Get Schooled

By jim d

March 7, 2006 11:34 AM | Link to this

Well Patti,

Logically from the statements above the test will become easier.

So whats your problem?

By jim d

March 7, 2006 11:38 AM | Link to this

Will you ever learn?

Banging ones head on a desk will produce much the same result as sticking ones finger in a rat’s cage. I highly recommend against doing either

By BlindHomer

March 7, 2006 11:45 AM | Link to this

You’ll have to compare the CRCT pass rates to the NAEP pass rates to get a true measure. If the test is easier the cut score can be higher and it won’t mean anything. It will mean AYP rates for NCLB purposes will be about the same although less than 30% of our students pass the nationally normed test. Bottom line there is incentive to have decent results on the CRCT and it’s much easier to manipulate the test or move the cut score than to put competent teachers and a meaningful curriculum back in the classroom.

By V for Vendetta

March 7, 2006 11:49 AM | Link to this

Ha ha. . “probably”? Doesn’t that word just sum up education in Georgia? “Probably”. Wow, we sure have sunk pretty low. Probably.

By jim d

March 7, 2006 11:55 AM | Link to this

So now we just teach to the NAEP rather than the CRCT. Yep, that’ll sure make a difference in learnin them youngins hows da be smart.

JMHO, but Kathy with a “K” Cox ain’t got a clue.The sooner we un-elect her the better off our kids will be.

By K Mom

March 7, 2006 12:00 PM | Link to this

Patti:

Just a quick FYI. The link to the editorial works but the one to the op-ed piece does not. I can go find it on ajc.com - but thought you would want to know.

BTW, thank you for this blog. I am learning a lot.

By Robert

March 7, 2006 12:13 PM | Link to this

I already know that what I am about to write will rub some the wrong way….

Testing is difficult. And, creating a standardized test is even more difficult. And, few people really understand the statistics involved in creating a “valid question” much less a “valid test.” So, most people, including the media, want to boil it all down to SOMETHING, ANYTHING, that is simple. This is not possible. So when a cut score is revealed, people misinterpret what it means.

I do know that on all standardized tests there are trial questions. These trial questions are not counted. Rather, they are used to see if the level of difficulty is appropriate for that particular test. So, when you find out that the cut score is 17 out of 40, that does not necessarily mean that it is a 42.5% because some out of the 40 may be trial questions that simply are not intended to count.

Which questions are trial questions? That must be kept secret. Otherwise, the test takers will not try on those trial questions and that will skew the results.

There are many aspects to standardized testing that are like “trial questions” and the media and general population simply do not understand them at all. So, instead, they latch onto meaningless trivia and blow it out of proportion.

If you do want to know more about this, there is actually a PhD that you can earn in this area. It is not for simple minded. But just anyone without the training and knowledge can understand it all. It would be like a newspaper writer trying to evaluate a brain surgeons procedure.

By Ramona

March 7, 2006 12:13 PM | Link to this

I participated in setting the cut scores for the new test. A panel of teachers from all over the state discussed and analyzed each question. The sessions were conducted by the testing company, not the DOE. The same process is followed in every state because they all use criterion-based assessments to evaluate mastery of the curriculum. You cannot compare CRCT to any other test, because they are norm-referenced and not based on the curriculum. You will not even be able to compare this year’s CRCT scores with any past scores. I do know that the committee of teachers who worked on this were very conscientious and I think we came up with a very fair score that will assess whether or not a child has mastered the curriculum for their grade level.

By BlindHomer

March 7, 2006 12:14 PM | Link to this

Jim D, don’t you think the tougher curriculum approach is a logical one? Or don’t you believe the new curriculum is tougher?

By jim d

March 7, 2006 12:27 PM | Link to this

Robert, YES indeed it rubs me wrong.

I went through all this crap several years ago when Gwinnett County started their SECRET TESTING. What a total load of donkey dung.

When the establishment feels it can’t share a test or the answers with the people that actually paid for its development without requiring them to sign a document prohibiting them from even questioning the test or the results, You can place that document the test and the results somewhere the sun never shines for all I care. It will never be a valid measurement. Validity can only happen when the test and results can be scrutinized.

