Get Schooled

By oldteacher

November 3, 2005 02:20 PM | Link to this

We actually stopped having science and social studies fairs because many of the parents were doing the work. It became a competition between parents and not a project for the students.

By Karen

November 3, 2005 03:00 PM | Link to this

There is no way my child is developmentally ready to do this large a project without help, but by the end, we had worked on it together so much, we had both memorized the information. I think I put more effort into helping her than I ever did on my own school projects, which my parents did not help with at all. I heard from other parents that they did as much or more on their kids projects. In spite of that, I think my child learned a lot during the process that will prepare her for doing her projects alone someday.

By TiredMama

November 3, 2005 03:00 PM | Link to this

The only way the students will have a level playing field with these fairs is that all work, including research (all schools have libraries and computers), must be performed at school. Parents will only be allowed to bring or send backboards and other supplies.

But then parents would not be able e-mail pictures to friends and family of their children receiving awards for projects we stayed up all night working on.

By SWC

November 3, 2005 03:25 PM | Link to this

Very funny, Tired Mama!

I hate most projects because they are so time-consuming and don’t seem worth the effort most of the time, with the exception of Science Fair projects that my child actually enjoys and can actually do without too much adult intervention. At least Science projects make sense, because of the nature of science itself - research or experiments. But, I wish they would eliminate the ELA, math, and all the other categories where they torment us for no good reason, especially in elementary school where the kids cannot do the projects without considerable parental “involvement” and a hefty monetary contribution.

Am I the only parent who has had to deal with crying, hysterical children and similarly affected parents who are overwraught at trying to get these projects done?

At the very least, students (and their parents) should have CHOICES as to what kind of project they want to do. Too often they are heavy on the arts and crafts and light on gaining new, worthwhile knowledge. We have found this to be particularly true with reading projects. For example, can someone tell me how making a puppet of a biographical subject enhances the learning process sufficiently to warrant the excruciating effort involved? Maybe its something little girls and their teachers like to do, but boys hate?

BTW, in our middle school, “Social studies” is now “Social Science”! So I guess we could now combine “Science” and “Social Studies” Fairs into one event. Ha Ha.

By Robert

November 3, 2005 03:33 PM | Link to this

Excuse me, but why are the parents doing the child’s work? This is not an assignment for parents! And, parents that think that they are doing their child a favor are really hurting their own child’s education. That child might even get first place in the fair, might even get a 4.0 gpa; however, their parent will not be going with them to college and then the child will have no clue how to do their own work.

Parents - BACK OFF!

By Jake

November 3, 2005 04:02 PM | Link to this

I think projects are one of the best items in the curriculum. Almost every technical professional will do projects in their careers. Knowing how to do the research, obtain and organize materials,and wind up with a good presentation will be much more useful thant that history class for many of the students. But they won’t get any of the benefit if they don’t do the work. I tell mine where to find the dictionary and how to get on the internet and I usually offer a ride to the library, and money for materials.

By SWC

November 3, 2005 04:27 PM | Link to this

Why do the parents do some/much/a lot of the work? Because the projects are over the kids’ abilities (I’m refering to elementary school here).

Please do not tell me that projects trump history! That kind of thinking is another reason that American Public School education has gone down the tubes. Ignorance is bliss, but boy is my kid good at school projects. That puppet he made really advanced his education. ARGGHHHH!

By Ernest

November 3, 2005 05:20 PM | Link to this

Rubrics are provided which gives me a good understanding on what is expected, the timeline, and how the project will be graded. Teachers that provide these are golden in my eyes.

I think the project provide a great opportunity to learn ‘time management’. I spend time with my children helping them understand the process for putting together their project. I do help, primarily with typing. Unfortunately, our schools don’t provide training in keyboarding and I lack the patience to watch someone ‘hunt and peck’ their way on a paper. What grade is appropriate for kids to learn the QWERTY keyboard?

All in all, working on projects is a good experience for the family as we do work together on them. I do empathize with the children who do not receive assistance with their projects. In my eyes, they get a higher grade.

By Karen Armsby

November 4, 2005 08:16 AM | Link to this

Projects are a golden opportunity for parents and children to work together learning how to research and pull all of the parts of a project together. Ideally, parents should provide the materials and guidance, without actually doing the work. However, the reality is that a lot of parents end up doing a lot of the project, because they want it to succeed. I think teachers know when the project is the student’s work and when it is the parent’s work.

