Get Schooled

By OldSchool

October 26, 2005 01:47 PM | Link to this

Our high school encourages students to take the SAT because so many of their parents are convinced they will be going to college. I’ve developed the habit of asking my students what their plans are after graduation. Most say “I’m going to Georgia (or Tech, Southern, etc)” but when I press on and ask what they will be majoring in, few have any clue at all. Given that most who do attend college will change their majors at least once but frequently several times, they don’t consider that HOPE will eventually run out and they may be left footing the total bill on their own. What an expensive way to “find themselves.” I’ve also seen some of our honor graduates flunk out of universities and return home to attend technical or 2 year colleges. I’m not sure if it is the academic rigor they can’t handle or the freedom. Very few students and parents lay out a realistic and sensible plan in the 9th grade that will lead to success in college. Most are just interested in high school grade point averages and SAT scores and not in laying a solid foundation for lifelong learning.

By SWC

October 26, 2005 01:58 PM | Link to this

“Very few students and parents lay out a realistic and sensible plan in the 9th grade that will lead to success in college. Most are just interested in high school grade point averages and SAT scores and not in laying a solid foundation for lifelong learning.”

Sorry to sound impertinent, but aren’t the schools responsible for anything?? All I hear is parent and kid bashing. Surely the schools (and the “school system”)bear SOME rsponsibility”?

By Dan

October 26, 2005 02:07 PM | Link to this

Old school I agree and I believe a big factor in that attitude, is that people believe the certificate, not the knowledge is the key to success. Fact is while that diploma, whether it be HS or College may get you in the door. If all you acquired was the paper, it will be evident soon enough, and that hard intelligent worker, who had trouble getiing in the door with out a degree but stuck it out, will go flying right by you.

By Nel

October 26, 2005 02:13 PM | Link to this

There seems to be a breakdown at all levels. Kudos to those teachers who still go the extra mile and I’ve been fortunate to have experienced many since my kids have been in school. One thing that I have noticed is that when you ask young children what the want to be these days, you don’t get the answers you once did. The heroes we had as kids aren’t the people kids nowadays seem to admire. It’s way too late if you wait until High School to have your kid on track for their future. If parents are surprised when the best their child can’t when they take the test is write their names, then they are the ones at fault, not the teachers. I’ve heard kids say that the get more points for just writing their names, than attempting answers they are not sure of. And they think that is a good thing.

By Leia

October 26, 2005 02:15 PM | Link to this

SWC - yes, teachers and the school system bear SOME responsibility when it ocmes to guiding the students in the right direction when it comes to their post-high school plans. But, I would hope that the strongest influence would come from the students’ parents - mine did.

Ultimately, we are not going to be responsible for paying their tuition when they lose their HOPE scholarship - their parents are.

Quite frankly, I haven’t heard any parent bashing at all. I’ve just heard the truth. Sometimes, the truth hurts.

By oldteacher

October 26, 2005 02:36 PM | Link to this

If all you hear in this vent is parent and student bashing, then you are not listening to everyone. Yes, teachers are partly to blame. We do have teachers who don’t want to teach. We also have parents who think that their children can do no wrong and students who are so lazy that they don’t want to put forth an effort and they still expect an A in the class.

Of course, we also have great teachers, parents who expect the best from their children and students who work hard to make a success out of their lives.

By OldSchool

October 26, 2005 02:41 PM | Link to this

SWC, absolutely schools bear a large portion of the responsibility, but I still think parents and students ought to sit down together and plot out a challenging but realistic course of action. One of the most difficult things my husband and I ever had to do was face up to the fact that our daughters, while gifted in instrumental music and language arts, were dismal in math. We worked with them, hired tutors, and they spent much time after school with their math teachers. Both graduated from college (Berry & MTSU) with respectable GPAs and both are successfully (and happily) employed in professions they love (PR and Recording Industry.)

We sat down with each when they were in 8th grade and plotted out a 4 year high school course of study that would build towards their eventual college majors whatever that would be. Then, we stayed in communication with the school and teachers, supporting both child and school. Neither was an honor grad but that wasn’t so important to us. A solid education was and that’s what each got.

We did our part; the girls did theirs; and all of us helped the school do its part. And it was well worth the extra effort and time.

By Jim

October 26, 2005 02:41 PM | Link to this

“They just don’t have the foundation for college work. That’s a tragedy nobody can spin.”

Why is it a tragedy that all kids don’t have the foundation for college work? Not everybody can go to college period. If you don’t work for something you don’t get it. The HOPE is a very nice financial handout for those that are prepared to work. It has nothing to do with what school you go to, or what your SAT score is. If you don’t work, you don’t get it. No spin, just the facts.

By OldSchool

October 26, 2005 02:53 PM | Link to this

“They just don’t have the foundation for college work. That’s a tragedy nobody can spin.�

Patti, I’m with Jim on this. A solid foundation in higher maths, language arts, critical thinking, problem solving, real world application, etc. is vital whether one is going to college or into the military or straight to work. How many times have we complained that some clerk couldn’t figure sales tax or make change if the power went out and he or she was at the mercy of a calculator (or HORROR! pencil and paper!)

Imagine the delight of any employer who got to hire workers who could think and read and problem solve and who could take initiative!

By Robert

October 26, 2005 03:33 PM | Link to this

To be very honest, I make a point to speak to my general level students about options other than college. This is because they are usually unaware of other options such as how to become a carpenter, a dental assistant, and so on. I also remind them that if this is their career of choice, then it is a waste of their time and money to take the SAT because they do not need it. Many of them have been misled to think that the SAT is a requirement to graduate from high school.

