By Vicki

November 7, 2005 01:49 PM | Link to this

I have a child in the TAG Program at our school. His TAG class meets once a week and he really enjoys that day at school so much more than any other day of the week. He comes home talking about what was studied and how it can be applied to real life situations. The other days at school he comes home only talking about his math class (he’s a grade level ahead) and P.E., art, music or who misbehaved in class. I would like for the system to allow for the TAG students to be able to have more days of special instruction. Unfortunately, for the students who participate in this program they only have a single day to think out of the box and really challenge their thinking capabilities.

At home, I keep my children busy with mindbenders, puzzles and lots and lots of math.

By Ernest

November 7, 2005 01:54 PM | Link to this

This is a tough one as every parent will probably have a different opinion as to what should be done based on their child. I was not satisfied with the gifted enrichment my children received in their early years. I felt much of the enrichment centered on ‘quantity’ of work rather that ‘quality and depth’. Magnet programs helped because they were in environment where there were many children ‘like them’ thus were not ostracized for being smart. It was easier as a parent because now there were more ‘like me’ who were pushing for the same thing, which made my advocacy for more rigor somewhat easier.

Magnets and their teachers should be scrutized also. I once asked a magnet teacher to differentiate the instruction in their class versus the regular ed classes. They couldn’t. They merely pointed to the content goals set forth by QBE. I didn’t have ‘warm and fuzzies’ after that conversation. It took speaking to people higher up to get clarification.

By Jake

November 7, 2005 02:01 PM | Link to this

The gifted pullout class for my daughter was language arts for one hour one day a week in elementary school as one teacher served all grades for three schools. There were gifted Language Arts and Science classes available in her middle school. Lastly, in middle school the principal planned to offer only Language Arts after the school failed NCLB (due only to special ed scores). Back in the Darker Ages I changed schools in 5th gade to attend one that had all day class every day for gifted children that included a foreign language beginning in second grade. It’s clear we’re underserving our gifted children as we teach to the lowest common denominator required by NCLB.

By Zoe

November 7, 2005 02:17 PM | Link to this

I currently teach high school gifted students. Most are taking at least 3, sometimes 4 or 5 gifted/honors/AP classes, depending on what is available. They constantly complain their other classes are too easy. If they complain and they have 15-20 hours of advanced work a week, can you imagine what it is like for elementary students that only see their gifted teacher 5 hours a week? The state says gifted kids only need a minimum of 5 contact hours a week, but most parents of gifted kids know they need more. However, to offer more would bring on charges of elitism. Look at the situation at Kittredge Elementary, where parents fight to have their kids admitted. Obviously there is a demand on the part of many parents of gifted children for more demanding and rigorous coursework.

All gifted teachers go through 200 hours of training to teach gifted classes in Georgia. Teachers teaching superficial topics to gifted students are not doing what they are trained to do and are doing a disservice to our students.

Unfortunately, NCLB is content with mediocrity and bringing up the bottom and ignoring the top. Just because a student can pass the mandated assessments does not mean he/she is working to the best of his/her ability.

By Angry White Boy

November 7, 2005 02:41 PM | Link to this

Same sad story. The cure for cancer remains undiscovered so Laquinta and Jose can read at a 6th grade level by the time they finish high school. Our tax dollars at work!

By crh

November 7, 2005 02:48 PM | Link to this

I am gifted certified and AP certified and have spent over 30 years in education. In high school, we get no money for the gifted program. When I started teaching, gifted students had the same protections as special education students. Today special education and low level students get all the money in NCLB and gifted students get nothing. Who will be our future research scientists, doctors, lawyers etc? Our gifted students will be but they are not getting the education or money that is needed. One day a week pull-out program in elementary school is not acceptable. Special education classes have 5-7 students yet my AP classes sometime have 32 students. Gifted education needs to be a major concern for our next governor and president.

By Dan

November 7, 2005 02:50 PM | Link to this

Why can’t kids simply progress at their own rate. For example let the 4th grade math whiz attend the 5th or 6th grade math class while staying in the 4th grade class for other courses. It may not have the same benefits as a “gifted program” but it is better than not challenging the student and it would not require incremental funding

By Dan

November 7, 2005 02:57 PM | Link to this

Not trying to be argumentative CRH but if an AP class has so many students. Wouldn’t that possibly suggest that it is too easy? Shouldn’t AP be restricted to say the top 5-10%, then if it starts getting crowded the whole curriculum could shift up? I mean if a high percentage of students are in Advanced placement then it isn’t really very advanced. (at least relatively speaking) What would be the downfall here? Certainly it seems like it would beneficial to testing as well (at least in subjects that continuously build year over year)

By Ernest

November 7, 2005 02:58 PM | Link to this

I tried what Dan suggests. I was told no because other parents might want the same for their children :x. Supposedly there are additional instructional dollars for gifted children. I question whether it is used as intended, especially in schools that may not have a large gifted population.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

November 7, 2005 03:04 PM | Link to this

I’m fine with the program and my daughter enjoys it. I don’t want the gifted program to become just another SAT/CRCT prep class. It should offer advance-thinking skills only. I love the brainteaser questions she brings home each week; they make me think as well.

