Get Schooled

By Robert

March 3, 2006 12:12 PM | Link to this

Come on Patti, the Georgia Performance Standards do tell you the content that is expected. How could you say otherwise? What more do you want? Seriously, I am curious.

For example, the students should know how to add, subtract, multiple and divide. How much more specific do you need?

High School Physical Science, SPS8, states that students should be able to calculate velocity and acceleration. That is about as simple as you can get. How in the world could the standard be more specific?

By Robert

March 3, 2006 12:18 PM | Link to this

Sorry, one more thought…

The problem is that the previous standards (prior to the GPS) were much too detailed. According to a study commissioned by the DOE, it would take 22 years of education for an average student to learn the amount of content in the previous standards. The amount of content and specific “trivia” in a high school biology class alone was enough to boggle the mind. Teachers were going as fast as they could and students were left behind and often became frustrated.

At least with the GPS, the teachers know the content expected and mostly have the “freedom” to teach the class according to the individual students. What a new idea! Let teachers teach and keep the administrators and politicans out of the classroom!

Give teachers a chance and then watch those standardized test score rise.

By Patti Ghezzi

March 3, 2006 12:32 PM | Link to this

Thanks for the response, Robert. I am not asking my questions very well. How well should a child be able to subtract to be considered proficient in that area? (Some kids can subtract if the numbers are small enough to use their fingers. Others can see the figures in their head and quickly get the right answer.)

I assumed that a child who “meets expectations” on the CRCT in math would be able to move to fourth grade without the need for remediation. Clearly that’s not the case, and state officials acknowledge that a child who barely passes will probably need extra help.

That’s where I’m confused. What does it mean to pass the CRCT? What does it mean to exceed expectations?

By V for Vendetta

March 3, 2006 12:46 PM | Link to this

The standard is dreck, that’s what it is. Last year I had one bad class, a class that was full of kids failing, constantly in trouble, disrespectful, etc. When the EOCT (End of Course Test) rolled around at the end of the year I was VERY suprised to get that particular class’s scores back.

Not one kid failed. In fact, not one of them was even remotely close to failing. Now, maybe I could have interpreted this as evidence of my amazing teaching job, but I doubt it. They were failing my class remember? Miserably. Horribly. We’re talking kids who had no right to be in the level they were in. It wasn’t apathy causing their low grades, it was lack of ability.

All that having been said, how the heck did they all score so high on the EOCT (a State mandated test)? There is only one answer. The tests, the standards, the expectations, are WAY TOO LOW. We can come up with all the bogus statistics we want to pat ourselves on the back with and make us feel like we are improving, but ANYONE can improve when you set the bar so low. Ours is set on the ground, so how could we NOT improve?

By Robert

March 3, 2006 01:11 PM | Link to this

Hey V - I had a class like that last semester. I attributed their failing grades in the class and their high EOCT scores to the fact that they were smart kids and not challeneged by the content. Therefore, they were bored and acted up (disrespectful, etc.), and in addition, they simply did not turn in work because they saw it “beneath them.” Without work, their grades were zeros.

I wanted to teach to a higher level, but that would have been unfair to the students in that class that were placed properly.

By Robert

March 3, 2006 01:14 PM | Link to this

Patti, I still have a problem with your question. Do you really think that the State government should have standards at that level? This is a bit much! Subtraction is subtraction, period. If the standard says to know subtraction in a certain grade, then that means all “types” of subtraction (if this helps you).

I very much think it would be a big mistake to ask politicans to get even more involved in education. They have already messed it up enough!

By Robert

March 3, 2006 01:15 PM | Link to this

Patti, Maybe your question should simply be: What does it take to pass the CRCT?

By Patti Ghezzi

March 3, 2006 01:30 PM | Link to this

Hey Robert, I’m really not asking my questions well. Thanks for your patience. How about this: How much is good enough to move on to the next grade?

By Millie

March 3, 2006 01:52 PM | Link to this

Okay, how about this…last year, I had a student completely illiterate, could not read or write—and he only needed 20 points to pass the CRCT in middle school.