By oldteacher

October 26, 2005 03:43 PM | Link to this

I am certified by the state to teach career education. The year after I got my certification, the school system stopped offering it in the middle school. I do remember that according to this program, only 20% of the jobs in the market at that time required a college education. We should be encouraging student to look at alternatives to college.

By oldteacher

October 26, 2005 03:44 PM | Link to this

Does anyone know the percent of students who receive the HOPE and then drop out the first year?

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

October 26, 2005 03:46 PM | Link to this

What astonish me are people with college degrees who can’t apply what they have spent 4 years or more preparing for. I have spent less time training a $10.00 an hour temp, without a degree. They come into the workforce with more initiative and know how, for a lot less money. They have taken the initiative to learn on their own or had prior on the job training.

I see the inability to comprehend daily task with college-educated people who have been in their jobs for 2 or more years. I’m an advocate for getting a college education, but smart people should not spend their entire 4 years studying and partying. They should be getting on the job training, at least part-time while in college.

So, who’s responsible for making sure that graduating students are prepared for the workforce after college? Is it the parent, the school or the student? The school plays a large role, because they don’t provide real world opportunity. The students lack initiative and since they are adults, they should be more responsible. Would you blame the parents for this education deficit?

I take responsibility for my child, who is an elementary student, because I know that the world is a very harsh place. But, making sure that little Johnny can read, write and solve math problems is why we send children to school. Yes, the child must practice at home and complete/turn in assignments. However, I have found that our education system is very lacking and it has nothing to do with me not being an involved mom. I review my daughters textbooks, check home work, make-up test to check her skills, go to the library twice a month, attend conferences, sign agenda’s, etc….

However, when I see the information covered weekly, I am disappointed. I am disappointed with the math assignments, science and social studies. It’s a good thing, I am an involved parent, because if not – my child would not get into college with the education she is currently receiving in this state. I say this and I live in one of the better school districts.

It’s no wonder the children with less involved parents are not passing.

I didn’t have to take a prep class to pass the SAT and my daughter should not have to have a special prep class to pass the SAT when she prepares to get into college. (run on sentence)

By Patti Ghezzi

October 26, 2005 04:30 PM | Link to this

Hey all, to clarify, what I find tragic is that thousands kids pay $30, get up on a Saturday morning and labor over a test, something they would not do unless they thought they were going to college, right? Turns out, many of these kids are deluded. They don’t have the foundation for college. Many of them are not even close.

Okay, maybe tragic is too strong a word. How about “sad”?

By GC

October 26, 2005 04:53 PM | Link to this

One infuriating problem with this whole mess is the number of students and parents who are convinced that a C-D-F student taking non-college prep courses can make it into college and stay in. Somehow they have gotten the idea that anyone who wants to can get into a junior college, use it as a springboard to a big school, and not have to bother with the courses they don’t want do work hard in or take at all. They don’t want to listen to advice about fixing bad study habits, difficulty of college coursework, or realistic expectations. Even if they do manage to get into a 2-year school on probationary status and flunk out, they still can’t believe that they should have never tried to go to college in the first place without succeeding in college prep courses, much less actually taking them. It’s all somebody else’s fault.

College has gotten more difficult in Georgia, in large part because HOPE has made it so much easier to afford. Because of this, colleges have gotten choosier and expect more of the students. NO student who had not completed college prep coursework should be taking the SAT and lowering the scores just because they want to see how they will do. They need to prepare for college, not just expect to go.

By SWC

October 26, 2005 04:54 PM | Link to this

OldSchool - Now I understand what you’re getting at. I incorrectly infered that “Solid foundation” meant “curriculum”.

I was terrible at math (except Geometry) and I too had a career in the recording industry (mostly in the advertising/merchandising end of the biz)

By Ernest

October 27, 2005 08:14 AM | Link to this

Part of the issue seems to be balancing high academic expectations with the realities of many students capabilities. I’ll admit, I might have a hard time telling an eighth grader that really tries but doesn’t ‘get it’ that they may not be college material and should perhaps look at a trade. It’s possible this child could be a late bloomer or I could be 100% correct. Who helps the child that unfortunately may not have support at home? To me, this is one of the toughest recommendations a teacher/counselor can make. They could be second guessed for the rest of their life if they make an incorrect recommendation.

By Zoe

October 27, 2005 08:28 AM | Link to this

No one mentioned the fact that students receiving free lunch also get a waiver to take the SAT for free. This ups the number of students taking the SAT that have no plans of going to college. I think almost 90% of students graduating in Georgia take the SAT, but only about 50% of these students are actually going to college. Parents need to understand that not everyone gets into or goes to college. I have students on their 3rd year of 9th grade that think they are going to go to Duke. There are also the students that can’t pass Algebra I and Biology that want to be neurosurgeons. I had an advisement session with a group of 9th graders and they made a list of things they wanted to be when they “grew up.” Several of the girls wanted to be professional tennis players, yet they had never picked up a racquet in their lives. Several of the boys wanted to be professional basketball players and didn’t even play on their middle school or AAU teams. They have unrealistic goals and we, as teachers, are the bad guys if we tell the truth.

By Taxpayer

October 27, 2005 08:42 AM | Link to this

In my 22 years of teaching college freshmen, I can tell you that yes, there are many who come to college without the skills they need. However, there are more who simply don’t want to be there in the first place. Many of the students I’ve spoken with over the years tell me that their parents are forcing them to go to college even though they may have had other plans, such as vocational education or simply getting a job. I might see these students for a couple of semesters, but then they are gone. HOPE pays for these kids who shouldn’t have been there in the first place. And whatever happened to giving scholarships to students who achieved excellent grades? Students can get HOPE with just a B average, but if we required the students to have an A average AND a decent SAT grade in order to obtain the HOPE scholarship, we would perhaps be putting our money into students who will actually finish what they start.

