Get Schooled

By A Teacher

March 6, 2006 03:58 PM | Link to this

New teacher, went to administrator to ask how to handle a student flat out telling entire class not to do an assignment because it is just busy work. I wanted to write it up as inciting, classroom disturbance, and disrespect/ disobedience/ insubordination. Administrator said not to do the write up! Detention isn’t working for this kid! (or any other!!) That was the first time I seriously considered quitting. I’ve only been on the job TWO MONTHS!

I give admin props for being supportive, and I know they have 3000 students to deal with compared to my 130, but they could be SOOOO much more strict, and it would GREATLY help me out. (On the flip side though: OSS - Out of School Suspension - is simply a free vacation to these kids. Patti, a new topic idea: What would be a “consequence” that would actually get students’ attention AND that parents would support?)

By C.R.H.

March 6, 2006 04:06 PM | Link to this

Options: kick them out of school and let them clean toilets for a living for $5 an hour, haul them & their parents in front of a judge and explain why they deem it neccessary to waste taxpayer money, let karma take care of it (most of the little turds grow up to be bug turds and the system finds a way to flush them, eventually). A really good option and one I’m trying out is to have ALL the teachers leave teaching & get a better paying job and let these “problems” become someone else’s.

By Robert

March 6, 2006 04:07 PM | Link to this

Without a doubt, this is probably the #1 reason that is driving teachers away. Administrators want discipline in the classroom, but refuse to back up a teacher when they try to enforce anything.

For example, last semester, I had a high number of referrals. They were all coming from four students that repeatedly disrupted the class. The administrators did nothing to correct their behavior and so the kids continued to disrupt the class and I continued to send them out with referrals. At the end of the semester, the administration attempted to say that I had “poor classroom management” because I had a high number of referrals. Immediately, I pointed out that I had the highest end-of-course test scores in the school ONLY because I was able to remove the trouble makers in the class and actually teach.

Administrators can either have teachers or baby sitters, not both!

By Been There

March 6, 2006 04:08 PM | Link to this

It only took one year of teaching for me. The administrators told me that every child DESERVED a free and equal education and I just needed to deal with it.

The only person who helped me was a guidance counselor who removed two troublemakers out of my worst class (they needed an academic class worse than my vocational class).

I felt defeated. All the students did was mouth at me. One girl cursed me and an administrator called her mother to the school (we had 3 weeks left in the year)and the mother said that her daughter wouldn’t say that. I told the mother she was mistaken, that I knew what I heard. Daughter got one day suspension. Big Whoop.

Thankfully, I got married and got to escape to another city. Where I didn’t even look for a teaching job. Give me my sanity and an office job—you can keep your pension and holidays.

By V for Vendetta

March 6, 2006 04:09 PM | Link to this

Wow, teachers walking away because of a lack of administrative support… SHOCKING! The reason for this is simple: habitual offenders. Teachers grow increasingly tired of dealing with the same students over, and over, and over, etc.

The reason seems to be a lack of backbone across the board. No matter what county you live in, there are stories of teachers not being supported in conjunciton with stories about kids who just do not seem to go away after repeat offenses. What I don’t understand is why this is even an issue. The solution seems simple enough to me; three strikes and you are out. Let me explain…

The schools systems (heck, forget the counties, it should be a STATE rule. Imagine that, a State rule that would actually make a difference)should make it clear that three offenses severe enough to result in a student getting OSS (out of school suspension) will cause the student to be expelled from that school. Most kids, kids who actually care about their education, would be HORRIFIED if they received OSS. Some kids, the ones that can be turned towards the light, might shape up if they knew there was a limit to their stupidity. But let’s face it, the rule would target the kids who just don’t give a sht. And consequently, would affect their parents, who in many cases, just don’t give a sht.

If administrators actually had the stones to enforce a rule like that, I think there would be a big difference in the number of teachers jumping ship from any county, or from the profession in general. Get rid of the habitual offenders and watch the classroom environment change for the better. Teacher moral would go up. Peace would ensue. All people could live as one… .(cue the music).

By SW

March 6, 2006 04:17 PM | Link to this

We moved from Clayton County last year, the whole county…not just the schools, seems to be going to hell in a handbasket fast, and I don’t think Sheriff Walking Small has a clue as to how to run the county. You have to have large numbers of police on hand just to have a high school football game, to make the place safe enough for high school sports.Time was when Clayton County was a nice safe place to live, now it’s one of the fastest growing crime areas in the state. Why would we expect the school to be different from the rest of the county?

By V for Vendetta

March 6, 2006 04:17 PM | Link to this

Been There- I hear that a lot, everyone “deserves” an education. Let’s make something perfectly clear…

Everyone on Earth has the RIGHT to an education, BUT…

receiving that education is a PRIVILEGE. One that can and should be taken away if it is not respected.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

March 6, 2006 04:20 PM | Link to this

I’m totally against sending the child home, because that’s where those who get into trouble frequently; want to be - at home.

I’m for 3 to 4 hard licks on the behind, with two additional adults present. I’m for keeping the punishments for the crimes consistent. I’m for a state law that will allow the administrators to bring this type of punishment back into schools. I’m for in school suspension with a mandatory “in-school” assigned class work, double that assigned, had the child not been suspended. Which has to be completed with 70% or higher, in order to get back into a regular classroom.

I’m for a video camera in each class, so that the parents cannot dispute their child’s behavior. I’m also for letting the parents, come to school to witness their child being punished for being disruptive.

But, do not send them home unless - it is a crime they can be prosecuted for or bodily harm to someone. They love the idea of being home.

In school suspension - that works like a prison. No outside activities, no lunch outside of that room, no contact with any of their peers and they must complete the assignments in order to come out of suspension. I don’t see any harm with this method.

By SET

March 6, 2006 04:22 PM | Link to this

The problem is some of these dissafected teachers assumned the mission of their “schools” was to “teach”. So they were shocked and appalled when they finally realized it wasn’t so.

So they left the “profession”.

Many of these government secondary schools are containment facilities with a primary mission of political indoctrination. So they treat students and staff accordingly.

The teachers are not valued because they can be replaced with another psych tech.

The “students’ are not disciplined because they are behaving exactly as they are supposed to.

Whatever is happening at a school is neither an accident nor unwanted, sad to say.

Once the teaching staff finally realizes the truth and where they fit in the scheme of things they will adjust or find work at a school more to their liking.

By Vel

March 6, 2006 04:44 PM | Link to this

I hate to break it to you guys, but we have the blessed NCLB to thank for the lack of discipline in today’s schools. Attendance accounts for much of AYP, and too many principals will not suspend students. Also, there are too many principals who are afraid of parents that will “go to the county” when they try to administer discipline.

I wholeheartedly agree with Amazed. We need to go back to whooping behinds in elementary school (paddling). Kids today do not believe “fat meat’s greasy” and have no sense of consequences. In the middle grades and high schools, in-school suspension needs to be run like prisons.

By OldSchool

March 6, 2006 04:51 PM | Link to this

How about calling the police to take the disruptive student to his/her parent’s place of work? Sure employers will likely get their backs up about it but that’s exactly where the discipline problem belongs…with the person who probably is at the root of the whole thing anyway.

