gets the raw end of the deal because the teacher darned well better keep the smart kids challenged or she will get heck from their helicopter parents. I have seen him crying on the floor, humiliated and miserable because the whole class is doing a fun science experiment, and he is banned from them (for the whole year) so he has to sit and watch. Parents have complained about this situation, but the administration doesn’t seem to want to handle it until next year.

If he could go to school with kids of his intelligence and with behaviors more similar to his (and dont’ start down the class/race train because I know lots of rich kids with similar problems at school), he might have a chance. The way things are.. now he will continue to be humiliated until he finally drops out.

Tracking really isn’t all bad. I certainly would rather have my kids with other kids who have similar learning styles and needs and with a teacher who knows how to handle those needs than have him constantly humiliated in a class with kids whose abilities far exceed his. I don’t understand who these idiot parents were that wanted to humiliate their kids. They should have demanded quality instruction rather than demanding that their kids be in a place where they can’t possibly keep up.

I know all the arguments for “inclusion.” However, when I see it in practice it makes me want to cry.

By Karen Armsby

April 14, 2006 08:50 AM | Link to this

erica, I am disturbed by your post. If I were you I would be taking my concerns about the excluded kindergarten child up to the central office for your school system. No small child should be punished for the whole year like this! Maybe you could call a reporter and ask for help reporting the story. Oh yeah, we’re posting in the ajc right now, how about looking into this Patti?

By jim d

April 14, 2006 09:12 AM | Link to this

I’m sorry erica, but this really stirs my dander. Not only the schools actions you describe but the moms unwillingness to stand up and fight for her child. I don’t care how busy one is, a phone call should be in order and arrangements made to either meet in the evening or something so mom can raise pure cain. The schools actions towards this child are unexcusable!

By MrLiberty

April 14, 2006 10:41 AM | Link to this

Erica,

Call me nuts all you want, but it sounds like you are a consumer with wants in need of a provider who will fill your needs.

You are never going to get that out of the government system. You may never be able to find it in the private system either so long as the current system is sucking up and wasting all the money.

Stop thinking of schools with 1000-2000 kids. Stop thinking of classrooms with 25-40 kids. Stop thinking of classes with only 1 or 1 1/2 teachers. Stop thinking of schools that ALL approach teaching the same way. The FREE MARKET means exactly that. People will be free to explore alternative teaching methods, class layouts, schools setups, etc. Maybe the sole focus of the school is 50 kids all with similar learning needs. You can’t be alone in wanting a specialized situation for your child. Send your child there for a couple of years and then maybe they are ready to go to a more “traditional” type of school. Best part is, you, your child, their teacher and their future teacher decide that. Not just some arbitrary bureaucrat making blanket decisions for an entire state or school district.

How does that sound crazy? What’s crazy is that this discussion about failing schools has been going on for at least 40-50 years now and everything has been tried EXCEPT a free market approach. Yet everyone has horrible things to say about that approach but is happy with all the choices they have everywhere else in their lives - courtesy of that same free market.

Centrally managed systems demand that everything be the same. All teachers receive exactly the same training in education. That’s what “state certified” ends up meaning. Every child is different, yet all are taught the same way (basically). No wonder so many fall through the cracks.

What’s crazy is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result every time. That’s called insanity.

By Susie

April 14, 2006 11:24 AM | Link to this

Erica, that’s terrible about the little boy who can’t do science experiments or have a cubby…unless he tried to blow UP a cubby WITH a science experiment, I can’t possibly think of anything he could have done that would warrant an entire year of punishment. Punishment is meant to teach a lesson about consequences, and move on. It’s not meant to be a long-term humiliation. Gee, what a wonderful way to motivate him to want to get an education, teach him in Kindergarten that school is a “bad place.” That’s just sad.

And as for the inclusion? I’m with you, it can be heartbreaking to actually see it in action. Like the kid I mentioned the other day who was autistic and was in a regular 1st grade classroom with my son. He had his own teaching assistant with him, and he was too much for her to handle most of the time. He did a lot of screaming. He simply could not function with that kind of structure and with 20 other kids around him. Being in denial about that was never going to make him be able to, but since his parents or someone was in denial about it, this kid was basically tortured every day by having to sit at a desk with a bunch of other kids around him, which was obviously too overstimulating for him.

