By V for Vendetta

March 20, 2006 08:19 AM | Link to this

I think the biggest problem people have with “zero tolerance” lies with the “weapons”. Kids who are suspended for writing “I want to kill everyone who makes fun of me” deserve some kind of punishment or counseling. Kids who bring a swtchblade, pocket knife, BB gun, real gun, etc. to school deserve to be expelled. Then there are the kids who bring a water gun to school. It’s common sense. But then again, there are a lot of other problems in our schools that could be fixed with a little common sense as well.

By oldteacher

March 20, 2006 08:40 AM | Link to this

We have had a couple of incidences here that have made me want to scream. On young man had gone on a Boy Scout outing the weekend before and still had his pocket knife in his jacket. It fell out - 10 days of suspension. One young lady brought a paring knife to cut up her apple at lunch - 10 days suspension. I think that every incident should be taken on case by case to determine why the ‘weapon was brought’. I’m not saying that bringing any knife to school is a good idea, but let’s use some common sense.

By Robert

March 20, 2006 10:05 AM | Link to this

The zero tolerance rule is a good thing…. if for no other reason to teach students that there are some absolutes in life. Too often, students ensure that they fall into a “gray area” between right and wrong and then the authority does nothing to them.

In real adult life, there are absolutes and students need to learn this!

By teach

March 20, 2006 10:19 AM | Link to this

Our principal had a salesman come to our school during our recent teacher “work-day” who sold us weapons for “self-defense”. He brought unloaded shotguns, hand guns, live stun guns, and numerous sprays. He sold us the sprays during work time. This was a required “continuing education” session that lasted almost 2 hours. I would like to know why we have a zero tolerance policy for students but not administrators and teachers? Why am I allowed to buy weapons on school property at a session that my administrator required me to attend during school time, but our students (who were in the building with parents at teacher/parent conferences) are immediately suspended or expelled? The whole system of education is really odd here in georgia. I need to move back to a state with a union!

By SET

March 20, 2006 10:22 AM | Link to this

There are no accidents.

Our schools lack of judgement and discretion and maniacial behavior is operating perfectly well if you see their true mission. They are not their to educate. CA public schools are here to indoctrinate.

Zero Tolerance is used to instruct that weapons are inherently evil - (they’re not), self defense is wrong - (it’s not), discrimination is evil (it’s not, and it should be practiced), and that whiners & bad actors must be accomodated (not so).

This policy is just one more plank in the brainwashing instituted by the left wing. In CA there is a bill in the state legislature to require new gay right standards to be imposed on all facets of school operations. (More than presently done in CA so you can imagine how ambitious this bill is.) I’m not anti-gay but I don’t think the world revolves around them. I’d fire a principal who can’t stop bullying or a teacher who turns away from it in progress, but I’ll not legislate special status or rights for that group or racial groups or religious groups.

It’s not about teaching or abour “security”. This policy is about policy.

Contrast this with certain private schools who have policy that “We will not lie, cheat or steal or tolerate those who do.

Would such a school suspend somebody for possession of Midol or Asprin in their containers? Would such a school suspend for possession of a swiss army knife?

I suppose these public schools want to condition the kids for jail or a totalitarian state. I’d prefer to have them in the private academy with the moral standards and a school marm that looks like Judge Judy.

And I’m afraid that the graduates of these schools will take a permanent back seat to the private elementry and secondary students. It used to be that the University Graduates got the goodies in life. My employer in 1973 told me they hired former Catholic (grade school) students as a preference because of problems with the local hires who did not go to such schools (And that employer was not Catholic).

In CA the grade school & high school you went to can become a big job issue. These political policies help make a mockery of our public schools.

By Becca

March 20, 2006 10:23 AM | Link to this

We had these people come in too. It started off being a self defense type of class and turned into a sales pitch.

By Nikole

March 20, 2006 10:32 AM | Link to this

Robert, I agree that kids should learn about absolutes in life, the problem is that all of the examples given DO fall in gray areas. You should absolutely have a consequence for bringing a weapon to school, or other illegal substances. There is a consequence in the real world as well. But the little nit picky things are not teaching anyone anything about the real world.

By mom

March 20, 2006 10:38 AM | Link to this

Zero tolerance is an escape hatch from having to exercise judgement. One of the results is that a student is now expected to endure a beating from another student. If you defend yourself (after being hit 3or4 times in the face) you are just as guilty as the person who initiated the physical contact. My child saw another child curl up into a ball as another child pummeled him, just so he wouldn’t get suspended for defending himself.

By CDog

March 20, 2006 10:58 AM | Link to this

An alternative to “zero tolerance” policy would be “as tough as necessary” policy. That would allow some common sense judgment on the part of school administration and faculty. “Zero tolerance” carries with it the air that weapons and self-defense are evil. It is more about political indoctrination than safety.

By james

March 20, 2006 10:59 AM | Link to this

i think zero tolerance is fine as long as it is adhered to. make it truly zero tolerance. never give a student a pass because they brought a knife to cut their apple. what are her teeth for? couldn’t the apple be cut at home? no excuse for a weapon of any kind. the machete in the bed of the pickup…if i borrowed a friend’s car and there was a gun under the seat, i don’t think the cops will say that because i didn’t know it was there i get a free pass. if a rule is instituted and the parents are informed, there is no reason for the child to break the rule. whether the parents and student agree with the rule or not. as far as mutual combat, self defense doesn’t give u a free pass either. an admisistrator doesn’t know what went on if they happen to walk up on a fight in progress. both combatants should be suspended until the truth comes out which will be hard to do trying to get the story from a bunch of kids.

