Get Schooled

By Karen Armsby

December 29, 2005 08:27 AM | Link to this

If I had been that teacher I would have walked out, too. Her professional training is as a teacher, not a babysitter, and she finally reached the point where she acknowledged that she was unable to teach the hooligans, and so she was correct to leave. Too bad more teachers don’t leave. Too bad they don’t organize and strike, and demand that the spineless administrators do something to support them as teachers.

IMHO that is the root of the problem here; the school administrators, from the clueless school board and superintendent, to the principal, down to the grade level admin. They all failed to establish and maintain any code of acceptable conduct and enforcement of discipline. They caved into the students and their worthless parents, and didn’t back their teachers.

This teacher had no support from her wardens and so the inmates knew that they were in charge of the asylum.

By Dondon

December 29, 2005 09:04 AM | Link to this

teaching can be tough. I’m not suprised a teacher walked out. At some schools teaching is an insane job!

By Lee

December 29, 2005 09:05 AM | Link to this

The bad thing about this whole situation is that there were probably a few students in this classroom who would have loved to be in a “normal” classroom. Instead, they were put in the classroom from H3LL, fed a steady diet of ineffective substitute teachers, and then an inexperienced teacher who was set up to fail by the administration. For these few students, they have basically lost a year’s worth of instruction that can never be regained.

The story doesn’t say if the teacher went to administration for help. My guess is that she did, but they didn’t do anything. I have seen this numerous times, a new teacher is thrown into a classroom and the administrators close the door, says “Good Luck” and then walks away. These same administrator sit around scratching their head wondering why they can’t keep teachers.

To this teacher, I would say that not all schools are like this one. Believe it or not, there are schools where administrators do support their teachers and the students are there to learn. Keep trying.

By charley

December 29, 2005 10:20 AM | Link to this

Sooner or later the silent majority is going to rebel against the school administrators who are so money hungry and afraid of lawsuits that they allow anything to go on exxcept discipline and teaching. The problem is about the same all over the country, especially the south. When are we going to buckle down, kick the smart aleck class distubers who don’t want to l;earn out of school and allow the decent students their right to learn and progress? It must come or every emerging country in the world is going to surpaass us in education as have so many in the past decade.

By abc

December 29, 2005 11:18 AM | Link to this

The US ranks 18th in education internationally, behind South Korea, Japan, Singapore, Finland, Australia, Austria, Hungary, Netherlands and UK, among others.

Curiously, bad parenting isn’t cited as a reason why in this news story.

By luvs2teach

December 29, 2005 11:28 AM | Link to this

It’s interesting that this ties into the “Teacher Pay” topic also on the blog. Over there I stated that I feel my clients are the members of community I serve, not just the students and the parents I have. Administrators should feel the same way.

I don’t know what school this is (I really hope it’s not the high school my neighborhood feeds into!), but if I were a community member, I would be up in arms at this situation! If I owned property, a school of this low caliber will bring my values down. If I owned a business where I might hire teenagers, I doubt I’ll find any from this class.

The fact that ANYONE had to endure this from a group of CHILDREN is despicable. The fact that, as Lee stated, these children lost an entire year of education is the reality of teachers “voting with their feet.” Is that really what we want from our schools? Community members, whether you have children in your local schools or not, need to start hammering the powers that be for accountability not just in test scores, but in the behaviors that are conducive to learning.

Studies are showing that better schools with better behaved kids get and keep better teachers. What do you think will happen to test scores then?

By luvs2teach

December 29, 2005 11:43 AM | Link to this

abc - interesting article, yet you failed to mention that poor teaching wasn’t mentioned either.

From the article:

“The United States focuses more on procedure, and we try to teach many topics fast. Other countries tend to break topics up and go much more in-depth.â€? This is the whole “inch-deep, mile-wide” curriculum problem teachers have been complaining about. This is also something the NSTA (National Science Teachers of America) has been working very hard to change.

“There are environmental factors that are involved. I think there’s a shift in the mentality of both kids and parents,â€? he said. “Kids value different things these days, and schools are more diverse than they were 15 or 20 years ago. We’re more open culturally, but that has caused more division rather than unity in the country. Parent involvement has also decreased, and there are also discipline factors involved. Schools have lost a lot of control.â€? This relates directly to this post, as well as the results of the study I found that showed that teacher LEAVE the more diverse schools. abc - I know it’s not specifically “bad parenting” but parental involvement HAS decreased - that can’t be a good thing.

“The U.S. caters to students’ needs and wants,â€? said Matias Sueldo, a sophomore majoring in international relations who spent part of his education in Argentina.” Doesn’t this directly relate to the topic of breaking up the SAT? So tell me again, how exactly are we helping our kids when we modify the “standards” so everyone can meet them?

“It’s basically the teaching system, the values and cultures of a country that underlie its education system,â€? Sueldo said. “Other factors like funding really have nothing to do with it.â€? And that, my friends, is the crux of the matter - I don’t think we really do value education - oh, we pay it a lot of lip service, and we’ll throw a lot of money at it when it’s politically correct to do so, but we don’t truly value it - or at least, if we do, we’re not passing on those values to our children.

By BlindHogHomer

December 29, 2005 12:03 PM | Link to this

She is obviously a gutless, spineless woman that didn’t receive the currently trendy self-esteem centered education. She whines on and on about what she believes to be reasonable expectations for her class, but not a single word about what she did to move them toward those expectations. No attempts at discipline, nothing about going to administration for help with discipline, nothing about even trying to involve parents. Gump’s mother was wrong, life isn’t a box of chocolates, mostly you get what you deserve.

By MRC

December 29, 2005 12:03 PM | Link to this

I think the teacher was right in walking out. Why should she waste her time teaching ungrateful soon-to-be adults? If the parents don’t care enough to discipline their own children, then why should the teacher? I’m onlu 25 and I hate the way kids are raised nowadays. My grandparents raised me to be respectful and if I disobeyed, I got a beating. Now, parents don’t care for some reason. I would have walked out also and took my talent where it would be appreciated. They all need to be sent into the military for at least two years out of high school. That would really teach alot of these young kids discipline and respect.

By scuse me

December 29, 2005 12:09 PM | Link to this

Lee,

I suspect there were more than a few students that would have liked to have walked out.

