Get Schooled

By Nancy2

December 2, 2005 12:59 PM | Link to this

I totally concur. When I was growing up (I’m 55), there would have been no question of who would have been believed if I’d come home with a note from the teacher or if the teacher had called our house. My mother always said that I was to tell her if I was ever struck by a teacher, but other than that, my parent’s attitude was always “why would the teacher complain if there was nothing in your behavior to complain about.” In addition, when I was in 5th grade, I had a severe problem with a teacher who admittedly favored boys. No clue why but she even told parents that she didn’t like girls all that much. My parents responded by saying that I had to deal with it. It was just one year and that I would find out as an adult that I would have to learn to work with many people I didn’t like or who didn’t like me. That was life.

Today, parents seem to take it personally, as if they were the ones being disciplined, when their child is called on the carpet for misbehaving. They rant and rave that it must be the teacher with the problem rather than seeing that their behavior only emboldens the kid and makes both the teacher’s and kid’s life miserable.

Take a clue folks from my parents. I am now able to work with just about anyone, making them think that I’m great adn tat we have a good relationship, without it impacting my life or stress level. Today’s kids are going to get a rude awakening when they enter the work place, and God help us when those “entitled” kids are the majority and running things.

By Nancy2

December 2, 2005 01:04 PM | Link to this

I should have added (and spelled better) that better behaved students would most certainly help to fix the good-teacher-leaving problem. The best and the brightest will always be able to get a job, often a better job, somewhere else. The first to go are always those with more options. The last to go are those with no where else to go. Sure, there is the occasional professional who feels teaching is a calling, but they are few and far between. Without discipline, the good teachers will say, “why do I need this?” and leave.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

December 2, 2005 01:12 PM | Link to this

I can’t agree with always backing the teacher, because I had an experience in highschool with a match teacher that was heart breaking for me.

The problem: every math problem had to be worked out the way she performed the operation on the board. My method was not incorrect and I always showed my work, but she would always mark my answers wrong.

I thank God, that the Principal had been a math teacher for 20 years. It took a call from my mother and a conference with the Principal to make her give back the points she took off from my test and homework.

That is the reason I always listen to what my child has to say about a teacher or any other adult. I am very strict parent, but I know that there are people out there, who will abuse there power.

By jim dumond

December 2, 2005 01:28 PM | Link to this

The other side of that coin causes one to reflect on much larger questions.

Are teachers worthy of total blind trust?

Not to me. I have made it a practice to make trust be earned, it is not something I give freely.

Will a teacher lie? Indeed, and I’ve caught a few. Out of respect, the one thing I do afford teachers freely, I would never confront them with the child present though.

So the next question becomes can the finger pointing ever be stopped.

No, not until such time as teachers learn to respect a parents rights and parents learn to respect, notice I didn’t say trust, teachers.

Would it fix behavior? Again NO. If fixing behavior and teaching those that want to learn is the goal then we must throw off the belief that all children deserve a free education. Children that want to learn deserve our efforts, but the ones that don’t give a rip, do not. I mean really. How to you teach someone that’s not interested in learning? Perhaps the answer lies in putting them on the street—flipping burgers and washing cars could serve as a reality check, convincing kids to reconsider their actions.

By Teacher

December 2, 2005 01:45 PM | Link to this

Seems that all problems and discusions are about a few students that cannot or choose not to behave. Most have acted this way since elementary. And it also seems that talking about the problem is all that is ever done. If the bad students were taken out of the regular classroom early as soon as the problem is noticed the school systems would improve 200%. We all seem to know that. So why do we not do it. It is time that true laws are passed that says “If a student does not want to behave in class, and behavoiur is defined as what the teacher expects in his or her class, then they go to school where they can be dealt with or maybe even offer them online education.� Then the other students will be able to learn to their full abilities. If we implented this we would also find that many students that would have gone to these other alternitives would not have to. Most would choose to act right. But we need to do it not talk about it and do it soon. Our schools are being distroyed by politicians and bad students

By jim dumond

December 2, 2005 01:48 PM | Link to this

Hey teach,

Our schools are being distroyed by A FEW politicians and A FEW bad students

By James McCoy

December 2, 2005 01:50 PM | Link to this

Jim Dumond you just can’t get out of that teacher mode can you.lol

By RF

December 2, 2005 01:55 PM | Link to this

It’s a small, small group of kids and parents who fail to support teachers. I’ve seen teachers be wrong, and called them on it. I’ve also seen parents irrationally defensive of their children, and the effects are far from helpful. Teachers need to make sure they have documented facts about behavior or problems. If it’s on paper, it’s a lot easier to convince a doubtful parent. I’ve never had a problem with parents because I call them early and approach them with respect. The problem a lot of times is attitude. When defensive, neither teachers nor parents make a good impression on the other. We can’t work together successfully until we learn to respect each other.