By Robert

March 20, 2006 11:11 AM | Link to this

If we have a “tough as necessary” policy, then you have gray area. If you have any gray area, then there is room for judgement. If there is room for judgement, then you will have arguement over what is and what isn’t allowed.

The rule is simple and it is black and white. This removes any and all possibility of argument, period. The only arguing left is if it is a good rule. And, as I have stated, IMHO, it is a good rule.

A knife is a knife is a knife. It doesn’t matter if it is ten inches long or a half-inch long. And, if there is EVER anything in doubt (a toy gun vs. a real gun), the student/parent should bring it by the main office of the school BEFORE school and get clarification BEFORE the student brings it on to campus. Why is this confusing?

By Leia

March 20, 2006 11:16 AM | Link to this

Zero-tolerance at my school means zero-tolerance, unless your parent is a member of the booster club!

By Tommy

March 20, 2006 11:23 AM | Link to this

…there should also be “zero tolerance” for teachers and administrators who don’t give a damn about kids…this is a major issue, since the public school system is, and always has been in denial…

By Teacher Teacher

March 20, 2006 11:42 AM | Link to this

Zero tolerance is a joke! At a high school here in the metro Atlanta area, a particular principal ignored a student waving a knife while uttering a suicide threat, but, based solely on whim, searched another student, found a “weapon,” and threw the book at that student. Go figure.

By Robert

March 20, 2006 12:11 PM | Link to this

Tommy -

I agree that there should be zero tolerance for anyone in any position that doesn’t care about their job.

TeacherTeacher -

If you really saw your principal do this, then I would be sure that his boss at the School System level know it. This is your responsibility as an employee of the school system. If you do not, then you are as much at fault as the principal. You do not have to accuse the principal of anything but simply report what you saw.

By Robert

March 20, 2006 12:15 PM | Link to this

Leia -

If you have evidence to support your accusation, and if you are an employee of the school system, then it is your DUTY to report this to the appropriate school system boss. If you do not then you are as much in violation as the others!

By jim d

March 20, 2006 12:29 PM | Link to this

Absolutes, Robert?, ponder this.

Should a true ZTP include such weapons as pens and pencils? How about those dangerous compass’s, a piece of string or wire? Leave us not forget those nasty paper cuts, plastic sandwich bags, and what about those tire irons in the trunk of every vehicle in the parking lot? Books and book bags? Words? Nope, fraid not.

Appears to me that a lot of weapons enter our schools every day.

By oldteacher

March 20, 2006 12:47 PM | Link to this

And, Jim, everytime we talk about zero tolerance with weapons, my students bring up exactly those points. Almost anything can be used as a weapon.

By Robert

March 20, 2006 12:48 PM | Link to this

jim d -

Everyone that has ever read these blogs knows you and how stupid you are with your postings. There is no need to respond to anything that you write, period, end of discussion with you.

By james

March 20, 2006 12:49 PM | Link to this

jirn d, a tire iron isn’t a weapon. a compass isn’t a weapon. a piece of string isn’t a weapon. a knife is a weapon. a gun is a weapon. words of provacation “fighting words” as spelled out by georgia law, are a form of a weapon. a lot of weapons don’t enter our schools every day.

By Cat

March 20, 2006 12:57 PM | Link to this

I just returned from a middle school in Cobb county, getting my son’s suspension revoked. The teacher stated ….” The students had been out of control all day, and when I walked in the room, I had enough….” Zero Tolerance…..I think so….

By Zel

March 20, 2006 12:58 PM | Link to this

to

By Cat

March 20, 2006 01:03 PM | Link to this

Not to happy about it either. I had to make arrangements at my job for a backup to handle critical issues in my absense.

By a teacher

March 20, 2006 01:13 PM | Link to this

My history wasn’t always that “nice”, as you’re about to be hinted at, but here goes:

WHILE IN SCHOOL, I absorbed everything I could about how the military operates - particularly Special Forces. I trained myself in the art of killing, and my knowledge became immense. (And left me with a security paranoia that exists at some level to this day, even though my violent history has been simply history for MANY years.) If you ever see me in Atlanta or any unfamiliar territory at night, you’ll see me with my hands tight around my key with my key pointing out. Why? Even though my key is what, 3 inches long or so?, I know that I can sever a major neck vein, MAYBE even the trachea, with it if necessary. How many students drive to HS?

ANYTHING can be a weapon with the proper training. Most don’t have that training, but the basic concepts ANYONE can figure out. As others have pointed out. are we going to outlaw pencils and pens simply because they COULD be put through the neck? What about hands and feet? (Unarmed combat… trickier, but easily doable.)

I’m personally in favor ot ZTPs, but just realize that even with them security is a JOKE at best. (After all, they can only apply once the student is CAUGHT with the weapon. If the student is smart, the first time said weapon will be seen is when it is being used…)

By Robert

March 20, 2006 01:14 PM | Link to this

Cat -

I do understand your frustration, but I also hope that you would understand that teacher’s frustration. I don’t know all of the details, but I would hope that you have (if you haven’t already) a heart-to-heart discussion with your son regarding YOUR expectations of his behavior in school, to include consequences if his behavior does not meet your expectations.

By jim d

March 20, 2006 01:15 PM | Link to this

Old teach, I’m glad you get it. Too bad Robert doesn’t and what a shame he becomes so belligerent at being asked to think. But then it could just be the way I ask and my expectations of someone that is being paid to teach our children.

Indeed just about anything can become a weapon in the hands of someone looking to use it as such. That’s my point, zero tolerance can never really be 100 % applied. I do think at times school administrators go a bit overboard, but by the same token there are times they ignore things that should be corrected. It is not a perfect world, and all we can do is our best to assure student safety while they are in school. To be quite honest, I don’t think schools are really doing that poorly.

