Get Schooled

By MMM

December 5, 2005 12:14 PM | Link to this

I think Crawford Lewis is right in many cases. Does in-school detension still exist(additional worksheets and no time with friends)? What about staying after school to write on the chalkboard “I will not….” 1000x. followed by the parent having to make a special trip the school to get the child?

By Jake

December 5, 2005 01:07 PM | Link to this

Dioramas are cool, I remember my daughter doing one in 5th grade. Can’t tell if the punishment fit the crime since we don’t know the crime, but OSS is necessary to maintain order in school. The student can get class notes from a friend and makeup missed work on his own time. Why should the teacher suffer for the unruly child?

By oldteacher

December 5, 2005 01:13 PM | Link to this

Out-of-school suspension is just exactly what some kids want. We still have in-school here and some kids misbehave so badly there that they are sent home. If parents could be there to make sure that the kids didn’t play, it would be wonderful. However, in the real world I know that most parents are working to support their families. It is a Catch-22 situation.

By Velatra

December 5, 2005 01:16 PM | Link to this

I think suspensions work for the students at the elementary level because it is the PARENTS are who inconvenienced. The parents don’t want to spend time (and money) to find someone to keep their kids.
However, I do believe that suspensions will work for those in middle and high school grades if their GPA’s are affected. Give them zeroes for all assignments that are missed, and do not give any make-up work. Tell them—especially the seniors—that their graduation and other privileges (i.e. prom, extracurricular activities)will be affected. When I was in high school (1987-1990), that alone was a deterrent. In my school, even you had a simple unexused absence—no suspension or any other punishment involved—you got a zero for any work (i.e. test or quiz) you missed. It happened to me ONCE when I checked myself out of school.

By zoe

December 5, 2005 01:17 PM | Link to this

Since only two weeks are left until winter break, I predict there will be a ton of fights (10 day suspension guaranteed) this week. Back to the story: usually there is more to a suspension than just being late. A student has to practically assault a teacher to get suspended in our system and even then it is not a given that the student will be punished. Sometimes suspensions are the paperwork to get a student into alternative school or expelled. Also, even when students are allowed to make up work while they are suspended, they hardly ever do and then they wind up failing for the semester. Of every student I’ve ever had get suspended for 10 days (about 25-30 in 6 years of teaching), only 2 have actually done the work and passed. I always sent work home and kept a copy of the assignment. This way when mommy came crying, I could show I did what I was requested to do and the student didn’t follow up. Honestly, suspensions are god’s gift to worn out teachers. Usually the kids that are out are the ones we’re praying won’t come back and we hope the kids get the hint!

By jim dumond

December 5, 2005 01:33 PM | Link to this

If students commit an infraction that warrants a 10-day suspension, just go ahead and expel them for a semester. Let moms and dads tend to the little urchins. Or let them get a job and find out what the real world is about. Perhaps then they would come back with a bit of an attitude adjustment.

By teacher

December 5, 2005 01:41 PM | Link to this

Again we are back to talking about and just talking about a small percentage of students that act up and make it hard for teachers, students, and schools to perform as they should. There needs to be a legal way to define these students and get them out of regular school and somewhere else very early in the year. Not in May and not after 3 or 4 years of doing thier thing. They need to be gone as soon as it is determined that they wish to behave this way. The first week of school if needed. But we all know that unless parents get involved, complain and even then it will take a lot of them and lawyers get involved nothing will happen. One problem is that students that are affected are doing what they should and therefore their parents are okay with things. They do not realize what their child has to go through everyday with these kids in thier class and how much thier child is missing in extra instruction they could recieve if not for the bad kid. But sonething needs to be done sooner or later and later was yesterday.

By Robert

December 5, 2005 01:55 PM | Link to this

My school has in school suspension first, and then out of school supension if bad behavior continues or if a single incident is particularly bad.

To me, the oos mostly punishes the parents because then the parents must find some way for their kid to be supervised (or not). However, maybe it should be the parents that are punished in most cases! If the parents would discipline their child, teach right from wrong, and to respect adults, then their child would probably not be in trouble in the first place.

By jim dumond

December 5, 2005 01:58 PM | Link to this

Agreed Teach,

While all children deserve an education not all want one. I’ll say it again; leading a child to an education is like leading a horse to water.

Alternative schools aren’t the answer either. Life in the real world is all some of these kids will understand. Our feeble attempts to provide them with something they have absolutely no desire to have is hurting those that are in school to learn.

