By Leia

March 30, 2006 08:18 AM | Link to this

My parents had the option of having me skip a grade (from 6th to 8th) in another state during the 70s and chose not to. Their reasons were mostly superficial - I was already the smallest one in my class and kind of sickly, so they didn’t want me to graduate a year earlier and leave home that much sooner! I was angry at the time, because several of my friends were skipped, but, it all worked out.

After moving to Georgia, I don’t really see kids getting skipped as much. Those who are skipped are usually the ones whose parents sent them to a private school for the first couple of years, just so they could come into public school a year ahead of their age-appropriate peers. The difference in maturity levels is painfully obvious - all the way through high school. Generally speaking, the students who skipped aren’t mentally ready to be in the next grade, especially the boys. And, it is a sore subject when everyone in a class is getting his license, and the skipped kid can’t, because he/she is too young.

If the student is academically and socially ready to go to the next grade - then by all means, do what’s best for the student, but, consider all of the ramifications. For example, when the student goes away to college and cannot hang out with friends because certain places have age restrictions.

By Zoe

March 30, 2006 08:51 AM | Link to this

I have a student that was skipped at some point. She is now 13 in 9th grade. She is the average age of a 7th grader in Georgia. She is currently struggling to fix in socially and is dating a wannabe thug. She is also failing several of her classes because she has decided it was more fun to skip and even when she was caught, she continued on her merry way. Now, she realizes there is a good possibility that she will fail several classes this semester and will be repeating them to stay on track. Her behavior is normal for a 7th grader, but she is not in 7th grade. If she is a 9th grader, she needs to realize she is expected to perform as a 9th grader. If a student is skipped, parents need to ensure a child is socially ready also. It appears this family is monitoring this and for that, I applaud them. But parents should not look at grade skipping as the end all and be all. There are other accomodations that can be made for gifted children that might be a better fit.

By Zoe

March 30, 2006 08:54 AM | Link to this

I forgot to add, I had a student last year that is currently a year younger than the rest of her class. She skipped kindergarten. This was the correct decision for her. She is currently 2nd in her high school class, is a three sport athlete, a talented artist and a member of several service clubs. Skipping is not a one size fits all option.

By SET

March 30, 2006 10:23 AM | Link to this

If Children have a higher IQ, and I’ve seen many who do - they should be accellerated academically. If 14 or 15 year olds can start college level math, sciences and language classes that is good. It bodes well for their ability to reach the docterate level academically which the majority of people will never do.

However all this creates dangers socially and physically. It is not a good thing for prepubescent children to be placed alongside pubescents socially - especially 13 year olds with 19 year olds. This would require a lot of proctoring.

On another level black children who try to excell would be accused of acting white and beaten or physically threatened by the black children who average a standard deviation IQ below the white average (85 compared to 100). Accellerated children are at least IQ of a standard deviation above the white norm, 115 and way up. This is not news to anyone. Excelling academically is reasonably seen by in the case of blacks to be a rejection on black mores and a threat to the other black children. They will attack such strivers. Only way around this is to physically segregate the high achievers from the others. That’s called “private school”.

And what about the mixed marriage kids? I have relatives with mixed marriages. When their children do well and are accused of acting white - they are half white!

The funny thing is that the African Immigrants who have made it to the USA are in many cases the very brightest from Africa. I have some African Immigrant In-Laws who went from working at 7-11 in the US as teenagers, to college, med school and medical practice. Another such In-Law made a fortune in Silicon Valley with her own company. They have children and I have nieces who are half African half “Negro” (and aggressive in academics) I also work with a Nigerian born Lawyer who went to public schools then Ivy League College and Professional School and heard his stories.

If you think I’m not politically correct - you should hear these people (real Africans) and what they’ve been through in American Public Schools. They are dark skinned… All their life they have to prove every day that they are not like the home grown. All their kids are in private schools to try to keep them safe while they pursue education like starving people at a buffet.

Accelerating minority students in this country creates great problems of safety and personal security (as well as the social issues). How are you going to protect them in a public school? You can’t. A public school is the lowest common denominator in most cases. At least the accellerated Asian and other kids only have to worry about the sexual/social problems.

Then the parents wind up with interracial dating situations because of the increased exposure to majority people and culture. Well, what did they think was going to happen?

Brave New World.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

March 30, 2006 10:37 AM | Link to this

If the child is emotionally ready, then skipping is appropriate. One of my closest friends skipped a grade, but had a lot of problems in high school. She was turning 14, when the rest were turning 16 and she could not date. That caused a lot of heartache between my friend and her parents.

SET - will there ever be a day, when you don’t bring up blacks as opposed to whites or some other race. I have a challenge for you, can you not mention race for the next few blogs. I truly need a break, for my sanity.