By jim d

March 7, 2006 12:29 PM | Link to this

Homer, I fail to see anyway to raise standards when we’re not meeting current standards. No my friend standards will become even lower.

By Patti Ghezzi

March 7, 2006 12:34 PM | Link to this

Hey Robert, thanks for your comments. Testing is complicated, and after all these years I still don’t grasp all aspects of it. However, I can say that the 17 out of 40 questions needed to pass third grade only refers to the questions that count. There are 50 questions on the test, 10 of which are field test questions that do not count but are used to determine whether the questions should appear on a future test.

Ramona, much, much thanks for your comments. I knew there were teachers involved in every step along the way, but I had never had the chance to hear from one.

By BlindHomer

March 7, 2006 12:43 PM | Link to this

I understand Ramona’s comment, but the real question is why are the NAEP pass rates about 1/3 of the CRCT pass rates, not whether or not the CRCT’s and cut scores indicate sufficient competency for this year’s curriculum? Since intellect appears to be largely innate, nothing can make them smarter. The idea, I think, is to make them better educated, i.e., teach a tougher, more comprehensive curriculum that would result in better scores on the NAEP.

By BlindHomer

March 7, 2006 01:12 PM | Link to this

Ramona, is 17 out of 40 actually intended to mean “mastered the curriculum”, or is it more like ‘demonstrates sufficient minimal competency to be advanced to the next grade level’?

By Fed Up

March 7, 2006 01:47 PM | Link to this

I hesitate to say this because I hate, hate, hate federal involvement in education. But if we are gong to test the he__ out of kids anyway, why not administer the NAEP to every child and forget about the CRCT and all the other state garbage. Then maybe the feds would have to pick up the tab for it all since it’s their darn test!!!

I understand that education is an area that is supposed to be left to the states. It just seems illogical to me for kids to be held to different standards in different states, esp when the feds are requiring testing. Why should kids in in one state be allowed to be stupider than kids from another state?

Again, I am very opposed to federal or even state involvement in education. However, for the time being, they both have their dirty little paws in my kids’ business. So why not require the NAEP and get some idea of what’s really going on?

I know, because most kids will fail miserably and we will be forced to look at how badly our schools stink.

By Ramona

March 7, 2006 02:46 PM | Link to this

BlindHomer, I was not speaking of CRCT tests from previous years. I can only speak about the one that is upcoming in April, 2006. We tried to make the cut score truly represent mastery. New curriculum-new test-new cut score.

By alice

March 7, 2006 02:57 PM | Link to this

It’s an election year — cut scores won’t get higher — higher cut scores === more schools not making AYP.

Not good for Kathy Cox politically.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

March 7, 2006 02:57 PM | Link to this

We need standardization of educational curriculum across the country. The material should be introduced at the same grade level and history should be the only test where the questions maybe slightly different. The cut score should be at 65% - meaning if you have 40 questions, you should have answered 26 questions correctly – not 17.

Getting rid of Kathy, will not solve the problems in GA. I read this blog almost every week and I know she’s not the biggest problem in GA. Our problems started long before she was voted into office. I’m not a supporter and I don’t care if she’s voted out of office. I just want to make it clear, that the problem is bigger than one person.

By Robert

March 7, 2006 03:15 PM | Link to this

Poor jim d - You are either one that wants to stir trouble, or you haven’t any teaching experience, or you haven’t the ability to understand, or maybe a combination.

I do not believe that the general public needs to or is able to determine statistical validity. Certainly, you have shown the inability to comprehend anything close to that level.

Continue spouting you mindless words and I am sure that everyone will simply skip anything that you post.

All standardized testing is “secret.” The day the SAT publishes all of its questions and answers is the day that they never use those questions again.

By Robert

March 7, 2006 03:23 PM | Link to this

Patti - I also know for a fact that some of the questions that are not trial questions are questions included in a standardized test that are purposefully above level than what is expected of the student. For example, in a recent EOCT for a 10th grade physical science test there was an advanced organic chemistry question on the college level.

The reason test makers do this is because if too many students suddenly get these correct, then it clues in the “powers that be” that the test administrator (ie: the teacher) may very well be going around and giving the answers to the students.