By Laf

April 14, 2006 11:38 AM | Link to this

may qualify for special education services. He should be referred immediately for testing. If he is not referred the school is violating special education law. Unless absolutely necessary tracking is not acceptable. Special education students should be in the regular classroom with their peers with the necessary supports. This may mean this teacher may need an assistant if she is going to have a special education student mainstreamed into her classroom. Research has shown time and time again that inclusions benefits everyone——the regular education kids as well as the special education kids. Inclusion will not work if you have an incompetent teacher or one who has a negative attitude toward the disable.

By knotso

April 14, 2006 11:50 AM | Link to this

“inclusions benefits everyone”

That’s just plain Horse Manure.

Tell me how kids that are extremely gifted benefit educationally from being stuck in a class where the teacher holds them back so as to include disruptive, initentive little heck raising johnny with the IQ of a door knob.

By Robert

April 14, 2006 12:55 PM | Link to this

MrLiberty,

Your name is misleading because from your posts, you do not believe in liberty FOR ALL - only for an exclusive few.

The purpose of public education was to ensure that everyone had an opportunity to gain a minimal level of knowledge to operate in society…. reading, writing, math, etc. This minimum level is ensured at the federal level.

The problem comes in when public education morphs into being everything for everyone. Public education must teach basic morals and ethics because some parents do not do this. Public education must teach basic social skills because some parents do not do this. Public education is also expected to prepare some students for college - most of the “good” colleges expect incoming students to have a minimum level of knowledge/capability.

Your so-called solution does not resolve the problem but is a throw back to segregation - maybe not on race but rather along social lines. Do you really think that this is a solution? Isn’t this India with the cast system?

Again, before advocating for a position, please be sure that you have thought through the issue and have considered all consequences!

By meme

April 14, 2006 12:57 PM | Link to this

Laf, I think you probably know this but others may not. The school can refer a student to special ed services all day long, but the parents have the final word. We have some parents here who don’t want their children labeled SpEd (I don’t always blame them for that) and yet expect their child to get all the services. It can be a real challange for the school.

By MrLiberty

April 14, 2006 01:15 PM | Link to this

To Karen Armsby:

You went on a long commentary in the previous blog about the whole “school experience” and its relation to the value of education, etc. I had attempted to convey that I did not see just the money aspect of education as being its only measure of value but maybe I should have been more thorough in my clarification (my posts are rather long already). Yes, I appreciate that the experienc that one has during these formative years absolutely lays the foundation for one’s future life and experiences. That having been said, why would you just want your child to have to “deal” with whatever the government decides they must deal with? Why should your child lose all of their classmate friends because the school board now decides you live on the wrong side of new district lines?

Face it, whatever your experiences from school, you could have had just as wonderful ones at a school 1/10th the size, in a class with multiple grades in a room with more than one teacher, in a school that met for regular classes only 4 days a week and spent the 5th day at a local museum, art gallery, concert performance, or the like. No, school is not like a supermarket. In a supermarket you get to choose what you want. You can be creative and buy something you’ve never tried before. You can buy exotic items that once combined might produce the most wonderful dish you’ve ever tasted. Government schools are more like a Ford dealership in the early part of the 20th century. One car to choose from. No options, take it or leave it (well, actually you have to pay for it too - so a bit different) and you can have any color so long as you want black. No matter what you put into this experience, there’s not going to be much variety in the finished product.

Don’t you want more for your child?

Even if you don’t, why are you standing in the way of others who wish more for theirs?

By Laf

April 14, 2006 01:20 PM | Link to this

teacher individualizes instruction. The support system for the special education students will enable the regular teacher to spend the needed time with the regular students. Yes, some special education students shouldn’t be mainstreamed due to the problems mention. There are many that can be mainstreamed even if they have a low IQ, learning disability, autism, or a host of other disabilities. You need to read IDEA and develope a little compassion for people who are not as fortunate as you are. One day that Johnny with an IQ of a door knob may be a part of your family.