To reitterate what I’ve posted many times on these blogs; Kick the kids out that aren’t interested in learning, they are detracting from those that are.

I don’t understand why thats such a hard concept for people to grasp. If we were to kick a few out the others would soon get the message.

We do not owe these kids an education. We do owe them an opportunity to become educated. Education is not a right nor is it an entitlement, it is a priviledge and if they don’t want it we should not be attempting to force it on them.

KICK THEM OUT

By Carrie

December 29, 2005 12:15 PM | Link to this

If someone spoke to me or acted the way those kids act in a meeting at my work I would have walked out, too. And the offender would have been escorted out minutes later.

While I don’t want to promote beating children there is nothing wrong with a spanking here and there. My dad just had to pretend he was going to get out of his chair and we immediately stopped what we were doing. The funny thing is that I was spanked maybe twice in my life, but I knew it COULD happen so I behaved.

By Carrie

December 29, 2005 12:24 PM | Link to this

Also, if a teacher had ever called my parents I would have been in trouble even if the teacher was “out to get me” because I would have done something for the teacher to be “out to get me”…..and, parents, they are not out to get your child. If you are getting a call from school there is a 99.99999% chance your child did it - don’t defend them just correct the behavior.

My parents had the theory (which I now share) that even if you didn’t do the thing you were accused of you still probably did something that they don’t know about. This may sound harsh, but the reality is that we never got into trouble because we behaved and could be trusted. We didn’t even have a curfew because we could be trusted to not get into trouble and to come home at a reasonable time. None of this has to be this hard if we teach consequences early in life.

By Dick

December 29, 2005 12:30 PM | Link to this

You cannot ask those who don’t want to learn to leave the system, money is tied to federal governmental assistance based on daily average attendance. One way to get parents/guardians attention is in lieu of expelling the child, make the parents/guardian come in and do so much volunteer work at the school, specifically in their childs room. Would be like community service ordered by a Judge. If parent had to put up with what a teacher puts up with for 3 hours, am sure the child would know difference in speaking up and shutting up. Administrators don’t care, or rather they don’t in our South Georgia sysem. Our school board only cares about one thing-winning football state championships. The entire starting backfield of Thomas County Centrals 1990 State Championship team couldn’t complete an application for the local Walmart. They are walking the streets peddling drugs now. School Board and Administration could care less if 9 students qualified for the nationals in Drama-Debate, or students made perfect score on SAT. Our Super is a joke, he is more worried about new sod for the football field than computers in class rooms. The school board consist of “Yes” members, no one goes against him. We do now have a young lady on board who has children in the school (all other board members children have graduated) and I think she is going to be a thorn in his side. She disagreed last meeting and it through the old board members into a mental lapse, 4 of them had to abstain from voting on an item. Our Athletic Director runs (or ruins) our school system. We are loosing good qualified, caring, concerned teaches every month. They say the combat pay they receive is not worth the battle.

By scuse me

December 29, 2005 12:32 PM | Link to this

Not always dear,

My child has faced issues because of my activisim within the school system. All it took to correct the problem though was setting down and explaining to the teacher that I supported them even if I had issues with the system. No more problems!

By scuse me

December 29, 2005 12:34 PM | Link to this

“Our Super is a joke”

Wanna trade for 1 Alvin Wilbanks? We’ll throw in a couple of assistants to sweeten the pot.

By scuse me

December 29, 2005 12:37 PM | Link to this

ASKING wasn’t part of my plan, Dick.

By Julie Painter

December 29, 2005 12:38 PM | Link to this

Someone from the governor’s office should drop in at the CEP school on Perry Blvd. The children there routinely punch, kick, curse, bite and sexually touch teachers and administrators. The poor teachers have their personal property stolen by students and the children run around at will, yelling and screaming.

It is total mayhem and nothing can be done about it because of the laws our politions have passed — supposedly to benefit the children.

I do not blame the teacher for quiting and in fact, I often tell the resourse officers (a/k/a/ Police officers in the schools) that I wouldn’t have their jobs for anything in the world. Way to go, teacher.

By luvs2teach

December 29, 2005 12:42 PM | Link to this

“You cannot ask those who don’t want to learn to leave the system, money is tied to federal governmental assistance based on daily average attendance.”

OK, kids, there is something community members should be trying to change! Write to your Congressman - write to your Senator! I don’t want $XX.XX for your child if your child doesn’t want to be here, and will cause problems to boot!

By Dick

December 29, 2005 12:42 PM | Link to this

During the reign of Roy Barnes, he started a system were one could get certified to teach. Does anyone have any idea how many of those who went into teaching has remained teaching? I was wondering how this program went Thanks

By scuse me

December 29, 2005 12:43 PM | Link to this

Dick, If you’re going to be difficult we’ll make a final offer of 2 BOE members, 1 Alvin Wilbanks and 2 assistants of your choice for your Super.

By Carrie

December 29, 2005 12:46 PM | Link to this

I stand by my original statement that no one is out to get your child. Defend it however you want to, but those teachers do not have time to make up stuff about “innocent” children. My sister deals with this stuff daily and it is usually the “activists” who are the most difficult to deal with because they never LISTEN. Ask your kid in 10 years what really happened and you will get a completely different story than what they say now and your face will be red.

By scuse me

December 29, 2005 12:47 PM | Link to this

Nope but yours might be.

The teacher admitted and we moved on.

By luvs2teach

December 29, 2005 12:49 PM | Link to this

Dick - I don’t have specific numbers, but I know that many of the teachers didn’t make it. Provisionally certified teachers have one of the highest attrition rates of all. The teacher (chemist who wanted to change the world) I wrote about on the “Teacher Pay” blog lasted three weeks. I know of another math teacher who lasted two years.

I did it on the provisional route, but not through the Governor’s program (now called GATAPP, I believe - info at www.gapsc.com ). I was lucky though, in that I had subbed and had done a lot of volunteering in the schools when my children were small. I was also a Girl Scout leader. My expectations were much more realistic - even so, I’m still surprised at something on a daily basis.