By jim dumond

March 3, 2006 01:57 PM | Link to this

Indeed Patti,

“What is the standard in Georgia schools?�?

Whatever the state says.

“Are you clear on what the standard is supposed to be?�?

It’s clear as mud.

“Is it low? Is it high? Does it vary depending on the student?�?

YES

“How well should a child be able to subtract to be considered proficient in that area?�?

Better than just good enough to pass the test.

“What does it mean to pass the CRCT?�?

It means you’re not a total idiot, there is hope.

“What does it mean to exceed expectations?�?

Means you did better than the idiots.

I hope that clears it up.

Patti, IMHO, we can continue to raise standards and Teacher expectations but until such time as we truly accept that our current system no longer works and open the field up to competition, allowing free thinking and innovative methods of instruction to flourish, no meaningful measurement of educational success will be measured. Oh yeah, forgot to mention we need to go ahead and take education away from the politicians too.

By V for Vendetta

March 3, 2006 01:58 PM | Link to this

Yeah Robert, that was it, I promise. They were all so very intelligent the work was beneath them. Trust me, there is a big difference between kids who are “bored” as you say, and kids who are incompetent. Silly me, maybe I just cant tell the difference.

By jim dumond

March 3, 2006 02:04 PM | Link to this

Ok, you rephrased the question so here’s a rephrased answer.

“WHAT DOES IT TAKE TO PASS THE CRCT?�?

A living breathing soul that will show up on test day with a number 2 pencil.

By V for Vendetta

March 3, 2006 02:21 PM | Link to this

Right on Jim, your response up there had me laughing out loud on a Friday. You are right on the money. You’d have to be a spelunker to see how low the standards are!

By ted

March 3, 2006 02:26 PM | Link to this

Taking the caps lock off would certainly be a good start…

By MMM

March 3, 2006 02:30 PM | Link to this

How many of you know what “loam” is?

Did you grow up in a farming community?

This word was in the vocabulary section of the 3rd grade CRCT and our urban kids, refugee kids and many of our teachers from urban backgrounds and other countries did not know what it is. It might just give those rural kids a slight scoring advantage relative to the ghetto folks!

Seriously Patti, someone should investigate the subsequent failure rate in 3rd and 5th grade of those who just squeak through passing in the 2nd and 4th grade. We would be far better off if we did spent some money on remediation during the 3rd and 5th grade BEFORE those high stakes tests are given based on the earlier scores rather then waiting until 40% of the squeaker kids in 2nd flunk 3rd and we have to do summer school, repeat a grade, and bus all the kids around because the whole school flunks AYP. Chestnut Charter school has a waiver request up before the DeKalb county board next Monday night that asks that they be allowed to identify an additional 7% of students for EIPs and do just that.

It is amazing how much effort it is to get just a little flexibility and money to do something that makes common sense and that you are willing to be held accountable for.

By SET

March 3, 2006 02:30 PM | Link to this

Perhaps the way to run these tests is to set a Bell Curve and state that the bottom 25% will be failed every year. Or whatever percent you are comfortable with.

Keep the kids on a treadmill. You get better results overall.

By Robert

March 3, 2006 02:50 PM | Link to this

V - Wow. I was not trying to insult anyone. All I tried to do was share my experience with a class that had results similar to yours. No offense intended.

By Patti Ghezzi

March 3, 2006 03:00 PM | Link to this

V, Jim’s comments had me laughing too. My Get Schooled quote of the week also came from Jim D. “Patti, I highly recommend keeping your fingers out of rat cages.”

Ah, words to live by. My intelligence was not on full display that day.

By V for Vendetta

March 3, 2006 03:15 PM | Link to this

No Robert, it was my bad. I forgot one of the first rules of blogging and email: you cant hear the person’s tone of voice. Sorry for the snappy reply. Blog on everyone!

