Get Schooled

By Tiffany

March 10, 2006 11:31 AM | Link to this

Great. 1. Will they provide the same standards for doctors? If they only mess up one or two surgeries a day, then they won’t be held accountable?

What about case workers? If they just forget about a couple of kids being abused, but remember most of them, this is ok too?

What about journalists? If they get some stories right, but give completely false information if they are having a lazy day, this is fine right and no accountability factor is considered?

Great message being sent as we try to mature our youth into the real world. Wow, Georgia is really improving the quality of our graduates. Increasing the actual # of graduates by lowering the standards is not actually IMPROVING the quality of our education, but instead is drastically lowering what Georgia puts out there. Sad, and irresponsible.

This really magnifies the national perception of Georgia education.

By Zoe

March 10, 2006 11:40 AM | Link to this

The GHSGT as it is needs to be discarded. The content on Social Studies and Science is “Jeopardy” style knowledge and to ask a student to remember content from 3 years ago is a little much. The tests do not accurately reflect the knowledge a student should have after exiting the course, not that the EOCT does much better. There is no good solution. I would like to see just how many questions a student needs to get correct to actual pass these tests.

By BlindHomer

March 10, 2006 11:52 AM | Link to this

God bless Peggy Nielson. Kathy Cox should have stood with her and tried to raise the bar for a change. Notice that the poor girl got 499 the first time, meaning she’s done worse on the retesting. Probably won’t come close to 500 now with all that performance anxiety. However, Nielson just asked that they be made o try again, nothing wrong with that. I suspect they will all get diplomas, everyone else did, whether they pass or not.

By George Tillery

March 10, 2006 12:30 PM | Link to this

Everyone has a bad day now and again! Some people test better than others, but that dosen’t mean that their any smarter, wiser , quicker, or intelligent than others. Everyone has their strong suits. Some relish the challenge, some don’t !ECT! Students are allowed to take the SAT more onece, why not the graduation test. Experence is everything!!!!

By Tom

March 10, 2006 12:31 PM | Link to this

Did the original cut-off score take the Standard Error of Measurement into consideration? If so, it is not an issue.

By high school teacher

March 10, 2006 12:41 PM | Link to this

I am so ambivalent on this issue… Objectively speaking, I can say, “That’s too bad. Have a nice life trying to get a job with your certificate of attendance.” However,…It is absolutely heartbreaking to have a teary-eyed junior or senior enter your classroom and tell you through tears that he failed the science test with a 499. We’re not talking about case workers, doctors, or journalists, we’re talking about kids.

I am all for raising standards. But these Trivial Pursuit tests don’t raise standards or measure raised standards.

I had a education professor who told me that each teacher’s SEM was 3 points. A student should never fail a class with a 69; there is a 3 point SEM. How can a student’s diploma hinge on one point on one of five tests?

A kid can’t serve in the military without a high school diploma. Are we going to deny someone the opportunity to serve his or her country because of one point on a test?

By high school teacher

March 10, 2006 12:49 PM | Link to this

OOPS! Make that “an” education professor.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

March 10, 2006 12:52 PM | Link to this

It’s hard for me to believe that the high school graduation test is too hard for any student to pass, given the standards for elementary and middle school testing.

I do agree, that it’s hard to remember information learned from 3 years ago. Maybe the test should be a tier level testing, where you take certain parts of the graduation test upon completion of certain grades.

For example: if the highest level science section of the graduation test is Biology and it’s usually taken in 10th grade, then the science section of the high school graduation exam should take place at the end of 10th grade.

I also believe that a review class should be offered, for things on the test that were covered in earlier grades.

By hs sped

March 10, 2006 01:22 PM | Link to this

The SEM is often times used to put students into special education, that really don’t need to be there. The slow-learners will always be among us, but let’s not call them Specific Learning Disabled. True, high school teacher, it’s awful when the kids fail one (or all) of the graduation tests by mere points. I see it all the time as well. But where does one draw the line? If it’s lowered now, won’t someone throw a fit, call a lawyer and have it lowered once again?

By English Teacher

March 10, 2006 01:24 PM | Link to this

Well, if the science teachers would just do a better job, we wouldn’t have this problem. Ninety-eight percent of my students pass…find me a science teacher who can say that.

By BlindHomer

March 10, 2006 01:36 PM | Link to this

The concept of graduation tests is bad to begin with, I never had any. If you pass all the classes required for graduation, you graduate.

By high school teacher

March 10, 2006 01:38 PM | Link to this

hs sped, I know that a line has to be drawn somewhere; that’s the whole purpose of the test. However, I also know several Certified Public Accountants who are practicing and only passed 3 out of the 4 sections on the test.

Jim D, where are you today? I’d love to know your feelings on this matter (though I think I know where you stand)!