I doubt if there would be a repeat trip if the employer backs the school’s action and tells the parent to get the matter handled ASAP.

Second offense: put the offender in a holding cell until the parent can get there.

Third offense: jail the parent.

By Nel

March 6, 2006 04:53 PM | Link to this

With the push towards NCLB because it supposedly worked in Texas public education is being gutted. Vel is correct, attendance can move a school that is doing well academically, into not making AYP. Current political will trends towards private/religious schools which would give one the impression that they really aren’t too concerned with the public schools. If they fail, then you can really push vouchers, of course, vouchers won’t solve the problem of unruly kids and their disconnected parents.

By C.R.H.

March 6, 2006 05:02 PM | Link to this

I like the idea of dropping the kid off at their parents workplace, except a lot of the troublemakers have parents that don’t work. I guess we can just drop them off at the prison where their parents are incarcerated.

By K Mom

March 6, 2006 05:03 PM | Link to this

I agree with Amazed and Vel (and others) that a get tough approach needs to be taken. However, I disagree with paddling. Put the kids to work and I mean hard labor - i.e., painting curbs, pulling weeds, washing school vehicles, washing windows, scrubbing floors, etc.

When I was growing up, a friend of mine and his friends stole a stop sign and as punishment they had to paint curbs 8 hours a day on Sat and Sun for four straight weekends. He was the most law abiding citizen you have ever seen after that.

By eulerboi

March 6, 2006 05:17 PM | Link to this

Many of the comments being made ignore one big issue that essentially drives every decision a public school makes: IDEA. I’m not talking about a bright idea, but the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act. I’ve crunched the numbers for my school and the saying is true that 3-5% of the students cause 95% of the problems. Of the 3-5% of the trouble makers, most are IDEA qualified students (more specifically EBD students). Much of the time spent dealing with discipline is taken up trying to cover the legalities of IDEA students. Those students can’t be suspended OSS for more than ten days without a writ from God (or whomever your supreme being may be) allowing for more days of OSS to be issued. Teacher allotments allow for ONE in-school suspension room in most cases, accomodating only 15-25 students. Believe me, you wouldn’t want to be the teacher who has to coordinate the ISS classroom. The ISS room is NEVER empty. Quite a few issues administrators face with students also result from 3-5% of the teachers not following through with basic duties and responsibilities (sending students into the hallway without a pass, not showing up for duty, acting like a student, dressing like a student, sauntering in late to work - sound like a class tardy?, etc., etc.). Just as we have high maintenance students, we also have to spend a good deal of time taking care of high maintenance teachers. Sadly, those few students and teachers who take up most of the adminstrator’s day are also the ones who get all of the attention from the media, angry parents, or blogs that want to complain about school administrators or public schools in general. Same old song, different singers…

By Hatin'Clayton

March 7, 2006 08:58 AM | Link to this

I worked last year for Clayton Co. for 1/2 of a school year. It was the worst experience of my professional life. I had no support from my principal, I even was told that I could not have books for my special ed class because the regular ed students in the school needed to be taken care of first. I hate to even say it, but I felt discriminated against because I was white. Now, I may not understand all of the nuances or even begin to understand how to empathize with the struggle of blacks living in the south, but I do know right from wrong. Wrong was allowed on many occasions, undermining my ability to raise the children I dealt with for 7 hrs a day all in the name of a culture that was, and I quote, “really none of my business”. I went into Clayton Co. knowing that I would be a minority. I knew it would be a challenge and I attempted to do what I could to show that I cared about my students, even though I was a different color from them. But I was also a different color from my administrator and apparently that administrator felt threatened by that. The funny thing is, I now teach at another predominantly all black school and have never felt more at home here. Clayton County, from their Sherrif’s Department to their schools needs to stop looking at color and start looking at the future.

By tammy

March 7, 2006 09:30 AM | Link to this

While Vel is correct in that most of our discipline problems are stemming from NCLB and lily-livered administrators being worried about making AYP, most of our discipline problems actually stem from before NCLB was even a twinkle in the country’s eyes.

Yesterday, I visited the ISS classroom during my planning period in order to give the teacher there a break. The ISS teacher was in the middle of disciplining students who persisted in talking AND writing out his resignation letter. He pointed at one student and told me that that one student had been in ISS for more than 50 days so far this year. When I expressed shock, he whispered to me “special ed.”

I hate to say it…but I think that special ed…special needs….whatever you want to call it….has gotten out of hand. Yes, there are some children with genuine needs out there…and my heart goes out to them and their families. But these EBD kids? Kids with ADD and ADHD who are now being classified as special needs children? Is there some reason why the percentage of special needs children in most of our schools has more than tripled in the past 20 years?

Good old fashioned discipline administered at an early age….a stick on the butt…making them cut their own hickory…would have taken care of most of a great many of these children. It still wouldn’t hurt.

Parking their butts in ISS for 50+ days obviously isn’t working when they raise hell in class.

By Susie

March 7, 2006 09:39 AM | Link to this

You people who are brave enough to go into teaching in this day and age have my utmost respect. You are better people than I’ll ever be.

I wanted to teach, when I was in college back in the 80s. I was all starry-eyed about it, like a lot of new teachers are, I imagine. Now I’m glad I didn’t go that route, because if I was living all the stories I read on this blog, it would break my heart.

I wanted to teach little ones, kindergarten maybe up to second grade, and I don’t think there are as many problems in those grades as there are in the older grades. (at least notsomuch the physical danger!)It always made my heart give a little squeeze to see a little face just “light up” when a child learned something new for the first time, but still…the joy of teaching just isn’t there anymore, like it would have been for me, when I was starting out in the late 80s. And I’m sure things were already spiraling downward even then, I just didn’t know it.

I taught my own three kids how to read and write and add and subtract before they were in school, so I got my “fix” there, I guess. It’s just so sad that something that should be so satisfying is now something that people dread every day. It’s sad that some teachers are even going to school to learn another career.

Teaching is not something just anyone can do. It’s one of those things that you either can do, or you can’t, regardless of what degree you have. It’s a gift, and it’s so incredibly sad that people with that gift are not being allowed to use it to its fullest potential, to the point that they are tossing it aside for something more fulfilling and less thankless. What a disheartening blog topic.

By C.R.H.

March 7, 2006 09:40 AM | Link to this

I think it is funny when people come on here and say if the teachers are so unhappy, they should quit and get “real jobs”. Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it. And the job we take may be YOURS. Is it really any mystery why teachers are leaving?

By ATL Pearl Girl

March 7, 2006 10:04 AM | Link to this

Teaching is one of the most NOBLE professions……. I think we should treat them with the most respect one can give a professional. It amazes me….that we do not. Are we goobers or what.

By Susie

March 7, 2006 10:12 AM | Link to this

OldSchool, the only problem with that is, there are kids out there whose parents HAVE tried everything they know how to, to make their kids behave, and the kids just simply WON’T behave.

There are probably kids who would misbehave even more, to get their parents thrown in jail on purpose! There are already kids who know their parents can’t discipline them, because they threaten to report them for “abuse.” Can you imagine the control a kid would have over a household, if they knew they could get their parents thrown in jail on a whim???

