Get Schooled

By RF

November 2, 2005 11:23 AM | Link to this

Absolutely, my school will go. We’re hoping to set up a field trip as soon as possible. We have poor kids here who will likely never be able to go on their own, and I think it’s a highly valuable experience. Talk about options for multi-disciplinary teaching!! Like any field trip, you have to carefully prepare, monitor, and control the kids. I’ve always had good luck on trips because I teach mine how to act before we go, and have put more than one back on the bus when necessary.

By Robert

November 2, 2005 11:26 AM | Link to this

Field trips? You mean school systems are now allowing field trips? My system basically has said no to field trips due to cost of bus fuel.

By Robert

November 2, 2005 11:28 AM | Link to this

One more thing (sorry!). As a teacher, I have many activities and labs - I teach science - that I can do with my kids. All of them are not only fun but also educational. The problem with these is the same for field trips…. I can only do them if the behavior of the students ALLOWS me to do them. Otherwise, I have to consider the student safety as priority number one.

I know that a few bad apples shouldn’t spoil it for everyone else, but they really do. I cannot use hydrocloric acid if there is even a chance that a student will throw it on another student.

By RF

November 2, 2005 11:29 AM | Link to this

It depends on the system Robert. Mine has said yes, as long as we can fully fund it in advance. They’re going to bill us for fuel ahead of time and if we can pay it up front, we’ll go. Actually, the fuel prices have come down some, so it shouldn’t be so hard to get a trip going.

By Laura

November 2, 2005 12:02 PM | Link to this

Is “aquarium life” on the state test?

By RF

November 2, 2005 12:31 PM | Link to this

Laura- your point? Biology (animal and plant life) is on the tests, history and geography (where animals are naturally located and their history—social studies), and there are lots of stories and novels in reading curricula having to do with marine life and/or the ocean, oh and all sorts of math questions and problems relating to volume and area that could be measured there are on the state tests. That’s just a quick run down that I can see.

By Laura

November 2, 2005 12:38 PM | Link to this

I live in a state that has had high stakes testing for 12+ years. Field trips are something you do in May after testing is over or not at all. If something doesn’t help kids learn how to take a test, it’s not done. Field trips, unfortunately, have suffered as a result.

Course, it turned into a cost issue in the last couple of years, too.

By RF

November 2, 2005 12:53 PM | Link to this

Cost is an issue in GA too—especially with gas as high as it is now. And I know most schools/systems do far fewer field trips than they used to. It’s a shame. I think the kids benefit sooooo much from the trips. I took a group of remedial kids to a Shakespeare performance and they were awesome!! I think the experience was more than worth it, and some of those kids would never have gone otherwise. I hate to think what would happen if we quit doing field trips altogether. What state are you in?

By Dan

November 2, 2005 01:04 PM | Link to this

Even if aquarium life isn’t on the test. Seeing both animal an plant life in a semi real environment will naturally prod kids into asking questions and learning more about the subject, kind of what learning is all about

By Laura

November 2, 2005 01:20 PM | Link to this

I’m in Texas.

By Laura

November 2, 2005 01:21 PM | Link to this

Dan - it’s not about learning. It’s about test scores.

By RF

November 2, 2005 01:27 PM | Link to this

Laura- thankfully GA hasn’t gone that far yet, but it wouldn’t surprise me. I think our parents and teachers will fight to keep field trips going. They have untold educational value, don’t they? I couldn’t imagine not being able to offer those experiences, especially to my lower level kids. They can be taught how and expected to behave respectfully. That’s part of the value of the trips.

By Laura

November 2, 2005 02:01 PM | Link to this

Oh, I love field trips. I think they are great and educational. I’m just telling you what’s become of field trips because of the emphasis on testing (and then later on due to cost). It’s too bad, really.

The daycares and private schools still go on a lot of field trips, though.

By Dan

November 2, 2005 02:13 PM | Link to this

Yes but test scores are necessary because to many kids are allowed to graduate with a piece of paper and nothing to back it up. Testing, while not perfect is currently the best way to measure if they are learning enough.