The biggest problem with a project is timing and scheduling. Kids often leave it to the last night and the whole family is stressed trying to get it done. I think projects succeed best when teachers have several deadlines the students must meet, one for research, the next for an outline, then rough draft of the written material and outline of what will be visually presented.

With the ease of computer research the teachers also need to discuss that the students’ projects must be original presentation and wholesale copying is plagiarism.

By Maria

November 4, 2005 08:18 AM | Link to this

You should have seen the Social Science Fair projects at my daugher’s elementary school! Talk about a professinal production! I expected a red carpet and photographers. Unfortunately, a couple of the most egregious offenders won prizes. However, in eighth grade, the kids had to do most of the work on their projects at school. The results were not as polished, but they were REAL and obviously kid-produced. Many of these kids went on to win places at county and state competitions.

I say eliminate these projects from elementary school. The parents will do the work so little Johnny or Susie won’t be upset by losing.Move the projects to middle school and have the kids work on them at school. Level the field and let kids compete against kids, not neurotic parents.

By high school teacher

November 4, 2005 09:32 AM | Link to this

I still get sick to my stomach when I hear the phrase “Science Project.” I hated doing them in middle school (as did my poor mother, who stayed up with me the night before they were due). I do think that we put too much pressure on elementary and middle school kids when it comes to projects.

By PTAPrez

November 4, 2005 10:07 AM | Link to this

A little off subject, but ALL projects (not just social science) get the same results at my school. My kindergartener had to do a “Family Tree” project (which I guess is social science), and after the teacher hung them on the wall - I was OUTDONE!! The writing was in cursive on most projects, the drawings and coloring was immaculate and everything was spelled correctly!! Then you get to my daughters project with cousin spelled “cuzin”, brother spelled “bruthr”, the cutting was jagged and crooked, the “apples” were purple, brown, red & green… but she did it herself! I didn’t help with glue, cutting, or coloring. I DID, however, make her use the dictionary to spell “family”.

I commented to the teacher about the professional quality of the projects. Her response? “Well, what can we do? Parents will do what they want.”

Nice, huh?

By Teresa

November 4, 2005 10:24 AM | Link to this

I despise the fall. It used to be my favorite season, even when my older children (now 31, 22, 21) were in school. Science and social studies fair projects were not mandatory. If my girls chose to do one, THEY did them. They were often for extra credit, and somehow they all managed to learn a great deal of science, even when they opted not to do a science/social studies project.

Today, my 14 year old has been REQUIRED to compete in the science and social studies fairs ever since the 6th grade. (She’s a freshman now). At first, I thought this is okay. She will learn the scientific method, how to do research, how to write a research paper, something about mold or mushrooms, and all will be right with the world. Guess what! Her teachers required them, but they did not teach them! I ended up going to the state web sites and FORCING my child for three years in a row to conform to the exacting state standards for research papers and science/social studies fair projects. Every fall I cringe when the dreaded assignments are FORCED upon her. Enough is enough. If the teachers aren’t going to teach students HOW to do research and HOW to format their papers, HOW to build an appropriate display board, then I say they have caught on to the trick that most parents are doing/will do them anyway, so why waste the teachers’ time?

I know my daughter now despises the whole science/social studies fair assignment, and guess what, so do I! She is a very bright child who has managed to learn a great deal about science, except to love it, to pursue a topic out of curiosity, not out of fear of making a bad grade.

I say it is time for the parents of the world to unite, to DEMAND that science/social studies fairs be pursued only as an optional, interest based activity. Let’s face it. How great can they be if we have to FORCE children to compete? Many teachers despise them; most students despise them. The only people who seem to love them are school and system level administrators who use the number of students who participate as some measuring stick of academic performance in their schools.

I graduated from high school in 1967, and I NEVER participated in ANY science/social studies fairs. I have a masters degree and am pretty competent in the fields of science and social studies. I am educated and successful. My three older girls are all college graduates and successful even though they were never FORCED to compete in the science/social studies fairs.

Let those who wish to pursue this line of research year after year after year do so. Let it be a self initiated, self limiting event. Praise those who do their own work, and take the parents out of the picture.