This also helps to explain why only about 42% correct answers is all that is needed to pass.

No one can and should randomly decide that “65% should be the cut score.” You have to know everything that goes into creating a standardized test in order to determine a number and it is certainly not randomly decided.

By jim d

March 7, 2006 03:29 PM | Link to this

Yo Robert, who owns the SAT and the ACT? Would that be the testing companies? Are kids forced to take it?

And who has paid for the crct and any local garbage like a Gateway test?

BTW, which testing company do you work for?

By jim d

March 7, 2006 03:31 PM | Link to this

Wow Robert, you’re pretty couragous. Calling teachers not only liars but now cheats on a public forum.

By Patti Ghezzi

March 7, 2006 03:55 PM | Link to this

C’mon, no need to call each other names.

It’s a murky issue, and all the comments are helping me find my way.

I don’t plan to become a psychometrician. I merely want some clarity. Kids are being held back. Schools are branded as failures, which drives some families away. These are high stakes. The public deserves clarity.

Parents want to send their child to a school that has a high standard. To make that decision, they need to know what the standard is.

By Robert

March 7, 2006 04:13 PM | Link to this

Patti - please read my comments. I am not calling names at all. However, you may want to consider deleting some of jim d’s comments. I feel that there should be a minimum level of maturity demonstrated on these blogs and jim d simply does not seem to have it.

By labmom

March 7, 2006 04:26 PM | Link to this

Amen, Amazed. How can you take fifty different curriculums from fifty different states who have made their own tests and then compare them to each other? If we are going to make nationwide comparisons of students then we need a nationwide standard.

By Patti Ghezzi

March 7, 2006 04:36 PM | Link to this

Hey Robert, my request to refrain from name-calling wasn’t aimed at you. I appreciate very much your view from the inside.

I delete posts that are obscene or spammish in nature. So far today I haven’t seen anything that needs to be deleted.

This is a difficult topic/subject, because of the nature of high-stakes testing and how little most people know about it. I’m not claiming to be an expert, but I do have more access to the people who make the tests than most citizens or even teachers.

If there is a trick question on the test to screen for cheating teachers - yes, we all know there are a few out there - I can’t imagine that question would be among the 40 that count. Why not make it one of the 10 that doesn’t count? I’ll run it by my sources when I get my primer on equating. Can’t wait for that!

By Robert

March 7, 2006 04:49 PM | Link to this

Thanks Patti! Unfortunately, because these tests are high stakes and the reputation of the school and the teacher is at risk, some do feel the pressure so greatly that they may coach test-takers toward a correct answer. This is a sad reality.

No profession is without some liars, cheats, etc. Just ask the clergy!

By BlindHomer

March 7, 2006 04:50 PM | Link to this

Ramona pointed out that the 42% vs 65% means nothing. All scores at or above the cut scores for April 2006 will represent mastery of the curriculum. It also seems to indicate the curriculum is still not up to national standards because more than 70% pass CRCT and more than 70% don’t pass NAEP.

By Robert

March 7, 2006 05:01 PM | Link to this

BlindHomer - One thing to consider…. You say that the curriculum in GA is not up to national standards. This may or may not be true. Isn’t is possible that the standards simply don’t match? Maybe it isn’t that the GA standards are higher or lower, but rather the curriculum simply doesn’t match up with the NAEP.

In other words, if the State of Georgia tells the teacher to teach to the GPS, but the GPS does not match up to the national standards, then aren’t we teaching different content. And therefore, it isn’t that our standardized tests are good or bad when comparing the CRCT to the NAEP, but rather they are two separate things? The CRCT may be a great/super standardized test for our GPS, but it may have nothing to do with the NAEP.

Like comparing apples to oranges.

By Nel

March 7, 2006 05:11 PM | Link to this

Robert, that’s a good thought.