By Taxpayer

October 27, 2005 08:44 AM | Link to this

And AMEN to GC! I agree with ALL your comments.

By Kym

October 27, 2005 09:14 AM | Link to this

Zoe- It is not the teachers fault, it starts at home. Everyone thinks their precious darling is wonderful, smart and going to be the next rising star at Harvard, Brown, and Yale. When in reality their kid is more in line with Demark Tech. I wish some other parents would wake up and really look at their kids, learn what your child is capable of. Taxpayer is right many college freshman are forced into college by parents, and for the athletes coaches of football and basketball teams who think they have the next NBA or NFL superstar. Unrealistic expectations. Stop blaming teachers for your kids problems. If he is a C-D-F student today he will be C-D-F tomorrow.

By Mrs. Blasingame

October 27, 2005 10:02 AM | Link to this

Does GA have a program called “Project Discovery”? I was visiting my sister in VA this week and the local high school has a College Prep program that assist students with visiting (4) different colleges. There is a packet for the student/parent arround the students expectations of college.

I thought this was a great program and wondered if GA offers this to its high school students? This is something to look into if not offered.

CB

By Martha

October 27, 2005 10:45 AM | Link to this

The kids that are not prepared are the kids who do not take advantage of what is offered to them. Teachers can do all they can, BUT…if the kids fail, the parents are all over the teachers, insisting the work is too hard—WHAT?? it is a college prep class!! Not every child is college material. Unfortunately, our society has been spoiled into thinking anybody can do anything they want. Nope! Nada. Without the smarts, the kid needs to plan on tech school, 2 year college, or some other post-high school plans.

By Lee

October 27, 2005 11:12 AM | Link to this

The biggest problem with HOPE is that it is a “pay up front” system. I may be mistaken, but I think that the first evaluation point for HOPE is at 30 semester hours. This means that a student can go to college for a couple of semesters irregardless of their grades. After they lose HOPE, they drop out of college and go to work. In the end, the HOPE program spent a lot of money on a student who probably shouldn’t have been in college in the first place.

A better alternative, I think, is to make HOPE a reimbursement program. This means that the student pays tuition up front and then is reimbursed by HOPE when the grades come in. While we’re at it, let’s make it a progressive reimbursement (100% for an A, 90% for a B, 80% for a C). This would encourage the student to put forth the extra effort to make a better grade.

“What about those poor students who can’t afford the tuition up front?” you ask. There are enough financial aid programs out there that will provide the funds for these students. It may require them to get a student loan. Then, if they flunk out after a year, they would be responsible for paying it back.

Hey, college is tough. College requires a commitment. Let’s put some of the responsibility of paying for college back on the student and eliminate the “I believe I’ll try college for a while and see how it works out” student from squandering HOPE.

By Lillium

October 27, 2005 11:30 AM | Link to this

In the process of reading, “Ready Or Not,Here Life Comes” by Levine. Excellent book - should be required reading for parents, teachers, and guidance counselors. We in the process of trying to help our niece who is a couple of years out of high school and floundering through life choices. Our son will be out of high school in a couple of years. I’m thankful that I live in a state that offers the assistance of HOPE - but - college isn’t for everyone. Why should it be? The SAT isn’t for everyone either. The SAT shouldn’t be used to compare state educational systems - comparing apples and oranges again. I would like to see high schools incorporate more information about different jobs and employment opportunities. Many students are graduating from high school unprepared for higher education - worst yet - too many are unprepared for the responsiblities of life in general.

By OldSchool

October 27, 2005 11:35 AM | Link to this

Mrs. Blasingame, why should Georgia fund a program to let students visit colleges? This is something the student can do on his/her own. Most schools will give them an excused absence for a legitimate visit.

We spent 2 summer vacations taking each of our daughters to visit colleges (Appalachian State, Berry, Tusculum, Young Harris, MTSU) before their senior years. They set the itinerary, contacted the schools, and off we went. They already knew Southern (my alma mater, Southwestern (dad’s alma mater), and Valdosta State (from my teaching GHP).

Many colleges offer overnight stays and classroom visits. It is up to the parents, though, to provide for these opportunities, not the state.

By TechMom

October 27, 2005 11:41 AM | Link to this

My son is in his first semester at Tech.

I have done post-graduate studies, and my husband has a PhD in engineering.

One thing that we stressed to our son is that college is far, far different from high school, no matter what college-prep/honors/AP classes were taken.

Did he believe us? No. Did he get his butt kicked on his first Calculus test? You bet. But he learned from that initial mistake, and has had stellar grades since.

IMO, “preparing” for college means much more than just taking college preparatory courses. Parents need to make sure that their high school graduate has the skills and/or resources to be successful, not just the SAT score it took to get in.

By TC

October 27, 2005 11:59 AM | Link to this

Good for you TechMom!!! Where did your son atted elementary thru high school? Where did you and your husband get your start?? I love to hear all the success stories, but people never tell you how they got there. It’s like hearing people tell you “you too can be a millionaire like me”, but the don’t tell you what steps they took to get there.

By Linda Peck Thonnesen

October 27, 2005 12:05 PM | Link to this

First - if parents taught kids to read before they start school, a LOT of the problems in school might be avoided. Once a kid can read, and isn’t allowed to park in front of the TV for hours, his/her world expands and curiousity grows, hunger for more knowledge just seems to occur.