By Beck

March 10, 2006 01:56 PM | Link to this

English Teacher,

I teach Social Studies and have helped to do remediation and testing for the graduation test both during the summer and the regular school year for the last 6 years. While I agree that there are many teachers who could improve their students learning, the science portion of the graduation test is SIGNIFICANTLY harder than the English portion. Also, a few years ago Georgia Tech professors went so far as to point out flawed question and answer choices on the Science GHSGT. Those very same questions remained the following year. The simple truth of it is that comparing the English test, or the Math test for that matter to the Science test is like comparing apples to oranges. That is one of the reasons why SO many more students fail the Science portion of the test.

By Zoe

March 10, 2006 02:02 PM | Link to this

So it is a student’s fault if s/he has a bad teacher? Is it fair to the good teacher to have a class of 30 students because everyone transferred to her class while the bad teacher down the hall has 20? I’d hate to have a child fail because s/he had a long term sub that had a degree in business rather than science. And yes, it happens all the time.

By MMM

March 10, 2006 02:07 PM | Link to this

I can see both sides. What I would have suggested was that we told these kids that they would be allowed to graduate AND that they need to take the test one more time just for themselves.

Given the clear anguish and additional tutoring that has resulted in LOWER scores it seems that performance anxiety is happening here. If these students meet the criteria of the rule, they should know that they will be able to get a diploma. Then let them try one more time with the pressure off. Then let us see whether “high stakes” is producing “high learning”.

There is benefit in striving until you finally do it, but the increasing pressure of the last four trys will only be greater on the 5th. The state board could have accomplished everyones needs with a little “outside the box” thinking.

By Nel

March 10, 2006 02:20 PM | Link to this

MMM, I agree with you on this one. If this child has been offered scholarships and the schools are willing to accept her with the test scores, along with her academic record, they should be the final arbiter. Why have her do it and possibly fail again under the pressure because her future is riding on this one point. I thougt we were supposed to be encouraging kids to go to college. As said before, no two people test exactly same way. Some take tests in stride other totally wig-out.

By Nel

March 10, 2006 02:21 PM | Link to this

Jim D’s been missing for a couple of days and it would be intersting to get his input.

By SET

March 10, 2006 03:29 PM | Link to this

Yes there has to be a line drawn and if the student doesn’t meet the requirements the diploma should be denied and they should not be allowed to set foot on the stage at the graduation ceremony.

The students with incomplete requirements should be encouraged to make up the missing requirements or retake the graduation test at summer session or a adult school.

The requirements should be openly published and the students allowed to work the requirements off over the 4 years of High School. I’m not advocating the type of high stakes testing where the student must pass every element of the testing in a single session in one or two attempts.

If you are off by one point, too bad, so sad.

The High School Graduation tests I have in CA and have heard of elsewhere have been deliberately set very low, usually at 9th grade level or less for math and verbal. They will normally flunk only 20% or less of the “graduating” class - with normal IQ students passing by the time they have reached 10th grade (as you’d expect for a 9th grade level test).

I have no pity for those who can’t pass a 9th grade exam by 12th grade and 5 attempts. Let them begone or get the diploma in adult school or GED or something. The real issue is why they were ever allowed into 10th grade in the first place.

Your tests may be different. Maybe they have a higher bar. We have no science requirement for our High School exit exam. Maybe we need one if GA has it. Why should our state give diplomas to a student when GA won’t?

Here when a child is in trouble there were warnings for years and there was plenty of time to get to the HMO and get that ADD treated with an Rx. And there was summer school and tutoring. And with our new state medical plans every child (of the working poor) qualifies for health care at 5 or 10 dollars a month if they don’t get it for free on welfare. The adults here go without health care if they are working poor (say under $30k a year!).

If the child can’t perform as required they have no business with a diploma.

And Ebonics and Spanish speakers won’t pass. The Spanish speakers can get diplomas in Mexico (and many of them go there yearly as if a religious pilgrimage).

The Ebonics speakers are not qualified for a diploma unless they can code switch - are bilingual in English and Ebonics (like Barbara Billingsley in “Airplane”).

By Lee

March 10, 2006 03:31 PM | Link to this

HS Teacher, as a CPA, I can tell you that there are no CPAs who have only passed “3 of the 4 sections” of the CPA exam. They may work in a public accounting firm under the guidance of a CPA, but they cannot call themselves a CPA. If they are, report them to the State Board of Accountancy.

By Nel

March 10, 2006 03:49 PM | Link to this

Heavens people, nobody is saying to give this kid a college degree she doesn’t deserve. If the college that offered her the scholarship thinks she’s worth giving money to, then let them take her let her prove herself. Many children don’t handles pressure well. This even applies to many adults, so give this kid a break. And no, it’s not setting the wrong example to her, just showing her that there are people who have faith in her ability and are willing to give her a chance to prove she is capable. Lord knows there are enough kids who did well on the tetst but are flunking at the college level.

