Get Schooled

By Regina

December 21, 2005 02:08 PM | Link to this

Both of my children are teachers and they are rarely home before dinner. On an hourly basis teachers are way underpaid. Unless you are involved in the teaching profession or close to someone who is, you have no idea how many hours a teacher puts in each week. They are not paid enough!

By MMM

December 21, 2005 02:10 PM | Link to this

Patti,

Why is teaching the only “profession” where we take it as a given that everyone should get the SAME raise?

You bypassed that question—but it needs to be part of any openminded discussion of appropriate pay.

By scruggs

December 21, 2005 02:26 PM | Link to this

Just as an observer and not a teacher (well, I was a former university instructor), it baffles me that so many complain about teachers having tons of vacation time and shorter work days. Just looking at high school, teachers are at school for 7-8 hours and have maybe 5 classes of students. They only get 1 hour each day for planning. I would think it is impossible to plan for 2-3 preps, handle all of the necessary paperwork, grade assignments and tests for 150 kids, and keep up to date on state standards, etc in this one hour of time. Lunch is not an option because you are probably on duty, tutoring someone, or working as a club sponsor. And, after school you may have to be available for tutoring. So when does all of this noninstructional work occur? Nights and weekends. As for summers, teachers don’t just show up on the first day of the next school year without preparation. I’m sure there’s work that needs to be done to get ready for the new year as well as professional development. So outside of the pay issue, I don’t understand why so many comment about the cush hours.

If you think GA teachers have it good with their $46k avg salary (which, incidentally I feel is too low), check out Westchester County outside of NYC. My sister-in-law has been a teacher there for 14 years and makes $105k a year. Yes, the cost of living is higher but its not as bad up where she lives. She only had to pay into the retirement system for 10 years and will collect 2/3 of her final pay every year for her pension. All as a result of them having a teacher’s union. Class sizes are small and these schools are some of the best in the nation. Taxes are through the roof but still cheaper than sending your 2 kids to private school in the end.

By Leia

December 21, 2005 02:31 PM | Link to this

MMM - you raise a very cogent point. There are several teachers at my school who get paid way more than I do, and do half of the job! The fact that they are coaches answers the question of why this is. I have several degrees, but, because my work is done in the classroom and not on the football field - it is not as “important.”

Theoretically - I should get off at 2:30, but, I am rarely home before 4:00 every day. I still have papers to grade, computer programs to assess, and plans to make. My summers are filled with staff development and workshops. I do my job because I love it, but, I am really underpaid for the amount and the quality of work that I do.

By Litmajor

December 21, 2005 02:40 PM | Link to this

I agree with scruggs, my husband was born and raised in Westchester County and many teachers there make over $100k, they also have some of the best schools in the country. However, we’ve researched and found that a home comparable to our 4/2.5 starter home with vinyl siding would sell for a stunning $800k in that area.

As an education major, I pay very close attention to teacher salaries and I’ll take Georgia’s salary anyday compared to states such as NC where the starting salary for a first year teacher is $26k, yes…$26k. Most of the county supplements range from $1000-$2000. The health insurance coverage is horrible and the cost of living is the same as we have here.

Yes, I know that I will have an enormous amount of work to do once I start teaching but my beginning salary could be much worse.

By Regina

December 21, 2005 02:45 PM | Link to this

Leia: Yes, coaches do get extra pay. However, do you realize how many EXTRA hours they put in??? The extra pay they get is not nearly enough compensation for not getting home until 6:30 - 7:00 after practice; 9:00 after a sporting event and giving up Saturdays to coach an event. My son and daughter do not get paid way more than most of the teachers because they coach - that stipend is minimal! Maybe they need to transfer to the school where you teach. My kids WISH they could get home at 4:00 pm! AND, they still have papers to grade and lessons to plan after they get home at 6:30 or later! Quit whining.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

December 21, 2005 02:45 PM | Link to this

MMM - I was thinking the exact same thing. Everyone does not deserve a raise and definitely not the same percentage.

We are all in the same boat when it comes to healthcare. There are also millions who do not have any healthcare at all.

I am for giving a raise to anyone person who deserves to get one, but I don’t believe that all teachers should receive a raise.

It’s hard to determine the criteria for giving raises at all areas of professions. I’m not a production employee, so there are no true numbers to determine my overall yearly achievements. It basically comes down to whether my boss, believes that I am a productive employee.

I also realize that giving a teacher a raise according to grades or the number of students passing would leave some school systems at a disadvantage. However, this has to play a part in it at some level. The way to solve it, in my opinion, would be to place some of the teachers who received raises for two consecutive years into schools where students perform poorly. This would insure that they are indeed earning the raise in which they have received.

They do it all the time in business. If you are a proven success in a certain location and another location needs leadership, you are asked to meet that challenged - by working in the challenged location.

That’s my opinion.

By Leia

December 21, 2005 02:51 PM | Link to this

Regina - I wasn’t aware that I was whining. I’m sorry if I offended you and your children. The teachers/coaches whom I was referring to DO NOT have to plan or grade papers. They either teach P.E. or Social Studies - neither of which (at my school) require any thought or planning.

FYI - I get home at 4:00, but, my work doesn’t stop at that time. I still work until very late on school-related things from my home. I am underpaid for the amount of work I do - and that is by no means an insult to your teacher/coach children. If they are so miserable getting home at 6:30 - tell them to quit coaching - unless they believe that that is the only reason they were hired! Just food for thought.

By Nick

December 21, 2005 02:54 PM | Link to this

When will teachers quit whining about what they get paid!!!, they should be lucky that they get what they already have!!

Of course I am just kidding. Most teachers I know leave for work between 6:30 and 7:00 am and have to make a strong effort to be gone by 5:00 pm. That alone makes for 10 hour days with a 45 minute planning period and their lunch is short (esp at the elem. level where they are lucky if the get 10 minutes to themselves). That and many spend at least an hour at home doing work related stuff. That easily puts them working at least 55 hours a week. There is no doubt that they deserve more than most get. The most sucessful people in society can trace a bit part of their success to what they learned in school.

By debi

December 21, 2005 02:56 PM | Link to this

It never fails that those who state that teachers are overpaid are those who have absolutely no idea how much time and energy that teachers not only put into delivering their lessons, but also disciplining children who should have already been disciplined at home in certain areas of moral decorum in the first place. Question-Has anyone who claims this ever graded 150 research papers? Dealt with an irate parent? Been in a work place where all sorts of weapons are brought? Give us a break-and more money!

By Hannah

December 21, 2005 02:56 PM | Link to this

Amazed - so you believe that excellent teachers should be punished by being forced to work in a low-achieving school? I work in a high-achieving school where the parents are very supportive. I have received many accolades over the years for doing a good job, and I promise you - if they made me go to a school in the ‘hood - I would quit on the spot. And that is very harsh for me to say, since I love my job so much.

By MRK

December 21, 2005 02:58 PM | Link to this

My wife and I are both teachers. We leave every morning at 7:00am to drop our kids (4) off and be at our schools by 7:25. My wife does NOT get a planning period the entire day. She has to wait until her students are picked up, then she can plan for the next day. She usually gets home around 5pm. I teach and coach (middle school). I am not home until 6:30 or 7:00 four nights per week. My wife has her BA and I have a masters. She makes 30,000 and I make 37,000 plus 1,200 for coaching. The cost of living has gone up so much, we can hardly buy gas and groceries, not to mention childcare.

The money needed to raise salaries should come from “Programs” that waste money year after year. If the Department of Education was a Forbes 100 Company, they would increase the pay of the employees and cut wastful spending. That simple!! Instead, we keeping loosing new and tenured teachers and we keep giving money to every Tom Dick and Harry program that comes along claiming they can raise test scores. Don’t believe me, go to any school and ask what they are doing to raise test scores. I’ll bet they have a minimum of three “programs” they say will bring scores up. It’s not rocket science and teachers don’t want to be rich. Teachers know b/f going into education its going to be a tough job with average pay.

Anyone who thinks teachers are over-paid or paid what they are worth has never set foot in a school and been given 150 students to care for, nurture, discipline and teach. These peopel are foolish. I would invite you to come to my classroom, but you are probably not “highly qualified”.

By Regina

December 21, 2005 03:00 PM | Link to this

Leia: My children LOVE teaching and they do not complain about getting home late or giving up time they could be with their families. I was referring to your comment about coaches making way more than you. The reason they coach is because they like what they do and love the kids they coach. My son teaches high school algebra and my daugher teaches high school special ed…definitely not “fluff” jobs. And, they didn’t start coaching until after a couple of years of teaching.

By wwww

December 21, 2005 03:05 PM | Link to this

Leia - I teach Social Studies, and what you said about it requiring no thought or planning is very ignorant. No, I’m not a coach.

I have respect for every discipline taught in school and for the teachers/coaches in schools. Of course, there are lazy workers anywhere. In my experience, none of these people are coaches. They work an insane number of hours, and if you work out the additional pay, it’s not much better than minimum wage. It baffles me that as a teacher you would make a statement like that about SS. Usually, I respect your comments, but not this time.

I am tired of parents, administrators, CO personnel, an apparently other teachers thinking SS is not an important subject. It is important. For it to be taught properly, it requires much planning, grading, etc.

Sure, there are people who are coaches first and SS teachers second who don’t do what they should. I empathize with them - if I worked until 8-9 M-F and had a game on the weekends, the temptation to pop in a video would be strong.

I cannot count how many times I was asked “What can you coach?” first thing in job interviews after they saw SS as my certification area. It saddens me to know most are hired as coaches first and teachers second. It saddens me further to know an apparently intelligent and motivated educator would fall into the same trap of misconception.

By Leia

December 21, 2005 03:09 PM | Link to this

Regina - the coaches in my county receive a nice stipend plus the bonuses from the booster clubs. Many of them (not all of them) were hired for their coaching abilities, not their teaching. I think it is outrageous that sports are more important than academics in Georgia, yet, people always ask why we are 48th (or 49th) in the nation. One of the reasons is that schools would rather have a good football coach than a good teacher.

By the way - I also teach math (Gifted Precalculus, A.P. Calculus and A.P. Computer Science) so I know what a hard job your son has! If he is a good teacher who happens to coach, way to go!!

By abc

December 21, 2005 03:09 PM | Link to this

Everyone is worth exactly what they’re able to convince someone to pay them. Certainly, all teachers knew what their pay would be like before entering the profession. The tradeoff is for institutional benefits such as pensions, abundant vacation, etc.

Just as everyone has a choice, so do teachers as to how much money they make. If you feel that your profession is underpaid, change professions.

By debi

December 21, 2005 03:10 PM | Link to this

To Amazed- As a teacher, I have always felt that there are students whom you can give an assignment to, place them in a room by themselves, and they will do just fine. For teachers who claim that those students are a result of their teaching skills, in some cases, may be true, but mostly those students who perform well do so because its intrinsic. The students who have to be “taught and retaught” and “cajoled” into learning, and not given up on are the ones who really determine how well a teacher performs. Teachers who are at a high performing school are fortunate, not miracle workers. This may make some teachers mad, but I stand by my words.

Signed-someone who has taught both types of students

By Leia

December 21, 2005 03:12 PM | Link to this

wwww - Ignorance comes from not knowing any better, and I know better! When I say that P.E. and S.S. don’t require planning - I am basing that on what I see everyday at my school.

Of course any teacher (whatever discipline) who is worth their salt would plan effectively, but, my experience at my school is to the contrary.

By teach

December 21, 2005 03:13 PM | Link to this

Teachers absolutely need a raise here in Georgia! People who think we only work until 3pm and have summers off don’t really know any teachers. The work we do is considered one of the most important professions, but yet, its often one of the most underpaid. The government is continuously raising our health care contributions without offering even a cost of living raise, much less a merit increase. And people who think raises should be tied to student achievement should spend some time in a classroom. You have limited control over what group you get each year, some being high achievers, sometimes you have the lower achievers. Tying raises to student achievement also punishes special education teachers - if a special education student doesn’t meet AYP are we to be punished with no raise? All that being said, teachers desperately need raises. I’m tired of getting an email at the end of each year from the county I work for thanking me for my hard work to ensure our county remains one of the highest scoring counties, yet they don’t feel that we deserve a raise. I work for the students to ensure their success, but there should be someone out there who is working to ensure my success by offering me a decent cost of living increase. If you appreciate all that I do, stop giving me $5 candles or letting me wear jeans and a school “spirit” shirt to say thank you. I need a raise!!

By MRk

December 21, 2005 03:18 PM | Link to this

Leigha, I teach special education and coach. My coaching supplement is 1200 per year. That’s 100 dollars a month, b/f taxes. You do the math.

Some coaches are paid large amounts of money. But, they work extremely long hours with lots of pressure. But, to ignore the fact that these men and women play just as an important role in developing young people is ignorant. They work with some of the most disadvantaged youth in the schools, and if it were not for coaches and sports, many of these kids would end up on the streets. I would argue that SOME coaches are paid fairly, while most everyone elese is paid poorly.

By Ernest

December 21, 2005 03:19 PM | Link to this

I do believe GA teachers deserve a raise. I also believe something should be done with the salary structure so that those who distinguish themselves in the classroom can get additional bonuses. Currently, the primary way teachers can increase their salary is to seek an adminstrative and/or central office position. I’m sure many teachers will agree, being good in the classroom doesn’t necessarily translate to being good in a ‘higher’ position. Unfortunately, they don’t have many choices if they desire to make more money yet remain in this field.

By Mara

December 21, 2005 03:23 PM | Link to this

I would rather have a good teacher in my daughter’s classroom than a good coach. The business of schools is teaching and learning. So, shouldn’t the teaching credentials be more important than coaching? And, I think that teachers deserve to have a hefty pay raise for the amount of work they do.

By MRK

December 21, 2005 03:25 PM | Link to this

abc

I will go along, now explain or justify your rationale (why you believe what you said). Please provide us with information that we can use to determine pay for Educators. The floor is yours……..

By scruggs

December 21, 2005 03:30 PM | Link to this

Litmajor, there is definite sticker shock there. My sister-in-law and family moved right across the border into CT and it is much, much cheaper with only a 20-40min commute.

Good luck!

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

December 21, 2005 03:52 PM | Link to this

Hannah,

As a parent and a salaried employee, I do not care if you quit. If my boss sent me to a place I did not want to go, that would be my option as well. However, I thrive on challenges - which is why I have advanced in my current field.

