Get Schooled

By NotMyProblem

November 16, 2005 10:50 AM | Link to this

Absolutely. My spouse and I moved out of Decatur and into East Cobb and the Pope HS district as soon as we got pregnant, knowing that not only will the property taxes stay high there, due to the absence of any public transportation or apartment complexes in that area, but also because the quality of education at Pope is so superior to that of any other school in the metro area, especially those in high minority population areas. These areas tend to have low-income housing and uneducated single parent families who place little or no value on educating their children, and we wanted to be around people who share the same high standards for our childrens’ education. We are thankful every day for making that decision, as we watch the value of our home go up every year and read about the successes of the children in the schools in our area. We saved our money and made sacrifices to move to a nice area and it was the smartest thing we’ve ever done. We do have some blacks and some other ethnic people in our neighborhood, but they all share the same ambitions and desire for a safe community and educated children that we do. We don’t worry about guns at school, gang activity, and we feel safe walking around our neighborhood at night, none of which we could say about our old neighborhood inside the perimeter.

By NotMyProblem

November 16, 2005 10:52 AM | Link to this

Oops! My first sentence should have said “Absolutely. My spouse and I moved out of Decatur and into East Cobb and the Pope HS district as soon as we got pregnant, knowing that not only will the property VALUES stay high there…”

By ernie Logman

November 16, 2005 11:10 AM | Link to this

Why is it called “White Flight” when whites move from a declining area. I call it democracy in action since the people are voting with their feet.

When schools are perceived to be bad or in decline, white people will vote with their feet. They don’t hold protest marches, or try and keep newcomers out like the residents of Kirkwood did when their neighborhood was improving thru gentrification, they leave.

They vote with their feet because to do anything else you risk being called a “racist” or an “anti”

When someone no longer feels comfortable where they live because the signs for businesses are in a foriegn language, or the crime rate has increased, THEY MOVE. it is the smart thing to do.

By Nancy

November 16, 2005 11:18 AM | Link to this

I am currently house hunting after being in my neighborhood long enough to see my child through elementary, middle, high school and college. The schools were adequate during my time becaues I and others encouraged parental involvement.

My area in DeKalb continues to loose whites, but as the whites leave, a minority with different values move in. It is not enough to move into a house for the sake of home ownership. Improper maintenance, lack of respect for folks who have lived in the area for a long time, lack of interest in the upkeep of the greater community, and parents not teaching their children how to act all make a difference in a neighborhood’s climate. Fear of lower property values and low morals in others make folks want to leave an area.

If people who are ready to leave established neighborhoods would not use the Section 8 program to add to their net worth and sell the property at fair market value instead of lowering prices to get out, that would help also. Even when folks rent to unsavory tenants, neighborhoods change.

As a long time volunteer in my area, my local school will lose a PTA member, youth advocate and the county loses my taxes. I hope someone who cares will take my place.

By Funky Gee

November 16, 2005 11:22 AM | Link to this

We moved too. Nothing wrong with wanting to be among neighbors who share the same socio/economics as me. Who knows what these peoples’ priorities in life are. Why find out the hard way. Who says “diversity” has to be?

By Robert

November 16, 2005 11:23 AM | Link to this

I am not sure that “white flight” is an appropriate description any more. There is all types of races that are moving farther out. Look at how far away many upscale black neighborhoods are - and extending even further out southward.

People are leaving the city to escape high home prices/cost of living for the most part. There may also be some flight due to percieved high crime, but that excuse really is not reality.

By HSTeach

November 16, 2005 11:36 AM | Link to this

Ummm….black (and hispanic, and asian, …) families that make enough money move to where the better schools are….not just the white people. It’s too bad that counties like Dekalb and Athens-Clarke don’t stop building lower-income housing. That is what happens. The more lower-income housing you have, traditionally, the poorer the schools in that district perform…not saying that is “true” for all districts, but people know enough about this to move when they see the signs. My parents, thank god, moved our family out of Clayton county in the early 80’s and into Fayette county…they almost went broke doing it, but the education my brother and I received was definitely worth it!!

By Vermin8

November 16, 2005 11:42 AM | Link to this

Question - why is “white flight” so bad?

I think it’s racist to judge a person for their color, ethnicity, etc. I don’t think it’s racist to move because of declining quality of life (crime, traffic, graffiti) or because the school is not serving one’s needs (many children need advanced math and science, not English as a second language - although since I’m not familiar with the local school systems there may be some that provide both; I don’t know). I chose a neighborhood that had stores I prefer within a close distance (eg, PetSmart, Barnes & Noble). I see other races & cultures shopping there - that does not bother me. I would bother me to live in a neighborhood where I would have to drive several more miles to get to these stores.

One thing hit me with Ernie’s post - there is a push against declaring English as the official language. I don’t object to that - if the foreign population grows such that their native language becomes preferred, so be it. But by the same token, native English speakers should be able to exercise their language and their cultures. So if someone leaves because they don’t want to learn a foreign language in a neighborhood, so be it. My point here is that white flight is often perceived as bad or racist (although the article did not state that outright) but efforts to preserve “white” culture are also considered racist.

By scruggs

November 16, 2005 11:57 AM | Link to this

This is currently affecting our neighborhood in Smyrna. We live in a neighborhood with 100 kids under the age of 6, and we’re one block from our elem. school. The vast majority of parents in our ‘hood are college educated and many have advanced degrees. We have been seeing the parents of 4 year olds become concerned about the elem. school and move to, surprise, East Cobb or opt for private school. The relatively new principal has a great reputation, and he has held info sessions for our residents where he’s brought along various teachers. So the talk around the ‘hood now is that its not the elementary school they are worried about, its the middle school. Thus folks are still moving. It seems if all of these kids of education minded parents start attending the schools, so much could change…but no one wants their kid to be the guinea pig. My spouse and I are products of public schools through grad school and want our toddler to be able to just walk a block to school. Now will we start to second guess ourselves, and move in 3 years?

By Tired Teacher

November 16, 2005 11:57 AM | Link to this

The sad reality is that in area schools where there is an abundance of public housing, there is an abundance of generational poverty. This situation leads to a population, sometimes a high one, that doesn’t give a damn about what teachers are selling in the schools. Students are there because their friends are there or they must be there because their probation requires it. Hey, and free breakfast and lunch. Unless you have a student who is tracked in one of the gifted programs and pulled out of their classes for advanced instruction, they spend their day watching the lunatic fringe of society run wild in the classroom and hallways. There is no discipline or respect in schools. Along with hip hop and gangsta rap came complete disrespect for authority or anything the teachers are selling. Even if a teacher is black they are considered to be playing the white mans game. It’s a different society with very different values. Who could blame parents from wanting to move to an area where other student’s parents expect and encourage a college track, where success is expected.

By a.d.

November 16, 2005 12:08 PM | Link to this

Come on, lets face it, everything we do these days is considered racist. If you move your family out of a declining area your a racist. If you want English taught correctly, to ALL students at your school your racist. If you speak out against crime, human “warehousing” in your neighborhood your a racist. If you want only legally licensed drivers on the road and legally registered voters in your community your a racist. Unfortunately the list goes on and on and on.

By It is your problem

November 16, 2005 12:08 PM | Link to this

In a response to “Notmyproblem,” white flight is your problem. I, a black woman grew up in Cobb county and attended one of the better high schools there. In speaking to the principal of one of these high schools after graduating from a top University, I told her that my success was because of her high school. She said “not at all, your success was because of you.” I also felt robbed of any cross-cultural dialogue and diversity in my education. All black people are not gang members or gun-toters, but such a belief is indicative of the “white flight” mentality. I think it is a disservice to so many people in the South that, as soon as someone sees someone different, they run to a “safe haven” area like East Cobb. In my travels since living there, I have found there is much better education, even in “diverse” areas of other cities. But, yet and still, people believe the only way to get the education they want their children to have is to insulate them from the diversity that will become part of their daily life, which I find sad.

Also, the idea that educational motivation is tied to socioeconomics has racist leanings. I have worked with low SES, minority students across the country and, yes, they too want to learn. Maybe if their parents could just move at the drop of a hat to a better school district, then they would have better access. However, people so scared of diversity, closed-minded, and narrowly focused are part of the reason the public school systems in inner cities are the way they are today. So, it’s not your problem now, but at some point, it will be.

By B. Swift

November 16, 2005 12:14 PM | Link to this

Hate to burst the bubble of folks who have moved hoping for better public schools; Georgian in generally have a poor record of supporting public education. Yes, too many parents of various incomes do not properly teach respect for education and for teachers, but your legislature has some responsibility for the generally poor standing of the public schools in Georgia.

By john wesley

November 16, 2005 12:17 PM | Link to this

If there is a such thing as white flight then there is definately Black flight too. Look at neighborhoods like Southeast DeKalb County, and Southwest Fulton County. These communities contain scores of upscale Black families who moved out so far for the express purpose of being around other Black people. Black flight is caused by Blacks wanting to be around other Black professionals and white flight is caused by whites wanting to find better schools for their kids. MLK High in DeKalb and Westlake High in The Sandtown community in Fulton are decent but they would be alot better if the Blacks in these communities would stop sending their kids to private schools. As a matter of fact, Riverwood High in Sandy Springs and North Atlanta High in Buckhead would also be accpetable schools if the whites there would stop sending their kids to Atlanta area private schools. People complain about bad schools in their area but they refuse to put their kids in those schools to make it better. Whether we like it or not, more affluent kids are going to do better in school than lower class kids. This is life, maybe because the affluent kids have educated parents who know the value of a good education. In any case, the public schools wont get any better if parents keep taking their kids out of school.

I dont realy understand why some white parents move thier kids to certain school districts claiming that they will get a better education. Like all the schools in Forsyth, Cherokee, Hall, North Gwinnett, and Paulding Couties are not even nearly as good as the schools in Cobb, North Fulton, and Fayette. A couple of high schools in South Dekalb are better than schools in these far out counties. So while parents say they are moving their kids to better schools, I think many of them are sadly mistaken in their motives. Perhaps many assume that an area with a large white population will have superior schools. I cant say. But for those of you that assume that majority black high schools must be bad schools look at North Springs High School in Sandy Springs, Campbell High School in Smyrna, Lithonia High in Lithonia, MLK High also in Lithonia, Druid Hills High School in Atlants, and Stephenson High School in Stone Mountain, and tell me what you find. You cant say that a school is going to be bad just because a minority population is in the majority there. F.Y.I. Woodward Academy has a 25% Black population and I dont think that school is suffering.

By Angry White Boy

November 16, 2005 12:19 PM | Link to this

Robert - Take the rose colored glasses off dude. The article is about white flight and states quite clearly white enrollment is down while brown and black and yellow are skyrocketing. And if you think the violent crime and property crime rates are the same in Dunwoody as they are in say the sweet Auburn neighborhood, well that ‘really is not reality’. Whitey is on the run because of the immigration policy and the vast difference in birth rates. It’s really that the blacks and browns need more space because there are more and more of them every year.

By Anita

November 16, 2005 12:21 PM | Link to this

Who CARES what makes one race move where? Is anyone as tired of the ‘racist’ blogs that keep our minds focused on the wrong thing? If you wanna move…MOVE. If you wanna stay..STAY. If you are uncomfortable in a neighborhood, evaluate yourself and see if YOU are the problem and if indeed there is anything you can do to elminate the problem. If you can’t fix it, or see a change coming..MOVE. No one owes anyone an explanation for their decision to finance the biggest expense anyone will ever make. Touting racist and vague stereotypes to make yourself feel justified is ignorant and ridiculous. I live near all race categories including vietnamese and we ALL have our ways. None are any less irritating than the other. Its called respecting differences, staying within the law and homeowner association bylaws, and moving on when those differences can’t be tolerated. But you can move to the moon, please be prepared to move again because somehow, someway, someday, someone is always gonna move in YOU might not approve of.

By cassandra

November 16, 2005 12:29 PM | Link to this

I hate to break it to all of you but if any of you are moving to different areas to have your kids to go to better public school, you should know that your kids are still going to be screwed. Georgia is number 50 in education in this country. Mississippi, the poorst state in the Union, has higher performing schools than we do. Even top ranked schools like Walton and Chattahoochee are only the top in the worst school district in the country. They still dont compare to the public schools in the north and out west. I say, if you can afford it, place your kids in private schools. This is not California, it may be the only hope your kids have at a decent education.