You can’t really blame the parents for their kids behavior, when the government won’t even allow parents to discipline their kids anymore! It’s bad enough that schools can’t discipline…the people who are SUPPOSED to do the disciplining can’t either!

By jim d

March 7, 2006 10:12 AM | Link to this

Horsefeathers.

There are a varity of reasons teachers leave the profession. You can blame discipline, lack of support,lack of respect, or the money. But the number one reason that teachers leave is because Women make up 75 to 80 percent of the teacher population. These are generally young women just out of college.

So it really should come as no surprise the number one reason for losing teachers is to pregnancy. They start a family and make a CHOICE to stay home.

Before y’all start blasting away at me. Do your homework!

These are

By C.R.H.

March 7, 2006 10:21 AM | Link to this

Jim, you need to do your homework. Teachers aren’t leaving to have babies.

By Vel

March 7, 2006 10:30 AM | Link to this

Um, jim, I’m 12 mos. pregnant right now, have two other children, and I haven’t gotten out of the profession yet, nor do I plan to any time soon. So, why do MALES leave the profession? Are they getting pregnant, too?

Anyway, tammy, right on! You are absolutely correct about there being discipline problems before NCLB, but NCLB has taken it to another level.

Susie, I believe that there are parents out there who hide behind and blame the government for not disciplining their kids. But, the same parents don’t have a problem with “breaking the law” when it comes to such things like speeding, cheating on taxes, using drugs, etc. I am a parent who will discipline her kids wherever they are, whether at school, store, or any other place. And, yes, I have spanked my own children at the very school where I teach. I could care less about the “laws” when it comes to disciplining my children because if I don’t, the same government will lock them up if they “break” the “laws” in the future.

By jim d

March 7, 2006 10:37 AM | Link to this

CRH,

Lets look at it realistically.

If a teacher leaves for a few years while her children are toddlers and not in school, she has for the records left the profeesion. Granted she may return, but then those numbers aren’t counted.

Leaving for a period is not uncommon, to the contray many teachers decide for whatever reasons, to be with her child in those formative years or realizing the cost of childcare prohibits them from immediately returning. These people have left the profession. Ask around, you’ll discover many teachers took some extended time off when their children were young.

By jim d

March 7, 2006 10:39 AM | Link to this

Um ladies,

Read the statistics.

By jim d

March 7, 2006 10:50 AM | Link to this

Soorry Vel, missed the second part of your question.

No, Male teachers are leaving becaause they can’t get pregnant.

My theory is that they leave because they aren’t moms and don’t have the patience y’all have. Nor do we have the nuturing instincts that you ladies do. In other words we can’t handle the pressure in most cases. So we bail!

By Nel

March 7, 2006 11:02 AM | Link to this

Jim, my brother, a male, and without hope of ever getting pregnant, left the profession for good. His reason was that there was no support from the administration. Many young men today will take advantage of other options rather than deal with the BS in public school. This is someone who WANTED to teach and was very good at it. It is far harder to go from a very supportive environment to one where you in your idealism feel you can do the most good, then realize that most of the people around you lost their idealism years ago and are waiting to retire.

By jim d

March 7, 2006 11:08 AM | Link to this

Funny thing about us guys Nel, We can come up with an excuse for anything rather than admit the truth.

By jim d

March 7, 2006 11:16 AM | Link to this

Ladies, perhaps if we were discussing why teachers don’t return I’d agree with you. But the question at hand is why they leave. These are two totally different questions and have an unlimited number of answers.

By jim d

March 7, 2006 11:27 AM | Link to this

Nel, I really don’t know your brother or the situation and am not inferring the following statement applies to him. However, over the years I’ve attributed the following observation to just being a trait of human nature “It is much easier to fault someone or something else rather than admit our own shortcomings.”

By jim d

March 7, 2006 11:30 AM | Link to this

The real reasons teachers walk.

Teacher Follow-up Survey (TFS) to identify which of 17 factors were “very important” in their decision to leave teaching, they most commonly identified retirement (20 percent), followed by family reasons (16 percent), pregnancy/child rearing (14 percent), wanting a better salary and benefits (14 percent), and wanting to pursue a different kind of career (13 percent).35 Among the factors least often reported as “very important” in their decision to leave were teachers’ perceptions that the “school received little support from the community” and that there were too many policy changes at the school (both about 2 percent).

source:http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/2005/analysis/sa09.asp

By Nel

March 7, 2006 11:38 AM | Link to this

Jim, be nice now…you guys can’t help it. Seriously though, I wish there were more males in the profession, especially at elementary and middle level because there are so many kids out there who have no positive male influences. If you have a child who “runs” their mother, they seem to try the same tactic with their female teacher and in these situations, mother goes along with it because for them it’s normal behavior. There was a male teacher in one of our elemtary schools who had a reputation amongst the kids for being tough. He would put them in the corner to hold a hardcover dictionary in their outstretched arms. Needless to say, many of the mothers with sons wanted them in his class when they reached his grade level. My child who is not troublemaker, begged to get into his class. Aside from how he ran his classroom, he was also an excellent teacher. This is the kind of person I wished they would put into position as a Principal. Probably won’t happen anytime soon though.

By Former Teacher

March 7, 2006 11:41 AM | Link to this

As a former teacher who taught for 5 years before walking away a jaded, burned-out, hardened version of my former self… I can say that the reason teachers are leaving is due to the lack of authority combined with the excessive politics…

Between the parents and the administration and the politicians, teachers are pulled in all directions and have been stripped of any authority as to what and how to teach or discipline kids, who generally have little to no parental guidance. We had absolutely zero support from parents and principals alike…

And no, I didn’t leave to have kids, by the way, I work fulltime in the corporate world making twice the money with less than half the crap.

To all of you still teaching - God bless you! I personally couldn’t be happier to have my life back…

By silva

March 7, 2006 11:46 AM | Link to this

A TEACHER MYSELF I LOVE THE JOB BUT WE DON’T HAVE BACK UP, SO MUCH PAPER WORK NO POWER TO CONTROL YOUR CLASS,PARENT ARE DISRESPECTFUL,CHILDREN DISRESPECT,FIGHTS,BAD LANUAGE ALL DAY LONG,WE AS TEACHERS HAVE NO CONTROL AND IF MAKE A WRONG JUDEMENT CALL WE WILL BE FIRED,IT’S REALLY SAD THE SCHOOL SYSTEM DON’T STAND BEHIND THE TEACHERS, NO MATTTER HOW THE CHILDREN CUSS US OUT OR HOW MANY TIMES WE GET HURT BREAKING UP FIGHTS WE HAVE NO ONE TO BACK US AS TEACHERS THE RESPECT LEVEL IS SO BAD IN THE SCHOOLS. WE HAVE TO TAKE A LOT AND GET NOTING IN RETURN.

By jim d

March 7, 2006 11:48 AM | Link to this

Nope, simply reasons why Former teacher left.

Follow up survey says differently about most teachers. You fall into the 2% bracket.