By HSTeach

December 5, 2005 02:38 PM | Link to this

In my county any absence results in the student being allowed to make up the work…no excuse is needed. If they are suspended for fighting, they get the opportunity to come back, ask for the work, and we have to give it to them for the same amount of credit…..of course they don’t ask for it (usually), but they have that option….awful, isn’t it? so yes, suspensions are a free trip home. when i was in high school (less than 10 years ago) if you missed school (for any unexcused reason) you got a zero for that assignment. If you had an excuse (doctor’s note, etc.) then you had a certain amount of time to makeup the work….of course, that was in a district that cared about setting the bar high…..we’re trying to fix this….what can we do but try?

By high school teacher

December 5, 2005 02:39 PM | Link to this

Georgia law requires that students who are suspended must be given an opportunity to make up missed work. Sounds like a paid vacation to me! Most kids would rather get suspended than be placed in In-School-Suspension. This is another example of legislation messing up education. I remember the goold old days when students got zeros for work while they were suspended. God forbid we hold students accountable for anything.

By jim dumond

December 5, 2005 03:16 PM | Link to this

NCLB—Need I say more?

By jim dumond

December 5, 2005 03:17 PM | Link to this

Funny isn’t it? When schools become accountable how students become less so.

By gary furman

December 5, 2005 04:20 PM | Link to this

The problem of OSS (out-of-school suspensions) at the high school level is that tthey work only for kids who are usually good students and participants in extracurricular activities. OSS prevents them from socializing, doing academic work at school,playing sports, doing drama, etc. Good parents then put the hammer down and kids “learn their lesson”. OSS does NOT work for kids who are unhappy in a traditional high school : they do not participate academically, socially, or in extracurricular activities. OSS is then an achieved goal: not having to be in school. Their abberant behavior occurs because they won’t or can’t function there. Many parents have the tragic opinion that “the school must deal with my unruly child and not bug me with him”. Some excellent parents simply have a hormonally-affected “wild child” that cannot be controlled. Two solutions exist: change the law that makes education K-12 mandatory. It does not work for everyone. The school and the rest of the students are better off without the chronic behavior problems. Second, offer a much wider curriculum, which is currently viewed as uninteresting and irrelevant. We have kids at our school who are regular sourfaced denizens in ISS who would happily be good citizens in an auto shop all day. The other letter writers above are right: we need to get rid of the 3% that constantly disrupt class, commit crimes, make teacher’s lives hell on a daily basis, and, worst of all, harm every other student in their classes. Why is there a teacher shortage in Georgia? Excellent, experienced teachers who normally would work 30-40 years to retirement like other professionals quit after 10 or 20 because of the level of stress imposed by that 3%.

By Leia

December 5, 2005 04:32 PM | Link to this

It is such a huge pain to try to catch students up after a 9 day vacation - especially when you have a repeat offender. It really isn’t fair that I should have to stay after school and offer free tutoring sessions for a student who had no regard for the school’s rules.

By JCB

December 5, 2005 05:03 PM | Link to this

Out of School Suspension is not a punishment for the child. It is, in fact, a punishment for the parents of the child. It should never be the first choice of punishment; however, once all other options have been utilized it may be necessary to force the involvement of parents who otherwise may ignore the situation. Current school regulations provide that students may not be allowed to make up missed work. This is absurd. What is the purpose of potentially ruining a child’s grades as punishment?

By Jim

December 6, 2005 08:08 AM | Link to this

No. Kids should not be given 10 day out of school suspension. Afterall when prisoners act up, they get solitary confinement not a work release. Don’t laugh. There are many similarities between these two government institutions. In fact I’ve seen prisons with more windows than schools.

By DT

December 6, 2005 08:13 AM | Link to this

JCB. Maybe the parents should be punished along with the kids. The problem is that all these kids get an umbrella of protection from parents and spinless AP’s. Everybody always says let the school take care of there problems and at the same time the schools are losing any leverage it has to punish students. By allowing the suspended student to make-up their work it is like making things easy for the bad kids. I say suspend them all and let the parents sort things out. Give them all zeros and see if it happens again. Poor little Johnny will have to live up to what he has done and nobody will bail him out. JCB writes “Current school regulations provide that students may not be allowed to make up missed work. This is absurd. What is the purpose of potentially ruining a child’s grades as punishment?” What about the grades that the bad kids are messing up of the kids that actually want to learn? What a joke. This is why we have a problem. No parental support.

By jim dumond

December 6, 2005 09:10 AM | Link to this

@JCB

The purpose my friend is to reinforce one of lifes real lessons.

“In life there are consequences for ones actions.”

By oldteacher

December 6, 2005 09:14 AM | Link to this

Amen, Jim. If more consequences were enforced there would be fewer inappropriate actions.