By Nel

March 3, 2006 03:22 PM | Link to this

I can’t wait to hear the “official” spin on this one. What is the true definition is of AYP? I’ve said it before, the teachers teach so they should be the ones formulating these tests, but one gets the impresson that nobody trusts the teachers to do that.

By Susie

March 3, 2006 03:36 PM | Link to this

Nel, do you know something the rest of us don’t? The only definition of AYP that I’ve ever heard of was Adequate Yearly Progress…is there a different one that isn’t made public?

By Jeff

March 3, 2006 03:58 PM | Link to this

I would agree that many of the kids are in a level they don’t belong in - below OR ABOVE. I’ve got students in Advanced classes that did great at a slightly lower level/ pace but are fighting to keep up with the advanced class. I’ve got kids that are SENIORS in a class learning about what the h#ll a triangle is!. (Not that this class should even be offered at the HS level, but that’s an enitrely diff rant!)

As far as standards in GA: Define “down” in space to be below whatever plane the earth currently resides in, as defined by the Equator. (The entire circumference of the equator being on the plane.) Leave Earth’s atmosphere and go down. When you reach the bottom, you MAY have reached the standards of education in this state… MAYBE. And BTW: Those are the standards for the “high level” kids! Athletes, particularly football players on state championships teams, are twice as low!

By jim dumond

March 3, 2006 04:20 PM | Link to this

The real humor is that I’ve already asked all these questions when Gwinnett started their “Gateway”.

Those are close to the actual answers I recieved.

By Nel

March 3, 2006 04:28 PM | Link to this

Susie, no I don’t know anything. It’s just that I’ve always had a problem with some school’s definition of the term “adequate” because adequate these days in education seems to mean just enough to barely get by.

By Jeff

March 3, 2006 04:35 PM | Link to this

One note:

When teachers try to push higher standards - and the ebst among us do indeed fight for higher standards - we get told from every angle - students, parents, AND admins - that it is too difficult for the student and that we should be more lax.

I’m still pushing for two of my classes to simply get to class ON TIME and keep their mouths closed!!! (Talk about LOW!!) I’ve got to get this most basic level of standrad accomplished before I can even BEGIN with the mathematical standards I have for them, and yet when I try to deal with it, I get no support!

By Roger

March 3, 2006 04:38 PM | Link to this

V and Robert - I’ve taught 11th grade Am Lit for several years and given the EOCT for that class. The results are curved. Each semester I average 6-8 failing students yet I think I have only had 1 person fail the EOCT. Students in my class who have had final grades in the thirties have scored 80’s on the EOCT- and our school forces to count it 15 percent. In some cases I’ve seen a high EOCT reward a student who was failing the entire semester with a passing grade. Next time you get your class final results look at the total correct answers then look at the grade given. You’ll see it is definetly on some sort of curve system. Quite frankly it’s BS.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

March 3, 2006 04:41 PM | Link to this

Finally - a great discussion.

The standards are very low and I don’t blame teachers for the standards. I blame parents who complain that their child has too much homework or should be outside playing, for this problem in education. Yes, the children should have at least one 20 to 30 minute free time a day. I would prefer 3 times a week – because my elementary school has gym and they get recess. I don’t think they need both. Gym is sufficient.

In my view: kids should be able to add, subtract, divide and multiply proficiently by the end of Third Grade. That includes decimals, fractions, word problems, money, elapsed time (Clocks) and all of the basics. Reading, Spelling and Language arts should also be the primary focus K – 3rd grade.

Forth Grade: should be used to enhanced the skills learned in K – 3rd grade and introduce Geometry and basic algebra equations. The reading material should be strictly comprehension, gathering facts and building confidence when new words are introduced (with definitions).

5th - 6th grade should be used to build upon everything learned in K – 4th grade. Introducing other educational material along the way. (Algebra, Learning to write research papers and building vocabulary could be a part of this new material). This would be the best period to dig deeper into science and social studies.

Vocabulary building is totally lacking in elementary school – which goes hand in hand with spelling.

The 7th – 8th grade: should be used to enhance overall math skills, reading, English, history and science. These kids should be ready for Algebra II and Geometry by the end of 8th grade.