By T-Man

March 7, 2006 11:51 AM | Link to this

Clayton schools are some of the worst in the metro area. As we all know the education system state wide is broke. Who can fix it???? The teachers can with support from the administration and new laws of discipline. Is this going to happen?? NO, NO, NO. We will be discussing this same topic years from now. The APS system is our historical picture and Clayton will be our historical picture 5 years from now. The problem is the way it spreads. How far out do you have to move for the good schools? How far in five years will you have to move and 5 years after that. Until Georgians stand as one and make laws dealing with behavior in schools the bad kids will always win. Counting on the parents to do their part is not working and will not work. There is no accountability in making sure your kid is good in school. The change will have to come from the top and the NCLB act is not helping. The next blog should be, How a law should be structured to take control of our schools. Until then some of the best educators will be sitting in the cubical next to you and the technology for the future will be made in other countries as our kids get dumber.

By Former Teacher

March 7, 2006 11:57 AM | Link to this

To “A Teacher” from the “X-teacher” -

I know exactly what you mean… my only recourse was “time out” - try telling a kid who is cursing, spitting, and throwing a chair at a classmate to “go to time out” mid-tantrum and see what happens. You guessed it - nothing. They know that all they have to do is ignore the consequence and that beyond that we have no authority. At least OSS is an option for you - as you said it’s a vacation for the student but at the very least it gets the disruption out of your classroom and gives the other students (and the teacher) a break from it.

At my school, I was not allowed to send the child to the principal’s office, or send them home, or send them to another room. (She let me call the parent in once, and when the parent, principal and I met in the office to discuss the behavior, the principal told the parent that I didn’t have a strong, firm enough voice and that’s why the child wasn’t listening or following instructions.) I was basically left to fend for myself, and the students knew if they ignored me, there wasn’t a whole heck of a lot I could do about it. It doesn’t take them long to figure it out!

Teachers are basically abused by the system, the kids, the parents, and the administration ~ it is a sad state of affairs. You graduate from college thinking you can change the world or make a difference, but a few horribly disruptive students can affect the learning environment for everyone and there’s nothing teachers can do about it the majority of the time - everyone is suffering.

Good luck to you!

By jim d

March 7, 2006 12:03 PM | Link to this

Geez, no wonder kids don’t listen to some teachers. You can be presented with hard—documented facts and you choose to ignore them.

Why do you do that?

By Zoe

March 7, 2006 12:06 PM | Link to this

Jim,

On our faculty of over 100 teachers, 10 women have had babies in the past 2 years. Of those 10 women, 100% returned to work after their maternity leave is up. Almost every woman I know in our school system that had a baby returned to work. The irony is, a teacher that adopted a child several years ago resigned to take care of her adopted child.

By Nel

March 7, 2006 12:08 PM | Link to this

Jim, he is a very calm, serious person who has a wacky side, which is the type of personality that I think works well with kids. He gave it three years and left in large part due to frustration with school administation. He is also a very calm but serious person. It is probably harder for young idealistic teachers to go with the status quo, especially if they see it’s not working in that particular environment, so they use their options. He started out in the perfect setting at school with amazing parental involvement, administrative support, and what was probably the perfect teaching environment, and the parents loved his teaching style. He left there because he felt there were kids who needed him more…he’s probably watched “To Sir With Love” too many times. Between transitioning to the college level he got sidetracked by corporate America.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

March 7, 2006 12:13 PM | Link to this

Susie,

I want to thank you for the comments regarding the kids and parents, when it comes to disciplinary actions. I know that child abuse is a problem and many kids are indeed abused at home. However, the government has made it very easy for a child to claim child abuse, when a child truly needs to be disciplined.

I know that many people don’t believe in spanking children and that is their choice. I know first hand, what a good spanking for inappropriate behavior can do for a child. It kept me in-line as a child and the very strict discipline made me a better adult and parent. Many of the kids I grew up with were not disciplined the way, my sister and I were disciplined. Many are in jail and the others want to know how my sister and I have done so well in life, when we all came from the same neighborhood. They face the same challenges with their kids, as did their parents. They have/had no rules and no consequences when the rules are broken.

Yes, many parents fear going to jail for child abuse. My rules are clearly posted for my daughter, relatives and friends to see. However, I have told my daughter that -I will gladly go for doing my job as a parent. I don’t think we will ever have that problem.

I have met some great teachers when it comes to disciplining children. My daughters 5th grade teacher is a take no prisoners type of woman and I’m glad my daughters in her class. My daughter told me a few months ago, that she is the goto “Teacher”, when the other teachers have a problem with a student. Now that’s a teacher who deserves to become Principal.

By jim d

March 7, 2006 12:16 PM | Link to this

How can y’all be so stubborn and argue with facts?

Open this webpage and read it for yourself. Teachers are NOT walking in mass because of lack of support.

I realize support may be an issue but according to the numbers it is NOT the issue you are making it out to be.

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/2005/analysis/sa09.asp

By Vel

March 7, 2006 12:35 PM | Link to this

Amazed, if you had not said that the “go to” teacher is a 5th grade teacher, I would’ve thought you were talking about me. :-) I agree with you that a good spanking is what a lot of these kids need. I guarantee you that if a few examples were made using a good, old-fashioned thick paddle, there would be a great decline in discipline problems. ISS in elementary schools would be obsolete.

By Nel

March 7, 2006 12:39 PM | Link to this

All the teachers that I know who have left did so because of frustration with the system. From the other perspective, the schools that my children attend have teachers who have been there for years, women who’ve left and had babies then returned, some who are teaching children they have known since pre-k. For those that I know, they tend to stay at their particular locations so long as there is a sense of ownership, when that changes significantly, many opt to retire early.

By jim d

March 7, 2006 12:41 PM | Link to this

I GIVE UP!!!!

By Robert

March 7, 2006 12:43 PM | Link to this

jim d, Get off of your high horse! I am sure that people that contribute to this blog are doing so from their own experiences and their own observations. Your link does nothing to change this. In fact, if you read your own link, the support that they discuss is support the school gets from the COMMUNITY which has nothing to do with the support a teacher should get from the ADMINISTRATION.

Besides, if a teacher leaves a school due to poor administrative support, do you really think that they will say or write that the administration is horrible? Most teachers are smarter than this and will simply state that the reason for leaving is “personal” or due to “family” or some other soft excuse and not because the administration is horrible.

By jim d

March 7, 2006 12:46 PM | Link to this

Ok Robert, I’ll take your word for it. Teachers are liars.

By first grade teacher

March 7, 2006 12:49 PM | Link to this

OK so officially teachers may not leave because of lack of support. I would never have said that was the reason I left until I secured my job in another district either. I was NEVER questioned as to why I left after I was gone. I can only speak for myself and 4 others who I know personally that left one distrct for another last year. Every one of us left because of lack of support from administration or fear of unfounded parent acusations. This may cause family problems - stress or it may be because the new school is closer to home. BUT how can you say 20% of your teacher work force leave every year because of retirement? That is what I estimated Clayton County lost last year was 20% of its teachers. Compare that with the retention of 92% of Henry County teachers. I know why I came to Henry County. I know I have a solid school system that is not being blown by the wind. AND yes, lack of support was my reason for leaving Clayton County.