Debi - I believe that some people think that just because they show up, they should be paid well and get a raise each year. You have to put in extra effort to get a raise in most professions. To get a promotion, you have to put in double efforts and go into the environments that are not already thriving. It is those types of people who should become Principles and Administrators. Just because you have taught 15 years in a well performing school, does not mean you should be made an Assistant Principle. I can’t become a Vice President, just because I meet my sales goal each year. That use to be the case and it is in some places, but the best companies are looking for people who set unreasonable goals and meet them. It might be that maricle, that Hannah doesn’t believe can happen.

By Hannah

December 21, 2005 03:57 PM | Link to this

Amazed - You really should care if I (and others like me) quit! Do you honestly believe that this field will attract quality teachers who might be forced to work at an undesirable school after they’ve already paid their dues? I know not!

You continue to thrive on challenges and being wonderful at your job, and so will I - at my current location!

(FYI - it’s “principal”, not “principle”!)

Merry Christmas!!

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

December 21, 2005 03:59 PM | Link to this

WWW - I agree Social Studies is a very important class and it was one of my favorites. My Social Studies teacher was a coach and also one of my favorite teachers.

I keep seeing the complaints about coaches. They should get more money for coaching, because they are putting in the extra effort and time. It would be crazy to think, they should not get extra money for taking on additional responsibilities. That’s the benefits of taking on additional responsibilities and meeting challenges.

By wwww

December 21, 2005 04:04 PM | Link to this

Leia -

I’m going to take a wild guess and say you teach in Gwinnett. :) Sports DEFINATELY takes precedence over any academic area in that county. I went to school in Gwinnett way back when and know others who teach in the county. It is a shame the way priorites are set there.

By Leia

December 21, 2005 04:05 PM | Link to this

wwww - Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! You are a winner!

By Robert

December 21, 2005 04:11 PM | Link to this

Stupid way of setting up this blog… it ISN’T a question of teachers are over paid vs. under paid. It IS a question of supply and demand.

There is a teacher shortage in critical areas such as math and science high school. The State MUST do something to attract teachers to fill these slots. This means raising salaries.

Also, if the people of Georgia want better QUALITY teachers, then again, the salaries must increase in order to attract the more competent people to the profession. Why would a smart, young person with a math degree chose a low paying teaching position over a cool job at IBM? I know that some people do get into teacher “for the love of it” but at some point economics does play a part.

Of course no one wants (higher) taxes. But you cannot get something for nothing. It is simply not logical to say, for example, that teachers are not doing their job and so don’t give an increase. By doing this, you will ENSURE that no one will WANT the job and that the general quality of teachers will remain low.

I do think that Georgia would benefit creating a salary structure similar to some other states. They pay elementary teachers on a different scale compared to high school teachers. In general, high school teachers must know much more content and must pass more rigorous tests in their area, and are therefore compensated for that. Maybe this will attract more teachers to high school math and science - just a thought.

Currently, a first grade teacher is paid on the exact same scale as a high school physics or calculus teacher. Does that make sense to anyone (other than the elementary teachers)?

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

December 21, 2005 04:13 PM | Link to this

Hannah,

Yes, I believe Excellent teachers can be recruited to teach in what you call “undesireable schools”. Those are the teachers I would pay extremely high salaries, because they would truly deserve it. They would also be expected to perform maricles, as you call it. It has been done before.

Those are also the teachers I would put on the fast “track” to becoming Superintendents and “Principals”. Those are the ones who would get extra bonuses. I think it would encourage teachers like yourself to follow in their shoes.

Those undesireable schools would be the stepping stone to the next level in your career.

You need to have a little more faith. I know you can teach in an undersireable school and you can perform a few maricles, if you really wanted too try it.

I’ll leave you alone for today.

By Leia

December 21, 2005 04:14 PM | Link to this

Robert - Amen!!

By Hannah

December 21, 2005 04:19 PM | Link to this

Amazed - I never mentioned working “miracles”, so I don’t really know what you’re talking about.

Additionally, if you pay teachers more money to work in low achieving schools, what type of teacher would that attract? I will tell you - the type who wants some more money for 3 years until they can transfer out!!

By scruggs

December 21, 2005 04:36 PM | Link to this

Robert, great point. I have both my graduate and undergraduate degrees in math and often consider teaching at the high school level. When in grad school, I taught a few courses at the local, understaffed high school. I loved it and was very good at it (from what I was told by students, teachers, and parents). However, in the private sector, I work right at 40 hours a week (rarely over), have a generous time-off schedule (4 weeks vacation, 2 weeks family care time, 2 weeks holidays), and make north of $100k. Do I love my job? No. Do I like it fine? Sure. So it would be very difficult to give up this situation to work for $40k. Math and science grads have too many high-paying options.

I do tutor 3 h.s. students each week, for free, and this is very enjoyable. It is what almost convinces me to take the plunge. Almost!

By Ernest

December 21, 2005 04:43 PM | Link to this

Robert, I LIKE your suggestion! Can you cite states that have a salary structure like this? I also wonder how would the rank and file react to a structure like this.

By Jason

December 21, 2005 04:46 PM | Link to this

Education in the U.S. should be privatized. Teachers should earn as much as they are worth: If you’re a horrible teacher, you teach at a horrible school and make a horrible salary. If you’re a great teacher, you teach at a great school and make a great salary. Let the market do the work the Dept. of Education so obviously can’t.

“What about the poor?” High-performing students at poor schools would earn federally subsidized scholarships to better (read more expensive) schools. Eliminating the costly bureaucracy that is the Dept. of Education would free up billions a year to fund these scholarships.

“Wouldn’t poor students be inconvenieced by having to change schools?” Probably. But that’s life—unfair. If they wanted a better education, the opportunity would be there.

“Wow, smart, hard-working people might want to teach if their pay was limited only by their skill and the market!” Indeed.

By OldSchool

December 21, 2005 05:15 PM | Link to this

I teach on an extended day contract which means I have no planning period during the day but must put in an extra hour each day after regular school hours. I’ve been on this type of contract all 32 years. My only break in the day is my 25 minutes for lunch. I arrive by 6:30 p.m. and usually stay until 4:30 p.m.

There are many many days I stay much later so students can catch up or get ahead on their drafting projects. I also do house plans for area folks. I work on those ONLY for voluntary donations to our SkillsUSA student organization. For many summers I also taught in the Governors Honors Program.

My husband is a retired elementary school teacher and our combined income allowed us to put our two children through college (with the help of student and PLUS loans) and live a fairly comfortable life.

I always wonder just how pay raises based on student performance would be figured for us vocational folk. It is the academic areas that are covered by standardized testing…not skills areas. Would my very good score on the NOCTI or my ADDA Certified Mechanical Drafter score get me a bit of a raise? I doubt it.

And by the way, although I teach on a ten month contract, my pay is divided out over 12 months. I do not get paid for any school year holidays or summer “vacation.”

By teachoverseas

December 22, 2005 08:07 AM | Link to this

Yes- 1st grade teachers make the same as a high school physics teacher. I also teach high school and see the need for well paid, highly qualified elementary school teachers. I’m highly skilled in my content area, but I don’t know how to teach someone how to read, write, add or subtract. I fully ecpect the lower school teachers to have done their job so that I can do mine. What is the physics teacher supposed to do with a kid who cannot do basic math? Do you think they learn that math by themselves? No, a highly skilled, trained elementary teacher working with 30 learning diverent students taught them that. And she did it so that we in the high school can teach them other things. Spend one day with a first grade teacher and then tell me she is not worth every penny and more that we pay her (or him!)

By Susan

December 22, 2005 08:09 AM | Link to this

One thing people who don’t teach may not realize is that for the past several years teachers have gotten only a 2% raise or less. This doesn’t even begin to keep up with the cost of living, not to mention the terrible health insurance that teachers have. A 6% raise wouldn’t even make up that difference, but teachers all over the state are praying for it. I have taught for 24 years and my pay in no way compares with that of kids just out of college who go into a job in business, etc. I love my job but think it’s way past time for teachers to be compensated for all the extra time they have to put in every day, as well as at home and on weekends!

By luvs2teach

December 22, 2005 08:15 AM | Link to this

OK, first let me state that, while I will defend attacks on the length of my day or amount of vacation, I won’t complain about my salary. I did know what I was getting myself into when I chose to leave the corporate world for teaching (and it wasn’t “for the summers off”). My pay is adequate, not spectacular, but it’s a good thing I have a spouse who makes a decent salary. I’m not in this for the money; I’m in this to make a difference.

Second, an informal polling of my family and friends showed that about 60% of them have regular cost-of-living increases, across the board, in addition to annual evaluations and merit increases. Granted it was a small polling sample, but it included a CPA, lawyer, professor, a couple of folks in sales, and even a janitor. MMM, interesting point, but actually invalid. Two people making different salaries don’t receive a raise of the same dollar amount if the increase is a percentage. Teachers are not paid the same - we receive different salaries based on our education, certificate, time in service, and county. My CPA friend’s firm (and CPAs are professional, correct?) will have an across the board COL increase effective January 1st.

I actually like the idea of different salaries based on your job and qualifications, but I would include things like Praxis scores, endorsements (gifted, ESOL, etc - not just having them, but teaching in the area), and whether or not you teach in a high-priority school or subject. I am more than willing to pay teachers at a tougher school more - they deserve it. I teach middle school science, and I wouldn’t have a problem if a high school science teacher earned more, particularly someone teaching AP Chemistry or Physics which are essentially college-level classes.

To abc and others - if you feel your profession doesn’t get enough time off or any of the other benefits associated with teaching that so many complain about (and sound petty and jealous while doing so), change professions. That comment doesn’t make much sense either way now, does it? Please stop using that stupid, tired argument.

Amazed(IW)…Sometimes I read your posts, and I just assume we’re in two different worlds. Today I’m thinking we’re in two different planes of existence. I’m not trying to be ugly; I am truly FLABBERGASTED at your suggestions and comments today. I can only assume that your children are in elementary school, so you have no idea what high school and middle school are like. And I can’t believe that after all the time you spend on this blog, that you think you can really compare anything from business to education. Having done both, I can tell you that your suggestion wouldn’t work. While a pay incentive is a way to get good teachers to stay at an HP school, “rewarding” a good teacher by forcing them to go to another tougher school is unreal. How would you do it? Within a county , for example, Walton to Pebblebrook? Sarah Smith Elementary to McNair Middle? County-to-county, like Gwinnett to Dekalb? Why don’t we just do it state-to-state, and get all those great teachers from the high performing schools up North, force a transfer under NCLB (hey, state-to-state transfers happen all the time in business, so it must be OK) and really make something happen! Miracles! Challenges! Woohoo!

By the way - not all corporate jobs are as Draconian as some of you would want those of us in education to believe. And, if you’re not happy in your corporate job…CHANGE PROFESSIONS - become a teacher!

Have a great day everyone - I’m off to challenge myself and my children. May miracles occur! If I make it through the last day before break, that will truly be a miracle, LOL.

By luvs2teach

December 22, 2005 08:38 AM | Link to this

A couple more thoughts:

Amazed, not to harp on you - you seem like a very nice woman who is sincere in her beliefs - but your comments riled me up more than anything has in this blog in awhile. Why should some educrat get to decide MY challenges? Right now, I’m learning two - TWO - foreign languages to better communicate with my ESOL kids. I chose this school and that challenge for myself - no one told me to come here and do that. If someone gets a merit raise, it’s because they have already proven themselves - they shouldn’t have to change positions two years later and prove themselves again!

In corporate America, you work with the same people for pretty good lengths of time. I get new students every year (hah, at my school it’s more like every week) - that brings plenty of new challenges all by itself.

By the way, if we were to look solely at test scores, and we were to look at percentage of overall improvement, then a teacher like me at an HP school has it easier. Why? Because if I take my kids from 40% to 60%, I’ve made a 20% increase. A teacher at a “better” school takes her kids from 90% to 91%. Who’s a better teacher? My kids are only at 60%. Watch the 80s movie “Summer School.” (And teachers at good schools - that’s not to knock you; I’m just throwing some other thoughts out there).

Also, if you think the term “bloated middle management” was refering to education and if you think that people “in it for the paychecks” are only in education, then you need to give me the name of your optometrist, because I want some of those rose-colored glasses! You find those folks EVERYWHERE! I think the show “The Office” more accurately reflects an office, than “Boston Public” accurately reflects a real school!

Jason - I’m all for privatization if it means I can get rid of the non-performers and misbehavers (not misbehaviors - I’m referring to the kids, not the actions) just like a real private school can.

Another way of looking at it: My per diem is a little more than $200. Divide by 150 kids and that’s $1.33 per kid. I get paid $1.33 for 50 minutes for your child. Try finding a tutor that cheap! (I know, I know, the tutor would be one on one - I’m just trying to give you another way of looking at it). I think the underpaid argument comes when you look at what we make compared to others of the same education (please don’t go into the whole “but an ed. degree is crap” routine). Compared to what I made when I worked at McDonald’s and Target (both jobs I held while I was in school), my pay is GREAT!

You know the corporate world held some pretty nice perks for me - an expense account, a true lunch hour, frequent flier miles…if you have a job that has neither the benefits of the corporate world, nor the benefits of the education world, then maybe you need to CHANGE PROFESSIONS!

Nope, argument is still weak - because maybe people do their jobs for something OTHER than the paycheck. But maybe that’s something some people can’t understand.

By Jay

December 22, 2005 08:47 AM | Link to this

“One thing people who don’t teach may not realize is that for the past several years teachers have gotten only a 2% raise or less.”

Join the club. The vast majority of non-teachers haven’t gotten significant raises either. At least you have the opportunity to work a part-time job over the summer to supplement your income.

“I have taught for 24 years and my pay in no way compares with that of kids just out of college who go into a job in business, etc.”

I find this very hard to believe. With the exception of rookie investment bankers (who work over a 100 hours/week), recent business school grads (BS’s and BBA’s, not MBA’s) make, on average, between $35K and $45K/year. If the average GA teacher makes $46,526/year and you’re making less than $35K after 24 years, you should’ve changed schools/jobs long ago.

By Leslie

December 22, 2005 08:49 AM | Link to this

In what other profession is a person expected to have a masters degree, meet constantly changing requirements to become “highly qualified”, continue education indefinitely at their own expense, subject themselves to the whims of politicians and the constant bashing from media and disgruntled public, live an exemplary life without the slightest tinge of scandal, treat every individual they encounter during the day gracefully and lovingly while trying to achieve state standards, administer mandated tests, create a love of learning and foster an environment of hope and safety for their clients for a starting salary of $35k a year, very little room for advancement, and no control over their raises or product?