By Carrie

December 29, 2005 12:50 PM | Link to this

Nope, mine won’t be red at all - I know my kids might misbehave because that is part of being a child. However, I can accept that and discipline my children to keep it from becoming a problem. And the teacher just got sick of listening to you so she agreed and cannot wait for your kid to move on next year. Sheesh - the most vocal person about putting kids in work camps cannot admit their child might have misbehaved. This, alone, explains the state of education today.

By SET

December 29, 2005 12:51 PM | Link to this

An interesting article. On several points..

Why is this teacher crying or sobbing or whatever when she resigns from a despicable work environment? It’s wrong to stay in a degrading job and it’s wrong compromise your mental or physical health for “a job”.

I’ve got news for you teachers… you are working at a job.

You are not missionaries or crusaders. There are religious schools available for that which don’t pay as well but may provide other compensation.

If the workers (teachers) can’t regulate their values and emotions any better than this you are going to wind up physical wrecks. Decide what you require for yourself in life and then look at what you are doing with your career. In America in the 21st century you should expect to change employeers several times in your career.

You should make it clear in writing and through your unions and your interactions with management (administration) up to the school board level that you will resign (with short notice) and move on when physical conditions reach your limits. That includes filthy bathrooms, dangerously out of control students and their birth mothers and babies’ daddies, and inadequately secured parking to mention a few conditions.

Women who would shack up with a man - or worse, date a married man - were said to be “throwing their lives away” because they would accept whatever crumbs fell from the table while their “partner” kept all his options open. Working in an unsafe ghetto school for uncaring and incompetent administrators is the same sort of thing and you normally don’t see males doing it because they know better.

There are other careers available in this country including teaching at private schools. As for the “children” - they are not your children and not your problem. Staying in a terrible situation enables that situation to persist. In the long run by staying you ratify the bad conditions complained of. It’s too bad the teacher’s unions aren’t willing and able to fight off bad and unsafe working conditions. Maybe they are busy with promoting Marxism?

There is a very short reach from verbally attacking a teacher and physically attacking a teacher. When the students honestly feel like they can openly insult and defy teaching staff at any school it’s time to put administration on written notice and seek employment elsewhere.

By scuse me

December 29, 2005 12:56 PM | Link to this

No Sweetheart, I never said my child was perfect. Corrections and discipline in support of his teachers has happened in our home. What I did say was not always. You had made a general statement that I felt needed correcting. Perhaps he just fell into that .00001%.

I just admitted my child isn’t perfect are you now willing to admit that even teachers are human?

By Carrie

December 29, 2005 01:01 PM | Link to this

I just find it very interesting that if any child gets into trouble they should be sent on a death march EXCEPT if it is your child then they couldn’t possibly have done it. What else would the teacher have to worry about….low test scores, low pay, personal problems…..NO! they are going sit up late at night thinking of ways to get little junior. Sorry, I don’t buy it and you shouldn’t either.

Also, the wording that you use (sweetheart and dear) prove that you know you are wrong so you use that terminology to try to put me in my place. I’m perfectly okay with it though because I am quite dear and a sweetheart so thanks for noticing.

By scuse me

December 29, 2005 01:03 PM | Link to this

Not really—you read way more into my use of language.

Those are endearing terms of respect to me, sorry if you’re offended.

By Carrie

December 29, 2005 01:06 PM | Link to this

No they aren’t terms of respect and you don’t think that either.

By scuse me

December 29, 2005 01:09 PM | Link to this

Indeed I do!

And please point out where I said the issues we faced at school were discipline issues.

By Leia

December 29, 2005 01:12 PM | Link to this

Carrie -

I’ve been reading your posts and I agree with you 100%. I haven’t posted until now, because I thought you were doing quite well!

I’m glad that you addressed “scuse me’s” use of sweetheart to you. You know that he meant that in a condescending way and did not mean it affectionately. That is one way that some people try to fight back when they are losing - name-calling!

You go, Carrie!

By luvs2teach

December 29, 2005 01:17 PM | Link to this

Interesting quote:

“I have never seen a school that’s great for kids but awful for teachers.”

Spoken by Stanford Education Prof. Henry Levin.

Ain’t it the truth?

By scuse me

December 29, 2005 01:19 PM | Link to this

Are either of you ladies (is that word ok?) working? I could use a good clairvoyant

By Carrie

December 29, 2005 01:24 PM | Link to this

You don’t have to be clairvoyant to know when someone is trying to bully you into agreeing with them.

By luvs2teach

December 29, 2005 01:25 PM | Link to this

SET - I think the crying was a reflection of the fact that the woman felt SHE failed, when she should be furious because it was really the system that failed HER.

It IS a job and I think most of us will leave when faced with situations like that - but, like so many people in the “real world” many of us stay far longer than we might like at bad jobs.

Pick up an issue of Working Mother Magazine, Cosmo, Self, etc, and you most likely find at least one article about “The boss from from H3LL” or “Is it time to leave?” or some other workplace advice (maybe it’s just a woman thing - I don’t see the same type of articles in Esquire, LOL).

Anyway, I posted this before, but it bears repeating: a friend of mine who is a social worker said that she loves the work, although she sometimes hates the job. Maybe it’s just a change of location and not profession that’s needed.

By scuse me

December 29, 2005 01:29 PM | Link to this

Nope. Wrong again.

I’ve been reading your posts on several blogs and you apeeared to be an honest caring young lady. If that ain’t a sweetheart, I don’t know what is.

But then I could be wrong.

By teach

December 29, 2005 01:29 PM | Link to this

SET, There aren’t any unions in Georgia. If there were, maybe we wouldn’t have so many teachers abused by administrators, parents, and students.

By Leia

December 29, 2005 01:34 PM | Link to this

Carrie -

As a parent, I have received about 2 or 3 “bad” reports about my child’s behavior. They were all because of talking, and, I never questioned the teacher because that is the one thing he does everywhere - talk all of the time! He gets consequences and of course promises not to do it again! Thankfully, he is a bit older now and it is not an issue. I have never questioned the teacher and have been very vocal about supporting the teacher.

As a teacher, it amazes me that parents think that I have all of this extra time and lack of purpose in my life where I would just choose to lie about and “pick on” their child! I have often asked parents if they actually thought that I chose to pick on their child for no reason. I explain to them that for me to actually get to the point where we would have to have a conference about the student - I have already exhausted all possible “in-house” solutions. I would try to avoid a parent confrontation at all costs!