By SET

March 30, 2006 10:47 AM | Link to this

A follow up to the above. I believe that it is clear that IQ distribution like every other human attribute is not the same for each group. I believe that the reasons why this is true at this point in history are not important for this discussion.

There are fewer accellerated students in the Hispanic and Black groups than in the Asian and Jewish groups.

If you select and accellerate the darker minorities you may help them reach doctorate level academically. The trade off is that you will distance them from the mainstream of their own ethnic - even their own family. And you will be doing this during the formative years.

There is a real price to be paid for this.

It’s possible that some parents or families of these kids could decide they want their bright children to keep their mouths shut and their heads down. Because they don’t want to lose them. Maybe they don’t want their kids to go where they can’t follow them - physically or socially.

By Leia

March 30, 2006 10:58 AM | Link to this

Amazed - thank you, I’m with you! I am African-American and was deemed gifted and NEVER once got beat up by the other African-American students! And, ooh - guess what? I went to a public school!

Let it go, SET. You’ve been wounded and for that I am truly sorry, but, you do not speak for everyone.

By teach overseas

March 30, 2006 10:59 AM | Link to this

Grade skipping is only for the purpose of bragging rights among ill informed parents. While it’s very cute to skip a 5 year old into 1st or 2nd grade “My goodness, junior is SO advanced that he is reading at a 2nd grade level and his kindergarten teacher was not able to challenge him enough”. It is not cute to see an 11 year old in high school with 18 and 19 year olds. Why have a 13 year old trying out for sports teams against 15 year olds? Why are would you put your 12 year old daughter in high school classes with 18 year boys? Do you want your 9 year old girl to want to wear make-up and call boys because that’s what the other girls in her class are doing - who are 13? What is a good idea about a 15 or 16 year old going off to college? Or should that child stay home for a year or two before you drop them off at the dorm? Or perhaps have them live at home while going to college. That is the college experience every kid dreams of.

While you have to look at every situation individually of course, it is impossible for starry-eyed parents to see the long term ramifications of skipping little junior at an early age.

If junior is so brilliant at an early age- take out a book and learn Spanish together as a family, read advanced books with him, have him do science experiments in the kitchen, work on logic problems in the living room. There are so many things parents can do with small children. But it does take some effort.

By Susie

March 30, 2006 11:05 AM | Link to this

My best friend in high school skipped first grade. Her birthday was in April, so she’d have already been younger than everyone else. She had just turned 17 when she graduated from high school. She didn’t get her license till nearly the end of our senior year. Her parents didn’t want to let her go off to UNC-CH because she was so young, but they ended up letting her to after she was accepted. I guess it seems like a good thing to the parents for a kid to skip a grade, but I didn’t really see that it did my friend much good in the end, other than she finished school a year earlier than she would have if she’d gone to first grade.

My boys are very intelligent, but neither of them has the motivation to work hard enough to skip a grade. My daughter could probably have skipped first grade, she was very good in math and was reading Junie B. Jones books in Kindergarten. My problem with that is her age…she’s an August baby, and is pretty much the youngest kid at school. I didn’t want to push her ahead too soon and possibly get her in over her head, when she’s already the youngest kid in class.

By Denise

March 30, 2006 11:11 AM | Link to this

I skipped the second grade in a Georgia public school in the 60s and am now a practicing attorney. I give all the credit to my first grade teacher and my parents. Mrs. Nunnally (Allgood Elementary-DeKalb County) noted my boredom with the curriculum, and provided me with more advanced work. This, coupled with my parents’ determination that I read as much as possible, allowed me to complete the 1st and 2nd grade materials in one year. It clearly takes teamwork and devotion to excellance to educate a child.

By Susie

March 30, 2006 11:12 AM | Link to this

Zoe, that’s what I was afraid of, pushing my daughter (who is also small AND already the youngest kid in class), because a kid who skips has got to be prepared to be a year ahead of his own age group all the way through school. You can’t be “ahead” in elementary school, then slack off in middle and high school. It’s something that has to be followed through all the way through school. If the kid started slacking later on, it would be a neverending battle for the parents to keep pushing the kid to perform according to whatever grade he/she was in, rather than according to his or her age or level of maturity.

By LawDawg

March 30, 2006 11:17 AM | Link to this

I skipped a grade (kindergarten) and started first grade when I was five. The only time it really affected me was in high school, mostly with dating (I also was 13 in 9th grade) and driving. Also, I took mostly advanced classes in high school, so I was frequently 2-3 years younger than my fellow classmates.

I chose a small private college, which incidentally, attracted a large number of bright kids that also skipped a grade or two, and graduated at 21. I consider myself very well adjusted and I am graduating law school this May and will be a practicing attorney at 25.

I think that choosing to skip your child a grade requires careful consideration of your child’s individual needs, and that any blanket statement of whether its a good idea or not is just not appropriate in this setting.