Oh I almost forgot to add…with no support of the local school board, parents of your clients, and sometimes- your own administration?

Teachers do not teach for money. They teach for the love of the field, student and future. They work their tails off in a thankless profession and deserve salaries that enable them to live comfortably. They deserve the respect of the media and general public instead of constant bashing. They deserve to be supported and paid for the hard work they do.

You can not and will not convince me that the highly educated professional who is shaping our future and trusted with your children’s education is worth such a low wage.

By Wes Odell

December 22, 2005 08:53 AM | Link to this

I am tired of hearing teachers complain on how much money they make in a years time. I suggest if they don’t like their profession find a 40hr/week job. We rank near the bottom state wise on education, but top in the SE on teacher pay. I would suggest a decrease in salaries based on the performance of the state of Georgia ranks nationally.

By C.R.H.

December 22, 2005 08:55 AM | Link to this

If supply and demand were really a factor then science, math, and spec. educ. teachers would have a different payscale from the payscale used for the rest of the faculty. I know this will ruffle some feathers but it needs to be said, english, PE, & history teachers are a dime a dozen. If you don’t believe me go to the Atlanta Teacher fair in the spring! The first thing a candidate is asked is “What is your certification area?” If you answer PE, social studies or English you are given an application and told to send it in…they get screened out pretty quickly especially if the schools have already booked all the interview time slots for what few positions there are in those subjects. My answer to the question about my certification was “Math and Science”…I was grabbed by the arm and lead directly to the principals for an immediate interview (several actually). Despite the fact that I will never have job security issues because of the subject I teach, I plan to get out at the end of the year. A pay increase really wouldn’t make any difference in my decision because the raise can’t compare to what I’ll be earning in the “real world” with a master’s degree in science. I sure hope the know-it-alls who keep posting on this blog about how teachers are to blame for all that is wrong with education apply for my job AND GET IT!

By John

December 22, 2005 08:56 AM | Link to this

I think that it is sad that so many people in this forum think that it is ok to throw out everything but academics. We are trying to raise well rounded citizens who can do something more than just Reading, Writing, and Math. If you think back to your own publicly funded education you will recall recess, art, and music were some of your fondest memories in school. High school sports are absolutely neccessary to engage and keep active young minds after school hours. There is no telling what these kids would be doing instead of focusing on sports…… That being said, My wife is a speech terrorist in the schools and from what we discuss, teachers are some of the most petty, and whiniest individuals on the planet. Get over it! When the rest of the workers in the country start getting 6% pay raises, you will too. RANT off..

By Leslie

December 22, 2005 09:00 AM | Link to this

Wes, We also rank as one of the states with the highest non-english speaking population, we have very strong special ed programs, we test ALL of our students on the SAT’s, not just the college bound. We educate everyone. Students who are homeless, students with violent tendencies, students who do not speak english, students who move every month, students with no support at home, students who are abused, neglected or written off by society.

Test scores are not an accurate measure of what transpires in GA classrooms. Test scores are manipulated by politicians who could care less about education. Test scores do not indicate how little Johnny made a 15 point leap on his scores, even if they are still below “standards”. Test scores are a political tool used to sway public opinion.

If you want to know what is happening in the schools volunteer. Spend time in actual classrooms. Be an advocate of education and do something about the challenges faced daily instead of judging and throwing around empty rhetoric.

By C.R.H.

December 22, 2005 09:01 AM | Link to this

A “speech terrorist”? Now that is FUNNY!

By james

December 22, 2005 09:26 AM | Link to this

Whatever happened to teachers loving the profession? Is it all about making money now? If monetary compensation is your driving force…..I don’t want you teaching our children. Love it or leave it is a simple solution…..

By luvs2teach

December 22, 2005 09:28 AM | Link to this

Wes - old tired argument yet again - bring something new to the table, PLEASE!

By Leslie

December 22, 2005 09:35 AM | Link to this

James-

Since when did loving your job pay your bills?

I am currently a 34 year old student attending an Education Program as a career switcher. I know what I am getting into and am going anyway because I do love teaching and know I belong in the classroom. I am taking on student loans and will take a paycut to teach.

Think the bank will accept that explanation when I try to explain why I’m late on the mortgage? not likely.

By luvs2teach

December 22, 2005 09:46 AM | Link to this

James - it’s not about the money per se - it’s about being able to survive on the money! With my degree, I could be making a lot more - I was! I left because I was called to teach (next time I’ll have to ignore those voices in my head). Hence, my posting name says it all.

Friend of mine who is a social worker once said, “I love the work, but I sometimes hate the job.” Doesn’t that just about ring true for most of us?.

By retired teacher

December 22, 2005 10:09 AM | Link to this

Teacher pay: In 1973, my first paycheck was for $409. When I retired in 2004, my last paycheck was for $3,300. In the meantime, I earned extra degrees, raised three children and sent them to college, and enjoyed a pretty good life. I have worked with bad children, good children, smart children, “academically challenged” children, neglected children, spoiled children, and on and on and on. After all these years, I still hear from doctors, lawyers, teachers, carpenters, electricians, stay at home mothers, recovered drug addicts, and convicted felons. I played a small part in all of their lives. For some, I was a bump along their highway to success; for others, I was a bright spot in thier dark world. When they were in middle school, I loved them all.
What is the point? Sometimes the rewards in teaching come years down the road.
Pay raises?
I taught middle school, BUT I also raised my children. I have said over and over, If only one group of teachers get a pay raise, it should be the K-3 teachers. I have never had the patience it takes to work with a small child in a group setting. Those teachers are responsibe for teaching the basics plus introducing social skills to small children.

By Matt

December 22, 2005 10:23 AM | Link to this

It’s interesting to note that most of the people who argue that teachers are underpaid are either teachers themselves or close friends or relatives of teachers. Of course they are going to say they are underpaid. I don’t know a single person in any industry who does not think that he or she is not paid proportionally to the hours he or she puts in. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think that teachers are overpaid by any stretch, and I certainly agree that people should get paid what they’re worth. We need a little perspective here, though. Why do teachers think that they are the only ones who work past 5 pm? There are lots of people who work 50+ hours per week every week of the year (let’s not kid ourselves, teachers’ summer schedules are definitely lighter than their school-year schedules) and don’t make what teachers make. And they don’t have the remarkable job security that teachers have or get a guaranteed pay raise every year.

By luvs2teach

December 22, 2005 10:32 AM | Link to this

Matt - no doubt, yet don’t you think your perspective is skewed? You are reading an education blog. Most of the people who post are people who have a vested interest in education.

I know I’m not the only one who works past 5:00, yet the commonly held belief is that we leave when the kids do. any refernce to the hours we work is usually in defense to and an attempt to correct that misconception.

Let’s not kid ourselves, either - I don’t gt paid for my summers off - I am paid for a 192 day contract year. That was a choice I made. But I also choose to use a lot of that time for unpaid staff development or college classes that I am paying for and not getting reimbursed for.

This isn’t about who has it the worst in what profession - it’s “Do teachers make a fair wage?”

By Lee

December 22, 2005 10:32 AM | Link to this

A few observations:

Health care: Everyone (well, except for our Congressmen) are feeling the pinch on health insurance costs. Try being a small businessman paying $650 per month for basic coverage.

AJC ran an article a few months ago where a PE teacher with a Doctorate was making $90k. Thus, the problem with the current salary structure - we are paying for degrees that we don’t need. Most teachers are going back to school to get their Masters or 6yr degree not to improve their teaching skills, but to get that bump up in pay scale. Can’t say that I blame them though.

$46k avg salary probably not too good in metro Atlanta area where there are a lot more employment opportunities. Out here in rural Georgia, that same salary is not too bad - relatively speaking….

If school systems want quality teachers in critical fields, they’re going to have to pay for it. Case in point, why would anyone want to go to college to become a HS Chemistry teacher when they could take four more chem classes and get into the Pharmacy program? Starting salary for a Pharmacist is around $85k. You do the math. Schools are going to have to kick in some major supplements if they want to attract / retain teachers in certain fields.

By Matthew

December 22, 2005 10:41 AM | Link to this

One point to keep in mind whilst comparing private sector employment to public sector employment, in this case teaching, in terms of work weeks.

Teachers put in more than 40 hour work weeks. Agreed. SO DO THOSE IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR! I could not tell you the last time I had a mere 40 hour week, so please don’t make the assumption that Corporate America is the land of the $100K paycheck and nice cushy 40-hour week.

I won’t tell you my salary, but I will definitely tell you that a 40-hour week would be akin to a vacation.

By aboutkids

December 22, 2005 10:42 AM | Link to this

Thanks luvs2teach, I couldn’t have said it myself about Wes’ comments. All these people who bash the teaching field and like to simply compare its state test scores to how much should be paid is typical. They have no substance in their arguement and probably are negative about everything in life anyway. Like you said, there are so many factors involved in each district, school, and with the child. These people who haven’t stepped foot in a classroom in years forget that new teachers make over $10,000 less starting off than the state average.

When I spent thousands to move here because of the opportunity to teach right after college, I certainly wasn’t driven by the money. I could have stayed up North and made more. I work in probably one of the most diverse middle schools in this state and in my five years have probably seen, heard, questioned, answered, and cried over just about every possible situation one can think of dealing with 13 year old young adults. I chose to work in this environment and absolutely chrish being able to make a difference in the lives of students of all colors and creeds. I wouldn’t trade that to go work at some suburban school where I can basically punch in each day, teach my lesson, and leave. I spend an excessive amount of time not only being a teacher, but a parent many times to these kids each day. I also work in a school that cares more about keeping its name out of the news and not upsetting a parent than most of its faculty. What pressure being around over 100 kids each day and watching every movement you make, especially being a male. I can basically have a kid not like me and make up anything to get me fired and then my career is over, nobody from another district is going to hire me. And those parents, or the ones who actually care or don’t use you as a babysitter for eight hours. Use your imagination, I don’t even have to get into what problems can erupt from dealing with them. I have to say though, I’ve met some of the nicest people since teaching who are wonderful and supportive, but for every supporting family of a child I find, I have ten families who can care less. I’ve had students who thought about suicide at this young age come to me for advice and other students in general want to sit down and talk about their personal issues. I teach a grade that requires the students to pass a test in order to advance to the eighth grade, when in reality their actual grade doesn’t matter and they know that. My barely 20 minute lunch is spent watching a table of 25 eat, in hopes some fight or loud yelling or talking doesn’t take place. My planning time, at least a few days a week, is spent in some meeting given by one of the many assistant principals that need something to do to earn their $80,000 paycheck. I also put up with the stereotype of being a young, male Social Studies teacher and that since I’m still newer I don’t know what I’m doing. I work with plenty of so-called veteran teachers who don’t have a clue when it comes to dealing with the diversity these kids bring to the table and not understanding their culture and being able to relate. Now I’m not saying all of them are like that, so don’t jump on me now, but many are. And for you veterans, don’t ever say you’ve never looked down upon a newer teacher or had something bad to say about one. There are plenty of unqualified first year teachers out there, but the stereotypes do exist. By the way, that $37,000 I earn starting to sound good yet? Am I starting to sound overpaid? Well you know what people who have never spent a second in front of a classroom, it’s worth it and fullfilling. I just feel fortunate to have an education and career.

I have students with a pretty long rap sheet as far as discipline goes, but I am proud to say that my approach to them as people too, just like you and me, and giving them the chance to express their opinions and discuss their future and let them know they’re just not there to pass the test and move on really influences a kid in a positive manner. I do all that I can for them and even more. Being able to get a 13 year old to listen and respect you is not an easy chore. So if we all give up, who then teaches in these need schools? At least I can say I go to work every day and truly play a big role in the future of society and I’m doing my best, being positive, honest, realisitc, and putting it in the minds of students that they can do anything they want to. All for $37,000, quite a bargain!

By luvs2teach

December 22, 2005 10:50 AM | Link to this

Matthew - a lot of us who regularly post to this blog left corporate jobs to become teachers - WE KNOW that lots of people in corporate America work more than 40 hours - most of us did that! That’s not the point. The points is that teaching isn’t the cushy job lots of you would think.

It’s really just a case of “the grass is always greener” isn’t it? And unless you’ve been on both sides of the fence you can’t know.

By Matthew

December 22, 2005 10:50 AM | Link to this

Aboutkids - I applaud your career choice, but I do not understand your point.

Are you looking for validation? A pat on the back?

I’m glad you’re doing what you are doing. You said yourself that you knew what you were getting into, so I don’t understand your point.

By Matthew

December 22, 2005 10:58 AM | Link to this

luvs:

The point I was making is that if you want to do well in any career, whether teaching or finance or law or construction, you work more than 40 hours. Period.

(Unless you move to Germany, but that is a different can of worms.)

I have never encountered someone who actually thinks that teachers only “work” from 7 AM to 3 PM. Seems like many on this board like to beat their chests about how many hours they are putting in, and it smacks of being defensive.

By Tony

December 22, 2005 10:59 AM | Link to this

About teacher pay there are a couple of important points to remember. First, teacher pay is set by a political body (State Legislature) upon recommended by another politician (the governor) who all work hard to get re-elected by never raising taxes. One good example of how this system fails our teachers is with the pay for teachers who earn Nation Board certification. Last year, the legislature pulled the plug on giving teacher who earn this distinction the 10% raise unless they agreed to teach in a “Needs Improvement” school. This tells teachers that their hard work in the classroom and the hard work in getting this credential are not appreciated. In fact, words like “runaway spending” were used to describe this approach to rewarding hardworking teachers in our state.

Across the board, percentage increases increase the gap between the bottom and top of the pay scale. Obviously, the longer one is in the profession, the more he/she will benefit from the percentage increases. Several have suggested that salary increases be granted in a different way so that only the ones deserving the raise would get it. Under current rules in our state, teachers who do not earn satisfactory evaluations are not moved up on the pay scale. Granted, this requires principals to be the heavy but that is what we are paid for.

Bottom line: Teachers deserve a pay raise. All the “free time” is a myth! There should not be a different pay scale for high school teachers. Perhaps the critical areas should receive bonuses each year the sign the contract again, but the salary rate should remain according to the scale. To the one who implied elementary teachers should be on a different pay scale, he may be right - they deserve much more that high school teachers.

By Beth

December 22, 2005 11:02 AM | Link to this

Teachers are definitely underpaid, especially when you take into consideration the hours they put in at home grading and preparing, and the fact that they often use money of their own to supplement underfunding for supplies. Yes, they get summers off, and some vacation time during the year, but much of that time is spent preparing, catching up, and taking continuing education credits. The education of our children is one of the most important aspects of protecting the future of this country, and it should be treated as such.