By jim dumond

December 2, 2005 01:58 PM | Link to this

Good Afternoon Mr. McCoy.

Actually if I were teaching I’d simply stir a lot of people by explaining the hard cold truth that over 80% of the disruptive incidents in our schools are created by less than 10% of the students.

Guess where that 10% comes from? If you guessed special ed. you are 100% correct

By James McCoy

December 2, 2005 01:58 PM | Link to this

The real question that know one ask is why aren’t the children learning?

By jim dumond

December 2, 2005 02:05 PM | Link to this

No the question should be why they don’t care to learn. You know you can lead a child to school much like leading a horse to water.

By Ernest

December 2, 2005 02:06 PM | Link to this

Jim, you hit the nail on the head! Perhaps because of recent blog topics, I’ve noticed a different ‘tone’ with some of the postings. Teachers will always get my respect. Like Jim, in my personal experiences, both as a student and a parent, I’ve encountered a few teachers that should not be teachers. Respect is a two way street. Just because I ask a question, I shouldn’t be considered a ‘bad parent’. I’ve been made to feel that way at times. Thankfully, it did not discourage me from asking questions.

There are too many parents that have abdicated their responsibilities and expect the school system to raise their children. There are many more parents that want to ‘do the right thing’ and work with the school/teacher for the sake of the child. Lumping bad parents/teachers into a general category and painting a ‘broad brush’ for all parents/teachers is causing more problems.

My son plays basketball and one of the coaches requested a parents meeting after a game. According to him, all the players are ‘disrespectful’ in practice thus making it hard to do anything. I asked my son about this and he indicated 2-3 boys were disrespectful and all suffered because of this. He also added the coaches were disrespectful to the players and constantly yells, berates and embarrasses them throughout practice. My son wants to quit simply because of the coaches conduct (and he does play). Unfortunately, when parents ‘advocate’ for situations like this, we may be perceived as ‘babying’ our children. IMO, the coach’s conduct is reprehensible (I believe my son because I heard other boys say the same). Coach is a teacher and should still remember that while coaching.

By jim dumond

December 2, 2005 02:09 PM | Link to this

Ernest,

Set in on a couple of practices and see for yourself befor jumping to conclusions.

By Nancy2

December 2, 2005 02:12 PM | Link to this

I am sure that for you, Amazed (IW), the situation was heartbreaking, but as I posted before, many life situations, as well as teachers, are not fair. My question to you, however, is why, when you knew what she wanted, did you not do it her way? She was the teacher. That would seem to me a no-brainer rather than go through what you went through just to do it another way.

Everyone has to at one time or other suffer superiors who insist on doing “it” their way, when we either have a viable alternative or another preferred way. The point is that it is not about us but about what our superior wants. We are working for them. That’s life. I had to begin my own business to do it my way, and now I have employees who have to do it MY way. My way is the preferred way because I have been doing what we do for over 20 years and they are fresh out of school. Who’se expertise do you think I’m going to believe when we problem solve? It’s not that I won’t listen, but I have the experience, life skills and training to know what needs to be done. The same is true with our students and teachers.

Teachers are not infallible, but for me the point is not whether teachers lie or the kids act up but rather what life-skills are we teaching them when we save them from themselves and teachers? Think about it!

By JTH

December 2, 2005 02:17 PM | Link to this

True.

I think a child’s behavior is largely taught/learned at home. If a parent undermine whatever attempts the teachers make to correct an unruly child’s behavior because they think THEIR child doesn’t EVER misbehave, then the teacher will eventually quit the profession out of frustration or leave for districts/schools where they have parental support.

I think being a disciplinarian to someone else’s ill-behaved brats (and the ridiculously low pay) drives teachers out.