Second - if teachers COULD/would stop being babysitters and concentrate on teaching fundamentals in early years, then we might find students in middle and high school KNOW more and are willing to LEARN more. I don’t entirely blame the teachers (maybe 20%) because the system forces them to NOT individualize, NOT focus on academics, but instead just “BE” there so the kids have a place off the streets and out of the weather. Sad.

Third - Money itself is not the answer, but more money available to allow teachers to teach individuals instead of clumps of students would greatly enable the learning capacities of many students. If a fairly quick study in, say, Social Studies, or English (oops, excuse me, language arts) is clumped with someone who struggles to understand basic words and concepts, he/she quickly is bored, frequently in trouble for BEING bored, and not given the opportunity to do independent studies that would allow them to continue to grow and learn, without being held back by others who are not ready for that level of work. It applies in ALL subjects/categories, but teachers are forced to work to the lowest common denominator… a sad sad commentary on education.

Fourth - I agree that perhaps HOPE is wasted on some who will never, and never intended to, complete college. However, from personal experience with my son, if the HOPE had not been there as an up front payment, he’d still be spinning pizzas and might have lost all interest in going to college simply because we could not afford it — and the saddest part about THAT is, our financial “need” was based upon what i made the previous year, and i was laid off on January 3 … so his “available” grants/scholarship/loan/etc funds were severely limited. SOME kids DO need the “hand up” … maybe a better solution is that if you DON’T remain eligible for the HOPE, the state CAN choose to request partial reimbursement if you drop out of college…perhaps recoup some of the money THAT way instead of penalizing poor folk who WANT to better themselves?

Long-winded, I know, but this is an important — and frustrating — topic.

lots of good thoughts, lots of good points, but the blame game needs to stop and the constructive efforts to improve what we have need to be emphasized.

peace!

By TC

October 27, 2005 12:09 PM | Link to this

Linda Peck Thonnesen… Very long winded…..so what are YOU doing to implement change??? I also love people who have a bunch of suggestions, but havn’t been an active force in change themselves.

By SWC

October 27, 2005 12:29 PM | Link to this

“No one mentioned the fact that students receiving free lunch also get a waiver to take the SAT for free”

Zoe - This and the rest of your post just shows what happens when you have an entitlement mentality. Everything is free! Our self-esteem is high! We are special! We deserve it!

How much do we pay for these free lunches, literally and figuratively? If your “parents” can’t manage to put together a P.B.&J sandwhich without government help, you are going to depend on the government for everything, and assume that you are entitled to a career in anything you want, or to the college of your choice, or whatever fantasy has been indulged.

Get rid of “free lunch” and put that money into education, especially into restoring art, music, language, and other second tier curricula that were dropped from our schools.

By SWC

October 27, 2005 12:37 PM | Link to this

T.C. - How arrogant can you get? Linda Peck’s comments were perfectly reasonable. How do you know whether she was “an instrument of change”? (not that that should be the criteria for anything anyway). We’ve had far too much change over the 4 past decades, and that’s the crux of problem IMHO!

By TC

October 27, 2005 12:38 PM | Link to this

Zoe… Just curious, and be honest because no one knows anyone……what is your profession?

By HSTeach

October 27, 2005 12:46 PM | Link to this

ummmm…. A “B” average in Georgia is the equivalent of a “C” average or lower in other, higher-performing, states (Virginia, Kentucky, Mass, Conn, etc…) Period. Georgia has gotten complacent about education and they honestly think that by taking millions of practice tests we’ll all get edukatd in kallige… riiiiiight…….

By TC

October 27, 2005 12:49 PM | Link to this

Arrogant, blunt, audacious, cavalier, pompous,…or any of the other adjectives you want to use, I still want to know the answer. It makes a big difference, and if we get a honest response, I’ll tell you why I asked.

By oldteacher

October 27, 2005 12:54 PM | Link to this

Doesn’t the HOPE also pay for technical school?

By Lee

October 27, 2005 12:57 PM | Link to this

Linda Peck Thonnesen - good point on financial aid being based on previous year’s income. Even so, I would still say there are enough financial aid programs and student loans out there so that anyone could go to college if they so desire.

TechMom - we had a similar experience with our daughter at UGA. We’re talking about a student who made straight A’s in grades 1-12, took every A/P class offered, graduated fourth in her class, and then made a 60 on her very first Chemistry test in college. She too recovered from that initial “eye-opener” and is doing very well. Later, she told me that (1) she had to learn how to study and (2) only one class in High School (A/P English) was applicable to college work.

By oldteacher

October 27, 2005 12:59 PM | Link to this

There are some kids who need to be on free lunch. Before we had a breakfast program, I would have students crying on Monday by lunch time because they had had almost nothing to eat over the weekend. It is not the fault of the child if they have worthless parents. If we didn’t have this program, our test scores might even be lower.

Yes, there are many students who shouldn’t be on free lunch, but then again their parents shouldn’t be collecting checks from the government.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

October 27, 2005 01:07 PM | Link to this

What kind of nut, would get rid of free lunch? Lunch is probabaly the only real meal some kids receive all day.

If your parent works for minimum wage, you can’t expect them to be able to pay for lunch.

Some of you have no concept of living from pay check to pay check. You would probably be okay if the child were homeless.

I could care less about the adults in the household, but I care very much about the children. I know many of you will respond with, the famous, but boring phrase “Don’t have children”. However, once the child is in the world, someone has to make sure that child gets at least one meal a day.

By TC

October 27, 2005 01:13 PM | Link to this

Independant Woman… A nut who believes that all the tax breaks the rich are getting is fair and just to people who make less than 100K per year.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

October 27, 2005 01:14 PM | Link to this

Worthless parents??? Worthless parents??