By Sugar

March 20, 2006 01:17 PM | Link to this

LOL, so the babysitter couldn’t handle the kids and the parents actually had to go to school - too bad.

By jim d

March 20, 2006 01:19 PM | Link to this

Gee James, A tire iron’s not a weapon?

Ever been hit with one? I think your opinon might change.

By Nikole

March 20, 2006 01:20 PM | Link to this

Because Jim is not allowed in the conversation, maybe you can answer this for me. Absolutes, Robert?, ponder this.

Should a true ZTP include such weapons as pens and pencils? How about those dangerous compass’s, a piece of string or wire? Leave us not forget those nasty paper cuts, plastic sandwich bags, and what about those tire irons in the trunk of every vehicle in the parking lot? Books and book bags? Words? Nope, fraid not.

Appears to me that a lot of weapons enter our schools every day.

James, if a student stabs another student with a pencil (like my little cousin did, because she was being bullied by older, bigger girls) it is considered a weapon. She was expelled from Cobb County for a year for it. Anything can be a weapon. The way a little boy at my school was swinging a necklace, got him suspended, as administrators considered it a weapon.

By Cat

March 20, 2006 01:31 PM | Link to this

Well Robert, I was pleased to know that the commotion was happening around my son’s desk and he was sitting in his doing what he was supposed to do…..but there were several other student standing up and playing……so she suspended 6 other students……Instead of investigating the problem Friday, they investigated it today and 8 other students stated my son wasn’t involved in the misbehavior. My point is, what happens to the other students who don’t have concerned parents, or parents who will get fired if they call in or are late……what happens to the innocent ones, like my son, who continually get suspended because of a “Lack of Tolerance”. I have a job that requires me to be a professional at all times….Not require, but demand. I have bad days…..but my superior’s would give me my walking papers in a heart beat if one of accounts called in and stated I gave them less than 100%….so regardless of what is going on in my day, I have to remain a professional……why can’t teachers do the same….

By JB

March 20, 2006 01:31 PM | Link to this

A knife is NOT a weapon. It is a tool. I carried a pocketknife to school every day from the time I was in third grade, as did most of my peers. I went to some pretty tough schools and I can’t ever remember anyone ever getting cut. Some desktops paid the price, sad to say: fifth grade love affairs temporarily immortalized until it was time to get new knife-proof desks.

By dan

March 20, 2006 01:38 PM | Link to this

It is not what it is but how it is used. A persons legs can be used as a weapon but they are necessary at school. Would i suspend someone for bring their hands to school? No. I would however have a zero tolerance if they used their hands to hit another student. I think a little common sense on this blog and a little less people trying to stir up the pot would be helpful. I think, no I know, that Robert is right about Jim.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

March 20, 2006 01:38 PM | Link to this

It breaks my heart whenever a child gets hurt, in school or outside of school. However, sometimes we loose focus on the true goal of our school system, which is to educate children. An education is not just reading, writing and arithmetic. It also incorporates how to get along with others, which is why there are grades for conduct.

I have too often seen adults, allowing children to pick on each other. I have seen adults picking on children. Which is how we have arrived at our “Zero Tolerance Policy”. We are now afraid that every child is out to commit a crime, with what use to be child’s play. I’m not advocating children, will be children and I am 100% for punishment. But, we must first look at how the adults respond to escalating situations: (1.) Janie is fat or is so skinny she could hula-hoop with a fruit loop. (2.) We think Paul is “gay” and the children decide to call him Paula. (3.) You’re ugly and ugly girl/boy can’t be apart of our group. (4.) You shop at Wal-Mart and only geeks shop at cheap stores. So, you’re not apart of the Cool crowd. (5.) When Sam was in 2nd grade he would “GO” on himself, but it’s high school now and his peers can’t help but to bring up his past.

I can go on an on with escalating situations, that we as adult could have put an ending too in elementary school. However, some parents, teachers and administrators do not seem to care where this type of situation can lead. We are to blame for bad behavior in children. I can’t say anything to a neighbor’s child when the child is acting badly, without the parent taking offense. I know teachers run into the same problem, but you own that classroom and the conduct allowed inside of it.

I was never allowed to tease other kids or family members; my parents did not allow it. I had a teacher when I was in elementary school that was fired, because of an escalating situation that took place in her classroom daily. It was about a young man who had a “Glass Eye”. The children teased him endlessly and it hurt me to see him hurt. The parents met with the teacher, but she didn’t take it seriously.

My point is Zero Tolerance may be a good thing, but we can be proactive as adults to “shoot” down (punt intended) even the remote possibilities of a horrendous crime. Many will say, that picking on other kids is part of growing up. However, I know many people who have yet to utter a bad thing about others and I teach my daughter “my golden rule”(Do unto others as you would have them do unto you and don’t become a part of the group who does things, you don’t want done to you.)

By Nikole

March 20, 2006 01:40 PM | Link to this

Today’s children do not use “tools” at school, or for most, at home either. A knife is now a weapon in a school building.

By jim d

March 20, 2006 01:44 PM | Link to this

Thanks Dan, We agree then that a certain amount of common sense should also be applied to ZTP’s, that everything is not absolute.