By jim dumond

December 2, 2005 02:19 PM | Link to this

in todays world of teaching it’s the paperwork that drives them out quickest.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

December 2, 2005 02:26 PM | Link to this

Nancy 2,

When I read your comments, I became a little angry. “My question to you, however, is why, when you knew what she wanted, did you not do it her way? She was the teacher.�

Everyone does not obtain information in the exact same way. I just happened to be one of those people. I was not defying her, as you would think, just to do so out of spite. I did not comprehend her method of teaching the particular problems, but I was smart enough to find my own solution. It just so happens there is more than one way to get the correct answer. A real teacher would have acknowledged more than one method.

If you think, that I would allow anyone to take away my child’s points, just because she did the problem using another method, think again.

By Jim

December 2, 2005 02:28 PM | Link to this

You don’t have to go to a school setting to see a parent go ballistic when confronted by someone about something their child did. Just go to church or the grocery store and you can see this played out. People generally don’t listen and follow up with questions. They hear one thing about an incident and react, which makes them look like fools. However, I would be willing to bet that more than half the time the teacher is the problem. Question authority. Let’s face it our public school system is pathetic because like most other government run bureaucracies there is little incentive to do better.

By Ernest

December 2, 2005 02:31 PM | Link to this

Jim, you are right! A few parents indicated they plan to do that because they were in disbelief also. Honestly, I got the impression that the coach did not want that to happen. Nonetheless, your point is correct, we should see this with our own eyes before ‘taking that leap’.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

December 2, 2005 02:32 PM | Link to this

Nancy2,

If you have a superior who insist upon doing things their way, I would let them do it. I have found in the corporate world, that people work more efficiently, if they come up with their own method. I can offer suggestions, but I am smart enough to know that I am not always right.

People who micro manage their employees, usually don’t keep employees very long.

By Robot

December 2, 2005 02:35 PM | Link to this

The real problem with teachers is they are human. They must be respectful, perfect, unemotional, tolerant and obedient at ALL times. That’s a tall order. Never trust a teacher unless they are the robot everyone expects them to be.

By jim dumond

December 2, 2005 02:52 PM | Link to this

I’ve actually found some teachers to be quite defensive. I once asked for a parent teacher conference to discuss my childs failure to perform at the level expected from home. Upon entering the classroom I discovered 2 teachers and 2 administrators awaiting my arrival. And oddly all I wanted was to know what I could do to help him and reinforce what she was doing.

By Laura

December 2, 2005 02:57 PM | Link to this

I’m a parent of a “special ed” kid and I simply can’t trust public school teachers to do the right thing anymore. My son had one horrible teacher after another in his 3 years in public school.

He is in a private school for dyslexic children now (for which I pay $17k/year) and the teachers are properly trained, have generous resources, and a max of 10 in any class. He has learned to read at grade level!! He’s liked and respected by the teachers. I trust these teachers. Whatever they so goes. They run a tight ship. The teachers like and respect the kids.

By Karen Armsby

December 2, 2005 03:02 PM | Link to this

Amazed, I agree with Nancy2, I had an Algebra teacher in high school in 1969, who insisted that we use the method he taught us to solve problems. We had big spiral notebooks that we used throughout the year and we worked one problem per page. He graded the notebooks for correct methodolgy and answers. It was arduous, but we did it, and I am glad he was so strict. I have never forgotten the method he taught us to solve algebra problems, because we did it over and over and over. Sometimes the teacher’s method is the point of the learning and so the correct answer is not as important.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

December 2, 2005 03:17 PM | Link to this

For all the people with Only One Method in Life:

A young lady I currently work with had only one method (excel) for analyzing data - using VLookUp, Macros and Pivot tables.

One day, she became frustrated and asked how I could analyze my data so fast. You see, I have more than one method - I use Access, SAS, SPSS or Excel.

You can’t analyze large data sets using Excel. But she only knows the old school method. I have ran into people like her in the past, they are always happy when you show them an alternative method to their madness.

My point for Nancy and Karen - you must acknowledge more than one way to skin a cat or you will become tired and frustrated when you can’t perform small task efficiently.

By Parent

December 2, 2005 03:29 PM | Link to this

This is another one of the topics that school choice would solve. I have seen very few if any issues discussed here that school choice wouldn’t solve.

I have always been amazed how we all accept that parents and students are informed enough to select their college of choice. While doubting their ability in selecting their elementary through high schools.

By Karen Armsby

December 2, 2005 03:33 PM | Link to this

Amazed, I agree with you that there are many methods available to solve any number of problems we face in life, at school, at work and home. I totally advocate for creative thinking outside of the box. Once you learn the basics the skies are the limit.