By jim d

March 7, 2006 12:52 PM | Link to this

FGT, “I” didn’t say it. The survey did.

By Susie

March 7, 2006 01:01 PM | Link to this

Ok, Vel, so what are you saying, that parents of bad children should be locked up after the “third strike?” And what are we going to do with all these kids whose parents are in jail? Are YOU gonna let them come live with YOU?

And for the record, my kids have had their share of spankings, which is why I don’t hear any complaints from their teachers now.

By jim d

March 7, 2006 01:14 PM | Link to this

Vel, If you’re insinuating spanking a child makes them a better students, I’d have to disagree. I’ve never had to hit mine—and he’s ok. Don’t take my word for it. You are welcome to ask his teachers.

A child can be raised without having to be beaten into submission.

By Vel

March 7, 2006 01:16 PM | Link to this

Susie, I’m confused. Where in my comments did I say anything about parents going to jail? I think you have me mixed up with someone else.

By Vel

March 7, 2006 01:21 PM | Link to this

jim, spanking and beating are two different things. I didn’t say that spanking makes a child a better student; however, it does give the child a lesson about consequences.

Without opening a Pandora’s box, I believe heavily in what the Bible says about using the “rod of correction”. The book of Proverbs has a lot to say about using “the rod” to discipline children. So, there. ;-)

By Nel

March 7, 2006 01:32 PM | Link to this

Jim, FGT has a point. I know a few teachers whose official reason for leaving was family reasons, but they were beyond dealing with the status quo so they left either to a different system or until a spot opened up at a school they felt they could operate in effectively. By the way, my brother whom I mentioned earlier, did what the Neighborbood Charter School parents did, secured their charter, got a building that the renovated themselver and started their own charter school.

By Angie M.

March 7, 2006 01:49 PM | Link to this

I am not surprised that teachers are leaving the profession. I am surprised that anyone would choose to go into it. My hat is off to all of them…you are brave, brave souls.

My kids go to private school predominantly because of the discipline issues being discussed here. Not that private school is perfect by any means…we’ve definitely dealt with kids each year that are “problem children”. But they eventually leave, or can be dismissed if they cause too much trouble. Parents often put their problem kids in private school, but later realize that it doesn’t change anything and they can let their kids go disrupt public school for free. That is one huge reason that the financial sacrifices we make to pay tuition are worth it. Perhaps it isn’t true across the board, but at least at our school, disruptive children are not welcome to stay if they can’t get their act together.

I know that private schools often do not pay as well as public, but if you are a teacher with a heart for teaching, why not give it a try? Private schools definitely have plenty of their own issues, but at least there, I feel that each parent and each teacher has a voice. If things aren’t progressing in a way that it beneficial to all, it seems that things are fixed a little easier than in the public school system.

And about the kids having too much power to yell “child abuse” and have their folks arrested for it…here is what worked for my strong-willed son when he threatened me with that (and for the record, it wasn’t following a spanking, though we have spanked him before. It was because I took away his Xbox and made him stay in his room the remainder of the day for being rude to me). I spelled out, in terms he could understand, exactly what happens to KIDS who end up in the foster care system due to being taken away from their parents. After learning that he would have to leave his home, probably be separated from his brother, be separated from his pets (and no one would be left at home to take care of them because we would be in jail), and have to go live in a house full of strangers that probably didn’t have anywhere near the toys, gadgets, etc. that he has come to enjoy…he gave calling 911 a second thought and hasn’t threatened us with that since. Kids are selfish by nature…show them what they stand to lose and they’ll change their tune real quick.

I agree that child abuse is a horror to be avoided at all costs…but all costs within reason. Giving kids so much power by teaching them to call 911 if they don’t agree with being disciplined is just one example of how crazy our society has become. Normal, ordinary, non-abusive parents feel like they can’t do what is necessary to keep their kids in line, and the chaos in our schools is part of what society is reaping in return.

By Former Teacher

March 7, 2006 01:53 PM | Link to this

Jim, Are you or have you ever been a teacher? Just curious. If you shared that information in an earlier posting I must have missed it… Have you ever taken statistics, sociology, or science class? The results of a single survey cannot be the “end-all, be-all” answer… To truly answer the question accurately one would have to consider multiple studies by multiple organizations… not just the results of ONE survey completed by ONE source…especially that which is a government organization, and is not a neutral party in analyzing public education… let’s consider the source too….It looks like a conflict of interests to me… Why are you so adamant about this survey anyhow…are you with the NCES??? I’m just curious as to your vested interest in the topic and your personal experience… please share, beyond quoting the survey results from that one website… I could go interview 30 teachers right now and publish the “results” on-line and quote percentages, etc…that doesn’t make it an accurate representation…. it seems like anyone who’s ever actually been a teacher and worked in the schools has experienced something different from what your beloved, “all-knowing” survey claims to have found. I wonder why that is?

By Nel

March 7, 2006 01:56 PM | Link to this

Spanking works with some kids and will not with others. There are many ways to get a child’s attention without getting physical and as a parent, you can reach most kids by taking something away from their daily routine to get their attention, but you have to be consistent. Kids learn soon after birth how to get their way and they milk it for all it’s worth, we as parents need to learn that lesson. Of course, there are those kids that no “traditional” means will work on.

By Vel

March 7, 2006 02:02 PM | Link to this

I like you, Angie M. Amen to everything you said!

By first grade teacher

March 7, 2006 02:08 PM | Link to this

OK “I” stand corrected. “You” did not state the facts but you did put them up as something that should not be argued with. As you know, any statisic can be challenged. New information can bring new light to former statistics. Also the survey you sited was giving information from 2001. Things have changed in some counties quite a bit since then. Maybe that brings new insight to the disagreements.

By So Mad

March 7, 2006 02:16 PM | Link to this

Jim have you ever taught before? Okay then. Listen I teach in Clayton County now. Yes I am leaving and yes it has to do with many of the problems we are having. Screw what the stats say I’m telling you first hand….anytime students feel it is ok to curse a teacher out or walk up on them to fight them or literally swing at them there is a serious problem…and for your information most male teachers in our county aren’t quitting…it is the females. It’s not a black thing or a white thing….I’m black and I feel just like my white counterparts do! When was the last time you drove down to Clayton County to sit and talk to a student….or find a parent to talk to? It’s sad. And in many cases the parents act worse than the kids. They will curse you out before the child does….and everyone worries of AYP….well maybe if these children had been BEAT we wouldn’t have HELL on our hands!

By Zoe

March 7, 2006 02:30 PM | Link to this

Jim mentioned why teachers leave teaching citing a link from the National Center for Educational Statistics. The real meat is actually also mentioned on that page. It is a survey of why teachers transfer schools.

The five most commonly reported sources of dissatisfaction among teachers who transferred to another school were lack of planning time (65 percent), too heavy a workload (60 percent), too low a salary (54 percent), problematic student behavior (53 percent), and a lack of influence over school policy (52 percent).36 Among leavers, the five most commonly reported sources of dissatisfaction were a lack of planning time (60 percent), too heavy a workload (51 percent), too many students in a classroom (50 percent), too low a salary (48 percent), and problematic student behavior (44 percent)

This survey is from teachers leaving in the 2000-2001 school year. This would be pre 9/11 and the stock market crash when jobs were aplenty and there were other options. I am sure if the same survey were done today, there would be dramatically different answers.