However, I feel that gifted children can be very useful to the school, by being mentors to other children. My daughters school allows the gifted and higher achieving students to work with kids in lower grades. My daughter reads and does math games with a little girl in second grade. Working with this child has been the highlight of 5th grade for my daughter.

By Ernest

November 7, 2005 03:04 PM | Link to this

Dan, unfortunately your point of restricting participation in AP classes goes against equity and access for all. Studies show that having access to these types of classes helps prepare students for success in college. Our school system (DeKalb) is trying to make these opportunites available to more students.

The College Board is placing additional scrutiny on AP course content and instructors going forward. This may ‘weed out’ those that shouldn’t be in place currently.

By Kris

November 7, 2005 03:11 PM | Link to this

The only problem with putting students ahead in classes and not having gifted classes associated with their own grade is that if they are 2 years ahead in math when they hit 4th grade, there is nowhere for them to go unless a parent or school bus is available to shuttle them back and forth from the middle school and both schools are willing to work around that commute schedule. Also, I had 20-30 students in my AP class, but I had a class of 1000 kids. Because they were only willing to fund 2 sessions of AP classes, we were forced to split that top 5-10% into those two classes.

By high school teacher

November 7, 2005 03:11 PM | Link to this

Dan,

School systems are encouraged to recruit kids into the AP programs, unfortunately. The current philosophy in education is that “all students can learn” and that all students, if pushed and motivated enough by miracle worker teachers, can earn top scores on AP exams. I guess the current legislators also saw “Stand and Deliver.”

By Swangirl

November 7, 2005 03:13 PM | Link to this

It is possible for an AP class to have a lot of students in it if the school population is fairly large. It’s a great program when the instruction is good and kids aren’t sent there just to make the numbers look good.

In some cases, you’ll find a school boasting about the high number of kids taking AP courses. But the proof is in how well these kids do on the final test.

If there’s a large percentage of students not making a three or higher (scale of 1 to 5), which enables a student to get college credit of some kind, that should raise some concerns. Either the instruction isn’t up to high enough standards or the kids aren’t preparing adequatley for the tests.

I took AP English and American history in high school and it was HARD. But it did help me get a taste of what college work was going to be like. And our teachers impressed on us early on that the test would be very hard, that we needed to really prepare for it.

By Bill

November 7, 2005 03:14 PM | Link to this

I WISH we could have 10% of our population in AP classes - but it’s not really a matter of how many kids sign up, it’s about teacher allotment and class size. If 34 students sign up for AP Calculus, chances are it won’t be split into two sections of 17 students if another section of PreAlgebra is needed.

Further, if “so many students” are taking an AP class, maybe it’s because the teacher is doing an excellent job.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

November 7, 2005 03:18 PM | Link to this

What is with you guys always trying to weed out people? If you take the class and fail, that should be enough for the weedout process. Why should I have to take a test to get into a class, that is paid for by tax dollars for a public education? No one should be forces to take a class, but we should all have the opportunity to try a class. You are all so sure that just because little Johnny does not speak excellent English and does poorly in math, he can’t complete an AP History class successfully. Just maybe, Little Johnny is a history buff, with bad writting skills. That doesn’t mean he doesn’t know history.

We are so destine to back to the time before 1965.

By RF

November 7, 2005 03:36 PM | Link to this

SWC- generally I agree with you until you go too far. Would you want your child in a room with just any kid who thinks he’s good enough? We test to get into Gifted because we have to. We want the kids who are truly GIFTED. And believe me, the test is very comprehensive. My son took it last year. He didn’t pass it, so I didn’t want him in a class he would likely fail and be frustrated by. Anyone can take the test, but would it be fair to put a kid in a class and let him fail before he’s pulled out? That’s humiliating to the kid and frustrating to everyone else in the room. That’s the point of gifted classes- to give kids who qualify a chance to move ahead. It has nothing to do with race—anyone who wants to can take the test.

By RF

November 7, 2005 03:38 PM | Link to this

I meant to type Amazed at the beginning of that post. The rest stands as written.

By KABA

November 7, 2005 03:44 PM | Link to this

My three kids in Gwinnett Co. schools were all in gifted starting in 2nd grade. There definitely are not enough contact hours for gifted students in elementary school. And they need to add core curriculum subject areas, and materials way beyond the brain teaser and project stuff.

What helped my kids in elementary was ability grouping by class that the school did for the brighter kids in third through fifth grades. Middle school also did ability grouping in their teams (of 4 classes)and had whole teams of gifted teachers, so that was much much better.

The gifted/honors and AP classes in high school were good and the number of AP classes doubled from the time my oldest took her first available AP classes in senior year (‘99-‘00)to when my youngest started AP classes in sophomore year (‘01-‘02). AP classes prepared them well for the May exams for Math, Science, Language Arts and the Social Studies, but AP Economics did not prepare them at all and none of my kids made even a 3 on the AP exam. My youngest scored well enough to get 19 hours of credit and so was a sophomore after his first semester at UGA. Georgia Tech has higher requirements for AP scoring and my oldest and middle children only got 6 hours credit.