By Robert

March 10, 2006 03:58 PM | Link to this

Dear English Teacher - shut up! The English part of the test is so simple anyone can pass it. I have seen foreign students that barely speak or read any English at all pass the English part of the test. The high passing rates in the English part have NOTHING to do with your teaching skills, but rather how SIMPLE the questions are for English.

Science questions on the graduation test, on the other hand, are more difficult. I see them almost as triva questions - a ton of them about a wide variety of topics: chemistry (elements, periodic table, chemical bonds, etc.), physics (Newton’s Laws, electricity, velocity, etc.), and biology (cellular structure and respiration, genomes, etc.). The huge amount of information in the science area is what is challenging. It has nothing to do with how good or bad science teachers are.

The average science scores of my students are higher than any other science teachers scores in my school. And, it is higher than the school district average. And, it is higher than the State average. I am not saying that I am a great science teacher, but at least I am comparing apples to apples. I know that I can do better.

As a teacher, even though you only teach English, you should know better than to belittle other teachers unless you “walk in their shoes.”

By Mike

March 10, 2006 04:09 PM | Link to this

The test is a crock. I have friends who gradyuated with a B average but could not pass the science test becaus it had material in subject areas that had never had, such as physics. Get rid of all the tests and concentrate on teaching. Besides, i suggets that stiudents that are having proeblms with the test transfer to a private school or home school academy for onq sem,ester and get their diploma, then it doesn’t matter.

By NotMyProblem

March 10, 2006 04:11 PM | Link to this

There’s no such thing as kids who “test well” and those who “don’t test well”. There are only kids who “study enough” and those who “don’t study enough”. It’s a shame to miss a score by one point, but it’s also real life and our education standards are already more than low enough, aren’t they? Here’s another newsflash: ALL students have testing anxiety, and the level of anxiety is usually in direct proportion to the level of preparedness for the test. If we’d do away with the Teachers Unions and actually make the children the priority for once, we wouldn’t even have to be having this pathetic conversation about low levels of education. Until that happens, our ranking in the USA speaks for itself.

By high school teacher

March 10, 2006 04:16 PM | Link to this

Sorry, Lee. What I meant to say was that they can still work without having passed all 4 sections. My fault!

By Nel

March 10, 2006 04:21 PM | Link to this

NotMyProblem, there are no unions in Georgia so what’s your point?

By Mike

March 10, 2006 04:21 PM | Link to this

Dear NotMyProblem,

Test anxiety is not a factor for every child and some students are better test takers than others. that doesn’t mean you know the material, you may be nbetter at discarding obvious wrong answers and inceasing the odds when you guess.

By David200

March 10, 2006 04:22 PM | Link to this

Beck,

I liked your response to English Teacher. I proctored the test two years ago. English Question: Which of the below are articles? (High 90’s% passing rate) Math question: Which of the following number sets are in numerical order from lowest to highest? (High 80’s% passing rate). Science question: Observe the fork in the 6-year-old tree below. Where will the fork in the tree be in 20 years? (60’s% passing rate). If you didn’t remember what you were taught about plants budding, you’re up the well-known creek.

I’m not trying to knock the work that English and math teachers do. Lord knows, I have enough trouble keeping my kids from revolting in my own classes, but most teachers will agree the English test is an 7th-8th grade test, and the math test is a 9th-grade test, at best. I had a student tell me 3 years ago he didn’t use a calculator on the math test, because he said he would be embarressed if someone saw him using it.

The science and social studies tests are 10th and 11th grade tests and those test check for reasoning skills. Imagine that; testing kids on their ability to reason and think ahead. I’m surprised the success rate in social studies is as high as it is when a large section of people will refuse to sign a petition to support an updated version of the Bill of Rights!

Let’s face it folks. If we as teachers had done our jobs 10 and 20 years ago when this insane concept of “social promotion” was first introduced, we wouldn’t be facing these EOCT and GHSGT tests. We promoted and passed individuals who did not have the skills necessary to perform at the next level, and this is the result of our failure to do our difficult jobs properly. Like the Fram oil filter guy, we didn’t do it right in the past, and now we’re having to pay for it.

By C.R.H.

March 10, 2006 04:39 PM | Link to this

The kids who are failing the GHSGT are the same kids who have barely (if at all) passed their core classes. No kid who truely earned their grades (A’s, B’s or C’s) would find the tests that difficult. The teachers who inflate the grades and make these kids believe they are more competent than they really are, do them a great disservice. Admittedly the science tests are nitpicky and trivial, but it really doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out which formulas to use, eliminate choices, read a diagram or the periodic table. BTW…the passing rate on the English test FOR THE STATE is 98%. Amazingly, I have students who can’t write a complete sentence or a paper (in science!), they can’t formulate an argument or use proper grammar. I could train a chimp to pass the english GHSGT, the bar is set that low! Math question: Which of the following is a phone number? A)30103 B)555-555-5555 C) 487 D) 111-00-1234

WOW…the must have a headache after thinking so hard on that test!