The way our curriculum is structured and the grade level the material is being introduced is the biggest problem I see in GA. My daughter has exceeded every section of the CRCT, since we moved to this state.

I have a very close friend from China and we were comparing the educational curriculum in both countries. We are way behind in the way we introduce material. She was solving algebra equations in 5th grade.

By jim dumond

March 3, 2006 04:43 PM | Link to this

Patti & V, Glad I was able to bring a smile to your faces. Have a great week end.

By C.R.H.

March 3, 2006 04:47 PM | Link to this

The EOCT scores were grossly inflated last year. This year they have “corrected” the scores…in other words, the scores will be low this year. The scores last year were not an indication of the students ability…I too had many LOW (I mean REALLY LOW) students post passing scores. These kids couldn’t find their way home in the dark…from their neighbors house, let alone actually know anything about science. They weren’t just bored and not doing the work…THEY WERE INCOMPETENT!

By jim dumond

March 6, 2006 10:55 AM | Link to this

Patti, if you can’t get there on time just show up when you can. LOL :-)

By V for Vendetta

March 6, 2006 10:57 AM | Link to this

CRH, so if they are “corrected” this year, does that mean they are going to be really low? Now I will have an even worse problem, trying to explain to parents why their kid failed the class because they bombed the State mandated test. Wonderful, once again I am playing counselor and academic advisor instead of teacher.

Side note: Patti, can we have a thread on the “wussification” of public school? I was talking to a friend here about it this morning. Another friend who is an Elem. school PE teacher said that they are not allowed to play any games that keep score, pick teams, or have a “losing” side because that would make kids “feel bad”. How does this help kids prepare for the real world? They are going to get turned down for a job later in life, and then with a look of consternation on their face ask “Wait, I thought all I had to do was try and I would be rewarded!” I am in NO WAY saying this is only a sports related thing, I’m just using it as an example of how we are suddenly trying to make everyone feel like they are super-special individuals. Yet another colleague said she heard a rumor that they were going to get rid of zeros in our County. WHAT!?!?

By Nel

March 6, 2006 11:23 AM | Link to this

V, when I first moved to Georgia, someone told me that in Elementary school they really concentrated on teaching character more than academics. I’ve not experienced it but at one particular school my kids attended, they actually had a class in character education and learned a word every week and discussed it. The school also had a hard time keeping their test scores up.

By Patti Ghezzi

March 6, 2006 11:51 AM | Link to this

Nel: Georgia has a character education law, and “word of the week” was once a popular way to satisfy the requirement. Character ed was big in the late 1990s, but you don’t hear to much about it any more.

Sorry I haven’t posted a topic for the day. We got an upgrade on our blog software over the weekend, and the system isn’t letting me log in.

By C.R.H.

March 6, 2006 12:01 PM | Link to this

I’m trying not to laugh about V’s use of “wussification”…it is true we don’t want to “hurt their self-esteem” by having a, ummmm, “Non-winner”. How are do you get rid of 0’s? If they don’t turn something in or get everything wrong, what are you to do for a grade? I guess you just write N/A (no attempt) or L/S (lazy student).

By Vel

March 6, 2006 12:13 PM | Link to this

To some degree, Amazed, I agree with you on some of the concepts that should be introduced. However, as a parent and teacher, I feel that students should MASTER certain concepts that are appropriate for their ages. As a student who was in the “gifted” classes—which back in the 70’s and 80’s were determined by ability—from third grade until I graduated, I know firsthand about students having to master concepts. Whereas today’s students are “introduced” to concepts like multiplication and division in the second grade, by the time they get to fourth grade—the grade I teach—they still don’t know the basic facts of addition and subtraction. Finger counting should be finished by the time a child is in third gradem but I see it constantly.

As I stated before, I was in the “gifted” classes throughout most of my formative years; however, we were not introduced to certain concepts until we were mature enough to learn them. When I was in fifth grade, we were taught AND mastered the multiplication facts in TWO WEEKS!!! We understood the purpose of multiplication and when/how to apply it. By the time my little darlings (students)get to my class, they would have been “introduced” to multiplication for TWO YEARS!