It is very unfortunate that these students (high school students) are allowed to remain in the classroom while being disruptive and causing the teacher to spend the bulk of the class period on him, and not the students who are actually trying to learn.

By Fed Up

December 29, 2005 01:42 PM | Link to this

Dick, although we live a couple hundred miles apart, we are going through the same thing.

We too have the football mentality. A few years ago, we built a new high school. They ran short of money and decided not to build a new football stadium - saying that we could still use the one at the old school. People started writing letters to the editor, calling board members, and at the next board meeting, it was standing room only. The board backed down and “miraculously” found the money to build a new stadium. As far as the old school, it was supposed to have been remodeled and the middle school move into it. However, they let it sit empty for over a year and it now no longer meets state requirements. Now, we are going to have to build a new middle school at a cost of some $18 million. They could have remodeled the old school if they hadn’t let it sit empty.

As far as board members, we had a few board members who would speak their mind. However, they wound up losing SACS accredidation and now we have a board full of puppy dogs (except for one). Bottom line, even if you have a board that tries to look out for the taxpayer, they will find a way to shut them up.

But hey, the football team made the playoffs so everything is OK…… right?

By Carrie

December 29, 2005 01:44 PM | Link to this

Leia- Every time my sister (middle school teacher) tells me these stories I am more and more shocked. Trust me when I tell everyone that she does not have time to pick on anyone’s child. She is a great teacher (voted favorite teacher every year), but she is hard on the kids so there is always some parent in her face about something. She doesn’t deserve this at all and many of those kids are lucky they had her for a teacher. She still has students come back after they graduate and thank her. She teaches in an inner city school and the politics, parents, fights and “bad” students have taken their toll on her so she is leaving teaching at the end of this year.

By Leia

December 29, 2005 01:50 PM | Link to this

Carrie - that’s too bad about your sister-in-law. I could (and have!) made twice my salary - but, I love teaching. I just hate all of the other stuff that comes with it (parents, paperwork, blah, blah, blah).

What I find funny is that I have several students who have absolutely hated me while they were my students, but, have gone to college and come back and thanked me for everything that I’ve done to make them good note-takers and life-long students. That’s why I stay!

By Carrie

December 29, 2005 01:53 PM | Link to this

It’s always the ones that are the hardest on you that make the biggest impact in the long run. Meeting someone’s high expectations can be the confidence booster that most of us need. That is even true after college and in work. I still get a rush when I exceed my boss’ high standards.

By Dick

December 29, 2005 01:53 PM | Link to this

Here is my final offer. I will give you our Super, athletic director, three of our “yes” board members, 7 helmets, 6 footballs, our one computer (broken, has 486 mz processor) and curriculum director and to help build up the mentality of the deal I will throw in 4 bus drivers, 3 teachers, and 2 maintenance employees for your super. Do we have a deal

By scuse me

December 29, 2005 01:53 PM | Link to this

Ladies.ladies,ladies

With all due respect, it amazes me when people think teachers aren’t human and don’t make mistakes or pass judgement based on rumors.

They can and do because they are human. It is thinking like this though that really damages the profession. Because everyone starts believing the same. My dealings with teachers that have errored has been positive and they’ve earned my respect, it wasn’t given just because they were teachers. It was earned by their actions.

If I’m a bad guy for accepting teachers, even those with a fault or two, for who they are, then I guess I’m just a bad guy.

Y’all are way to defensive.

By scuse me

December 29, 2005 01:56 PM | Link to this

Dick, you drive a hard deal, but if we can get rid of Mr. Wilbanks you gotta dael.

By Carrie

December 29, 2005 01:58 PM | Link to this

Puh-leeze

By Dick

December 29, 2005 02:00 PM | Link to this

Scuse me ya’ll are way too defensive. When you are continously blamed by our federal government, local elected officials, local school boards, state elected officials, local school super, and adminstration as always being wrong, you can’t help but be offended. My wife has 18 years experience teaching 9th grade remeial math to statistics and wasn’t able to get a job at local high school when we moved because of WHY—she wasn’t a coach. She is now certified and teaching 5th grade. But don’t worry, our math dept at local high school is being ran by coaches, and most high school graduates are having to take remedial math first year of college. You tell me what is more important athletics or academics. Teachers cannot help but be defensive. If your school board and super is your offensive line, you had better be able to stiff arm

By Jason

December 29, 2005 02:04 PM | Link to this

I think we should “export” disruptive students and their lazy, illiterate, unwedded parents to Mexico to help shrink our trade deficit—and return the favor.

By Carrie

December 29, 2005 02:07 PM | Link to this

You know, some disruptive students are middle/upper class and white.

By Dick

December 29, 2005 02:11 PM | Link to this

Carrie; I don’t think anyone has stated “none” of the students were middle/high class and whtie. I didn’t see where profiling was being done, I may have missed it, but haven’t seen it today. My wife will tell you a lot of her problem students fit middle/upper class and white-Why-because they are use to getting their way at home, thus they expect same whether it be school, church, sports, clubs, etc. Don’t pull the race card please.

By scuse me

December 29, 2005 02:11 PM | Link to this

Dick, being defensive is one thing. Being perfect is another.

Me, Hell yes I make mistakes, but I’m generally the first one to admit it. The same can be said for the 50% of my family members that are educators.

My problem lies with the “perfect” teachers, and you know a few of them if your wife teaches.

By Dick

December 29, 2005 02:13 PM | Link to this

Scuse me. there is no way my wife is perfect, there is only room for one perfect person in a marriage and she will tell you that I fit that bill. I will tell you I have the last words in any of our conversations, “yes dear”.

By Carrie

December 29, 2005 02:13 PM | Link to this

Thanks, but I can see through veiled racists remarks even if you can’t.

By Leia

December 29, 2005 02:13 PM | Link to this

Dick - read Jason’s comment. He is definitely profiling. Carrie was not playing any race card.

By scuse me

December 29, 2005 02:15 PM | Link to this

clairvoyant!!!

By scuse me

December 29, 2005 02:17 PM | Link to this

LOL, Dick you can’t use the Dear word here, people become offended.