If this can’t be, then let’s REQUIRE every student to write a novella, publish it, design an appropriate cover,research the potential audience base, cost of pubication versus potential profit,etc., create a display board, and then extrapolate from this the contribution this type of education will make toward helping the student pass the high school graduation test in language arts (God forbid there should be any higher standard) or scoring higher on the SAT (After all, if it can’t be measured, it can’t possibly be of value.)

By Lynn

November 4, 2005 11:02 AM | Link to this

Teresa - You go, girl! Last year I had to help my 3rd grader make a 3d model of a volcano. This year, it was a 3D model of the solar system, followed VERY quickly by a weather instrument complete with a 2 page report. In all 3 cases, either NO information was given on what was expected, or I had to personally hunt the teacher down to get specifics. We spent at least $30-50 dollars each project, and did more than we should have, to “help” my son finish the first 2. We got smarter (and considerably more frustrated) for this past weather instrument. This time, we made him do all the research, helped a little on building (he has ADHD and poor fine motor skills) and helped with typing the report as he dictated. We got the A+ grade 2 days ago, along with the news that a new project is due….he needs to make a musical instrument that really plays. This is the 3rd project this year, and it’s only November! We don’t have a fair, it’s ongoing torture all year long. I think projects of this kind can be fun for the kids, and slightly educational (if handled correctly). But the trend seems to be one project per month. Is this normal? Or is our science teacher going overboard for 4th graders??

By RF

November 4, 2005 12:13 PM | Link to this

That’s private school for you, Lynn! :- ) Mine are in public, and we did the volcano project last year. Actually it wasn’t too bad. So far this year, it’s been Native American dwelling models. That was actually fun (a bit stressful, but fun). Now every time I mention something having to do with native Americans, my son start quoting me facts. It was worth the stress to have the time with him and see the depth of knowledge he has now as a result. I’ve learned to enjoy our projects.

By Lynn

November 4, 2005 12:25 PM | Link to this

RF - nope, this is a public school in Carroll County! That’s why I was so suprised at how many projects are being required. My son LOVES science, so at least he’s enjoying the topics, but actually geting the projects done is like pulling teeth!

By RF

November 4, 2005 12:43 PM | Link to this

Whew!! Glad I’m on the other side of town, hearing that! Most public schools don’t do that many projects these days. It is like pulling teeth, but I had to find a way to make it fun after seeing my nine year old cry while we were trying to get his volcano done last year. I decided right then and there to quit stressing out and just do our best. This year’s been much, much easier on both of us.

By Dee

November 4, 2005 12:53 PM | Link to this

I for one think that sometimes the teachers go overboard in their requirements, my THIRD grader had to do a project that required her to make a full scale menu from appetizers to entrees, desserts to drinks, create a business plan, do an interview with a restaurant employee or owner, draw a blue print floor plan of their restaurant, and then build a small scale replica of what the restaurant looks like. On top of that they then had a week to create a dish from each category and convice a panel of teachers to buy into their restaurant. The purpose the teacher said was to encourage the children to become entrepenuers and this was a social studies and math project. I thought it was a bit much for a third grader. Don’t you?

By Lynn

November 4, 2005 12:58 PM | Link to this

RF - I completely agree! Except it was me crying, not my 9 yr old. This last project was better for us, since we decided to back off and make our son do as much as possible. I’m just frustrated with the amount of projects being assigned. We already know there is another coming up about making electricity. My son has ADHD, but is in a gifted level class. We struggle just to complete his regular work, and maintain an honors average. Luckily, science is by far his favorite, so his interst is high. Another big problem is that the teacher is very disorganized. She does not hand out details of the projects, no info is sent home. I have to call and email her to get all this info. Then, maybe a week or so before the project is due, she’ll finally send home some details. Details include the bare minimum needed to get an A, B, or C. For the weather project, you had to do a handwritten report to get a C. A typed report to get a B, and a typed report plus a weather instrument model to get an A. Is it just me, or is that giving kids an easy out? Shouldn’t the assignment be what it is, and the grade determined by effort?

