Get Schooled

By Had Enough

November 29, 2005 11:09 AM | Link to this

The administrators are afraid of the students and parents. Why do you think they are administrators? They could not hack it in the classroom so they went for a “coffee drinking” job. I do not blame them. Leave the teachers in the trenches, fighting the dogs. Yes I said it. Some students act like dogs. If a teacher needs help, tell him/her to work on their classroom management skills. Because “every child is ENTITLED to a free education.” Teachers are supposed to deal with it and like it, because they get summers off.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

November 29, 2005 11:22 AM | Link to this

How many teachers would call child services if a parent, such as myself, came to school with belt in hand for an incident such as the one outlined in todays topic?

I believe that a spanking in some cases maybe called for and should be done at the place where the incident occured as a reminder and clean-up would have been immediate. My child would have learned the art of drywall as a trade that day.

The teacher who sent this email, would not have a problem with my child, but if she did (we would have become best friends).

There are somethings a child just can’t get away with and being disrepectful, using bad words, eye rolling, flipping the finger, throwing things are only a few in my book.

Any administrator or parent who questions a teacher about a child throwing a chair or anything should not be tolerated. What would have been done had the child hit another child or the teacher with the object thrown?

By MMM

November 29, 2005 11:44 AM | Link to this

Speaking as a parent. We have seen the enemy and it is us. Not teachers, not administrators, but the parents who will attack the messenger—whether it is the teacher or administrator rather than listening to and backing the adults. Kids aren’t stupid, if they can trick any of the adults responsible for them into fighting, then they can do anything they please!

I understand that some children are more willful than others, but usually the nut doesn’t fall far from the tree. Problem behavior can be corrected only if all the adults work together.

By Robert

November 29, 2005 12:13 PM | Link to this

I have one suggestion to all teachers - join MACE! It is the only shread of hope that teachers have for any support. MACE is the closest thing that we have to a union…. and yes, I do think that GA needs a real teacher’s union to deal with all of the crap that is thrown at us.

A real union will not only support the teachers when we are mistreated, but will also help to improve our professionalism by insisting that we get real professional development (not the made up BS that the administrators give us) and proper pay.

By Miss Deja

November 29, 2005 12:32 PM | Link to this

Amazed, I sure wouldn’t have had a problem if you came into my classroom, belt in hand!

The rest of the class and I would go for a “bathroom break”.

As far as admins, not all are bad. I currently work for a great group of admins who were in the classroom for 10-15 years and who actually support their teachers.

By MomWithKids

November 29, 2005 12:33 PM | Link to this

There is most definitely a problem with the amount of instructional time being lost because of chronically disruptive students. If we have cameras on buses to monitor behavior and protect bus drivers, why not do the same for our teachers and the other non-offending students in the classroom? If administrators are going to call into question our teacher’s managerial skills and parents claim their little ‘Johnny’ or ‘Susie’ couldn’t have possibly thrown that chair through a wall, then they only need to check the cameras for the evidence. Offending students need to make reparations as do parents – monetarily as well as in labor time. I certainly hope that my children would never think that they were ever so self absorbed to have the audacity to disrupt a classroom, disrespect a teacher, or destroy school property because they were having some kind of a tantrum - they have been raised better than that.

Having said that, it does seem either because of a lack of administrative support and maybe even what they see as a lack of parental guidance and discipline in general, over time some teachers have become hardened and mean. Some have a real power problem; they can’t take it out on parents and administrators so they wield it on the students – and boy, do they ever. No consistency when dispensing discipline and sometimes, it seems, unfairly - if they are trying to teach these students honesty, integrity and ethics, it doesn’t make sense if on one day our teachers are instructing our children on character education and then hammering them down the next. Our students are being confused by the very role models that are supposed to be leading them.

By teacher

November 29, 2005 12:34 PM | Link to this

Robert, I wish I knew a/b MACE when I worked at a particular school in Atlantam Public Schools….I’m currently teaching out of state, but when I come back, I’ll surely be joining!

By Dan

November 29, 2005 12:42 PM | Link to this

Clearly a child throwing a chair needs to be suspended the parents notified etc. now I may be wrong but I would think that answer D would be rare in the case of a child throwing a chair through a wall. Discipline is clearly an issue but so is classroom management, for too long the schools teaching our teachers have promoted understanding and sympathizing instead of throwing the brat out of class. Don’t get me wrong, the parents still bear most of the responsibility, but I am quite sure some teachers have more problems than others due to classroom management skills or lack thereof

By William

November 29, 2005 12:46 PM | Link to this

It is unfortunate (understatement of the day) when an administrator does not back up a teacher. I have worked in schools where the admin. is too wimpy to stand up to parents and students. The result is chaos. Teachers do not teach, and students do not learn. Where I am currently, there are administrators who are entirely supportive, and they accept no ridiculous behavior from students or their parents. It is THE issue that must be dealt with before learning can occur.

By Jake

November 29, 2005 01:19 PM | Link to this

Your priorities should be to maintain discipline and order to protect yourselves and the other students from the unruly, the same reason we have police, although arguably they do very poorly at protection. Every school has extensive sets of written rules defining acceptable and unacceptable behavior, all you need to do is enforce them. Anyone that fails to enforce the rules should be subject to disciplinary action themselves. It sounds almost simple, but if I remember correctly the majority of you were sticking up for the poor old teacher that showed Elizabeth without permission. If you want protection under rules you need to support and enforce the rules yourselves.

By DB

November 29, 2005 01:23 PM | Link to this

Great topic! I love the sarcasm by Had Enough. At least I hope it was sarcasm. The sad part of all this is not how bad it is for teachers but how sad it is that we deny our kids the right to a REAL education by allowing them to do such things as throw chairs. A kid should be kicked out of school for the rest of the year for that. Most(not all) administrators blame the teachers for lack of control. It’s the exact same thing as putting hand cuffs on them with their hands behind their back and throwing them in the deep end of the pool. That’s what’s going on in most schools. You CAN’T throw a kid out of class. It’s actually against policy in most places. How sad. Most the time a kid acts up, the teacher has to suffer the consequences in the form of reprimand or calling parents or filling out paperwork. So many teachers just turn the other cheek. I guess it would make too much sense to treat kids the way they would be treated in real life. The kids learn they can manipulate the system and do whatever they want. Then they graduate with absolutely no skills, knowledge, work ethic, or civility. And we wonder why things are the way they are. Does anyone watch the news?

By Paul F. Scanling

November 29, 2005 01:23 PM | Link to this

In education, the cream does not rise to the top. The best teachers remain in the classroom because they love kids and can’t imagine doing anything that removes them from teaching. Adminstrators, even if they were good teachers, lose touch with what it was like to be a teacher. I teach at a private school where every single adminstrator, including the headmaster, teaches at least one course for that very reason. They stay in touch with kids as well as the difficulties of teaching. They are much more responsive to teacher concerns due to that.

Bad adminstrators are afraid of parents. When that fear drives the decision making process for anything, curriculum, extracurricular activities, and especially school discipline, then it is time to find another place to teach or another profession.

By DB

November 29, 2005 01:25 PM | Link to this

It’s time for the kids to suffer REAL consequences. That’s it. Then all the other MINOR problems in education can actually be solved.