By David200

March 7, 2006 05:45 PM | Link to this

Patti,

Sorry I’m so late getting in. I just read the editorial comments in “Dunce caps all around.” I wanted to cry. I don’t even know where to start…

First off high school dropouts rarely are able to read and write within 2 grade levels of where they drop out. That’s why they drop out - because they have no clue what the teacher is talking about and quite correctly realize they have no chance of passing a course. The ones that have a clue go to a center to learn as illiterate adults and tell their instructors the truth - they’re 18-years old and read at a 4th grade level. There they get the help needed. I immagine your next question to be, “Why didn’t the schools fix this?” There’s a simple reason. Social promotion is the norm at the elementary and middle school level. High school teachers are not trained to teach 4th, 5th, or 6th grade reading skills. Now I will agree educators are dumber than beavers. Even a beaver knows a leak on the down-stream side of a dam can only be fixed up-stream. Putting a finger in the dam doesn’t fix the problem. Hopefully these EOCT tests should stop students advancing that do not have the skills to advance.

Secondly, do you really expect people that drop out of high school to tell you the truth? Are you really that naïve? Do you think a person that fails at any endeavor will say, “You know the problem is that I screwed up - no one else is to blame?” Before you start believing surveys give you the unvarnished truth, do a reality check.

Thirdly, go back to the sixth paragraph where the writer discusses how much better Maine does than Georgia. 30 percent of their students pass the NAEP compared to Georgia’s 23. Considering only the cost of housing in Maine compared to Georgia’s, I’d have to say they’ve got a lot more people making a lot more money than us. As the relationship between money and accademic success is quite well known, I have to say we match up fairly well with them, notwithstanding the NAEP tests.

Fourthly, children are mentally immature. They rarely have any idea about the relevance of anything. I wish I had a nickel for every time I’ve heard a student tell me the material wasn’t relevant to them. I have 4 children of my own. All 4 have college degrees, 2 have graduate degrees. The lowest paid child makes more than I do, and I have 12 years and a specialist degree. Not a single one of them has a degree “in field.” If I made the information relevant to what they thought they were going to be doing, it wouldn’t be relevant now. A child has no idea what information will be relevant with them four years from now. Once again depending on a survey of children to make major decisions shows your paper’s lack of basic understanding of the problem.

Fourthly, the snotty comment about “educational leadership” was just that. How about asking teachers why they are getting that degree? My Master’s is in leadership, and I’m a classroom teacher. Now in my case the degree was worthless, because by the time I got that degree, I had already run companies larger than my high school, and I had already learned everything my professors were trying to teach me in “The School of Hard Knocks.” Rather than commenting about the “murky discipline” (that is crystal clear to a true leader), how about asking teachers how they can get a larger income than by getting a Master’s and staying in the classroom? You’ll be stunned by the answers. And that’s a topic that should be discussed.

By David200

March 7, 2006 06:04 PM | Link to this

Patti,

Sorry I’m so late getting in. I just read the editorial comments in “Dunce caps all around.” I wanted to cry. I don’t even know where to start…

First off high school dropouts rarely are able to read and write within 2 grade levels of where they drop out. That’s why they drop out - because they have no clue what the teacher is talking about and quite correctly realize they have no chance of passing a course. The ones that have a clue go to a center to learn as illiterate adults and tell their instructors the truth - they’re 18-years old and read at a 4th grade level. There they get the help needed. I immagine your next question to be, “Why didn’t the schools fix this?” There’s a simple reason. Social promotion is the norm at the elementary and middle school level. High school teachers are not trained to teach 4th, 5th, or 6th grade reading skills. Now I will agree educators are dumber than beavers. Even a beaver knows a leak on the down-stream side of a dam can only be fixed up-stream. Putting a finger in the dam doesn’t fix the problem. Hopefully these EOCT tests should stop students advancing that do not have the skills to advance.

Secondly, do you really expect people that drop out of high school to tell you the truth? Are you really that naïve? Do you think a person that fails at any endeavor will say, “You know the problem is that I screwed up - no one else is to blame?” Before you start believing surveys give you the unvarnished truth, do a reality check.

Thirdly, go back to the sixth paragraph where the writer discusses how much better Maine does than Georgia. 30 percent of their students pass the NAEP compared to Georgia’s 23. Considering only the cost of housing in Maine compared to Georgia’s, I’d have to say they’ve got a lot more people making a lot more money than us. As the relationship between money and accademic success is quite well known, I have to say we match up fairly well with them, notwithstanding the NAEP tests.