AP is the way to go, it requires more reading, independent work and gets them ready for college reading requirements. At my kids’ high school only the gifted and highest performing honors kids took AP classes, as all the rest didn’t want to risk their GPA’s by taking the harder AP courses, that they probably wouldn’t ace.

By em

November 7, 2005 03:50 PM | Link to this

The gifted certification program is a joke as is the program itself. It is just a means for local school sytems to get more FTE dollars.

By RF

November 7, 2005 03:53 PM | Link to this

em—have you actually taken the gifted certification class? 200 hours is NOT, I repeat, NOT a joke. Where did you take the class??

By jeff

November 7, 2005 03:55 PM | Link to this

take your kids out of a public school and put them into a good private school and they’ll be challenged everyday. For the “A” student in public school, most will be a “C” student in a hard private school.

By KABA

November 7, 2005 03:56 PM | Link to this

em, My kids gifted teachers were definitely better trained and equipped to teach the brighter students!

By Dan

November 7, 2005 04:01 PM | Link to this

Yeah I know there are all kinds of caveats and potential bottle necks with teachers etc. But my main point is, AP suggests advanced learning. This is a relative term. If 50% of the student body can succeed in such a class it is not advanced (at least for that given school) that is simply a mathematical fact. This isn’t about restricting anyone it is about EARNIMG the right for what should be an elite program. I am not suggesting it is easy, just seems the current situation is driven by that entitlement attitude that causes so many of the problems Another question for the teachers When I was in school high school AP meant you were entitled to test for college credit upon sucessful completion of the course and test. Is that still what it means, or is it now just an “honors class” of a sort

By RF

November 7, 2005 04:07 PM | Link to this

Dan— they still take the AP test for college credit. You still have to be ‘the best’ in the school to make it in AP. At least at my school, if you aren’t making the grade, for whatever reason, they take you out of AP.

By Dale

November 7, 2005 04:10 PM | Link to this

jeff—which private schools in the metro area would you consider “hard”? Thanks

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

November 7, 2005 04:15 PM | Link to this

RF - I never go too far when it comes to MY Opinion.

I’m just sick of the mentality that says, “I think you are stupid - need not applyâ€? attitudes. It’s like telling me to stay in my place and only speak when spoken too. Can a parent not have a vision of success for their child? Should a parent allow someone else to kill that dream, just because they don’t think it is achievable for that child? I am a firm believer that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. That goes for being gifted as well.

Do you know how many ideas that were first considered “Dumb�, have become the most successful? I’m sure that the Top 10% did not create all of our successful inventions.

I would bet the best inventions came from the bottom.

By David200

November 7, 2005 04:15 PM | Link to this

To: Amazed (Independent Woman)

I understand your position. The problem I have with it is that if Johnny is a history buff, his teachers should know it already and should take that into account in his history class. I do in my subject area. I have many kids that are disaffected in English and math classesand do quite weel in my science classes.

Gifted classes are supposed to be just that - for gifted students, not for “buffs.”

According to the “original definition” that meant the student was 2 standard deviations “smarter” than their age-group in all accademic areas. Unfortunately, a lot of people saw the money that was being given to these kids and wanted some of it for their own children (read as “politically connected parents”). If what I was told is correct (I’m a high school teacher so I don’t have a dog in this fight), all that is required to get a student state-classified as “gifted” in elementary school is the child must be recommended by three teachers and the child scores at a certain level (below the 2 standard deviations) in any of the areas being taught at your school: English, mathematics, art, kinesthetic/tactile (athletic), etc, etc, etc. This stretches out the money for gifted kids so that the gifted classes become more egalitarian. The pull-outs are how the schools are divving out the money as best they can. If your school is “culling” like RF’s school is, the program is being run as designed.

RF: I understand where you’re coming from, too. I have 4 kids. Three were almost instanted identified as gifted. One didn’t make it until the next year. It was a little difficult around the house during that time.

And as far as the 200 hours for becomming “gifted certified.” It’s like anything else. While I was taking the classes, I noticed a number of teachers dozing off (I almost did it once). Many teachers get gifted certified to get out of the regular classroom thinking that gifted kids are easier to teach. Nothing could be further from the truth.

By Teacher, Too

November 7, 2005 04:21 PM | Link to this

I have been teaching gifted for the past 17 years.

I have advocated for honors classes in middle school for those students who definitely need more challenging curriculum, yet may have missed the gifted classification by a few points, not matter how many different tests were given.

Also, there are many students who qualified in second or third grade, but when they reach middle school, would NEVER qualify based on new test information. However, unless they fail out, they get to stay in the program even if their testing data shows they are no longer “gifted”. Multiple criteria is sometimes a diservice for those students who truly are gifted.

By Angry White Boy

November 7, 2005 04:23 PM | Link to this

Amazed - Conzuela, who isn’t a citizen and therefore shouldn’t even be in taxpayer funded public schools, doesn’t need to be in AP anything or taken to the opera on the field trip for that matter. You confuse opportunity with entitlement. If Felipe passes the test he gets in AP class, that is opportunity. If everyone gets to try the class, that is entitlement.