By ad

November 16, 2005 12:38 PM | Link to this

Cassandra check the demographics and median incomes of the population of the schools out west and up north of which you refer.

By SET

November 16, 2005 12:44 PM | Link to this

I love seeing these epithets on the blog, such as “racist”. Do the users think their saying it means anything?

Anybody with an IQ over 110 which excludes a LOT of some people will move away from people with an IQ of 85 which includes a LOT of some people.

The Federal Constitution carried a freedom of association. That means the freedom of disassociation.

There is NOTHING in the Federal Constitution about forcing people who don’t want to be around you to have to tolerate your presence.

This mess we are all in today would not be so bad if actions and behaviors had quick consequences. Forced integration removes any incentive for anyone to behave. The rest is history. Whatever races are involved in whatever nation or century is irrelevant. The results are always the same.

People should have to earn their way into society. That means no crime, single mothers, lying, violence, malt liquor, crack, etc.

It’s not racism to avoid these things and the people who tolerate them. It’s self preservation. White Flight is a predictable response but the Black Upper Class ran from the Lower Class Blacks first and farthest.

By Y.T.

November 16, 2005 12:46 PM | Link to this

Cassandra,

Those schools up north & out west are overwhelmingly caucasion, thus the higher educational rankings. No immigrants and Black attitudes and baggage to lower the standards.

By SET

November 16, 2005 12:47 PM | Link to this

Looks like we have to avoid using words starting with the letter a followed by two s or the computer with replace everything after the first letter with an *.

By cassandra

November 16, 2005 01:05 PM | Link to this

For those of you who think that the schools up north are better because they are rich and white, tell me why rich and white areas do not have the best performing public schools in the state? The most affluent zip code in the southeast, 30327(with an average home price of $964,000) has two public high school options: North Atanta if you live in the city and Riverwood if you’re in the Sandy Springs setion. Why are neither of these schools even near the top of the best public schools in the state. Disctricts like Walton and Pope are mildly middle class compared to the residents that live in this area! Explain this.

By scruggs

November 16, 2005 01:12 PM | Link to this

Cassandra: I would guess if you can afford a $964,000 house in wealthy 30327, making $250k+ a year, then $16k a year per kid for private school is probably little sacrifice for your household. Thus, why those near North Atlanta and Riverwood overwhelmingly opt for private.

By Angry White Boy

November 16, 2005 01:17 PM | Link to this

YT - Northern and western schools are not as predominantly white as you seem to think unless you define north as North Dakota and West as Nebraska. The farm belt middle is pretty white, but New York and Michigan and Ohio certainly aren’t and California is the only minority majority state in the country. What they don’t have is the inbred black and cracker gene pools of the Deep South.

By jakesdad

November 16, 2005 01:21 PM | Link to this

because people who own $900K homes in 30327(/8) don’t send their kids to Riverwood. they send them to Holy Innocents, Davis, etc. that’s why we left 30328 for 30068 (Walton). we could afford private school but for the $ it seemed like a better idea to buy a nicer house across the river.

By mechelle

November 16, 2005 01:23 PM | Link to this

I agree with John Wesley, my husband and I are in the process of moving from Cobb Co. to the Camp Creek -Cascade area to be around other professional blacks. That is what we choose to do, and I don’t think that is racist.However, I was thinking, how is it that the homes in that area are close to $1 million dollars but high schools such as Weslake have the poorest school scores…you are right the answer is that most of the children who live in that area…go to PRIVATE school. Why is that? Obviously the parents can afford to live in that area. So, why do they still prefer to send their kids to private schools….could it be that the education in that area sucks..but the homes are fabulous…..

By Ernest

November 16, 2005 01:23 PM | Link to this

Let me throw out another term for consideration, ‘bright flight’. I believe this touches on what several have said, people that are seeking a school district in which many of the families have a similar ‘education value system’. People of all colors are impacted by this. Socioeconomic status plays a role in whether some are able to move to ‘better’ school districts. That’s where programs such as magnet come to play, hopefully providing opportunities for those who cannot afford to move.

Having said this, I’m not naiive and believe a combination of white flight, section 8 and low income housing, and real estate agents played a significant role in the make up of our school systems in the metro area. I’ve heard of some school districts around the country ‘dividing’ lower income housing areas between several attendance zones in the name of socioeconomic diversity. It would be interesting to hear what some bloggers think of this possibility.

By ad

November 16, 2005 01:28 PM | Link to this

AWB is a perfect example of why I left my neighborhood….and this discussion. Not Color, Income, Notherner , Southerner, etc. etc. just plain ignorance. OUT

By john wesley

November 16, 2005 01:29 PM | Link to this

I really dont consider it racist to prefer being around people who are more like you, whether that be people of your same race or class. As long as we all know that the world outside of our communities is a muticultural one, and we know how to respectfully interact with others who are not like us, I dont see what the problem is.

By Anita

November 16, 2005 01:33 PM | Link to this

“People should have to earn their way into society. That means no crime, single mothers, lying, violence, malt liquor, crack, etc.

It’s not racism to avoid these things and the people who tolerate them. It’s self preservation. White Flight is a predictable response but the Black Upper Class ran from the Lower Class Blacks first and farthest.”

YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING!!! I suppose there are no single parent White mothers or fathers in your world? Do you even bother to watch the local news where Meth factories are being raided in WHITE neighborhoods? I also suppose that we should not count the endless times Gwinnett and other White Public schools failed to report ALL the violence to the GA Dept of Education each year. I also guess the numerous school shootings by Whites makes you all feel safer huh? Lying? We don’t even want to begin to touch that statement since everyone from Martha Stewart to the WHITE house has been found guilty of this act. Like I said before…ignorant stereotyping is a waste of time, counter productive and only encourages the belief that hatred is alive and well forever in the USA.

By parent

November 16, 2005 01:42 PM | Link to this

In Rockdale County we are experiencing our own version of white flight. It is also being driven by a rapidly declining school system. We have seen a rapid rise of black and brown students over the last 6 – 7 years. The ITBS scores as well as the SAT/ACT scores have shown a corresponding trend to the % of white students. The most telling statistic is how much of a decline Salem High has shown in the % of students receiving a 3 or better on the AP exams. It has gone from 68.4% of test takers to 49%. The % of white students has declined from 77% to 56% over the same time period. A review of the above measurements over a 10 year period would show an even greater decline. The unfortunate reality for us, is that our kids cannot continue to get a quality education when surrounded by so many underperforming children. When faced with similar trends across the school system it is much easier for white parents to give up and move.

By 2 can play that game

November 16, 2005 01:42 PM | Link to this

I’m black, and if my neighborhood started to become run down, I’d hall azz too! I see no racism in living where you prefer….geesh people!

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

November 16, 2005 01:43 PM | Link to this

SET: You are well below just being ignorant.

Anita: Don’t waste your time. People like SET are blind to the things that happen in their own neighborhood. His drug of choice is METH, you can tell with his statements. LOL

By Amy

November 16, 2005 01:46 PM | Link to this

Looks like you can’t use a word that starts with f and has a u after it either, like further. Thank you SET for clearing up the mystery of the a* words. Perhaps if we start putting spaces in between. “a s s u m e” or “f u r t h e r”

The schools in our area are one reason why we homeschool. I have one neighbor who is moving before her son gets into middle school and I can’t really blame her. When a significant portion of the school doesn’t even speak English then a good portion of the teaching staff is going to have to be focused on helping those kids. That leaves the ones who do speak English with less staff resources to help them prepare for high school and college. And, no this is not just a one language problem. In our area there are dozens of foreign languages spoken.

By bob

November 16, 2005 01:46 PM | Link to this

After five years in Gwinnett County we moved back to the midwest. In five short years the forests around our neighborhood disappeared for apartment complexes and shopping malls. The drive to work went from 35 minutes to 65 minutes. The school resources went into English as a second language and special support for the bottom students, my average kids were ignored.

Back here in a town of 120,000 there is plenty of diversity, plenty of open spaces, and the school my elementary age kids attend has @ 400 students rather than over 2000 we saw in Gwinnett. I live on the outskirst of town and my commute downtown takes 18 minutes. I met more folks on my street the day we moved in than I met in five years in Gwinnett. No one here tries to run you over on their way to soccer practice or Starbucks. No daily headlines of stabbing, shootings, and home invasions.

Of course, it is 17 degrees outside right now with light snow falling, but every day after scanning the AJC headlines I feel great about moving back to a sane pace of life. Folks in Gwinnett and the ATL are pushing, shoving, and rushing so fast to get the good life they end up missing everything worthwhile.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

November 16, 2005 01:48 PM | Link to this

One day, you will not have anywhere else to move. Oh, I guess outer SPACE.

But on a more serious note: will the aliens accept you?

I’ll leave you guys to yourself.

By Amy

November 16, 2005 01:48 PM | Link to this

Sorry, I guess it’s not f and u. I just a ssumed that further was the word mechelle was using. Any guess on what word it was that got astericked out?

By Laura

November 16, 2005 02:09 PM | Link to this

Texas is a majority minority state, too. We also have this law called the Top 10% law and if you rank in the Top 10 of your class you get automatic acceptance to the state university of your choice. It’s about the only way to get in to The University of Texas at Austin. Consequently, whites are going back into the urban high schools so they can be ranked in Top 10%. In the all white high schools the top quarter have averages over 100. It’s quite competitive.

Also, college admissions officers are starting to be more interested in kids from urban schools, rather than the garden variety white kid from a nice suburbs. They’re boring.

Here’s a link to that story: http://www.dallasobserver.com/issues/2004-06-17/news/feature.html

By Kelly

November 16, 2005 02:09 PM | Link to this

Folks, while I do not disagree at all with the people’s decisions to move into to the best public school areas where they can afford housing (I went to K-12 and graduated from Brookwood High School in Gwinnett and went on to graduate, with highest honors, from GW Law School in DC), I challenge some of the characteristics of other states’ public schools that you make on this blog. I lived for 6 years in Arlington, Virginia and worked in Fairfax, County. If you go to the Washington Post’s web site and review Jay Matthews’ top 500 high schools in the nation, you will find a huge number of Northern Virginia (e.g., Arlington County, Fairfax County, Alexandria, Loudoun County, Prince William County, etc.) schools on the list. More importantly, if you have ever ventured into or lived in those counties, they are highly diverse, have a wide-spread socioeconomic barrier, yet also have extremely wealthy families too. Most importantly, a majority of students go to public schools. Just some food for thought.

By EW

November 16, 2005 02:17 PM | Link to this

Parent, So you are telling me that it is the black & brown student’s fault that the white students are not receiving a 3 on their exams? Ever heard of self responsibility and accountability? I teach in Rockdale and last year in my school all the major infractions, i.e., drugs, and weapons were committed from white students. Please, please dear white people stop blaming everyone else and if you want to move then move! We have a responsibility to educate all students and that means gifted as well as special needs. I usually read the posts and hardly contribute, however I feel that this particular subject today is an embarrassment, and only used to ignite hatred and ignorance. Way to go Patti, I expected better!

By SET

November 16, 2005 02:25 PM | Link to this

Independent Woman: You amuse me! You know nothing about my neighborhood. I once moved to avoid poor white neighbors. Once. My current neighborhood I haven’t described. You don’t even know my race… Keep guessing. I’m in California. I’ve lived here 50 years so I have seen first hand what can happen to a neighborhood. And who moves and who stays put.

Nobody with an ounce of self preservation either physical or financial is going to hang around bad neighborhoods or bad people.

If you think there is a “White Flight” going on I’m suggesting that Smart People aka Smart Money are voting with their feet. Good for them.

Every week the local newspaper prints the names of all the buyers and sellers of real estate sorted by price paid. It’s NOT a White Flight Anymore. Everybody is running from the Ghetto.

And there is nothing wrong with it.

One day the government supports that keep ghetto behavior going will all be taken away. Then we won’t need (In California) to keep moving into gated communities with ruthless homeowner’s a s s o c i a t i o n s and rules to keep the dregs of society out.