By Carrie

December 29, 2005 02:19 PM | Link to this

I don’t think his wife(who I assume he knows intimately) would be offended by his use of dear. However, you don’t know me at all and your use of it was NOT affectionate.

By scuse me

December 29, 2005 02:20 PM | Link to this

clairvoyant

By Carrie

December 29, 2005 02:23 PM | Link to this

Nope, just years of dealing with men who can only feel good about themselves if they were belittling other people.

By scuse me

December 29, 2005 02:26 PM | Link to this

sactly where’d I do that?

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

December 29, 2005 02:26 PM | Link to this

Highschool is a tough environment for everyone, teachers and other students included. We all know how cruel highschool students can act. I’m over thirty and can remember students acting out and making teachers cry, quit and transfer out of the system. I never understood why and I was in what is consider a good school system. The students always knew which teachers this attitude would work best with, they did not try it with the hardcore teachers.

Everyone will try to test “you”, including children and especially teenagers. They want to see how far they can push you, we see it at home with our own children. With some, you can give them the “Look” and the test will end at that. With others, you will have to back up that look - given you will need outside support. In this teachers case, her principal and the parents. I read her comments about what the students said to her. They were wrong to say the things that were said, but it actually falls under free speech. I had to learn in highschool, to overlook things that were said too me and about me. It goes back to “Sticks and Stones”.

I have been too the point, that I have wanted to walk out of my position. But, I was not about to give anyone that satisfaction. Sometimes you have to go toe to toe and let the chips fall where they may. Don’t hold how you feel inside and once it’s out in the open, you feel a lot better.

I believe the teacher let the students get the best of her, just like some parents.

But, if the child isn’t afraid of their parents, they more than likely will not be afraid of another adult. Some of the things the teacher listed as being comments from students, were things I would not want my parents to know came out of my mouth.

As a child, I would always consider what would happen, if my mother found out.

By scuse me

December 29, 2005 02:31 PM | Link to this

“if the child isn’t afraid of their parents, they more than likely will not be afraid of another adult.”

You did mean respect don’t you?

By Jason

December 29, 2005 02:36 PM | Link to this

“Dick - read Jason’s comment. He is definitely profiling. Carrie was not playing any race card.”

Who exactly am I “definitely profiling,” Leia?

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

December 29, 2005 02:45 PM | Link to this

Scuse me,

I do mean afraid. Afraid, out of respect. A child should respect his/her parents and others, but fear of repercussions works well for kids who do not listen.

By luvs2teach

December 29, 2005 02:47 PM | Link to this

“Everyone will try to test “youâ€?, including children and especially teenagers. They want to see how far they can push you, we see it at home with our own children. With some, you can give them the “Lookâ€? and the test will end at that. With others, you will have to back up that look - given you will need outside support. In this teachers case, her principal and the parents. I read her comments about what the students said to her. They were wrong to say the things that were said, but it actually falls under free speech. I had to learn in highschool, to overlook things that were said too me and about me. It goes back to “Sticks and Stonesâ€?.”

You’re OK with this because it falls under “free speech”? Unbelievable.

If I recall from the original post and Patti’s additional comments, those statements were a small fraction of the total picture going on. While you are correct in saying that it was, in part, the administrators and parents fault, to allay any of the students’ responsibility for their attrocious behavior to “free speech” is ludicrous.

Free speech in the “real world” is not without consequence. I’m free to go to my boss and tell him that I think he’s an SOB, but he is also free to fire me!

What have we taught these children? Being obnoxious, disrespectful individuals will let you run an adult out of her school and probably out of her profession and get you a barrel full of ignorance. Hope ignorance tastes good, because with that attitude, those children won’t last long enough in any job to earn enough to eat any real food.

Amazed, you need to read Larry Cuban’s book “Blackboards and the Bottom Line: Why Schools Can’t Be Businesses.”

By oh come on....

December 29, 2005 02:48 PM | Link to this

Enough! I don’t care if the kids are poorer than dirt of the heirs of English royalty. If they aren’t there to learn, get them the heck out of my kids’ school.

Education in my opinion is certainly a PRIVILEGE as opposed to a right as it applies to the masses. However, once you have a child in school who is on time and ready and willing to work hard and learn that child has a RIGHT to an education because they WANT to be there.

However, even if you argue that education is a RIGHT… that doesn’t mean that you should force that right on someone. You can’t force someone to take advantage of their rights. Just because we have a right to property does not mean that we force people to go buy a house … we don’t require that people pursue happiness. If they want to be miserable… we don’t require them to be happy. Similary, just because we have a right to free speech doesn’t mean that we force everyone to speak their opinion if they don’t want to…

-Same with education- “Compulsory education” is a joke. Even if education (arguably) is a right… that doesn’t mean that you force that right on some kid whose family has made it clear that they don’t want it. Rights are available to those who want them and seek them out. Even if education is a right… free babysitting (which is how many parents use public school) is not a right.

When adminsitrators and politicians allow these ridiculous freaks to sit in class acting like morons and take the teacher’s time away from my kids who are willing and able to learn… it is my kids’ “rights” that are being violated.

I know it’s not the politically correct thing…(and I don’t care) but I still think that kids should be tracked. Perhaps not solely by academic ability, but by willingness to learn. Put all the kids that don’t want to be in school together (preferably on an island) and give them a few Marines as teachers. If they don’t care about literature, math, history, etc.. have the Marine teach them a trade so that they can go out and at least get a job.

Contrary to popular belief, not everyone is cut out to have a college eduation… some just need to learn a trade and go on out there and make a dern living. I know a crane operator who makes well into six figures.

By luvs2teach

December 29, 2005 02:53 PM | Link to this

Hee hee - Oh Come on - in my surfing today I found a comment to the effect that many kids go get their college diploma and then go to trade school to get the skills to find a job!

We need some serious revamping! I think we need to have an 8th grade diploma at which point those kids could go get internship jobs - get them out and get them working. some will find their niche, and probably do very well with it. Others will find that they need to go back - HS, college, whatever, to get what they want out of education and life.