By HS Science

November 7, 2005 04:29 PM | Link to this

Hitting the subject from both sides - as a parent and as a teacher. My sons that attended Mays H S in the math academy (classes 99 and 01) were challenged and it has paid off. Having taught in the Academy for a year it was a thrill to take the students to higher levels.

The classes were challenged beyong “Ok, here’s how you do it.” The students were pushed to get to the why. My classes had weekly Math Mind benders and loved the challenge. The rules were simple - use any math, explain how you arrived at your answer and no asking the teacher. Each week I was thrilled to see how they reached their conclusions - Sometimes it was also good to see a student say “I couldn’t solve it but here’s what I tried because …” I miss those students and have seen many since. Their joy was seeking knowlege for themselves.

There were weeks in Calculus where I would be on pins and needles waiting for them just to ask me so I could show them how to do a problem but the students perfered to research and if they asked me they viewed it as failure or the last resort. Many days were spent discussing applications in an open forum with me sitting on a sideline like a referee.

By Leia

November 7, 2005 04:32 PM | Link to this

I teach Gifted/Honors classes and an A.P. class as well. The biggest problem that I run into is kids who think my classes are too “hard” and wasnt to drop down to college prep level just so they can get a higher GPA. They don’t get additional points on their average (like A.P. courses), so they don’t see the value in working hard for a B or a C, when they can do nothing and get an A in college prep courses.

By Manny

November 7, 2005 04:36 PM | Link to this

Angry - OK, we get it. You’re clearly very hateful against brown people. Try to stay on-topic though!

By HS Science

November 7, 2005 04:37 PM | Link to this

To Amazed-

Often times parents and teachers do not see the same child. Now that I teach science I look for the child that does have the ability in science. By this I don’t think that a child that will work hard to make sure that they have answered every question correctly is gifted in science - they are a good student. The students that I recommend for Govenor’s Honors are the ones that thrist for knowledge and can explain their answers with reason. Often other teachers will snub my recommendations because so-and-so is quite and works hard, or so-and-so has poor grades in this. Most the my best testers and best science minds come from the child that doesn’t fit the mold of the brainy child.

By luvs2teach

November 7, 2005 04:44 PM | Link to this

Amazed - I think you are misunderstanding the AP course and its purpose. AP courses are supposed to be on-level with freshman and sophomore level COLLEGE classes. You don’t take the test to get INTO the course - you take it to get COLLEGE CREDIT (not yelling, just emphasizing).

My feeling is that the course work should be advanced - as advanced as a college course would be. Qualified students should be encouraged to take it, but be told, realistically, what it will entail. If you are not planning on taking the test, then you shouldn’t take up space in the course for someone who will attempt to use it for college placement - you should take honors instead (if you’re looking for the challenge).

By luvs2teach

November 7, 2005 04:52 PM | Link to this

For the other teachers out there:

How many of you had to fill out “alternate assessments” (like Renzulli forms) on kids who didn’t score in the top of their classes, but were to be evaluated for gifted some how?

For parents and others: Renzulli forms are questionaires about a child that asks questions about their creativity, tolerance and ability for independent work, curiousity, etc.

To all: How do you feel about alternative assessments for gifted programs? Is it fair that someone in one school doesn’t test well-enough, but makes it on other criteria, when other schools have so many that test well and some can’t get in?

By HS Science

November 7, 2005 04:54 PM | Link to this

One note on the “need not apply child” next year you will see the alternative to the self sealing tires. You’ll see cars that will have a jack come out and automatically jack up the car. An option will be the lug wrench that is set for the correct torque that will lossen the bolts and tighten the bolts for you that plugs into the car.

The patten was given to a former student that was great in art (it started as a scratch drawing of his dream car). He did not pass the Graduation tests until after leaving with a certificate of attendance. He failed out of a small college and now he has sold his patten to one of our major auto makers. Gifted comes in many forms.

By HS Science

November 7, 2005 04:59 PM | Link to this

I have filled out many Renzulli forms, because too many “good students” are not the great thinkers. We don’t need more people to operate a machine or duplicate a process - we need the creative minds that can contribute to areas that they have a special talent.

By Abby

November 7, 2005 05:01 PM | Link to this

This seems to be a hot topic, so I thought I would give my 2 cents worth. I guess I am a “fence-rider” on this subject. I believe it was “em” who said thay the gifted certification was a joke anyway and was used for FTE points for each school to get a little more money. I agree with this point and YES I have taken the class (DeKalb). However, I did learn many great things that I have applied to all of my classes both magnet and general ed. When I tried to transfer that was the one question all the principals wanted to know. Gifted certified? You should see their eyes light up! I feel totally that it was based on FTE points. Now back to my other point, the “gifted” student is not always the ones that would thrive in the toughest math and science class. Gifted students are not always who you think they are. So you need to be careful on how you classify these students.

I guess this is where the fence-riding comes from. I have many “gifted” students who do NOT need to be in advanced and I have several general ed students who could really excel in the magnet programs. I encouraged some of my general level students to sign up for advanced at least just to get in a class where the majority of students care about their grade. Sorry to be such a flip-flop but I do see both sides. I think you just have to give each child everything they need based on an individual basis.