By Nel

November 2, 2005 02:24 PM | Link to this

Laura: It’s a shame to hear what’s happening in your state. Field trips canbe such an invaluable learning tool and exposes many kid to a world they might never know existed if it were left to their parents to expose them. My eldest has a trip to a Shakespeare play coming up for language arts and is very excited. Don’t the parents feel that their kids are missing out? Typically, when the parents make a huge racket the elected heads sit up and take notice.

By SET

November 2, 2005 02:55 PM | Link to this

When I was in High School on the West Coast we had an annual field trip for 2 weeks to Washing DC and New York City. One Teacher and 24 kids, 15 to 18 co-ed. This was a public school.

Of course things sometimes didn’t go as expected and we had to charter our own bus on the spot for a 3 day one-way drive from DC to NYC - things like that. We had to learn to get around in the cities on public transportation. We had to manage to meet up for dinner across town at certain times. This all happened before Cell Phones and Visa Cards (Although several kids had AMEX cards from Mommy and Daddy). We used Taxis in DC and the subway in NYC.

It’s a wonder no-one was killed or arrested.

The experience made it a lot easier to consider leaving home for colleges in far away cities. 2 weeks with no parents to “take care” of emergencies was a good thing. The one elderly teacher could handle the cops if required. The older kids took care of herding the group so nobody missed a plane or got too lost. Actually the teacher did break up (rare) fighting between warring factions over things I can’t even remember now.

In some of the cites we stopped in during the trip adult relatives of some of the kids would swoop in and take a bunch of us out to dinner or to their homes. We saw a lot of how other people lived and worked. Did the DC capitol tour thing, even the White House.

No teacher would dare run such a trip today. Too Bad. The experience meant more to us than we could possibly realize at the time.

Few families take their kids on such long city tours - both parents have to work and vacation time is used up over the entire year so one long trip is unlikely.

You should have seen our self-appointed (senior) female spokesman and negotiator dressing up to pass for 21 checking us into the hotels, assigning the rooms, and cracking the whip as needed on discipline. She’s a Superior Court Judge Now. Somebody had to keep the lid on the group of us. We put the teacher on a hotel floor by himself so he wouldn’t get in the way.

What a time…

By Angry White Boy

November 2, 2005 03:43 PM | Link to this

Now I get it. Teaching Spanish - bad use of tax dollars, field trips to aquarium - good use of tax dollars. What’s all this bleeeding heart liberal stuff about poor kids getting experiences they wouldn’t otherwise have? Teach the kids to be functioning members of society, instead of how to party on the field trip buses, and maybe, just maybe, one or two will become productive members of society that can afford to take themselves to the aquarium.

By RF

November 2, 2005 03:47 PM | Link to this

Angry— you were once a student, and I’m sure you did your share of partying and teenage rebellion. Go pop a Bud and leave us bleeding hearts to teach the kids and protect the value of educational experiences.

By Angry White Boy

November 2, 2005 04:02 PM | Link to this

RF- You and those of your ilk perpetuate the entitlement society mentality that is slowly but surely destroying the foundation this country was built on, hard work. Why don’t you try getting a real job, you could use all of next summer’s vacation to look for one, and leave the transmission of values to someone who has some values worth transmitting?

By Gary

November 2, 2005 04:41 PM | Link to this

I teach high school, but have seen the “kids run amok” field trips that elementary and middle schools take. Generally, these kids are lower socioeconomic kids who have not been properly socialized at home, and, when they get out of the classroom, overwhelm the teacher by scattering. The key to orderly field trips is 1) have volunteer parents and aides in a ratio of 1-4 tops. 2) arrange a guided presentation by docents or aquarium staff, and 3) have some sort of assignment for the kids to do, like a question sheet or series of drawings they must do. High school kids are usually OK if there is a guided presentation, for they usuually respect the authority of the guide. The teacher can remain at the back of the group to handle any misbehaviors. At any level, kids who are constant classroom aggravators should be left at school in ISS, for they have demonstrated their inability to control themselves.