By MrLiberty

April 14, 2006 01:24 PM | Link to this

Erica:

“Maybe this child could get special help…” “Maybe if you spoke to the principle…”
“Maybe the teacher could…”

MAYBE THIS CHILD WOULD GET SOME REAL ASSISTANCE IF HIS/HER PARENTS WERE ABLE TO TAKE THEIR MONEY AND GO SOMEWHERE WHERE THE TEACHERS WERE RECEIVING A PAYCHECK BASED ON THEIR PERFORMANCE AND THE PARENTS GOT TREATED LIKE REAL CUSTOMERS AND NOT JUST A IRRITANT.

Why can’t you folks see that if you could take your child, and your money and walk, every school would cater to your needs, but since you can’t, they just don’t care - OR HAVE TO?

By Laff

April 14, 2006 01:27 PM | Link to this

I agree with you 100% meme. It is a shame that the label has such a stigma.

By Laf

April 14, 2006 01:39 PM | Link to this

I wonder how long the public schools would last if Walmart got into the school business. The public schools would end up being another kmart!!

By knotso

April 14, 2006 02:01 PM | Link to this

Laf, read your post.

“Special education students should be in the regular classroom with their peers with the necessary supports.”

“Research has shown time and time again that inclusions benefits everyone——the regular education kids as well as the special education kids. Inclusion will not work if you have an incompetent teacher or one who has a negative attitude toward the disable.”

Are you aware of how many schools use “Break-out” to accommodate the gifted and special education factions? Yes indeed they throw them all together in a regular classroom with exception of “Break-out” and yes sometimes the regular classroom teacher struggles to challenge the gifted while meeting the requirements of little Johnny’s IEP and rarely do teachers receive any classroom help.

You have the audacity to chide me about compassion for the less fortunate while you fail to offer a shred of compassion for the gifted? That’s a bit like the pot calling the kettle black don’t you think?

And Dear Laf,

I’ve read IDEA from cover to cover on several occasions, including the most recent revisions, What I have gained from this is the knowledge that IDEA is not about educating the less fortunate as much as it is about keeping the most intelligent held in check.

By Robert

April 14, 2006 02:11 PM | Link to this

MrLiberty….

With all due respect, your ideas work only if all parents cared to take the time to find the right school for their child and to actually provide the tools needed (transportation, etc.). This is unrealistic! Not all parents care. Not all parents have the resources.

Besides, if al parents actually did care and were on equal footing, the current public school system would also work equally well, IMHO.

Again, I encourage you to think through your ideas and maybe refine them so that everyone care be served….

By Robert

April 14, 2006 02:15 PM | Link to this

Mr. Liberty….

I guess that for me to understand your perspective, it would be great if you could clarify: do you feel that education is for everyone? And, should a child be held accountable for the “sins” of the parent?

By MrLiberty

April 14, 2006 03:50 PM | Link to this

Laf:

I appreciate the compliment. Plenty of economists, former teachers, and others have written hundreds of books on this subject, so it is not as though all of this hasn’t been looked at thoroughly on paper.

I would personally rather stay away from any reference to WalMart and education. While many see them as a great value/low cost alternative, many do not.

It makes a good point however in that they have figured out how to cut costs while delivering the same quality products as others. Yes, the quality of the teacher is important, but if you look at government schools, you can easily see that the vast sums of money spent in every school are not going to the teachers. Without hundreds of administration folks, palacial buildings, etc. every school would be able to deliver quality products at “WalMart” prices.

The reality is that if the government schools had to compete on a free-market playing field with other schools there is no doubt they would go out of business ( I suppose that is what the K-Mart reference is about).