By luvs2teach

November 7, 2005 05:01 PM | Link to this

You know, I do agree that “gifted” comes in many forms - you can’t teach or be a parent and not see this. But…not all forms of “gifted” are best served by an academically-focused gifted class - the fact that that’s all we offer is the true problem, IMHO.

Sometimes genius isn’t recognized because the forum for that genius isn’t available.

One-size-fits-all: a lie in the clothing store as well as education!

By Karen Armsby

November 8, 2005 08:14 AM | Link to this

I agree that there is not a one-size-fits-all gifted profile. There are math and science gifted, language arts gifted and artistic and musically gifted children that don’t necessarily excel in the other subjects.

I wish that elementary schools would allow students to move ahead as they master and excel in math and language arts. Why should we trap bright minds in a grade level for the entire school year when they could accomplish two years of work in one? Boredom in a class of average and below performers kills the inquisitive mind and breaks the bright child’s natural spirit to learn at a faster rate.

By Lillium

November 8, 2005 09:28 AM | Link to this

Why doesn’t someone develop a curriculum with strands and objectives for gifted ed students? Oh - right - one education shoe fits all - I forgot. And we’re not supposed to ability group - that’s pyschologicaly damaging. And all gifted students are gifted in reading in math - at least that’s what most gifted ed programs must think because that is what is primarily offered. Or that the definition of differentiation is “more work” not different.

And while the new regs for entry into the program was designed to “catch” students who might have language difficulties or may be gifted in the arts - it most definitely has a problem with being subjective (but don’t the arts anyway?).

I love to learn - I was bored and felt out of place in school. So I became a teacher - go figure (and certified in gifted as well). I adopted a child who ends up being - you guessed it - gifted but also has other exceptionalities. He did re-testing to qualify for special ed and we were told his IQ was thirty points lower than it was before. Sorry - I’ve done the research and did the classes - you don’t wake up one morning -ungifted. You may take off the standard deviation on points but not thirty points. Besides which the qualifying numbers are subjective anyway - read research on creativity and the IQ numbers can go substantially lower. That happened to my nephew when he moved from one to state to another - imagine being gifted and then told you’re not? Talk about damaging.

I homeschool now because - well - if you think gifted ed has its difficulties try adding other exceptionalities (ADHD Tourettes Developmental Delays) to the bag and it can be overwhelming (and misunderstood) to say the least.

One shoe does NOT fit all. Not even in gifted ed.

By Marney

November 8, 2005 10:50 AM | Link to this

My “gifted” children are getting along beautifully without pull-out enrichment or even being officially labeled and funded as gifted (they are 99 and 98th percentile on ITBS but all the other assesments haven’t been done yet). Their school walks the walk of differentiation(not just the talk). My 1st grader is given extra math sheets and helps the other kids (without telling them the answers directly.) His reading group has three other children that are also at roughly his level—but it is all done within the classroom when all the other groups meet.

My daughter’s third grade splits 5 ways for language arts with some kids going to the learning specialist, the ELL kids going to folks that help with that focus, and then the rest divide into three ability groups with each of the three regular teachers taking a third.

Science, Music, Art etc are all taught within the context of the IB unit that they are on—everyone asks questions and the material is presented in an engaging way.

My children know that they are “smart”, as do all the teachers and other children—-but they have other behaviors such as self control, caring, and keeping track of things that they need to work on. But I don’t think that their differences stand out because everyone in their school is assumed to be different.

There is one little boy whose parents had him skipped forward a grade, who I am a little worried about socially. His case is difficult because he is physically small, very “reading and math” bright, but already had a set of friendships when his overbearing parents insisted that the only way to get with his academic peers was to skip 2nd grade.

This is in a DeKalb County Public School.

By amom

November 8, 2005 11:02 AM | Link to this

It is true that some children are gifted in one area and not in another. My daughter was performing Shakespeare on state at age 8, but now at 15 still wears sandels so she can count to 20. Schools don’t do enough to recognize these differences. And where do gifted children fall in “No Child Left Behind”?

By Jake

November 8, 2005 11:32 AM | Link to this

Gifted does come in many forms, but for public school purposes it’s supposed to be a synonym for smart, not acting or inventing talent. The intelligence gifted are already underserved, it’s very unrealistic to expect public schools to be able to cater to the unique abilities and needs of every single student. Take out the politics of ‘recommendation’ and establish a baseline at 98+ percentile on ITBS or 125+ on a standardized IQ test and try and adequately address the needs of those students beginning in elementary school. Amom can develop that acting talent outside of school until its time for performing arts high school.