And I’m not white.

By Angry White Boy

November 16, 2005 02:31 PM | Link to this

ad - Sorry you left but as an individual with a 145 IQ let me explain ignorance to you. Ignorance is assuming I’m stupid and/or ignorant because I choose to blog as AWB, demonstrating biased and prejudicial thinking on your part. Ignorance is lacking knowledge, not knowing the facts, and then stating an ignorant opinion based on your PC biased perception of how you think the world should be, rather than what the factual evidence best supports. Ignorance is referring to the west as predominantly white (by which I think she meant whiter than Georgia since all states except California are predominantly non-Hipanic white), perhaps Cassandra has never been there, or defines Kansas as west. To paraphrase that noted scholar eminem, ‘oop there’s goes reality, oops there goes reality’. I deal in facts and reality and I’m angry because the schools are determined to push political correctness and enhanced self-esteem over reality and the search for truth. Facts are items like study after study showing black IQ is one standard deviation below white IQ. That GA student SAT scores aren’t the lowest but are middle of the road on a white-to-white and black-to-black basis, but the overall average is pulled down because 28% of our students taking the SAT are black compared to a national average of around 13%. Those would be facts. Ignorance would be ignoring the facts, or putting the PC spin on them by quoting the law of generational poverty. Do they score lower on tests because they are poor or because they are stupid? Would a rich stupid kid score better than a poor smart one?

By SET

November 16, 2005 02:38 PM | Link to this

Another thing, Amazing & Co.

Profiling works. It’s called experience.

Sometime’s it’s called “Credit Scores”

It used to be called “Character” (as in “content of”.

Don’t blame me for the bad news. But modern statistics and the falling prices of computerization have now combined to make it easier and cheaper to “score” people on various indexes to predict future behavior. Interviews of the subjects are not required given enough records.

Scoring systems are used to set insurance rates (or to decline applications) for life, health and liability policies and for rentals and school applications. Scoring systems in California decide who gets released from jail on O.R. One day they will be used to control who is allowed into a shopping mall.

Previously you have to go through interviews and backgrounding to buy into a New York Co-op. Statistical scoring does the same thing faster and cheaper.

Is this racist also? Guess which group (not individuals, which GROUP) is at the bottom of the heap? And Why? Maybe the GROUP had better change to survive.

Brave new world we live in. Change is coming fast. It doesn’t matter what I think or you think. It’s happening and you can’t stop it in a free market.

Consider this when you talk about “Flight” issues.

By Angry White Boy

November 16, 2005 02:41 PM | Link to this

Laura - I knew Texas was close, didn’t know they were majority minority. What a great law, it’s better to be in the top 10% in a worse school, than get the best education available. At least it’s consistent with NCLB, puch for mediocrity.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

November 16, 2005 02:45 PM | Link to this

SET:

I never said anything about your color, it doesn’t matter. Your statements about crack, lying, single mothers, violence, etc… was just plain stupid.

From a single mom, who lives in a gated swim/tennis community - I bought it because I like the house. By the way, my high income neighbor was busted for doing drugs and another likes to beat on his wife. So much for the neighborhood. I wish I could send those guys to the other side of town. That is my point.

By SET

November 16, 2005 02:58 PM | Link to this

Amazed:

You are right that the white and wealthy can be a real social problem. We see it on these new TV shows. And the Poor whites are terrible to have to deal with and that’s in CA.

But.

There are not as many of them here in CA clogging up our prisons and otherwise creating big problems in our schools and streets. Maybe it’s different in TX or somewhere.

Our problem in CA is that Mexico is occupying CA and colonizing it. Some of them openly boast of an inevitable physical takeover. And in the 50 years I’ve been here we have gone from a few prisons to 50 plus LA County Jail which is a huge prison all it’s own. And the Rodney King Riots among other things taught us that anybody living within striking distance of the ghetto needs to arm themselves. The Koreans in LA learned that the hard way.

Yes, single mothers are a mortal problem for our society. They don’t domesticate their children well. You may be terrific. I’m talking about groups not individuals.

Have a good day!

By NotMyProblem

November 16, 2005 03:00 PM | Link to this

Actually, it will never BE my problem. If I see the same kind of tendencies in our East Cobb neighborhood as I did in our ITP neighborhood (black thugs walking around all times of day and night up to no good, sirens wailing constantly, unkept yards and houses, massive amounts of apartment complexes and low-income housing), I’ll take my spouse and my child and move again to a place where those things aren’t an issue. I don’t see that happening in East Cobb for a long time, simply by virtue of the fact that MARTA will never be allowed to go there and the only rental properties you’ll find are homes, where the owners are very particular about whom they rent to. By doing something as simple as eliminating access via public transportation to these areas, we have been able to maintain a high standard of living and quality neighborhoods. If you can’t afford to buy a house there, you can’t live there. It’s that simple. No FUBU clothes, no crappy $500 cars with loud sterios, very few single parent families, and those who are single are that way because of divorce or widowed, not because at the age of 15 they have kid after kid by man after man, knowing that “the man” will pay for it. There’s nothing you can do to stop those of us who have the means to move when necessary. If you want to see how well multiculturism works, just look at the riots in France. No thanks. I’m white, make a good living, and FORCED diversity isn’t something that I feel has to be a part of my or my child’s life. I like the blacks in our neighborhood. They have beautiful lawns and care very much about their home value and their childrens’ behavior. They saved and made whatever sacrifices were necessary to get there, and that’s why they live out where we do. That’s the kind of diversity that I welcome with open arms. I have no use for diversity that involves those who live their lives with the entitlement attitude, or who don’t bother to parent all the illigitimate children they bear. If they want to continue the destruction of any family values or human values within their race, it’s NOT MY PROBLEM.

By scruggs

November 16, 2005 03:36 PM | Link to this

Not to sound corny, but I’m glad Jesus didn’t have the “Not My Problem” mentality. He went straight for those most messed up. If he popped in today, would he be hanging out at at the East Cobb Talbots or with these “black thugs?” What about the old anecdote about the Holocaust: They came for the jews, but I did not speak up because I wasn’t a jew….by the time they came for me, there was no one left to speak up. A perfect example of how “Not my problem” can come back to haunt you. Don’t say this situation is different because of how these folks you describe choose to act. Let’s see you born to some thug associatin’, affordable housing livin’, crappy car drivin’, FUBU wearin’, stereo blarin’ unwed mother and see what uphill battles you have to face and how this cycle keeps going. Thank God there are those who are working to help improve the situation of those around them instead of setting up a cocoon. Nice Job.

By CCR

November 16, 2005 03:45 PM | Link to this

$12,000 is annually spent per student in the Atlanta City schools, arguably the worst public school system this side of New Orleans. Each of those impressionable young minds, mostly poor and black, could be sent to private schools for that kind of money. This is liberalism at work, creating one generation after another of government dependents likely to vote for the Democratic Party, and looking for another handout.

By VERITAS

November 16, 2005 04:00 PM | Link to this

You are a single mother, poorly educated and unable to keep a steady job, with men in and out of your life and bedroom. You name your offspring Mombasa, Qwantavian, and Shaquilla because you think you are doing them a favor, promoting some sort of imaginary African culture in a land overwhelmingly western. Automatically these kids have been penalized. Who the hell would hire anyone with such names, let alone try to spell ?

By jennifer

November 16, 2005 04:03 PM | Link to this

I moved to DeKalb County (directly off of Scott Blvd.) between Midtown and Decatur and I found it to be one of the stuffiest neighborhoods I’ve lived in and the schools were less than adequate.

Before we moved I tried to do as much research as I could on Fernbank Elementary and Shamrock Middle but the truth is: Both schools suck. They have little funding, they’re full of incredibly disrespectful children, and the teacher to student ratio was appauling. I think Fernbank was probably a good school once but with their funding being cut more and more they just aren’t what they used to be. So, we moved back to Midtown where our neighbors have good values and aren’t worried about poking their noses into anyone’s business.

There is an old saying: It takes a village to raise a child. Well, in the words of Bill Mahr, “This villager is busy.” I have three children of my own and I do not wish to raise anyone else’s.

Although our neighborhood in Decatur was very nice and I absolutely loved the home we were in, it wasn’t worth staying there when we had to deal with the self-righteous at-home moms every day. The very first day my daughter started Fernbank there was a very loud argument between the crossing guard and a parent. It was completely ridiculous. The crossing guard was angry that a mother was not crossing at her crosswalk but instead chose to use another one. The crossing guard came bolting at her screaming and waving her stop sign in her face yelling at her about how if she chooses to use that crosswalk then she (the mom) will be responsible for her daughter. Duh! The mom told her that was fine and continued on to her car. How childish is that? I’m still glad I moved from there. I just wish I could have brought my house with me.

I have no problem living around minorities but I do have a problem with driving out in the burbs and seeing signs that are not written in English. What country do I live in again? Isn’t it Georgia law that signs must all be in English and other languages must be listed in smaller lettering? Maybe that’s just something I heard, but if anyone knows please let me know as well.

I live around blacks, gays, hispanics, and just about all types of people and I’m glad about that.

I don’t want to live near homes where 10 people live because the rent is $1,000 and no one seems to be doing anything about it.

As the contractors move further out of the city so it seems the illegals are moving with them because that’s where the jobs are.

Btw, Y.T. There is a lot more wrong with this country than those “broodmares” you complain about. They certainly aren’t the sole force bringing the country down as you perceive. Not to mention they are a very small populous in comparison to all of us who live here.

By jennifer

November 16, 2005 04:07 PM | Link to this

Oh my god some of you people are blatantly racist in your comments.

On another subject, don’t you think if those poor folks could afford to send their children to private schools they would?

Liberalism at work. You crack me up. Always blaming the liberal media that’s telling you the truth, always blaming activist judges for enforcing the laws, and now the country is going to pot because of the liberals. Who’s in charge? Your man, Bush, who isn’t a Liberal.

By jennifer

November 16, 2005 04:09 PM | Link to this

So, does any word beginning with the letter F automatically become **? That’s crazy that I can’t even type the word ‘find’.

By Angry White Boy

November 16, 2005 04:11 PM | Link to this

scruggs - Are you suggesting life is some sort of social services Christian ministry where we all have a responsiblity to try and help the less fortunate? Staying put and preventing the hood from deteriorating any further is our civic duty? White people that won’t stand their ground and diversify with the ever increasing minorities are the problem? You are correct that it is not the children’s fault. As YT pointed out, the fault lies with the parents reproducing without responsiblity. How/why am I responsible for the result?

By jennifer

November 16, 2005 04:16 PM | Link to this

Georgia has the fastest growing single-mother population. What does that tell you? Better sex education is needed.

Chances are we’ve all had unprotected sex at some point in our lives. The difference is some people get caught and others don’t. While some of the single mothers may be on welfare a good portion of them work, too, they just can’t support themselves on minimum wage jobs. Who can? There are a lot of single moms out there who are trying to make ends meet by working and by going back to school to further their education. Not every single mother is a loser on welfare.

If you’re worried about welfare why don’t you worry more about the corporate welfare that’s killing us?

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

November 16, 2005 04:21 PM | Link to this

Y.T. & VERITAS - Get a life.

There are just as many married couples and home school/private school kids destroying this country.

I’m sure the two of you are contributing to the cause as well.

VERITAS - Jesus was not a common name. Not only that, but many of the names in the bible would be considered unusual by your standards. Think about it.

I have a very common name, but if you chose not to hire me because of my name; I would gladly stay unemployed. I wouldn’t hire you to work on my team, because you’re too worried about the wrong thing. Attitudes plays a big part, when I’m interviewing new team members.

By Mad As Zell

November 16, 2005 04:22 PM | Link to this

Let me break it down for you Atlanta in numbers. In 1990 the population of the metro area was 2.9 million, by 2000 the population of the metro area was 4.1 million meaning the metro area grew by 1.2 million people in 10 years. In 2005 the population of the metro area is unofficially estimated to be at just over five-million, meaning that the population of the metro area grew by just over 900,000 in just five years from 2000-2005.