By posterchild

March 30, 2006 11:21 AM | Link to this

I don’t think skipping grades was a popular policy when I was in elementary school (mid-80s through early 90s). Since that was the case, I had to go to a grade level higher class for math every day, and usually 2 grade levels higher for reading… which worked ok until I got into 4th and 5th grade. Then I was just sort of on my own. Middle school wasn’t much help, either. I got so bored that I would fake sickness a lot of the time to stay home and read. I got a ton of AP credit in high school and finished my undergrad in 3 years, so I figure I caught up with where I would have been in life had they just let me skip a grade. I suppose it’s a case-by-case issue.

By Carrie

March 30, 2006 11:23 AM | Link to this

I had an August birthday and that alone caused me issues through high school and college. I think that skipping a grade is a big mistake in most cases and I would even consider holding back a child that was just ahead of the cut off.

By BlindHomer

March 30, 2006 11:23 AM | Link to this

Denise, weren’t you bored again by 4th grade? Keeping the gifted from being bored to tears is the only good aspect of skipping grades, and I think the negaive social implications often outweigh that slight positive. It would be better to identify and channel gifted into gifted programs than just skipping a year. Otherwise, like Denise, thye are soon bored again.

By JBC

March 30, 2006 11:25 AM | Link to this

I skipped the 3rd grade when I was in elementary school. (in the 70’) The things I had problems with were: Being the only Brownie in the 4th grade, not being able to drive until I was a Junior in high school and graduating when I was 16. I couldn’t be in the work programs at school because I wasn’t old enough to get a job. Academically I did fine, but I’m glad I was only allowed by my parents to skip 1 grade instead of 2 like the school suggested. I was socially accepted being the youngest one in the class and didn’t feel any pressure to be “older” than I was. I just had to bum a ride for a little longer than anyone else!

By Susie

March 30, 2006 11:28 AM | Link to this

SET, I’m not sure how it works, but most of the people I’ve ever known who skipped a grade, did so in the very early years…by the time they get to high school, very few people, if any, will even know that they skipped a grade. I’ve heard of a few who skipped in middle school, but I think it happens more at a younger age, when there isn’t much of that attitude about education.

I think it’s sad that anyone would feel their kids needed to go to private school to keep them safe, just because they want an education.

Kids born and raised here (including many of us adults) don’t realize how hard an education is to come by in some other countries, and it sounds like the kids from Africa are busily soaking up the educations that their American peers are taking for granted at BEST.

By Susie

March 30, 2006 11:35 AM | Link to this

Thank you Denise…you are exactly right, I think that’s what I was trying to say, but didn’t say it right before…if parents want to skip their kids, they’ve got to be prepared to follow it through with them to the end of school. You can’t skip them and then just forget about it. You have to be able and willing to stay on top of their schooling all the way through 12th grade to make sure they stay at the level that you put them at, all those years ago when you skipped them.

I wanted to add that my friend who skipped was our county’s Junior Miss and went to UNC-CH and is now a pharmacist married to a dentist, living beachfront in Vero Beach, FL. (I could hate her for that part, if I didn’t love her!) :)

By Susie

March 30, 2006 11:40 AM | Link to this

Carrie, when I realized that my August baby was going to be so young starting school, I made up my mind that if she couldn’t handle it, I’d have held her back a year also before letting her start kindergarten. My oldest is an october baby and was always older than everyone, so this “youngest” thing was new to me.

Once she got out of pre-k and was reading(and comprehending!), I knew there was no holding her back. But I still wouldn’t have wanted to let her skip just because of her age.

By Susie

March 30, 2006 11:44 AM | Link to this

I think that the best thing about home schooling (not that I could ever do it, there would be bloodshed!) is that your kids can work at their own pace. They can move ahead as they complete the work for each grade level without all the crap that goes with that in a school setting.

That said, I’d rather have my kids in a school setting, unless it was just impossible to do so for some reason.

By SET

March 30, 2006 11:46 AM | Link to this

Leia is right, I don’t speak for everyone.

My family settled in CA in 1949 from St Louis MO. Eventually the entire extended family arrived by 1960. I was born in the mid 50’s in CA.

If we had stayed in MO I would have had a larger cohort of black middle class. I was never a part of my parent’s previous life. They lived in comfortable peaceful all black neighborhoods and went to all black schools. I have never seen such here. (Although I have visited HBC’s back east)

I only have my experience in this state. California is completely different than back east.

Please continue to post your experiences and how things unfolded for you in your parts of the country. All of us here need to read what has happened and what is happening in this country.

But consider my experiences seriously. CA was a great social experiment that has a habit of spreading. Are some of the things I speak of happening here occurring elsewhere nowadays?

I am not trying to say how things should be only what I live with here. I do say often what I think it would take to get conditions back to the safe and sane world that allowed my family and friends to go through public schools into the professions.