By SET

March 10, 2006 05:19 PM | Link to this

I can’t believe Georgia includes Science on a high school graduation test. I am speechless.

All we test in CA as far as I’ve ever heard is 8th grade level Math and English. This will be the 1st year that HS Diplomas have ever been withheld if the Federal Judges stay out of it (There’s a civil rights lawsuit pending). We will be withholding diplomas to merely 12% of the “graduating” 12th graders because they can’t read and count. Many schools insist on letting them march - they just get an empty diploma case and are encouraged to try later. Many of the schools don’t want to hurt the losers “self esteem”.

The original test cut off was set at 10th grade but when the racial breakdown of the projected failure rates came in, the politicians reduced the cutoff until they got a more politically acceptable flunk rate.

As the Hispanics assume more political power in the state the cutoffs may rise because they do better on the tests than certain others and they want the HS diploma to mean more since less of their ethnic go on to college than other wealthier ethnics. They will vote to create advantage for their group from the group they are in major competition with for jobs and political power. (Guess who?)

If we also tested for basic science knowledge the flunk rate would jump. Or maybe all our kids would take basic science very seriously.

Good for GA!

By jim d

March 13, 2006 08:35 AM | Link to this

HST & Nel,

Nice to know I’ve been missed. Unfortunately business sometimes get in the way of my blogging.

But since you asked I will once again give my thoughts on high stakes testing.

I am convinced that NO SINGLE TEST CAN BE A TRUE MEASURE OF A STUDENTS ABILITY

That being said, Georgia’s Graduation test cannot measure a student’s ability, but lets assume it could. Then at whatever level the cut score is set it should remain.

What’s happening is purely political fall out due to a few influential people having children that are unable to best this silly test. I concur with them in part. Where we have a parting of the ways is that I fail to understand how once more lowering the bar is helping anyone.

For well over the past 100 years teachers who were hired to teach, graded their students on their performance, tested them on what they had been taught, decided who was capable of moving up to the next level and who was not. They produced students that continued their education and became the doctors, engineers, attorneys and other professionals we now trust with our welfare. Amazingly somewhere in the recent past it would appear teachers lost the ability to do this and became mere facilitators introducing materials rather than teaching. What a shame that we no longer feel teachers can be trusted to teach, that students learning and teacher ability can only be measured by some really meaningless test designed for only two thing really. PROFIT and POLITICAL GAIN!!

By Lee

March 13, 2006 08:44 AM | Link to this

We had a student at our local high school who couldn’t pass the test either. Damn good ball player though…

When I read these posts where teachers lament that they have students in HS who are performing at a 6th grade level, it makes me want to scream. If teachers and administrators had done their jobs, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. Actually, if they had done their jobs and not graduated students who could not read and write, there wouldn’t have been pressure to initiate all these tests.

When we pulled our child out of public schools, she was a straight A student who never brought a book home. First year in private school, she was making low B’s and was studying 2-3 hours per night. Thus, the great fallacy of public schools; they have watered the curriculum down to a point that even the “good” students aren’t getting the level of instruction that they need.

When I was in school 30 years ago, I can recall only one private school in our area. Now, there are at least a dozen. There is a reason for that…….

By V for Vendetta

March 13, 2006 10:04 AM | Link to this

Man, everytime I think we’ve hit rock bottom here in Georgia, someone throws us a shovel and says “keep on digging!”

This could be one of the DUMBEST things I have ever heard.

By Nel

March 13, 2006 02:04 PM | Link to this

Good to have you back Jim!

Was there always a high school graduation test? And if not, why the change?

By jim d

March 13, 2006 03:00 PM | Link to this

Thanks Nel,

Georgia instituted its high school graduation test somewhere around 1998-1999. As strange as it may seem there’s been lttle chaange in the percentage of students that pass on their first attempt since that time. Passing percentages have remained somewhere around 98-99% in everything but science where it has remained consistant at around 85% passing on the first attempt.

So you asked why the change? Well judging from the historical data one can assume its not to provide a better education which really only leaves on motive. $$$$$$$$$$

By HB

March 13, 2006 03:52 PM | Link to this

It’s been around a little longer. I had to pass 2 sections (math and reading/english. I believe), and I was class of 95. We took the science and social studies portions too, but those were just trial runs to help tweak the test questions a bit more. I think c/o 96 had to pass all 4 sections.

By jim d

March 13, 2006 04:27 PM | Link to this

probibly right.

At my age the years all kind of run together.