By 2teach

December 22, 2005 11:09 AM | Link to this

Robert:

It is apparent to me by your comments that you haven’t spent a week teaching at the elementary level.

It may not be a requirement that I have advanced degrees in one particular area (which by the way, I do have); however, I do not have the luxury of teaching one subject area either. Elementary teachers should be well versed in children’s development & learning styles of all subject matter.

People have a tendency to place value only on what they see & know and make assumptions for everything else. I have worked on both sides of this fence. Teaching high school was no more difficult or easy than teaching at the elementary level.

By Luvs2teach

December 22, 2005 11:25 AM | Link to this

Matthew - hang around here long enough and you’ll see it. My point isn’t really about pay; it’s more about perception. ALL jobs have pros and cons. And it probably is a little defensive - we get attacked a lot (as do parents, and the kids).

Sometimes this blog brings out very good points; sometimes people are just trying to rile things up.

By 2teach

December 22, 2005 11:25 AM | Link to this

Speaking to pay raises based upon performance:

There is great danger in deciding raises upon performance. There are many schools, like mine, where children are ‘clustered’ into classrooms. For example, this year, I have all the resource students(special ed.) for the grade level. I also have a large cluster of EIP students.

I love my students as well as the challenges they bring. However, consider this. How would you compare my class’ performance to that of the three teachers who have the gifted cluster of students?

I do set forth very challenging goals for all of my students. However, this type of pay compensation for performance assumes that we all start out with level playing fields.

If you want to talk achievement vs. performance, I would certainly consider negotiations for that. But never on performance alone.

By Rhonda K.

December 22, 2005 11:35 AM | Link to this

Not sure how many people know this, but the salaries of teachers and staff is public information.

Go here:

http://www.audits.state.ga.us/internet/ead/leaschools2004

Do I think teachers are overpaid? No, but in my opinion, many of the additional staff at schools are.

By NC Teacher

December 22, 2005 11:36 AM | Link to this

I am a special ed teacher in NC. I teach an elementary class, 6 kids with behavior and emotional problems. Talk about a challenge. BUT, do I think I should be paid more than a 1st grade teacher, or a high school English teacher? No. I would NOT want their jobs! I will stick with my 6 challeneged students. Oooo, just the thought of having to grade 90+ essay tests, grading 90+ HW assignments, UGH! No Thank you! I’ll take a flying chair every once in a while or the occasional drop of the F bomb any day. I think we all as elementary or content area teachers have things we are good at and that’s why we choose the position we do. Would any of you want my position? Most likely not, but that’s the way I feel about yours, so we should all be paid the same. NOW, that being said, I do have a problem with specialists getting paid the same. Someone who plays ‘kickball’ or sings songs all day should not be on my payscale.

I’m going to say it…I love my time off! But what I mean by that is I take comfort in knowing I will have every weekend and holiday off, no questions asked. EVERYBODY should have that. But summers?? HA! Like many other teachers, I too have a summer job to supplement my salary. So those of you who say we have summers off should actually ask teachers you know about that. Chances are most of them work.

MERRY HOLIDAYS!

By scuse me

December 22, 2005 11:49 AM | Link to this

How many teachers entered the profession understanding the pay?

I see nothing wrong with paying teachers what they’re worth, but I do have reservations about paying them what they THINK they’re worth.

The bottom line is that teachers pay has always rather ahh ——sucked. People currently in the profession knew that going in. So what’s the beef now? I’m not being paid enough?

Most of us change professions when we feel that way. GET A JOB!

By Leia

December 22, 2005 11:54 AM | Link to this

scuse me -

Yes, we knew what the pay was when we got into this profession, but, we did it anyway because for most of us - it was a calling.

We do have a job!

How many people here have gone through life without a teacher?

By scuse me

December 22, 2005 12:02 PM | Link to this

Leia,

I was talking to all the whiners not to teachers that feel it’s a calling. Don’t be so darn defensive. Look at it logically. In the job market when we become dissatisfied with conditions we simply change jobs. Why don’t teachers do that instead of whining? Why? Well must be because it really isn’t that

By scuse me

December 22, 2005 12:03 PM | Link to this

Well must be because it really isn’t that BAD

By shek

December 22, 2005 12:08 PM | Link to this

Leia, www and Regina: Speaking from personal experience, my husband is a teacher (in the social studies department) and a coach (two sports). He is one of the hardest working people that I know. He will tell anyone that he is a teacher first and coach second. He also teaches AP classes and currently has three preps. I can’t believe that teachers that don’t coach a sport would ever accuse coaches of doing “half the work.� My husband is at school by 7 a.m. each day to prepare lesson plans, grade papers and take care of paperwork. He teaches all day, of course has lunch duty as well, and coaches after school, getting home around 8 p.m. On game nights he isn’t done until close to 10:30 p.m. and spends Saturdays coaching as well. The supplement from the county and the booster clubs are nice, but when you break it down by hour, coaches are getting paid very little for their extra work. And the bigger cost is time away from his family. My husband has a very supportive family that attends every event with him because not only does he care about what he does, but so do the people around him.

My husband spends lots of time preparing for his classes because he takes his job seriously. And he spends his summers getting ready for the fall semester to try and get ahead of the curve. He would like to get his master’s degree because he is that committed to teaching, but with the schedule he keeps, it’s going to be difficult. I am glad to see that the pay for GA teachers is this highly ranked in the country.

By Leia

December 22, 2005 12:15 PM | Link to this

shek -

Hopefully, you understood that my comments were speaking generally about the situation at my school.

Do you think your husband’s attitude about teaching/coaching is the norm or the exception?

By luvs2teach

December 22, 2005 12:19 PM | Link to this

Scuse me - same old, same old…that’s not the point. Bring something new to the table PLEASE! And if you don’t understand what I’m talking about read my previous posts.

And if you can read my previous posts - THANK A TEACHER (or a terrific parent).

By Never Been There

December 22, 2005 12:21 PM | Link to this

Who doesn’t feel they are underpaid for the work they do? I have never been a teacher nor do I care to become one, but I have a job that requires me to be there as early as 6:00 AM and I am rarely home before 6:00 PM in the evening (more likely around 7:00 PM most of the time). If you took my annual salary and divided it by the number of hours I spend on my job or doing work after I’ve arrived home in the evenings, it doesn’t add up to much per hour either. In the grand scheme of things it doesn’t make sense that entertainers make the phenominal amounts of money they do, but as a society we make that happen for them when we spend our money to support entertainment. We all choose what we are going to do to earn a living. No one else makes that choice for us. Likewise, we all make a decision on where and how we are going to spend our money. As a whole, things will change when we make them change. Money is the bottom line here. We make it, we spend it. If we want teachers to earn more and entertainers to not make as much, we will change it, but not until we decide to change.

By scuse me

December 22, 2005 12:21 PM | Link to this

luvs2teach

Can’t answer the question, huh?

By shek

December 22, 2005 12:24 PM | Link to this

Leia – And I agree that I can only speak on behalf of what I see at my husband’s school. By nature of his job, my husband has quite a few good friends that are also teachers and coaches. While I can’t speak for all of them, I would say the majority are in the field of teaching because they have a passion for helping children learn – on or off the field.

By high school teacher

December 22, 2005 12:29 PM | Link to this

To Robert and all others who think high school teachers should make more than elementary teachers:

My son’s Pre-K teacher works 10 times as hard as I do! Elementary teachers are the most resourceful people I know. They are just as deserving of a raise as any other grade level, if not more so. I can’t imaging teaching children how to read, write, spell, count, add subtract, wipe their noses, tie their shoes, sing songs, cut with scissors, the list goes on and on…

I’m not saying that I don’t work hard, but at least I have an area of concentration. Kudos to all of you elem teachers.

If anyone in education needs pay raises, it’s paraprofessionals. They too spend 8 hrs a day with children and spend time after hours, and make a whopping $18,000 a year.

By Mara

December 22, 2005 12:31 PM | Link to this

scuse me -

We are not “whining”. We are simply responding to the blog topic!

I have had several students tell me that they would love to go into education as a profession, but, would not, because of the low pay.

By staying in the profession and not switching jobs, we are showing our students that money isn’t everything, and you have to do what your heart tell you to from time to time.

If we “whine” long enough and loudly enought - maybe things will change and we can attract more young people (who would be wonderful teachers) into the profession.

Have a good day!

By scuse me

December 22, 2005 12:33 PM | Link to this

Never Been There

No, teachers here in Georgia can change things witha bit of intestinal fortitude, forming a union.

By scuse me

December 22, 2005 12:37 PM | Link to this

Mara,

We are not “whiningâ€?.— If we “whineâ€? long enough and loudly enought

Which is it?

By Mara

December 22, 2005 12:49 PM | Link to this

scuse me -

Did you notice that I put the word inside of quotation marks? What does that signify to you?

Your comments are indicative of one of the reasons we deserve more money! Can you imagine having up to 30 of “you” in a classroom for 53 minutes at a time??!!

By scuse me

December 22, 2005 12:53 PM | Link to this

Yes mamm, you couldn’t deal with 30 little me’s questioning your authority.

By MamaS

December 22, 2005 12:57 PM | Link to this

My mother taught 42 years and retired with a specialist (6-year) degree. She taught 12 months and had 2 weeks off each year. I also have a 6-year specialist degree. I teach in a system with year-round school and I have 6 weeks off each year. When I retire after 32 years of work I will have a retirement check that is only $400 a month more than my mother’s! And she retired in 1980! Neither of us has Social Security because the counties we worked in chose not to contribute for teachers at the time we were hired. I will retire, move in with my mother to save expenses, and try to find a job for ten more years that does pay social security benefits so that I will have that. I fear living as long as my mother because I know that there will be no cost-of-living raises that actually equal the cost of living. If you want to see what teachers have to look forward to, go to your local nursing home — you will find lots of retired teachers there, because they could not afford to live decently or independently.

By Mara

December 22, 2005 12:58 PM | Link to this

scuse me - you are absolutely right! I would find it difficult to cover the material in the curriculum if I had 30 of “you” being defiant and questioning my authority just for the sake of being a jackass for 53 minutes a day!

By scuse me

December 22, 2005 12:58 PM | Link to this

Mara,

To use your own word (or not word)

This is enought reason you don’t deserve more money.

By Lisa U.

December 22, 2005 01:01 PM | Link to this

I cannot think of a fair way to establish merit pay for teachers. If pay raises are based on student test scores, how will music, P.E. art, special ed., remedial, etc. teachers earn raises? I also fear that if teachers had to compete with one another for raises, the teamwork would end. For example, I recently shared a project idea and materials with a co-teacher. My students loved the project, so I thought my co-teacher’s students would benefit as well. The principal happened to see the results of my co-teacher’s student work, praised the teacher in front of the staff and let her leave work early that Friday. What if she’d gotten a raise for using my idea and materials? I like to think I’d still share ideas and materials even if someone else received a raise and I didn’t, but it would be hard. I competed for raises in the private sector for fifteen years prior to becoming a teacher. One of the things I love about the teaching profession is the sense of community and teamwork. The children would be harmed if that teamwork was destroyed.

By scuse me

December 22, 2005 01:02 PM | Link to this

Mara,

enought is enought—time for me to be a good little soldier and get back in the box.

Have a great Day

By Mara

December 22, 2005 01:07 PM | Link to this

scuse me -

Yes - I made a typographical error. It’s not that big of a deal to me, but, I apologize if my mistake offended you. Please rest assured that I am completely capable of spelling words correctly! Don’t let my error ruin your day!

You have fallen into the trap of pointing out typos when you have no cogent argument!

Have a nice day & a Merry Christmas!

By Jason

December 22, 2005 01:23 PM | Link to this

“How would you compare my class’ performance to that of the three teachers who have the gifted cluster of students? …pay compensation for performance assumes that we all start out with level playing fields.”

A teacher’s performance should be based on the relative IMPROVEMENT their class makes from the start of a semester to the end. Thus, the playing field, while not perfectly fair, would be pretty level.

By Elaine

December 22, 2005 01:27 PM | Link to this

I am a teacher (9 yrs) and this is a very big area of concern for me. I always feel that we should get paid more. I do know that there are those in the profession that are just “there”. However, I also believe it would be difficult to base pay on student achievement, etc.

What I really have a problem with are those who tend to believe that we have the “best” work schedules out there. Planning time? What’s that? In my school, we get 55 minutes daily, however, 3 of those 5 days, we are in mandatory meetings for the entire time. It has gotten to the point where we have to stay until at least 5 pm to get most of the work done..unless of course, you want to drag it all home with you.

By Robert

December 22, 2005 01:44 PM | Link to this

I forget who asked my about what other states/areas use the salary structure that I mentioned, but….

The structure was that elementary teachers are not paid on the same scale as high school teachers. The reasonning is that elementary teachers level of content knowledge is pretty darn low. For example, let’s look at math. An elementary teacher must know basic addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. While a high school teacher must have a greater understanding and deeper level of content such as algebra, trig, and calculus.

It is the difference in level of content knowledge IN ADDITION to the shortage of high school teachers that initally lead to the differentiation of pay scales. Sorry to state the obvious, but elementary teachers are a dime a dozen which high school math teachers are very very rare to find in order to hire. High school math teachers is a critical area in Georgia as is high school science.

I first learned of this separate pay scale through a friend that taught in the Chicago area. The teacher’s union there (yes, they have a real union) forced the school systems to offer more money to the high school teachers - not because they just “wanted more money” but because the class room sizes were getting ridiculously huge (try teaching math to a room filled with 50+ kids). The union forced them to offer more money to lure more people into the profession and fill the teacher shortage.

Sound familiar? Isn’t Georgia going through this same thing? The difference is that Georgia doesn’t have a real teacher union to force systems to do anything and so to save money our class room sizes continue in increase and our standardized test scores continue to decrease.

Then, the idiots that know nothing about pedagogy (which is many that post on this blog) make statements that blame the poor teacher trying their best to teach those 50+ kids in one room and say that teachers do not deserve a pay raise.

Why do people that have never ever been a teacher, never ever had an education course in college, never ever been in a modern day classroom are experts and form an opinion? Do these same people tell their doctor how to operate on their intestines?

Anyway, it is my understanding that it is not only Chicago area that offers this split pay scale. There are others throughout the Country that do this. I have heard this to be true in Northern California and in many areas in the NE.