I think the door has been closed after we came through at least as far as the public high schools are concerned. And on this topic, I was an accellerated high school student starting UC Berkeley just before my Sr year of High School. Going to college in the afternoon and High School in the morning. There were 7 students of the class of 200 that decided to do this.

Yes I approach school politics with an eye towards policy impact on minorities because the majority can take care of themselves - they are doing just fine around here, thank you.

The minority teenagers are the ones in the news. And in my job I see lots of them.

By the way - are there more women than men on this blog?

Have a great day!

By Dawn

March 30, 2006 11:48 AM | Link to this

Hey All,

I skipped the first grade in the City of Decatur School system here in the metro atl area. I am no worse for wear from it. The only draw back is not being able to do the things socially with your peers since your’re really not their age…

And of course NOW they no longer allow “skipping” in that school system

By MrLiberty

March 30, 2006 11:50 AM | Link to this

Grades in general are a ridiculously antiquated way of both over-expecting and stifling learning in children.

I had the blessing of two parents who started my learning virtually out of the womb. I was speaking by 19 months and reading by 3. When it came time to put me in school, my birthdate in February meant that I would have to be a 1/2 year behind (Los Angeles school district policy at the time). Because my parents cared about my education, they put me in a Montessori school that didn’t have those mindless restrictions (yes, that meant we did without a lot of things - they had their priorities in order). Further, the school did not teach to “grades,” but rather made sure that every child had more than enough material to keep them busy. I went from there to a school for gifted children where I skipped 2 of their official “grades” upon entry and ended up in a class with kids 1 1/2 years older than me.

The multiple grades in each classroom that were present at Montessori, along with the appropriate socialization skills that my parents instilled in me allowed me to get along fine. I ended up graduating high school at 16 and college at 20.

Would I have done anything different? NO. Was it difficult at times? YES. So is having to get through life with only a crappy government education.

Education is supposed to be a constant and on-going process. There are not supposed to be limits, and everyone learns at different rates. Montessori set up a system that accomodated that, and for this I will be eternally grateful. Ask most kids today and they will tell you that they are either bored or behind when it comes to the crap they get in the government school system. Grades represent just another way to herd the cattle. They ulitmately put limits on the better learners and punish the slower. They allow no flexibility for those who excell in one subject while needing more assistance in another.

Government schools and unfortunately most private schools have adopted this type of teaching mode to the detriment of all of their students.

The beauty of homeschooling is that it provides exactly the kind of flexibility that every kid needs, and it is no wonder most kids do so well in this environment.

Stop asking the question of whether you should allow your child to skip a grade and instead ask why you would allow your child to spend another day in one of these government-operated prison/indoctrination centers.

Homeschool, homeschool, homeschool. Aren’t your kids worth it?

By Robert

March 30, 2006 12:19 PM | Link to this

Two big things stick out here….

By Robert

March 30, 2006 12:25 PM | Link to this

Mr. Liberty -

I take great offense at your sweeping description of “crappy govenerment education.” I went through public education and learned a lot. My elementary, junior high (this is what it was back then), and high school were very great places to grow and learn. My teachers were good and more importantly, my mother was involved and supported my education.

It is simply WRONG of you to characterize all public education as you have done. It is particularly offensive since you admit that you never actually went through/experienced it to any real extent anyway.

I am additionally offended because I am a teacher in a public high school. I have high standards for my students. The high school is regularly a top rated one in the State of GA and also in the Nation.

I am happy for you that your educational path worked out for you. But you simply do not understand that what may work for you may not work for others. So, do not project your experience onto other people!

By SET

March 30, 2006 12:36 PM | Link to this

Amazed..

I hear you. The thing is, race is the major force in educational policy around this state. Is it not so in your state? I will keep your point in mind.

Tell us more about the girl who was accellerated and the social/dating issue. How did it resolve? Did the parents anticipate it in the first place or blindly set the stage for the problem? Was the girl made to understand when she was first accellerated what the ground rules would be and why? What did the parents think was going to happen??

I still think minority children have special issues with acceleration or deceleration. Those issues can be deal breakers. That’s why I brought up the race thing. A majority child can blend in. If the minority child is. In a minority-majority school the problems may not be so acute.

I know Atlanta’s demographics - my siblings went to College there. There is a clash of experience between my west coast life and an Atlanta life. But I’m not Los Angeles or Orange County - they’re terrible!! (That’s a joke - I can make one!)

California schools are highly segregated along the academic poles. Maybe your’s are not because of your demographics? I’ve never known anything different. The higher achieving minority students were thinly scattered. We saw each other at Jack and Jill. 40 years later I still see those same people at professional regional and statewide gatherings.