By tchrlady

November 29, 2005 01:40 PM | Link to this

As a teacher, it hurts my heart to see the motivated, respectful, disciplined kids sit and have their learning marginalized while one or two students constantly disrupt the class with their antics. If I were a parent and saw that bored, over-it look on their face, I’d have my kid out of there in a heartbeat. It’s just a shame that motivated kids who do want to learn are sacrificed for the kids who are disruptive - and yes, I would try to move the kids around, but there’s no extra seats in this classroom!!!

By Teacher, Too

November 29, 2005 01:46 PM | Link to this

Our schools are a reflection of greater society. One of the biggest problems that I see is students don’t seem to know what is appropriate and what is not. Look at what they watch on t.v. and listen to. Look at their video games- they don’t know their boundaries, or even realize that boundaries exist! Then, for some students, look at their homelife. Students bring to school what they learn and see modeled at home (for the most part; I am aware that’s a broad generalization.)

Having said that, schools must regain their ability to discipline students. Disruptive students must have clearly defined consequences. One thing I have noticed in 17 years of teaching, many of today’s students do not know the concept of shame or feeling embarrassed when they have demonstrated poor behavior. Many times, their parents make excuses for them instead of holding them accountable for their behavior.

By jim dumond

November 29, 2005 01:51 PM | Link to this

Whoa Teach too,

Who is responsible for teaching respect? I don’t see that as a job of the school. The schools job is to provide an education. If a students acts out in ways described above they obviously aren’t there for the education. KICK them out and provide for those wanting an education.

By EW

November 29, 2005 01:54 PM | Link to this

Oh Jake please, get over the movie thing already… Anyway - let me throw another twist, what if this student happens to be a special education student? This child would not get the same consequences in my school because they are under the special education umbrella. I literally had to pull a 8th grade girl off of another student and push my panic button (for the first time in five years) because she went on a kicking spree, now - she has had numerous write up’s, been suspended at least five times this year and she SHOULD be at our alternative school location, however we cant send her because she’s special ed. So now she understands that she can pretty much do whatever she wants, we hired a paraprofessional to walk her to each class! Just her! What a waste of taxpayer money!

By Velatra

November 29, 2005 01:54 PM | Link to this

Amazed, you and I are on the same page for sure!!!! My children (ages 5 and 6) attend the school where I teach, and the other teachers and administrators know my tolerance for my children’s misbehavior. When my 6-yr.-old son was in the asst. principal’s office a few weeks back, the a.p. didn’t even want to let me know because he knew what was going to happen. As it turned out, one of my former students (who was absolutely horrible last year, ironically) happened to pass by the office and just had to report to me that “[my son] was in [the a.p.’s] office.” I marched around to that office, asked what happened, and marched my son to a secluded area where he got the spanking of the decade. Then, I marched him back around to a.p.’s office and went on back to my class. I could have made the excuse that my son has ADHD (as one parent in our school loves to throw out whenever her son misbehaves), but when he gets older, the police are not going to ask what his conditions are if he breaks the law.

I am saying all this to say that parents need to step up and support the schools by disciplining their children. If spanking works for you child, then do what you gotta do!!!

One other anecdote: A couple years ago, there was this student in my class (4th grade)who called another student a “d—-head”. I called his grandmother, who called his mother. His mother marched up to that school, called her son out of the class, made him apologize to the offended student, and promptly whipped his behind in the hallway. Needless to say, he never called anyone that name—or any other vulgar name—again in my class!!!

I strongly believe that if corporal punishment was encouraged again in schools, the discipline problems that teachers have would be minimal. All you have to do is to make an example out of a few (particularly the ones who think the world revolves around them), then the others will fall in line. Trust me—it worked when I was in school 20 years ago!!

By NC Teacher

November 29, 2005 01:56 PM | Link to this

OH BOY could I go on about this for hours! I teach in NC and the same problems occur here as I’m sure they do around the country. Continuos discipline problems, ineffective adminstrations, and lack of paretal support are going to bring the Public School Systems to rock bottom. I spend the majority of my day “babysitting”, easing verbal threats, breaking up physical confrontations, it is utterly ridiculous. When you give a kid an inch, they will surely take the whole mile! Suspensions need to be swift and consistent, especially if it is clearly stated in the board policies. If the offense warrants a suspesion, suspend them! I agree that many administrators are afraid of confrontation with students and parents which does indeed give you the sense that the kids are running the schools. Teachers should be able to fill out Administrator Evaluations both mid-year and End-of the year. Teachers are evaluated, why not administrators? I actually had an administrator say to me “we have a low-tolerance policy here”, while kids are screaming and running up and down the halls. Well that’s great, but how about a ZERO tolerance policy??? This is not rocket science!! Parents and students need to be held accountable for their actions. But too often they are sent back to class with a little slap on the writst and an apology for you while smirking behind your back and planning their next offense. These students have too many rights and they know exactly how to work the system. And people wonder why a good number of teachers leave the profession within their first 5 years. Schools are losing great teachers due to lack of support and also to the fact that parents today don’t think they have to actually parent their kids….they think the school should do that! And I actually had a parent say to me over the phone when I called her about her son’s behavior, “well while he’s at school, he’s your problem.” Pretty much sums it up, huh?

By EW

November 29, 2005 02:00 PM | Link to this

All I know is that I feared my elementary and middle school principal. Some of my 8th grade students don’t even know who the principal is… Tells you a lot about his administrative work.

By I_Teach

November 29, 2005 02:08 PM | Link to this

A few minutes ago, when I began my ‘free planning time,’ I ran into a colleague who was on the verge of tears. A VIOLENT student, who is a constant disruption, was once again at it, and she was literally fearful for her safety. The male teachers in neighboring classrooms also felt threatened.

Did I mention this is a 5th grade student?? Pretty scary stuff.

I told my colleagues this: When we begin to make students’ discipline problems INCONVENIENT for parents, then the problem will come to an end! Out of school suspensions make lives difficult for parents, however, go a long way in helping. If parents are inconvenienced enough, then maybe they will step in to do something about a child’s disruptive/dangerous behavior.

Wasn’t there a provision in the “A+ Education Reform” that allowed teachers to refuse to have disruptive students back in their classrooms? It is time to start utilizing that little provision….!

By jim dumond

November 29, 2005 02:10 PM | Link to this

Hey, great idea. Expel all unruly students.

Now that would help schools meet their AYP.

Yep, kid ain’t cutting the grade just accuse them of being disruptive and ship them out

Now there’s a plan that’s sure to meet teacher approval, assuring the teachers raises for meeting AYP.

Get real folks. Get the kid some help.

By abc

November 29, 2005 02:13 PM | Link to this

Bring back corporal punishment in the schools. It worked when I was a kid. They’d have large wooden paddles with holes drilled in them to lessen air resistance. It might sound primitive compared to prevalent political correctness today, and completely impractical, but… it worked pretty well back then, and instances of teachers overstepping obvious boundaries were relatively rare.

By EW

November 29, 2005 02:17 PM | Link to this

No Jim, what about having the parents come to school everyday to sit with her child as a condition that she be able to stay until she exhibits proper behavior. Yes, let’s make it INCONVENIENT for the parents instead of having the other 25 + students suffer valuable instuctioanl time because of this student.