By g8trh8tr

March 7, 2006 03:31 PM | Link to this

My wife was a teacher for 5 years, but she quit when we had our first child. The reason she didn’t go back to teaching was the lack of support from administration, kids with discipline problems, and the parents who think their kids can do no wrong. After hearing her tell about the things she had to deal with, I knew there was no way in the world I could ever be a teacher. I’d be fired and in jail within a week, because I wouldn’t put up with their crap.

By Pat M.

March 7, 2006 03:38 PM | Link to this

I left Atlanta Public Schools because the behavior at my school was out of control!! When the student were sent to the office, the principal would put them on the computer and they would be playing computer games. One time I walked into the teacher’s lounge and there was a student stretched out and sleeping on the couch. When asked why he was there, he said he was put out of his class for misbehaving and the principal put him in the lounge. WOW!! That’s some puishment!! I’m now in another system and this school is a little better when students are misbehaving. Administrators need to relize that young people are not going to stick around to teach when there is no or very little support. There’s already a teacher shortage!! What’s going to happen 10 or 15 years from now when there are no young adults to take our place when we retire?

By g8trh8tr

March 7, 2006 03:48 PM | Link to this

I forgot to mention above that my wife did go back to work. She’s now a realtor. My little sister is in college now getting a degree in education. My wife, parents, and I all tried to talk her out of it. I just hope that she does not one day regret that she didn’t listen to us.

By labmom

March 7, 2006 04:43 PM | Link to this

I can’t imagine a teacher going to his/her adminsitrator and saying, “I’m leaving my position because you don’t support me.” (Here, let me just go ahead and cut off my nose.) There is always the “acceptable” outward excuses as to why you want to get out of a school. Those excuses include: looking for something closer to home, childcare problems, need to be closer to elderly parents etc. You’re not really lying. You’re using a more palatable but not necessarily primary reason. The pretty excuses prevent you from burning bridges.

By Elsie

March 7, 2006 06:24 PM | Link to this

Labmom~ I completely agree with you. If you take just these two stats: “wanting a better salary and benefits (14 percent), and wanting to pursue a different kind of career (13 percent)”, that’s already 27%. It all depends on how you interpret these: “wanting a better salary” really means “you don’t pay me nearly enough to put up with all this BS” and “wanting to pursue a different kind of career”- Hello? Aren’t we seeing WHY teachers want to pursue a different kind of career?

By Imaginative Teacher

March 7, 2006 06:29 PM | Link to this

I taught Clayton County’s children for ten years, and although I cared about them a great deal, I went to Henry County because I could no longer do my job under a low-skill, high-participation principal. I say to the citizens of Clayton County:

You’re paying the salaries of hundreds of people with advanced degrees in education. You’re paying the salaries of the current superintendent, plus the two you already fired. You’re paying the Kaplan Corporation to rearrange the order of teaching the chapters in the textbooks. Aren’t you already paying teachers who know how best to do that?

Yet your schools are a mess. They’re plagued with fighting, gang activity, and ineffective leadership. Good students are fleeing. In a time of teacher shortages, good teachers are leaving you in droves, yet no administrator or school board member has lifted a finger to stop the hemorrhage. (The year I left, eight of the ten department chairs in my school left and neither the principal nor any other school official was concerned enough to ask us why.)

Your parents are pounding on the doors of neighboring school systems, begging them to enroll their children. So many Clayton parents are registering students with phony address documentation that adjacent school systems have hired law enforcement to seek out the intruders and oust them.

Why are you not sounding the alarm on this urgent situation? You should be at the school board meetings, standing up and speaking out. Your local newspaper should be running vigorous editorials instead of sending reporters who sit on the sidelines dutifully taking notes. Your business owners—especially realtors—should be organizing a concerted action to improve the schools.

Demand strong, well-prepared principals who support teachers. Demand that your superintendent come out of her office, meet with teachers and hear what’s happening on the front lines. When teachers take the initiative to meet with your assistant superintendent, pay attention to what they say.

Above all, stand behind your principals and teachers when they do their jobs. Demand that fighters and gangsters be permanently removed from the schools. Make the central office lean and efficient. Before you sign a contract with any corporation to solve a problem, make use of the talent and intelligence you have in the house. Demand that the school board put the kids first and earn that raise they just gave themselves. Be positive, active supporters of your schools!

OK, so you’ve worked all day and you think you’re too tired to go to the school board meeting. If your child doesn’t get a good education, you’ll be the one supporting him into adulthood. Clayton County Schools was once an excellent school system. It can be again, but only if you—the parents and citizens—put forth the effort to fix your own problems.

By luvs2teach

March 7, 2006 07:02 PM | Link to this

Jim D - read your link, and it was similar to information I had read elsewhere - unless you’re just trying to stir things up, you’re the one not reading things clearly, IMHO.

“Lack of support from the community” was listed at 2% - that, to me, is not the same as lack of support from administration and/or parents. I consider “wanting a better salary and benefits (14 percent), and wanting to pursue a different kind of career (13 percent)” to be fairly similar, and 27% leaving for that is pretty significant.

What was left out in your first set of quoted stats (that looked at teachers who left the profession) was the stats of teachers who left one school for another. The most critical factor, I thought, was that 53% left due to “problematic student behavior.” They didn’t give up teaching - they just went to “better” schools with “better” kids. This is what most of those leaving Clayton are probably doing. I have heard horror stories from colleagues about what Clayton schools are like, and I thank my stars that I don’t teach there.

BTW - I said that I left to be closer to home - the truth, but not the whole truth.

By luvs2teach

March 7, 2006 07:03 PM | Link to this

Jim D - read your link, and it was similar to information I had read elsewhere - unless you’re just trying to stir things up, you’re the one not reading things clearly, IMHO.

“Lack of support from the community” was listed at 2% - that, to me, is not the same as lack of support from administration and/or parents. I consider “wanting a better salary and benefits (14 percent), and wanting to pursue a different kind of career (13 percent)” to be fairly similar, and 27% leaving for that is pretty significant.

What was left out in your first set of quoted stats (that looked at teachers who left the profession) was the stats of teachers who left one school for another. The most critical factor, I thought, was that 53% left due to “problematic student behavior.” They didn’t give up teaching - they just went to “better” schools with “better” kids. This is what most of those leaving Clayton are probably doing. I have heard horror stories from colleagues about what Clayton schools are like, and I thank my stars that I don’t teach there.

BTW - I said that I left to be closer to home - the truth, but not the whole truth.