Amazed, I think you missed my point; when students are learning a subject for the first time in school and the teacher is presenting that material using one method, then the student needs to adhere to that method, understand it, learn it, and then he or she can build on it, and innovate in their own way later. You said you didn’t understand the teacher’s method, but you were smart enough to find your own solution. If you were so smart couldn’t you have tried harder and learned the teacher’s method?

IMHO your parents shortchanged you when they challenged the teacher’s method. They should have worked with you and the teacher to help you understand the method. Instead you didn’t learn the method and you presume that a real teacher would have acknowledged more than one method.

I think you just proved the point of this thread, We have seen the enemy and it is us.

By RF

December 2, 2005 03:34 PM | Link to this

Laura- your school is successful because it is designed for specifically your child’s needs. Public school has to try to address them all, and admittedly can’t always help special needs children completely. In your place, I wouldn’t blame the teachers nearly as much as the system for not being able to set up schools for specific needs. Federal legislation that requires inclusion in regular ed. programs has hurt more LD kids than I can count. Their educational needs are often overlooked in an attempt to include them in classes where they will struggle to learn anything. My heart goes out to you for having to pay so much, but in your place I would do the same thing. My youngest is currently being evaluated for ADHD, and right now appears borderline. I will likely do what you have done if the need arises. In our attempt to be fair to all kids, we have unintentionally hurt our kids with the greatest learning needs.

By DB

December 2, 2005 03:37 PM | Link to this

This blog is on a roll! I’m so glad to see it’s finally getting to the crux of the matter. Everyone, please keep it up!

By DB

December 2, 2005 03:45 PM | Link to this

ALL kids need discipline, responsibility, respect, and a work ethic. That’s it. Unfortunately, in the era of excuses and lowered expectations in the name of public appeasement we give our kids all the opposite.

By Robert

December 2, 2005 03:46 PM | Link to this

I am at a high school that made AYP last year - one of only a couple in the school district. Many parents from the other schools that did not make AYP pulled their kids out and put them in my school.

These “new” kids are the worst and are pulling our school down. They are disruptive and lazy (refusing to do any work in or out of class). When we (teachers or administrators) talk to these parents it is always the teachers fault. These parents refuse to accept any responsibility and of course their little Johnny or Suzie could never do anything wrong.

If these kids that leave one school and go to another for ANY reason do not step up to the plate, I wish that NCLB would force them to return to their original school - because then it is obviously not the school or teachers!

By Robert

December 2, 2005 03:50 PM | Link to this

Parent,

School choice is NOT the answer! Moving kids from one place to another will NOT suddenly motivate them or force them to learn.

See my above message about how parents WHERE able to chose another school (my school). However these parents are the very ones that refuse to take ownership for their childs lack of discipline (academic or behavior). Now, these same students are doing poorly in ANOTHER school and bringing that school down. This is the schools fault? NO!!! The parents needs to parent.

Changing schools, or school choice, is NOT the answer.

By Robert

December 2, 2005 03:51 PM | Link to this

typo: WHERE should be WERE

By Jake

December 2, 2005 03:56 PM | Link to this

I don’t remember a single incident of a parent coming to school and defending their kid against a teacher when I was growing up. Usually the kids were automatically punished for disrespecting the teacher’s authority, if th parents found out about it, and it wasn’t necessary that the teacher be 100% correct beyond a doubt either. Now everyone seems more like Amazed, who mistakenly believes the dicussion is about being correct, and preserving your self-esteem by never admitting you made a mistake. The discussion is about parents supporting or undermining the teacher’s authority, not about what you in your infinite wisdom have decided are the appropriate tools for analyzing data! You know, the one where the boss says I might not be right all the time, but I’m the boss all the time. If you don’t want to delegate authority to the teachers and administrators you should home school. Isn’t it ironic that the parents most willing to have someone else parent their children because they’re unwilling to commit the time and effort, are also the ones most likely to question the authority they’ve delegated?

By DB

December 2, 2005 04:00 PM | Link to this

Jim Dumond: You’re going to have that. Most conferences are about parents coming in and trying to degrade the teacher or school. It’s the era of aggressive helicopter parents sheltering their kids from reality, and schools are playing CYA. Most conferences are absolutely a waste of time anyway. Teachers and administrators shouldn’t be afraid to tell those type of parents to back off. They’re just expecting the worst.

By DB

December 2, 2005 04:05 PM | Link to this

Jake makes a great point.

It’s all about trust and respect for authority. There is none of either.