By RF

November 29, 2005 02:17 PM | Link to this

Jim- what help would you suggest? It’s easy to say “get the kid some help” when we’re on the outside looking in. Most likely this kid has been in and out of counselors offices and school programs. Most likely the parents refuse to get involved or are as bad off as the kid. Usually behavior like that is symptomatic of bigger problems than we can ever hope to deal with in a school day. And why should we have to? Schools are here to educate-i.e. give kids skills for success in the real world. There’s not enough money, resources, or time to ‘get some help’ for a kid who is violent in the fifth grade. What “help” can his teacher provide? And what about the impact this terror of a child is having on classmates who want to learn? Please, please let me know how exactly his teacher and school should go about getting him some help.

By jim dumond

November 29, 2005 02:20 PM | Link to this

Are you familar with the Gwinnett County Juvenile intervention program that puts first time offenders inside the walls at the detention center?

Its quite a program and has been known to open a few eyes. Kids go in all joking and smiles and come out with a whole new perspective.

By Velatra

November 29, 2005 02:25 PM | Link to this

I_Teach, amen!!!! Parents definitely do not like to take time off their jobs (which “messes with their money”) or have the arduous task of finding someone to “keep” their children while on suspension. I’ve been saying the same thing you’ve said for years now. Unfortunately, though, you have administrators who won’t suspend kids because it “messes up” the record they have to report.

Can you believe this: I am pregnant, and one of my 4th grade students told other students that he would kick me in the stomach and kill my baby. He was angry because he raised his voice at me, and I put him out of my room. Although he didn’t say it to me directly, he got ONE day of ISS. Just imagine if I’d said the same to him. I would have been the local headline on FOX 5.

By RF

November 29, 2005 02:37 PM | Link to this

Velatra- all too often we think fourth graders can’t possibly mean those things. Then they become middle and high schoolers who fight all the time and end up bringing guns to school to solve their problems.

By jim dumond

November 29, 2005 02:40 PM | Link to this

@ RF

The program I’m talking about works something like this.

, I understand they are met, processed and taken in. Paraded in front of the general population, cat calls and all, treated like inmates by staff, shown the wonderful living accommodations and then get to set through a couple of lectures by inmates, murders and rapists, that explain how life really is. They may even get invited back by a few inmates who’d love them for an extended stay. Know what I mean?

I’m sure it entails a bit more, because when the kids come out, they aren’t talking about it. But by the same token, law enforcement quite often doesn’t see the same kids again.

By RF

November 29, 2005 02:48 PM | Link to this

Jim- I’ve heard of programs like that, and I agree they’d help change a lot of kids. I haven’t heard for sure how many kids Gwinnett or others have sent through this kind of program, but I’d definitely like to see it publicized more. “Scared straight” is the idea there, and it definitely gets through to some. I think a fifth grader like the one mentioned earlier would likely benefit from the experience. Maybe we should take the parents in too and give them a little wake up call. It amazes me how many troubled kids there are out there who have bad parents who face no real accountability.

By jim dumond

November 29, 2005 02:52 PM | Link to this

School property = public property.

Destruction of school property = Destruction of public property

Destruction of public property = Misdemeanor

Threats to do bodily harm = making terroristic threats

making terroristic threats = Felony in most states

Why aren’t these kids being prosecuted?

By RF

November 29, 2005 02:57 PM | Link to this

Jim- believe it or not, a child under the age of 10 can’t be prosecuted in this state, as I’ve heard it. And it depends on the school/system as to how seriously threats are taken. I’ve worked for principals that took them seriously and some who tried to sweep everything under the rug. There’s not a lot of uniformity- and there should be. Obviously since Columbine, 9/11, et al, we take threats much more seriously in general, but you’d be surprised how little can actually be done to an elementary aged child.

By NC Teacher

November 29, 2005 02:59 PM | Link to this

Jim-

I also agree there are some great programs out there for these kids. Two problems though, unfortunately there aren’t enough of them, and two, you have to jump through 50 hoops and cut through miles of red tape before you can actually get a student considered for one of these programs. In my experience, a student has to display everything short of killing someone before being considered. We as teachers KNOW which students should go into these programs. But instead of nipping it in the bud, they can’t be considered UNTIL they’ve committed these horrendous offenses. Does this make sense?

By Gary

November 29, 2005 03:00 PM | Link to this

The problem with disruptive kids these days is we, as a society, are babying them. I am tired of the same old: “little johnny is not doing as well as the others, but we have to pass him so that he will feel special” or “thats alright Dennis, keep talking during a class lecture because the government says we have to be more tolerant, even to the disruptive kids” People we have to start being parents and letting our children know that teachers and classmates deserve respect. We need paddling back in schools, allow teachers to discipline the child, and administrators to back them up. We need to also make our children aware that failure will not be tolerated and they must work hard and learn so that they can get the best out of their education. My parents did this and I had no problem with respecting my teachers, administrators, or fellow classmates. The problem today is we allow the government to have full say of our school systems. We need to take government control away and allow the local communities(a mixture of parents, teachers, school admin, and local businesses) to put together an education plan for schools and have the proper training for all teachers regardless of tenure. This would mean that schools would have a more business approach and students will learn and those who disrupt will be disciplined. All children are entitled to this kind of education, but if the unruly make learning a problem, then they need to be dealt with. This is why I and my wife are thinking about private schooling our child. Private schooling is right now the better option. Public schools have too many hands wrapped around them.

By Velatra

November 29, 2005 03:11 PM | Link to this

A couple of years ago in my previous school, there was a student (yes, another 4th grader)who habitually violated school rules. The police was called up to the school so much that it became routine. He would physically attack students and teachers, cursed out the principal, stalked a student in his neigbhorhood, destroyed property, etc. You name it, he did it. Because I had a digital camera, I was called out of my class so much to take pictures after his many “episodes” that I thought I was on “CSI”. I was beginning to consider a career in forensic photography. He even threatened to shoot “all the teachers [he] didn’t like” one day. Finally, in MARCH of the school year, he was sent to an alternative school.

The sad thing is a record of his behavior began when he was in SECOND GRADE. In third grade, he brought a machete to school and got 10 days of suspension. But, because he was a special education student, he could only get up to 10 days of suspension when he was in fourth grade, despite the numerous offenses.

HadEnough, I really hope you were being sarcastic in your post. If you weren’t, how do you feel about teachers receiving combat pay since “it is our job”?

By jim dumond

November 29, 2005 03:13 PM | Link to this

RF & NC teacher

All it would take is a few school adminsrtors with some “huevos grandes� and a judge that would send them through the program.

From what I understand, parents are allowed to accompany the child but I’d wager a stronger impression would be made if the child see’s just how alone they’ll be if they continue along the same path.

By Robert

November 29, 2005 03:26 PM | Link to this

The BEHAVIOR of students IN GENERAL has degraded a GREAT DEAL. Schools cannot suspend all of them. Otherwise there would only be about 30% of the students actually in school.

PARENTS need to teach THEIR CHILDREN how to behave and to respect their elders. That alone would go a long way in our society and in our classrooms.

By jim dumond

November 29, 2005 03:29 PM | Link to this

I don’t have a problem with teaching only 30%. Do you really?

By Had Enough

November 29, 2005 03:31 PM | Link to this

Velatra, yes, that is sarcasm you read. I taught for one year and that was enough. I truly salute all teachers who tough it out every day.