By Robert

December 22, 2005 02:01 PM | Link to this

Merit pay for teachers is not possible and not fair. Teachers cannot pick and chose which kids become students in their classrooms. Every kid brings different baggage with them. I teach high school. Some students cannot even read while others are already at the college level.

If I happen to get kids that cannot read in any given semester, do I not get Merit pay because of this? How does this reflect my ability as a teacher?

Merit pay is an idea by idiots that know nothing about education trying to come up with solutions when they do not even understand the problem.

By Jason

December 22, 2005 02:12 PM | Link to this

This whole argument is ridiculous. Of course teachers are underpaid. That’s why our education system is crap. By “our”, I’m referring to the United States. We are 24th out of 29 industrialized countries in math and science people.

Quit wasting money on computers and athletic facilities, and put it into something useful like teachers’ salaries for your children. The compensation given to teachers stands no chance to attract the best and brightest—except for the wonderful people who do it for the passion. We’re capitalists, like it or not, so how about investing in our children/future?

By Regina

December 22, 2005 02:13 PM | Link to this

Leia/Shek: The coaches I know (from when my children were in school and now that they coach) are teachers first and coaches second. My daughter told me last night that her stipend for coaching averages out to about $3.00 per day. She (and the rest of the coaches I know) certainly aren’t doing it for the pay!

By Jeff

December 22, 2005 02:14 PM | Link to this

Slightly off the subject, but laughable (if it wasn’t so depressing/ frustrating):

Guy volunteers at an alternative school for 5 yrs, teaches summer camps, and tutors at the college level the entire time he’s working at the alternative school. (Learning how to manage the most difficult students imaginable!) Decides he wants to be a teacher. Gets to student teaching, and the personal agendas of his collaborating teacher pushes him out of student teaching. Takes the PRAXIS II tests for his subject, passes them with FLYING colors (though, admiteddly, after he thought he had completly bombed them). This guy isn’t “highly quialified” to teach - even though he’s had MUCH MUCH more experience in the classroom than those who have just had student teaching and has dealt with the roughest kids - in addition to proving that he can deal academically with the best in his university in nearly ANY subject, not just the one he intends to teach. So he’s gonna have to go TAPP and waste 2 yrs of his life - IF he can find a job in the first place. (After having been on roughly FORTY interviews since May!!)

I’m prepared to accept the low pay - I’ve had jobs where I made less to do more. Teaching is my passion, my calling. And I guarantee you that you want me as your kid’s math teacher. My lack of experience is a good thing - I don’t have all the preconcieved notions of what will “work”, so I try dang near anything.

Anyways, sorry for the venting. If any of you more experienced teachers have any ideas on things I can do to get my tail hired somewhere, PLEASE let me know! :)

By luvs2teach

December 22, 2005 02:17 PM | Link to this

scuse me - haven’t been here. Give me a minute to read the blog, then I’ll answer your question.

By luvs2teach

December 22, 2005 02:25 PM | Link to this

Scuse me - in reference to your question, asked and answered, baby, asked and answered. Read my prior posts.

This is an education blog. The topic is education. Today’s topic is our pay, which I have gone on the record as stating it is adequate. What you call whining I call being on the defensive when attacked, which your post was - at at least as perceived by me.

Yeah, we know about the pay, and yeah, we know about the hours, but we also are not in this fo the money or the summers off - those that are don’t last long.

I left my 60+ hour a week, $80,000 a year pharmeceutical sales job because it was meaningless! Selling more drugs to people who only need them becasue they eat too much and don’t exercise enough was not my calling. Teaching science to crazy 8th graders was. I may not bring home enough money, and I may bring home more work, but I also know I’m making a difference in someone’s life EVERYDAY. I’m not a miracle worker and I’m not in it to change the world, but every life I touch is my small way of making the world better.

What have you done today, other than insult us?

By Jeff

December 22, 2005 02:38 PM | Link to this

Oh, another comment, this one completely on topic:

The figure Patti quotes is INCREDIBLY misleading. The AVERAGE teacher salary in GA is 46,000, roughly. 1st year teachers though? Try MAYBE 30,000. State gives roughly 28,000, and depending on the system you get anywhere between 500 - 10,000 on top of that - and most systems I know of in GA don’t offer incentive pay that I’ve seen in other states. (Such as more money if you’re a critical needs teacher, such as Chemistry, math, etc)

GA’s AVG salary indicates that the AVERAGE teacher has been teaching for: 46526

SEVENTEEN (17) years with a Master’s Degree OR

EIGHT (8) years with a Specialists’s Degree OR

SIX (6) years with a Doctorate

Where is Bachelor’s in there? You CAN’T make the AVERAGE salary on a Bacehlor’s degree pay scale… after 19+ years your salary is only 42,375.

Guess what this tell me? a) We have a lot of VERY highly trained teachers in this state…

Or (from what I’ve seen, just as likely):

You think we have a teacher crunch now? Within a few more years, a druggie will be able to get a job as a teacher. (OK, that may be a SLIGHT embellishment, but you get the point. The shortage we’re about to face - and this is strictly based on my evaluation of the numbers here - will FORCE the standards for “highly qualified” to drop exponentially.)

By AP

December 22, 2005 02:56 PM | Link to this

I taught for 7 years in the elementary schools and am now in administration. The pay increase is pleasant, yes. But the money I made before wasn’t too bad either. Growing up in a large family (6 kids) and on the lower end of the socioeconmic scale, I think that budgeting and finance has a large part to do with how much money you perceive you are or are not making. My parents never made more that 30 grand a year, combined, but we never did without and we learned to appreciate what we had and not wish for things that “everyone else had”. Society has put a stigma on who has what house and who drives what car, enough so that people are living and spending way beyond what they are bringing in. Really, does your kid need that Xbox 360? Is that $600 Lexus payment making you feel good when you hang around your other friends? The pastor at Northpoint Community Church gave a great sermon about how to manage your money which is applicable to teachers who make $45,000 a year or a migrant worker who makes much less or a millionare banker. Be happy with what you have becasue it might now be there tomorrow!

By scuse me

December 22, 2005 03:01 PM | Link to this

What have I done today?

Ah, nothing really—just gave all of my employees the rest of the year off (with pay) handed them each their bonus checks and jerked a few chains of whiners on this blog.

May you ALL have a VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS and a PROSPEROUS NEW YEAR.

TRAVEL SAFE!!

By luvs2teach

December 22, 2005 03:05 PM | Link to this

One’s man’s whine is another’s defense. Some people will always believe they are right, myself included, LOL.

Merry Christmas, all!

By Jeff

December 22, 2005 03:08 PM | Link to this

scuse me,

OK, I’m taking what you said there as a confession to practical joking, and as some one who does love a good practical joke, thanks for the laughs. (The best ones always make people get REALLY p** and then be able to laugh at themselves, and this has defintely happened in my case, so congratulations!)

May you also have a very merry Christmas and a very prosperous New Year!

By jim dumond

December 22, 2005 03:14 PM | Link to this

What a rediculous question.

Do teacchres deverve more pay and how much?

Certainly some teachers deserve more and of course some are already overpaid. But isn’t that the case in any occupation?

By D

December 22, 2005 03:32 PM | Link to this

Teachers are underpaid. They are expected to teach a child as well as make that child act correctly, even when they do not act correctly at home. In addition, they have no authority to enforce any corrective action upon said child. Like having the responsibility of running a company without the authority to make any decisions. For some of you sports fans, it is like coaching the Yankees!!

By Laura

December 22, 2005 03:40 PM | Link to this

It’s not that I’m against teachers making more money. It’s just that I don’t want to give the schools districts any more tax money. There is too much monetary waste in the school districts now. Our superintendent’s driver makes $42,000/year.

By East Point's Own

December 22, 2005 03:54 PM | Link to this

Just my 2 cents in defense of all those coaches out there.

I was once a student and I played sports as well as maintained a 4.0+ GPA. So I know the value of both good teachers and good coaches. I had a few really good teachers in my public school career, maybe 5 who I can say really stand out as people who helped to change my way of thinking and really did their jobs well. But I can clearly remember all of my coaches (from multiple sports) and I can say that I learned valuable lessons which I find myself still relying upon to this day to help me through certain situations. Coaches can teach you more in a season that you learn all year sitting in a classroom, and in many ways that education is used in real life more than knowing calculus or microbiology.

By Robert

December 22, 2005 04:54 PM | Link to this

Laura,

Your solution should not be (like some) to send kids to private schools. Your solution should not be to deny an increase in teacher salary.

If you are indeed outraged by the waste in spending by your school district, then you SHOULD become involved! Run for the districts School Board, for example. At the very least, attend every School Board meeting so that your voice can be heard. Local School Boards are the “police” and unless you give them your input, how are they to know what you feel?

By Triton

December 22, 2005 05:43 PM | Link to this

Who can comment on the pay for Paraprofessionals.

By Pepper

December 22, 2005 05:44 PM | Link to this

Who can comment on the pay for Paraprofessionals.

By scuse me

December 23, 2005 08:04 AM | Link to this

Jeff, Unfortunately it wasn’t totally a joke. I must agree however, that this would have been a rather boring blog yesterday without my input.

I was simply pointing out many of the arguments that I constantly hear.

I think what most people don’t understand and a thing that’s rarely been mentioned in this blog, is where teacher’s time is spent.

Interestingly there was an article, in Inside Higher Education, yesterday that can be found here

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2005/12/22/hours

A great article that describes how many of you spend your days. The one thing that became immediately apparent to me was the amount of time spent doing administrative garbage that includes paperwork to comply with State and Federal regulations.

I’m not attempting to stir the pot again, but it would appear that teachers would be much happier with their pay if they didn’t have to fill out all the paperwork that really should be being done by administrative staff. Would that be a safe assumption? If so, I fail to understand why teachers haven’t rebelled. Bottom line is that your working conditions will not change until teachers demand change.

By Tiffany

December 23, 2005 08:57 AM | Link to this

Teachers make significantly more than many public service workers such as case managers and social service workers although they deal with the same community. On average a caseworker makes $23,000-$25,000 a year although most have degrees. Teachers should not complain.

By alice

December 23, 2005 09:03 AM | Link to this

Many teachers should make more and central office employees should almost always make less plus given their high salaries they need to work regular business like schedules. Fulton County School System is closed from today until January 6! I am certain that these central office employees also get vacation time to go along with their large salaries.

By 2teach

December 23, 2005 09:19 AM | Link to this

Tiffany:

While I have no doubt that caseworkers are also underpaid and overworked… how does that justify underpaying teachers???? It only justifies that caseworkers also need a raise!

I would be interested, if anyone knows, any other professional career that requires (not suggests) a minimum of a bachelor’s degree, Board certification & recertification that makes the same salary range of a teacher.

Again, keep in mind, there are many teacher’s out there, who do not make the average $47,000 a year. Most, by average at my school, are making about $32,000 - $40,000.

By Tiffany

December 23, 2005 09:27 AM | Link to this

2teach:

I agree, many public service workers are underpaid. Teachers just band together better than many other groups, I’ll give you that. But why should a horrible teacher (and I had some growing up) make get the same raise as a good teacher? (I also had these) At what point will many teachers be satisfied? What do many teachers desire to make salary wise?

By 2teach

December 23, 2005 10:02 AM | Link to this

I agree that the overall payscale system can be unfair. I saw a glimpse of that the last couple of years as our grade level chairperson.

Although I was aked by the principal & had taken on the additional responsibility of gradechair (for the third year), because all of my collegues had more years experience than myself, most of them were making $10,000 - $15,000 more a year. A couple of them really pitched in to help, while others did very little. They were wonderful teachers in the classroom but rarely lifted a finger to assist with “other duties as assigned”. I suppose they felt that they had “been there, done that” at some point in their career. However, it still left a massive amount of work to be done by few.

I don’t know what the answer is.

By Mara

December 23, 2005 10:04 AM | Link to this

Tiffany -

Unfortunately, there is no way to differentiate the pay for a “good” teacher vs. a “bad” teacher, so we have to ask for a uniform raise across the board and go from there.

Merit pay would make teachers not want to work collaboratively with each other and create horrible morale in a school.

To answer your question - teachers will be satisfied when our pay is at least consistent with the cost of living increase and the increasing price of health care.

Is that too much to ask for?

By Robert

December 23, 2005 10:33 AM | Link to this

scuse me…

First, let me say that I am glad that you are at least attempting to inform yourself by reading that article. That is far beyond what many do - most assume that magically know everything about education.

Second, I for one teacher would certainly agree with your assessment that we need less paperwork and B.S. I jokingly told my department head that each teacher needs our own secretary to do a really good job - I was only part way joking.

Third, I still do not think that you fully understand all of the factors regarding teacher pay. For example, how would you handle teacher shortage in the critical areas? If no pay increase is proposed, how would you lure more people into these positions (primarily high school science and math)? With many classrooms overload due to AYP (my high school made AYP and so all students from all over the system transferred to my school which lead to over crowded classrooms) how do you propose to compensate teachers that are now teaching twice the number of students in a single class?

There are many many issues surrounding this one question. That is why I initially said that the blog name/title was poorly worded. It is not just that teachers deserve more/less pay, it is much more than that.

By Wes Odell

December 23, 2005 10:33 AM | Link to this

Underpaid take a gander for yourself…

www.audits.state.ga.us/internet/ead/SalaryandTravelLEAs.html

By Sharon

December 23, 2005 10:44 AM | Link to this

Leia, I can not believe that you as a teacher would say that P.E. and Social Studies do not require any planning. I’m sure glad that you’re not teaching my children!

By 6th grade teacher

December 23, 2005 11:23 AM | Link to this

As a teacher, my degree is my pay raise. I don’t get any extra “bonus” pay or end of year performance pay, stock options, lavish gifts for a job well done.

My salary is public knowledge, yet it is more scrutinized than any other public official in Georgia. The Governor of the great State of Georgia doesn’t even come close to the scrutiny over his salary that we do.

My Specialist Degree pay doesn’t even come close to matching what a corporate MBA will make. I agree, I have some perks, but any person in a similar position would have the same amount of days off - vacation, as you like to call it and would have more company benefits, problably at no cost, than I ever will have.

Real quick - here are some other perks that are quickly forgotten as any discussion about teaching begins to heat up.