By still in Clayton

March 7, 2006 08:39 PM | Link to this

I have been a high school teacher in Clayton for a number of years and I am returning next year. I see some of what some of the other posters have said but certainly not enough to go somewhere else. I have excellent students and in fact I haven’t sent anyone to the office yet this school year. My kids mostly do their work, and they do what I tell them to do. I’ve only been cursed at once in the past 3 or 4 years, by a WHITE kid. Maybe I live in a fantasy world, but I think I’m a fairly average white guy with a good sense of humor and pretty quick wit. I don’t know if that prevents problems but it just may be part of why I have had so few of them. Even if I did change school districts, it would probably be to Fulton (south) or Dekalb because Henry or Fayette would be too far of a commute and I’m not willing to move from my excellent location in Atlanta. I have certainly questioned a lot of the decisions made in the central office, but I have heard horror stories about lousy and political principals and out-of-touch central office people from friends teaching in other districts, including APS, Fulton, Dekalb, Henry, Douglas, and Gwinnett right off hand, and probably others I just haven’t thought of right now. Am I convinced the grass is necessarily greener elsewhere? Well, if I’m basically satisfied here in Clayton, I’d have to say no.

By jim d

March 8, 2006 08:09 AM | Link to this

So Mad and Former teacher,

Sorry I wasn’t avoiding your question, just actually had to go to work yesterday.

Funny you should ask if I’m an educator or had ever been one. I’ve been asked that question on several occasions, generally by thinking impaired educators who fail to grasp the concept that one need not be an educator to be involved and informed about educational issues.

I’m really tired of having to justify myself by placing my bio on these blogs, but if doing so once more helps you understand that you don’t belong to an exclusive club in that you provide an education to our children, I will do so once again.

NO, I’m NOT A PAID, PROFESSIONAL EDUCATOR.

Not to say I don’t teach. I take some of the kids many of you have given up on. Those that are ADD, ADHD, BI-POLAR, Dyslexic, uncared for by parents and teachers alike, kids from broken homes, homes of drug addicted and alcoholic families, kids with little or no self esteem and mentor them through a program called Boy Scouts of America. Helping them to discover their true worth, the joy’s to be had through cheerfully giving back to the community, to discover they can accomplish all things and become a great addition to society.

I became involved in public education about 7 years ago when high stakes testing was first being pushed down our throats. Since that time I’ve become a member of a school council, attended state and local board of education meeting, spoken publicly at our local BOE meetings, and have educated myself about the politics of education.

I read incisively about educational issues and have written more than a few opinions. I scan and read local newspapers across the country daily for articles regarding education, Blog on a few blogs like this one. Bird-dog our local, state and federal lawmakers on educational issues. Oh, and in my spare time I operate my own business and maintain a family life.

Now, please allow me to ask the two of you, when was the last time you attended a school council meeting? Went to a state or local BOE meeting or really even made a difference in the life of a kid that was begging for help? When was the last time you wrote a law maker other than about legislation that would affect your take home pay?

By jim d

March 8, 2006 08:26 AM | Link to this

Luvs2teach,

not trying to stir the pot. just posted the results of the survey. Funny thing is that the 2001 survey supported what most are saying on this blog and many now disputing the 2005 survey would have used the 2001 survey from NCES to support their position. However, what I was attempting to point out is that there appears to be a change in why teachers are walking. Keep in mind I mentioned earlier on this blog that I felt there was a great deal of difference in the questions as to why they leave and why they don’t return.

No, what we have here is simply a few thinking impaired teachers that apparently believe any non educator is in a class below them. A syndrom I really should name since I’ve seen it displayed so often. Fortunately most of the teachers I know don’t have this problem.

By C.R.H.

March 8, 2006 09:19 AM | Link to this

Jim, since you seem to have ALL the answers, why don’t you just apply for a teaching job and help us because we are obviously not living up to your high standards? I can hook you up with several schools that would LOVE to have someone with your enthusiasm. Don’t use the excuse of running your own business, I run my own business and teach as well. And yes, my business is a full time job but luckily most of it is weekend & evening work.

By jim d

March 8, 2006 09:28 AM | Link to this

Actually CRH,

What I’m doing now with youth is more important and I don’t have to put up with all the stuff from parents that little johnny didn’t get a fair shake.

Know what I mean?

With what I’m doing, little johnny sets his own standards and goals and then fulfills them. No pressure!

By jim d

March 8, 2006 09:49 AM | Link to this

Actually CRH, My bad.

BSA sets standards and the scouts work at their pace to learn the skills.

Why not give something like that a shot in education? Set the Goals, allow students to work at their own pace to master the skills, testing for advancement when they feel they are ready?

By jim d

March 8, 2006 09:58 AM | Link to this

Besides that CRH, I think the teaching profession already has enough know it alls. :-)

By OldSchool

March 8, 2006 10:23 AM | Link to this

I actually thought I wanted to continue teaching at least a couple more years. This morning has me wondering if I have overstayed my welcome.

Is there any point at which students will actually retain some of the important bits of information and actually apply them in an assignment? This morning it was the measurement .5625 on the drawing assignment and the .563 on the decimal circle template. Lord, what an outcry from my board drafters! I actually saw several pull out calculators instead of simply rounding it up. They wanted me to “do the drawing” so they could lift the measurements from my work. When I explained that action would be cheating, the response I got was, “So?”

My advanced CAD drafters sat with their jaws dropped in amazement. I’ve taught and retaught the basics, given them ample opportunity to practice, and assigned drawings that build on the previous ones. I am at a total loss when they are 9 weeks into the term and will not produce quality work unless I stand over them and point out each construction, each line, each measurement.

With half my classes in this sinking ship, does it mean I’ve come to the end of my career and need to get out? Am I really this ineffective? Or are the 15-20 students who love my class and do outstanding work enough to justify signing one more contract?

By jim d

March 8, 2006 10:35 AM | Link to this

If you have one that got it—sign the contract.

We need good caring teachers.

By jim d

March 8, 2006 10:45 AM | Link to this

What alarms me is that we have so many teachers nearing retirement age and so few young ones staying once they enter the profession. Where will we be in 20 years if this trend continues, regardless of the reasons?

By Jeff

March 8, 2006 11:12 AM | Link to this

Jim:

In regards to your stance “that one need not be an educator to be involved and informed about educational issues”:

I’ve been an avid military follower all my life. I’ve trained myself and live according to many of US military’s virtues (particularly the US Marine Corps). But I’ve yet to sign the dotted line. My knowledge of Corps weaponry and tactics (unclassified, of course) would rival most Marines’ own, and even be superior to some. Yet I don’t see what they see, nor have I. And therefore there will ALWAYS be a BIG gap in my full comprehension of what a Marine does, the pressures that he faces, and how he thinks. Are they appreciative of civilians like me who at least have a good idea and are supportive? From the Marines I’ve talked to, undeniably. But at the end of the day, they are the ones who really know what they’re talking about… not me

Here’s where it applies to you: I AM a teacher. You’re not. Am I personally appreciative that there are people like you who take an interest and are infomed about educational iddues? Undeniably. But do you face the same pressures I face? Not in a million years. You can have all the head knowledge, but until you have the heart knowledge - from BEING a teacher - I will always have a more complete view of the issues than you.