By Lynn

November 4, 2005 01:07 PM | Link to this

Dee - that sounds like the “mini-society” that all 3rd graders are required to do here in Carrollton. Each class votes on a name, society rules, interviews for jobs, then breaks into companies. Each company has to come up with a product, marketing ideas, budgets, and then there is a Mini-Society Fair day, where parents and all the classes get to make the rounds and buy the products. At the end, the companies split the profits (all of this is with play money), and then buy toys that were donated by parents in an auction setting that left some kids with 3 or 4 toys, while others had none. One child had been thrown out of mini-society for bad behavior, and was not allowed to participate, but had to attend. My son asked to bid on a toy for him, and was told it was not allowed. Tyler did it anyway, and gave the toy to the kid after school was over. I thought that generosity was a better lesson than the company plan had been.

By KATHLEEN

November 4, 2005 01:20 PM | Link to this

In 1984 at my school (Brockett Elementary in DeKalb) all 7th graders were REQUIRED to participate in the social science fair and YES I did all of the work myself (my mom was a single mom and held 2 jobs) and YES you could tell whose parents helped out more than others. After judging a social science fair in Fairfax, VA this past April, I was blown away not only by projects which looked something more like my friends’ doctoral dissertation projects for physics and biochemistry, but also how 1. Only 2 out of the 7 projects that I judged cited references, 2. How many of the kids took whatever the world wide web (in most cases their SOLE source of information) said as gospel, regardless of the website, and 3. Only 1 of the 7 projects was done by someone who could intelligently explain what they did. I am a firm believer that every kid needs to do a social science project at least once in their school career and that they DO THE WORK THEMSELVES! Parents will not be accompanying their child to college and the student will probably be doing some sort of research project, regardless of their major. Not to mention that kids need to learn that they will not get credit for work that they DID NOT DO! If our teacher found out that the parent did the majority of the work for the project (social science or not), the student got a grade of ZERO! If students are concerned about the cost of materials, then they need to plan their project accordingly. Be creative! You’d be surprised what materials you can obtain by simply asking. Teachers, keep up the good work (God bless y’all!) and stick to your guns on this one. No, not all students will want to participate in a social science fair, but students need to learn that in their lifetime they will be asked to do projects that they may not want to do. HOWEVER, their attitude will determine whether or not they can actually enjoy learning something.

By RF

November 4, 2005 01:58 PM | Link to this

Lynn- I think I would have cried too if that had been one of our projects! We sweated the indian dwelling enough as it was! What surprised me was how many I saw that I KNOW parents did. My son worked his backside off, and in the end his project was just as good. My seven-year-old had a smaller project to build a noun mobile. His teacher, thankfully, spelled out what she expected the kids to do and what the parents were allowed to do. Even then, I think some parents did too much. His teacher told me that she knew which ones the kids did and which ones were done by parents. She said she gave more consideration to the authentic kid-done projects. I’m glad we’re in a good school that’s not obsessed with projects!

By SWC

November 4, 2005 02:13 PM | Link to this

Teresa - double you go girl!

Lynn, we are neighbors, but I am so glad I am just over the line from Carroll County! These projects are insane. I thought that we had it bad, but in comparison to your situation, its been a walk in the park.

FYI, In Mt. Pleasant, SC where we lived for awhile, the elementary school parents had a revolt against projects and took their complaints to the principal. After the revolution, all projects had to be done at school! Vive La Revolution!

Dee - I am doubled over laughing at this project. All that’s missing is Donald Trump, or Martha Stewart from “The Apprentice”. These projects sound like really fun ideas when the teacher is in charge and the work is done in the classroom, but bring it home and it becomes high anxiety and high blood pressure. I don’t even agree with their business model - in real life the employees don’t get to vote on how a company is run.

I like to point out that while teachers have a lot of students under their wings, they do not have to teach while preparing dinner, doing the dishes and laundry, walking the dog, et cetera.

While some parents may find projects a wonderful opportunity to interact with their children, our family prefers to explore the ample opportunities that exist elsewhere!

By I_Teach

November 4, 2005 02:24 PM | Link to this

Years ago, I stopped assigning projects that had components that had to be done at home. Now, ALL of the work must be done in school. I actually had kids tell me, as they were describing their projects, “uh, I don’t know what THAT is, my Mom put it on the project when I went to bed.”