I can have creative liberty on how I do my job - as long as ONE parent doesn’t get upset, no matter how successful I might be. I can’t fire any of my students for chronic tardies. I can’t fire any of my students because they are bullies on the job site. I can’t fire any of my students because they fight on the job site. I can’t fire any of my students because they refuse to do any work on the job site. I can’t fire any of my students for not making production. I can’t even retain one of my students when they don’t meet minimum requirements for their grade level. I can’t fire any of my students when they are involved in illegal activities on the job site. I can’t fire any of my students when they undermine the work place. I am held to a standard that very few people could even pretend to follow, because I am a teacher and I am supposed to be that way. I am supposed to know something about everything - does your boss expect that from you? If I were proposing toasts over the success of our great work year I would lose my job, because we aren’t supposed to do that. When was the last time you went to a restaurant and wondered if one of your students saw you drink a beer? Just a few things and there are many more - but you know what? I love what I do - and wouldn’t want to do anything else. I knew all of the above things going in and I was up to the challenge.

I challenge any of the people in this forum that give teachers a hard time to follow us around for a few days and watch what we have to do and you might find that we aren’t the burden on the State of Georgia’s society many of you think we are.

By Laura

December 23, 2005 11:29 AM | Link to this

Robert,

Too late. I already took my son out of public school and put him in private (at $17k/year). It was 3 years ago. I had to. He was in 2nd grade reading at a kindergarten level. His 2nd grade teacher was fired mid year because she taped a kid’s mouth shut and locked him in the storeroom. This was a top rated elementary school in the state. It was supposed to be an “easy to teach” population (mostly white upper middle class). In reality, the place was chaos. Now that he is in private and I have experienced the difference, I realized public is even worse than I thought when we were in it. I still am very interested in education issues though. Sometimes I have survivor guilt.

By frustrated

December 23, 2005 01:19 PM | Link to this

It is my first year teaching. I teach ninth grade in a low-income, metro county. I did not enter the teaching field to get rich. However, that doesn’t mean I (and other teachers) don’t deserve a salary commensurate (even partially) with the gargantuan task we take on day after day. With the way the schools are now, I seriously doubt that I would send my kids to public schools, and it hurts to say that. I believe Georgia’s schools could be much better than they are, but it’s hard when you have teachers and students that are afterthoughts when it comes to so many aspects of education.

For those who say teachers who are unsatisfied with the pay should switch professions, I have one question for you. If every teacher who needed more money left the classroom, who would be left to teach YOUR children?

By SPED

December 23, 2005 01:24 PM | Link to this

Merit pay—who decides if I have earned a pay increase. Of the 27 different HS Sped students I teach PER day (some twice per day) one has learned their addess at age 17! Is that as much value as Chemistry, French, Chorus, etc? What do you think? Would you say I have “earned” a raise?

In many states Sped teachers get 20% bonus pay and someone does the paperwork so they can teach. I spend about 35% of the day teaching. The rest? Discipline, solving the problem of 3-4 students of a class of 8 who refuse to bring paper or pencil, and STUFF someone wants for the 4th time this school year. I do not furnish paper or pencil, but I will when the school provides it for me. Many teachers spend their own money. I spent more than $2,000 in the 2004 tax year.

I am a very Highly Qualified Sp Ed teacher (K-12) with all the core content areas. GA has never required Sped teachers to be qualified in any content subject. If you think there is a Sped teacher shortage—wait until 2006-2007 school year. About 20% of the 14,000 or so Sped teachers in the state are acually certified to teach a subject (or grade—where you must be an authority at ALL subjects). Most states have required this for years. To teach a class of 3rd grade Sped students only, you must be certified to teach that grade. HS Sped teacher assigned to teach a small group will need to be certified in every subect they teach~~if not, will they have a job next year? No Child Left Behind demands students have a qualified teacher—isn’t it about time? 2006-2007 school year.

Average teacher pay includes administration. If you just used teacher pay, you would see the average is much lower. As a 4th generation teacher, I knew there was lots of work. Elem K-5 teachers have duty free lunch of 30 min. In the late 70s and early 80s I worked hard with many others to make that happen. Coweta Co had it in 1978-1979 school year before it was required. Yet, it is amazing how many Elem teachers don’t get 30 min of lunch alone—it is not because the administration does not know—just trying to get more work out of you.

One of the Education bills for this coming Legislature is duty free 30 min lunch for all teachers. School systems are opposing it—says it will cost too much money. Isn’t it sad to think teachers have so little value that getting 30 min for lunch is something to “beg and lobby politicians” and convince them we need time to eat.

By lynn d

December 23, 2005 01:40 PM | Link to this

In Georgia, children are undervalued. Without a doubt, we should have a teacher pay scale that would attract the best (not just the rest) to teaching and we certainly need to pay caseworkers more.

I often tell people that we are getting what we pay for. Go visit public schools in areas with significantly higher property taxes — those students are getting a better education than our children not only (or maybe not mostly) because the teachers have higher salaries but because those systems have resources like people to handle some of the paperwork required of the teachers, better and more plentiful programs for troubled children and other resources that support the teachers. Not to metion extras like art, music, foreign language that also serve to give teachers a break to do planning.

By Laura

December 23, 2005 01:54 PM | Link to this

I like the idea of giving the teachers secretaries to handle the paperwork. Maybe 1 secretary for every 3 teachers or something like that.

By Ernest

December 23, 2005 01:55 PM | Link to this

Lynn_D says it all with this statement: I often tell people that we are getting what we pay for. The question is how much are citizens in GA willing to pay? It’s amazing when I talk to friends in the NE corridor about what they pay in property taxes compared to mine. Could anyone imagine paying 12-15K a year for an 1800 sq foot house?

By Lee

December 23, 2005 02:32 PM | Link to this

To the comment “…you get what you pay for.”

This is the crux of the problem, we taxpayers are not getting what we paid for. A common misconception is that to improve something, you throw more money at it. The problem is not that we are spending too little, it is that we are spending the money in the wrong places. Too often, I see million dollar football stadiums while the teachers have to go around to businesses begging for donations for supplies. One of the posters gave a web address for each county’s salaries. I looked through it and saw where we are paying Librarians $65k per year and In School Suspension teachers (i.e. a job created for a coach) $68k per year. We have too many paper pushers in central office making roughly twice the salary of teachers. We have too many Assistant Principals.

I could go on and on…. you get my drift.

Teachers, textbooks, and classrooms. That should be the core mission of any school system. Too bad we have strayed from that simple formula….

By Wes Odell

December 23, 2005 02:50 PM | Link to this

www.audits.state.ga.us/internet/ead/SalaryandTravelLEAs.html Nice website to check out teachers salaries above!

I personally know some teachers who are so called teachers/assistant principal who makes around 70K a year. The person who I am speaking about barely graduated college and was on Academic Probation, now he has his Masters in Special ED. and makes pretty decent money. I think a lot of teachers up here in NORTH Georgia, make more than the average working individual. They attend a no name school to receive their Masters and Specialist Degrees to get more cash. I personally think the good teachers need to be rewarded not on Retired/Working Folks property tax increases. I would suggest the that the teachers neeed to be tested in their field of expertise to determine they get a raise, if they fail the test no raise. I am tired of hearing about all these degrees and titles by their name and half of them up here struggle to write in complete sentences like me. I think the profession is overrated and look how our state ranks no excuses for being near the bottom with the top pay in Southeast.

WES

By C.R.H.

December 23, 2005 03:11 PM | Link to this

To bad we don’t have a little test for “parents as parents” so we could compare what a great job parents in GA are doing compared to other parents in other states. Sort of like an SAT for parenting I’ll bet GA would score around 49th in that category too! Would the ALC be so fast in reproting that information? Would legislatures pass laws like “NCLB for parents”? How neat, if a parent isn’t making AYP, the student can move in with a better set of parents. I like it!

By Wes Odell

December 23, 2005 03:20 PM | Link to this

Its funny how teachers always want to blame the parents. I think teachers and preachers should get together and figure out how to raise their incomes both seem to constantly be griping about their net worth not being enough. I suggest calling the WAMBULANCE!…

WES

By C.R.H.

December 23, 2005 03:28 PM | Link to this

As far as teachers blaming anyone….”if you ain’t part of the solution, you’re part of the problem!” If all you want as a parent is to put your head in the sand when you are told there is an issue and you don’t deal with it OR if you insist that your little angel gets whatever he/she wants (because thats how you do things as a parent) than you are certainly part of the problem. As a teacher I see many parents like those I just described and it always seems their children are the ones failing, not prepared or just simply are too lazy to make an effort. I would just like to see parents held to the fire for things they are responsible for, Be a damn parent of don’t procreate!

By Wes Odell

December 23, 2005 03:35 PM | Link to this

C.R.H. spend your time off looking for a new job if you don’t like your current profession.
The old saying goes those who can’t TEACH!

WES

By Tiffany

December 23, 2005 03:44 PM | Link to this

If parents spent as much time teaching their children at home as they do in the stores spending hundreds of dollars on toys on Christmas, Georgia would not have the issue of being a intelligence challenged state…Teachers should be expanding on what parent’s have already taught children at HOME.

By C.R.H.

December 23, 2005 03:44 PM | Link to this

Just joined the blog huh wes? If you actually read the entire blog you would know that this is my last year of teaching, after 9 years of teaching I will be taking a new job in research (microbiology). I get to move up into the 6 figure salary bracket. See education does pay!

By Wes Odell

December 23, 2005 03:49 PM | Link to this

Good deal on the 6 figures, I made that right out of the Terry College of Business school. I apologize it took you this long to achieve that status, I should be retired by the time I am 45. I am currently 33, so I am proud you have moved away from the Public School Sector to a real career..Congrats,

Wes

By C.R.H.

December 23, 2005 03:52 PM | Link to this

Yeah, congrats to you to Wes. 6 figures Right out of business school huh? I have some former students at Terry (Go Dawgs) who will be thrilled to be starting at that salary. I sure hope they can find jobs!

By Karen Armsby

December 26, 2005 08:11 AM | Link to this

Wes, Since you are apparently new to this blog, let me catch you up on a few things; one, most of us have agreed throughout a variety of blog topics that parents must be positively involved with their children and work in cooperation with the teachers in order for the students to have a better chance for success; two, life is not just about money, which probably comes as a shock to you, but it’s true; and three, civility and kindness and discussing the issues, not personal attacks on the bloggers, will get your point across more effectively. BTW, these tips will also work for you in your business career. Good Luck!

By Jeff

December 26, 2005 09:43 AM | Link to this

Wes,

Let me take a stab at explaining teaching to ya (and this comes from working in the private sector at ALL levels - basic crewman all the way up to being the Southeast Regional Manager of a national corporation):

Private sector: You go to work, deal with the boss, sit in meetings doing nothing for a few hours a day. With the few judgements that you have to make, if you’re wrong you MIGHT recieve a written reprimand. At most you have to deal with MAYBE 50 people in a day, and you can assume a certain basic level of knowledge in all of them. (Even if its not YOUR level, you can be fairly safe in assuming some common level as a baseline.) Your coworkers are expected to be professionals and leave their personal lives at the car. Though you may have more than one boss, their is almost always a clear chain of command, and you can go to your immediate supervisor with any questions. You generally get some amount of time to eat/ go to the restroom, and any project you are required to do you often have time to plan it during business hours. Your salary and benefits are your private business and it is considered rude to ask about them/ scrutinize them. Your private life is just that - your private life.

Teaching: We go to work and are instantly confronted with about 160+ problems demanding our instant attention. If we deal with any of these problems wrong, we could face instant termination (and in light of the on going school violence problems, I’m not just talking being fired there - there is a genuine risk of death if you offend some wacko parent). Of the 150+ people we deal with every day, there probabaly exist at least 5 major education level differences, and the differences among the students can be severe in the extreme (such as having - in the 9th grade math class, for example - a student or two who can barely add 1 + 2 AND a student or two who can perform advanced calculus operations in their heads). While the paid professionals we work with are expected to leave their personal lives in the car (and many of us succeed) some don’t, and the students (also our coworkers) never do. While we have a direct chain of command, through the department heads, assistant principals, and principal, parents OFTEN feel that they can come in and make demands on us as well, and often our chain of command allows this. So in effect, we have roughly 150 immediate supervisors. Of the paid professionals who are in our official chain of command, often is the case that few know how to answer any questions that we have and even those who do rarely have the time, as they themselves are just as overworked as we are. Depending on where you work, you may or may not LITERALLY get any time to eat/ go to the restroom, as you are expected to be in your classroom or in meetings literally all day long. The vast majority of our planning happens either at home or after the end of our business day, when we should have been able to leave. As has been noted several times in this blog and others, our salary and benefits are public knowledge and are in many cases given more scrutiny than the FBI/NSA/CIA/DIA gives people seeking SSI clearance (the highest security clearance possible in tis country). And as for private life? If ONE of my students sees me having a beer AT ALL - or even HEARS that I had a beer - I could be fired. (Do YOU have to go two counties away after work for a beer, even then to be sitting against the back wall to make sure none of your students sees you there?) And that’s just a beer! I can get fired for getting a speeding ticket. For having sex before I’m married! For going into an adult store! In some cases, I can even get fired for going to the wrong church or dating a woman with a different skin tone than mine! (And don’t even get me started on “alternative sexualities”. I’m str8, but I have a few gay friends that are teachers, and they have it FAR rougher than even me!

OK, sorry for the long rant. Just hope it gives ya SOME idea of how infuriating your comments are.

By Lee

December 26, 2005 10:15 AM | Link to this

Wes / CRH:

I hate to bring this up while ya’ll are having your “Mine is bigger than yours” debate, but when we talk about a six figure salary, we are usually refering to the amount to the left of the decimal point.

Carry on kids, ya’ll play nice…

By C.R.H.

December 26, 2005 11:21 AM | Link to this

I was counting the digits to the left of the decimal point Lee! I brought up the salary issue becuase it is THE ISSUE, if people were really concerned about getting/keeping the best and brightest maybe think about paying them what they’re worth. Math and science (and SPED) departments are struggling to fill positions. Having said that, I restate my earlier comment about getting out even if they did raise the pay…teaching and all the garbage that goes with it has made the job unbearable (for many of the reasons that were just cited by Jeff). I can hardly wait until I no longer have to decide if I want to go eat lunch or go to the bathroom! Not enough time to do both because I have to move from one classroom to another and make sure that everything is ready for the next group that comes in. Not to mention no more parents insisting that I curve grades so their little honey can get the HOPE scholarship that most students haven’t earned!

By Wes Odell

December 26, 2005 12:52 PM | Link to this

www.audits.state.ga.us/internet/ead/SalaryandTravelLEAs.html

Check out link above to view teachers salaries.. I am so sorry to ruffle so many teacher feathers. If you guys and gals don’t like what you make or teaching find a new career simple as that…

WES

By C.R.H.

