Get Schooled

By Don

December 28, 2005 09:28 AM | Link to this

First let me comment that I am a BM. A little story. Last year my youngest daughter and I were driving to visit my mom when we noticed a field of cotton. We stopped and looked over the field it was vast as far as the eye could see. We talked about how arduous a task it must have been for slaves to pick cotton from sun up to sun down. We also spoke of the current state of affairs in our community and schools. I asked my daughter what type of affect did she think it would have if you put those habitually truant and disruptive kids on that farm to pick cotton as punishment. She replied, “they would call DFACS” and that would be that.

By Angry White Boy

December 28, 2005 09:31 AM | Link to this

I assume they were eventually expelled. Moronic (17 in 9th grade?) violent delinquents belong behind bars or in boot camps, not public schools. Perhaps its time to train and arm the teachers just as we considered arming pilots. Someone must protect the innocent and law-abiding from the scum.

By Reggi

December 28, 2005 10:25 AM | Link to this

Children have a right to an education. However, those that are not there for an education should be removed and kept away from those seeking knowledge. Instead of being turned out into the streets, the alternative for the troublemakers should be a disciplined regimen (no earrings, no multi-colored hair, bizarre dress)and kept there until they reach 18 years of age.

By scuse me

December 28, 2005 10:30 AM | Link to this

NO a child doesn’t have a right to an education. That’s where most people screw up when thinking about education.

Children have the right to be offered an education. those not wishing to take advantage of the offer need to be booted out so that those that do, can.

By C.R.H.

December 28, 2005 10:50 AM | Link to this

I wish we had a “creative exchange program”. we could offer an education to some kids from a 3rd world country and in ezchange we could send some of our kids that just want to get out and “make that money”. They could make clothes in some southeast Asian sweatshop for $1.50 a day. How about making bricks from clay in South America for under $1 a day. These would be valuable learning experiences and these disrespectful slackers could learn about how it is done in other places!

By scuse me

December 28, 2005 11:27 AM | Link to this

Now there’s an education reform policy we could support.

By Amy

December 28, 2005 12:39 PM | Link to this

Here, Here, CRH! I love that idea! The new alternative school, a plane trip to a 3rd world country!

By Lee

December 28, 2005 12:59 PM | Link to this

Scuse me; I would take it one step further. Many years ago, it was considered a privilege to attend school. Students were considered “guests” in the school house and if they behaved inappropriately, were kicked out.

During the era of forced integration, we began hearing the term of a right to an education.

Nowadays, I would term education a mandatory entitlement. Entitlement in that schools must take everyone - even children in this country illegally. Mandatory in that we are required by law to either send our kids to public school, private school, or in a bonafide home school program. If you don’t, then some guy wearing a gun and badge will be knocking on your door and take your children from you.

By scuse me

December 28, 2005 01:07 PM | Link to this

Wasn’t that long ago!

Does anyone else remember the term “reform school”? Schools today are all charged with doing the job that these institutions were once charged with.

By Shell

December 28, 2005 01:49 PM | Link to this

A comment and a question for Don: While I agree with your suggestion and that it would certainly get the attention of the delinquents, I must point out that black slaves were not the only ones who picked cotton. Do you have direct knowledge that any of your ancestors picked cotton? I do. My grandmother did it when she was a girl and a young woman. My father picked cotton as a boy. Their parents, grandparents, and so on, did too. They did it because it was the only work available. They were dirt-poor sharecropping white people. Lots of people planted and harvested to live, and still do. Black, white, brown, yellow, and red, all did it to get by. They did it before, during, and after the days of slavery in America. Think about all the others, too, the next time you see a field of cotton, not just the black ones.

By scuse me

December 28, 2005 01:58 PM | Link to this

Shell,

Were they forced to do it? Were they bought sold and traded as a commodity? Were the beaten and raped?

Or did they have the free will do choose?

Sounded to me like Don’s a real proud man, proud of his heritage. I think you’re out of line knocking him for sharing that heritage with his daughter.