By Karen Armsby

December 2, 2005 04:06 PM | Link to this

I sent my kids to school to learn how to learn, how to think creatively, and how to analyze in a variety of subjects. Life is usually not black and white, and seldom is there is one ‘right’ answer. IMHO the point of teaching and learning is to open the eyes, broaden horizons, give strategies and methods for recognition,understanding, and analysis. And parents need to have open lines of communication with teachers so that they can understand and support the teacher’s goal, and help their children in the process, and not presume to step on the teacher’s turf just so they can prove a point. If the know-it-all attitude parents are so smart and want to tell the teachers how to do their jobs, then the parents need to either get a teaching certificate themselves or home school their kids.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

December 2, 2005 04:07 PM | Link to this

Karen,

If you were so smart, you would know that teachers are not always correct. Not every teacher uses the same method, thank godness, because my Principal sided with me. Furthemore, both of my parents were excellent mathmeticians - so I obtained my math skills through birth.

In addition, haven’t you people had enough of teaching your children how to become parrots? That’s the biggest problem I have with our current school systems. One Method, One Way and three hundred test to see if you can do it all the “same way”.

Maybe if you introduced multiple ways to accomplish a task, you would have more children who are able to pass.

By charlie

December 2, 2005 04:18 PM | Link to this

When I was in Grade School and Middle School - early and mid-70’s, we walked to school. The school was part of our neighborhood. We knew our classmates. They were neighbors and friends. We knew their older brothers and sisters, and younger as well. We had brothers and sisters who were friends with their brothers and sisters. Our parents knew on another.

The teachers taught everyone in the family as they came up through the grades. I was the youngest of 6 and on the first day of school the teacher would inevitably say, “so you’re so & so’s brother …”

Believe me, by the time I got to school, I knew well what was expected of me.

There were no weapons, unless you want to count the occasional spit ball. There was no cursing (at least not within earshot of a teacher or parent). Missed homework resulted in lower grades and NOT PASSING a grade was not only a VERY REAL possibility, it was an IMMENSE deterrent.

The 80’s came. So did bussing. They stopped building houses with front porches in favor of back-yard decks. Neighbors no longer knew each other or watched out for the kids in the neighborhood and soon the influx of child molesters and drugs snuck into the neighborhoods while everyone stood out back on the deck and said, “not in my backyard”.

There were mothers in the neighborhood who knew my name and the threat of “Charles, do I have to call your mother/father” was enough to make me stop whatever it was I was doing.

Back then, a teacher could do the same thing.

Back then, the parents were in charge and VERY RARELY was the authority of ANY other adult ever brought into question.

We didn’t have Child Social Services and more of us lived than didn’t.

By Karen Armsby

December 2, 2005 04:20 PM | Link to this

Amazed, I didn’t say that teachers were always correct. I said that the ‘method ’ may be what they are teaching. You said you couldn’t learn the method, and complained to your parents, who then interfered with the teacher’s method. Amazingly, you are proud of that fact! Because, that is the problem we are talking about here; pushy parents who cave into their whining children, and instead of working with the teacher, go to the principal to make the teacher change!

And you think more than one method should be taught at onece????? The problem with education today is that teachers have to race through materials and students often don’t have the time to master one method, much less a plethora of methods all at once.

Sorry, you are wrong on this. Glad for your math gene, now if you had gotten a computer gene, then you could write one big program that would analyze all of your data, instead of you having to use all of your individual commercial programs. Expand your thinking!

By James McCoy

December 2, 2005 04:28 PM | Link to this

Charlie let’s face the real world here my friend,”Leave It To Beaver” was a good show when i was a kid in the 60’s. It is now 2005 and things are different,just that simple my friend

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

December 2, 2005 04:32 PM | Link to this

Jake, I’m involved at every level in my childs education. I’m sure that if you visited this blog weekly, you would know that.

I don’t feel the need to undermined the teacher or be the boss. But, I will NEVER - let anyone tell me what is the best method for myself or mychild to be successful at school or in life.

I pay my taxes and I am a homeowner, so I don’t have to homeschool or send my child to private school. I chose my occupation for the love and the salary that it brings. I’m sure you and all of the teacher on this blog did the same.

“Some of you” have the audacity to think, that just because you selected education as your occupation, you have more authority than I do when it comes to my childs education. I hate to take the parent versus teacher mentality today, because I respect most - but, I refuse to turn over my childs mind to just anybody. It is about respect and if the norm, is the attitudes of “some” on this blog - you must learn to respect parents as well.