MrLiberty: Homeschooling is here but not common or mainstream. Frankly both parents have to work and assortive mating means that Professional class Mommy has a $150,000 education with a $100,000 student loan balance. She has to work because the family needs the $100k + income she generates. Professional Class Husbands are not married to the girl next door with a HS or Jr College degree. Not anymore. They marry a professional school classmate.

Our housing cost have doubled in 5 years to one of the highest in the nation. Homeschooling isn’t happening here.

The middle class is going out and we have instead an upper and lower class with homeownership being one of the splitting points and education being the other. Education is far more expensive and the public post secondary schools have syrocketed tuition charges.

Accelerating students is now seen as a cost saving move. Especially with private school tuitions.

Brave New World.

By BlindHomer

March 30, 2006 12:51 PM | Link to this

Robert, we’re all sure you are doing a fine job. You must be since you are at one of the top rated high schools in the Nation (I didn’t know we had any of those in GA.). I had the opportunity to attend public schools, University School in Shaker Heights Ohio and Phillips Exeter Academy. Phillips was better, much better.

By Teacherf2

March 30, 2006 01:00 PM | Link to this

I’ll bite about the homeschool vs. government school issue. I agree wholeheartedly that we need more flexible learning opportunities for students. I also agree that homeschooling is the answer for many students, but it certainly is not the answer for the majority of our population. Unfortunately, the percentage of parents who are capable of teaching their students at the same level as certified teachers is quite small.

As for the skipping grades issue, I agree with the majority of you who say that it must be an individualized decision. I was a candidate for grade-skipping since I was reading at a fifth grade level by mid-year in the first grade (in the 70s), but my parents wisely chose not to follow the school’s recommendation to move me ahead of my class. I was already one of the youngest members of my class, and I was woefully inept in social situations until I hit high school. It was the right decision for me. Was I bored in school? Sometimes. But I had incredible teachers who allowed me to pursue my interests after I finished my daily work. Those teachers helped me grow at my own pace, despite the fact I was so “limited” by government schools.

By LG

March 30, 2006 01:13 PM | Link to this

My daughter is an October baby, and she is the youngest in her class. She started school in New York where the cut-off date is December 1st instead of September 1st. When we came down here, she was in 2nd grade when she should’ve been in 1st. She hasn’t had any issues with the age thing, and she’s a sophomore in high school.

By Becca

March 30, 2006 01:26 PM | Link to this

SET - I do appreciate what you have to say. I have been teaching in Georgia for over 30 years and everytime we have a ‘new’ program, it is a program that was introduced in California 3-5 years earlier. So keep posting and letting us know what is happening because it makes it way across the country and will soon affect us.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

March 30, 2006 01:28 PM | Link to this

SET,

Most would probably disagree with me, but race is not the driving factor around education in GA. There are clearly some school systems that are majority (one race or another), however – test scores are clearly being used to draw the race line. The communities are drawn up by income level, which reflects which schools are performing the best.

If you look at our test scores as they relate to higher performing schools, you will notice that minorities attending those schools are performing near or at the same level as the majority.

If you look at the test scores of higher performing schools that are of the majority, in middle to upper class schools in GA and compare them to lower performing schools that are of the majority in rural GA – you will see the similarities of low performing “Majority Minority” schools. Meaning poor whites are scoring at or near what poor minorities score. Also, their grammar is “as bad” or similar to poor minorities.

The young lady I mention earlier ran away from home a few times. The older boys tried to take advantage of her age, which made me a very protective friend. The teachers didn’t seem to care and didn’t do anything to help the situation. Most didn’t know that she was younger than the rest, until the problems started. She was not allowed to attend our Junior Prom, but did attend our Senior Prom. I don’t think her parents thought about “before hand”, the emotional issues of high school. She attended community college for 1 year and transferred to a 4-year University.

Also SET: the larger demographics of the black community do not have a lower IQ than the majority. Exposure is the key to success in this country. The more things or places you are exposed to as a child, the better your success story will be. Also, the “DREAM” – needs to be passed from parent to their children. If the parent doesn’t know how to dream, then they will not pass along encouragement to their child. I keep telling you guys and you’re not hearing me – there are millions of kids who have never set foot outside of their communities. They don’t know anything but what they see everyday and what appears on TV or the radio.