By Carrie

December 28, 2005 02:00 PM | Link to this

I don’t think Don’s point had anything to do with who picked cotton (slaves or non-slaves). I think his point was that if you tried to make children today do any work like that they would call DFACS and it would be considered child abuse. My parent’s and aunts and uncles picked a lot of cotton and they still talk about how much it hurt their hands etc. I’m glad I never had to do it…..then again, I never had to be disciplined in school.

By Carrie

December 28, 2005 02:07 PM | Link to this

I think that the schools should use the three strike rule. If a student is suspended 3 times in their entire academic career then they should be permanently removed from the public school system and the parents should be legally responsible for finding and paying for alternate education. The school administration and teachers should not have to put up with these disiplinary issues - it is not part of their job description. It is, however, the parents responsibility so the alternate schools should be their problem, too.

By scuse me

December 28, 2005 02:17 PM | Link to this

Here’s the problem with the 3 strike proposal.

Something like 10% of the students create 80% of the problems in school.

Guess what group of kids they come from.

If you guessed Special ed. you’re right. To much pressure exists for inclusion to allow the schools to rid themselves of the trouble makers.

By Carrie

December 28, 2005 02:32 PM | Link to this

Well, it was just a thought. I think special ed must be different now then when I was in school because I know the special ed kids didn’t cause any of our problems. Maybe the term special ed is being used a little too liberally?

By RC

December 28, 2005 02:35 PM | Link to this

I have a plan for dealing with the miscreants that we are stuck with in public schools. It might cost some money, but it could be worth it. I think we should take from parents the kids that are failing due to no effort, kids that are disrupting class, and the others whose parents have abdicated their responsibilities to parent. They should be placed in work/boot camps in which they have to earn everything. Start off with them cleaning the roadsides, picking up trash in parking lots, fixing public and private structures that have been vandalized and any other manual labor that needs to be done to improve the condition of our cities and counties. After about six weeks give kids that are ready to learn an hour of education: reading or math. Then let them know that the better grades you make, the more classes you can take and the less labor you do. Then, until they are eighteen, they are either doing the community improvements that need to be done or they are in school obtaining a high school degree or remediating so they can get a degree. Yes, I know there are some rights that will have to be abridged, but these kids are headed to prison if something isn’t done. How many rights are abridged there?

By scuse me

December 28, 2005 02:36 PM | Link to this

Perhaps. Perhaps Spec, Ed. is just being used as a dumping ground for the kids that don’t WANT to learn.

I don’t know. Just know the statistics. Maybe we need to look closely at how kids are being determined to have needs. Maybe we need look at how much money schools are collecting for spec. ed. from the state and fed.

By scuse me

December 28, 2005 02:40 PM | Link to this

Yo RC,

I like it. that is one sure way to assure AYP and improve test scores. Maybe we could send them to work on Bush’s ranch! Whatta think?

By RC

December 28, 2005 03:03 PM | Link to this

Nah, I was thinking it would be more appropriate for the little dears to clean up the messes they and their parents make right in their own community. Imagine having to scrub, repair, and repaint the walls, fences, train cars, and other things that you’ve ruined with your gang graffiti. Might not be quite so much fun throwing a bag of fast food trash out the window at the traffic light if you spend eight to ten hours a day picking up other people’s trash. Besides, if we sent these kids to work on Bush’s ranch, what would he do with all those poor unfortunates that “came to do the work that Americans refuse to do?” Hmm. Then we could tighten our borders.

By Carrie

December 28, 2005 03:08 PM | Link to this

Maybe one of the teachers can answer this question - what is the criteria for a child to be considered special ed? I am only asking because when I was in school (graduated in 1992) the special ed kids were not the trouble makers and I am a little confused by what the current definition of special ed means.

Thanks for any insight.

By Dr. Craig Spinks

December 28, 2005 03:40 PM | Link to this

First, the battered Clayton County teacher should have sworn out arrest warrants against the attackers.

Second, the teacher should have demanded that his/her principal report this crime as required by Georgia law(Code Section 20-2-1184).