I get the feeling that “some” of you think that parents just give birth and the child became a part of the school system. It may be true in “some” cases, but you had better learn to recognize “some”. Because, I am not one of them.

Don’t get me started today Jake. I will never delegate authority over my child to anyone, other than myself.

See you next week.

By HSTeach

December 2, 2005 04:33 PM | Link to this

Hahaha….teachers have authority? Right…if I truly had “en loco parentis” (sp?) as a teacher I would be able to “fix” the problem kids at our school. They wouldn’t be here any more. School choice would mean that the school chooses to teach those that choose to learn. End of story! High school would be for those that want to be educated. The kids want to fight, or sell drugs, or disrupt classes constantly, fine, go to alternative school or do the home school thing, but they are “CHOOSING” those routes by not “CHOOSING” to follow the rules set aside by teachers and administrators! Oh…and NCLB is just a way for the republicans to push their agenda to privatize education…..of course NCLB is going to fail, they set it up that way…no school will ever have 100% graduation rates (not even by 2014). And when it does fail, they’ll just have to say “see, we told you public education doesn’t work, now privatize!!!” Sorry, had to get that in there! And no, I’m not a democrat….I think bleeding-heart liberals are just as bad as those right-wing, fundamentalist freaks!!

By Gail

December 2, 2005 04:38 PM | Link to this

The idea in education that “One size fits all” needs to change. I agree with Amazed Independent Woman that there are some teachers who need to stop thinking their way is the only way. If the method is what’s being taught, that’s one thing. But requiring everyone to learn the same way is pointless if a significant number of the students don’t learn that way.

Let’s don’t forget that years ago during the so-called great 60s or 70s, while the one size fits all concept was widespread, kids with special needs were getting dumped into separate classrooms and ignored.

I’m sure someone is going to point out that schools are not set up to give a lot of individual attention to each student and I agree with that. However, if we don’t do something about changing the current situation in schools, we are headed for a serious downfall. Just because some kids don’t fit the “mold” doesn’t mean they should be sacrificed.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

December 2, 2005 04:39 PM | Link to this

Karen,

I have a computer science degree. You would have to know the various systems I work with, to know that there is NO one system to analyze all the data. There is No One size fits all for the madness I work with everyday.

No, a child should not have to learn multiple ways, they should be able to select the method that works for them.

I received an A and that’s all that matters. I use my unique math skills daily.

By Karen Armsby

December 2, 2005 04:42 PM | Link to this

Amazed, Good for you and have a nice weekend : )

By oldteacher

December 2, 2005 04:54 PM | Link to this

Wow, what great banter. It just proves that some of us are our own worst enemies. Just remember, life is not fair. Get over it.

By charlie

December 2, 2005 04:56 PM | Link to this

James, I didn’t grow up on “Leave it to Beaver” and I hated that show by the way.

Brooklyn NY was no picnic nor was it an idyllic “happy place” as depicted on the Cosby show.

More like “Welcome Back Kotter” without the absentee parents.

You’re right tho, things are different. Try having a family of 6 on ONE income while paying for a house, clothing and feeding everyone, making a car payment, utilities, phone, allowances, the occasional movie, etc.

My parents did it by sacrificing a LOT and devoting their lives to bringing up decent respectable children who succeeded in life.

The great American “Mine is bigger than yours!” mentality has made a LOT of people abdicate hard work for a quick buck, raising children to having robot prodigies, and enjoying the simplicity of a great neighbor to a security fence.

I’m not avocating that imaginary “simpler time” - - as it never existed except in Hollywood.

What’s the damn hurry that keeps us from stopping and saying “Hey, this ain’t working. You think we should sit down and figure it out, or should we continue to b*** about it?” knowing the truth but pretending it will work itself out so we can go watch something on TV since we don’t have a life of our own?

By b. white

December 2, 2005 05:00 PM | Link to this

I agree that special education students often cause major classroom disruption. Students who get little attention or the wrong kind of attention at home will act out at school to get the attention they so deparately crave from home. At my school students will act differently at school than at home and try to fit in with the crowd getting the most attention - usually the disruptive, disrespectful, and defiant.

By David200

December 2, 2005 05:03 PM | Link to this

Amazed (IW), I hate to disagree with you. You show a lot of interest in your child’s education. That alone will make your child a success; however, in my subject area, chemistry, when a child wants to learn using “their” way, I let them. When they say during a test, “I don’t know how to solve this problem using my way,” I simply say, “I know, ” and let them fail.