To sum it up, I feel that today’s kids are being introduced to too much too soon, but are not mastering anything.

By Leia

March 6, 2006 12:14 PM | Link to this

C.R.H. - We dare not call a student “lazy”! We’d have to mark him/her M/C - for motivationally challenged.

By Vel

March 6, 2006 12:16 PM | Link to this

Oops! It should be “…third grade, but…”. The “m” is too close to the “,”. :-)

By jim dumond

March 6, 2006 12:29 PM | Link to this

Patti, Good to see your finger hasn’t become swollen and infected from the rat bite and that you’re still able to type.

Blog on!!

By Nel

March 6, 2006 01:28 PM | Link to this

Patti, I was wondering what had happened because this blog is now an integral part of my day…..can’t say the day is complete without pearls of wisdom from Jim D also.

By jim d

March 6, 2006 01:45 PM | Link to this

Nel, are we being sarcastic today?

:-)

By jim d

March 6, 2006 02:40 PM | Link to this

The absolute truth of the matter folks is that the cut scores on these type tests aren’t generally set until the test has been taken and scored—-so not too many fail.

I heard sone numbers a few years ago before the tests were administered that indicated GCPS, the largest system in Ga. would fail roughly 5% of their students.

Guess what? Yep, it’s been around that mark or just below it for the past several years. Now just exactly how do you suppose they knew that? And if they knew it in advance, why in heavens name didn’t they do something about it?

By Nel

March 6, 2006 02:46 PM | Link to this

Jim, sorry…we didn’t get to words with that many letters syllables yet so I don’t know what you might be referring to!

By Nel

March 6, 2006 02:49 PM | Link to this

I read the AP article where it said in some states, the pass rate was a high as 80%, but those same students passed closer to 20% and less on the national test. That is very frightening. I guess the only test that has any validity for us here in GA is the ITBS.

By jim d

March 6, 2006 02:49 PM | Link to this

Why indeed!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

By jim d

March 6, 2006 03:01 PM | Link to this

Nel, I’ve made previous mention on these blogs about the family ties between the Bush family and some of the people that started companies and have made great financial gain from some of his educational policies, yet most people just can’t see our president sinking so low as to put money ahead of our children.

I can see it why can’t they?

By jim d

March 6, 2006 03:16 PM | Link to this

One last point today.

Do your homework. It will take some time but check state by state. look closely and what you will discover is based on each states tests, most states will have about the same percentage of students that test as advanced and those that fail—everyone else falls somewhere in between. Ironically those percentages work out very closely from state to state as well.

Of course those that do a better job of lieing end up with a higher ranking nationaally. Thats why Georgia remains at the bottom.

We don’t lie well enough.

Have a great day!

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

March 6, 2006 03:22 PM | Link to this

VEL I think we are a lazy country and we expect our kids to be lazy.

My daughter learned to add, subtract, multiply and read before the age of three. Yes, she is in a gifted class. However, she is not smarter than the other kids in her school. I’ve been introducing her to “what others” consider advance topics since she was a toddler. By the way, I didn’t teach my 2 year old to ramble off the multiplication facts. I taught her to use the Abacus. We had a lot of fun with that math tool.

My daughter was nine months old, when I realized she understood what was going on around her. I use to read a book to her, that she loved and she laughed at whenever I read it. One day she reached out and grabbed a page, before I could turn it. She would not let go, so I read it over and over until she decided to let go. She would grab that same page from that day forward. By the time she was about 18 months old, she could recite that entire book. That day opened my eyes and I haven’t stopped introducing her to new things since that day. I never push, so if she looses interest, I don’t bring it up again.

So, you are correct the kids are not mastering the things they should master by end of grade. However, we are not introducing it to them too fast. We are not focusing on the right materials and building upon what they have learned in the past. Our method at this time is - master “this” and never bring it up again or at a later date. You can’t truly master multiplication in two weeks. You can learn them, but you have not mastered them. If you can retain what you learned and bring it over to the next level - then you have mastered the concept.