By SET

November 2, 2005 04:42 PM | Link to this

Gee - lot of unhappy people working today!

The field trip that I described - as well as all the others I ever went on - were not paid for with school (public) money. The trips were announced at the beginning of the school year and the prices were listed. It was up to the students interested in going to raise the money. Some had parents or Grandparents chip in, some had part time jobs, some washed cars or had fund raisers. Some got “scholarships” from their churches or whatever.

So don’t think I’m advocating the taxpayers pay for a party. The school sent along the teacher and for all I remember it might have been vacation days for him. I don’t support “affirmative action” or government charity. Everybody went because they had planned to go for over 6 months. If anyone had gotten in trouble at school or at home we would have been dropped from the trip. Permission from parents and school principal was required for each person to be allowed to go.

Having said that we managed to keep the alcoholic teenagers indoors (in their hotel rooms) when they got drunk. That wasn’t easy. Some of them started hanging off the balcony of their hotel room and our fearless female leader had to handle hotel security about it. (Teacher was asleep in his own hotel room.) Some of these kids had never been away from their parents before. The older kids who were running the show settled them down before they got us all kicked out of the hotel.

Some of our older friends went from High School to Vietnam.

Whether students go to a museam or on city tours, field trips add something to teenagers they are not getting from the typical two-working parent or single parent household. If it is possible to make field trips possible in schools we should. At a price.

The only kids allowed to go should be the ones who have demonstrated the ability to behave in public, and have made an investment in the experience by paying for it or working for it.

The rest is between willing teachers, administrators and willing parents.

The ’60s movie “To Sir With Love” had an interesting episode about the teacher taking East End of London working-class kids on a field trip. Good illustration of accomplishing such a thing. Everybody thought it would end in a riot or something. The trip went off well and would always be remembered by the students later in life.

And some kids now are barely housebroken. It would do them good to earn their way to be let out in public.

By RF

November 2, 2005 04:54 PM | Link to this

Angry—if I leave teaching for a ‘real job’, you might have to step in and take over, what with your better values and all. You want real work—become a teacher. I doubt you’d last a week.

Also, you’ll find I happen to be fairly conservative in my views on most things. I have devoted years of my life to teaching kids with all sorts of values, including those as narrow as yours. I won’t apologize for believing they ALL deserve the opportunity to learn, and I will continue to focus on those who need the most help. Think about it—you probably had some bleeding hearts as teachers yourself, and you lived to tell about it. I don’t think anyone deserves anything they don’t work for, and regularly get jumped on this very blog for writing about the wrong of the entitlement mentality.

Instead of judging us for caring and trying to help those who need us, why don’t you become a teacher and promote your correct value system, since we’ve got it all wrong. I’m sure the public education system would be so very perfect then! BTW, I voted for Bush BOTH TIMES). How ‘bout you?

By Karen Armsby

November 3, 2005 08:05 AM | Link to this

RF, Angry sounds a lot like like another ranting poster, Mr. Liberty. You won’t get anywhere with him, so my advice is to ignore him and hopefully he’ll go away.

By oldteacher

November 3, 2005 08:17 AM | Link to this

I have been on some field trips where students were just allowed to run around. Not where I teach. We take out 5th graders to the Chattanooga Aquarium and always make sure that we have at least one adult for every 5 students. Supervision is the key. As to whether or not this is on the state test, I don’t know. We don’t teach the test. We teach to the test. That is different. I teach all the reading skills but I don’t know any specific questions. I am sure that life science is on the test somewhere.