By inlove

March 30, 2006 01:43 PM | Link to this

There are pros and cons to everything. You have to consider what’s best for the individual and make the best of your decision. I skipped 1st grade and the teachers also wanted me to skip 3rd grade, but my mother said once was enough, plus I would have been in the same grade as my older sister. I attended public schools in the 60s and 70s and there were not any advanced studies for advanced students and I was constantly bored. I began teaching the lower classes when I was in the 7th grade as a replacement for substitute teachers. It seems I had learned everything the teachers had to offer. In high school I continued to be bored so I joined the FBLA program and began working at age 15. I had to lie about how old I was because you had to be 16 to get a job and without a job, I would fail that class. My teacher helped me by getting me a job at WAGA-TV5. Working at TV5 was lots of fun and made up for the boredom. I never identified with any of my classmates though. I was small for my age and being a year ahead was always fascinating for them. For me, it was just life. I graduated in the top 5% of my class (7th/200) and I have never gone back to a class reunion because I never really felt like I was a part of that class. Most of my classes were with students in higher grades and I never attended classes with my class level until around my junior and senior year. My social life was in no way connected with my public school life. Most of my friends attended private school. I have not suffered from being skipped, but I have suffered from the schools not having educational programs for advanced students.

By Nikole

March 30, 2006 01:45 PM | Link to this

Amazed, I agree with you, schools aren’t driven by race, but moreso by socioeconomic status.

By Leia

March 30, 2006 02:06 PM | Link to this

If you want to gauge how good or bad a school is - look at the percentage of students receiving free/reduced lunch.

By LG

March 30, 2006 02:09 PM | Link to this

BlindlHomer

There are quite a number of Georgia school that repeatedly make the top 1000 public school list - most Gwinnett County high school make it on the list.

By Robert

March 30, 2006 02:13 PM | Link to this

BlindHomer -

There are a number of public high schools in GA that are nationally ranked. I am referring to the USA Today ranking of public high schools. Some of the local high schools in DeKalb County that are ranked include Chamblee High, Lakeside High, and Druid Hills High. I am certain that there are others in the metro area that are also ranked.

Don’t believe the negative press. All public schools are not bad. There are good ones and bad ones. It is just that the bad ones get the publicity.

In my public high school, we had a student that got 2nd place in the SouthEast US (including Florida, GA, Alabama, South Carolina, North Carolina, Tenn, VA, etc.) in the Physics Bowl. He competed against students that were in public school, private school, and home school. However, where was the press for this “good news?” We also regularly get students into the top notch colleges such as Harvard, Yale, MIT, Duke, and others. In fact, I recently heard that one of our students now attending MIT got a full scholarship. But to read the press, you would think that our students could not even get into UGA.

By MMM

March 30, 2006 02:59 PM | Link to this

Robert, you have just deminstrated Amazing Woman’s point about Socio Economic Status. Druid Hills and Lakeside pull from areas that have houses 3x what mine in Dekalb cost, and Chamblee is helped by being fed the “high achievers” from the entire district. None of these schools are lily white—but the vast majority of students have either affluent or have highly involved parents. Not only are the most motivated parents ebowing in, but the savy teachers get themselves assigned there for the affluent, diciplined, involved students that that SES produces. So please explain what the SCHOOLs are doing differenly that are they “good” schools? They are LUCKY schools that take advantage of the material and motivational advantages that their location affords them.

By SET

March 30, 2006 03:34 PM | Link to this

Amazed:

The racial and international disparity of IQ distribution is so well documented over the last 100 years I won’t debate that it exists.

But we are talking about distribution. Any particular family or local grouping can go off the national norms, but the larger and more random the groupings the more the ethnic norms will show. And for individuals, anything is possible. Still, nationally, the children of black and hispanic doctors and lawyers as a group will average lower IQ than the children of white or asian blue collar workers. It’s a regression to the norm thing. IQ only refers to brain processing speed. Not books read, or subjects mastered. The IQ of 100 in normed on average white teenagers aged 16. So when published stats giving a minority ethnic group an agerage IQ of 85 we are talking about half of that ethnic group living in eternal childhood compared to a much smaller percentage of the other ethnic groups.

Those differences become magnified over the first 20 years of life. The right side of the bell curve can handle abstract reasoning and absorb new material (and stay out of jail), and the left side stops learning abstractly by 14 where they reach their peak (and need to start vocational training). They have lifelong problems with impulse control compared to the right side of the curve and have worse mortality & illegitmacy rates and incarceration & institutionalization rates.

Does this sound familiar? Up to 1960 the government wasn’t paying for illegitimate kids. Poor Kids had resident fathers and people had better controls. The laft side of the Bell Curve mostly went to work every day. Thanks to Congress and LBJ and the states we all-at-once had divorce on demand, endless welfare for all women (not men), skyrocketing taxes and every other diseugenic social policy. The results are all around us.

I am not saying that I like this state of affairs. I am not saying that with time, nutrition and cessation of government diseugenic policy that things can change. This will not happen in our lifetime. I am saying that this is what we are stuck with at the moment.

I don’t think you accept this - tell me why.

These issues produce real political problems in college admissions in CA. When we outlawed Affirmative Action it was thought we could keep the minority numbers up by using socio-economic status. The black (competitive) professional school admit numbers are now crashing towards 1%. But we have lots more poor and immigrant families with kids in state college and professional schools.