Those newcomers were of all races and ethnicities: black, white, south asian, east asian and (especially) hispanic. Officially there are estimated to be 10 million “undocumented” hispanic immigrants in the U.S., but the real number of “undocumented” hispanics is thought to be well above 20 million, no one really knows the real number (if you’re “undocumented”, filling out census forms probably isn’t going to be your number one priority).

My advice, for those of you that have previously moved away from the city for better schools, less crime, greater property values, etc, IS TO FIND A GOOD MOVING COMPANY AND GET A GOOD PAIR OF RUNNING SHOES because you’re probably going to be running from the “urbanization” of suburbs for a long time to come. If you are taking comfort in the fact that MARTA doesn’t come out to your area, then think again. Because marta has been so horribly mismanaged and neglected by all levels of government, most poor people own automobiles and can easily move around the metro area at will, besides take it from me, those luxurious suburban apartments nearby to your single-family home don’t stay all that suburban or luxurious forever meaning they eventually change hands into an owner who doesn’t care who they rent to as long as they have a few-months cash deposit.

That means you’re always only one SECTION 8 rental from falling property values. YOU CAN RUN BUT YOU CAN’T HIDE, Suburban Atlanta. THE SECTION 8 and ENGLISH AS A SECOND LANGUAGE CLASSES BOOGEYMAN IS GOING TO GET YOU.

One, two, SECTION EIGHT is coming for you…

Three, four, better lock your door….

Five, six get your crusafix….

Seven, eight don’t stay out late….

HA, HA, HA, HA, (loud, hysterical, sinister laughter)

By Dan

November 16, 2005 04:22 PM | Link to this

Funny how people justify their ideas, I am not against sex ed at some level, but the facts are overwhelming that since the advent of a more explicit sex ed in the late 60’s early 70’s single mother population has grown. So your logic well isn’t logical. Secondly while you are correct not every single mom is a loser on welfare those that are on welfare (or in a minimum wage job) for any length of time are losers. Lastly the fact that you mention corporate welfare shows an ignorance of basic economics (kind of similar to your social facts) Every dollar a business is taxed is passed along to the consumer, this “corporate welfare” nonsense is a song and dance to get the uneducated riled up.

By Y.T.

November 16, 2005 04:22 PM | Link to this

Jennifer,

What planet are you from? Why should society have to pay for those who make poor decisions? They are making minimum wage because they are either starting out in life, or they made poor decisions with their education. Give me a break! Minimum wage IS NOT meant to be lived on. Instead of stealing tax dollars (from those who make enough to pay taxes), I’d rather see that $12,000 allocation be spent on those poor kids in the Atlanta City schools by freeing them and sending them to private schools. Free them from a world of poverty and big government!

By jennifer

November 16, 2005 04:31 PM | Link to this

Where is this explicit sex ed you speak of? Certainly not in the schools.

Jobs aren’t so plentiful in this country that everyone can have a great paying non-minimum wage job. If that were true there wouldn’t be a lot of the issues we have.

LOL at the corporate welfare comment. Thanks for the giggle.

On another note, if there are as many as 20 million undocumented people living here then that’s obviously a problem that affects everyone. They do not pay taxes but our tax dollars go to support them and their families while their children receive a free education and free healthcare. Granted, I do not think the children should be punished for their parent’s actions but what can you do? Contractors keep hiring the illegals because they’re cheap labor. I mentioned in another blog on here about posting the names of companies and contractors who have been caught hiring illegals. Then, we as consumers could choose whether to spend our money with them or not.

By jennifer

November 16, 2005 04:34 PM | Link to this

Well, if you are going to bash people for being on welfare then you should probably include those who are in the military since they have growing numbers who cannot afford to live anymore and have had to turn to welfare of some sort because the president keeps cutting their pay and their benefits.

Minimum wage needs to go up. Period. There are not enough high-paying jobs out there for everyone to have one. The country is not set up that way. The working poor are a great population in this country and they are just trying to get by like everyone else.

By CCR

November 16, 2005 04:34 PM | Link to this

Amazed,

Jesus was not HIS real name. It was anglicized for Yeshua, which was common.

How many Jews do you know named Matthew, Mark, Luke or John?

If you want a made-up African-sounding name, move to Africa.

By jennifer

November 16, 2005 04:35 PM | Link to this

Ok, good folks. It’s nearly quitting time. Have a good one.

By Meg

November 16, 2005 04:41 PM | Link to this

It isn’t white flight. It’s black and white flight. It’s English language speaker flight. There are at least a dozen houses for sale in a one mile radius of our house, and they belong to the last remaining whites and blacks. The neighborhood is now almost entirely spanish speaking. There are three or four families each in most of the houses on our street. I joke to my husband that we can always sell our house to ten or twelve nice Mexican families if we decide to move. (We have a basement and an upstairs) There are goats, roosters, clunker cars with no tags, and gang graffiti, not to mention the woman that walks around selling cheese out of a tub on her head. This used to be a nice neighborhood. People knock on my door to sell things and they don’t even speak English. We love our house, I just wish we could pick it up and move it away from here. Are they really living better here? They are overcrowded, they live with livestock, they make substandard wages, they’re just bringing their conditions here, instead of us improving their lives. And they depend on their children to translate for them, which means their kids run their households bt deciding how much to tell them etc. That’s not healthy. How can you be a good parent if you have to take your child’s word for absolutely everything?

By scruggs

November 16, 2005 04:43 PM | Link to this

Angry White Boy: All good questions. “Are you suggesting life is some sort of social services Christian ministry where we all have a responsiblity to try and help the less fortunate?” Depends. Speaking specifically from the Christian perspective, well then, YEP, that’s exactly what I’m saying. I think its pretty clear.

“Staying put and preventing the hood from deteriorating any further is our civic duty? White people that won’t stand their ground and diversify with the ever increasing minorities are the problem? ” Now, I didn’t say that. I’m not begruding those who wish to move to ensure their children are in a more positive learning environment. Not at all. I was just commenting on the poor attitude, “To heck with everyone else as long as I’m good.” Cutting yourself off from the problem only postpones having to deal with it. That it will come to a head in society is inevitable.

“How/why am I responsible for the result?” For the most part, the parents bringing kids into these poor situations can’t/won’t do anything for these children. So if not them, and not us, how do we ever solve the problem? We are responsible as a community. This doesn’t mean we all have to take shifts reading at an inner-city school, but how this problem is growing will directly impact us all in the future. We need to press for solutions rather than just turn our head and tilt up our nose.

By CCR

November 16, 2005 04:45 PM | Link to this

Raise the minimum wage? Why reward poor decision making? This country gives you tools (many are free, including the public school system). Many skills can be learned through government sponsored training programs. If you want to make more than minimum wage, learn some skills. Get a second job. Stop leeching off of taxpayers!

By parent

November 16, 2005 04:52 PM | Link to this

EW

I am pointing out the facts. There is a positive correlation between the lower scores and the higher minority rates. Look at Flat Shoals for an example of a once very good school becoming a joke.

The Magnet School is a good example of what happens when everyone in the class is a top student. There are no underperformers to slow the rest of the class down.

By Angry White Boy

November 16, 2005 05:19 PM | Link to this

scruggs - Thanks for the clarifications. My ethics don’t come from 1900 year old interpretations of the life and words of Jesus, which is one reason I would like to see the schools emphasizing personal responsibility instead of entitlement. I am not nor do I want to be my brother’s keeper, he should keep himself! As Meg points out for the area we are talking about the solution is enforce the immigration laws. Since there appears to be a general reluctance to do that, starting with President Bush, there won’t be any solutions. The demographics of more school-age children with additional needs (English) combined with a shrinking tax base doesn’t bode well for test scores in the area as parent points out. The more affluent will all leave and what is left will look a lot like Mexico City North.

By Michael Norton

November 17, 2005 07:41 AM | Link to this

Our neighborhood near Jimmy Carter underwent a dramatic change as the older whites who built houses there in the 60’s moved and died off. The problem was not the other races and cultures that moved in, but rather the affect the changing demographics had on the school system. Scores plummeted and gang activity skyrocketed.

My neighbor had to repaint his fence three times to remove gang grafitti and I found myself sitting in a PTA meeting where they are bragging about (in English) having tonight’s program translated into 19 languages. I guess the school administrators had rather talk about that than the dismal test scores.

Louise Radloff calls it a perception problem. Ms. Radloff needs to compare the scores of Meadowcreek High school with those of Parkview High School — schools about seven miles apart — and explain how perceptions get one school ranked in the 200s and another in the top 10. She needs to walk the halls or even hang out at a football game and listen in on student conversations. One group will be asking when you dropped out, the other which colleges have you applied to. It may be a perception problem to school system administrators at a loss at how to solve it, but to parents with kids in these schools it is all to real and it has life-long consequences.

We didn’t want to move. We tried to transfer to another country school, but the school system made that all but impossible. Now, with No Child Left Behind, parents at least have some way to move their kids from a failing school and place them in a better one. Too bad the vouchers got stripped out. We ended up moving to another school district. I’m just sorry we wasted as much time as we did hoping for a governmental solution.

We’ll move again too and possibly out of Gwinnett. Once schools are no longer a prime consideration, space will become one. It would be nice to simply see trees outside my windows instead of houses.

By RF

November 17, 2005 09:47 AM | Link to this

I wish the term ‘white flight’ could be corrected for today’s shifting. It’s about money and class perception nowadays. I see all races moving out of areas for several reasons. The influx of people using gov’t buying programs, the aging and lack of care in neighborhoods, and violence that seems to follow those trying to leave poorer areas all work together to create a downfall in once nice areas. I grew up in East Point/College Park area. Areas there are beginning to finally renovate after a twenty year decline where businesses left along with the money. I don’t think it’s about traditional white flight as much as it is about people in general wanting to be in a decent school district where housing values will likely go up instead of down. Just makes good economic sense to me.

By SET

November 17, 2005 09:53 AM | Link to this

One of Jennifer’s fundamental misunderstandings - and there were more than one - is that sex education controls production of bastard children.

The single mothers in CA who produce the criminals did not accidently have those children. They wanted to be unwed mothers. The state paid them to do it and gave the free labor and delivery at the county hospital to do it. If the bastard child was a drug baby they ran up an unlimited tab using expensive incubators and neonatal support.

It’s wrong to produce a cadre of bastards who are highly likely to be unable to fit into civilized society. It’s wrong to pay for this with taxpayers money. The role of the sex education was to ensure they knew what they were doing when the deliberately created these children.

I have no problem with sex ed. I do believe no one should be allowed to have a diploma without knowing the basics of reproduction and venereal disease, etc. I really have a problem with anybody promoting the concept that education means stupid people will no longer be stupid. Stupid people can be trained but educating them, especially in certain ways, only makes them more dangerous to themselves and others.

Thus we don’t need to teach everybody about poisons, weapons and explosives either. We screen candidates for Jr College Police Academy and that keeps a disproportionate number of blacks out at the present time. You can’t touch a gun if you have any felony or a domestic violence conviction. Guess which group around here has the least of these? Whites and Asians. There are nearly no blacks in the local public school Police Academy.

The Jr. College nursing school has similar issues. They want to increase representation but you normally can’t work as a student nurse with a drug history. Guess who has the biggest likelyhood of having a drug history? Liquesha.

And these jobs BOTH start with overtime at 65K a yr in CA and are unionized.

I hate what is happening but I see this constantly in CA and the trends are getting worse. Unless the government quickly has an Un-Civil rights movement quick and forces change among the underclass no amount of money or “education” will save certain people.

The other writer was correct. It’s no longer a White Flight. The middle class is shrinking due to government policies and USA is turning into a Upper and Lower class society just like Mexico with a small Middle.

If you live within striking distance of the lower class your children will become them and along the way your standards of living will decline to 3rd World levels. So professional people here generally plan to retire outside of CA to a “safe(r)” retreat. Later generations will have to make their own plans of where to go.

I will vote to try to stop this deterioration but there is no difference between the democrats and the republicians. They have both trashed the constitution by destroying state’s rights, promoting all-powerful central government, and open borders so they can replace the US citizens with 3rd worlders who will be easier to control and have no concept of US History or why things were supposed to be different.