By Angry White Boy

November 3, 2005 10:22 AM | Link to this

I went to a variety of inner city schools in the 50’s and 60’s and while there may have been a liberal or two among my teachers I don’t really know. My teachers were the children of the Depression and WWII that shared values known as honesty and hard work. They taught the material and maintained discipline when necessary, usually with parental involvement and support. Values, generally, were transmitted by parents and churches. Now academic achievement is down and manners and common courtesy are foreign concepts to many of your students. You pride yourself on teaching values and helping those who need you, while I deplore the need for public schools to act as surrogate parents. When mom won’t buy the pencils, you do. So you support and perpetutate the lack of personal responsibility. You’re enablers, teaching the kids they don’t have to be responsible either, they’ll still have worth and nothing critical will ever be said to them because self-esteem comes before everything else, including truth. Not only do you enable those values, you actively demonstrate them. When 20-30% of your students can’t make minimum standards on tests where ‘minimum’ often means as little as 40% correct, you don’t accept responsibility. Instead you blame the administrators, school boards, parents and the government’s NCLB program that requires the testing. If you want to be the Daddy and take credit for helping your charges, shouldn’t you also be a man and take responsibility for their dismal test scores?

By Dan

November 3, 2005 10:54 AM | Link to this

There is a lot of truth to Angry White Boys last post.

By Earl Z

November 3, 2005 11:00 AM | Link to this

Field trips can be great. I say take em to see the fishys.

By Manny

November 3, 2005 11:19 AM | Link to this

Angry - I will never punish a child because he/she has irresponsible parents. It is not that difficult to give a kid a pencil! After a certain age, of course you’d hope that the students would be responsible, but, at the elementary level - I will provide whatever tools they need. I don’t think that depriving them would increase test scores. My school’s population is 60% minority (Bosnian, African, Asian). So, I would take responsibility for their test scores if they were all on the same playing field to begin with. My kids come to me all times of the year (I had one enroll yesterday!) speaking all different languages. Should I “take responsibility” for that? I do the absolute best that I can with what I’m given - and that includes providing school supplies.

By RF

November 3, 2005 11:28 AM | Link to this

I don’t enable, I TEACH, and that’s different. I give a kid a pencil when he pays me for it (25 cents is the current rate). I too, deplore the fact that we have to teach the values that once were taught at home, but what do we do, ignore that? The general public outcry for values education is the reason we give it. WE don’t decide what to teach, the public-including people like you-decides. Teachers don’t choose the curriculum, we just try to teach it.

You said yourself that parents aren’t doing the job in many cases, so why shouldn’t I be able to place blame there since you do? Most people writing here have readily admitted that the parents AND teachers have to do the job. But regardless of whether a parent does his/her job, I have to try to educate the children.

Just so you know, I readily take responsibility for test scores. 85% of my kids passed the EOCT last year, with about half of those at exceptional level. Parents, administrators, AND teachers are all responsible for that, good or bad.We teachers take responsibility every day by showing up and doing the job instead of offering pompous blanket judgements. You’re entitled to your opinions, but come in and be part of the solution instead of judging those of us who are trying to do something.

Perhaps you should be the ‘man’ and become a teacher. Of course, it’s much easier to be snide and offensive than it is to actually do something about the situation.

By Nel

November 3, 2005 11:31 AM | Link to this

Way to go Manny! You will be rewarded because I’ve seen first hand how kids like those you teach outperform native- born once they get acclimated because their parents instill in them that education is their ticket to success in life. I see on Honors Day how many of these “foreign” students make Honor Roll and Principal’s List, and most of their parents barely speak English yet.

By SET

November 3, 2005 12:25 PM | Link to this

Angry has a point. Urban State schools from the word go enable and reinforce bad behavior on the part of the kids and the parents of the kids. That’s why decent people avoid sending their kids there.

One other comment on my early ’70s field trip thread. Despite whatever antics some of the students occasionally pulled, everybody knew there would be serious consequences for getting caught and embarrassing the school. Our public High School expelled a friend of mine 2 weeks before graduation when he ignored a warning not to cut class again. He got a diploma from a continuation school in the adjacent city after spending 9th through 12th grade at our school. That friend wound up in Vietnam - among others. His parents were wealthy - his father a lawyer. There was nothing they could do because the school board backed the administration to the hilt.

Despite being a public school, in the early 1970’s my school could and did crack the whip about everything from appropriate dress to public displays of affection to smoking. They made no empty threats and people were expelled once they were openly defiant no matter who they were and how long they’d been around.

Since the field trip was a school event any disturbances reported to administration would have meant immediate consequences - up to and including expulsion. So while some of us took chances we were careful.