By notso

November 29, 2005 03:36 PM | Link to this

Let me see if I can sum all this up.

Kids have no respect, responsibility, are able to walk away from murder,are ill mannered and have no accountability.

That sum it up?

Excuse me! just remember whose at fault and don’t forget when you’re pointing a finger you have 3 pointed back at you.

By Velatra

November 29, 2005 03:38 PM | Link to this

Had Enough:

Hahahaha! I was beginning to wonder. But, the sad thing is there are people who do feel that way. They actually think that because we “get the summers off” that we should just suck it up. Of course, it’s the ones who never set foot inside a classroom.

I’m probably in the minority, but my best year was my very first year of teaching. I actually didn’t want the Christmas holidays to be so long because my students were absolutely wonderful and I missed them! Of course, since then, I’ve awakened from my dream and actually count the days until the next “time off.” Hahaha!

By Teacher, Too

November 29, 2005 03:40 PM | Link to this

Education is a privilege. If you repeatedly abuse the privilege, then there ought to be severe penalties. Students who vandalize the building should have to perform community service cleaning graffiti, mopping floors, scrubbing bathrooms, etc… Maybe if the discipline was more worthwhile, then students’ behavior would improve. (Twenty years ago at my high school, disruptive students had to fill bags with rocks and then put the rocks back- wasn’t fun!).

Part of the problem with the discipline we have available is that students enjoy being suspended- especially if the parent is at work! Wha-hoo- unsupervised time to play video games, listen to the I-Pods, and watch trash on t.v.

By notso

November 29, 2005 03:47 PM | Link to this

WHAT? Where’d that come from? “Education is a privilege”

Not according to the government we elected. Education is a right and if we can’t make the dumb kids smarter we’ll just dumb down the smart ones so that everyone gets the same education.

Great plan that NCLB.

By Mike

November 29, 2005 03:47 PM | Link to this

When I was growing up, our principal had a great strategy for dealing with troublemakers (prior to his last resort of kicking the kids out of school):

1> Schedule meetings with the parents during the day (generally the father if he was around). Forcing the parents to leave work & deal with the issue got their attention a bit more.

2> We did employ corporal punishment. Very effective to have your butt smacked occasionally (can testify from experience).

3> Require the troublemaker to work in the lunchroom. Forcing someone to cleanup after their peers can be a humbling experience.

By Teacher, Too

November 29, 2005 03:54 PM | Link to this

Oops- that first sentence should have read, Education should be a privilege.” (Even rights can be taken away- look at people in prison; they lose the right to vote, among other things.)

By jim dumond

November 29, 2005 03:56 PM | Link to this

Mike, I must agree. Those would be some great deterrents, but in today’s society you’d be sued for lost wages and mental anguish.

No, if a child breaks the law, prosecute them, period.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

November 29, 2005 04:02 PM | Link to this

I believe the reason you have to jump through hoops to have an undisciplined child placed into special programs, is because it would be used as a daycare for students who talk too much or other minor infractions.

A child throwing a chair should be placed in a special program, so that he/she can learn to control their anger.

I don’t agree with out of school suspension for middle school and above, because they can stay home alone and get into more trouble. They should be sent to a special school, one for every county, where the parents have to drive them to that one central location. The school should be vigorous and setup like boot camp, uniform and all. The kids could be made to clean the place, cook and serve their own lunch. I would extend the school day to start at 7:00am - until 5:00pm. I think they would become rehabilitated very quickly.

By Teacher, Too

November 29, 2005 04:06 PM | Link to this

Amazed, I really like your idea. I do think that would have kids thinking twice about their behavior once they’d “been there and done that”! And if they were late, they automatically get another day.

By Ernest

November 29, 2005 04:11 PM | Link to this

Let me come at this from another angle, based on personal experiences. It is right to reprimand a child for something they did not do? During my oldest younger years, when he got in trouble for talking and other mischevious things, we’d get a behavior sheet, and he’d get punished accordingly. Sometimes we asked what he did so we could explain the proper behavior, and he would say ‘nothing’. It turned out many times he’d get ‘group punishment’ even though he was following instructions. Being the kind of parent I am, I complained and got the ‘reputation’ of covering up for my child. I’ve got a problem with ‘group punishment’ yet many teachers seem to subjectively apply them. It makes it tough for a parent because how can I teach them right from wrong when doing right is deemed wrong at times.

What strategies would you recommend for teachers that punish groups rather than the offending individuals?

By HSTeach

November 29, 2005 04:32 PM | Link to this

Umm..you asked your child what they did, they said nothing…..and you believed it…there’s the problem right there….especially if you think your angel of a child never does anything wrong…what’s wrong w/ handing out group punishment if the entire group was misbehaving?? to many kids, “nothing” is actually what they equate their behavior, or off-task behavior, to. sure, to them, hitting someone is something, but disrupting class by talking, to many kids, is nothing….and to my students when they get in trouble for disrupting class, “I’m a bad teacher b/c the class is boring….”…but nothing they did was wrong…..the onus is on the parents and the kids….still….

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

November 29, 2005 04:37 PM | Link to this

Group punishment works, because it allow kids to keep each other in check. No child wants to be punished because of two bad apples, so the rest of the bag, will keep the two bad apples in check.

Also, the group will punish the two bad apples for their misdeeds. I hear about it all the time, from my daughter. She constantly makes sure that her two neighbors in class do not talk, because the entire table will be punished if they do.

I don’t have a problem with it, because it encourages team work.

By me

November 29, 2005 05:23 PM | Link to this

Both of my boys know that if I have to come up to school for a discipline problem where they are at fault, that right after my meeting with the administration we will go and find a broom closet and have a real discussion behind closed doors. They know what this means. They know what type of behavior is acceptable and/or not acceptable, period.

Amazed (IW), sometime group punishment works and sometimes it doesn’t. There is a young man in my youngest son’s 2nd grade class who is very outspoken and gets his class in trouble on purpose, knowing the entire class will punished. He is very happy when all the others are in trouble along with him. It seldom works with our permanent teacher, however; she is out due to an extended illness:( The substutite has a problem handling the class and he works her like you can imagine. Finally, one day my son took the blame for something he, (the outspoken boy), did and ended up walking laps a recess. After recess, he told the sub what and why he fessed up and told her it wasn’t fair for the whole class to be punished for what the outspoken one did. She told my son he was very mature. However, the outspoken boy is still outspoken and tends to get away with his disruption. To me, the outspoken boy’s parents are THE issue. They seem to be fine with meeting with the administration on a weekly basis. At least there is a bright spot - he’s not throwing chairs.

By b. white

November 29, 2005 06:03 PM | Link to this

Hey - When parents complain to a teacher the teacher should tell them, “This is the best you’re going to get for free!”

By Karen Armsby

November 30, 2005 08:10 AM | Link to this

Amazed, I am surprised by your support for group punishment! Group punishment is unfair and demoralizing to the children who follow the rules and behave. They should not have to take on the burden of policing their peers and “keep each other in check.” That is the responsibility of the adult teacher.

By J.T.