By Vanessa

November 17, 2005 10:05 AM | Link to this

You know this race always comes up, and its sad very sad that racism always have to come into things. I think most of this lies with CLASS and not RACE. I’m a black women and there is no way I would want my kids to go to lower income school, or for that case for me to live in lower income neigborhoods. I’m not saying that I’m better but on the contray that’s what I prefer, that is the way of life that I want for myself and for my kids. I grew up military so needless to say I’ve alway been around diverse neighborhoods, but in those neighborhoods parents taught values, morals, respect for someone else and their property. As far as school is concerned I believe its the parents responsibility to help the kids along, too many people think it should rely soley on the teachers, I mean come on. As it was mentioned before if someone wants to move let them, I myself would move if I saw my neighborhood on the decline. It all comes down to how you want to live your life.

By scott

November 17, 2005 10:08 AM | Link to this

To read these posts I believe that many of you do not realize or know that white americans make up the largest populations when it comes to poverty, prisons, and welfare recepients. Yes, white americans commit crimes too, i.e. Enron, Meth Labs, Identity Theft, should I go on. PS. Rural(white flight) GA has to share much of the blame for the low achievement scores for the state. What are we ever going to do with all of these Edwards and Katelyns running wild.

By Groovy Guy

November 17, 2005 10:40 AM | Link to this

People with money don’t wait around for the neighborhood to change to move.

By MusingLee

November 17, 2005 10:48 AM | Link to this

The United States is host home to many different people. At some point in our lives we will come into contact with people we either don’t get along or identify with. As adults we should be mature about our actions as our children emulate the character and attitudes we display. Deciding to leave an area because a different ethic group moves next door is not enough to justify it. Children do notice these things, and when you make decisions based off stereotypes of a group of people, that is being prejudice. If anyone decides to leave a neighborhood that is their decision to make. No one should be in a place that makes them uncomfortable. When you cite declining schools or environmental conditions, those things are different. These things don’t fail all at once but this takes time. Chances are if the school is terrible this year, it was terrible last year and the year before. When your car blows a tire, you repair it. You don’t leave it and find a new car. When services that our tax dollars pay for decline, then you change leadership over to someone that will provide us with the services we want. When the school system goes bad in your area put some heat on the system administrators. Neighborhoods that don’t speak up about their schools get shafted. There is only enough money to go around and if you don’t say something the officials will give most of it to the schools their kids use. As a former teacher in the APS system, I worked in a very poor area of town. Yes, there are plenty of children and parents that don’t value education. But, there are just as many who do. Simply because someone is poor and not fortunate to live in a home larger than yours, does not mean they don’t value the education system or want the things more well off people want. We are all entitled to a great education and adequate living conditions. If we don’t make our feelings known and our voices heard, our elected officials will think they are getting over on us. Just getting up and leaving is not enough, that’s being passive. Our Georgia community has to demand better conditions for everyone, and if we aren’t getting it from the people in office lets get those officials out and new people in office. After all, there are only so many areas to move to eventually you will be forced to face your own prejudice or elected officials and administrators.

For the record, if you want an example of “white flight,� check out rush our on 85N, 75N and Ga400. I can guarantee 3 out of 4 cars surrounding you on the highway are occupied by people of the Caucasian ethnic group.

By Karen Armsby

November 17, 2005 10:57 AM | Link to this

OK, I am going to play devil’s advocate. I don’t think that the concept of ‘white flight’ controls most of the moves. In fact, inside the perimeter, gentrification of older Atlanta neighborhoods is on the rise, and prosperous and smart white and black and asian families are moving in.

‘Metro Atlanta’ and the counties included has grown over the last forty years from meaning just Fulton and Dekalb Counties to including Cobb, Cherokee, Gwinnett, Forsyth, Clayton, Douglas, and very soon will include Hall, Barrow and Walton. Given the booming growth in the last ten years alone, and more new neighborhoods in our greater metro area, certainly we cannot expect any long term status quo in neighborhood makeup.

Millions of people have moved here and moved away, and neighborhood demographics have changed as people aged, as they moved into bigger homes, as jobs changed or transferred them, as they upsized because of a growing family, downsized to condos or apartments as empty nesters or retirees, or sold their highly valued property inside the perimeter and moved into twice the house outside the perimeter in a lower taxed area.

IMHO, I don’t think ‘white flight’ (with its racist implications) is the primary reason (as suggested here) why people move. It may be the reason for some people, but realistically it is economics that allows people to move into a neighborhood and others to move on to another. Remember the TV show “The Jeffersons”? From a website about the show: “The Jeffersons” was perhaps the most-successful spinoff series to “All in the Family.” George Jefferson was the black version of Archie Bunker in many respects, both were loud-mouthed, opinionated and set in their bigoted ways. By 1975, Jefferson’s fledging dry-cleaning business, Jefferson Cleaners, had successfully grown into a small chain; his newfound wealth led to moving his family to a “deluxe apartment in the sky” in Manhattan.

It’s just human nature, to want more, and to want better conditions for your family, and to move when you can afford it. And bigots come in all colors, not just white.

By Gina

November 17, 2005 10:58 AM | Link to this

At one time in this country, even if a person didn’t have a lot of money, they cared for the things they owned and cared about manners, character, and their good name. However, things have changed.

I am a Black woman and I am appalled at some of the changes that occur when immigrants from other countries move into neighborhoods and those who are born in this country but have a “give me” attitude. They don’t respect neighborhood covenants nor their neighbors property. For many immigrants, they lived in poverty but can acquire homes because they have many people in the household contributing to the mortgage.

In my neighborhood, a Mexican family moved in and there are about 15 people in the house. However, according to Cobb County Code, up to six unrelated people can live in a house. The people in the house all claim to be family.

Middle class Blacks are fleeing so I guess we need to address “Black flight” also. Personally, I call it “Middle and upper middle class flight”. I agree with some of the other postings. It has to do with class and one’s value system.

Personally, I am tired of illegal immigrants coming to this country and trying to change the rules to suit them. I don’t object to someone wanting to improve their life or to work, but there are rules.

By notso

November 17, 2005 11:04 AM | Link to this

“example of “white flight,â€? check out rush our on 85N,”

Hosefeathers. I’m not familar with 75 or 400, but 85N leads right into Gwinnett County with its Great majority/minority school system.

By Karen Armsby

November 17, 2005 11:05 AM | Link to this

MusingLee, The ‘whites’ you see on I-85 are mostly going home to Gwinnett County where the ‘whites’ are no longer in the majority. We have Hispanics, Asians, Indians, Middle Europeans, Russians, Middle Easterners, etc who are part of our cities, neighborhoods and schools.

By EC

November 17, 2005 11:09 AM | Link to this

“You People” crack me up sometimes, Im reding all of your comments about you comlaining about your lily white areas of North Fulton, East Cobb, and Gwinnett. You all whine and complain that your children have to go to school with “gang members” and that ESOL programs have taken a higher priority than your childs education. Please wake up and release yourselves of the bubble that you have chosen to live in. I myself am a black male who grew up in the not so safe area of Northwest Atlanta that so many call Bankhead. I also am a college graduate who is currently pursuing my masters and is also gainfully employed. I currently rent a loft downtown, but I plan to purchase a home in the Cascade area of (ohh no) Southwest Atlanta of all places. As of yet I do not have any children, but when I do decide to start a family my kids will be enrolled in Atlanta Public Schools. Yes I know the problems of inner city schools, Im a product of Douglass High School myself (class of ‘96, go Astros)but I also know that you can get ahead in life despite your surrondings. There are plenty of people that I went to school with that are either dead, in jail, or strung out on dope, but its also alot like myself that are pursuing the same goals and dreams that I’m currently trying to attain. “You people” are complaining about stuff that would have been an afterthought to me growing up. You worry about your kids going to school with Mexicans and other ethnic groups, when I was in school I was worried about walking thru the open air drug market that was my street to get to the school bus. “You people” know nothing of adversity, you know nothing about studying for a final exam in the midst of a shootout right ouside your window. You talk down on the drug problems in the inner city when the people buying the drugs in my neighborhood growing up were local residents from that area but also white kids in Hondas with Cobb and Gwinnett plates. You complain about gang members in your area, when in fact all they are harmless “wannabe thugs” who watch too many music videos. You think your area is getting bad? The area I grew up has been alot worse than bad, for a long time, since before the crack epidemic of the late 80’s. Before “you people” even thought about packing up all your stuff and moving out to the far reaches of the metro, to get away from the people whom you deemed unfit to live around you. Well I’m one of those people, I was just taught how to play the game from both sides. So the next time you and your loved ones are sitting down to a nice dinner at Blue Point or Chops, I could be sitting right next to you. One more thing to the lady who made the comment about ESOL programs taking precedence over her childs education in Gwinnett, was English the official language when “you people” came over from Europe 400 years ago and exterminated to real Americans?

By MusingLee

November 17, 2005 11:09 AM | Link to this

“white flight” was once a term used to describe the white population leaving the Atlanta city limits once the days work was done intown. I think what happens at 5:00pm during the week is a great example of this term. I do think the reasons for the term have changed as said earilier, but it does make for good discussion.

By Angry White Boy

November 17, 2005 11:10 AM | Link to this

Hey Scott that is at least true for prison but you are a moron if that is the extent of your grasp of statistics. 1 in 3 black males will spend some time in jail compared to 1 in 6 Hispanics and 1 in 17 non-Hispanic whites. Blacks at about 14% of the total population make up about 31% of the prison population, but its not because they’re black, or have low regard for the law, or are stupid. They are just victims of their slavery heritage and generational poverty.

By MusingLee

November 17, 2005 11:15 AM | Link to this

@ EC Class of 96’ Mays High, I’m there with you.

By EC

November 17, 2005 11:16 AM | Link to this

Please excuse my errors in my previous comment, I was typing in a bit of a haste.

By me

November 17, 2005 11:18 AM | Link to this

I am so sick of certain posters—you know who you are—always disparaging minority races and blaming them for the ills of the society when there are dumb people in ALL races. Just like there are blacks and other minorities who commit crimes and do not take education seriously, there are also whites who do the same things. As for the so-called “White flight”, well, it’s amazing that so many (not all) whites want to move away to their little exclusive neighborhood, but they make their money off the backs of so many ignorant minorities whose money enables them to “flee”. Those of you who do “flee”, tell your daughters to stop fooling around with minority boys. You know what I mean. Tell your children to stop buying and listening to hip-hop, R&B, and other minority-influenced music.
Stop calling DFACS (claiming “psychological abuse)on those parents who discipline (NOT abuse)their children by using “the rod of correction”, but want to throw them in jail later for stealing your precious valuables because they weren’t disciplined earlier in life.

As for the “Liquesha” comment, SET, you don’t see too many “Liqueshas” and their parents on TV shows like “The Nanny” and “Wife Swap”. Guess who is? Also, it’s not the “Liqueshas” who are killing their parents over “love” and cursing their parents out in grocery stores. Hmmm.
Unfortunately, there are too many “Liquesha’s” parents who have bought into the theory that old-school discipline is obsolete, and their children are disrespectful brats who devalue education. However, I don’t blame other races for this. Get over yourselves, people.

By RF

November 17, 2005 11:20 AM | Link to this

It really isn’t racial as much as it’s economic. Gwinnett is diverse and many neighborhoods reflect this. It’s not a problem until the neighbors ignore covenants and the houses start falling apart. My parents have lived for decades in south Fulton. The population shifted twenty years ago. Now it’s Section 8 renters they’re dealing with who have trashed the houses around them, attracted crime, and forced my parents to sell their HOME before it’s broken into for the tenth time. You can take the poor (of all races) and move them out of the poor areas, but you can’t change the mentality that comes with poverty. They move up and don’t appreciate what’s GIVEN to them that my parents slaved to pay for years ago. My mother sleeps with her pistol loaded because they’ve been robbed so many times. None of this happened until the neighborhood was slowly bought up by “slum-lords” who saw an easy rental market by going to Section 8 rentals. The government pays the rent and pays any repair bills after the renters leave.

By J.T.

November 17, 2005 11:23 AM | Link to this

Let’s assume for a moment that all the people involved in this discussion are of the exact same race. It’s a race that is neither black nor white nor brown. It’s just a “widget” race.