Another thing - the girls dressed to appear older than they were. Black Dress, pearls, a little jewelery and makeup (at night). We were in Washington DC. For the 2 week trip we had a list of places to be and things we were to do. Roll was taken by the teacher. The Boys had to dress better than normal to fit in with the girls. We were able to pursuade the girls to help with some ironing and occasional wardrobe repair. They co-operated since they wanted to pick our clothes out for us anyway.

Nowadays I’d suspect the girls might want to dress as prostitutes and the boys as street criminals.

In the beginning the 24 of us didn’t even like each other and had no common bond. We were not from a single class but had “signed up” for the trip. During the 2 weeks various factions formed to argue about what restaurants to go to on free choice days and what movies, etc. We had to (basically) stay together for the most part after dinner but had some free time during daylight. Some people wouldn’t ride in Taxis with certain others.

By the end of the trip everybody got along fine and pecking orders were firmly established. There had been several sort-of emergency change of plans along the way and we felt pretty good for handling it all.

Years later I suspect our teacher deliberately stood back with the clipboard taking roll as he’d been expected to at various times during each day - but allowed us to work out most things among ourselves even with the occasional pushing and shoving in private. Never in public.

By I_Teach

November 3, 2005 12:29 PM | Link to this

Laura’s statement—way up there, about whether the information learned will be on the test…infuriated me..as an educator, parent,and someone who strives to learn continually.

So, if it is not on the test, it shouldn’t be taught?? Where is learning things for the sheer enjoyment of learning things?!?! We don’t learn about so many things around us in the curriculum, but does this mean we shouldn’t learn about art, music, and the world around us???

With attitudes like that, our children will become students with a very narrow focus and understanding! There’s so much more to learn than what is spelled out into the curriculum.

For the record: “Animal Habitats,” water cycles, ecology, and other aspects that will be covered at an aquarium visit ARE part of the curriculum. I know…I actually teach it!

By Angry White Boy

November 3, 2005 12:38 PM | Link to this

Manny - Did I forget to add blame the Supreme Court for requiring you to educate everyone that shows up? RF - Good job. I suggested you should take responsibility and require it from your students and their parents, and you’ve clearly demonstrated you are extremely responsible. I apologize for offending you. You obviously are passionate about what you do, and the results (those test scores) speak for themselves. But re-read my previous post interpreting ‘you’ as plural for all public school teachers in Georgia and perhaps you (singular)can get over the defensiveness and recognize the ‘snide, offensive’ comments are also pretty accurate. The EOCT ‘fail to meet minimum’ rate is between 20-30% depending on grade and subject. And 40% of the students you (plural) send off to college with the Hope lose it after a year. And that doesn’t even consider the astonomical dropout rate. These aren’t my ‘pompous blanket judgements’, these are verifiable facts. My pompous opinion is that overall this isn’t success. If 20% of the oputput at the Ford Taurus plant failed to meet minimum standards, they’d either close or totally re-engineer the plant! And my other pompous blanket opinion is that these students are also more selfish and ill mannered than my generation, but that may be a product of living in Atlanta and not understanding the hip-hop culture.

By RF

November 3, 2005 12:56 PM | Link to this

Okay, Angry, you admitted you were wrong, so I guess I will too. Perhaps pompous was a bit much, but at least you recognized the passion—there are more than a few teachers who need it!! We are an imperfect system, and I’ll give you the fact that many either drop-out or go to college and can’t handle it. Believe me, it’s the culture of the times that we battle with every day. It’s hard to teach kids to value education when they see so many in “popular” areas (tv, music, etc.) who have no education and are doing well monetarily. We can, and must, try to reach them. But whether they stay in school or not is their choice. The state and national averages don’t look good, but they really haven’t changed much in the last couple of decades I’ve been around the profession. There have always been those who dropped out or couldn’t make it in college. Only about half of all kids who begin freshman year of college ever make it out anyway. Can’t blame the public schools for all of that.