Food, clothing, shelter and the other essentials of life are far more important than education (on a strictly practical basis), yet we are more than comfortable allowing the free market to deliver these products to us. Clearly the teachers of this country have done a great job convincing everyone that they and they alone can deliver quality education, but I can assure you that the majority of educators in private and certainly homeschools do not have any sort of formal teacher training, nor state certification. Their success and superior performance has been shown on standardized tests, etc. No, I am not going to cite them, you do the Google search. Take home point - everyone deserves an array of options from “WalMart” to Costco to Kroger, to Whole Foods, to Neiman Marcus etc.

By MrLiberty

April 14, 2006 04:29 PM | Link to this

Forgive me Robert, but I have thought through my ideas and I see no reason why anyone should be left out. I have provided tax based encouragement for individuals and businesses to invest in the education of others. Businesses would no doubt love this idea since they are being grossly let down by the current school system. The billions they collectively spend just to teach basic skills could easily be spent taking care of the problems up front. No doubt the success of the private enterprises versus the government failures would provide even more incentive (I mean why would anyone want to pour money money down the current rat hole?)

Is education for everyone? Sure, why not. I don’t see any reason why entrepreneurs would not want to capture business from everyone they could.

What about the kids with worthless parents? Should children be forced to pay for the “sins of the parents?”

Here’s a better question? Should everyone else’s kids have to pay for the sins of those parents? I love the way that I am put on the hook to be responsible for solving the problems of everyone else’s irresponsibility. When are you ever going to demand some personal responsibility from the rest of humanity. It is this kind of mentality and tollerance of sub-human behavior that has led to our current situtation.

Here’s a challenge to you Robert: Why don’t you spend as much time worrying about making sure YOUR child has the best educational opportunity they can as you do worrying about everyone else’s. I’m sure your child would appreciate the thought.

When you are up to that level of committment to your own kids, take your remaining free time and devote it to all of these kids that you automatically and quite insultingly have attributed to these “worthless” parents. Why not work with one of the networks or cable channels and turn their broadcasting into a non-stop teaching channel so the kids who will just end up at home all day have something better to watch than General Hospital? When parents realize that they can no longer blame the government for the failure of their kids, most will come around. The rest, see above. If that doesn’t work, get together with the other like-minded folks that constantly criticize my suggestions for the very same reasons and start you own damn charity schools to educate these kids (I would remove all the barriers to you getting started). Remember the tax breaks, that’s how you fund them - go out and beg. Give me a call and I might even send you some cash. I dont’ mind contributing to a good school. My tax dollars are wasted now.

By MrLiberty

April 14, 2006 04:32 PM | Link to this

Robert:

Oh, and as for transportation, etc., as I said in another posting, there is really no need to think of schools as being these palaces separated by dozens of miles. Why not one in every subdivision? Why not one one every corner like gas stations? Anyone who wants to start a school very well might. Transportation may also be included in the cost. Wherever there is an opportunity, there will be someone looking to fill it. There is also no reason why a bus service need only serve one school. Municiple bus lines may also be able to supplement depending on their routes. I took public transportation all through high school. It was great, and most of the people on the bus both coming and going were fellow classmates. You are looking for a central planning solution, and central planning doesn’t work. The free market will provide, and damn it, we need to stop worrying about everyone else’s problems. Let them move, get the kid a bike, why don’t we let them solve their own problems.

As long as we’re at it, why don’t you show everyone else how much you have been thinking about the problem and outline your solution to the problems. But please try to avoid stealing any more money from me. And be sure to work out a situation that addresses everyone, including the parent that wants to take their money and their child and leave one school and go to the school of their choice.

Good luck. The free market will address everyone, but I think that you will have a tougher time.

By C.R.H.

April 14, 2006 05:00 PM | Link to this

Mr. Liberty, a few minor issues you have neglected to mention; citizens of this country (and even the ILLEGAL persons in this country) are granted the opportunity to a free and appropriate education. Your system would not work. Another aspect you didn’t mention, what kind of school would take in some of these very disturbed kids, violent delinquents or the severly handicapped (both physical and emotional)? What you seem to forget is that the name of the game in business / free market is “PROFIT”, businesses want the most bang for their buck. The types of students I mentioned are going to use a ton of resources (money) and have little to no profit potential. Where do they fit in? Is someone going to “sponsor” them or give them a scholarship?