My daughter has mastered basic math, because she can now apply it with Algebra and Geometry.

By Nel

March 6, 2006 03:38 PM | Link to this

Frankly, until all parents realize that for a great many elected officials/career govenment employees, our kids are just a means to an end and this will continue in public education.

By jim d

March 6, 2006 03:45 PM | Link to this

Here are worrisome excerpts from a recent ACT report, you decide what the standards we set are.

Only 51 percent of last year’s high-school graduates who took the ACT examination had the reading skills they needed to succeed in college or job-training programs, the lowest proportion in more than a decade, according to a report scheduled for release today…

Overall (including Iowa, which has not identified state standards), nearly 60 percent— 29 states—do not have grade-specific standards that define the expectations for reading achievement in high school. If such standards don’t exist, teachers can’t teach to them and students can’t learn them. You can’t get what you don’t ask for…

Just over half of our students are able to meet the demands of college-level reading, based on ACT’s national readiness indicator. Only 51 percent of ACT tested high school graduates met ACT’s College Readiness Benchmark for Reading, demonstrating their readiness to handle the reading requirements for typical credit-bearing first-year college coursework, based on the 2004–2005 results of the ACT…

Student readiness for college-level reading is at its lowest point in more than a decade.

By first grade teacher

March 6, 2006 04:36 PM | Link to this

We finished our 4th grading period at our school. We gave grades in math but had to break it down into 12 sub groups. We had to test/grade on addition, subtraction, number recognition, number counting, graphing, word problems, place value, money, shapes, fractions, measurment and time. Every 6 weeks we have to assess and these areas and give a new grade. This is on top of 5 reading areas and 6 writing areas. ALl of this is first grade! We work as a school to try to stay on a consistant grading scale but you would get different expectations from all of us if you pulled us one by one (We have 9 first grade teachers at our school). We all know as experienced teachers what to expect from the CRCT but first grade is an overwhelming year. We keep putting more and more one these little ones and hear more and more about how they are failing. Someone tell me why do first graders need to know fractions or counting money up to $10.00, and change from $1.00. We even give them problems where they have 12 objects and have to put them in 3 equal groups. This is division! In first grade! Maybe the whole problem is we are pushing too much too young. I wonder….

By first grade teacher

March 6, 2006 04:47 PM | Link to this

One more thought: As a recent transfer from one school district to another, can someone explain why my students this year are ahead of my students from last year? I am teaching the same content, using the same materials, and focusing on the same standards. Students started close to the same academic level as in the other district as well. Maybe it comes from the great parents I have this year that are a part of their children’s educational lives. THANK YOU TO MY PARENTS!

By Vel

March 6, 2006 05:12 PM | Link to this

Amen, firstgradeteacher!! I thought I would pass out when my first grade son came home with a science sheet that focused on “mass”! I don’t remember learning about “mass” until I was about 5th or 6th grade.

Amazed, it sounds like you have a little prodigy on your hands. However, your child is definitely in the minority. Question, though. Even though your child has learned a lot, is she an analytical thinker? In other words, can she apply and connect what she’s learned to where she can learn some new things independently of her teacher? If so, you are definitely blessed!!! I have a room full of students who are so used to being told everything that they cannot form their own learning without bein told every little thing.

When I ask them to explain why and how they got their answers to questions posed after reading stories and passages, you can hear crickets chirping. Some are good at memorization, but most do have abstract and analytical thinking skills.

By Vel

March 7, 2006 08:38 AM | Link to this

Oops…I meant to say that most of my students do NOT have abstract and/or analytical thinking skills.

By C.R.H.

March 7, 2006 09:12 AM | Link to this

What is so amazing is that we pay lip service to creating kids that are “thinkers” and “probelm solvers” but that isn’t what we test them on. We test them on rote memorization of trivial facts and minutia. No wonder kids hate school & my subject (science).