Get Schooled

By OldSchool

October 25, 2005 11:48 AM | Link to this

“Teacher Too” is absolutely correct about the importance of the correct attitudes in education. For an article that speaks to me of hope, try this one from the San Francisco Gate: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/10/25/BAGO9FDD351.DTL

If this mother can inspire and support her children, surely others who have so many more advantages could follow suit.

By Karen Armsby

October 25, 2005 11:51 AM | Link to this

It is all about attitude and expectations, whether you compare a Chinese or American or South African student. Any and all children model their attitudes after their parents or guardians and rise or fall to the level of expectations of their parents or guardians. Children succeed best when they are reared in homes by parents who have positive attitudes toward learning, cooperative attitudes with teachers and schools, and high expectations of successful performance from their children. Children do not succeeed in homes where the attitude toward learning is absent or negative, where there is no cooperative attitude with the teachers or schools and where expectations are low. Whether the student succeeds or fails is directly influenced by their home environment.

By jennifer

October 25, 2005 11:56 AM | Link to this

OldSchool- Thanks for posting that link. What an amazing article. Better yet, what an amazing woman.

I will think on the rest.

By oldteacher

October 25, 2005 12:04 PM | Link to this

I enjoyed the article, Oldschool. Thanks for the link. I especially liked the line about teachers being important but that it all starts at home. I think most of us would agree with that statement. If we would stop disagreeing about who is to blame for whatever, we might improve education not only in Georgia, but in the USA.

By Marney

October 25, 2005 12:17 PM | Link to this

My kids go to a title1 public school that is half refugees. These kids have large families, little or no English, and parents stuggling in minimum wage jobs and dangerous appartment complexes. But the vast majority of these families value education in a way that most Americans have forgotten how to do—and I feel privledged to have this value system surround my own children. And 30 years from now, all of these children will be successful leaders and whole persons because both their families and their school expects that of them.

By jennifer

October 25, 2005 12:33 PM | Link to this

Parents definitely play a big role in their child’s education. If parents do not view education as important, then neither will their children. If parents complain about the amount of homework a child is given, then that child will only learn to complain about work rather than actually doing the work.

Teachers, too, play a huge role in education because it is their attitudes as well that contributes to the learning of children. If you have a teacher that acts as if she does not want to come into class each day the children will pick up on this and things will most likely be rocky.

My daughter had a teacher who did nothing but complain everyday in class about how bad the kids were and that she could not wait to retire. No matter how bad the kids were she should not have told them the way she did. I think she could have found a better way to communicate their negative actions and how those actions were impacting others.

I also think backing from the school administration is necessary. Teachers cannot do the job on their own. It requires parents and administration backing as well.

Although it is a reality that not all children will attend college, I do believe that the least likely children should have a chance rather than be written off to do hard labor for the rest of their lives or thought of as being in dead-end jobs. There are many children who now have wonderful jobs who never thought they would simply because someone believed in them. But, how do you get the message across to a child who does not seem to care and whose family does not seem to get it?

I have wondered what schools would be like if all of the disruptive students were removed. Would it be fair? Is it fair to keep them in classes with students who are not being disruptive?
Why is it that when the school finally makes the decision to remove the negative students their parents finally come out of the woodwork to complain? Why not be involved from the beginning?

I think, too, that having both parents in the work force makes it more difficult to keep tabs on Little Johnny. When parents get home at 7:00pm or later from their commute the last thing they want to do is homework. Sometimes they do well just getting home and trying to interact with the family. I do believe that if one parent can stay at home with the child(ren) it will most definitely have a positive impact on the student and the household in general. I was lucky enough to be able to do this when I first moved to Atlanta but now I work 40 hrs/wk. like most other people and I find that when I get home I am dog tired and sometimes I develop ADHD by flying around the house trying to get things picked up, supper fixed, and making sure everyone has done their homework - correctly.

By jennifer

October 25, 2005 12:35 PM | Link to this

I swear I’ve had edumecation. Please forgive my lack of proper punctuation.