By katsuke

March 20, 2006 01:46 PM | Link to this

zero tolerance is still a problem all over the nation. it hurts more kids than it helps, kids being denied graduation over piddly stuff, negative school records passed on to colleges, etc. it’s rediculous. remember the roswell high girl that had her record ruined because she was stupid enough to take her journal to class. stupid, yes. worth damaging her college choices, no. another kid in washington state that made a derogatory website about his principal. he was a senior. the principal punished him and then wrote to all his colleges and rescinded recommendations. there was a big hearing and lawsuit because colleges revoked their offers. he won, but despite that the damage was already done. it’s like kindergarteners are running the schools, these “adults” seem to get off on their ability to get back at the kid’s when they do something they don’t like.
my kid had only one issue at school. never a problem in wa, but within the first month in ga schools, whackiness. a school bully hit him in the head with a basketball, and he reflexively said “I’m going to kill you.” exactly like you or any adult would say to another adult, playing, a means of ‘laughing’ it off (he was smiling halfway when he said it), without even thinking about the actual words, and moving on. multiple witnesses heard it, all of them said he didn’t mean anything by it, the bully even said she knew he didnt mean anything by it, etc. so, what should have been a harmless response turned into a huge thing and he was suspended. he spent the entire suspension playing video games and researching zero tolerance policies. specifically, why even kids with no behavior troubles must be very careful about their reactions (reflex or not).
if one sibling says to another at the breakfast table - “you ate my waffle! Argh! I could just kill you!” - is it worth punishment? I don’t think so. Context people, context.

By tammy

March 20, 2006 01:53 PM | Link to this

The day after Columbine, I walked into my highschool where I was teaching English at the time…only to see groups of students standing around, talking very somberly in very hushed tones. It was really rather surreal.

About 10 minutes before homeroom was to start, one senior had the audacity to show up wearing a black trench coat and carry two water guns. He didn’t make it very far, as the entire football team stopped him on a back hallway and held him there until an administrator showed up.

Did he mean anything “bad” about his stunt? Nope. He meant to be funny, but the memory of Columbine was fresh in every student’s head and they were not ready to see his humor.

While it’s easy to say that school administrators should use “common sense”, it also should be pointed out that there are many different sides of a situation that need to be considered.

The student in question was suspended for 10 days. Not so much because of the no-gun rules (possession of a water gun), but in order to protect HIM from the rest of the student body who was not in the mood to be messed with in the wake of such a tragedy.

By dan

March 20, 2006 01:53 PM | Link to this

Sorry Jim but I don’t think we agree. If someone brings a knife or any other thing that is is commonly used and considered a weapon by people with common sense then I think that zero tolerance should be applied. I think a message should be sent. What if something happens and the school didn’t use a zero tolerance policy? We would have a million blogs saying why did they let someone into school with a pocket knife, a pairing knife in the cafeteria, an ax in their car.

By katsuke

March 20, 2006 01:55 PM | Link to this

I can’t say anything to a neighbor’s child when the child is acting badly, without the parent taking offense. I know teachers run into the same problem, but you own that classroom and the conduct allowed inside of it.

Totally agree with this. Although, I’d add that if a neighbor’s child is misbehaving (and it’s something worthy, not piddly), I’d say something in a second to both the child and the parent. As an example, my kid made a new friend and this boy wouldn’t respect me when I said it was time to go home. He tried to argue. Unacceptable. I flat out told him the argument and discussion was not an option and if necessary, I will contact his father. He took the ‘hint’ and left. If it were my kid, I would absolutely want to know that he’s outstaying his welcome and attempting to negotiate his way.

By katsuke

March 20, 2006 02:01 PM | Link to this

” I think a message should be sent. “

What’s the message? In my eyes, it’s that kids have the least rights of anyone. They’re stalked in stores, they’re picked on at school (even by admins), their words aren’t respected, they aren’t respected, their futures are messed with, they’re not “innocent until proven guilty”, and finally, they get “special rules” that even adults don’t have to follow.

No adult would be jailed, suspended, or chastised for having a steak knife in their floor board after a house move. So, why are innocent kids who make the same errors?

By Cat

March 20, 2006 02:04 PM | Link to this

Amazed…. you took the words right out of my mouth…..so true….

By katsuke

March 20, 2006 02:05 PM | Link to this

Oh, and back to Amazed Comment.. I meant to add that if a neighbor got angry, then so be it. The anger will make the parent think and as long as they’re thinking about the problem, it’s getting attention. And, for some parents (maybe most?) if you’re that angry about it, and thinking about it that much, there’s a good chance you already know there’s a problem but don’t appreciate being told!

By HB

March 20, 2006 02:05 PM | Link to this

Zero tolerance is just a bad idea because it overules common sense. Example: my high school randomly searched classrooms and immediately suspended several students for 2 weeks with no warning for having tiny pocket knives in their possession. We had no idea they weren’t allowed. Why? Because as part of the new ZTP, the administration had posted signs all over campus with a list of banned weapons that included knives with blades over 3 inches. Silly us — we assumed that menat smaller knives were ok. But because the school had adopted a ZTP, the fact that the posted rules were confusing had no impact on the punishment, nor did the fact that at least two of the students had never been in any sort of trouble before (no detention, never late for school, absoluetly clean records).

Did the ZTP make us safer? Well, screwdrivers were not considered weapons, and one student stabbed another in the chest with one in the cafeteria one day, so in my opinion, no.

By HB

March 20, 2006 02:08 PM | Link to this

Zero tolerance is just a bad idea because it overules common sense. Example: my high school randomly searched classrooms and immediately suspended several students for 2 weeks with no warning for having tiny pocket knives in their possession. We had no idea they weren’t allowed. Why? Because as part of the new ZTP, the administration had posted signs all over campus with a list of banned weapons that included knives with blades over 3 inches. Silly us — we assumed that menat smaller knives were ok. But because the school had adopted a ZTP, the fact that the posted rules were confusing had no impact on the punishment, nor did the fact that at least two of the students had never been in any sort of trouble before (no detention, never late for school, absoluetly clean records).