By Laf

April 14, 2006 05:21 PM | Link to this

Knotso I didn’t say we shouldn’t support the gifted student. The regular education teacher that teaches Johnny should demand at the next IEP meeting that she has the support that is needed to meet the requirements of the IEP.I realize that many special education students spend part of the day in a special education resource room just like many of the gifted kids often spend part of the day in a gifted resource room. But neither group needs to be kept apart all day long. An your interpertation of IDEA is an excellent example of compassion for the less fortunate.

By Robert

April 17, 2006 09:34 AM | Link to this

Mr. Liberty

Your ideas are simply not practical. The major expenses of education are the facilities. Putting a school on every corner would plainly be cost prohibitive.

Your “free market” is not free at all to everyone, and this is the major problem it has. In order for a market to be truely “free” it must be the same for all (ie: equal playing field), and your ideas do not fit this. Your ideas benefits certain groups over others (ie: financially affluent parents can add money and afford to ship off their kids to the more expensive and “better” schools).

I am all for free market if it is really free and if everyone has an equal playing field. The reality of the situation is that this does not exist.

Would you call it a “free market” if Bell South were given a huge tax break from the State while Verizon was not? Would you call if a “free market” if Publix were given a tax rebate while Kroger was not?

The term free market means free of all outside forces in order to compete fairly. In education, this does not exist.

By Karen Armsby

April 17, 2006 09:50 AM | Link to this

Mr. Liberty, I didn’t just accept what the government had to offer my kids in education, I was a partner with the schools, a volunteer in the schools and a partner with my children in their education. More of my dollars went into their education than what is allocated through my property taxes. My kids were successful in public school, are successful in college and all three will have profesional careers. Thanks for your small property tax contribution to our society to educate all of our kids!

By Robert

April 17, 2006 10:53 AM | Link to this

Mr. Liberty, You asked how would I “fix” public education? Here are some ideas (some of which I have already mentioned in other blogs)….

I do not think that it is wise to fire current teachers even if they are not the “qualified” ones. After all, experience does count for something.

I feel that if these 4 things were done, we would see a rather large turn around in only a year or two.

By Robert

April 17, 2006 11:13 AM | Link to this

Last idea….

Stop paying all teachers on the same pay scale. Pedagory is required of all teachers. However, the is a vast amount of difference between content knowledge of elementary, middle school, and high school. Teachers should be rewarded for the greater content knowledge. This is done in other school systems (Chicago, for example). High school teachers are paid more. This only makes sense. The math in middle school is add/subtract/multiple/divide. The math in middle school is up to about algebra. But in high school, the math content includes advanced algebra, trig, and calculus.

By Robert

April 17, 2006 11:19 AM | Link to this

It is pedagogy, not pedagory… sorry!

By MrLiberty

April 17, 2006 03:16 PM | Link to this

Karen Armsby,

My “contribution” was nothing of the sort. It was theft, plain and simple. Frankly, if the theft actually did a worthwhile job of educating kids I would be less upset. Georgia is either 48th, 49th, or 50th in the nation, and the nation is 26th or worse globally. Obviously there is tremendous dissatisfaction with the schools. That you chose to have the government educate your children is your choice. It made you the recipient of stolen goods, but you don’t seem to have a problem with the immorality of socialism or redistribution of wealth.

Robert:

From Wikipedia (definitely not the final word on this subject). “In theoretical economics, a free market is a controversial model of an idealized economy, wherein exchanges are “free” of all coercive measures, including such government interference as tariffs, taxation, and regulations, except protections such as those which allow for private property ownership in land, natural resources, and the broadcast spectrum, as well as intellectual property and corporations.

In the confines of political economics, the “free market” is simply the conceptual opposite of a command economy, where all goods and services are produced, priced, and distributed under government control.”

The Free Market is neither free nor does it provide an equal playing field. “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need is communism/socialism.” If you believe that it is ok to steal from some to give to others, then that is your choice. Do any of the other commandments mean anything to you?