By Dick

December 29, 2005 03:00 PM | Link to this

lET ME ASK YOU HOW YOU WOULD HAVE HANDLED THIS ITEM IF I CAN. LAST YEAR THE TEACHERS IN OUR SCHOOL SYSTEM WAS TOLD BY OUR SUPER AND ALSO ADMINISTRATION DURING THE FIRST DAY OF PREPLANNING THE TEAHERS WERE EXPECTED “TO DO WHAT EVER IT TOOK TO KEEP THE PARENTS HAPPY”. DON’T THINK A CHILD, REGARDLESS OF AGE AND MATURITY, WON’T PICK UP ON THE FACT—THE FIELD IS WIDE OPEN. WE CAN DO ALL WE WANT, WHEN WE WANT, HOW WE WANT BECAUSE WE HAVE THE SUPER AND ADM IN OUR REAR POCKET. IF YOU WERE A TEACHER IN THIS SCYHOOL SYSTEM, KNOWING THIS WAS EXPECTED OF YOU, HOW WOULD YOU HAVE HANDLED.

By Carrie

December 29, 2005 03:04 PM | Link to this

Jason - you know what you said and you know what you meant. If you are going to be bold enough to make those comments than please be bold enough to back it up.

By scuse me

December 29, 2005 03:06 PM | Link to this

Yep fear works.

Please Tell me you’re not a teacher.

By scuse me

December 29, 2005 03:09 PM | Link to this

Yeah Jason,

You’re dealing with a clairvoyant there so don’t be lieing.

By Carrie

December 29, 2005 03:10 PM | Link to this

Lying - in the 2nd grade we learned that when adding ‘ing’ to any word that ended in ‘ie’ the ‘ie’ would change to ‘y’.

By Dick

December 29, 2005 03:11 PM | Link to this

Jason, sounds like to me you would make a good politician. Talking out both sides of the mouth.

By Carrie

December 29, 2005 03:11 PM | Link to this

Be careful or Jason might send you to Mexico if he deems you illiterate.

By scuse me

December 29, 2005 03:12 PM | Link to this

Dick,

I’d have gone to the rest room a lot and given them all “A’s”.

that way no problem with parents, admin. or students. Everyone happy.

By scuse me

December 29, 2005 03:13 PM | Link to this

yeah well I skipped a grade.

By Dick

December 29, 2005 03:14 PM | Link to this

scuse me, everyone is happy until you as an employer tries to find some one that can do a job.

By scuse me

December 29, 2005 03:19 PM | Link to this

Dick, At that point its irrelevant if the kid can read or write. He has a diploma doesn’t he? and We’ve ended social promotion. So whats the problem?

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

December 29, 2005 03:26 PM | Link to this

If I can say what they said in class on the street, it still falls under free speech. You can punish the child for talking in your class (thats a given), but punishment for saying something you don’t like is crazy to me. I don’t like the things said on this blog, but I wouldn’t punish anyone for saying it.

My boss has been called an SOB, but he laughs. You don’t fire your best workers, because they do not agree with you. If you expect everyone to agree, you are misleading yourself.

My views are based upon real life, I don’t need a book to have an opinion. I don’t consider schools to be businesses, because they don’t earn profits. But, schools could take pointers from the business world. For example, sometimes you must analyze the market you are dealing with and understand the various trends taking place in your market. A school can not be run under the one size fits all method. Each school is located in a different market, with different demographics (financial, educational level and parental involvement). The school has to adjust to that specific market.

You don’t send 20,000 convertibles to North Dakota in November.

By Carrie

December 29, 2005 03:33 PM | Link to this

“You need some. Your man needs to take hold of you ‘cause you need some bad. Don’t you have any kind of life?�

“You a ho…..”

If these comments were made in any office than the person would be fired. This creates a hostile work environment and the person causing it would be removed because it IS illegal and the company would face a lawsuit.

By scuse me

December 29, 2005 03:36 PM | Link to this

It keeps comming back to “fire the student”.

By Carrie

December 29, 2005 03:37 PM | Link to this

Also, the term ‘ho’ is slang for prostitute and if you do call someone a ‘ho’ who does not, in fact, receive money or goods for sex than you can be sued for defamation of character.

By Dick

December 29, 2005 03:38 PM | Link to this

Amazed, don’t tell us one shoe doesn’t fit all, tell the elected officials in Washington and Atlanta. I have always said what works in Atlanta won’t work in Cairo, Ga and visa-versa. However, I think it would be fair to say the major problem in our school system today, regardless as to its locality, is the lack of parental/guardian involvement.

By Jason

December 29, 2005 03:42 PM | Link to this

“If you are going to be bold enough to make those comments than please be bold enough to back it up.”

Carrie, I think you mean “then,” not “than.” Or were you being ironical?

By Carrie

December 29, 2005 03:45 PM | Link to this

WOW, Jason - that was a great backup for your argument. I bet you were on the debate team in high school. Don’t be bashful…you were the star of the debate team, weren’t you?

By Jason

December 29, 2005 03:57 PM | Link to this

“WOW, Jason - that was a great backup for your argument.”

a) What argument?

b) You pointed out scuse me’s error, so I thought I’d point out yours.

c) I love you.

By luvs2teach

December 29, 2005 04:09 PM | Link to this

Amazed, life experiences or not, you should read the book before you make statements like “schools could take pointers from the business world.” Fact of the matter is that we have. It’s not working. The premise of the book is “Why have industry-founded reforms been so influential in establishing new goals and modifying curricula, school organization and governance, yet they have had only a minor impact on the effectiveness of teaching and the level of student achievement?” One statement that Cuban makes is “one size fits all” was implemented as a result of business methods being tried in the workplace.

“Free Speech” was not designed to be the freedom to say whatever you want, where ever you, to whomever you want. It was a response to the lack of freedom the press and public had in criticizing King George prior to the American Revolution. You still can’t libel, slander, sexually harass, or shout “fire” in a crowded movie house and call it “free speech.”

From Cornell University’s Law site:

“The Supreme Court has also recognized that the government may prohibit some speech that may cause a breach of the peace or cause violence.”

I think much of the “free speech” in this case sould be coverd under that clause. If I were a tax-paying member of that community, I would be pretty irate that someone else so-called right had treaded on my child’s opportunity for a decent education.