All the children of this “widget” race attend the same schools. Now some of the students (all “widget” race remember…) do not speak or read the same language predominantly spoken by the rest of the “widget” race in this country. Some of the students, while they ostensibly speak the same language as the majority of the “widget” race, are unable to compete at the same grade level as other “widget” race children…

Because all these kids are integrated into the same classes, teachers must go at a slower pace in all areas of study so that the students who don’t speak the same language can learn on some level. Also the teachers must go at a slower pace to bring the students who aren’t on the same grade level as the other kids.

Is this right?

Because the majority of the widget race students speak the same language AND are on grade level in their studies, why should they be punished for their achievement?

It is punishment too!

Why should children whose parents who supplement their kid’s education be forced to learn at a “dumbed down” level just because that is what the “integrated” school says is right? Why should we educate to the lowest common denominator?

We are losing the battle in education to the rest of the world, because in this country we don’t want anyone to feel left out, so we have learned to set the bar lower and lower to make those who do not strive as high feel better.

By Karen Armsby

November 17, 2005 11:25 AM | Link to this

EC, Most of us that you are pointing your “you people ” finger at weren’t born in Atlanta, never lived in the City of Atlanta, or even Georgia for that matter until we moved here in the last 10 to 20 years. You are assuming a lot of ill will that just isn’t there.

Good for you that you are living intown and will buy a house that you can afford ITP in a neighborhood that you choose and where you choose to have your children go to school.

God Bless America for your freedom of choice, and for our freedom to choose also. Just don’t point your judging finger at us because we make different choices for our many different reasons. We may not have walked in your shoes, but you didn’t walk in ours, either. We need to respect each others differences and choices.

By RF

November 17, 2005 11:28 AM | Link to this

Why is it always about whites looking down on blacks? EC, my black friends are more class conscious and discriminatory of their own race. I personally take offense at the idea that this is always about race. It’s not, so get over that. I live in a racially mixed neighborhood and we all get along because we have the same quality standards for living. When and if those standards change, I will move. It’s as simple as that. Racial issues continue to surface because of assumptions made by people. I think the point has been clearly made here that it’s about economics, not race.

By me

November 17, 2005 11:37 AM | Link to this

I forgot to add that it must have been the minorities’ fault that the majorities’kid shot and killed people at the school in Tennessee, as well as in Columbine, Paducah, and the other “surburban” areas like Conyers (remember Heritage High, anyone?). It is so interesting to me that certain people can sweep around other’s front doors but can’t sweep around theirs. I am reminded of the saying: He who lives in a glass house should not throw stones.

By the way, EC, you hit the nail dead on the head with your comment about the “real” Americans, their near-extermination, and the English language.

By jim dumond

November 17, 2005 11:41 AM | Link to this

Karen,

You failed to touch on the job market in the outlying counties.

In Gwinnett County alone the schools employ 23,162 employees, and are a magnet for job seekers throughout the state. The school system’s payroll is in excess of $54 million each month. Approximately 1,400 teachers were added to the growing number of employees in 2004.

Somewhere in the neighborhood of 3,500 to 4,000 jobs are created as a result of school construction that goes on each year.

All of this adds to the desirability of living and working in an area that continues to grow and that adds to property values. Many long time residents see this as an opportunity to “cash in� and move out farther. This is not a black white issue but one purely of economics, i.e.: you bought a home for $60,000 that is now worth $200,000+. Do you stay or sell, move farther out and build your dream home?

Since Gwinnett was at one time less populated by minorities it would stand to reason that people leaving would be a higher percentage of whites. But is this “White Flight”? I don’t think so.

By J.T.

November 17, 2005 11:42 AM | Link to this

The most comical aspect of this segregation issue is the fact that integration is forced ONLY in the South. Go to New York City, Boston, Chicago and any number of other northern cities…. it doesn’t exist.

Ever heard of Harlam, Little Italy, Germantown, Chinatown, Koreatown, Southie, the North End? All of these are overtly segregated neighborhoods.

Like likes like.

It makes sense that people of one race/creed gravitate toward others of the same race/creed. Only in the South is that considered to be racist.

The sad part is in the South, black folks often move into predominantly white areas as a way of getting back at white folks for what they perceive as hundreds of years of oppression by people who weren’t even alive at that time and whose families may or may not have even lived in this country at that time.

I was born and bred in Atlanta, but I can honestly say that as soon as I can get out of here - I bees gone!

By EC

November 17, 2005 11:47 AM | Link to this

I wasn’t pointing my finger at anyone nor was I talking down to anyone. Yes you are right that its a free country, and just as you are entitled to your beliefs, so am I. And to RF I agree with you that its more about class than race, but race still plays a major role.

By RF

November 17, 2005 11:50 AM | Link to this

me— who threw the stones of racism first? I don’t think it was the “white folk”. You have no idea of my ethnicity, nor I yours, but the minute the chance arrives, we throw the trump card of racism and then wonder why people don’t agree with us! I knew it was going to happen today when I read the topic that somehow it would end up with us yelling “racism”. We tell them not to throw stones, but we’re the one throwing them here by our assumptions and stereotyping of comments that had nothing to do with race.

By Karen Armsby

November 17, 2005 11:57 AM | Link to this

Jim, You are exactly right! We built our house in Gwinnett 21 years ago becuase my husband got a job with Rockwell in Duluth. Industry and business has been invited and have become well established in Gwinnett County, and most of Gwinnett residents work here also. I work in Atlanta, and commute, but I also enjoy what Atlanta has to offer. I have two kids who have gone to Georgia Tech, and my husband’s family lives ITP. We ride MARTA to the airport, attend sports and cultural events and eat out in Atlanta, and I care not who of what color is sitting around me. I enjoy the company of anyone who can behave in a civil manner and let us all enjoy our time out.

By jim dumond

November 17, 2005 11:57 AM | Link to this

EC, my lily white area of Gwinnett is made up of an Asian, Hispanic, Black, Indian population with a few of us white boy’s thrown in for good measure. Be careful when you generalize.

And every school in the country has a few gangs in them.

Have a great day my friend,

Lily White Jim :-)

By Travis

November 17, 2005 11:58 AM | Link to this

This country is slowly, or rapidly (depends on your level of optimism) falling apart. Maybe we should all separate and create our own self-governing entities based upon culturalistic and moral guidelines, not race or ethnicity. Which, I believe is what flight from deteriorating areas is attempting to accomplish, but usually failing for many reasons and further complicating things since one day there will be no where to run to anymore - every area will be blighted.

There are people from all races and all socio-economic levels that are bad and lead to the further demoralization and reduction in well-being of this nation.

The good, decent people, regardless of color or wealth, need to stand up for what made this country great (i.e. hard work, integrity, values) and begin a counter-revolution to re-establish American preeminence in the world and within our own boundaries.

America has many problems these days, from record trade and budget deficits, weak foreign policy, a flailing international image, a rapidly demoralizing military, terrorism, American corporations moving jobs overseas, unfettered illegal immigration, and the list goes on.

And, on top of that, Americans themselves are becoming less cohesive and united to defend our nation from the many problems we face.

I believe there is a correlation between minority neighborhoods and lower educational success and high crime rate; and I do believe there is a correlation between high immigrant populations and loss of property values, high crime rate, lack of respect for American culture, and what ever else is associated with ‘minority’ neighborhoods.

However, that doesn’t mean ALL minorities or ALL immigrants should be shunned and lumped in one giant category. Though, that is easier to say and harder to actually accomplish such a determination. Integration is crucial to the success of this country, but it seems that many immigrants and even many minorities do not want to intergrate with the majority, albeit slowly dwindlling majority. And, of course, there are those of the majority that don’t want ‘others’ to be a apart of their society.

This is a major problem that is further contributing to the splintering of America. But of course, there is no simple solution; heck, there may not even be a solution.

Additionally, the vast majority of this society has begun to develop and embrace the “I’m the King” attitude. Everyone wants to be King. People want success, money, glory, importance handed to them. Too many people are forgetting the core keys to success: HARD WORK and SELF-MOTIVATION.

America is a great place and will continue to be a great place as long as people stop pointing fingers and starting looking inward to ask themselves what they can do to make their life and the life of the community around them better.

How do we get this attitude to become prevalent among our culture again? I have no idea.

Maybe a start would be to turn off that trash on MTV and BET (probably the most corrupting force on the planet). But beyond that it is probably going to take a strong grass-roots effort. Government is usually incompetent and inept at creating and enforcing cultural norms and personal philosophies. Maybe the government can actually help by stemming the flow of illegal immigration (at the very least regulate it by worker-permit programs) and try to ensure that people moving to America want to become AMERICANS.

Just some thoughts.

By V

November 17, 2005 11:59 AM | Link to this

RF I feel you on what you’re saying, its a crying shame that the race card always have to be thrown in. I have to wonder sometimes and laugh. I grew up where were we were mainly the only black family on the street and not once did anyone move just because we moved in. I have never experienced so much race related issues, drama until I moved to the deep south. Come on EC its all about class, it becomes a race issue if you allow it.

By EC

November 17, 2005 12:12 PM | Link to this

RF, your last comment that “the first stones of racism were not thrown by white people” has to be the most absurd thing I’ve heard all week. This is not a discussion about race so I wont touch on that right now. And to Jim I’m very aware that Gwinnett is wuite diverse, but anything close to bad? That it is not, you all are just dealing with the problems that come with a population boom. I for one get excited when I think of how diverse this city will be 20 years from now. I really think most folks are just scared of what they dont know about and are not open to change. And also every school does not have gangs, from my experience while studying for my undergrad at UCLA in SoCal everything that you would call a gang outside of Los Angeles County and Chicago is just a fake imitation. Those people who you call gang members are actually lost individuals, who are trying to find their identity. In the inner city you dont have a gang problem, its only the wannabes who live in the suburbs. You wont find gang activity on MLK or Bankhead beacuse those youngsters know that they live in ATL, GA not California or Chicago

By jim dumond

November 17, 2005 12:26 PM | Link to this

Ok, so they’re a gang of wannabe’s but then that does constitute a gang doesn’t it? They attempt to emulate the “real gang”

Are you active in schools are you aware of what’s really going on inside those walls? If not, we could use you brother, get involved.

By EC

November 17, 2005 12:27 PM | Link to this

@Travis- How dare you say that immigrants who are new to this country have a lack of respect for American values. Did the Puritans have respect for the values of the local Mowhawk tribe when they “settled” into present day Pennsyvania? Did the English respect the local Cherokee tribes when they “settled” present day Georgia? I think not, the next time you have one of those thoughts think about whether or not the forefathers of our great country had respect for the people who were here thousands of years before they were. What are you afraid that the Mexicans and other newcomers are going to come here and murder droves of innocents, and ship the rest off to live in what amounts to concentration camps? Highly implausible, but most do come here wishing to make a better living for themselves. The same thing that your forefathers came here searching for

By RF

November 17, 2005 12:30 PM | Link to this

EC- I was directing that comment at the blogger posting as ‘me’. Those comments, I felt, were unnecessarily inflammatory. Your comments didn’t come across that way, and were quite right. And on this blog today, I’ve not read many derogatory comments posted by anyone seeming to be white. A few perhaps, but I felt that “me” was trying to incite argument that wouldn’t contribute anything useful to this discussion. Didn’t mean to offend. I just have little patience for those on either side who take any issue remotely connected to race and start throwing out comments to make people argue. It’s counterproductive and unnecessary in my mind.

By Travis

November 17, 2005 12:34 PM | Link to this

I apologize EC, apparently my post went over your head.

In no way am I against immigration.

I am a product of immigration and a mix of different ethnicities that, like you said, came to America for a better life. However, they came to America LEGALLY. Furthermore, when they came to America they embraced American culture and encouraged my parents (on one side) and grandparents (on the other) to learn English, and to strive to accomplish the American Dream. While respecting American culture, they retained and respected their own culture. Respect is the key word in this ‘melting-pot’. Many great things come from many cultures.

Legal immigration should be emraced; ILLEGAL immigration should be prohibited. Or, as I stated, possibley create a worker permit program to regulate the migrant workers that come into this nation. Immigration is what makes this country a wonderful place, and it enables our economy to keep chuggin along. However, it must be regulated in some way.