Fourthly, children are mentally immature. They rarely have any idea about the relevance of anything. I wish I had a nickel for every time I’ve heard a student tell me the material wasn’t relevant to them. I have 4 children of my own. All 4 have college degrees, 2 have graduate degrees. The lowest paid child makes more than I do, and I have 12 years and a specialist degree. Not a single one of them has a degree “in field.” If I made the information relevant to what they thought they were going to be doing, it wouldn’t be relevant now. A child has no idea what information will be relevant with them four years from now. Once again depending on a survey of children to make major decisions shows your paper’s lack of basic understanding of the problem.

Fourthly, the snotty comment about “educational leadership” was just that. How about asking teachers why they are getting that degree? My Master’s is in leadership, and I’m a classroom teacher. Now in my case the degree was worthless, because by the time I got that degree, I had already run companies larger than my high school, and I had already learned everything my professors were trying to teach me in “The School of Hard Knocks.” Rather than commenting about the “murky discipline” (that is crystal clear to a true leader), how about asking teachers how they can get a larger income than by getting a Master’s and staying in the classroom? You’ll be stunned by the answers. And that’s a topic that should be discussed.

By SET

March 7, 2006 06:54 PM | Link to this

The Education Blogs are really great to read.

Here’s my 10 cents on this one.

Several of the regular bloggers do have a history of emtionally acting out towards someone who says something they don’t like. This tells us volumes about that writer - so guys, keep doing it. I rather suspect some of the posters are either fanatics or children.

Next point: Do all of us believe that the purpose of these schools we work in/pay for/ send our kids to are really to educate? At this point in my life I believe that there are no accidents. Things usually happen because they were supposed to. If the kids aren’t learning it’s probably because they were not intended to by those in control of the school. Is it possible that the real mission of the public schools is something else? (It’s nice if they learn something but they’re really here because :::?)

Major point: Any kind of objective standardized testing is a mortal threat to whatever is going on because it will expose the fact that the schools aren’t producing educated students. Or at least aren’t producing at the same ratio of other schools with more or less money, etc. The better the testing is at revealing the true performance levels of the students the more dangerous the testing is to whoever is running the existing curriculum.

Altought the US Government banned IQ testing for employment purposes except for the Military and the NFL sometime in the 60’s - and banned IQ testing of blacks in the schools - Modern Science is busy producing surrogate scoring systems so that businesses other than the Military and the NFL can quickly select or deselect candidates for instant credit, employment, tenancy, dating services and a host of other associations. The trend for computer assisted scoring and grading of people is accellerating so undisciplined dummies are getting dumped on everywhere they turn now. These people need the schools to be harder on them in K to 9 so they have options in life later.

It would help people especially the left side of the bell curve if they could get at least enough discipline and training at the primary and secondary levels in this country so they can stay out of prison and maybe get a job and a spouse and family. Being able to read and write and count at 9th grade level is a nice start. And while they are in school, lets force them to learn to speak standard english? (At least train to code switch.) No one hires an Ebonics speaker. At least you can get work speaking Spanish.

Maybe this testing controversy we are touching on will (I hope) force the schools to change enough to produce more durable graduates. The HS Grads I see don’t wear well in the real world. And I’m sure it wasn’t this bad when I was in public school.

Schools that do worse than others with the same populations need to be closed and the staff fired. Testing is how this is to be accomplished. The goal is to change the priority of the schools back to producing graduates who can read and write. When that goal becomes high enough I hope that the present emphasis on being nice, making the kids happy and retaining non-performers will change.

What would Madea do?

By Robert

March 7, 2006 07:10 PM | Link to this

As a high school science teacher, I am at a loss when posters propose that schools are for any other purpose than to educate. I can only ensure what happens inside of my classroom, and I know that I most certainly teach science content. Keep in mind that my college degrees are not in “education” but rather in science and applied science, so I feel confident that I do know what science content is and should be.

I do agree with some that elementary and middle school classrooms do not focus enough on subject matter content and rather chose to focus on “manners” or “social graces.” I know this partly because some of my high school students tell me that this is what they learned in previous schools. Do I agree with this - not really. However, if parents do not teach their own children manners, society rules, the difference between right and wrong, etc., then who will?