Tax breaks are a form of government intervention in the economy - taxation itself is the greatest form of intervention. They both have nothing to do with a free market. Please read up on this subject before you attempt to criticize a term that I am using correctly and know well the definition of.

I love as well how everyone thinks that my plans are totally geared towards the rich. Maybe you haven’t noticed, but the rich have already pulled out of the government schools. The government schools hurt the poor and the middle class far more than the rich. The poor have little or no choice where to send their kids. The middle class could make choices, but they are being overtaxed to pay for the poor.

All the while, so long as businessmen must compete with “free” schools, they are unable to provide the numbers and diversity of schools that could today be providing more choices for even the middle class. I have proposed the availability of potentially billions of dollars in scholarship monies, inspired by tax credits, specifically to help poor kids get out of their situation.

As for costing too much to have schools on every street corner, maybe you need to rethink what a school needs to be. It doesn’t need a football or baseball stadium to teach math or reading or writing. If it has a playground it will have more than most new schools do. Extracurriculur activities don’t need to be tied to the school facility either. Whatever happened to just leasing space in an office park with an adjacent park area? All things might be possible in the free market.

Just what form of voodoo economics do you all believe in? You want free schools that have everything, do everything, have outstanding accountability, only hire the best teachers, fire the bad administrators, spend money wisely, educate even the worst kids without impacting your kids, feed the ones who don’t get breakfast, but still don’t provide any mechanism for the consumer to “vote with their feet” and take their money and kids elsewhere. And people think my plan is crazy. You all want nothing to change and everything to somehow get better. In my job we routinely perform root cause analysis to accurately identify the root cause of a problem. My plan identified what I believe is the root cause. You all are obviously unwilling to really identify the root cause. Hint, its not a lack of parental “committment.”

Again Robert, you make a bunch of great proposals, but there is still no true mechanism of accountability. Some of your grand plans will require the theft of even more tax money that nobody will be able to refuse, no matter how bad or unaccountable the system remains.

Oh, and as for my plan having legal concerns because we guarantee a free education to everyone - fix the law. No more guarantees.

By MrLiberty

April 17, 2006 03:38 PM | Link to this

Robert:

The best and most accurate criticism of socialism and why it will always fail goes back to pricing and pricing mechanisms.

You want testing done, but who determines what the right testing is? How is the quality of this testing to be measured in comparison with other testing? How do we know that children are not just being taught to pass the test rather than how to learn? Kids who fail are to be forced into dead-end training. If the school system failed them once, why should they be made to suffer again?

You want tighter standards for teachers. Who sets those standards? How can we be sure they are tight enough? Do we really need the same standards for an elementary as a high school teacher? Who decides?

Who decides what the right amount of pay for a teacher is? Where do these market incentives come from to attract good teachers? Businesses come up with more money by passing on costs to consumers. Will you just be stealing more money from me and my neighbors?

If we start paying teachers different rates, who decides how much? How much is correct? What if we are paying too much? How do we decide? Why is what they teach more important than how good a job they do?

You are attempting to put typical market controls on a socialistic system. A free market school would know how to address all of these issues. They would weigh cost versus anticipated benefit versus the price they can charge. The result is the appropriate level of staffing, the appropriate level of pay for employees, the appropriate level of testing, etc. No, it is not always perfect, but customer dissatisfaction leads to lost revenue, leads to either bankruptcy or change.

Since there are little to no market forces at work in the Government system, none of these questions have been properly addressed. Wishing them to be will not change this reality.

By Robert

April 17, 2006 03:41 PM | Link to this

MrLiberty,

If you begin your thinking based on no one is guarantee a free education, then I can understand your stance (maybe not agree with, but at least understand).

However, until the point in time when there is no guarantee, we have to deal with it. And, my proposals do just that: deal with the current federal education law. My 5 points are viable ways to improve the educational system in the State of GA.

If you can change federal law, then we can deal with that reality. Until then, we must deal with our current reality.