December 26, 2005 01:04 PM | Link to this

We have seen that link several times (in this blog and many others). It would be more accurate if they would also post the degrees and number of years in service along with the pay! And many teachers ARE leaving to move into other careers, teaching has one of the highest attrition rates of any profession, I have seen many numbers tossed around so I am not sure which is accurate. I would say it is likely that at least 25-30% of all new teachers leave the profession within 3 years and close to 50% leave within 5 years of service.

By Debbie

December 26, 2005 01:04 PM | Link to this

I always thought I made a decent salary..I made it to 40,000 finally! But, as a new widow, I would never survive in the Atlanta area if it wasn’t for a supplement from the VA (my husband was a disabled veteran). As it stands, I doubt I can buy a home, unless I want to commute a great distance. All the time off is a misconception. We aren’t paid for those days. Our checks are prorated. I need the respite. I work at a tough school and my days are spent dealing with severe behavior disorders..many children whose parents never bothered to have their kids diagnosed with disabilities that now are so severe that these kids have little chance of success, let alone passing the Georgia exit tests. My holidays are spent spending energy on my own family and regrouping myself to return to a classroom where I am expected to perform miracles!

By Britt

December 26, 2005 02:14 PM | Link to this

There should be a base salary for a teacher starting out and in order to get a raise, excluding going back for an advanced degree, the teacher should be evaluated from all aspects and given a raise based on how well they teach. There are great teachers out there still and it seems that not many of them are recognized anymore due to the fact the students of my day are only going to college as an education major because they think they will get summers off and be paid well enough. It’s no longer because they want to help children and make an impact on someone’s life. Maybe pay based on how well of a teacher you are will make people open their eyes.

By faye

December 26, 2005 02:48 PM | Link to this

Wes - Matthew and Never Been There were commenting (you might call it whining) on the length of their work day - why haven’t you told them to find a new profession yet? Oh, yeah, because they have “real” jobs and are not the easy targets that teachers are.

By the way, the espression is, “Those that can’t do, teach” - not that I agree with it, but you might as well quote it right, particularly if your purpose was to stir things up and insult teachers further.

Scuse Me - I’m surprised that such a proud Ayn Rand-type producer such as yourself would advocate the formation of a union in our lovely right-to-work state. And, if the teachers on the blog are “whining” when they explain their rationale for being deserving of a raise (or at least trying to dispel the myth of sitting around at a cushy job all day), then why aren’t Matthew and Never Been There “whining” as well? Oh, yeah, they’re not. They are simply clarifying a myth. Hmmm.

On topic - due to the nature of the job -lack of control over the “raw materials” and “finished product” - it’s very difficult to determine a fair way of doing merit pay. If we do want the best and brightest for our children, though, then we need to really evaluate what we pay these people or they will “change professions” as so many of you advocate, and we’ll be left with the ones too lazy to do even that. Is that what you want? I know I don’t.

By Bill

December 26, 2005 02:55 PM | Link to this

Come on.. What a great job. My wife (15 years in in Dekalb County) makes over 75K a year.. works only 189 days a year (like working 3/4 of a job) has all but $40/month in a great health care plan paid for, and when she retires will get 70% of her top salary FOR LIFE! (On top of that she pays NO SOCIAL SECURITY TAX - LIKE A 7% RAISE EVERY YEAR). Just like ANY job.. you have to work for a while and increase your education to get more $$.. but anyone who thinks that this is a bad job has never had to work for a living.

By luvs2teach

December 26, 2005 03:21 PM | Link to this

Wow, Bill - I guess I’m in the wrong county. I DO pay Social Security AND Teacher’s Retirement (as well as a 403b, but that’s optional), and I will have 50% of the average of my last three years pay when I retire. My contract year is 192 days. I pay $245 for family coverage for the CHEAPEST HMO option, and an additional $40 for dental, and a couple bucks for ST disability and vision. This is my 7th years of teaching and I make $38,500 with a BS - I am working on my Master’s - I will get aproximately $5,000 more per year when I complete it. I wouldn’t look at the lack of SS deductions too fondly though - she won’t be eligible to draw either, unless she draws as your spouse at a reduced rate, I believe.

(Wes, Scuse Me, Matthew, abc, and others - I’m not whining! I’m putting this out there for comparision purposes only; please don’t use this against me).

Is your wife an administrator? Does she have Master’s or Doctorate? Or does Dekalb County just offer more money? What grade level does she teach? Does she have a Specialist Degree and a special position like ILT? How much work does your wife take home?

I am offended by your “never had to work for a living” comment, however; that’s the type of crap that gets me “defensive” as some on the blog have pointed out. I work very hard, and I love my job - maybe your wife is just a lucky slacker who gives the rest of us a bad name? Or, maybe you just never see how much work she actually does? I’m not trying to be insulting in return; I’m just not sure what brought on that negative part of your post.

I would LOVE to hear from other brave souls - how does Bill’s wife’s pay match up?

By C.R.H.

December 26, 2005 03:24 PM | Link to this

Bill, how long has your wife been teaching, how many degrees? And Dekalb only makes employees pay $40 of their health? I pay over $81 for my health/dental insurance (only single not family coverage). She must be on your insurance and is paying the $40 surcharge?!? I wasn’t aware that Dekalb doesn’t take FICA…your wife isn’t entitled to any SS benefits when she retires (unless she has some credits from other jobs). Some school districts don’t pay into FICA as a way to compete with other school districts (you get to take home more of what you earn) and it saves the district $$$ because they don’t have to pay in either. If it is such a great gig, how come YOU are posting how “wonderful & easy” she has it instead of her?

By luvs2teach

December 26, 2005 03:51 PM | Link to this

I tried to access my county’s pay schedule (all counties are online, by the way - just do a google search - don’t look at averages on some state audit site; look at the actual salary schedules in some of the different counties - it’s enlightening).

Anyway, I don’t know what you wife does, Bill, but I don’t think she’s a teacher. According to the Dekalb Salary schedule, the maximum pay for a teacher with 15 years experience and and Doctorate is $69, 600. Specialist is $63, 696; Master’s is $58, 248, and a Bachelor’s is $52, 716.

What I found VERY interesting is that a STARTING teacher in Dekalb makes $38, 400 - nearly what I make in my county after 7 years. I’m not complaining though; the cost of living and quality of life in my county make up the difference.

Realize when a statistic(one of the three types of lies BTW, along with lies and damn lies) states an AVERAGE you will have numbers both above and below that number.

By Jeff

December 26, 2005 04:23 PM | Link to this

As I often tell my stats classes (more often tutoring though, as I RARELY teach stats): Numbers don’t lie. Not even statistics. But they can be misrepresented, particularly statistics. Average is one of the EASIEST stats to misrepresent, and it is hard to know the actual FACTS without also knowing the standard deviation. Does anyone happen to know what the stddev is for the teacher salary? With THAT number I (or any decent math teacher for that matter) could give you a MUCH more acurate depiction of salary issues facing GA teachers…

By Teach1Each1

December 26, 2005 04:47 PM | Link to this

I feel that teachers are way underpaid. Yes, we do get the summers off, but most of us are in some kind of workshops for the next school year. Even though school ends before most work day ends, that does not mean that we are done. We often call parents, grade papers, and plans lessons at home. I feel that teachers should be paid on the same salary as doctor,since we are expected to save the lives of our students.

By mjd1

December 26, 2005 05:38 PM | Link to this

The topic is teachers’ salaries and whether teachers are adequately compensated based on their education, their job duties and responsibilities, and the amount of time they put in on a yearly basis. Anyone who thinks the compensation is adequate: (1) has not set foot in a classroom since he/she graduated from high school; (2) failed math and is still unable to perform minimal calculations based on number of hours actually put in each week and year, education and responsibilities; or (3) is laboring under a dangerous misperception about salaries and compensation packages in all professions. When I left teaching in 1980 to return to the corporate world (and, incidentally, doubled my salary in a year), I actually added up the number of hours I had spent on performing my teaching job and attending required meetings, workshops, staff development sessions, and summer courses (which I paid for) each year. To my complete astonishment, I found I had never even made the minimum hourly wage.

Bill, to you in particular, I am so glad I am not married to jerk like you who thinks so little of women and makes pompous, self-serving statements such as “never had to work for a living.” I don’t know what you do for a living—and I really don’t want to know—but I can make an educated guess that whatever it is, you are paid not on the basis of your brains, training or abilities as a people person. Instead, I’m quite certain you were hired: (a) because you were a male (and a very chauvinistic one at that), (b) that you have a minimal education (who else would make such a ridiculously stupid statement on a public forum), and (c) that you are a complete bully in the workplace as you must surely be at home.

To return to our topic, teachers do not make an adequate salary based on their education, responsibilities or time. Anyone who thinks differently and tries to sugarcoat their responses with such phrases as “they love their professions� does not have both feet on the ground or lives on another planet. There are a jillion ways to rationalize and distort the truth when we don’t want to face it, but all the rationalizations in the world will not make a false statement true. For all the passion inherent in those who have dedicated themselves to education, there is no substitute for the reality of a decent salary when a teacher shops for a home, a car, a winter coat, or goes to the grocery store. I haven’t noticed any doctors or dentists giving a discount to teachers because of this passion, and I don’t know of any clubs, after-school activities for kids, babysitters, day care centers, etc. who give discounts. The bottom line is that teachers, for all their passion and altruistic community spirit, have to earn a living just like anyone else. Just as any other adult in our society expects, teachers should be able to earn adequate compensation based on education, personal qualifications, work ethic, responsibilities, duties and hours put in, not on the basis of high-minded dedication and passion.

By scuse me

December 27, 2005 08:49 AM | Link to this

Once again I’ll ask;

When the hell you going to stop whining and do something about it?

Let me just thow out a scenario. Say just 50% of Teachers refuse to work for what they are currently being paid.

What they going to do? fire y’all?

I think NOT!!

So who’s fault is it? parents and the public or teachers?

By jim dumond

December 27, 2005 09:07 AM | Link to this

I must agree.

For such a large group of educated people, techers don’t fully grasp that they hold all the cards. Should they decide not to work for their current wages schools would be scrambling to fill positions and with what amounts nationally to a huge teacher shortage already, schools would have to close or negotiate.

I think teachers worry too much about image. Too bad professional athletes and school adminstrators don’t.

By Lee

December 27, 2005 09:35 AM | Link to this

CRH commented earlier on the high attrition rates of teachers. Here are a few of my observations about attrition:

1) Teacher pay. Yes, it does factor into it. Case in point, why should a HS Chemistry teacher work for $35k when they can be a Pharmacy Rep for $65-75k?

2) Lack of support for new teachers. Depending on the school, many first year teachers are thrown into a classroom with little or no support. To top it off, they are often given the “classroom from h3ll”, you know, the behavior problems, discipline problems, low acheivers, etc. etc. When I started to work years ago in the “real world”, I worked under the direction of a senior for about two years before I lead a project.

3) Lack of opportunity for advancement. You’re a teacher. Unless you move into administration, you will be a teacher until the day you retire. It’s sorta like a perverse version of the movie “Groundhog Day,” except in this case, each August you start the same routine over - only the names of the students have changed. In my world, I’ve worked for the same company for 30 years, but I’ve held about 10 different job titles. Some were lateral moves, some were promotions. So on average, about every 3 years, I get to try something new. To me, this may be the biggest factor. A new teacher looks at one of the “grizzled veteran” teachers and says “no way I’m doing this for the next 35 years.”

4) Educrats. Politicians and administration keep piling on more and more red tape. Less time actually spent teaching.

So, there are a few of my observations from the perspective of a non-teacher - whose wife and daughter both teach.

By Jeff

December 27, 2005 10:10 AM | Link to this

Lee,

As someone still looking to get back in to teaching, I must say that of the factors you mentioned, by FAR my biggest issues are 2 and 4, with 4 being far and above the biggest. I’ve ALREADY seen how much damage the educraps (taking your word and modifying) do to my personal teaching and teaching in general, and honestly it is the single biggest worry I have, for one reason: I’m too damn honest. I don’t read people very well. Combine those last two statements and you can see why me and politics don’t get along so well! :)

As far as first year support: from what I’ve seen, what litle “support” exists is there to indoctrinate the same way student teaching does. Its not there to help a new teacher with ideas or issues, but more to say “This is how it has to be done because this is the way its always been done”. The whole idea of “best practices” is a load of crap. What works in my classroom may not work in yours and vice cersa, due to my personality, your personality, and most of all our students’ personalities. I’m a firm believer that students should adapt to their teachers, but I also beleive that teachers should try to accomodate students as much as they can without conforming or coddling. (For example, I genuinely try to find out what is important to my students and use that to teach them math. I’m ALWAYS prepared for what I plan to teach, yet I don’t have a script. I have a few notes and the numerical examples I intend to use, and that’s it. I know of some teachers, however, that fully prepare a script and DO NOT deviate from it. I find those teachers incredibly boring - I did as a student and still do - yet most of the teachers I’ve seen do that are National Board certified and have 15+ years of experience, so what they do is considered “best practices”. SOOO frustrating!!!!)

OK, so I know I complain a lot… I gotta find a job so I’ll have something to do rather than sit here and vent!! :)

By abc

December 27, 2005 10:14 AM | Link to this

If the chemistry teacher can double his salary by changing professions, why not? That certainly doesn’t indicate he’s worth more salary as a teacher. That was my point: if a teacher is dissatisfied with their salary, they have the same options as anyone else does, namely to go get a different job. Would you prefer to simply complain instead?

By Jeff

December 27, 2005 10:37 AM | Link to this

abc,

if all the teachers who complained about their pay left for a higher paying private sector job, as you promote, there would be VERY FEW teachers to teach your little darlings. (FOr example: Teaching, 1st year salary: roughly 30,000. Computer Science field private sector job (my degree): minimum of around 40,000, and depending on the job I could be looking at 60,000 or even higher FIRST YEAR.) However, I, like most teachers, know that teaching is our calling. So we’ll tolerate the low pay, figure out a way to scrounge up enough money to live, put up with all the things we’ve been talking about here, because at the end of the day, we know we are exactly where we’re supposed to be.

By Kage

December 27, 2005 10:47 AM | Link to this

There’s an interesting solution to teacher pay on edweek.org: increase class size thereby increasing teacher pay. The article is here. I’m not sure I agree with it…I’m trying to picture the exponential behavior problems my classroom would have if the 100 third graders at my school were divided between three teachers instead of four. Yikes.