Did the ZTP make us safer? Well, screwdrivers were not considered weapons, and one student stabbed another in the chest with one in the cafeteria one day, so in my opinion, no.

By jim d

March 20, 2006 02:08 PM | Link to this

Sorry Dan, I mistook you.

I was certain there had been enough examples of the misuses of ZTP’s posted on this blog to warrant using a bit of common sense. I’m not advocating allowing students to bring guns or knives to school, although we were allowed to. No what I’m saying is that many items enter our schools daily that in the wrong hands could be just as deadly as a gun or knife and that a certain amount of common sense should be applied.

By Leia

March 20, 2006 02:11 PM | Link to this

Robert - I went to and testified at the student’s panel hearing to have him expelled from school. I think my DUTY has been fulfilled.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

March 20, 2006 02:20 PM | Link to this

A case of bad parenting and zero tolerance.

I’m known around my neighborhood as the mom who does not allow disruptive kids on my property. I have a very large trampoline in my backyard and there is no room for out of control kids. So, I have had the opportunity to “tell off” a few parents. I had one parent to allow their child “according to the child” to come onto my property to play, when I am away. His parents are the worst kind they are too dumb to worry about him getting hurt, because they were more concerned about getting back at me. My daughter heard about it at school and called me at work to tell me about it. I came home early one Friday, took a picture and called the police. They moved!

By Susie

March 20, 2006 02:23 PM | Link to this

A knife is not a weapon?? Someone should tell that to Nicole Brown Simpson’s family.

By Chip

March 20, 2006 02:23 PM | Link to this

Katsuke, I’m glad that you can follow your child around to see what he does. Or are you taking his word for what happened? We almost always slat what happened in our own favor and parents who believe every little thing that their child tells them aren’t living in the real world. And his little friends will always side with him, especially if they don’t like the other kid or if they want to stay friends. I’m not saying that your child didn’t tell the truth, but since you were not there, you don’t know the whole truth.

Teachers ‘own’ their classrooms? I wish! There are many times when I have a problem and can’t get help from the administration but am not allowed to put someone out of the class.

By Susie

March 20, 2006 02:27 PM | Link to this

Katsuke, I know people say “I could just kill you!” and they don’t mean it, but I’ve never been able to allow my kids to say it…as a child my sister and I weren’t allowed to say it either, so it’s one of my little quirks I guess. It’s never had anything to do with zero tolerance or schools, because it goes back to my own childhood…I just don’t like the way it sounds. Maybe it’s good that I’ve taught them not to say it, because apparently saying that nowdays even in a half-heartedly joking manner can be labeled a “terroristic threat.” (rolling eyes)

By Chip

March 20, 2006 02:31 PM | Link to this

Seems to be a bit of ‘not my child’ on this blog today.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

March 20, 2006 02:41 PM | Link to this

Chip,

This is an observation and not an insult:

A person with an imagination can solve any problem - that includes owning the classroom. You don’t have to kick the child out of the classroom to solve the problem. I can’t kick my 11 year old out of my house, everytime there is a problem. It does take more imagination to get highschool students in line, but I would go toe-to-toe with a 200 pound linebacker - before I would allow him/her to walk over me.

Why is it that most find that the best way to solve a discipline problem with a child is to put them out of class? I can’t remember any students being kicked out of class when I was a student, unless they were involved in a fight or sold drugs. Kids would pick fights with friends, just so they could go home for a few days. Now, you can be sent home or out of class, for just about anything.

By Chip

March 20, 2006 02:52 PM | Link to this

Thank you for your observation. I have personally only had one student that I needed to put out of my classroom. When she stood up and called me the b word and said that I couldn’t tell her what to do. I was told (by the counselor) that they had just moved down here from NY and that this was the way they talked to their teachers up there. I did not accept that as an excuse until I was told to be quiet about it or get written up for refusing to teach a child.

By katsuke

March 20, 2006 03:15 PM | Link to this

Chip, Actually I trust my kid most of the way. And, yes, I’m aware that nobody trusts kids and people laugh when I say I believe my kid, etc. But I’ll say it again, I believe a kid can be raised to be honest. He was taught at an early age that if he’s truthful when he makes bad decisions, or does something foolish, I will always stand behind him. There will be consequences, of course, but he will learn from it and move on. All children will make mistakes, or errors of judgement, and all children must learn from those mistakes. Having a kid lie in attempt to hide the mistake, or prevent consequences, isn’t helping matters. It’s much more beneficial to have a child that trusts the parent will listen to their side, especially when so many adults will not, and know that they can rely on that trust. Children need to know that someone is on their side, and I firmly believe that dishonest children do not know that. Second, he has always admitted when he did something foolish and he has learned that the “truth will set him free”. Teachers frequently comment on his maturity, honesty, and independence. He has a very good track record, is very smart, and he doesn’t fool with the common mess that kids get themselves into.

In the case of the bully, though, he didn’t have any friends at that school. He was the new kid, mid-year, and the only white kid in his grade. He was completely alone as far as friends and this girl was bullying him. The other kids would fight all the time, on the bus, in the classroom, in the hallways, and so the school operated in a locked down (super strict, military-like?) mode at all times. Not an environment he’s accustomed to at all. We also found out that it wasn’t the bully who complained about what he said, it was the bully’s parents who were known bullies, and they bullied the school into the suspension without any notice, warning, or investigation with the class (ie, witnesses) about what happened!