Now, my students are given daily class time, and I am able to assess how well they use their time, and help direct their learning. My students now are also learning HOW to gather/compile information, rather than plagiarizing!

By Lynn

November 4, 2005 02:42 PM | Link to this

It’s amazing to me how little direction the kids get. This science teacher told my son to “go to dogpile on the web, and you’ll find everything you need”. My son kept insisting we were wrong when we told him it was not that simple. When so little is given in the way of info and directions, I think the parents NEED to get more involved, just because the kids would have no idea how to proceed otherwise.

RF - we saw the same thing, lots of projects that could NOT have been done by the kids alone. We helped a lot with the solar system model, but I think it was more directional help. Like - “ok, now you need to measure the wires, and cut them to the correct lengths. Then measure how far apart they need to be”. We spray painted a box black, and had Tyler apply glow in the dark stars. Mostly, because it was a kit bought from Michael’s (styrofoam balls in the right sizes) and we wanted him to do a little more than that. We all painted the planets together (even my 4 yr old helped). We made Tyler do all the important work, and made the busy work a family fun thing.

I think a better plan would be to determine 3 or 4 projects for the year, give out all the info needed early, and have more planning time.

BTW - anyone have any ideas on making a musical instrument that works? My son says shoebox guitar, my husband says coffee can drum, and I say “HELP”.

By RF

November 4, 2005 02:57 PM | Link to this

Lynn- go to Michael’s or one of the hobby stores and either get a bamboo or other hollow stick, and let him and hubby drill holes for a flute. The drum would work if you can get a piece of thin rubber to stretch and attach (lots of parent involvement there). Go with what he wants to do so he’ll feel more in charge of it.

I agree that they need to choose four or so projects for the year and give our info sooner. Perhaps a call to the principal or a visit to the board meeting is in order?

By Lynn

November 4, 2005 03:06 PM | Link to this

RF - oooh! LOVE the flute idea. I’ll ask Tyler about that one. I’ve recently become MUCH more involved in the school system. I’m the parent coordinator (translation - doing it all by myself) for the yearbook, the science club mom for 4th grade, PTVO volunteer, art club volunteer, book fair volunteer, and whatever else comes up before the year is over. I’m doing all this because he has ADHD. The more involved I am, the better school experience he will have. The teachers know I’m available, the staff now knows me by first name. Half of them tell me to go get my teaching degree!

My 4 yr old enters pre-k at the elementary next year, and I’ve already been warned that the PTVO there will “eat me alive” because they have so few parents who help out. I think it’s really sad that parents will do a project for their kid to get a good grade, but won’t volunteer to ensure a good overall school experience.

By RF

November 4, 2005 03:12 PM | Link to this

Good lord, are you nuts? You’re going to have a hard time doing for both next year! My youngest is in second this year, and I have had to work really hard to divide my time equally. That and being a single full-time dad makes for limited time for either one. It irritates me how many parents won’t get involved when they have no excuse, and I stay up half the night making purple-iced cupcakes!!—LOL My youngest is beginning ADHD evaluations soon. Anything you suggest I watch for in the psych eval.?

By Lynn

November 4, 2005 03:29 PM | Link to this

Yep, I’m nuts! Part of it is that I just need to do something! I used to work in wireless telecom, extremely fast paced. Being a stay-at-home mom is worth it, but can be mind-numbing at times.

Lots of things to watch for in ADHD evals. Luckily, you sound like the kind of dad who will be very involved. Good for you. Make sure that your child needs meds before getting a prescrip. Some kids can make it with just extra attention, good teachers, and planning. Schedules are very important. If you do need meds, start very low, and try Adderall XR first (we’ve been thru every med, this works best we’ve found). Ask lots of questions, about everything they are doing, never take a doctor’s word for it. Sounds bad, but there are so many opinions that you really need to do your own research. I think I own 6 or 7 different books on ADHD, and have checked at least 2x that number out of the library. Make sure that your kid is NEVER allowed to blame a problem on being ADHD. A teaching assistant once told my son that his medicine is what made him behave, so it wasn’t his fault that he got in trouble. Boy, did Tyler run with that one for a while!