I guess the bigger picture question is…. Are schools responsible for producing citizens with manners and social graces, or are schools solely responsible for teaching information/content. I really do feel that this is the core problem with public education, specifically. Usually, kids attending private school are well taught the social graces by their above-middle-class parents. So, public schools end up with a larger percentage of students that been taught little to nothing by their parents (of course there are exceptions).

Won’t it be great if teachers could focus only on teaching content and not worry about problem behaving students!?!?!?!

By Kage

March 7, 2006 07:50 PM | Link to this

I believe that the cut scores on the CRCT (3rd grade at least) are absurdly low. If a child scored below 300, then he/she likely has great difficulty in that subject area. Three hundred is the bare minimum to pass. It does not connote mastery of material. Students who have mastered the material usually score 340+.

You cannot compare NAEP and CRCT scores, not because the standards are different, but because the test is different. NAEP is designed to sort students; CRCT is designed to determine mastery. They test different things. That said, I think that the NAEP is a great test and the CRCT is a mediocre one. Take the questions from each. Plot them according to Bloom’s Taxonomy. NAEP questions require synthesis and evaluation of material far more often than CRCT questions do. Also, the NAEP requires constructed responses from students. In fact, most other states’ criterion referenced tests require constructed responses. Georgia is a tad behind. I wouldn’t worry about teaching to the NAEP. If someone is, consider that they’re teaching their students to use higher order thinking skills.

By jim d

March 8, 2006 08:57 AM | Link to this

It would appear that perhaps two apologies might be in order.

First to Patti, if my restating Roberts comments was name-calling.

Secondly to Robert for my passion against the use of High Stakes tests.

If my comments from yesterday were offensive, I apologize and will make every effort to refrain from being offensive.

In my own defense, I find the use of high stakes tests offensive to the mind and to the spirit of our future generation and am quite passionate about this issue.

By BlindHomer

March 8, 2006 09:24 AM | Link to this

I understand the apples and oranges nature of CRCT compared to NAEP. My point remains the curriculum needs to be changed because the low scores on the NAEP are precursors for low scores on the nationally normed SAT. Georgia kids lose out to those from other states when they compete for those Duke and Vanderbilt admissions. The school system should be geared toward admission and success at college, at least for the college bound, not towards manipulating the CRCT test and cut scores so most will meet NCLB.

By high school teacher

March 8, 2006 09:54 AM | Link to this

With regard to NAEP: In high school, not all students take the NAEP test. A certain percentage of seniors are randomly selected to take the test. They must miss their classes for one to two days to take a test that has absolutely no effect on their grade or their criteria for graduation. Is it any wonder, then, that the performance is less than stellar? The kids don’t value the test results as we adults are forced to. I am clueless about NAEP procedure in elementary school. Can anyone fill us in?

By jim d

March 8, 2006 10:17 AM | Link to this

HST,

Not sure but I was under the impression that the entire school is either chosen or not to participate in the anual NAEP testing and this included private as well as public schools.

By SET

March 8, 2006 10:23 AM | Link to this

I went to a public school that was dominated by upper class (including nuveau riche) students but had a good dose of middle and some lower class students.

This school had no trouble is snapping the whip over all of them. It was a public high school - but they expelled senior class students 2 weeks before graduation for truancy.

The dean of students was approx 30 years old and had several rentals of his own (which he maintained). He worked restoring cars in his spare time. He was young enough to relate to the students, and independent enough to stand up to their families. The school board was comprised of members who were alumni with kids or grandkids in the schools and all of them were college and professional school educated, most with their own businesses.

These people were (in hindsight) tough and they knew what they wanted at the school. Anything or anybody that got in their way was removed. They did not live with what annoyed them. They wanted graduates who could readily be acccepted into college, trade school or work. They got it.

We had vocational classes such as print shop and wood shop and a fledgling auto mechanics program that was outsourced. We had driver’s ed and training. These programs are not to be found in most schools today. At the same time we had college prep and lab sciences that were strong enough to feed to Ivy League. There were field trips every year to Europe and to the East Coast (We were in CA).