Another example, in his current school. He and another girl were horsing around in Math. The teacher was absent, they were playfully arguing over whether the projector should be turned on or off. The girl leaned over his shoulder, smacked him lightly on the back of the head, called him a doofus (for not knowing what teacher said, hehe), and then went back to turning the projector on. Then, she started to lean over and smack his head again. He raised up his forearm to block her, at the same time she stepped forward, and clunked her chin into his elbow. She burst into tears. The teacher came back and the whole class is saying ‘you don’t hit girls! how could you do that!’ Teacher calls girl out into hallway, worried about her because of the crying. Later that night, teacher emails me that she had to write him up for hitting a girl. He says to me he doesn’t know why, he said they were playing around, she bumped into his arm, and that was all. Swears he doesn’t know why he’s in trouble. Nobody at school said anything to him, he never knew it was anything more than an accident. The next day, the principal gets statements from both students, the class full of “witnessses”, and says that the whole thing was blown way out of proportion. She said that both students were very mature and honest, and that it was an accident. And, of all the statements, the only two that matched were the girl and my son’s. So all the witnesses weren’t really witnesses, and instead were just feeding on the emotional drama of a girl crying. And, the girl didn’t hear him say ‘Sorry’ and she didn’t realize it wasn’t intentional and that she thought they were just playing around. The same thing he said!

But, when I first received the email from the teacher, I had my doubts whether he was being honest. I couldn’t understand how a “whole class was upset with him” and a “girl was crying” and he didn’t realize he did something wrong. Once the principal cleared it up, my trust in his honesty was once again, steady.

By another teacher

March 20, 2006 03:18 PM | Link to this

I’m from NY (Upstate). I went through K-college there, taught there (including substitute teaching), and my children went through 5th and 2nd grade. I can assure you, that is NOT acceptable in NYS to call any teacher names.

By Nan

March 20, 2006 03:31 PM | Link to this

As an English teacher in a local school, I have to say that I totally agree with zero tolerance. Yes, sometimes it can be ridiculous, and I believe that is where parents can contest the policy and hopefully recieve a just decision. I also know that a “just” decision may not always happen, but sometimes a rule has to be followed in order to protect everyone. When my children are in school, I will try to make sure they follow the rules to the letter. If they don’t, I expect them to be suspended, just like any other child. If you don’t think the rules apply to your child, just wait until your little angel beats up another child or writes a death threat. Won’t you feel wonderful? And in reference to the previous comments on how these rules don’t reflect real life - I completely disagree. Example: just try getting pulled over with methamphetamines in your car and explaining to the cop that it was your brother’s vehicle and you didn’t know? Are you kidding me? I think the biggest problem today is parenting. Parents have lower expectations for their children academically, expect them to be exempt from “unrealsitic” rules, and finally, they refuse to believe that their perfect children can do wrong. Believe me, they are kids, they are not perfect, they will do something wrong and that is why we need strict rules, such as zero tolerance.

By Susie

March 20, 2006 03:36 PM | Link to this

Katsuke, I believe also that kids can be brought up to be honest people…I also believe that if a kid thinks they can get away with lying to get out of trouble, they’ll try it. All three of my kids at one time or another, have lied to me, been caught in their lies, and paid the consequences for lying. (and the stupid thing is, the lies were about silly things that really didn’t matter!) They are just kids, they have to learn some things the hard way…They are learning that being honest works out better for them, even if they slip from time to time. But that doesn’t mean that I think they’d never lie again, if they think they can get away with it.

What I’m hoping is that by teaching them to be honest now, they will grow up to be honest adults. Right now they are kids and kids will try to get away with anything, if they think they can, but I hope they’ll take what we are trying to teach them with them when they grow up and leave home. That’s when they will need their upbringing, when their parents aren’t there watching over them!

By Chip

March 20, 2006 03:37 PM | Link to this

Another teacher, don’t worry, I knew that wasn’t true when it was said. Actually these kids came from the streets of NYC and did have a hard life. Their mother died from AIDS a couple of years after she sent them here to live with relatives. I still did not accept being called the b word and she did later say that she was sorry. But to this day I have a letter in my file.

katsuke, I pray that you are right about your child.

By katsuke

March 20, 2006 03:40 PM | Link to this

Susie, Yes I agree. It wasn’t something I put much thought into before, though. There was more to it, after the fact. Because he had only been in school about 1 month, his last school called the principal to vouch for his record. They ended up reducing his suspension from 10 days to ‘time served’ (2 days). They said that making terroristic threats would not be added to his record and they would not report the incident to the school police officer. The principal of discipline apologized for the way it was handled, no notification, no history, no discussion with class, no discussion with parents, etc. They initially said he was being suspended for making “terroristic threats”. I don’t know what effect the former school had on the principal, but I know something significant changed between the Thursday he was suspended and the following Monday. This was also our first experience with someone titled “Principal of Discipline”. When we first moved here, we couldn’t that schools had to have staff members specifically devoted to discipline!

I spoke with one of his former teachers on the matter and the principal to learn the details, but other than that there was no discussion and there definitely wasn’t any investigation or hearing. Getting suspended in elementary school isn’t a huge deal and he did indeed say the words. Plus, like I said, it was a learning experience for him.

By katsuke

March 20, 2006 03:57 PM | Link to this

Susie, agree about the honesty bit too. I don’t believe he will never lie. I’ve never said anything like that. Anytime a parent shows any faith in their child’s behavior, they’re assumed to be naive, pushovers, or idiots. This is what I’m referring to when children aren’t even given the benefit of doubt before being chastised. Kiddo knows the consequences will be far worse when he lies than when he doesn’t and worse, effects will last much longer (loss of trust). It has always worked to his advantage to tell the truth, so why lie? And, when I say ‘lie’ or ‘dishonest’, I mean simple deceptions too. In 1st grade, he wanted to go to a neighbor’s house to pull the kid out to play. I said No, I didn’t want him asking them out to play because they’d already been playing together most of the day and the kid had to go home. So, what does my little rascal do? Gets another neighbor kid to knock on the first kid’s door so the other kid can ask the first kid to come out and play! Yes, he obeyed my rules, but it was still deceptive. By no means am I saying he’s perfect, or would never lie, but the majority of time I do trust what he says (within reason) until he’s proven unrealiable or deceptive.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

March 20, 2006 04:02 PM | Link to this

katsuke,

The only problem I have with your reasoning about your son getting into trouble, is that they were just horsing around. The entire incident could have been avoided had they “not” been horsing around.