By Laura

November 3, 2005 01:31 PM | Link to this

I_Teach - I was just making a point. I’m on your side. I can just tell that GA is new to high stakes testing if y’all are talking about where to go on field trips.

You will find after a few years of NCLB that Nothing Matters But The Test. We’ve been doing a Texas version for a long long time. You don’t see it at first because schools think if they just teach what they normally teach then what’s on the test will be covered. It’s not. Scores are low and there’s intense pressure to get scores up.

Have I mentioned my son is in private school?

By Lynn

November 3, 2005 01:58 PM | Link to this

Back to the original topic of field trips…My husband and I recently chaperoned my 4th graders trip to the agricultural center in our town. 4 other parents also volunteered. One was left to sit with a sick child (not her own), and the others interacted ONLY with their own children. Half the class ran wild as monkeys, and whenever I tried to tone down their behavior, I was ignored, laughed at, and in one case, called a b*tch. There were at least 4 or 5 different schools there, and it was mass chaos. Teachers had no opportunity to impart lessons, since they spent all their time trying to control the kids. I think the idea of a separate, controlled environment for a field trip (like the new aquarium) is a fantastic idea. Maybe the kids will leave with some knowledge, and the parents won’t need extra strength Tylenol to deal with the aftermath!

By Lynn

November 3, 2005 02:07 PM | Link to this

By the way - my son is in a gifted level class, with a teacher considered one of the best in the school. There are a few “poor, ill-mannered, minority kids” in this class(not my label, this was said by another parent who asked why I expected them to behave better). But this was not a class that could be labeled “potential troublemakers”. I was shocked at how out of control ALL of the kids were, including my own.

By Swangirl

November 3, 2005 04:20 PM | Link to this

I write for a museum-related publication so I talk to museum professionals often. Many of them have shared with me the issues that come up involving school groups.

Bernie’s idea for a separate area just for school groups is wise, in my opinion. It sets a better stage for learning and cuts down on the distractions of simply rambling around the facility with no direction. They can ask pointed questions to real scientists and get the information first hand.

I applaude those teachers who take the time well in advance to teach their students about what behaviors will and will not be tolerated on field trips. This involves practicing those behaviors in the classroom before the trip and enforcing consequences if they don’t adhere to the rules during the trip.

As many here have already pointed out, supervision can be key on these trips. I think a little parent orientation on what to do on field trips ahead of time might be helpful so that the “I only stick to my kid” parents gets the message that being a chaperone means interacting with ALL the kids.

Aside from all that, I know you can’t always predict what’s going to happen on field trips. But as most teachers already know, a little planning can go a long way.

By Erin SMith

November 4, 2005 09:37 AM | Link to this

I know that testing is a good way to gauge if your students are learning enough… Not really… I mean honestly you do actually have some students that do not test well because they become too nervous to concentrate.

How can you test a group of people when you push them to learn for these tests and then hold them back when they crack under the pressure… Should not the teachers be just as responsible as the students?

It is not more tests that the state needs it is better teachers who actually care, with better pay. I am not a teacher myself, but through school, I did try and make friends with my teachers… but the only ones that “reached out” to me were the only ones that left a lasting impression on their studies.

These Tests that we are pushing our children into are just Bull S**t. The youth of today are our future tomorrow… why aren’t we hiring people that care about that? Rather than turning out Children that have learned something, we are turning out little princes and princesses, trained that no one can touch them, that they are better than every one.

In my opinion, schools should not allow students to drive, or parents to pick up and drop off unless the child lives out of district, the schools should supply uniforms, that teachers that are just “babysitting” should be fired, teachers should be the ones tested, not just the students. Decreased the number of tests, help those that don’t test well, and discipline… In school suspension or Out of school is stupid, students view those as holidays… As far as field trips go, I always learned a great deal from them, because sometimes, a new environment, and a new person speaking, intrigued me enough for me to pay a little closer attention.

It seems as though we are taking away the one resource that helped children learn, to focus on their testing skills, and cramming knowledge into their skulls, and has any one noticed test scores aren’t getting much better… So are field trips such a bad thing, or are all these “Standardized� tests the problem?