By SO MAD

March 8, 2006 11:22 AM | Link to this

Jim Listen UP>>>>>>I go to every meeting…the ones that the parents don’t show up for…I stay in the evening to tutor….I enroll students in college with my own mony….i buy things when parents can’t afford it….I counsel students when they are pregnant….I help students take care of their childre….I help parents look for their kids when they run away from home….I support every after school organization that exists at my school….I call parents and attempt to rally support for our kids….I have written crongressmen and women….I have done research projects (2) on what we could do to get better….I started out teaching Special Education……So you asked me what I do…..I TEACH. I haven’t given up on my children…..I’m saving myself and my sanity…….I have taught in Clayton County for 4 years….God has blessed me and enabled to touch many lives…I thank Him for that and now I know that it is time for me to go!

By jim d

March 8, 2006 11:30 AM | Link to this

Thanks Jeff, while I disagree on the educational issue, I appreciate your thoughts.

I believe we non teachers can learn to appreciate what teachers are dealing with.

You state that you, being a teacher would always have a more complete view of the issues. I’m not too sure thats true. Sometimes standing on the outside allows one a clearer vision of whats really happening. No sir, I think teachers views might even be clouded at times because of their closeness and emotional ties to the issues.

By jim d

March 8, 2006 11:34 AM | Link to this

So Mad,

God bless you. I will pray he touches your heart and that you stay. Sounds like the kids need you, I know we as society need more like you.

By C.R.H.

March 8, 2006 12:04 PM | Link to this

Gee Jim, arrogant much? How do you figure working with youth in the manner you do is “more important” than what I, or any other teacher, does on a daily basis? I too give students opportunities, most of them just take a pass. Who should we blame? Maybe I should just send you the class of 22 9th graders I have where the average reading and math skills place them at the 4th grade level? If people on the outside have such a clear view of the problem, how come it is ALWAYS those same people who keep screwing up the educational system? You really have no idea about the many tasks we have to do DAILY.

By hs sped

March 8, 2006 12:22 PM | Link to this

Jim, you’re so annoying. Why not put your money where your big, opinionated mouth is and substitute teach? ha ha ha ha You’d not last 1/2 a day! By the way, in addition to teaching spec ed, I also am involved with the Boy and Girl Scouts (as a leader), and it’s not the same AT ALL.

By Lee

March 8, 2006 12:49 PM | Link to this

A few thoughts:

By Lee

March 8, 2006 01:09 PM | Link to this

Regarding Jim D., thank goodness there are private citizens out there that care enough to get involved in public education because it is apparent that the “professionals” we taxpaying citizens hired have made a mess of things.

As to Jim not being a teacher, I would say that you don’t have to be a CPA to know that the tax code is a mess.

I love it when a (alleged) teacher tells a non-teacher that “they wouldn’t last a day teaching.” I usually reply, “how hard could it be, you’re a teacher.”

HS SPED is right about one thing, teaching is not the same as coaching or scouting. You see, Boy Scouts are there because they want to be. You want to improve schools, eliminate the compulsive attendance laws and get the small percentage of future criminals out of schools. You would see a dramatic shift in the achievement levels of the remaining students, IMHO. You can’t teach a student who has no interest in learning and it is difficult to teach a good student while he is sitting there worried about getting jumped on walking down the hall after class.

By NC Teacher

March 8, 2006 01:28 PM | Link to this

Lee, I love your comment, “how hard could it be, you’re a teacher”. I don’t ever tell people they wouldn’t last a day teaching because most likely I wouldn’t last a day at their job. Really now, the headaches and sore rumps one must get at an office job looking at a computer all day. No Thanks! Anyway, your suggestion about getting the future criminals out of school is a popular one. The problem is there is no where to put them, alternative schools are full and there aren’t nearly enough of them. So what happens then is these “future criminals” we put out of school and onto the streets are the ones who will be robbing your house while you’re at work. Their parents need to be held responsible so they get a clue and get their kids straight. Courts and the law need to get involved. And if you know what Wilderness Camps are, we have them in NC and we need more of those too. They are great! If you want to get the problem kids out of school, you need somewhere else to put them, and therein lies the problem.

By Lee

March 8, 2006 01:53 PM | Link to this

NC Teach, I say that knowing that I could never be a teacher. My wife and daughter are both teachers, so I hear all the horror stories and also get to share in their glory sometimes ( you know, when a former student comes up to them and hugs their neck and tells them how much they appreciate what they did for them…) I’ve said many times in these blogs that for the great teachers, teaching is a calling.

By jim d

March 8, 2006 02:54 PM | Link to this

CRH, perhaps I should have said its more important to me. How’s that?

By hs sped

March 8, 2006 03:35 PM | Link to this

Everyone should read, Rereading America. An excellent collection of stories that present a multitude of views.

By jim d

March 8, 2006 03:37 PM | Link to this

hs sped, come to my world.

Doubt you’d make it more than a couple of seconds. 2400 vac can stop the old ticker pretty quick.

By Lee

March 8, 2006 03:44 PM | Link to this

CRH, you posted above about the “class of 22 9th grade students reading on a 4th grade level.”

I wish someone would explain to me how the 5th - 8th grade teachers could pass these students along. Teachers complain all the time about all the testing - but it’s sorta like the chicken and egg analogy. We probably wouldn’t have all this testing if the system wasn’t graduating illiterates. The testing is a feeble attempt to identify these issues in time to correct them. Of course, now the focus from administrators is “got to get the test scores up.”

Its a vicious circle….

By C.R.H.

March 8, 2006 04:53 PM | Link to this

It isn’t the teachers (in most cases)who are sending these low performing students to the next grade. The problem is that many of these students have failed so many times they have to be moved on, no one wants a 17 year old in the 8th grade or a 14 year old in the 5th grade, so they get sent on. Parents are also part of the problem.In some schols a student can’t be held back unless the parent agrees to this, many don’t.

By hs sped

March 9, 2006 12:07 PM | Link to this

A big vacuum cleaner? A big black hole? What?

By Jo

March 10, 2006 04:11 PM | Link to this

To Set: I guess you wouldn’t be able to pass the English portion of the graduation test.

“a adult school”

Should be “an adult school”. I guess you should be a little more careful. Something or someone just might hold you back.

By Carlos Love

March 13, 2006 11:29 AM | Link to this

Hey guys,

I am at a middle school in Dekalb County and you want to talk about no discipline from Administration. I do ISS and this year there have been times when I write kids up and nothing happens to them. SOmetimes i feel like I should just let the kids misbehave because there gonna do it anyway and the administration wont do anything like suspend kids who are completely out of control. Right now I have a kid in ISS this is his 6th day in a row, and everyday he does not do what he is supposed to. Wouldnt someone think and administrator would step in, pull the kid aside and talk to him? Of cousre not. Or at least not where I work at. i have thoughts of quitting all the time but the money is alright and i dont want to have to go through another job search. Tahnks hope everyone else has a better school than me:)

By jim d

March 13, 2006 11:52 AM | Link to this

2,400 volts Alternating current.

Care to grab hold?

By hs sped

March 13, 2006 12:01 PM | Link to this

I bet that’s what you ask all the women! You’re funny!

By another teacher

March 20, 2006 12:49 PM | Link to this

Jim: Are you alluding to the teacher who was fired when he gave kids the option of detention or holding the terminals of a car battery? My hero JK

BTW, I agree w/you about spanking. Mine were not spanked and I heard only great things about them from their teachers.