It’s like saying it’s okay, because it was not intended. What if something more serious had taken place, like a loss of teeth?

I’m not so sure a medical bill would be considered horse “PAY”. Most serious accidents happend during horse play.

By katsuke

March 20, 2006 04:18 PM | Link to this

Nan, Some crimes will always merit consequences. The example you gave is drugs in your car, I don’t think anyone would argue that necessitates an immediate expulsion. Those consequences were common sense before ZT. The question is, when referring to ZT, have we gone too far? Does ZT give overzealous admins a means of simply ‘doing away with a child’ and not educating them? A means to abuse their positions? When children are suspended and expelled for colorful water guns, steak knives in their trunks, nail clippers with a file, playing cowboys and indians, drawings of a gun or a shootout, paper folded guns (and again, playing cops and robbers with them), dreams in a journal, etc - haven’t we gone too far? And, when has an adult, in real life, been held to similar ZT rules? I could draw a gun, a bomb, and such on my whiteboard right now at work. I could open a testcase (for research) and name the company Katsuke’s Gun Factory without any repercussion. People would probably laugh and think I’m getting more creative in my work. I can bring in a super long nailfile, carry nail clippers, some of my coworkers have darts and waterguns at their desk, etc. When a kid wants to do a project on medieval weaponry in 5th grade (another kid, not mine), why does the teacher say No? Is it not educational?

By Rick

March 20, 2006 04:19 PM | Link to this

A ZTP sounds fine in theory, however being that we’re all humans, and we all make mistakes, realistically it cannot ever do what it’s intended to do unless there is some realistic “rules”, not just arbritrary “intrepretations”. Anything can be construed as a “weapon”, anthing can be intrepreterpreted as a “threat”. In the adult world you have to make judgement calls, we are not teaching our children that by this ridiculous “example” setting attitude. That just teaches our children that the adult world is more insane than theirs. That’s the “real” example it set’s. I think the GA education system needs a little “growing up” to do IMHO.

By katsuke

March 20, 2006 04:26 PM | Link to this

Amazed, Yes, he got in trouble with me for horsing around, not minding his own business, and not making more of an effort to apologize. He said he was sorry when she crying, she didn’t hear him. If someone is crying, you should offer to take them to nurse office to see if their parents need to be called, etc. He could have put more effort into the follow-through.
Both kids should have received discipline referrals and the teacher agreed once it was all said and done. If they had been in their seats minding their own business, none of it would have happened. But the principal decided it was all way exaggerated and that both kids had learned a lesson just by going through the motions of the investigation and no further punishment was necessary.

Hehe, it’s all fun and games until someone loses an eye?

By Nan

March 20, 2006 04:53 PM | Link to this

katsuke - you apparently didn’t understand what I posted. In the real, adult world, an adult would suffer the consequences for drugs in a car becasue our laws state that there is a zero tolerance policy for possessing them. Therefore, a zero tolerance policy in school is a real world example of how societal rules do work. Second of all, we are talking about children. I’m sure that you may be able to take those items to work, but you are also an adult and should better understand what is acceptable behavior and what is not and you hopefully understand possible consequences for your actions. Many children, at any age, can not fully understand longlasting consequences. Finally, as a teacher, I expect a safe work environment. As a parent, I expect a safe school environment for my children. Thirdly, I expect any idiot out there to understand that no knives means no, and so on on and so forth. No means no. If you or your child can’t deal with a firm no, then consider homeschool. Also, as an afterthought, questioning why kids are getting in trouble for journals, paper and toy guns, and threats is a good question. My answer is? Kids shouldn’t be be exposed to tv or adults that show violence and encourage such things. Kids and guns, death threats, and weapons simply do not go together. If a child is displaying these behaviors, then immediate attention is required to curb the behavior and to hopefully make parents more aware of what their child is exposed to, hence the neccessity of zero tolerance. HOWEVER - don’t get me wrong. I never said it was a perfect system. But, I will support a system that is too strict any day over one that is too lax. The price for being lax is simply too high. Period.

By Lee

March 21, 2006 08:34 AM | Link to this

By now, we have all heard of abuses of ZTP such as the Eagle Scout suspended for having a camp axe in his truck, or the Honor Roll student suspended for having a Tylenol in her purse, or the 9 yr old girl suspended for the infamous Tweety Bird keychain.

There’s an old adage that says “a weak man likes a lot of rules.” Why, because with rules, he doesn’t have to think or make a decision. He simply points to the rule and says that “his hands are tied.” Actually, Robert, in his earlier post, illustrated this when he said “…you have any gray area, then there is room for judgement.” I ask, what then are we paying these high priced administrators for, if not to make a judgement?

I think everyone forgets that public schools are run by government bureaucrates. I hesitate to use generalities, but bureaucracies tend to hide incompentency.

A couple of years ago, my nephew was attacked by a school bully. My nephew defended himself and was suspended. The teachers who broke the fight up never asked who started the fight or what happened. The Principal never asked what happened. He just suspended both for 3 days. You see, if they try to find out what happened, then they would have to make a decision. It is much easier to hide behind a no fighting policy than to make a decision - a decision that we taxpayers pay them to make.