In many cases, there is only one way to solve a problem easily. Your way may take too long or be inappropriate. Algebra is easy; writing software code is easy; problem solving is hard. I remember an old axiom from business school. “When the only tool on my tool-belt is a hammer, all problems look like a nail.”

In most cases, we teach different methods so there are many tools on a child’s tool-belt. Only fight important battles. If you fight every battle as if it was the most important thing in the universe, you teach your child that nothing is important. Sorry, I don’t mean to preach. (Getting off my soap-box now)

By Just Plain Ken

December 2, 2005 05:23 PM | Link to this

Schools, whether public or private, do not exist in a vacuum, but mimic problems in society.

Very little accountability exists anywhere. And frankly, the few people who do exert some personal repsonsibility leave themselves vulnerable to people who do not.

Someone offended you? Sue them. Got fired? Sue, settle, and collect unemployment. On trial for murder? Blame Twinkies or “The Man”. Got a bad grade? Blame the teacher. Graduated as an illiterate? Sue the school.

A closely related and corrosive attitude is the envy that drives parents and (by process) politicians to demand “parity of results” without “parity of effort”. I’ll close by quoting a little Screwtape —

“In a word, we may reasonably hope for the virtual abolition of education when I’m as good as you has fully had its way. All incentives to learn and all penalties for not learning will be prevented; who are they to overtop their fellows? And anyway the teachers – or should I say, nurses? – will be far too busy reassuring the dunces and patting them on the back to waste any time on real teaching. We shall no longer have to plan and toil to spread imperturbable conceit and incurable ignorance among men. The little vermin themselves will do it for us.

Of course, this would not follow unless all education became state education. But it will. That is part of the same movement. Penal taxes, designed for that purpose, are liquidating the Middle Class, the class who were prepared to save and spend and make sacrifices in order to have their children privately educated. The removal of this class, besides linking up with the abolition of education, is, fortunately, an inevitable effect of the spirit that says I’m as good as you. This was, after all, the social group which gave to the humans the overwhelming majority of their scientists, physicians, philosophers, theologians, poets, artists, composers, architects, jurists, and administrators. If ever there were a bunch of stalks that needed their tops knocked off, it was surely they. As an English politician remarked not long ago, “A democracy does not want great men.â€?”

By Hannah

December 5, 2005 09:58 AM | Link to this

Amazed(IW) - I know that this is off-topic, but I must respond to your comments.

I am a math teacher (Algebra II). If on an exam, I ask them to solve using the Elimination Method, or solve using the Substitution Method and show all work, if they get the correct answer but didn’t follow the directions - they get one point for the answer and lose the other 4 for using a different method!

It is important that they learn the methods that I teach them because as someone has stated - “their way” may not work all the time! I have had parents balk at this, but, I justify it by saying that they must learn to read and follow directions for every facet of their lives.

By MMM

December 5, 2005 10:09 AM | Link to this

Excellent discussion—especially the quote from the screwtape letters. I’m sorry I didn’t notice to put my oar in earlier.

The respect given to teachers is very much a part of our culture, and this has changed both over time and between different social classes. At a IPTSA meeting at my school last Friday the families sat at tables based on country of origin and each group was asked to share something of their culture with the other groups. The group from Burma showed how students demonstrat respect for their teachers. Every student stands and bows when the teacher enters, and any time a student passes in front of a teacher they duck their head—-much the way we would do if we pass in front of a movie projector. This is done ANYTIME a student sees a teacher—even if it is not in at school.

By Angie

December 6, 2005 12:58 PM | Link to this

These are very interesting comments. I am currently homeschooling my children, but I am looking to put them in public school. I am looking forward to continue working on my dissertation and teaching on the collegiate level. I taught a total of four classes entitled “Politics and Global Issues” on a Ford Fellowship. The classes were large, consisting of 30-36 students. The students came from all walks of life; poverty, working class, middle class, upper middle class, private school, public schools, etc… In getting to know the students personally (I still talk with some of them now and I taught almost three years ago), it seemed that students that learned to be flexible, got along with others and knew how to work independently excelled in college. Students that came from households where the parents fought their battles oftentimes did not know how to deal with their peers and teachers that had different perspectives and had difficulties analyzing data (thinking for themselves). Some parents do not know how to allow their children to fail (sometimes the best lessons come from failure) and want to protect them from the world. Some of the same parents that go in the classrooms now and say to the teacher there is another way are the same parents that are going to call college professors about their children’s grades. Life is not like that. You can’t call an employer for your child. Unless there is abuse, our roles as parents should be to teach our children that life is not fair, bad things happen to good people and assist children (not make the decision for them) in finding solutions to life’s problems.