I guess my best advice is reasearch, research, research. That, and trial and error. Read everything you can get your hands on, be prepared with questions at every doc visit, focus on everything positive about your child. Tyler is in a gifted class, makes A & B’s. His handwriting looks like a 1st graders, and he hates math. His reading level is at least 7th grade. It’s all hit and miss, and consistency about everything is really important to keep ADHD kids together and successful.

By RF

November 4, 2005 03:43 PM | Link to this

Thanks for the info. I’ve been reading and reading about it. Luckily his pediatrician thinks it’s borderline, but recommended the eval based on what the teacher is saying this year. She’s an awesome teacher, but she expects a lot of sitting still and listening. His grades are good, but boy is he having a hard time paying attention and following directions without a lot of reminders and attention from the teacher. I’m learning about routines and patience! We’ve done goal charts and rewards, chore charts, and daily updates in his agenda. But you know, it just makes me love him all the more for all the extra work it takes. I can’t wait to see him every day and have to fight the urge to drive to his school and get him just so I can hug him.

By Lynn

November 4, 2005 03:50 PM | Link to this

Yep, they tug at the heart strings, don’t they? He sounds like a good kid. Work with the teacher as much as you can, because meds are no fun. Tyler’s ADHD is bad enough that he needs to be on meds. But he’s been 58 lbs for close to 4 yrs. One of the shortest in his class, it just makes his self-esteem issues so much worse. We’re taking him off the meds this summer just to make him gain some weight. I’ll really be nuts then, trying to deal!

By Lynn

November 4, 2005 03:52 PM | Link to this

RF - one more thing. If you have the time and money - get your son in any form of martial arts!! Every doc we’ve ever spoken to recommends it. Helps with discipline, focus, strength, and self-esteem. Sports in general help, but martial arts is best.

By SWC

November 4, 2005 04:12 PM | Link to this

Lynn - This could be entirely off-base, but are you certain there is nothing physically wrong with your child? One of my nephews looked and acted like a young 3 year old when he was approaching 5. It turned out that he had sleep apnea and needed to have his adenoids removed. Ever since the surgery he is starting to gain weight and mature. Just a thought - you never know, and I have personally witnessed so many mis-diagnoses by doctors…

Bless you and R.F. for your love and dedication to your children!

By Lynn

November 4, 2005 04:17 PM | Link to this

SWC - thanks for the concern. Yep, we’ve had him checked out repeatedly. It’s all because of the meds. They decrease appetite SO much. Plus, although there is no definitive research, I believe it stunts growth. It’s such a catch-22 for us, because w/out the meds, he’s completely out of control (physically & emotionally). With the meds, he’s better (still a struggle), but underdeveloped. The meds are based on amphetamines, so it revs up his metabolism, but depresses his appetite so much that he just never gains weight. This summer will be med free (for him anyway, I may need valium LOL)so hopefully he will have a big growth spurt.

By RF

November 4, 2005 04:19 PM | Link to this

I read an article not too long ago that said that increasing Omega-3 fatty acids helps with attention. I haven’t had a chance to research that one, but I’m planning to find out as much as I can about how to deal with him without the meds if possible. Thanks for the martial arts idea- I’ll definitely be checking that out. Good luck on the musical instrument.

Well, gotta run. The weekend is upon us.

By chris

November 4, 2005 04:35 PM | Link to this

I hate Social and Science Fair projects. We just don’t have the time at home to this type of project. You can buy one on E-bay. That may be a solution for us this year.

By Caprice Bolden

November 7, 2005 01:10 PM | Link to this

My child recently turned in her social studies project after much reading, research, and polling of people in the mall, she was very upset when the winner of her school’s fair bragged to everyone that she “didn’t have to do anything, because her parents did everything, all the research and the project”. So what did this teach the kid - that you don’t have to do anything - Mommy and Daddy will do it all and you can still win First Place. After all Mommy and Daddy are adults competing against 10 year olds - Now there’s a victory for you. It’s not the kids grade, it’s theirs. I hope they pass the class.

By lucky hunter

November 15, 2005 11:30 AM | Link to this

my name is lucky and I wish I had done my social studies fair project. I chose not to and I flunked out. Now, I’m a male prostitute. All because I didn’t do what I was supposed to. I have also been diagnosed with aids,genital herpes, venereal warts, and an a***** the size of a half dollar. If I had had just done the project.