Administration had spies everywhere and if somebody damaged their facilities or tried to push other people around they would be eliminated. Suspensions led to expulsions if the actor didn’t change fast. Their was no violence and public displays of affection got you detention. PE classes were mandatory including gang showers and they worked us to exhaustion. (I realize that now. They worked us like pack animals in PE!)

Yes we had standardized tests. Everybody sat for the PSAT given at the school. There were other routine math/verbal tests but none were as important as the PSAT.

All this in the early 1970s.

Nobody I know here gets these things in a public high school around here now although my high school is still at these standards. The demographics have changed there. Jewish and Asian students wear a small minority then. Now they dominate. Whites are the minority and the families who grew up there can’t afford to live there anymore - my (white) classmates have (mostly) all moved to cheaper cities a hour away.

The exceptions are the nerds and surprisingly the poor members of the class who became incredible strivers. They made $$ in Real Estate and software and inventions and other such things. Other then them the population of this town is largely replaced with new people (lots of immigrant professionals w/kids) rather than the later generations of the older families. Black families are rare - because you can buy so much elsewhere (my generation) people chose to relocate and are actually happy with their newer, more modern & larger homes elsewhere. Anyone with money could buy the older smaller vastly more expensive houses in this district. You have to chose to spend this way, there’s a massive difference in the price per sq ft for this district.

But elsewhere they have to send kids to private high school because the newer communities mixed upper and lower class in the same school district and the schools pander to the lowest common denominator.

My old school didn’t pander to anybody except the wishes of the school board that EVERYONE was expected to do better than their parents or they weren’t being worked hard enough.

By jim d

March 8, 2006 10:24 AM | Link to this

Here’s what Mi. does.

http://www.michigan.gov/mde/0,1607,7-140-22709_32669-100313—,00.html

Seems that schools would want to be well represented when selecting students for testing. Do they randomly select students or do they pick and choose from each group that they must test?

By jim d

March 8, 2006 10:27 AM | Link to this

Would someone explain please, how this is representative? If students are randomly chosen and one school just happens to get kids that are in the top 5% and another school selects kids from the bottom 5%.

How can on ascertain aa national norm from this process?

By Robert

March 8, 2006 10:30 AM | Link to this

jim d - thanks for the appology. I also appologize if I said anything offensive to you.

But, I think that high stakes testing is a good thing rather than a bad thing. To see why, we can look at other Countries that use high stakes testing throughout education. For example, China will test after numerous grades to determine if the student has learned the material to proceed or to change to a different profession (maybe a vocation such as carpenter, etc.). By doing this, I think it actually reduces frustration of the student through their education because they are not pushed beyond their capabilities and interests, and also the teachers are not frustrated trying to teach content to students that either are not capable or maybe do not care to learn the content. If a 10 year old wants to be a carpenter, why push them towards a college prep education?

High stakes testing is common place in our lives as adults….. a job interview is a high stakes test, isn’t it? Why shouldn’t students become accustommed to this early on?

By Nikole

March 8, 2006 10:35 AM | Link to this

The answer to all testing issues: nomoretests.com

By jim d

March 8, 2006 10:42 AM | Link to this

You are quite welcome.

Indeed Robert we as adults are tested in our every day life, often in trades we are undergoing high stakes tests to obtain licensing for our particular trade. The difference is we CHOOSE to do this.

As for comparing our schools with other countries, I have a problem. We are not those countries. We maintain and enjoy freedoms in this country that are only available here and I hold our freedoms and liberties above all else.

Perhaps we can just agree to disagree on the use of forced high stakes testing in our schools?

By high school teacher

March 8, 2006 10:42 AM | Link to this

Jim D, I know at my school that the admin could not choose the method of random selection. “They” (the NAEP committee) looked at the alphabetical list of students and took every fifth student.

By jim d

March 8, 2006 10:51 AM | Link to this

HST,

Ok, what if every 5th student alphabetically was a failing student or one in the top 5%, how in the world can we consider this test representative of anything?

By Leia

March 8, 2006 10:51 AM | Link to this

If you’re against testing; how would you (realistically) attempt to assess your students?