Despite all the issues I have heard about schools I am looking forward to participating in the public school system. My husband is from Haiti and went to private and boarding schools most of his life until coming to America and going to one of New York’s toughest middle school, then moving to Long Island and going to a suburban high school. His exposure to different school systems has made him a believer in there is “no one size fits all” but that the free education system in the United States is great and should be used for what it is-to HELP parents educate their children. He is now a doctor and although we believe in homeschooling we also believe that our children should participate in the free educational system, or private school system since that is also an option. It is our believe that the educational system is a support system to the PARENTS. The parents are the first teachers. What the kids learn in school should be a SUPPLEMENT to what they are getting at home. If the kids were sent to school with the foundation of civil responsibility, a love for learning and a respect for authority alot of the problems we see would not be happeneing.

I also think that parents are over compensating in their children’s lives what they felt they lacked in their own. Kids are living their PARENTS dream so the pressure to succeed (based on parental definiations) are high instead of priorites of compassion and kindness. We are stressed out as parents and so much of our hopes are on our kids which is the reason we can not deal with anyone dealing us our kids are not living up to our standards. If our kids fail we have failed.

i have visited many schools and I looking to move in an area where the schools mission match our family mission/values. I am looking for a school where parents care and teacher and parents are not enemies. I have seen some impressive schools and it saddens me that those schools are not usually represented in discussions (only the ones that are not suceeding).

By Lee

December 8, 2005 11:44 AM | Link to this

Many people have opined about the change in society over the years. Remember the hippies and flower children of the 60’s? You know, the ones who were so anti-establishment and whose mantra was to “Question Authority.” Guess what, they are now parents and grandparents of the students now attending school. Little wonder that they now question the authority of the teacher and the school.

The schools and teachers are not blameless in this situation. Maybe it’s the information age we live in, but every time I read about a teacher having an affair with a student, or an honor student being suspended for having a Tylenol in their pocketbook, or an elementary student suspended for having a Tweety Bird keychain, I become more and more skeptical of our school systems. Also, schools have migrated away from academics and moved toward what I call social indoctrination (has anyone read a History book lately?).

I am a parent first and foremost. My first obligation is to my child. I have the right to question you and raise concerns whenever I feel necessary. It’s called due diligence.

Finally, my child must know that I will support her if she is in the right and that there are consequences when she is wrong. If this means that I question the teacher or school policy, so be it.

By V for Vendetta

December 14, 2005 11:09 AM | Link to this

I see what Lee is saying, but I also see the problem. Maybe these parents now ARE from the hippie anti-authority generation, but that doesn’t give their kids the right to be disrespectful. My parents, who were raised in the 50’s, would pop me upside the head if I ever talked back to an adult, yet most of my 9th grade students would have no qualms about smarting off to me or any other authority figure. Pathetic. That attitude will get you far in the real world. I promise. Imagine:

“Johnson, I asked for that report on my desk an hour ago, where is it?” “Screw you” “Fine, you’re fired”

Why parents put up with that crap and believe every word that comes out of their kids mouths is beyond me. Again:

“Mary, why did you fail that test?” “It was Ms. Wilson’s fault” “Well I am going to go give her a piece of my mind!”

Sounds funny, but I cant tell you how many times parents march into my school with nothing more to back them up than “my child said so.” I hate to break it to you, but most parents who would do things like that are idiots, and the apple doesnt fall far from the tree. Unfortunately, Lee IS right about the Tylenol in pockets and Tweety Bird key chains. Until we start getting some administrators, principals, and County officials who arent spineless jellyfish and slaves to the PC police, we will have to put up with that crap as well. Anyone wonder why there is a teacher shortage?

By DLT

December 16, 2005 09:25 AM | Link to this

Some of th teachers are the enemy especially when I arrive home and the phone is ringing off the hook with the teacher telling me my child has in school suspension because he left his pencil in his locker or because he brought a paintball magazine to school for silent reading.Get a grip at least he’s reading and you need to get a life if you think this book on paintball is a threat.