I’m glad your boss has a great sense of humor, but most people don’t like to be called names. I don’t expect everyone to agree with me, but if I were the boss, I would expect my employees to respect my position. Part of the respect would include proper tone and words - I wouldn’t expect my employees to call me names and expect to keep their jobs! A note to Jason - some of my BEST students are my ESOL kids, in a large part because they come from cultures that still respect adults and authority. Please don’t send them back!

From KMK Management - Top Ten Reasons People Get Fired:

Yes, Scuse Me, darlin’ (LOL) I am for firing the students at this particular institution. And I’m surprised, Amazed, that with all your real-world experience, that would could even begin to condone this. Where are these kids going with this attitude? NOWHERE!!!!

By scuse me

December 29, 2005 04:12 PM | Link to this

Damn Jason, Now you went and done it.

I love you could be considered Sexual Harassment. Hope you’re prepared for the wrath of these lovely ladies.

By luvs2teach

December 29, 2005 04:14 PM | Link to this

Please amend the following typos:

“wherever you want”

“someone else’s so-called right”

“construed”

“that you would even”

Sorry!

By scuse me

December 29, 2005 04:16 PM | Link to this

Be careful luvs2teach, I’ve been corrected on my ways here today. ;)

Ok sweetie?

By luvs2teach

December 29, 2005 04:17 PM | Link to this

Fair enough, honeybun!

By scuse me

December 29, 2005 04:19 PM | Link to this

We really need to be careful. Wouldn’t want to upset Sweetheart.

By luvs2teach

December 29, 2005 04:22 PM | Link to this

LOL - Scuse Me, as long as you don’t call me a “whiner” you can call me sweetie, honey, darling, whatever - it’s all in fun.

By scuse me

December 29, 2005 04:27 PM | Link to this

LOL, Don’t whine then. Awright?

By Dick

December 29, 2005 04:30 PM | Link to this

Iam confused, is this a blog about problems in schools or a soap opera.

By luvs2teach

December 29, 2005 04:30 PM | Link to this

I’ll do my best, baby!

By scuse me

December 29, 2005 04:31 PM | Link to this

Dick,

YES.

By luvs2teach

December 29, 2005 04:32 PM | Link to this

Dick - yes.

By scuse me

December 29, 2005 04:35 PM | Link to this

Dick,

I hope that cleaared up any confusion

By Carrie

December 29, 2005 04:39 PM | Link to this

Jason- a) your argument is that we should send the disruptive students and their lazy, illiterate, unwedded parents to Mexico to help shrink our trade deficit b) I did point out to scuse me that he made an error in grammar and you are right to point out mine. I assume you want to ship both of us off ASAP. He and I can share a car (or should we just walk?!) on our way to Mexico (scuse me, can we swing by Cabo before we hit the sweat shops?) c) I am not the least bit surprised that you love me - most people do….what can I say, it’s a gift!

By scuse me

December 29, 2005 04:43 PM | Link to this

I don’t know if we could ride together.

I might slip up and call you sweetheart. Fraid I’d end up walkin after a slip like that. (grin)

By Dick

December 29, 2005 04:49 PM | Link to this

Thanks for clearing this up for me. Reminds me of a redhead that went to the doctor and told him, Doctor I don’t know what is wrong with me, every part of my body I touch, it hurts. The doc said. “Ms. Jones, that is not possible, and she replied, o yea it is just watch. Sure nought Doc watched her touch her left wrist and she yelled, she then touch her left knee cap and screamed, she then reached down and touch her foot and almost passed out with pain. The doctor stood still and thought for a second, and while he was thinking she stated, “see,I told you so”. He questioned her, you aren’t really a red head are you, she hung her head and shamefully said, no, my hair is dyed, I am a blonde. He replied I thought so, your finger is broken. Takes all kinds in this old world, hope all of you have a very happy and prosperous New Year and hope all had a very Merry Christmas.

By Jake

December 29, 2005 04:49 PM | Link to this

Carrie - The language choices indicate her students were black or white middle class kids emulating black culture. You’re way to quick to start drying racist, since Mexican is a nationality and latino an ethicity, and none of the comments implied genetic superiority. Scuse you - I think you meant psychic, not clairyoyant. All - If the teachers, at least most of you, primarily blame the parents and administrators, and the administrators blame the teaches and the parents, and the parents blame the teachers and the administrators, who are the kids supposed to blame?

By Carrie

December 29, 2005 04:49 PM | Link to this

Okay, but you’ll miss a good time in Cabo…..

By Jake

December 29, 2005 04:54 PM | Link to this

Since we’re being picky that would be crying not drying and ‘ethnicity’. Personally I don’t worry about spelling or grammar, it’s the content and logic behind them that disturb me.

By Carrie

December 29, 2005 04:55 PM | Link to this

Jake-I think we will have to agree to disagree. I stand by my original statement….typically, someone who is illiterate would not be characterized as middle to upper class. I completely understood what I read and I completely understood what was meant.

By Leia

December 29, 2005 04:56 PM | Link to this

It is just a shame that we are losing excellent teachers because this has become such a litigious society. My principal reacts to the threat of a lawsuit the way security reacts to hearing “bomb” in an airport!

The least little thing that happens, and parents threaten to sue. Meanwhile, the students are witnessing this and realizing that they can get away with doing anything short of murder, and their parents will take their side and threaten to sue the school system. And, if they mention “lawsuit” to my principal - they can get whatever they want!

By luvs2teach

December 29, 2005 04:56 PM | Link to this

Jake - at that age, they need to blame themselves for being disrespectful jerks. By HS, they should know better.

Anyway, you know how it goes:

Colleges blame the high schools; high schools blame the middle schools; middle schools blame elementary; elementary schools blame the mother and the mother says, “Hey, they got like that from my husband’s side of the family!”

Have a great day, sweeties!

By Carrie

December 29, 2005 04:56 PM | Link to this

Personally I don’t worry about spelling or grammar

Hmmm - shocking that we have problems with our education system

By scuse me

December 29, 2005 04:57 PM | Link to this

Nope meant clairvoyant

clairvoyant-Adj.

clairvoyant; unusually perceptive : DISCERNING

Discern: to detect with senses other than vision

By scuse me

December 29, 2005 05:01 PM | Link to this

I don’t mind as long as you promise I won’t have to walk.