November 30, 2005 09:02 AM | Link to this

It’s a shame we live in such a miserably litigious society today. Teachers and administrators find themselves with their hands tied regarding the issue of discipline. When I was in elementary school in Sandy Springs in the 1970’s it was a different story. We weren’t beaten or even paddled, but there was a certain teacher who practiced a form of ridicule-based punishment that worked very well. It also left me (nor, dare I say any of my fellow students) permanently mentally or physically scarred, yet it did go a long way in ensuring compliance with the rules (back then guns and drugs in elementary schools weren’t an issue - attire and behavior were thought).

In this teacher’s class: If a boy’s hair was too long (covered his eyebrows), she used masking tape and taped it out of his eyes.

If a girl’s skirt was deemed too short (subjectively based), then mural paper and safety pins were employed to “lengthen” the skirt.

If a student chewed gum in class, he/she had to put in on his/her forehead.

These punishments were repeated as necessary and remained for an entire school day. If the student or the parent didn’t “get” the message, then a note was sent home. There was no discussion. Parents and students were expected to (and did) comply. This was a public school. The argument could be maintained that if a parent/student insisted on dressing inappropriately or behaving inappropriately then they could certainly attend a private school where that behavior would be accepted/tolerated. Since such schools don’t exist, the kids eventually all fell in line.

There’s no reason that such “punishment” couldn’t take place today. As far as I’m concerned our modern society is nothing more than an institution where the patients are running the asylum.

By J.T.

November 30, 2005 09:04 AM | Link to this

Please forgive the error in my previous blog. I meant to say that we were NOT permanently physically or mentally scarred by the ridicule-based punishment.

By Ernest

November 30, 2005 09:28 AM | Link to this

HSTeach, I believe you either misread or misunderstood my post. My child told me when he did something wrong and when he did nothing. Believe it or not, there are parents that point out to their children they will get in trouble twice for lying. I’ll be the first to admit he’s not angel but he’s not the devil either.

As with any profession, most teachers are VERY good. There are some that do not have good behavior management plans. There are some that get intimidated when parents ask questions (such as myself) and subtlely take things out on the child (this is a minority of teachers). Admitted, my appearance can be intimidating as a ‘first’ impression but as all teachers found out, my interest was to be supportive.

I don’t like group punishments, especially when the entire class is punished for the actions of one or two. This has been my experience with one or two ES teachers. IMO, this is the easy way out rather than addressing the problem. As indicated, it makes it harder for me as a parent to explain right from wrong when a child is punished because of the actions of others.

By oldteacher

November 30, 2005 10:01 AM | Link to this

Group punishment do not work well with middle school students. Sometimes their behavior just gets worse. I guess I have good classroom management skills since (thankfully) I have few discipline problems. We also have great administrative backup.

By MomWithKids

November 30, 2005 10:09 AM | Link to this

I agree to an extent, group punishments are unfair but peer pressure can also be a deterrent in many ways. No one wants to be responsible for making the class have to have extra homework or sit in complete silence because of their actions – after awhile, that student will be ostracized or the teacher should place the child in some sort of detention if they continue to act out for attention.

It is ultimately the parent’s responsibility to send a well behaved, respectful, non-violent child to school to be educated. It is unreasonable to expect teachers to go to school and spend their time fending off students with issues. Children are in school for an education; special ed. or not – what about the rights of the regular ed. kids? I have a special ed. child and that doesn’t always mean what that infers. They may have a particular learning disability or problem that means they are included in a team taught class with other special ed. kids; but does that mean any child has the right to interrupt instructional time by being violent or otherwise chronically disruptive? No. This is where inclusion, in some respects bothers me. It is going to get worse before it gets better…

There is so much wasted instructional time in a given school day; our teachers are asked to be so much more than just instructors. Walk a mile in their shoes for just one day; substitute teach for one day as an elementary, middle and high school teacher – you will never be the same.

By HighSchooler Parent

November 30, 2005 10:27 AM | Link to this

As the parent of a high schooler who has seen his share of discipline, the issue is not so much CLASS discipline but rather BETWEEN CLASSES discipline. The kids are free to torment, harass, and otherwise be cruel to one another becuase it’s a free for all for 10 mins. And those between class issues carry into the classrooms, only to start up again right after class. My child has earned a few time outs, but he’s endured far more from his “teasing” peers.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

November 30, 2005 10:43 AM | Link to this

I speak from experience, because I was raised with group punishment in the home. I was used to this method at home, that it did not phase me at school.

Any punishments my sister, cousins and I received - we had all decided before hand, that we would accept the punishment. Fortunately there was only one true adventurous cousin, but he quickly learned that it was better not to make the group mad. Not only that, he couldn’t cry out, because that would mean punishment for the group.

There were not that many punishments between middle school and highschool.

We shared those stories with our kids on Thanksgiving and we apply that method when we are all together.

By Ernest

November 30, 2005 10:46 AM | Link to this

HSP’s post is also a reason why many educators like Block Scheduling. Fewer classes during the day means fewer breaks between classes. This should mean less opportunities for ‘mischief’. While Block Scheduling is not good for schools desiring more AP offerings, it appears to help with discipline.

By dee

November 30, 2005 10:52 AM | Link to this

Children that are disruptive usually have parents to match. And for some reason, these same parents have contributed monetarily to the school and the administrators will not do anything to make them mad.

By SET

November 30, 2005 11:09 AM | Link to this

I’ve got another solution.

In some large California School Districts there are Police Officer’s permanently stationed in Government High Schools due to the critical danger posed by gangs, drugs, sexual assaults, etc. The “children” are often actually adults over 18 as they have been held back several years due to reading at 6th grade level as a “high school” student.

When an intruder or a “student” commits a crime the redident police officers are called by radio or alarm system. The criminal is handcuffed and removed to juvenile hall - which often releases them on an ankle bracelet to their home. They are summarily suspended and if they don’t go away (most of them do) they are routinely expelled.

Throwing chairs through windows or gouging the sheet rock is a crime - vandalism. This kind of behavior is nuthouse behavior. What we are discussing is not a school - it’s a government nuthouse.

Most of these disfunctional kids have no place in a normal school and should have been screened out by entrance exams. It doesn’t matter to me where they go or are sent as long as I’m trying to run a “school”. You can’t run a “school” and have illiterate savage criminals roaming the grounds.

Our government schools need a mission statement which includes what they are NOT there to accomplish and what they are NOT tolerating. Entrance exams will make the point also. I believe there is a correlation between 6th grade reading levels at 10th grade and savage and promiscuous behavior. We need to eliminate as much as half of the students in the urban high schools to save the other half.

The lower functioning children must be sent down elsewhere - vocation schools, military schools to try to qualify them later for the army - or penal institutions so they can get acclimated to prison life and be kept from reproducing.

They would be happier and the remaining students would be a civilized environment where learning is possible.

And Teachers should not have to live like this anyway.

By John R. A. Trotter, Ed.D., J.D.