This is a different world than when the Puritans came over and our policies need to reflect that.

By EC

November 17, 2005 12:38 PM | Link to this

@ Jim

Im off today but I work for the City of Atlanta, and I work under a particular program called Next Step. If your not familiar with it we help to send every graduating senior from APS either to college, trade school, or a job that has some potential for advancement. Aside from the fact that Im less than 10 years removed from high school myself. My jobs entails me having to actually go out to different schools and meet with students, parents, teachers, etc on a daily basis. Some schools are in decent areas such as Mays High, others are in not so decent areas, such as Crim High or South Atlanta High. I dont know what you do or where you come from but I probably see more outside of my place of residence in a day than you see in a year

By SET

November 17, 2005 12:39 PM | Link to this

It seems like a lot of us on this blog are unhappy about the conditions that lead to the “flight” situation and the hopeless schools in general.

It seems to me that if we go back to the early 1960’s before Johnson’s great society and before the excesses of the Civil Rights movement we have a point where everybody expected things to get better generation by generation.

Despite the aparthied issues of 1962, we were not being invaded by Mexico and the racial situation was improving steadily. Morehouse, Meharry and Howard and the other black schools were turning out black professionals who were gradually integrating the professions. Poor people of all colors including blacks consisted of a mother and a father and their children.

And they didn’t have to stay poor. There was the best education in the world in our state grammar and secondary schools including the “poor” ones. The military was a way out if one decided to go or were drafted and after that there was veteran’s preferences in civil service.

Everybody was kept in line by the marketplace. If you used dope or were foolish in your choice of mates and reproduction you went to the gutter or the Salvation Army. When it’s sink or swim time people took swimming lessons seriously.

This was all replaced with Johnson’s Great Society. People could behave any way they wanted and they were entitled to free hospitals, food stamps, monthly allowances, etc. Criminals were no longer executed and with the advent of conjugal visits they could reproduce from prison. Affirmative action meant that every black (weren’t a lot of other significant minorities) professional was presumably unqualified and only there because of race preference. Before you had to be clearly better than most to be a minority in a professional position. Now as a black professional you have to prove yourself every day.

Thanks President Johnson. You should have listened to Daniel Moynihan.

The problems we all in varying ways complain of will abate if we:

Roundup, relocate and imprison illegals who don’t clear out of the country by a deadline. Impose draconian penalties to all that enable illegals to exist here otherwise (make it very unprofitable).

Eliminate all financial supports to the “poor”. No welfare to speak of, no free hospitals, no housing. Calcutta level of poverty for those who are poor. Combined with extreme tax advantages and reduced payroll taxes for entry level, domestic and ag worker employment.

Jack booted law enforcement for violent crime and all repeat criminals. Lifetime parole, Corporal Punishment, some Prison at hard labor (slavery?), loss of citizenship (no voting, jury service, public office or employment) By this I do not mean all criminals. Just violent crime and repeat felons. In other words, we copy Maylasia, Singapore and other Asian nation corrections methods. Costs less and less recividism.

Eliminate mandatory education at 15 and screen out for anti-socials even before then. Lower performing individuals need to join the work force early because they work with their hands and their backs not their brains. They are ready for vocational schools, apprenticeships and McDonalds at 15. They shouldn’t be in class with people who can read.

If we go to sink or swim and offer swimming lessons we will not have to spend our existance “saving” drowning people who never stop drowning. Let people drown. The drowning will stop soon because people will learn to swim. No matter what race.

And let the free market operate. Put rap sheets on the internet, follow the Constitution’s right of a s s o c i a t i o n. Recind all anti-discrimination laws as applied to private parties (not government operations). You will see a lot of people re-joining unions, American Express, fraternities, churches, AAA, or whatever and working out their own terms of a s s o c i a t i o n.

As far as Affirmative Action - I’ve got news - it’s dying. That doesn’t mean race isn’t a part of business and social decisions in both directions. But the entitlement cannot be justified in the 21st century. Nobody cares about slavery anymore. And discrimination never did truthfully explain the troublesome behavior and gaps we see. We just once thought it might. There are still some who cling to that notion. You’ve lost the argument.

By jim dumond

November 17, 2005 12:48 PM | Link to this

You well may, EC.

Personally I set on a school council in Gwinnett, volunteer at our schools in any capacity to help, work with a bunch of nearly lily white boy scouts :-), and own my own business. Let me say though that I spent over 20 years providing service in area’s of town like E.Lake, the Bankhead/Simpson area and yes even traveled the Campbellton area.

And thank you for Being so involved in the community. Keep up the good work.

By EC

November 17, 2005 12:52 PM | Link to this

@SET Despite the ignorance that you have displayed in your previous posts, I somewhat agree with what you just said.

By Monica

November 17, 2005 12:54 PM | Link to this

SET, Can you run for President? I think that what you say, while extreme, makes a lot of sense!!

Didn’t you mention in a previous post that you are not white? You can also go down in history for being the first non-white President! You will get my “white” vote.

By L Stone

November 17, 2005 12:55 PM | Link to this

V, I would like to agree with you on how many regional issues often have the race card thrown in. I moved here 18 months ago from Texas (Majority Minority). I have felt from the beginning that Georgia was a beautiful state with many economic and cultural offerings. However, the one thing that I was totally unprepared for was the open blatant racism that permeates every facet of society here. The city that I moved from was very diverse, with similar size populations of whites, black and hispanics. There was also a small, but rapidly growing Asian population. I lived in a modest neighborhood with all of the aforementioned races living on my block. My kids went to integrated schools, considered desirable for their test scores and graduation rates. When there were problems in the schools, the parents looked at the problems with an emphasis on solving the problems rather than simply seeking someone to blame. My kids are bi-racial and inter-racial relationships and marriages were quite common in my area. When our neighborhoods deteriorated, the city government and the citizens looked to creating mixed-income housing and mixed use zoning to solve the problems. I moved to Atlanta expecting a similar mode of thinking due to the demographics. I have never in my life been in the grocery store and been looked at with such animosity by those racially different than myself. Every significant social issue immediately becomes a race issues (i.e. the panhandling ordinance). Somehow, what began as an important issue, becomes secondary to name-calling, finger-pointing and stereotyping. Even my kids (16 and 18) are dumbfounded by their peer reactions as they attempt to develop relationships. Before someone tells me to go back where I came from, please know that I am trying. I thought that I would become accustomed to the culture here with time, but it only seems to offend me more. It is not a black or white issue, it is an issue of people unwilling to look beyond at problems beyond an “I’m right and you’re different, so you must be wrong” attitude. It is irrelevant if I am black, white, or hispanic. My intended flight (as soon as I can get assigned to a project in another state) is based on an unwillingness to subject my family to any more complacent, apathetic mud-slinging with no desire for improvement of the situation on the part of many Atlantans of all socio-economic backgrounds.

By MusingLee

November 17, 2005 12:58 PM | Link to this

We have a lot of problems in this country that can’t be solved in one post. But, in general everyone wants a better quality of life. Problems arise when people go about it in a way that is not deemed appropriate. That goes for the poor or wealthy. Whether it’s peddling drugs or some CEO investment scam. We all are trying to get ahead. One problem is the moral decline in our society. We live in a fast paced society and sometimes when people can’t get what they want by acceptable means, they get there by other ways. Black, Whites and Hispanics and Asians are all subject to the same moral decline at some point. Intergration is something we should strive for in the South and other areas. History has shown that separation has caused problems before, why not give integration a shot and work together to better this country. We are all riding in a sinking boat, it doesn’t help to have people riding along doing nothing complaining that the people throwing water overboard are doing it wrong.

By john

November 17, 2005 01:13 PM | Link to this

hmmm….White (affluent) flight is wrong and Gentrification is wrong. If an affluent famliy moved from a declining area to a totally poor one and drove up rents they would certainly burn in hell.

By Travis

November 17, 2005 01:17 PM | Link to this

It’s great how the majority of people on this post have such poignant and thougtful observations and solutions (e.g. Musinglee, L Stone, SET, Jim, Monica, and the list goes on).

Now, if we could just get such thoughts in the mainstream/rest of the public (or even if they are mainstream, get more people involved) and require our government to be as sensible.

As Musinglee stated all of our problems can’t be solved in one post, but it is nice to have a place where people can vent/muse/rant/suggest/vocalize their opinions without being subject to the politically correctness restraints or other overzealous criticisms that sometimes permeate sensitive discussions.

By me

November 17, 2005 01:18 PM | Link to this

Dear RF,

As the saying goes, a hit dog will holler. All I did was point the observations that I have made, and the fact that you found my comments to be “unnecessarily inflammatory” really supports my “stones/glass houses” saying.

As Judge Judy Sheindlin once wrote, please don’t pee on me and tell it’s raining. There are so many posts that have subliminal messages about “the minorities are the death of this country” that Stevie Wonder can see what they mean. I suggest that you remove the cataracts of ignorance from your eyes.

By RF

November 17, 2005 01:28 PM | Link to this

me—I was just trying to point out the fact that one reason there seems to be such resentment in ATL is due, in large part, to the ideas that many have that any discussion involving race is immediately white-against-black racism. I personally thought most of the commenters were seeing this as an economic issue, not a racial one. Anything can be twisted and interpreted. The hollering dog also gets ignored after a while if his hollering is always about the same thing. We can see this as a racial argument, but it’s just not. Go to south Fulton and ask the almost 100% black population moving there why they’re doing it. Are they racist against their own, or are they simply trying to take advantage of an opportunity to be in a better neighborhood with those of similar economic goals/priorities? Race may play a role for some, but the majority here seems to be more concerned about the quality of the neghborhoods, not race. Didn’t mean to offend you—just trying to keep the discussion from disintegrating into another mud-slinging race argument that doesn’t need to keep being forced into every discussion.

By RF

November 17, 2005 01:33 PM | Link to this

me—“remove your cataracts of ignorance”…now that’s an adult way to make a point. Don’t accuse others of throwing stones and justify your own throwing of boulders. Just so you know, I live in a very diverse neighborhood and have friends there and elsewhere of all ethnic origins. We don’t look at each other and count heads while we interpret each other’s remarks. You hear and read what you choose, and I’ll continue to live the reality of diversity without hatred. Have a good day and I wish you success in your quest to find racism where it doesn’t exist. Cervantes wrote a very humorous account of a man who “tilted at windmills” and saw them as monsters. It’s all about perception.

By Susie

November 17, 2005 01:35 PM | Link to this

We moved from a south Fulton town 10 miles south to Coweta county the summer our first child was about to start school. It wasn’t so much the racial makeup of this small town, but the new next door neighbors with the chickens and roosters did NOT make our decision hard for us. A subdivision is no place for livestock, and there need to be town/city ordinances against it.

By InTown & Prowd

November 17, 2005 01:46 PM | Link to this

I’m I’m going to intentionally stir up the pot.

With the increase in-town gentrification, the schools in our ‘hoods are becoming some of the best of the city. For instance, Grady High School has average SAT scores that rival those in the more affluent suburbs of North Fulton, Gwinnett, and Cobb county. In contrast the luddites who move further and further from the core into the exurbs are depriving their children of a proper education of diversity and tolerance; particularly when they home school and isolate their precious offspring and / or promote divisive Intelligent Design curriculum.

By me

November 17, 2005 01:50 PM | Link to this

One other thing…did I not say that ALL races have their ills? Apparently, you must’ve skipped that part.

So that you won’t keep wondering, I am black (and proud of it). I also know that blacks can be more discriminating than other races toward our own (i.e. light-skinned vs. dark-skinned). However, I have seen too many posts that reflect the attitudes of a lot of people who blame blacks, Hispanics, and others for the downfall of society, most particularly in education. There are too many who feel that multiculturalism has not place in education (check other posts)and to teach about Black History, Hispanic History, and other ethnic histories is a waste of time and is un-“American”. How insulting is that? Another post for another day.

Anyway, if my family and I could “flee” to somewhere, it would be because I want more land and house for the money. And, yes, I would like to live in a neighborhood where there are people who have the same values that I have, like a good education and Godly values. They can be black, white, polka dot, whatever.