By MrLiberty

April 17, 2006 04:27 PM | Link to this

Robert:

Fine, leave mandatory free education in place. Now answer any of the questions I asked in my previous post.

Let me make another point that I had not responded to earlier. As for the troublemakers, handicapped, learning disabled, and whatever generic terms you want to put out there, I see no reason why these groups would not also have opportunities available to them. Plenty of folks currently choose to work with these groups. There is plenty of money to be made from addressing the needs of the handicapped for instance, and quite possibly if no one else was stepping forward, a wheelchair company or other similar organization might step forward to help with the educational needs. (Good advertizing you know). Charitable groups do the same for troubled kids, educationally challenged, etc. Contrary to popular belief, and maybe I failed to give them enough credit in my analysis, but plenty of people like to run non-profit groups simply for the sake of helping others. Knowing that these groups of students might be left in the cold, I have no doubt folks will step up to address the need. Maybe all of the posters who can only find problems with my suggestions would like to spend a few hours a week donating their time to such a cause?

As for “dealing with our current reality,” I thought we were discussing an Oprah episode? Where in any realm of reality does her show exist?

She took a look nationally at a crisis. The federal government currently contributes about 6% of all educational funds to states along with about 95% of the regulations. The discussion appeared to be about a national solution so my proposal was national. If you just want to change GA state law and tell the feds you don’t want their 6%, I will cheer big time. The Feds have absolutely no right being involved in education. The republicans once promised to do away with the DOE and like typical republicans they made it bigger. NCLB has only made things worse by mandating even more federal intrusion into what should be a local issue.

Again, Robert, please answer the questions I asked regarding your proposals. I have attempted to answer as best I can, all that I have been asked. By the way, the importance of the Free Market - for those who haven’t been paying attention to how the rest of society works, is that all issues are addressed by the person who “owns” the problem. There is a division of labor, the government does not mandate from above, and individual responses to individual issues are possible, rather than a single, inflexible response.

By Robert

April 17, 2006 04:50 PM | Link to this

Mr. Liberty, I have already answered you questions as best as I could. If you feel that I have “skirted” your questions in any way, please rewrite your questions more precisely.

You asked what my solutions would be without your imaginary federal system, and I listed clearly 5 points to change things. What other questions do you have for me?

Also, in this (and other blogs) it is best to stick to one topic at hand. Whenever you introduce multiple unrelated issues and also include a social/cultural statement along with your perspective on politics it only serves to lose the integrity of the original issue.

By MrLiberty

April 18, 2006 08:48 AM | Link to this

Robert:

In my 3:38 posting from 4-17 I asked a series of questions related specifically to your 5 points. Those are the questions I am referring to. To me, these questions flow naturally from the points you made.

I look forward to your responses.

I’m certainly not clear as to what you are talking about regarding other topics. I have been posting about education and a free market solution to our current mess. If you think that a solution to this problem can be discussed without discussing economics, legal issues, social and cultural issues, and moral issues they you have missed the point of why our current system is so messed up. It might be easier to keep this discussion only to school policy, but you cannot ignore the economic, social, legal, and moral realities that exist and operate in our society. It is also not my fault that the bulk of this group is ignorant about basic economics or the true nature of the government school system.

By Robert

April 18, 2006 12:26 PM | Link to this

MrLiberty:

“You want testing done, but who determines what the right testing is? How is the quality of this testing to be measured in comparison with other testing? How do we know that children are not just being taught to pass the test rather than how to learn? Kids who fail are to be forced into dead-end training. If the school system failed them once, why should they be made to suffer again?”

There are ways to make valid tests with good test questions in order to see if students know and understand content. There is not enough space to list here. I do know that you enjoy doing internet research, so I leave that up to you. You ask a very bothersome question by assumming that it is the school system that fails all students - that is absolutely and positively not true, and is a great example of your continues editing and interjecting of your personal opinion into blog posts that you intend to be fact driven.

“You want tighter standards for teachers. Who sets those standards? How can we be sure they are tight enough? Do we really need the same standards for an elementary as a high school teacher? Who decides?”