November 30, 2005 11:23 AM | Link to this

It does not matter what the curriculum is if the students are bouncing off the walls. As we have stated over and over at MACE, you must first have good teaching conditions before you can ever have good learning condtions. The two are inextricably linked. Discipline is the dark underbelly of public schooling in Georgia — and in other states, for that matter. Administrators do not want to deal with it. It takes fortitude and perseverence to get a good handle on the discipline in the school. I know. I have been there. Discipline should be the major focus of any decent administrator. But, most of today’s administrators want to deal with “instructional” issues, and they had rather write up the teachers for being deficient in “classroom management skills” when the teachers complain that the administration does not support them in the area of discipline. The truth of the matter is that a handful of hellions can effectively disrupt any classroom. Administrators who cannot see this or who prefer to bury their heads in the sand so that they cannot see this are not worth their own salt. The schools actually run better when these spineless admiinistrators are away on a conference. This is no joke. The schools run better when these gutless administrators are gone. Fellow teachers can actually help out each other better than these kiss-up principals. So many of these administrators secured their jobs because the central office administrators were convinced that they would be non-threatening and easy to control. But, they know nothing about how to run an effective school. The first thing that a good school has is order. A school that is truly good is also a school which has strong discipline. In actuality, the large majority of the parents and the students, deep down, want strong discipline. However, it is the loud, vocal minority which scares these wimpy administrators. The teachers are in the trenches each day. They are the only true “educators” because they are the ones who actually interact with students on a daily basis. However, they are also the ones with whom the educrats, policy-makers, and legislators do not consult when they are are planning changes in educactional policies and practices. Do you think that practicing physicians would be consulted if major and substantive changes were being planned in the field of medicine? Hmm. No, classroom educators are treated with total disregard in Georgia. That is why MACE is there advocating for them and them only. You too can be empowered by going to www.theteachersadvocate.com. John R. A. Trotter, Ed.D., J.D., Executive Director of the Metro Association of Classroom Educators. P. S. I personally know the MACE member who submitted this blog topic, and judging from its comments, it looks like it is a very timely topic. He is right. Discipline — or the lack thereof — is the only issue right now in the public schools of Georgia. However, most of the so-called educational leaders (and certainly the polls-driven politicians) and educational organizations apparently do not feel comfortable addressing this all-important issue. When our generation was dealt with swiftly and surely (and sometimes even rather severely) when it came to discipline in school, we survived and are not emotionally scarred. The very last thing that today’s children need in school is coddling. This coddling-to-appease approach is having devastating effects.

By Velatra

November 30, 2005 11:29 AM | Link to this

“The very last thing that today’s children need in school is coddling.”

AMEN, “Dr. J.”(aka John R. A. Trotter)!!!!!

By DB

November 30, 2005 11:58 AM | Link to this

I totally agree with SET and John R.A. Trotter. We’re damaging our kids and society by coddling and making excuses. Expectations have dropped so far that the average person is almost unable to think or act in a civil manner. Teachers and schools need to once again regain authority in order to properly educate the masses. As I’ve been saying for years, it’s time to take out the trash and stay firm with expectations. Set behavioral and academic expectations high, and make kids reach them, period. Those that don’t respect an education have no business being in a school, and that only wastes our money and makes the problem worse anyway. They should be in some other setting that takes them away from their terrible parents(entire situation) and provides the structure, love, and work ethic they need to turn things around. It should emphasize earning everything you receive. When they learn to act appropriately and respect education, i.e., mature, they can have the choice to attend mainstream schools or start working.

By 2teach

November 30, 2005 12:11 PM | Link to this

One of the many other problems not yet mentioned is that you don’t have to have an “explosive” child in your classroom to cause disruption. Due to the “tolerance” of exteme behaviors, disruptive behavior from the average child has also elevated. Our “well-behaved” student of today, would have know the principal on a first name basis 20 years ago. Unfortunately, teachers are spending so much time handling and documenting the more extreme behaviors, that the slightly less disruptive acts from our “well behaved” students get shoved under the rug.

I don’t advocate an office referral for every little disruption; however, I will say that those constant/chronic little things add up to a lot of lost instrutional time after a while!

By 2teach

November 30, 2005 12:15 PM | Link to this

sorry for the typo, I meant “instructional” time

By SET

November 30, 2005 12:48 PM | Link to this

I had a typo - thr phrase should say “resident police officers”.

25 Years ago I was a sub teacher in a Suburban School District doing mostly High School work. That District made it clear to me that any referral from a sub was an automatic 3 day suspension. In general all of their schools were orderly and the teachers there never had anyone throwing a chair around the classroom because that student would not have returned to a normal school for years, if ever. There was an “alternative” school for misfit children.

I talked about conditions with the various principals and teachers. There was never a doubt in anyone’s mind that the school district would not tolerate open defiance from students. Students who were so damaged or frustrated that they were physically disruptive dissapeared. We were not in business to have them in a normal school. There were other places for them - including jail.

I limited my sub work to that district. I refused to work for the Urban School District. Other subs worked for multiple districts and I heard their stories about which assignments to refuse. The Urban District started paying more for subs and still they had trouble getting subs to take their calls. I had a post graduate degree and found I was in demand. I will remember the experience all my life but I didn’t remain a teacher.

Several of my relatives in earlier generations were teachers. I think they were tyrants. They operated as if they were filming “Lean On Me”. Funny, they had students keeping in touch with them all their lives. They were proud of the fact that when they got through with their students those kids could survive whatever the military (back in the draft days), College or the job market could throw at them. They were not in business to be loved or to be popular.

Compared to them I was a nice guy. Still am.

We are not as tough with the younger generation as our grandparent’s generation was. We need to be. The world is still dangerous, it just looks easy. The kids aren’t being prepared for what is coming.

By Think about it

November 30, 2005 01:25 PM | Link to this

I can’t tell you how many times I told my two boys, 14 & 11, that I don’t care if they aren’t rocket scientist, they can darn well behave in school everyday! God and corporal punishment are present in my house – we don’t have disciplinary problems. Has anyone notice that those two elements have been missing from the schools for years? My, my, just look at the problems the schools now have!

Bring back corporal punishment. If the schools are so afraid of being sued, have the parents present for the spanking. It will show the student that they can not behave that way, show parental support f or the school. It may also make the parent mad enough to take a little initiative of their own!

By s

November 30, 2005 01:36 PM | Link to this

I hear all kind of areas of school problems,but zero on guns at school,courts are not doing anything even for these offences,1 kid got probation,,,,does this mean zzzzzzero tolerance and not even a special ed kid so what do you think is going to happen to a student who throws a chair…the parents and the enabler etc.courts ,if you are an a.p. and have teachers sending all of the office refurals ,and you have 25 or sometimes 50 backed up because of meetings you have to attend then even the adm.have to determine the order to importance of these unruly kids. Add all this to to 4 times for these other ap,and assts.

By Taxpayer

November 30, 2005 01:50 PM | Link to this

At the beginning of the school year, a kid with a history of bad behavior all the way back to middle school kept rubbing up against and fondling girls, including my daughter. We met with the AP ONCE and demanded that she take care of the problem. She demurred, saying that she could not do anything unless a witness corroborated the girls’ accusations. We told the AP that we were going to report this boy to the police for sexual assault if she didn’t do anything — and we would have. When the AP saw that we were serious — and that many other parents were lining up behind us — she took action. The boy’s parents were FINALLY called, and the boy was threatened with suspension. He has not bothered my daughter since, but if he does, I will report him to the police. Schools want to keep all their discipline problems hushed up, but after all, there is no difference between being beaten or assaulted INSIDE a school and OUTSIDE a school. No one should be afraid for his/her health and safety inside a school. Forget the administrators and their concern about maintaining a facade. I say call the police, talk to other parents, contact the school board members, and MAKE NOISE if any child is posing a threat.