I like the outside-of-the-box thinking of this proposal, though. It seems that, with the new requirements for special ed teachers, most schools are headed towards collaborative teaching. If many classrooms are going to have two teachers anyway - in order to facilitate collaborative models - then perhaps this proposal makes sense.

By Lee

December 27, 2005 10:57 AM | Link to this

ABC, The point is that we are experiencing a critical shortage in certain fields. Like it or not, schools have to compete in the marketplace to attract and retain employees in these fields. In order to do so, I see no alternative other than offering supplements to teachers in these critical fields.

In general, I think teacher’s salaries are low. However, there is no outside pressure on school systems to raise salaries because in most cases, there is no other jobs requiring the type of degrees that most teachers have (ie., not much you can do with an Early Childhood, History, English, etc degree except teach).

By Carrie

December 27, 2005 10:57 AM | Link to this

Jobs in the corporate world are so much easier than anything teachers have to do. I make over $100K/year and rarely work over 40 hours a week. And those of you who are such hard workers and have to put in over 50 hours a week…blah, blah, blah… probably surf the internet and chat (ie bother) co-workers all day so you have to stay late to get your job done. Teachers are underpaid because they have to have more education than most of their corporate counterparts and they have to continually update their education. When they are at work from 7am - 5pm everyday they are actually WORKING the entire time and still have to work from home in order to do a good job. In addition to all of that they have to deal with unruly children and even unrulier parents.

By Martha

December 27, 2005 10:58 AM | Link to this

I am a veteran teacher, 30+ years. I love my job. Thank goodness, I do not depend on it as my sole source of income or I would have gotten out long ago. I told my children if they majored in education, I would disown them. Teachers get no respect, no say so in their salary, very little support from admin (in most cases) and are constantly under attack from everyone.

Many, many teachers coming into the field are poorly qualified and unmotivated. They ARE there for a paycheck and nothing else. Some of these people can’t speak correct English, do basic math, etc., but they are teachers, nonetheless. It is getting to the point that I am ashamed to say I am a teacher, and I am ashamed to admit that.

I don’t know the answer, I wish I did. Better pay will help, I think. More support for classroom teachers. Pay the really GOOD classroom teachers and keep them there. Admins don’t have to be good teachers, they don’t TEACH! The teachers who are not so good…support them and try to help them become better. If that doesn’t work, get rid of them. Why keep an unproductive person?

By luvs2teach

December 27, 2005 11:10 AM | Link to this

Scuse Me and abc - do you REALLY think that teachers would garner the type of support needed to have a strike or walk-out of the magnitude Scuse Me advocates work?

Having lived in states with teacher’s unions, and witnessing the public reaction to strikes, I don’t. The public rarely supports strikers (pilots, cops, nurses, transit workers - you name it), particularly if the strike is seen as an inconvenience to the public (and believe me, 50% of all teachers walking out would be mighty inconvenient).

The public would rather refer to these people as whiners (and tell me that if all teachers DID go on strike, that you two wouldn’t react to the coverage with “I don’t know what they’re complaining about - why don’t they just find new jobs!”).

I lived near an FAA building in the 80s when Reagan fired them all and hired new. I watched the dismal NFL strike season. People can be replaced (hey, maybe that recently down-sized pharm rep would be happy with my cushy, secure, summers-off, terrific benefits, job). I don’t think strikes are effective in this day and age.

As I have said beforeI knew what I was getting into. I’m not unhappy (with the job - public perception BLOWS, however). Are there pros and cons? Sure - but there is in EVERYTHING When I get to the point that I know longer love what I do, I will change jobs - I’ve done it before, I’ll do it again. That doesn’t mean that I shouldn’t come here and share my thoughts, experiences, and perceptions until that time arrives.

And, Scuse Me, since you got on me for not answering your question (which I did, prior to your post, but I guess you didn’t read it), why did’nt you answer mine - how come no one tell the Coporate America types who post here that they work more than 40 hours a week to find a new job? How come no one tells them to quit whining?

By Lana

December 27, 2005 11:26 AM | Link to this

scuse me -

If 50% of teachers went on strike, and the other 50% went out and found “real” jobs - who would teach the children?

Have you actually thought your “plan” through, or are you just trying to stir the pot again?

By C.R.H.

December 27, 2005 11:30 AM | Link to this

I didn’t read the article but the idea of increasing class size as a means to increase teacher pay is not going to work. Class sizes HAVE been increased. The maximum size for science lab courses was 28, I think it is now 32 (it may be higher). This is a HUGE liability issue. Imagine a few 14 year olds finding new and creative things to do with Bunson burners in a crowded science lab while the teacher is trying to assist a group on the other side of the classroom. The politicians may increase class sizes but I know they will not bother to increase teacher pay, it is a money-saving strategy.

By Naoni

December 27, 2005 11:51 AM | Link to this

Yes, teachers need a raise, teachers should be at least making $55,000 a year. I’m not a teacher, but I know that they wear so many hats, including teacher, counselor and parent for 8 hours a day. Also most teachers have to take their work home with them.

By luvs2teach

December 27, 2005 12:14 PM | Link to this

Ooops - “didn’t” - total typo, not a spelling mistake, but since that’s one of my pet peeves, I figured I’d correct myself before the grammar police got me.

CRH - congratulations on the job change. I wish you good luck :-)

On the subject of the transit strike - do you realize that other unions did not strike in solidarity? Did you also realize that when people found out that the “average transit worker” made something in the $60s and the “average New Yorker” made something in the $40s that any support they might have had was GONE! Do you think the MCDonald’s worker making $7.50 an hour is really going to support a teacher making $38, 500 - particularly when it’s the worker’s child who now has no teacher?

Strikes are no longer the effective weapon they may have been in the 40s and 50s. Next solution, please!

By luvs2teach

December 27, 2005 12:30 PM | Link to this

BTW - failure to fulfill your teaching contract is grounds for losing your license. Losing it one state can put you in jeopardy of getting it in another state. Since this is a right-to-work state (and we have neither union nor tenure), teachers who strike run a significantly greater risk than merely losing “image.”

abc - the point isn’t that the teacher is worth what the chemist gets paid. The point is that the competitive salary is what draws highly qualified people AWAY from teaching and towards other, higher paying professions. You have to decide for yourself (as I did) whether the lower pay is worth the benefits of a personally meaningful job (teaching may not be personally meaningful to everyone). A higher salary drew me away until I couldn’t deny the fact any longer - I wanted to teach - despite the pay, despite the public perception, despite the problems. Not all chemists make good teachers either - we had a new teacher two years ago who wanted to apply what he did in his lab to teaching. He hoped to enrich the lives of his students with the wonder of chemistry so they could see how it applied to their everyday lives. He lasted THREE WEEKS. Teachers do get out, all the time. Next time you’re checking average pay for teachers, you should also check on attrition rates for the job.

By Valery

December 27, 2005 01:33 PM | Link to this

Yes, teachers are under paid. However, only the teachers that are deserving should have higher pay. There should be a tier that will pay based on success of children learning and tenure.

By Leia

December 27, 2005 02:25 PM | Link to this

Valery - what constitutes “success of children learning”? I teach some students who would be fine with just a textbook and no teacher! I also teach some students who have the academic aptitude of a small hamster. If you use your method - who would volunteer to teach the lower-level students?

By scuse me

December 28, 2005 09:38 AM | Link to this

Some of y’all never cease to amaze me.(you know who you are)

GRIPE,GRIPE,GRIPE.

Why not do something? Well, something else.

By scuse me

December 28, 2005 09:43 AM | Link to this

Oh, and luvs2teach.

The corporate types posting here aren’t complaining about their salaries. They generally do SOMETHING about it when they aren’t satisfied with working conditions.

Teachers? Well that appears to be a whole nuther story.

By C.R.H.

December 28, 2005 10:53 AM | Link to this

scuse me…in case you haven’t noticed teachers have been doing something. Remember Roy Barnes? Got in office with the overwhelming support of educators and got booted out with overwhelming support of educators. The attrition rate also is a strong statement about “teachers doing something”. Nothing like letting the door slam behind you to make the big statement.

By scuse me

December 28, 2005 11:04 AM | Link to this

Sure do, Recall Joe Framk Harris and Zell Miller as well. Y’all haven’t done too well have you.

Maybe you should try something else

So why don’t y’all just softly close the door collectively to get political and public attention?

Teachers do infact weild a great deal of political power—Me thinks you could publicly as well if you’d step out and take it.

By C.R.H.

December 28, 2005 02:18 PM | Link to this

I didn’t vote for either of those 2, LOL. Teachers generally don’t consider themselves politicians. And it also seems that politicians aren’t educators either. I would rather just walk away and do something that makes me happier. I think some teachers are feeling the same way…tired of trying to change “the system”, it is certainly broken but we can’t seem to get it fixed.

By scuse me

December 28, 2005 02:28 PM | Link to this

Unfortunately, teachers don’t consider themselves a necessary part of society.

When they step up and realize the power they actually have, then and only then will things get better.

Will that take a bit of moxey? You betcha!

They will need to stop being concerned about image and become determined to deliver what they KNOW is the best education money can buy and tell the politicans of kiss off.

Hey, y’all’s stock would skyrocket in my opinion.

By Natosha

December 28, 2005 02:58 PM | Link to this

I am a middle school teacher. In addition to my teaching duties, I am a secretary, nurse, counselor, mediator, and mother. I take care of 165 13- 14 year olds everyday. In addition to teaching them language arts and reading, I have to teach manners, self - respect, respect for the rights and property of others, etc. I begin my work day at 7:45 or earlier and it officialy ends at 4:15, but I am never home before 6! I work weekends, nights, holidays, and summers. There are days that I am with my students all day - no break, not even to go to the restroom. I can’t earn overtime and I don’t get any bonuses. All of this is expected of me and I am in trouble if I miss filling out one of the one million and one forms that are thrown at me daily. Any one who does not feel that I and my collegues whether middle, high, or elementary teachers don’t need a raise, come and do our job for one week. I promise you that you will not make it until Friday.

By luvs2teach

December 29, 2005 11:11 AM | Link to this

Scuse Me - “The corporate types posting here aren’t complaining about their salaries.[and neither was I, BTW] They generally do SOMETHING about it when they aren’t satisfied with working conditions.”

You know that’s BS. Do a google search for “blogs Corporate America” and look at the wide variety of hits and read some of the selections.

IMHO, martyrdom and complaining are America’s past times regardless of profession.

I looked up teacher attrition rates and found out some interesting and disturbing trends:

Younger teachers leave more frequently that older teachers.

Inexperienced teachers leave more frequently than experienced teachers.

Surprisingly (to me, anyway), PRIVATE school teachers left the profession at almost twice the rate of public school teachers.

Special Ed teachers leave faster than any other subject.

Teachers at lower-performing schools leave more frequently than higher-performing schools.

Teachers in the HIGHER quartiles of college entrance exams leave faster than those in the lowest quartile - that’s a fact that should worry every concerned parent out there! Where are they going? Higher paying public sector jobs.

Attrition refers only to those who leave the profession completely. In a survey conducted in 94-95, only 5 percent of those leaving teaching completely stated “dissatisfaction with the career” as a reason.

Turnover refers to teachers transferring to new districts or school, which is what I (and many, many others) did last year. If I worked in pharmaceutical sales and wanted to change jobs, I would go to another company. I don’t see much difference between the two.

Finally, from another sudy:

“A recent study of nearly 400,000 teachers in the state of Texas found that teachers who choose to change districts are more likely to take a job where there are fewer minorities, lower poverty rates and higher student achievement. On average, teachers tended to transfer to districts that had 2 percent fewer African-American students, 4.4 percent fewer Hispanic students, 6 percent fewer low-income students and a slightly higher average student test scores (Hanushek, Kain and Rivkin, 2002). Higher salaries seemed to be less of a factor in teachers’ decisions to leave, as teachers changing districts earned on average only 0.4 percent more in their new districts. Such data further support the notion that schools with poor, minority, and low-achieving students are faced with the greatest teacher retention challenges.”

So now what? Teachers ARE voting with their feet, so to speak. We’re not the ones that should be concerned; communities are. I don’t consider my students or their parents to be my clients - my community is. It’s the communities that should be forcing change, not by being sucked into the latest politician’s alphabet soup of a solution, but by truly understanding the nature of the problem. It’s multi-faceted, and is about a lot more than teacher’s “whining” about their salaries.

By HD

December 29, 2005 12:46 PM | Link to this

Average GA starting teacher salary of $46,526 is equivalent of $62,036 for a year-round job. Benefits are also better than many corporate jobs. Workdays are not any longer than average corporate workdays.

Given the failures of GA schools, I fail to see why teachers should be earning any more than they are. Past salary increases have not improved performance.

By luvs2teach

December 29, 2005 01:10 PM | Link to this

HD - it’s average teacher’s pay NOT starting pay. I’m not complaining about my pay, but I will correct mistakes that further enhance the perception that we are “overpaid.” Also, does that number include administrators who are on a different salary schedule?

For the record, from the GADOE site, 2004 STARTING pay for a teacher for a 190 day schedule is $27,650. This is the state minimum; some counties may pay more (I know Dekalb does). It comes out to about $18/hr. It works out to about $36,000 if the teacher worked 50 40 hour weeks (2 weeks paid vacation - standard in many corporate jobs).

Our benefits are decent, but comparable to many corporate jobs that require someone with BS or BA degree. Most jobs that have fewer benefits are jobs that also require fewr qualifications.

As far as “the failures of GA schools” - show your stats that specifically correlate particular failure rates to specific teacher actions, and then we can discuss ways to fix each problem and decide the appropriate merit pay to boot!

To all - interesting site:

www.jamievollmer.com

A former CEO who now promotes education - he is the originator of the infamous “Blueberry” story.

By luvs2teach

December 29, 2005 02:12 PM | Link to this

Another interesting article about teacher merit pay:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0614/p13s02-legn.html?s=hns

It is about a district near Denver that uses a merit pay system endorsed by their union:

“In Colorado, Staebell’s employer found a way to reward teachers without alienating them, by creating a program that provides incentives but not punishments. Since 1993, the fast-growing Douglas County School District has given bonuses based on a variety of factors, from an entire school’s academic performance to an individual teacher’s willingness to take on extra duties and train colleagues. A group of art teachers, for instance, can get together, create goals for themselves, and make more money in the process. “Outstanding Teachers” such as Staebell can get bonuses by creating portfolios that demonstrate their performance and their students’ growth.”