By Jake

December 6, 2005 10:27 AM | Link to this

Those whose grades didn’t suffer because of their bad behavior grew up to become Martha Stewart and CEO’s at Enron and WorldCom, American success stories with despicable ethics. When my daughter first started getting grades I told her English and behavior were the most important areas because excelling in both would serve her well all her life.

By Swangirl

December 6, 2005 11:53 AM | Link to this

Thank you for mentioning the diorama, Patti! I read the article Sunday night and that little item caught my eye right away.

True, I’m not education expert and don’t pretend to be. But dioramas in high school? Jake mentioned his daughter did one…in fifth grade! So did I…in fourth and fifth grades. That’s telling, isn’t it? Something is not right here.

If this is the standard we’re asking our high school students to meet in studying literature, we are in big trouble. I know it was just one day out of the class, but it made me feel kinda queasy.

I truly hope they’re also writing essays and taking part in team activities to further explore what they are reading.

By Greg

December 6, 2005 12:35 PM | Link to this

I have to speak up to defend the teacher who assigned a diorama as a literature grade. I don’t know who this is, but I think I can say with confidence that of course they are not just sitting around making dioramas everyday. I’m sure this is just one teacher’s attempt to find a way to reach students who may not be reachable by the standard “sit down, be quiet, and write an essay about this story” lesson. Creating art inspired by the emotions you’ve experienced while reading a great work of literature is an excellent way of inspiring discussion and reflection, whether it is in 4th grade or 12th. Of course writing is of critical importance, and if it is not being utilized as a major part of the curriculum for this class, then that needs to be addressed by the appropriate administrators. But let’s applaud our teachers for attempting some differentiated instruction every once in a while.

By V for Vendetta

December 6, 2005 12:55 PM | Link to this

Time and time again kids are assigned ISD (In School Detention), ISS (In School Suspension), and OSS (Out of School Suspension). ISD is useless, it paints the teacher out to be the problem as the kid is removed only for the assigning teacher’s class. ISS is more of a punishment towards the teacher because all of the work has to be put together and sent over to the student complete with instructions (heaven forbid their actions actually have consequences that impact THEM). OSS is the most useless punishment of all. The kid stays at home, playing video games, smoking weed, whatever… only to have his teacher give him credit for all of his assignments when returns. That’s right, even though most teachers have the right to give the work but give no credit for it, many are too afraid of a parental backlash (and lack of administrative support) to actually enforce it. Basically, the inmates run the asylum. If you think otherwise, then state a differing opinion with an irate parent and see which side your administrator takes. And to think… I teach at one of the “good” schools.

By ESOL

December 6, 2005 01:15 PM | Link to this

Students who received In School Suspension are allowed to make up work. They are isolated in a special classroom for the entire day. Students who receive Out of School Suspension are not allowed to make up work.

This does affect the student greatly. If a student has 10 days of OSS, they will fall very far behind in class. Most students who receive 10 days of OSS do not place school as a high priority. The consequence is necessary.

Is the purpose of OSS to provide a miserable situation for a student? No, the purpose of OSS is to remove a student from the classroom where demonstrated intolerable behavior. Removal through OSS is a protective measure for teachers and students. What other solution do you have for serious offenders?

By V for Vendetta

December 6, 2005 02:15 PM | Link to this

So if the student is not miserable, or does not care about the punishment (ie repeat offenders), then he should be removed permanently and placed in a different situation, correct? If that is so, why do so many people think that course of action to be “unfair”?

By Swangirl

December 6, 2005 02:27 PM | Link to this

Greg, I am definitely all in favor of differentiated instruction that inspires interest and discussion. I agree with you on that.

My concern is with the level of that instruction, especially if it is an activity done long ago in younger grades. If a high school student is doing a diorama, he’s also most likely sitting quietly at his desk doing his own thing. And it may have not been discussed at all afterward.

Beyond writing, there are team activities students can take part in to boost their involvement with a text. It can be as simple as coming up with a debate topic from a story, dividing into two teams and defending your side. And yes, art to reflect one’s opinion on a story is also great…if it is a tool to stimulate discussion and further learning. I fear the dioramas might have been done in about 20 minutes and that’s it. On to the next thing.

Again, I’m not a teacher, not an expert. And you’re right, I don’t know the teacher’s long-range plans for the class. There’s a lot more to it than I know. But it still bothers me.

I encourage the teachers here to enlighten me on the diorama issue (can you tell I’ve thought about this too much?) and where it stacks up as a teaching tool. I’d love to know more.