Just because you are poor, does not make you worthless. Have you ever considered that Jesus feed many people, but he did not consider any of them worthless. He acknowledged beggers on the street as if they were Kings and Queens.

I’ll say it one more time: I treasure my trash collects, lawn providers, store clerks/cashiers, etc.. because they are doing the jobs that I do not care to do. Just because they occupy those jobs, do not make them less of a person or less of a parent than me.

By Linda Peck Thonnesen

October 27, 2005 01:20 PM | Link to this

What have i done to effect a change, you ask? First, we taught our kids to read, not by force, but by making it fun and intersting, as soon as they showed an interest in what WE were doing (holding a book, reading from it, discussing ideas beyond what is for dinner and “how was your day dear”); second, as our children came through the school system, we did not allow the school to dictate entirely what our children learned…. we taught them too, compared notes on what they heard in school with what they heard in our place of worship, in our home, on the news, in the paper, from their friends; third, we involved ourselves with the school system as much as possible. Have things changed? no, unfortunately not much. But we did what we COULD, and the most important thing we have done is make sure that all three of our children have the ability to determine what they want to achieve, and to MAKE THE CHOICE whether, when, and how, to achieve those goals. Am I always happy with their choices? Nope, am not. But a AM happy that they stand on their own feet, take responsiblity [a KEY word in our home] for their choices without whining and blaming mom, dad, school, government, teachers, neighbors, etc etc ad nauseum, when things might not work out quite as well as they’d hoped…and… and too, they remember to thank and show gratitude, respect and appreciation for any helping hands along the way.

I cannot change the world, TC, but I can be proud that I have three sons who are caring, intelligent, educated (each in his own way), responsible [to self and others] and loving. Not perfect, there have been lumps… but overall, a pretty danged good average these days.

By Linda Peck Thonnesen

October 27, 2005 01:22 PM | Link to this

P.S. Linda bows to TC, tipping her imaginary hat… and now, kind Sir (it is Sir, isn’t it?) your point?

peace

By oldteacher

October 27, 2005 01:30 PM | Link to this

And worthless parents are not always poor.

By RF

October 27, 2005 01:36 PM | Link to this

Linda- GOOD answer!!! As a teacher, I wish there were more parents out there that do what you have done. There are many, but unfortunately the children of the few who don’t care take up WAY too much of a teacher’s time and resources. They’re all worth it, but it does get tiring trying to teach a kid how to read when he never sees anyone at home doing it. Thanks for being a good parent, and for making teaching a little bit better for all of us!

By Linda Peck Thonnesen

October 27, 2005 01:37 PM | Link to this

techmom, you are so right…preparation is NOT just academia, it’s LIFE! cushioning our children from life’s bumps, always fixing their boo-boos…won’t teach them how to survive, in school or out!
giving them a foundation that allows them to grown in whatever direction they choose… that’s preparation for life, imho.

By Linda Peck Thonnesen

October 27, 2005 01:42 PM | Link to this

RF - i know… one thing we found was that teachers who would individualize their students…allow those who had the skill to tutor those who wanted to learn, for example, whether it’s reading, math, or band… helped OUR kids appreciate that others did not grow up the same way, taught compassion, patience (in teaching others), and sometimes frustration… but most of all, i think, it helped to keep them from becoming bored in class and getting into mischief or worse…i wish more teachers would utilize the tools [the students lucky to have already learned, for whatever reason] they have, because it’s more than facilities, more than money, more than supplies… its INTEREST in the child that helps more than anything… how rewarding for a child not only to be praised for his knowledge instead of being ignored because he DOESN’T need help, but also to be able to help someone ELSE who needs help to learn and grow?

double good whammy, imho!

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

October 27, 2005 01:55 PM | Link to this

Worthless Parents was used in context with free lunch, which most people associate with being poor or receiving government assistance. But, you are correct, there are middle class and millionaires who are also worthless parents.

I believe that the biggest problem most of you have with our education system, is that you believe that someone else is getting something for free that you believe you are paying for. (i.e. wasting tax payers money.)

But, you are ready to use tax payers money to fund more prisons.

I say, if you are going to waste my money(you see, I pay taxes also) - please waste it on education.

Those kids you fail to educate today will continue to need government assistance for their kids.

But, I know that many of you would rather wipe out all government programs as well. You think crime is low at this point, just wait and see what happens 20 - 50 years from now. You have stopped all government assistance programs and you have a state/country full of uneducated people in low paying jobs.

I see a very ugly picture and a gated community will not protect you.

By oldteacher

October 27, 2005 02:08 PM | Link to this

You are right. I did use the phrase worthless parents in the same sentence as free lunch. I was thinking about two kids in particular who parents always reeked of booze when they came to the school to complain about something that their child didn’t get. Worthless has nothing to do with income.

By Linda Peck Thonnesen

October 27, 2005 02:09 PM | Link to this

if this were not an education blog, i’d go off on the difference between free lunch for kids and welfare and government “gimme” programs that encourage NO attempt to improve, and make suggestions that WOULD work, if only the government wasn’t afraid of offending UNIONS by training and hiring people to work in their communities…..shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hush, this isn’t the place for that argument…

but free lunches for kids…. sure… in fact, maybe ALL kids regardless of their parents’ income, should be allowed to eat… except…let them talk, chat, visit, compare notes, instead of the militaristic quiet [rigidly enforced in many schools] lunch hour i see so often now…

but then, if they allowed interaction, the administration might have to actually intervene in an argument or something and heaven FORBID kids should be taught how to productively disagree and interact regarding differences, just shut them up so no one has to hear it…until they leave school so full of anger and angst that they explode and we ALL pay the price!