When I was in school, a teacher broke a fight up, he asked what happened. If it could be determined that one student was clearly the aggressor, he was dealt with.

Bottom line, ZTP are a smoke screen to make the uniformed think that the administration is doing something. It is also to protect the school system because it knows that they have incompetent administrators in postions of authority who have no business being there.

By oldteacher

March 21, 2006 08:39 AM | Link to this

I understand the frustration that many people have over both parties being suspended due to a fight. However, each child will tell you that the other started it and their friends will back them up. Unless an impartial adult sees the fight, who knows. I tell my students that only a coward starts a fight at school because they know that the adults will break it up for them.

By Lee

March 21, 2006 08:42 AM | Link to this

One other thing, when I was in school, I carried a pocket knife from the first grade through graduation. Just about every male student did. We never had anyone involved in a knife fight either. During deer season, just about every pickup truck had an old 30-30 or shotgun in the gun rack. Never had any problems with it.

Today, a kid draws a picture of a gun and the administration goes into convulsions. In a recent post, I read where alleged teachers thought a student should be suspended for having a gun magazine.

Bottom line, anything can be used as a weapon. I always found it ironic that a set of fingernail clippers would get you suspended but a visiting ball team (strangers) could come on campus with ball bats.

For you administrators out there, this country was founded on ten simple rules (hint: go by History class and ask about the Bill of Rights). Schools don’t need a 30 page manual of rules. And while you’re at it, try to use some common sense…

By Lee

March 21, 2006 08:52 AM | Link to this

Oldteacher, the frustration is not that both parties were suspended. The frustration is that the schools do not even attempt to find out what happened. The teachers and administrators are taking the easy way out and hiding behind these arcane rules. Our children and we taxpayers deserve better.

Back in my day, there was an unwritten rule that whoever threw the first punch, got the licks (with a paddle, that is…).

By oldteacher

March 21, 2006 10:32 AM | Link to this

Back in my day too, kids did not lie so much for each other so it was easier to get to the truth. I do think that the administration should try to get to the bottom of who started what. And I agree about sparing the rod and spoiling the child. Many of today’s children were never punished so with many, it is too late to start. I don’t believe in beating a child, but a hickory goes a long way.

By katsuke

March 21, 2006 11:22 AM | Link to this

Lee, well said. I actually don’t mind that both kids are suspended these days. I think that a more creative/intelligent kid will find a way to avoid that escalation (of a physical fight). And, if they can’t, then they have that off-time to sort it out without affecting the other students. There should be an investigation to determine the source of the trouble. You want to prevent it from going further, find out if there’s a long-standing issue, etc. But, I strongly disagree with spankings in schools. IMO, that is squarely a parent’s job. And, schools may argue, the parents don’t do it so the school has to. I strongly disagree that the solution to perceived neglect is for the school to take over. Too many admins don’t make wise decisions in regard to punishment. I’d never hand over responsibility to them for discipline, feeding, care, housing, and even teaching. A parent is the child’s first and most important teacher. Back in my day, when a teacher locked a kid in a closet, she lost her job. And, if my mom was called to the school, I knew my butt would be sore by the end of the day.

By oldteacher

March 21, 2006 11:50 AM | Link to this

If a teacher ever locked a kid in a closet, he/she deserved to lose their job.

By katsuke

March 21, 2006 12:22 PM | Link to this

I can assure you a teacher did and she did lose her job. Afterall, I was the kid and I was talking too much. Disciplines rules are necessary, but Guidelines which allow room for Common Sense are much more important. But the second a teacher ever threatons to place my kid in a closet or spank his bottom, will be the second I’ll be at the school reminding them who’s the parent.

By Jeff

March 21, 2006 12:33 PM | Link to this

I’ve actually considered building a closet to put kids in, based on designs for autism treatment. The closet would be made of clear plexiglass with walls between 1.5 and 2 feet thick, filled with water. On the interior would be a desk, a fan in the ceiling, a videocam, mic, and tv set. The videocam and mic would be attached to a tv set on the outside for monitoring purposes, and the tv would allow the student to know what I was doing in class. The whole design is to allow a place to cool down in an isolated but monitored method. No locks on the door, but it would be a policy that when you’re misbehaving you have two choices: go in and calm down or face whatever the appropriate consequence is for your action.

By Jeff

March 21, 2006 12:33 PM | Link to this

I’ve actually considered building a closet to put kids in, based on designs for autism treatment. The closet would be made of clear plexiglass with walls between 1.5 and 2 feet thick, filled with water. On the interior would be a desk, a fan in the ceiling, a videocam, mic, and tv set. The videocam and mic would be attached to a tv set on the outside for monitoring purposes, and the tv would allow the student to know what I was doing in class. The whole design is to allow a place to cool down in an isolated but monitored method. No locks on the door, but it would be a policy that when you’re misbehaving you have two choices: go in and calm down or face whatever the appropriate consequence is for your action.

By Jeff

March 21, 2006 12:34 PM | Link to this

I’ve actually considered building a closet to put kids in, based on designs for autism treatment. The closet would be made of clear plexiglass with walls between 1.5 and 2 feet thick, filled with water. On the interior would be a desk, a fan in the ceiling, a videocam, mic, and tv set. The videocam and mic would be attached to a tv set on the outside for monitoring purposes, and the tv would allow the student to know what I was doing in class. The whole design is to allow a place to cool down in an isolated but monitored method. No locks on the door, but it would be a policy that when you’re misbehaving you have two choices: go in and calm down or face whatever the appropriate consequence is for your action.

By Jeff

March 21, 2006 12:38 PM | Link to this

sorry for the multi-posts!