By David

December 30, 2005 10:58 AM | Link to this

From my experience I have found that NEW young teachers are not prepared for the reality of what the classroom “discipline” is like in the public schools of Georgia. Teachers are well prepared in their academic field but a large number of students entering the class are not prepared socially or academically for the class. The State of Georgia has lost many potenially good teachers as a result of student behavior, all the teacher wanted to do was “teach”.

By luvs2teach

December 30, 2005 11:45 AM | Link to this

I reread the entire original post last night, and the teacher in question was not a new teacher - she was an administrator who wanted to get back to the classroom for experience. From what she said, she did all the right things but to no avail. She also had family and personal medical problems that complicated the situation.

Most people who become teachers are people who enjoy kids AND enjoy school. When new, we often have the delusion or make the mistake that our students will all be like us and actually care about their learning. We learn quickly that that is just not the case.

Also students today ARE different. Not only has American culture changed, but the wide exposure to a variety of media may actually be changing how students think and process information - how scary is that?

Another book worth looking into (or at least google search and read some of her articles): Why Children Don’t Think by Jane Healy. It will really make you rethink Baby Einstein and all the electronic educational games you may have your children do.

By Anonymous Teacher

December 30, 2005 11:55 AM | Link to this

Personally, I am a bit overwhelmed that my essay which Patti posted back in May 2005, elicited this much discussion. For me, the essay was cathartic; I had to write it. Reading all your comments has also been a compulsive activity.

In the manner of an update, I thought I would let you all know that I have no intention of teaching at the secondary level ever again. There seems to be some speculation about how much, if any, teaching experience I have at that level in your comments. For the record, I began teaching at the high school level with the 1969-70 school year, and the last school year I taught at that level was the 1989-90 school year. Therefore, there was a 14 year gap in which I taught at the college and adult ed levels and worked in K-12 administration before returning to the high school classroom in the 2004-2005 school year.

I am currently looking for and working at part-time positions involving both fiction and non-fiction writing, grantwriting, research, adjunct instructor positions, etc. I am also beginning work on a Ph.D.

My husband and I have also taken in his 90-year-old father to live with us. We now are the caretakers of both our elderly fathers. My advice to all of you is to prepare yourselves and the older people in your lives for this eventuality because it will come to pass. Plan for it now!

As far as my decision to quit my teaching position three weeks before the end of the school year, I continue to regret that I had to make that decision. I do not feel good about it professionally, but I know I had to do it for my own well-being and that of my family. Ultimately, I believe I would not have been any more effective had I stayed on to complete the school year than the substitute teacher that my students had for those last three weeks.

By Shell

December 30, 2005 01:35 PM | Link to this

Teachers certainly do single out certain children for “special treatment”, in the negative sense. While for the most part my attitude is “What purpose would it serve for an adult to act that way toward a child?”, I’m fully aware that adults can be petty. In our junior high years my older sister was singled out for abuse and attempts at discipline for made-up infractions by a teacher who refused to believe that a student could have got to 9th grade and have no disciplinary actions on her record. The teacher’s contention was that Sis had to have done something but just hadn’t been caught, so she (the teacher) was going to make sure that the unblemished record garnered a black mark or two. That foolishness lasted until Mama went to the school and told the teacher that either the BS stopped or “…we’re gonna go ‘round and ‘round!” Teacher took Mama at her word. Years later, Sis had a tete-a-tete with her daughter’s (black) fifth grade teacher because that teacher took out her frustration at being relegated to the only “detached classroom” (trailer) on her (white) students, of which there were very few. My niece went from being acclaimed as an Honor Student at that school for the previous five years to being derided by that teacher as a troublemaker simply because she and her mother protested against the unfair treatment. Niece has been home-schooled since then, and will graduate with honors next summer.

As for the rude comments the students directed toward the teacher whose travails are the subject of this topic, and the poster who said those comments fall under their “right to free speech”, may I point out something that no one else seems able to grasp. (But first say that the post lining out the limits on “free speech” was well done.) We are talking about children making these comments. They are not yet adults and therefore have no rights of their own. What rights they have devolve from their parents. They have yet to reach their majority and are adjudged by the standards and laws of our society to lack the development necessary to take their place as adults in that society, therefore they don’t have a “right” to anything. That’s why their parents are responsible for their behavior until the reach their majority. Adulthood isn’t a matter strictly of chronological age, either. Stop talking as though they’ve earned the “right” to be treated as adults before they even reach the age to be considered one, much less earned the consideration due one.

By scuse me

December 30, 2005 03:54 PM | Link to this

Not quite true.

The United States Supreme Court in 1969 ruled against a school districtÂ’s regulation of certain student expression in Tinker v. Des Moines.

The Court stated in this case;

In our system, state-operated schools may not be enclaves of totalitarianism. School officials do not possess absolute authority over their students. Students in school as well as out of school are “persons” under our Constitution. They possess fundamental rights which the State must respect, just as they themselves must respect their obligations to the State.

Although the Court held that students enjoy constitutional rights, it imposed conditions on studentsÂ’ freedom of speech. The Court stated that a student may express himself or herself:

[I]f he does so without “materially and substantially interfer[ing] with the requirements of appropriate discipline in the operation of the school” and without colliding with the rights of others… . [C]onduct by the student, in class or out of it, which for any reason—whether it stems from time, place, or type of behavior— materially disrupts classwork or involves substantial disorder or invasion of the rights of others is, of course, not immunized by the constitutional guarantee of freedom of speech.

By luvs2teach

December 30, 2005 04:36 PM | Link to this

Shell and Scuse Me - excellent points!

Shell - you are absolutely right - they are CHILDREN! Children do not have the same rights and priveleges as adults - otherwise we’d see 10 year olds smoking, drinking, driving, and voting (OK, maybe not voting, LOL)!

Scuse ME - thanks for posting that decision - I was trying to find it yesterday, but I was in a hurry. Children’s rights in the school setting are absolutely (and rightfully, for the common good, IMHO) limited in areas such as speech and privacy (for example, being able to search a locker).

And I think you would both agree that what the students were saying probably falls under “…materially disrupts classwork or involves substantial disorder or invasion of the rights of others [those in the classroom who wanted to learn]…”

By scuse me

December 30, 2005 04:53 PM | Link to this

you’re welcome sweetie :-)