By Nel

November 8, 2005 11:39 AM | Link to this

To mirror Marney’s point, I have an older child who had been in Gifted since 2nd grade, and my youngest failed the “motivation” portion of the test. Both children are 99th percentile on ITBS and I had to try to downplay not making the cut to the younger child. Because the elementary school class (in Deklab County)is broken into groups within the same classroom, I know the younger one is doing just fine having not qualified for Gifted. I’ve experienced gifted education where I have not idea what the kids did, and others where it was obvious. It depends on the school’s administration as to the quality of the teacher and their particular strength whether it be LA or Math. We definitely need to bolster those children who are able to do more and not hold them back for the sake of the others in the class, which happens far too often. I say this because I’ve known teachers who have left public school because they were not allowed to teach their more advanced students in any meaningful way, but teach at a level for the less advanced students.

By Lisa

November 8, 2005 12:23 PM | Link to this

money is not allocated for programs such as the gifted program anymore.they are given to programs such as title one that continue to be connected to the no child left behind act!!!! the school system in Atlanta APS are doing this.APS no longer have special education either? basically the school system are putting all kids in the same box, and with that saying some kids are bound to fail.we as parents need to wake up but right now in Atlanta the school are only testing kids not educating kids! we can not base education off tests alone! we really need to go back to a common sense approach and parents really need to step up and demand the people who we vote in these position to tell the truth and put it out there.

By Vermin8

November 8, 2005 12:24 PM | Link to this

I am not a fan of gifted education. I think rather than “anoint” a child as gifted and give them special classes, we need to identify what subjects should be emphasized for those kids who wish to excel and go forward accordingly. In other words, put the effort into AP type courses and let the kids and their families decide to attend.
It’s been a long time since I was in school but I remember the gifted program suddenly exploding - I can’t verify this but I had images of parents marching on the school board “why isn’t my child in the gifted program” and the program being opened a little wider to appease the parents. The result was a gifted program that became a social club. I knew a young lady who had dropped out of the gifted program after they sponsored a fashion show. I think gifted is too hard to define. I’ve even read they don’t help truly gifted students since they will do what they want on their own. In fact, the aforementioned young lady (who is now middle aged - I am still in contact with her) who dropped out of gifted went on to get her degree and has told me access to the internet did more to develop her mind than any school program - she just explored on her own and learned on her own. That and the problem solving skills she developed in engineering school. And sometimes the desire to excel counts more than the results of an IQ test. We may be letting some potential Einsteins and Salks through the cracks by concentrating on a small pool of the population.

By Lisa

November 8, 2005 12:40 PM | Link to this

my son who was tested and i was inform was dyslexia could not get the proper teachers within APS school system at all.not one teacher knew the signs what to look for with writing or anything.when i went to my son teachers they just look at me like we don’t know what your talking about, one teacher said my son may have a behavior problem.we need more teachers to be educated on the diffrent styles of learning instead of always declaring kids especially boys slow! most of these young male or highly gifted i know for my son who came out drawing we have a lot of more of our son doing and going thru the same thing with learning.the school sytem in Atlanta really need to look into this.

By Sandi

November 8, 2005 12:45 PM | Link to this

I taught fourth and fifth grade in a “prestigious” private school for five years. Supposedly, this school had and “accelerated” program for everyone, but clearly, there were some kids who were much stronger than others in certain subjects, and it frustrated me to see the stronger students be bored everyday, so I researched “gifted education.” I am convinced that a practical answer to this problem is for the teachers to use contracts. It takes more work, but it is something that teachers can handle along with all the other requirements they have. Each student is given a pretest prior to beginning a unit. Those who do well and have a complete understanding of the upcoming subject are given a contract specifying what is expected and how and when mastery will be assessed. That way, students are not sitting through classes that address concepts and issues that have already mastered. I learned this process from a book: Teaching Gifted Kids in the Regular Classroom by Susan Winebrenner. It is a wonderful resource, and just about all of the information can be modified for all students, gifted or not. Once I understood the process and rolled it out, my students absolutely loved using contracts, and were much more motivated to do well, gifted or not. I wish my 11 year old son would have a teacher who uses contracts (when he was in the #1 rated school in Georgia, he qualified for the Discovery Gifted program. His opinion of the program (and mine!)totally depended on the quality of the teacher, as is just about always the case!)Teachers and administrators should read this book and take it seriously for ALL students!

By Vermin8

November 8, 2005 12:53 PM | Link to this

Sounds like a good idea, Sandi. I remember having modules in school where I could go at my own pace (does any remember SRA reading?) and that seems to be the key for those who don’t need special help from the teacher. I think the mistake is lumping “gifted” kids together - the whole point is that they are different so it defeats the purpose to come up with one size fits all instruction.

By MrLiberty

November 8, 2005 12:55 PM | Link to this

What I can’t understand is why anyone would think that a school system that fails at educating the average student would ever be able to adequately educated the gifted student.

I was blessed to be able to attend both a Montessori school and a school especially for gifted children. The education I received in both of them was light years ahead of what I have been told about the gifted programs in government schools. (Saving, doing without, and a scholarship that I earned - so don’t even let yourself off with that “rich kid” garbage. After my parents got divorced, my secretary mom with no child support payments still did what it took to make sure I had the best education).

Whether it be the bloated administration, the poor test scores/GPA’s among education majors, mandatory attendance laws, overcrowded schools, funding through theft (taxation) or any of a long list of reasons, the government schools will never be able to fully educate any child, let alone a gifted one, or one with other special needs.