Third, the teacher should have contacted any teacher organzations to which s/he belonged, reported the attack, and sought their support in filing a civil suit agains the parents/guardians of the student-attackers.

Fourth, were said organization(s) reluctant about aiding in the filing of a civil suit against the parents/gueardians of the miscreants, the battered teacher should have sought legal representation on his/her own.

Fifth, were there other episodes of teacher battery in the school(or in other schools in the system), had the school system failed to take concerted action to prevent other episodes, or had the system failed to report such episodes as required by GA law, the teacher should consult an attorney about filing suit v. the Clayton County BOE on the grounds that the CCBOE was not acting in good faith to provide a safe working environment for its teachers.

And, sixth, the attacked teacher should have reported this crime to every major print(not just the AJC) and electronic media outlet in the metro Atlanta area as well as the BOE member representing his/her district, his/her state representative and his/her state senator.

Attacks such as the this one in Clayton County will continue throughout our state so long as Peach State teachers continue to cower in fear for their jobs.

Not a pretty picture of our state’s teachers or Georgia’s future!

By RC

December 28, 2005 03:45 PM | Link to this

It depends on the area of special education. For learning disabilities, it takes something like a 20 point discrepency between the child’s IQ and their achievement test scores. For behavior disorders, a series of behavior inventories have to be taken, scored, and indicate a behavior disorder. For Other Health Impaired, what ADHD and ADD fit under, a doctor’s diagnosis and classroom evidence have to prove that the child’s learning is being impacted by the medical condition. One of the problems that arises from special education diagnoses and discipline is that federal law prohibits you from suspending a child whose misbehavior is a result of their “behavior disorder or medical impairment”. So a kid who has ODD (oppositional, defiant disorder) can’t be suspended because he has refused to respond to a request, command, directive, assignment. The administration is limited to the number of days a special ed child can be suspended in a year. Since discipline is one of the things that count on your AYP score, you have to be very careful about how many suspensions you give out. You are considered a failing school if you have a high number of suspensions. So, you turn a blind eye to some behaviors for fear that you will be labeled a failing school.

By danielle

December 28, 2005 04:04 PM | Link to this

I am a special ed high school teacher. I work with Learning Disabled, ADHD, and Behavior Problems. Inclusion is hard on the regular ed. kids and teachers because of the lack of training, but it’s due to “No Child Left Behind”. (HAHAHA…terrible law) Anyway, expecting all kids to have parents who care and teach values is not the answere. Why else would we have 17 yrs. old in 9th grade? I have 18 years old in 10th! Law says kids can be in school until age 21! What I say, is, if they don’t stay in “regular” school, then they go to trade or alternative school, live GIVE Center in Gwinnett. There are no choices for students. They have rules for everything. LAst chance. They blow it, that’s it…. They learn very quickly they are the students who HAVE to listen to authority whether they like it or not, or they can go elsewhere. Society isn’t allowing teachers enough decision making input anymore. Special ed? I love it and the kids. It’s just so hard to stay in the rooms because of all the expectations and politics

By Laf

December 28, 2005 04:08 PM | Link to this

the trouble makers in a school. Many Special Educations students behavior is excellent. The criteria for special educcation services depends on the type of disability under consideration. The key criteria is does the disability interfere with learning. If the disability doesn’t interfere with learning the student will not receive special education services. Some undesirable behavior is a result of a disability and these students should receive special educations services. Some students have undesirable behavior that is not caused
by a disability. They students will not qualify for special education services. An education alternative is needed for the students who are not special education
but causes problems in school. The special education teachers can take care of the special education students.

By Carrie

December 28, 2005 04:09 PM | Link to this

I’m just at a loss for words. It seems like any child that exhibits poor social skills and behavior has to be excused because they have one disorder or another. If a child cannot be held accountable to an authority figure then they should be under psychiatric care. We don’t let serial killers just run free because they have a disorder so we can’t hold them to society’s standards and it’s really not their fault. I am utterly shocked that we have managed to take a really good thing (bringing true special ed kids into the mainstream) and turned it into a way to excuse behavioral problems.
Publix hires learning disabled teens to work in their stores and they are very polite and hard working. I love going in there for that reason. Just because little Johnny can’t sit still for 10 minutes or keep his temper in check does not make him special ed, it just makes him annoying.