By Leia

October 27, 2005 02:13 PM | Link to this

My success stories are the students who come back to visit me from U.Ga. or Tech or Emory and actually thank me for being so “strict” with them as far as note-taking and developing good study skills.

Of course, they probably hated me while they were in my class, but, when they get exempted from taking Introductory Computer Science courses at Tech as a result of taking A.P. Computer Science with me - I feel vindicated!

By oldteacher

October 27, 2005 02:25 PM | Link to this

Our students are not only allowed to talk at lunch (talk, not shout) but they have a break after.

By John McGaughey

October 27, 2005 02:25 PM | Link to this

I am 47 years old and decided to attend a local state Technical College in Athens,Georgia to finish an associates degree. Because I graduated from high school so long ago I had to earn the HOPE by getting a 3.0 average for the first 45 hours of work. I can tell you that it was tough but I got a 4.0 after 45 hours. Just an idea but maybe this is the way it should be. A real life lesson I learned outside of school was when you had to work for something you were less likely to lose it. Everyday at school I see alot of very depressed and unmotivated young people who really dont want to be there. I believe most are under parental pressure and I’ve noticed most dont stay. Lets see the work first and then reward it.

By GC

October 27, 2005 02:29 PM | Link to this

In 30+ years of teaching, I’ve come across more worthless parents who were affluent than who were poor. Poor parents can be determined to discipline their kids and make them appreciate the boost in life that an education can give. They can be determined to see their children break the cycle of poverty and have a successful life. I have the utmost respect this type of parent.

I have seen far too many parents with money who spoil their kids rotten and try to keep them from having to learn from the consequences of their actions. They raise cain with teachers who give their children bad grades that they actually deserve. When their kids get in trouble at school, they do their dead level best to shift the blame to someone else. When their kids turn 16, they give them a hot new car that costs more than some of their classmates’ houses. They never have to stand on their own and expect mommy and daddy to rescue them.

Rich or poor, I’m glad for parents who raise their children to take responsibility, to learn life’s lessons realistically, and to learn from their failures. Parents who coddle and shelter their children are doing them no favors; they’re setting them up to be rescued their entire lives and to make them a pain in the butt to everyone around them. Money is not the object of parenting. Making your children smart and mature is, and you can do that no matter what your economic status.

By Zoe

October 27, 2005 02:29 PM | Link to this

I teach 9th grade. I have honors, gifted and AP students. Most of my students will go to college and are working towards that goal. I did however, teach at-risk 9th graders for 2 years, collab (special ed and regular students in one class/two teachers) for a year and plain-old comprehensive for a couple years too. I finally became so frustrated with the students I had and being blamed for a failure rate I couldn’t control, I figured out a way to teach the students that wanted to learn. The students I have are WONDERFUL, but I am not naive enough to think that all students are like the ones I am lucky enough to teach everyday. As long as we tout college as being the only goal for our students, they will continue to take the SAT even though they have no intention of going to college. Most take the SAT thinking they will go to college, do a couple applications, get a reality check and wind up at a minimum wage job trying to figure out the next step. I know not everyone is ready for college right after graduation, so please do not tell me individual stories of “how I succeeded even though I screwed up in high school.” Good for your for overcoming a stereotype. Unfortunately, those stories are few and far between.

By Linda Peck Thonnesen

October 27, 2005 02:33 PM | Link to this

old teacher … your students are lucky! and the break is nothing short of genius!

but i have heard stories about kids being put into IS or Detention or even sent home because they would not “behave” at lunch, only to find out the behavior was TALKING out loud! [as opposed to talking loudly]. My son had to get permission to take a book to read to lunch, because he is by nature a “talker”…chatty fellow… and that was our solution to the so-called problem…

but i felt that he missed out on a lot of the interaction that i remember lunch hour [yes, i said HOUR…not 22 minutes!] being all about in school…

By Linda Peck Thonnesen

October 27, 2005 02:40 PM | Link to this

Zoe good for you, because the gifted/AP etc students also need someone who understands THEIR particular needs and issues in school! i have one who did all available AP classes, one who did some, and one who just could care less, at least for a while… so I saw three different levels of programs in the school system

just a thought… why do we as parents and teachers and government people think everyone SHOULD go right on off to college after high school? did WE know what we wanted at 18? and to those, no offense, who said they sit their kids down in EIGHTH grade and map out the future…what did YOU want to be at the age of 13… did you still hold that to be the goal at 18? how about at 25? 40? Why not encourage kids to work for a year or two, or donate time/work for a civic entity or a military entity … or if lucky enough to afford it, travel … see a little bit of reality and THEN take time to set goals and more maturely meet them? or handle NOT meeting them? The prevailing mentality is college right after high school, REGARDLESS of interest… and i think that’s why so many fail/drop out of college so quickly… just one gal’s opinion of course…

PS … TC??? still waiting! grin

By Linda Peck Thonnesen

October 27, 2005 02:53 PM | Link to this

hmmm TC must be limited to lunch hour use of the computer; so am i usually, so no condemnation there …but TC DID say we’d get an answer if i gave an “honest answer” … i’ll check back tomorrow!

gettin’ out to enjoy the rest of the autumn afternoon!

By SWC

October 27, 2005 02:54 PM | Link to this

“Some of you have no concept of living from pay check to pay check”

Actually, for a number of years I earned twice the minimum wage but after having 40% of my paycheck deducted to pay taxes I was left with just about the minimum wage. I too lived paycheck to paycheck thanks to the govt. redistributing my so-called “wealth”, which (before taxes)was fAR less than the average NYC welfare recepient’s benefits.