Our state bar just published an article on it’s website a month ago saying that CA Black lawyers have peaked at 1.8% of the total and are dropping, currently at 1.7% and falling.

Back on topic. I would like to see acceleration of bright students of all colors when they can be identified. Their families may have problems with this especially certain minority families because this can further seperate those students from their peers. It’s bad enough being different (smarter) when you are in your own cohort - being taken away to an older cohort can mean you can never go back to your old cohort.

And remember, in this state at least, the further you go in school the fewer blacks and hispanics remain in the schools. Even the High School Football teams get lighter as you get nearer 12th grade due to academic requirements forcing some students off the teams.

There are conflicting interests here.

When you have a child skip a grade you are setting in motion a snowball. Even one year can change the child’s life dynamic because you have shifted the childs peers forever. There can be unintended consequences.

Maybe California is different.

Brave new world.

By a high school mom

March 30, 2006 03:50 PM | Link to this

So many say that if a student has social maturity, then it is okay to encourage skipping a grade. The problem with that is a child may seem socially mature in the second grade, but may suffer in middle or high school.

I have three nephews with late date birthdays. The oldest was sent to school on schedule. He struggled along the way, both academically and socially. He was a gifted athlete. When he graduated from high school, instead of going off to college, he attended a prep school for the year. That made all the difference in the world. The other two were held back. They excelled academically and socially as well as in sports.

One of my best friends had a very late birthday. She was one of the brightest in our class. We graduated with a class size of 600+. Looking back, she did have a bit of a maturity issue with boyfriends and dating, but academically, she was right there with the best and brightest.

This is interesting because I thought the trend was to hold the kids back. My son, a ninth grader, attends public high school with many of the same kids from elementary school. A lot of these kids were held back from starting kindergarten by their parents. The thought was that they would have the advantage by being one of the older children in the class. To a certain extent that was true. However, some of these kids wound up in the elementary school TAG program. That, to me, was a total waste of taxpayer money. The kids were not gifted. They should have been placed in the appropriate age level class.

By Amy

March 30, 2006 04:20 PM | Link to this

I have a friend with a daughter whose birthday fell 2 days after the cutoff for Kindergarten. The girl was socially and academically ready for Kindergarten but ended up in PreK for another year. Today she’s in all the accelerated groups in her grade. I think children like that are a perfect candidate for skipping a grade.

As far as homeschooling, it is really nice to be able to allow the children to move ahead at their own pace. My son does math and reading above his grade level but his spelling is a year behind. When asked what grade he’s in, he goes by what grade he’s in at church for Sunday school.

That said, homeschooling is not for everyone. I have friends that I’m really thankful have not homeschooled because the kids are little monsters around the moms. School at least allows a little time when their children get some discipline. Also, it is hard work and takes a lot of time that not everyone is willing or able to do. I’m just really glad that it is becoming more acceptable for those who want to choose this option.

As long as you stay involved with your children’s education, they have the possibility of thriving no matter what school situation you choose for them.

By MrLiberty

March 30, 2006 05:00 PM | Link to this

I don’t need to justify my opinions about government schooling. The tests speak for themselves as does how we are doing educationally against the rest of the developed nations in the world.

I know a family with 10 kids and a $50,000 a year income that homeschools everyone of them. Magic? No, committment to their beliefs in a sound education.

I read nothing but excuses about why not and how homeschooling isn’t for everyone. These are just copouts. You have been brainwashed into believing that only “certified” teachers are capable of the job. They in fact appear to be the least capable. Statistics show education majors among the lowest scoring majors on standardized tests, and frankly most of the teaches I know got into the job for the summers off or the government pension and benefits. The great teachers that taught me mostly did not even have teaching certificates, but they certainly knew how to teach kids the most important lesson, and that is how to learn.

As for the unruly kids, maybe the fact that kids are taken by the government and daily shipped off to these prisons accounts more for their crappy behavior than the token few hours these parents actually get to spend with them. Given that government education is as much about denegrating the values and teachings of the parents as it is about indoctrinating kids to be “good citizens,” it is no wonder that the values parents attempt to teach have little or no impact.

As for the costs of it all, maybe if everyone who has a child would actually pay the real costs of educating their child, the rest of us wouldn’t have to pay so much money out. $1000 or $2000 worth of school taxes pale in comparison to the enormous amounts of money that schools districts waste for each child. Add more kids from each house and the financial burden shifts even further and further away from the real culprits. Property taxes on businesses must surely be passed onto the rest of us.

One cannot treat government schooling as just a choice, since others are being stolen from to make that choice possible for you and your children. Claiming that all of society benefits from a well-educated populace is merely a socialistic/communistic justification for the theft of these monies. Individuals benefit from education, and society benefits from the contributions of these individuals. To consider it any other way is to consider the importance of the collective above that of the individual, and that is simply un-american (or at least is was at one time).