There is only one “pull-out” program that parents and their kids should participate in is one that involves pulling their children out of the government schools completely. One day a week is a tease, and completely inadequate.

Homeschool them. That’s the best thing you can do - yes, even the gifted ones. Or get them into a great private school. If that means cutting back, then do it. Why did you have kids anyway if not to devote your lives to their upbringing? If it can’t be the best private school, then do as some of the parents writing here have said and supplement with after hours teaching.

The government is failing us everywhere else, there is no reason to continue to let them fail your children. To the government, school is just a way to indoctrinate them as good taxpaying citizens without independent thought who won’t rock the boat. It has nothing to do with education.

Here’s another secret - every kid could potentially be gifted if they were given the kind of educational opportunities that Maria Montessori and other Great educators have written about. Give it a try. Don’t your kids deserve the best?

By em

November 8, 2005 12:58 PM | Link to this

I appreciate Abby’s comment. For the record RF, I am both gifted certified and AP certified. MY 200 hours of course work over the period of ONE year was a mindnumbing waste of time. Sometimes more is not better, more is just more. My students would have benefitted more had I taken a real college course in the content area in which I teach.

By Agitated

November 8, 2005 01:12 PM | Link to this

I graduated from Stone Mountain High in 1996. I took the gifted test 4 times before being accepted. The first 2 times, I failed it miserably. The third time, I barely passed it and was asked to take it the fourth time.

In elementary school, I really wasn’t bothered by not being in the gifted program. Middle school was where the boredom started becoming a problem. In 7th grade, I had a history teacher whose idea of teaching history was to show us “Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure”. First issue—the title doesn’t even use correct grammar. The other issues are related to the two guys being idiots and the movie not having anything to do with history. A couple of her tests were word searches. Every week we had to write a paragraph about a current event of our choice, and plagiarism was allowed.

8th grade was my first year in the gifted program. We wrote papers. We read books. We had debates. The experience was great. Then there was 9th and 10th grade, and the class was called “Impact Social Studies”. The class was extremely difficult. In 9th grade, there was a mandatory 1,000 word research paper. In 10th, it was 2,000 words. Footnotes were required. Bibliographies were scrutenized. Speeches had to be given about our research. We had debates. We had incredibly difficult tests, mostly because so much information had been covered. We didn’t just learn what was in the book, we also had to learn everything that came out of the teacher’s mouth. It was the first class where taking notes actually mattered.

I have since become very angry with Dekalb County. My Impact teacher is no longer allowed to require the 1,000 or 2,000 word research paper as they are too difficult for current students. He cannot have debates because people on the school board believe that the debates could turn into fights in the hallways. I feel sorry for him. Impact used to be his favorite class to teach, and now it’s just like his average level classes.

Gifted programs and AP classes should remain. And they should be offered to those students who are planning on going to college and who test into them. The only way to be eligible for the AP Calculus class at SMH was to already be ahead in math: Pre-Algebra in 7th, Algebra in 8th, Geometry in 9th, Algebra II in 10th, Trigonometry in 11th. In 12th you could take either AP Calculus, Discrete Math, or not take any math at all.

I’m sorry if anyone is offended by my idea that gifted classes should be harder than regular classes and that only those who test into the classes should be allowed into them. But please remember, I was one of the children who failed that test originally. And I’m glad I wasn’t allowed in until I passed. When I got in, I knew we were a special group and that I was every bit as smart as my fellow students. Thank you SMH for your rules and for sticking by them. And Dekalb County, grow up and make the students do some work. Stop coddling kids. A 2,000 word research paper won’t kill anybody.

By Parent

November 8, 2005 02:00 PM | Link to this

I failed the gifted test before being alowed into the program through a 5th grade standardized test in which I achieved a perfect score. Now I have the educated understanding that these tests are a poor indicator of intelligence, discounting that if you fail the test, you are in some way not “gifted.”

I’m disgusted by Gwinnett County and their guniea pig of a gifted program. They used us to see how fast we could learn and how hard they could push us. By eighth grade I couldn’t even be taught by a teacher any longer. I had to teach myself Geometry, which is now taught in tenth grade, but at the time was taken largly by eleventh graders. I sat in a “gifted” classroom, in a corner and taught myself using a then current high school text book. Not to mention, at the same time, I was allowed to take independent study of topics of my choice during my other classes. The only teacher taught class I took during that time was Orchestra and any other electives I was forced to take by the corrupt school system.

Then came high school, when the school system mocked every single one of us by making us take the same classes we had previously taken and passed in middle school. What a joke!

The high school result was a group of boring, under achieving kids who were abandoned by the education system. And what did we do? Some turned into drug addicts, two committed suicide, many were pregnant or married before we graduated. Luckily a hand full of us left the wicked school system, got our GED and began our college careers from there.

(I’m not going to attempt to proof a blog so you’ll just have to excuse my errors.)