There is already a State board set in place that makes this decision. This board certifies not only teachers, but other professions as well. At some point, original teacher standards were derrived. And, I understand that some of these standards are being “loosened” due to the teacher shortage (ie: move from the PRAXIS I and II test to some other State-made test). My suggestion was that we should not be loosening these standards but rather upping them.

“Who decides what the right amount of pay for a teacher is? Where do these market incentives come from to attract good teachers? Businesses come up with more money by passing on costs to consumers. Will you just be stealing more money from me and my neighbors?”

No where in my suggestion was there to increase teacher salary across the board. This is another example of you not reading properly (guess we can blame your teacher for that). My suggestion was to have separate pay SCALES for the different levels: elementary, middle, and high. The net salary may very well be exactly the same, but the SCALES for each can be different.

“If we start paying teachers different rates, who decides how much? How much is correct? What if we are paying too much? How do we decide? Why is what they teach more important than how good a job they do?”

I never suggested to re-create the wheel. Again, re-read my post. I mention that there are other school systems across the nation that employ this type of pay for teachers. Doesn’t it make sense to evaluate “best practices” and see what they do? And, you (once again) try to bundle mutliple issues into one and (intentionally or not) confuse things. I am not at all combining pay scales issues with “pay for performance” issue.

So, I have now attempted to answer your massive quantities of questions, some relavent and some completely off topic. And, I still maintain that my 5 suggestions would help the State of GA a great deal while your idea of “free market schools” which really is not at all in line with the definition of “free market” would not work at all.

By MrLiberty

April 18, 2006 01:21 PM | Link to this

Robert:

Forgive me for stating what should be obvious to anyone reading our discussion, but you have not really answered any of my questions. Or, if you have, the answers only lead to more questions.

You still put all of the power for test selection with the board of education. Further, you don’t answer the question of how you make sure the kids aren’t being just taught to pass the test, rather than being taught to learn. You want accountability for schools, teachers, and kids, but this does little more than we have now, and we are hearing of abuses all over the country with testing, standards, etc. Forgive my pointing the finger at the schools, but the point I was making was that the system of funding, operation, and “customer service” is inherently flawed so it cannot succeed in the way a voluntarily-chosen, purchased service like private schooling can (or is forced to). You want the parents to care about how their kids are doing, behaving, etc. in school? Make them pay for the education themselves and have it in the contract that they forfeit all paid funds if their kid is kicked out for bad behavior, etc. That’s accountability of parents and students. You still haven’t addressed accountability of the schools.

You cite the current system of teacher accredidation and want tighter standards, but acknowledge a teacher shortage. You want better pay when appropriate, but don’t understand my point regarding how that is determined. Sorry I assumed you would need more money for better teacher pay or incentives. I had no idea that you would just cut the pay of other teachers. That should work well with that whole “we need more teachers” thing. Sorry to be so smug, but you are way off in fantasy land not dealing with reality. You act as though wishing something to come true will make it happen. People will not work for less without something in return, etc. So again, where will the money come from if you do need it. Businesses might not want to pay more for just the right person, but they don’t get away with cutting the pay of others to make up the difference (well, not often). They raise prices.

As for bundling issues together to confuse, I am sorry that you are not able to handle more than one at a time, but I am just rehashing some of the arguments that have come from teachers, administrators and the like over the past decades. This situation is very complex. It is way more than the central planning establishment of the government can handle successfully. That’s why things are so screwed up.

Here’s a big clue as to why your 5 proposals will not fix the problems - my questions. I won’t be the only one asking them.

And finally, I am not going to spend any more time rehashing the definition of “free market.” Yes, implicit in my plan is the presence of income taxes and incentives, neither of which is “free market” by definition. If we do away with income taxes even better, and then let everyone pay with all the money they now are able to keep from the government - but I digress.

By Robert

April 18, 2006 02:25 PM | Link to this

MrL:

Your questions present circular logic. Your questions involve multiple issues to which there is no single answer (which it seems that you want).

Funny most of all… if “educators” do not create tests for students, who should????? Maybe your local plumber? You really crack me up!