By jim dumond

November 30, 2005 02:02 PM | Link to this

“Schools want to keep all their discipline problems hushed up”

NCLB at work my friend.

Sexual assults will put a school on the PD list real quick.

By NC Teacher

November 30, 2005 02:04 PM | Link to this

Well the bottom line is EVERYONE has the fundamental right to a SAFE working environment. The kids have a right to a SAFE classroom and one conducive to learning. When those are compromised, the APPROPRIATE action needs to be taken. The consequences are not fitting the offenses. And then they just continue. I have a student (spec Ed.) who threw a few punches at me, brushing my hair and almost hitting me full force in the head. Then he took one of his sneakers, cocked it back behind his head and threatened to hit me with it. He was suspended for 9 days. The alternative school said he didn’t do enough to be placed there. Our higher-ups in the spec ed dept didn’t think he should be switched to another school…”next time he does something like this” they said. So after the nine days, where do you think he came back to? YEP, my room. He is on half days, where he still comes in, completely non-compliant, refuses to do anything. I really just don’t have the words to describe how p** off I was. Needless to say, I take many “mental health” days and will continue to do so. Transfer forms come out tomorrow and I will look elsewhere. I know people say “the grass isn’t always greener”….well it’s poop brown here so green seems like a nice color right about now.

By jim dumond

November 30, 2005 02:06 PM | Link to this

Taxpayer,

You do realize of course that these charges are required by law to be reported by the schools, don’t you.

5 will get you 10 it wasn’t reported.

I think I’d not have let it slip by with a warning to the student. Doing so just helps schools cover up the fact that they are Persistantly Dangerous.

If these crimes go unreported, a disservice has been done to every student in that school.

By Jake

November 30, 2005 02:14 PM | Link to this

SET, SET, SET!!! Get the bad kids away from the good, what a wonderful idea. But ‘Think about it’ should forget about it. You must like that old testament god with the eye for an eye, et al. Do you really think if you just preach a little gospel and beat children often enough and hard enough they’ll see that violence is wrong? What a novel concept.

By Taxpayer

November 30, 2005 02:15 PM | Link to this

Good point, Jim Drummond. I did send e-mails to every school board member, every name I could find in the school system discipline department, and a host of others. But you are right. I will follow up to see if these incidents (there more than a dozen!) were ever reported. Thanks for the nudge.

By Good Lord!

November 30, 2005 02:15 PM | Link to this

How in the world is a union going to help? BULL!!! More of the tax money already spent on education should be spent on hands on activities for all ages and teacher pay and less on the Central Office!

By Think about it

November 30, 2005 02:19 PM | Link to this

Did I say anything about God in the school? No I didn’t - I was talking about spankings. I said it was in our home. There is a difference. We teach right and wrong in our home. Too many people today obviously DON’T.

By SET

November 30, 2005 02:37 PM | Link to this

Jake:

“Violence is the authority from which all other authority is derived.” Robert Heinlein. (Starship Troopers)

That phrase was delivered in a High School Class by a Teacher as the book unfolds. It’s also used in the movie version, I believe.

It’s as true today as it has been throughout recorded history.

Heinlein books were required reading in my high school. I found them very helpful whenever I was tempted to feel sorry for myself for letting something happen to me that I didn’t like. His books argued that one should take care of their own problems and make their own luck - and carry your own bags.

This is the opposite of what the Government Schools teach today.

I support armed (of course) City Police in the Government’s Urban High Schools. I’m not sure I’d trust the bureaucrats to whip kids. They are too PC corrupt. They have no morals left.

Maybe some Jewish mothers could be found to volunteer. I like Judge Judy.. Had several friends with mothers just like her. The kids grew up tough and on their toes. If they misbehaved, and they did on occasion, the planning was with military precision.

By teacher and parent

November 30, 2005 03:17 PM | Link to this

Contrary to what’s been posted here in this blog, it is entirely possible to raise respecful, polite children who behave without beating them into submission.

By jim dumond

November 30, 2005 03:24 PM | Link to this

Contrary to what you think you’ve read.

I don’t believe anyone is advocating beating all children—just those that aren’t respecful, polite children who behave

By dee

November 30, 2005 03:26 PM | Link to this

The teachers should devise a way to demand protection for themselves and other children in the classroom. May even take a law suit. School board is not going to do anything. Will have to come from another source

By Think about it

November 30, 2005 03:55 PM | Link to this

My children received spankings - not beatings - when they were small. The age they were last spanked was when they were both about eight - respectively. They don’t need it now because they learned that there will be consequences for ill behavior. Now they think a little more before doing something they know will receive a reaction from us, their parents. They are not angels, but neither are they ill behaved, trash talking, chair throwing individuals that do not know how to behave when they leave the house. They have respect for themselves and others. If they were to act in school as stated in some of these postings, they would expect repercussions.

There are no expectations from a large majority of the students in government schools – because who cares? They flunk out; the government will continue to take of them one way or another. Guess who pays for it? Not the people that thought it was too much trouble to be consistent and teach them right from wrong in the first place – their family. It’s a lot of work to do the right thing day in and day out, and too many people today just won’t go to that trouble.

If these kids have gotten to middle and high school and see that they can get away with this behavior, it’s going to take a lot of time and trouble to turn it around. You up for the job?

By jennifer

November 30, 2005 04:03 PM | Link to this

A little story: A girl in my daughter’s high school class was messing around throwing chairs, paper, and flashing the lights on and off along with a few other students after the teacher had to leave the room. Much to her surprise when she turned around there stood her mother, mouth opened, witnessing the entire event. The mother took off her belt and spanked the girl in front of everyone. Guess what? When she got home she got another whoopin. Problem solved.

Another short story: A boy in the same high school was refusing to do his homework so his father put a sign around his neck stating that he does not pay attention in class and he does not do his homework. The sign also said for anyone witnessing the boy taking the sign off, messing around, or if the sign is found to call the number listed on the sign (the father’s cell phone number). Problem solved.

Some of this may seem extreme but they were not the first tactic the parents used to try to get their kid’s attention. Extreme actions by kids call for extreme measures by parents.

I feel sorry for the teachers I’ve seen who have had to put up with students threatening them and to my surprise their parents are no better and usually blamed the teacher by saying something like, “You know how he gets when you try to make him sit down.” Hey, if the child has a problem sitting down perhaps it should be from a sore butt.

By jennifer

November 30, 2005 04:06 PM | Link to this

Btw, I just read the post where someone feels some of us here “beat” our children. My children are far from being beaten so you can stop that thought process. However, if they needed spanked then they were spanked when everything else failed. Spanking has never been my first action but it was certainly the last action I had to take because from then on out they did as they were supposed to.

There IS a difference between spanking and beating.

By Grammy

December 1, 2005 08:27 AM | Link to this

“What would have been done had the child hit another child or the teacher with the object thrown?”

Let me tell you what happened at my daughter’s school last year…she was teaching (12th graders) and one female student started mouthing at another female student (interrupting the class) and after several loud and rude comments, the first female student got out of her seat and started to approach the other young lady…my daughter (the teacher) stepped in front of the first female student and tried to redirect her into the hallway (without touching her) only to find herself the recipient of a fist to the jaw…that’s right, the student hit her in the face with her fist…and you know what type of punishment the student received? Three, 3, days of out of school suspension…and the student and her guardian (grandmother) wanted to press charges against my daughter for undue stress (student was 8 months pregnant with baby #2)…Go figure! Big deal, summer’s off with this type of violence, one needs more than summers off!