Kids should not be held back from learning. Government schools cannot provide the flexibility that homeschooling can. Even without the ability (single parent, etc.) to make homeschooling a complete reality, there is no excuse for not teaching children at home to make up for the documented failings of government run education.

By jjones

March 31, 2006 08:54 AM | Link to this

I am an African-American and was skipped from the 5th grade to the 7th grade in Georgia. At the time, my parents did not want me to get skipped. Luckily, I was able to convince them to let me do so. I graduated within the top 10% of my class so I do not feel I was disadvantaged at all. 5 other students were also skipped at that time and we were all able to keep up with the older students.

By Robert

March 31, 2006 10:40 AM | Link to this

MrLiberty,

We can agree to disagree. The only major problem that I have with your opinion is that you are determined to describe ALL public education the same way and this is simply not true. Some public schools are excellent, and you don’t give them any credit.

And, you must also admit that ALL home schooled experiences are not good/positive. Some parents that insist upon home schooling actually do a dis-service to their children.

I can agree that all parents should be directly involved with their children’s education. If the children go to public school, parents should still know what is going on and also ensure that the student not only completes the assigned work but also studies.

By Robert

March 31, 2006 10:48 AM | Link to this

MMM -

The purpose of my post was to disprove the statement that ALL public schools are bad and that ALL certified teachers are bad.

One of the schools that I mention in DeKalb County have over 50% african american students and also have a majority of students that are on the free lunch program. These are NOT affluent students/parents/families.

You asked “what are these schools doing differently?” I will share this: a teacher came from a different DeKalb County school to our school this year. He was “forced” to due to low standardized test scores and so the County did this to all teachers of that department in that school. He came at the beginning of the year and was basically a ditto teacher (he made copies of work sheets and this is all the students did day in and day out). After a couple of months, he realized that this won’t cut it at our school (students and parents complained to the administration - please keep in mind that he taught general level kids and not the “affluent” ones). He was assigned a mentor teacher and had regular meetings with the department head. He has changed his teaching methods and has shown vast improvement. This is only one example of one situation that should help to answer your question.

By Susie

March 31, 2006 11:04 AM | Link to this

Robert, I know a few women who homeschool their kids, who can’t write a coherent sentence themselves. You gotta wonder how educated their kids are going to be.

By SET

March 31, 2006 04:18 PM | Link to this

MrLiberty:

I agree that homeschooling is more desirable that these monsterous inner city schools.

Susie: Yes it’s true that the homeschooling mother may have a lack of formal education. It’s also possible that her “students” may pick up her deficits.

But you have to consider that in many places in the USA the schools are so rotten that the students pick up lifelong bad attitudes and counterproductive political indoctrination. So it is a tradeoff between two deficits. Keeping children away from ghetto kids and the Marxist training dished out in many government schools can be worth other deficiencies. That is if you believe what is going on is Marxist and if you abhorr the ghetto and everything it stands for.

Isn’t is wonderful that we still have a choice? Parents (so far) don’t have to enroll their kids in schools they abhorr. The Amish don’t and I think there were Supreme Court cases over the years about them. Some people don’t want their kids being made part of this brave new world and want to try something different.

As long as it’s not a kiddie-sex cult, etc I support the right to choose. I believe Parents should have an obligation in state law to see that the Children have a fair chance to be self sufficient in the world. I don’t think they have to send them to schools where they are taught they have to love everybody and that everybody is a good and correct as everyone else.

Anyway the topic is accelerating students. Should the parents have the right to veto or force an acceleration or deceleration? Or can the public school just tell the family this is what we’re doing with your kid, if you don’t like it take him/her elsewhere? What does the group think?

By luvs2teach

April 3, 2006 12:02 PM | Link to this

I don’t think skipping a grade is the best answer, mainly because of maturity levels. What may appear to be OK in the elementary ages can becaome grossly inappropriate once puberty hits.

When I was in second grade, a new boy came to our school who had been skipped (mainly due to an extremely advanced ability in math). It was obvious to us kids that he was a little immature and (to us) a little weird.

He stayed in most of my classes through elementary and into junior high. He was often picked on (remember “cooties”? He had cooties as far as kids were concerned through out school). By high school this smart kid was on the verge of becoming a drop out. I switched to a new school, so I don’t know what happened to him, but I always think of him when someone brings up the skipping a grade question.

Related topic - I have to wonder if skipping a grade would even be considered if we had more flexible age groups in elementary school. Who said that a 6 year old should be a 1st grader? States have different cut-offs for entering school - each as arbitrary as the next. Think about it - you could potentially have kids 364 days - 1 day short of a full year - apart in the same grade because of when their birthdays fall.

We should be looking at maturity and ability and not just birthdays.