By SET

December 28, 2005 04:10 PM | Link to this

Is anyone going to suggest that the principal of the school involved be summarily replaced?

When somebody’s operation in a rational business produces a scandal that embarrasses the organization the reaction is swift. The management is replaced and sometimes the secretaries also for being there. This is called “accountability”.

The replacement principal can deal with whatever the problems are. The incumbent had her chance.

I was once a sub and to a point I want to support teachers. True I believe that most of them should quit or transfer out of these bad government schools to better places. Stop trying to “save” the kids, save yourselves. No workers - and that’s what teachers are - should have to work in a dangerous environment. If the administration can’t provide a stable and sane workplace the workers should move on.

Why administration can’t do this is not the questions. The teachers should vote with their feet.

When I was a sub I limited my services to good schools with good administration that I approved of. The school district I worked in kept the students in line with a healthy fear of what administration would do to those who got this far out of line. They would not have been seen again at the school. Students usually perform to expectations.

By scuse me

December 28, 2005 04:13 PM | Link to this

How would one go about training regular ed students to accept the behavior of spec. ed students in the class room?

From what I’v expierenced even some of the best behaved students will act out once a teacher looses control.

So why include? I know about all the studies and the good it’s supposed to do the Spec. ed students but what about the damages done to the reular kids and even more so to the gifted ones?

By Carrie

December 28, 2005 04:20 PM | Link to this

I just have a real problem lumping the learning disabled in with the behavioral problems. When I was in high school I drove the girl down the street who was learning disabled to school everyday so I got to know the kids in her class. They were a joy to be around and the majority of the “regular kids” looked out for them so it was mutually beneficial. What happens to a student with ODD who beats up other students. If this behavior is not punishable because it is part of their disorder then does that mean that my child can be assaulted with no consequences?

By scuse me

December 28, 2005 04:23 PM | Link to this

pretty much.

By Carrie

December 28, 2005 04:27 PM | Link to this

I am just shocked. I really shouldn’t be so surprised because my sister is a middle school teacher. She has to break up a fight at least once a week (and you wouldn’t believe the parents she deals with). I have told her so many times to let the kids fight to the death instead of risking injury to herself (she is only 5’3”), but she still goes to work everyday and still breaks up the fights. I am so glad she is leaving teaching at the end of the year.

By scuse me

December 28, 2005 04:29 PM | Link to this

let’s pray she makes it.

By luvs2teach

December 29, 2005 11:57 AM | Link to this

Wow…does the expression “prosecute to the fullest extent of the law” sound good to anyone? I wonder if this was the same school that the teacher in the other blog post walked out of…and if not, then OMG, we have TWO schools like this in our metro area? How unacceptable is that?

Scuse Me - I actually agree with your comments on this post! Part of the problem with Special Ed (and I didn’t know this until I started teaching)is that so much is federally mandated (under IDEA - Individuals with Disabilities in Education Act). Our hands are tied not by our administrators, not by our school board, not by the state, but by the Federal Government. It is mind-numbingly frustrating to have to deal with all the red tape and hoops when a Special Ed child “acts out.” It’s probably one of the reasons Special Ed hs the highest teacher attrition rate of all subjects.

Sixteen and seventeen year old FRESHMAN? Maybe someone needs to call DFACS on THEIR parents? How do you let your child be that way? (And that’s the parent in me talking, not the teacher!)

By scuse me

December 29, 2005 12:20 PM | Link to this

While I agree to some extent there are some very good parts to IDEA. I think when the fed starts micro managing our schools its time we put a stop to it.

Parents of children with disabillities are a very strong force to deal with and they’re relatively well organized. Part of the problem is that no one wants to be the bad guy and say “enough”. Until we do things will not improve. Until we allow some students to be left behind I expect the situation will only get worse.