I have a tremendous amount of compassion for children, but I would bet you that most of them could muster up food for their kids. Here’s a provacative idea: Those who truly have no food to eat, like the poor kids who come to school without having eaten all weekend, might be served by the same food banks/charities/churches that feed ADULTS everyday.

Aren’t the schools encouraged to sign up as many free lunch kids as possible because their Federal funding dollars depend on a formula tied to free/reduced lunch?

And surely our motivation to feed hungry children should be because they are hungry, not because it would cause our test scores would go down.

By RF

October 27, 2005 02:54 PM | Link to this

Zoe— don’t misjudge the remedial kids too quickly. The kids at your level need good teachers, but I find the remedial kids much, much more rewarding. Their successes may be few, and they can drive you to drink, but when they learn something, they are the proudest kids in the world. Sure, their parents are often worthless, and the kids themselves basically out of control sometimes, but there are a lot of days when they “get it”, and I truly think some of them will end up in college one day. They are just as intelligent and deserving, but don’t show their intelligence the same way the AP kids do. They need your skill and knowledge as much as, or more than, the AP kids. We’re at a point where we have to get teachers to stay with our remedial kids and help them. I’ve been doing it for most of my 15+ years, and it’s been worth it. Tough, frustrating, and some days irritating, but definitely worth it.

By SWC

October 27, 2005 03:06 PM | Link to this

“but i have heard stories about kids being put into IS or Detention or even sent home because they would not “behaveâ€? at lunch, only to find out the behavior was TALKING out loud! [as opposed to talking loudly]. My son had to get permission to take a book to read to lunch, because he is by nature a “talkerâ€?…chatty fellow… and that was our solution to the so-called problem…

but i felt that he missed out on a lot of the interaction that i remember lunch hour [yes, i said HOUR…not 22 minutes!] being all about in school… “

BINGO! How did we ever manage to get an education in the oldendays when kids were allowed to be kids?!

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

October 27, 2005 03:16 PM | Link to this

Since the formula is tied to free/reduced lunch, you should be asking the school systems to verify the information they are getting from the parents.

It cost a lot to live in NYC, would you suggest they force those people to move to a less expensive city? Just so that their government assistance is close to what you bring home in GA.

You obvious didn’t have children at the time, because if you only brought home minimum wage after taxes, you would know that it is hard to muster up lunch money for kids and meet the expected household bills.

I have what is considered an excellent career and income. However, after saving for retirement, paying taxes, healthcare, mortgage, car payments, groceries, insurance, household expenses,etc…. I too sometimes have to rebudget to make sure that childcare,lunch and other school cost are covered each week. My child pays full price for lunch.

I use coupons and always buy products that are on sale.

I can’t imagine living off of $25,000 a year.

By Karen Armsby

October 27, 2005 03:19 PM | Link to this

Wasn’t the original intention of the HOPE to attract the best and brightest Georgia high school graduates to attend Georgia colleges, and not go out of state? And that has worked. But an unpleasant side effect has been the feeling of entitlement that kids have now that all should be able to go to college regardless of grades, test scores ability or interest.

If it’s not PC to tell students that they shouldn’t go to college because of poor grades and test scores, how about counselors tell them their best options, and rank the options in order of their likelihood for success? I think it’s wrong to hide the truth from the students who don’t score well on the PSAT or SAT, and have a middling “C” or grade inflated “B” average from one of the high schools that seek an aura of success by proclaiming that they have a high percentage of students going off to college.

The trouble is, the lower performing SAT testers who have grade inflated averages will not do well at college. They end up taking remedial English and math, because they aren’t ready for college level courses. Could that be the reason there are so many students taking 5 years in college instead of four? Or why there are so many dropping out?

The colleges and universities have a great interest in retention of students, because education is very expensive. And they rely on good graduation statistics for their reputation and standing among peer colleges and universities. They are not fooled by the high school grade inflation. They have a formula and index for every high school that assigns the applicant a weighted score, because the colleges know that students from certain school systems and individual schools do very well and students from other systems don’t perform as well in college.

I know the argument has been made that HOPE has driven schools to grade inflation. These schools have done a disservice to their students in inflating their hopes for success in college.

A better indicator of success of our public school systems would be the statistics compiled from all of the state colleges and universities showing the number of remedial classes offered, the retention rates after freshman and sophomore years, the graduation rates, and the numbers and percentages of students from each high school or school system that succeed and fail in the state university system.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

October 27, 2005 03:24 PM | Link to this

Not all colleges have the same standards. Some college place students in remedials and another school would not place the student in a remedial class. The statistics would be way off.

Example: you might be in remedial at Emory and not in a remedial at UGA. The exact same student with the exact same test scores from highschool.

By SWC

October 27, 2005 03:40 PM | Link to this

Amazed - I actually did leave NYC when my son was born because it was too expensive. AND, by the time I left NYC my income AFTER taxes WAS about $25,000 a year in large part because I had to support all those on public assistance, most of whom were unmarried teenagers destined to have children that we are still paying for.

So, I weary of the “tax cuts for the rich” arguments. Its taken us YEARS of struggling to get into the so-called “rich” category and I thank President Bush that we actually get to keep some of what we make these days so we can provide for our own child and not someone elses’ for a change.

Sorry, this is very off topic!

By Robert

October 27, 2005 03:57 PM | Link to this

SWC, Your rantings and ravings are ridiculous and very much WRONG!!!! The actual percentage of federal income taxes that goes to support anyone on assistance is actually less that 1%. Much much more goes to the military, to foreign countries, and to support the interests of the republican “buddies” that are super wealthy (trust me, you are certainly not one of those).