By Taxpayer

November 8, 2005 02:46 PM | Link to this

Here’s a note to all bloggers who keep advocating for private schools: I have tutored kids in my home for ten years, and nearly all have attended private schools. Most were unmotivated, lazy, underachieving discipline problems who were failing public schools. Their parents spent thousands of dollars to enroll them in the best, most well known schools in Atlanta in order to help them succeed. (And they also hired me at $30 per hour twice a week.) A private school — or any school for that matter — is really only as good as the students. You cannot make a racehorse out of a jacka** no matter how much money you spend.

By RF

November 8, 2005 02:55 PM | Link to this

em- I wasn’t intending to be critical of you. Your experience doesn’t sound good, but I know many teachers who have taken the certification course and gotten a lot out of it, and had to work very hard to finish the course. They probably had better instructors. Like most education courses, if you get a good instructor who cares, you get a lot out of the course.

By Vermin8

November 8, 2005 03:24 PM | Link to this

Is there even an official definition of gifted? When it first started in my hometown (late ’70s) it was the top 2% IQ-wise or 130+ IQ. That’s about 2 standard deviations as someone mentioned earlier. It seems like the definition has become totally subjective (although one can argue IQ is not objective). Is the objective of these programs to develop the intellectual talents of someone with an inherently high IQ? If so, there shouldn’t be exceptions and retesting. Or is it to develop potential. Everyone has potential and it often isn’t correlated with IQ.

By a hs parent of 1

November 8, 2005 05:19 PM | Link to this

Great topic! I’ve only been reading this blog only a few months, and have been patiently waiting for this subject to arise. My son is in ninth grade. He is in TAG now, takes all honors classes and Algebra II, making him two years ahead of himself in math and a year ahead in Spanish. He was not enrolled in the TAG program in elementary school until the second half of fifth grade, but was always an entire grade level ahead in every subject, and in the 97th percentile or above on the standardized tests. He attended the same school K-5.

Back in elementary school, according to the school’s placement specialist and his fourth grade teacher, he was “absolutely not TAG material”. Having only one child, and believing that these professionals knew their students, I went along with their assessment. After all, they saw my son among his peers. Naturally, my husband and I were biased, and thought our kid was “brilliant”, but we had respect for the teachers’ experience and judgment, and did not argue their decision not to test him. Plus, we were not strong believers in the TAG program in elementary school.

I’m not quite sure of the statistics, but I think it’s actually 3-5% of the population that is truly considered gifted. However, there were 30 out of approximately 100 students in the fifth grade in the TAG program when my son was in the fifth grade. Do I reside in a pocket of exceptionally smart people? I don’t think so. Do the schools get money per child enrolled in a program like TAG? I’m thinking, most definitely, but don’t know. Please enlighten me.

I think the Gifted Program in elementary school is a waste of money, and elitist. It is my opinion that, for the parents, TAG is more of a status symbol than of academic excellence in the younger grades.

I believe that there needs to be a better assessment of children who are to be enrolled in gifted programs, and thorough testing and performance evaluation is necessary. There were a few students with early birthdays…like birthdays early enough to have them enrolled in the upper grade. If TAG students are actually old enough to be in the next grade, why not put them where they should be anyway? Then they would be actually working on grade level, yes? In middle school, TAG classes were smaller than regular classes. I firmly believe that these TAG students are able to learn in any environment because they want to learn. They do not need smaller classes. They flourish in a learning environment, regardless of its size.

Back in elementary school, five days of lessons were squeezed into four so that the “TAG” students would not miss out on classroom lessons. Friday testing was restricted because the TAG students missed out on Thursday review days because they were at TAG. Really, if a child is truly gifted, a day out of the regular learning environment should not make a difference, especially if it is a review day. That’s the way it works in high school, a student attends TAG in place of class once per week.

Of those 30 children enrolled in TAG in the fifth grade, few were enrolled in all TAG classes in the sixth grade. Most were enrolled in one or two classes like LA and Social Studies, or Social Studies and Science. ONLY six students from this particular elementary school went all TAG and pre-algebra. What happened in that year? Jump ahead to high school, and kids are dropping out of the TAG program left and right. Why? They cannot afford time away from regular classes.

Honestly, if there are so many gifted children out there, then could it be that they are the norm, and the curriculum needs to be strengthened for the majority of the classes, thus setting a new standard for the truly gifted? GA is not in the top echelon of education, and I highly doubt that we have over and above the average 3-5% of gifted students.

In regards to skipping a grade when a student is performing well above grade level: bad idea. Maturity is the issue. A student may be exceptionally bright in an area such as math, but may lack the social maturity to progress with students a year or two older.

By Lee

November 14, 2005 08:18 AM | Link to this

Seems to me by reading the previous posts, the quality of Gifted education is very dependent on the individual school system.

In our school system, the quality of the Gifted program is average at best. However, the biggest advantage seems to be that the Gifted student gets placed in an above average class of students and doesn’t have to deal with the issues found in a “normal” classroom (i.e. behavior problems, discipline problems, the teacher having to proceed at the rate of the lowest level student - which is probably an illegal immigrant who can’t speak a lick of English…)

If your child is an above average student, do what we did - pull them out of public school and find a good private school who can challenge them academically. Its money well spent, IMHO.