By Susie

November 17, 2005 01:57 PM | Link to this

This is to John Wesley: So I should put my kids in bad schools to make them better? how about make the schools better and I’ll put my kids in them! My kids aren’t responsible for the un-dumbing-down of a school. I ran into an old neighbor from our old south fulton county neighborhood two summers after we moved. They had just moved to Coweta. (remember, this was only about a 10 mile move.) When they got the second grade curriculum of what their daughter needed to know to start 2nd grade, and ended up having to home school her through the summer to get her ready for second grade. She was already behind. So no, my kids won’t be put in an inferior school to “make it better.”

By MusingLee

November 17, 2005 02:12 PM | Link to this

The problem that Susie describes with the education system is a valid one. However, this adds to the notion that education is the schools fault entirely. Parents should be on a continous job of educating their children. You can’t expect the school to teach your child everything. Although your old neighbors were given a curriculum and had to catch up. Curriculums are designed to give the child a basic understanding of each subject studied. If you want them to become exceptional, you have to put in time with them at home. We as informed adults know what our children will face in school. When your kids come home and study for 8 minutes, and they are done the rest of the night. You know that there should be something that you can give them. We can’t afford to be passive in our childrens education. Other countries, espesially the European countries are leaps and bounds ahead of us in the education process. When I have children, if they have mastered fractions, I am starting them on what comes next. We can’t leave some things to chance and complain about it later.

By me

November 17, 2005 02:13 PM | Link to this

RF-While you did not offend me with your posts, I do apologize for any offense on my part. The “cataracts of ignorance” could be interpreted as abrasive, but I meant what I said. Just because you choose not to “find racism” does not mean that it does not exist.

Now, for the record, I have NO hatred against ANYONE. I view myself as a realist who calls them as I see them. I respect people of ALL races. As I’ve said in previous posts, ignorance, as well as intelligence, comes in ALL colors.

By Tim

November 17, 2005 02:15 PM | Link to this

After reading the different threads, I find the level of anger and passion at once amazing and foreboding. Amazing because the dialogue reflect a continuing struggle about the core values of this country and forboding because passion is blind and prime fuel for war. It’s the most dangerous of all social emotions. Once unleashed no one can envison the outcome. As a man who has fought in many different conflicts, I speak from experience.

Truly, some of you folk scare the hell out me.

By jim dumond

November 17, 2005 02:26 PM | Link to this

Tim, you were surprised?

Patti’s lead into this thread should have made it abundentantly clear that this would become a rather nasty blog. I rather hesitated a couple of days before posting on this one just due to that fact. Face it, some of these bloggers just aren’t real nice people or someone you’d want living next door, regardless of race.

By RF

November 17, 2005 02:41 PM | Link to this

me—I suppose we all get a little overly passionate about our beliefs, don’t we? I’m glad we live in a land where at least we have the right to express our opinions. I too get a little jumpy about people’s thoughts and overanalyze what they write. One thing to consider is this: I think it’s at least possible that we make too much out of comments people make about minority issues. If a person makes a comment, and is apparently not a minority, we take it to extremes. I don’t doubt that there are some who truly are racist, but don’t you think it’s possible that some opinions may be observations NOT motivated by racial dislike? I apologize for taking your comments too personally. I guess I try so hard to break the stereotypes, and I worry about the perpetuation of them in the way we perceive and interpret one another.

By Meg

November 17, 2005 02:45 PM | Link to this

SET, I would vote for you. Travis, have you ever heard of Christianexodus.org? Their goal is to re-establish states rights in South Carolina through third party voting, or secede. Vermont is also looking at secession as an option. The Federal government cares about nothing but lining their own pockets, they have no interest in controlling immigration or protecting the rights of individuals. Their goals are the oppsite, in fact. If we had true states rights then diversity would be no problem, each state could cater to the majority and if you didn’t agree you could move to a state that reflects your views. That’s real diversity. Secession, states rights, can you tell I’m Southern? yee haw.

By Gina

November 17, 2005 02:45 PM | Link to this

Everyone in this blog should read this series

www.nytimes.com/indexes/2005/05/15/national/class/index.html?8dpc

By me

November 17, 2005 03:06 PM | Link to this

RF—I can really appreciate your efforts, and, no, my comments are not personal. Perhaps, I, too, overanalyzed your comments. I apologize. I guess I interpreted your comments as “if I don’t see it, then it’s not there.” You may not be one, but there are people who believe that if they don’t acknowledge that evil t exist, then the evil will just go away. The funny thing is, RF, is that I have black friends who feel the same way (remember that I’m black). They feel that because they haven’t experienced discrimination and prejudice personally, then it’s no big deal. Believe me, they tick me off just as much (actually more) as any other person who sits by and tolerates injustice. So, as you can see, I’m an equal opportunity “hater”. ;-)

By MusingLee

November 17, 2005 03:15 PM | Link to this

@ Gina That is a great article. The one statistic that I found very intriguing was the correlation between faith in God and income. It suggests that the less money a certain class earns the more faith they had in God. Just because we are discussing the topic today, I would love to see the numbers buy ethnic group to that statistic. That’s a topic for another day.

By RF

November 17, 2005 03:25 PM | Link to this

me- I hadn’t really thought much about it, but I suppose there’s a lot of discrimination within all races. I know how much I tend to look down upon my own sometimes, and I can admit I’ve never really been on the receiving end of it. I think those of us who have never lived it judge people more without realizing we’re doing it. Hmmmmm, I’ll have to ponder that idea a while and see if I catch myself at it.

By Tim

November 17, 2005 03:29 PM | Link to this

No Meg, I can’t tell that you are southern.

By Tater

November 17, 2005 03:54 PM | Link to this

I moved from a lily-white neighborhood of 150K homes to a very diverse neighborhood of 600K homes(just so you don’t have to ask— my granny died and left me a little cash).

I am confused—-what kind of “flight” did I take??

By Tim

November 17, 2005 04:21 PM | Link to this

Tater!! Where have you been! Parts of this blog needed an enema and you just did the job! There nothing more disarming than truth based humor.

By RF

November 17, 2005 04:34 PM | Link to this

dang Tater—you just summed up the entire day’s blog in one short post!! I’m hearing “weeel, we’re movin’ on up!” in the background. All comes down to economics, bless your granny’s sweet bank account!

By Zoe

November 17, 2005 04:34 PM | Link to this

For the person saying integration was not forced in the north, that is not true. I attended schools in a northern city. The year I entered preK (1977) was the year the school system was forced to integrate under court order. The school system had been drawing weird school attendance zones to keep blacks and whites at certain schools. I was bussed from one side of the city to another to attend school. The court order was finally lifted about 7 or 8 years ago when the school system (once 80% white/20% black) became majority black. The city’s population is still majority white even though the school system is not. This “white flight” is occurring all over the country. There is a perception that city schools are bad and parents are sending their kids to private schools or are moving out of the cities to the ‘burbs. In Atlanta, most people moving ITP are people without children, have children that aren’t school age yet or can afford an ITP private school.

Also, you mentioned Boston. Read “Common Ground” and see what happened when black students were bussed into the South End to attend schools in the 70s.

Currently, the county I teach in is experiencing “middle class” flight.” It has one of the lowest average home prices in the metro area and three are tons of section 8 houses and apartment complexes offering 2 or 3 months of free rent for signing a lease. This brings down a school. The more transient and poor a school population is, the worse it does. Yes, there are exceptions, the problem is getting parents to “buy in” and help. And I agree, parents who care should not have to raise the children of other people. I find it interesting that when M to M was in force in Georgia, the parents sending their children to schools in other attendance zones never seemed to realize it was the parents that made the school, not the teachers or students. Parents augment what teachers and administrators do. When students come to school with no home training, very little learning goes on.

By Juan Tuno DaTruth

November 17, 2005 04:38 PM | Link to this

No matter where you move I will be there.. I will continue to leave junks cars parked on the grass, leave firewood piled beside my house (with no fireplace), and have chickens in my backyard feasting on the vast plains that you stole from our cousins. Spanish is not the language that you must learn mi amigos.. It is Hindi or Arabic.. They are responsible for the silent take over that you fail see coming. It’s almost like the “Trojan Horse” that was given to Troy, a gift that turns deadly. We come to work and make your lives easier, they come to take your work away as they smile and bobble their heads.

By Lee

November 21, 2005 09:19 AM | Link to this

It’s called freedom of association. It’s human nature. We try to find a common denominator - something that we can relate to. Sometimes it crosses the racial line, most times, it does not. I would not feel comfortable in a room full of day laborers just as I would not feel comfortable in a room full of corporate CEOs. Why, because I have no experiences to relate to them.

When we’re talking “white flight”, we’re not talking about someone moving out of a $500k home because a black doctor moved next door. We’re talking about an older neighborhood of modest homes. Often, these homes are bought by investors as rental properties. The landlords do not care who rents these houses, only that they are getting their rent. As the percentage of home ownership decreases, so too does the perception of neighborhood. Longtime residents notice the decline of the neighborhood and begin looking for another place to live. The neighborhood then begins a death spiral which results in a depressed area with high crime, abandoned houses, and lowered standards of living.

Here’s a project for all you Sociology teachers. Plot a graph of changing demographics where an area went from significantly majority white (over 90%) to majority black or hispanic and on that graph, also plot the crime rate. After you do that, then maybe you can see why white people do not want to live in minority neighborhoods.

By jim dumond

November 24, 2005 08:14 AM | Link to this

Interestingly during my morning surf I came across an article entitled, What White Flight? Written by Thomas Sowell

I immediately thought of the many comments I’d read on this blog and wanted to share some of Mr. Sowell’s thoughts. In part he writes; “It is not just in residential patterns that people sort themselves out in many ways. People tend to marry other people with similar IQs, even when they don’t know what those IQs are. They just tend to gravitate toward people whose levels of understanding are similar to their own.â€?

Read the entire article [here}— {http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=10495}

By Ernest

November 28, 2005 11:26 AM | Link to this

Jim, great recommendation of the Dr. Sowell article! It really makes you think about what ‘flight’ really is. I would encourage others to read it also.

By jim dumond

November 28, 2005 11:35 AM | Link to this

@Ernest

Indeed, I found this comment by Dr. Sowell to be most revealing.

“The fact that people sort themselves out in many ways is not usually a big problem — except to those people who cannot feel fulfilled unless they are telling other people what to do.”

By GC

November 29, 2005 04:29 PM | Link to this

ernie Logman says:

“Why is it called “White Flightâ€? when whites move from a declining area. I call it democracy in action since the people are voting with their feet.”

Comment: Oh really?

http://www.hyphenmagazine.com/blog/archives/2005/11/academic_overac.html

“When schools are perceived to be bad or in decline, white people will vote with their feet. They don’t hold protest marches, or try and keep newcomers out like the residents of Kirkwood did when their neighborhood was improving thru gentrification, they leave.”

Comment: Only when schools are in decline, not when the academic standards are high?

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-0511290195nov29,1,5765860.story?coll=chi-opinionfront-hed

“They vote with their feet because to do anything else you risk being called a “racistâ€? or an “antiâ€?

When someone no longer feels comfortable where they live because the signs for businesses are in a foriegn language, or the crime rate has increased, THEY MOVE. it is the smart thing to do.”

Comment: When some white person no longer feels comfortable where they live because their son (white) is dating a female of another race (Asian), or academic standards are very high and the crime is low, whites also move. It is what Professor Kruse calls white racism and bigotry plain and simple.

http://www.emorywheel.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2005/11/04/436b8723755f8

By JIMMY

November 30, 2005 10:22 AM | Link to this

I AM GUILTY OF WHITE FLIGHT FOR A DIFFERENT REASON.ALL THE SENIOR CITIZENS IN MY OLD NEIGHBORHOOD THAT COULD AFFORD IT HAVE MOVED OUT AS MORE BLACK FAMILIES WITH TEENAGERS MOVED IN.DRUGS AND GUNS WERE BECOMING ALL TO COMMON ON THE STREET.ALMOST ALL OF THE NEW FAMILIES ARE WITHOUT A FATHER IN THE HOUSE.IT IS NOT UNUSUAL TO SEE A MOTHER WITH FIVE KIDS AND THEY ALL HAVE A DIFFERENT LAST NAME.