By Velatra

December 1, 2005 09:30 AM | Link to this

Grammy,

One question: why didn’t your daughter press charges against the student AND sue the school system? I am sure the student was old enough to be charged as an adult. Pregnant or not, she crossed the line!!!

I posted earlier about a student who indirectly threatened me (I am pregnant), and I told him that if I so much as hear that he said that he was going to do anything to me or unborn child again, I would press charges against him. He knows that I’m not playing with him. On this issue, my thinking is: if you fool me once, shame on you; if you fool me twice, shame on me.

By Velatra

December 1, 2005 09:38 AM | Link to this

PREDICTION:

If they don’t bring back and enforce a strict code in America’s schools, we teachers are going to have to teach in a plexiglass booth like those that are found in convenience stores.

Can you imagine it? The booth would have a microphone to address students and a panic button for when “trouble” arises. Assignments would be turned in through the little slots at the bottom of the glass. At least the chances of teachers being hit by thrown chairs and pregnant students would be slim or nonexistent. ;-)

By Amy

December 1, 2005 10:32 AM | Link to this

I haven’t researched this, but I’m pretty sure that education, just like school bus riding, is a privilege, not a right under the constitution. We need to educate today’s parents about that fact. It’s simple, like raising my children, abuse the privilege, lose the privilege. I’m just happy my kids are out of public education now. We need to go back to what worked 20 years ago.

By SET

December 1, 2005 10:39 AM | Link to this

Some of these postings make me wonder if the tactic of endless litigation may help.. Put the school and the student and it’s parents on written notice when the kid crosses the line into criminal behavior. File formal police reports whenever criminal behavior such as sexual battery and assaults occur, and Sue Sue Sue.

I hate to say it but the Government beureaucrats that run these nuthouse schools really are cowards and they tend to collapse under litigation. Sometimes just the threat of litigation is enough to get what you want. The opposition has known this and used it to their advantage for years now.

If the school won’t expell or transfer violent and threateneing students you can ghet court orders against them and their families restraining them from coming onto the school grounds. This accomplishes the expulsion end the end. You can name the parents for damages and file wage attachments if they work. Even if they don’t the judgements get into their credit bureau files.

It sounds like trench warfare against the rotten apples and against the school bureaucrats but maybe it will work. If the school officers try to stop you from making the sexual assault reports (when other children are victims not just the teachers) file criminal charges against the bureaucrat individually. It’s a crime in most places to threaten in any way one who reports or seeks to report a crime. Likewise Grand Jury complaints have been known to shine a lot of light on whatever a bureaucrat is covering up.

Teachers should not have to live this way. But if the conditions demand it I suppose you have to fight fire with fire.

By Laura

December 1, 2005 11:30 AM | Link to this

Corporal punishment in schools is alive and well in 20+ states. In some districts parents cannot even sign a waiver exempting their child from getting licks. It doesn’t make much difference.

Trying to decide what to do with individual kids acting out is a case of not seeing the forest for the trees. There is a fundamental problem with our education system and these disruptive kids are just a symptom of that problem.

By Velatra

December 1, 2005 11:39 AM | Link to this

Laura:

Question. Which “doesn’t make much difference”? Corporal punishment or the waiver to administer it? Thanks.

By Laura

December 1, 2005 01:09 PM | Link to this

The use of corporal punishment does not decrease behavior problems in the school. The fear of licks doesn’t stop kids from acting up.

By KATHLEEN

December 1, 2005 01:16 PM | Link to this

Patti,

And the people said A-MEN! My mom is a teacher and has been teaching for 41 years now and some of the stories she has shared of her day-to-day experiences would curl your hair. Suggested solutions:

Teachers, kudos to you and the hard work that you do and God bless you!

By Velatra

December 1, 2005 01:17 PM | Link to this

Oh. Well, it depends how the “licks” are given. If I were a betting person, I would bet my paycheck that if enough bottoms became sore, then things would be better. Trust me!!! ;0)

By Lee

December 1, 2005 01:17 PM | Link to this

You people are forgetting that public schools are government bureaucracies run by bureaucratic administrators. All the policies and procedures are established and scrutinized by the school’s attorneys to protect the system. The welfare of the student and teacher are way down the list of priorities.

Case in point. Zero tolerance policies make for good sound bites and make the public think that the administrators are “getting tough.” In reality, they protect Principals and other administrators from having to make a decision. They simply pull out the policy manual and tell you that their hands are tied - they agree with you and it doesn’t seem right, but the policy says they must do such and such. Conversely, after dealing with a couple of moronic Pricipals and Superintendents, I can see why the school boards want to insulate the system from these administrators making decisions.

To Grammy, I can tell you why the Principal didn’t call the police when the student attacked your daughter. That kind of action would get the school placed on the Persistently Dangerous list very quickly. The administrator is throwing your daughter to the wolves and protecting the system. Also, unless the school administrators request police action, the police are very reluctant to pursue criminal action against a student. In effect, that principal just became judge and jury and decided the only punishment your daughter’s attacker required was a suspension. Bullcrap, per Georgia Code, there are additional penalties by law for those attacking an employee of the school system. Sounds as though the only course of action for your daughter at this point is to get a lawyer.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

December 1, 2005 03:55 PM | Link to this

Grammy,

Unless I’m misunderstanding, it sounds as if your daughter stepped right into a moving fist. However, it sounds more like she accidently struck the teacher instead of the student.

I think the student should have been punished for stricking anyone, teacher or student. Not only that, but she should have been in an alternative school; if the school system has such a program.

By Grammy

December 2, 2005 08:32 AM | Link to this

Amazed(IW): You are way misunderstanding! In NO way was this an accident, and for you to “assume” that my daughter stepped right in front of a moving fist is so typical of people these days…it is always the fault of the victim! For your information, the student was mad that she was not able to get to the other female student, so she hit my daughter and at the same time she was getting hit in the jaw, the student told her, “get out of my way, b@#$%”…now does that sound like my daughter “stepped right in front of a moving fist”? NO! But you sound just like the parents of these out of control kids, it is always someone else’s fault, mainly the teachers!

As for the other posts about pressing charges…at the time the incident took place, the SRO, school resource officer, an actual county police officer was called in and a report was “supposedly” filed. My daughter was told by him that charges would be filed…to this day, she has heard NOTHING from the county regarding this situation. This like so many other things, was probably swept under the carpet so that quotas and percentages aren’t affected. As for hiring an attorney, it wouldn’t do any good, it isn’t like anything would come of it…the county actually allowed this girl to continue with her education at an alternative school, but then offered to let her come back to graduate with her class from the school that this took place in…what message did all this send to the other students? I will tell you what several of my daughters other students said…”Wow, I can hit my teacher anytime and only get suspended 3 days”…

There is a good ending to this for my daughter, she found another job at a private school where they don’t allow parents to make the rules and has left that horrible other school behind…and she sees how education is and should be…with students and parents that want better for themselves and their children!

By Karen Armsby

December 2, 2005 08:45 AM | Link to this

Grammy, Your daughter should have filed her own complaint at the police station. Why do teachers feel like that they don’t have the same rights as other citizens to have the law enforced when students break it?