It really makes me angry when idiots spew republican rhetoric that is COMPLETELY WRONG!

By RF

October 27, 2005 04:08 PM | Link to this

I don’t care what the percentage is, I’m just glad Bush is letting me keep some of it for myself and my sons. I’d have a hard time maintaining a barely middle-class existence without it. I’m tired of going to the store and waiting in line to pay for store brands while the person with the EBT card buys the name-brand at twice the price!

By Dan

October 27, 2005 04:16 PM | Link to this

Robert you need to look at facts, because YOU are completely wrong. Now if you are alluding to education funding About 4% of federal education dollars goes to food services, this info comes from the department of education.
If you are alluding to any assistance, you have clearly imbibed the kool aid of ignorance, dems rely on the ignorance of their voters, which is why their supporters run away with every new degree (except doctorates, where the academic idealouges dwell) I don’t have the research handy but assistance less than 1%??? I suspect medicaid alone would exceed 1%

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

October 27, 2005 04:20 PM | Link to this

Robert,

SWC doesn’t have a clue, about where her money is actually being wasted. I will asked her to think about space, the next time she plans a family vacation.

I believe that we should study and even plan a few visits to space, but we have wasted trillions of dollars in less humanitarian efforts.

SWC, When you think about wasting money, think about the CEO who is being sued by I think it is American Express for failure to pay about $210,000 for one night at a strip club.

Now that is justification for anger and mismanagement of funds, because I’m sure he has more than a six figure income. But, I’m sure he just wanted to entertain a few clients. It’s not a government business, but it was definitely a waste of money.

Think about the Enron and MIC/World Coms and Haliburton (steals from you daily). But you are okay with taking care of the rich.

By Dan

October 27, 2005 04:22 PM | Link to this

For the record, income tax payments break down as follows; the top 1 percent � the taxpayers with an adjusted gross income (AGI) over $295,495 � paid, for 2003, 34.27 percent of federal income tax revenues. The top 10 percent (with an AGI over $94,891) paid 65.84 percent, the top half (AGI over $29,019) paid 96.54 percent. The bottom half? They paid 3.46 percent. So unless you can make a reasonable argument that the top half pay everything for the bottom half(that would be communism and we all saw how well that worked) it is simply foolish to rant about tax breaks for the rich.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

October 27, 2005 04:27 PM | Link to this

Dan,

Even if it’s 5%, it is still a drop in the bucket for the other criminals that steal your tax dollars daily. But you will support your tax dollars being spent on your cause, as long as it doesn’t go into some women with a child/childrens pocket or refrigerator.

What SWC and yourself get back with the tax cuts is so very small, unless you are Theresa Heinz-Kerry and she’s really wealthy.

Why do we have rich liberals who do not support the tax cuts?

By lynn d

October 27, 2005 04:31 PM | Link to this

I hate to be harsh, but once upon a time, in the not so distant past, even C students could get into UGA. For those of us who were around back then, we are amazed at the transformation of the admissions process which is largely due to HOPE but also due to the exploding number of students looking for seats at 4 year colleges.

I think that some of the struggle over this issue can be linked to the fact that for my generation even C students could get into 4 year schools and community colleges where for even worse students than that. Of course, most of these students couldn’t make it once there, but they could get in.

So, for some parents, especially the many parents who are busying doing everything but participating in their child’s education, it comes as a surprise to learn how competitive college admissions has become.

By Dan

October 27, 2005 04:40 PM | Link to this

Amazed people appreciate the value of what they earn more than what is given to them. But regardless the perception that the tax cuts were for the rich is simply factually wrong. everyone got the same percentage cuts. In fact since the cuts the top tiers are actually paying a higher percentage of the total than they were. Hey the women and children reference is old, they pay no tax anyway so how can you give them a cut. Oh and BTW tax cuts have resulted in a jump in tax revenues every single time they have been implemented, because they stimulate the economy (you think all Teddy Kennedy complained when his brother did it). So in reality those tax cuts created more money for those in need. The ones stealing are the capable people who just stay in the welfare cycle (which would be most of them)

By SWC

October 27, 2005 04:59 PM | Link to this

Thanks Dan - you are right on!

Amazed - Many of the rich liberals inherited their wealth and don’t have a clue what its like to actually go out an earn it. And believe me, even those who didn’t, like the Hollywood crowd, try every trick they can to avoid paying those very same taxes they claim to support.

If Dems like John Kerry think that people making over $100,000 a year is “rich” then why doesn’t he live on his Senate income instead of living off of Teresa? He couldn’t do it! Ot Ted Kennedy and his grandpa’s moonshine money?

Listen, I have nothing against inheritance, and I am in favor of eliminating the death tax, but I’m not going around demanding that we give up our pitiful taxcuts to fund some bloated government program that just makes thing worse.

By Joshua Grady

October 31, 2005 04:38 PM | Link to this

Ok I attend Stone Mountain High School in Stone Mountain,Georgia The truth is most teenagers aren’t perpared because they lack the motivation, the will, and the effort to buckle down and take education seriously. The education system has to change pertaining todays High Schools in State of Georiga Teachers in high schools are teaching students base on memorization and what the standardize test requries so they meet their goal for the state requriments.A example the ITBS, EOCT, READ,and ect… In most cases teacher teach the way they were talt not. Teacher should find methods to which they can help students be successful were it fits everybody needs ensuring that they are getting the best education possible at a high standard. A person should be given a option to what career they want which they can persuit in school. That is if you want them to be successful in school and do well on the SAT and ACT.