By jim d

March 8, 2006 10:59 AM | Link to this

I personally have no problem with testing, my problem comes from the way the results are used. Use them for the purpose, (according to the people that write the tests) which are not high stakes, but to ascertain weekness in the delivery and/or a students ability to comprehend the materials and use that information to improve and tweak your program and I have no problem with testing.

By high school teacher

March 8, 2006 11:40 AM | Link to this

My point exactly, JD. The NAEP is not an accurate portrayal of student performance, and I think that’s the point you’re making as well. I think that some testing is necessary, but I agree that we rely too much on the data provided from tests. DATA IS MISLEADING!

The SAT scores that are published for a school each year are misleading. The GHSGT scores and EOCT scores are all misleading. Each year, a different set of kids are tested. When my brother graduated, he was one of seven valedictorians. That particular class of seniors was phenomenal! Several got full scholarships. When they were juniors, the graduation test scores of that class were the highest in the county, and the SAT scores were through the roof (two of these seven got perfect scores on the math part of the SAT). According to the data, this school was the place to be. Guess what happened? The next junior class GHSGT scores were good, but nowhere near the calibre of the class before. Likewise with the SAT scores. But according to the data that the real estate agents use to sell houses, that school’s “quality” was not the same as the year before. But everything about a system can be determined by tests scores, right?

By jim d

March 8, 2006 11:54 AM | Link to this

Agreed HST, in order to fully comprehend if the job is getting done we would need to follow a freshmen class in, and out as seniors to see. Comparing one group as freshmen to another group of freshmen only tells us if one group is more advanced than the other. It fails to tell us if we’ve improved or not.

By SET

March 8, 2006 01:01 PM | Link to this

Jim D.

The freedom’s and liberties you hold so dear are incompatible with the brave new world we’ve created. They are steadily being done away with. You cannot have the freedom and liberty when the government has social engineered massive numbers of feral people.

When the civil rights movement and the great society was put together in the 1960’s - combined with the open borders policy (all this agreed to by both parties) the stage was set for what is before us now.

We have a fast reproducing population of unemployable, fatherless, violent and drug/alcohol susceptable people supported by a shrinking population of one or two child double income desperate housewives and their husbands. Daniel Moynihan warned us what would happen if we proceeded with the great society. In Scandinavia perhaps women don’t let themselves become welfare brood mares. Compton and Detroit are not Scandinavia.

To try to keep our heads above water with all the crime, fraud and violence we are voting month by month more failing repressive measures. What we are not doing is pest control. (CA has 650 people on death row and can’t kill them.) If we were to stop the feral people we would stand aside and allow evolution, their victims or the law kill them.

We know from history that when these conditions persist any democracy will happily elect a dictator. It’s happened over and over. Someone will arise and promise to free us from our “freedom”. It could be Hillary or Rudy G. eith party will have somebody on hand.

Freedom isn’t being taken away, it’s being thrown away. And the genesis of all this is the public license that was given to the parasites of this country by the Great Society legislation (entitlements) combined with the license given in the civil rights movement (cancellation of freedom of association).

I’m not trying to say these movements are completely wrong, quite the contrary. I’m saying they went way too far. The results are shown by what’s happened in the schools.

Testing is an attempt to right the schools and force performance. But it’s much too late to stop what’s coming. We have foreign competitors now who will never let happen to their societies what happened to us. China, Japan and Korea and the other Asian city-states are watching us and publicly commenting on the multicultural madness that cripples our society.

The major battle left is who gets the Oil that modern industry runs on. The Islamists cannot run a modern society, the Asians can. They have the armies and the will to conquer especially if the alternative is domination by the Middle East. We will be under martial law from coast to coast when there is any significant disruption in oil flow (or if our money is no good).

So in the balance I think high stakes testing in primary and secondary schools is not a bad thing. The schools and the kids need to toughen up.

Too bad about all those freedoms though. I used to really like driving fast.

Brave New World.

By jim d

March 8, 2006 03:00 PM | Link to this

SET, you may be right,Time will tell, but I’m not going done without a fight.

By Robert

March 8, 2006 03:05 PM | Link to this

SET - your thoughts are way too scary and deep! Go have a beer, man!