By Steve

December 6, 2005 02:47 PM | Link to this

Whether a student wants to be suspended or not (almost all do not) is not the point. When disruptive behavior becomes so bad that all other remedies have been exhausted, the teacher and the other students deserve a break from the offending student. If this is an inconvenience to a parent or the students get behind (or more behind) in his/her studies, then that is the price one pays. I absolutely support teachers and administrators who have the courage to protect the academic welfare of the vast majority of students who come to school prepared, behave, and want to learn.

By SET

December 6, 2005 04:53 PM | Link to this

I believe there are other punishments short of Out of School Suspension. My school used them sometimes.

The kids who were given OSS were kids who were being warned that they were being set up for expulsion or punitive transfer to loser schools.

The whole point of OSS is to send a real message to the kid and to the parents that the school has reached the point where they don’t want to “help” Johnny any more. They want him gone. If the problemisn’t corrected this time then next level of punishment is expulsion so that normal students and teachers don’t have to suffer Johnny’s presence further.

I use the term “Johnny” because most of the behavior problems when I was in High School were from hormonal or anti-social males. How much has changed? There was a time that promiscuous or (worse) pregnant high school girls were expelled is they didn’t withdraw from school first - so that normal students weren’t exposed to such shocking immorality. The boys may have wanted sex but the girls weren’t supposed to be going around giving anybody any. Well, nothing more than what the Animal House (movie) girls did at the drive-in.

Good Old days. We could bring them back.

My point: OSS is a warning that expulsion is in the wings. It is an important tool of progressive discipline. It should only come after Saturday Class, Evening Class, and other detentions. (Anybody else see “The Breakfast Club”?)

Many kids don’t belong in schools with normal kids. There was a recent news story about a local (California) School District that is imposing entrance requirements for it’s High School, requiring summer classes for 8th graders not measuring up and then refusing enrollment to those who don’t make the cut. The losers have to go to Alternative High School. It seems the threat of physical removal from their cohort is inspiring 7th and 8th graders to work harder. One of the requirements is having to read at or near grade level. Other requirements are GPA, attendance records, math, etc.

If the students don’t measure up to the starting requirements they should never be in a normal high school. It’s not fair to the prospective student or the rest of the normal students.

Anyway if the little darlings have something to fear (removal from their cohort) they might not have time for acting up and acting out.

By Miss Kim

December 7, 2005 10:15 AM | Link to this

There needs to be a whole curriculum for at home suspension that requires a student to learn discipline and cooperation, by doing volunteer work with cleaning projects, like picking up trash in certain communities and highways. Washing windows at shelters, etc. There is something they can do to make them think rather than giving them a break. Our culture has changed, so we have to change. There is almost like no fear for nothing these days. Need to get more involved with the media because alot of false hope is being provided.

By Laf

December 7, 2005 11:50 AM | Link to this

how schools can reduce discipline problems by imporving the educational or instuctional program instead of punishment, punishment, and punishment school would be a much more positive place for our kids and teachers. Schools that have a flexible curriculum and instructional programs that meet the varied needs of a diverse student body will have fewer discipline problems. Also has anybody posting on here thought of useing a posive behavior management program!!! When educational programs are relevant, interesting, and appropriate for students as individuals teachers can use their energy teaching instead of dealing with discipline problems all the time. But of course we will always have some discipline probems in our public schools. Remember we are dealing with humans.

By V for Vendetta

December 14, 2005 10:50 AM | Link to this

Sorry Laf, but I laught at you. You can have all the instructional programs and junk like that you want, but when I have a kid in my class on Rule 12 who is OSS pending panel and they end up SENDING HIM BACK TO SCHOOL, then yes, I have a slight problem with the severity of punishment. We give these kids chance after chance, after chance (I could go on), only to bend to their whims in the end. What does that teach them? Constant disruption or behavior problems result in … nothing. Sure they may get behind in work, but lets get serious, these are the kind of kids who could care less what their grades are. They are counting the days until they can drop out. Ridiculous. Why should I have to put up with it when I have a class full of kids who WANT to learn and go to college? You start booting kids out of school, or sending them off to some alternative place, behavior will snap back in line. Right now they have nothing to be afraid of. ISS? Oh boohoo, I’ll go sit in a nice and quiet room by myself all day and get lunch before everyone else. OSS? Big deal, I’ll relax at home and get my work sent to me. You think some kind of alternative instruction, or extra courses will change that? Some kids are a cancer on the education of the majority and they should be dealt with accordingly. Once you start to affect the ability of those around you to learn, you give up your “right” to a free public education.