By RF

October 25, 2005 12:42 PM | Link to this

We absolutely must work together to get our kids to realize how demanding and important education is. I have a class that just left who were reading an article on Rosa Parks, who died yesterday. They knew her name and knew the basics. No matter how hard I worked to engage them and motivate them, they whined because they had to read a two page summary of Rosa’s life and cooperatively use a graphic organizer to summarize it. I plodded on and reached most of the kids with the passion I thought the story of Rosa’s experience deserved, but not without tapping a few on the shoulder for trying to sleep and having to ignore those who whined “do we HAVE to do this?” OMG if I ever hear my sons whine like that, I think they’ll end up grounded until college!! I love teaching, but some days it absolutely kills me how impossible it is to reach them. One even asked if he could “watch it on TV and tell me about it tomorrow”….

By oldteacher

October 25, 2005 12:46 PM | Link to this

Jennifer, I love all your thoughts. Working together, with the right attitude, is what it is all about.

By Robert

October 25, 2005 12:49 PM | Link to this

I agree completely. As a high school teacher, I see students entering high school with their thoughts on everything except for learning. They care about boyfriend/girlfriend. They care about parties. They care about lunch time to socialize. They care about their cell phones. They care about sports. They do not care about learning.

In the class, these same students will do anything to get out of class. “I want to go call my Mom.” “I need to go to the rest room.” “I don’t feel well.” And on and on. They will say anthing if there is a chance that they get to leave the class room to roam the halls with a chance to socialize.

Please understand that I am not describing all student. At my high school there is a percentage of students that really are students - they want to learn; they are working on their school work; they bring their books and materials to class; they study for tests; etc. However, this percentage is far too small.

This morning I had a conference with a parent and a student that didn’t care. He told his Mom to go to he@# in front of me and then walked out of the door. She shrugged her shoulders and said that she could do nothing. Therein lies the problem. Parents do not know how to parent - plain and simple. However, it is the teachers that are responsible????? Go figure!

By Gina Rickett

October 25, 2005 01:02 PM | Link to this

As a parent with a child in middle school, I could not agree more. My child is struggling right now in school but not for the right reasons of education but for the wrong reasons. She is struggling with the fact that many kids in a few of her classes just do not get it and kid around disrupting others that are trying to take their coreses seriously. Because of this the teacher cannot get her lessons to come across to the students and there is not one thing that she can do about except consistently day after day send “those” students to the office and all they will get is a slip of paper for in-school suspension. The schools do have a problem but as parents it is our responsibility to make sure our kids are desciplined at home and taught to respect their elders “but alot of kids are’nt” and because of that their selfish minds and disruptive attitudes leanger into our schools systems and there is not a thing that teachers or the board of education will do about it. Why, because they are afraid of being sued, loosing their jobs and the most freightning of all getting physically harrased or hurt by students. Why is this sooo taboo when every dignified responsible parent knows it is true, why can’t our county, state, and national dignitaries do something? Think about it!

By J.G.

October 25, 2005 01:07 PM | Link to this

Teacher Too is not alone in what she feels and sees happening in our public school system. Excellent article, our only hope is someone listening.

By oldteacher

October 25, 2005 01:13 PM | Link to this

I hear your frustration, Gina. Thankfully, I do not have too many disruptive students but it only takes one to totally ruin a class. We have to go through about a dozen steps before we can even send a student like this to the office (unless he/she is violent). They might be given after school detention but that doesn’t stop them from disrupting class. When their parents are called, many times they want to blame the teacher for not controlling the class. It is a no win situation. We do what we can, help those we can, and hope for the best.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

October 25, 2005 01:18 PM | Link to this

Robert,

How could you motivate a child who would dare to use such language with his/her parents? I’m an adult who would never use language such as that to address any adult, but my mother put the fear in me as a very small child.

Once it has reached that point, only juvenile hall can be considered. If she struck him or tried to take away privileges, he would probably have struck her and caused injury. The laws for disciplining children are favoring the child, so we have children who dare to use language such as that to address their parents.

We need to increase discipline in public schools that would reflect upon our strong desire to learn and have students achieve. I would have offered the mother the option of military school. I think in-school and out of school suspension is not a real punishment. Most kids who reach this level are more than happy to go home or sit around all day doing nothing.

By HSTeach

October 25, 2005 01:34 PM | Link to this

I completely agree with “Too” The attitude in this country is becoming more and more of a problem for educators….everyone “expects” kids to go to college even if they can’t hack it. Parents, for some reason, equate “good kid” with “good student.” Some parents even feel that since they have a “good kid” that they should at least be given the opportunity to go to college, even if their academic progress does not suggest it. What are left with is a completely fragmented society, all who believe that they are “owed” a college education, even if they don’t deserve one. So what’s the answer…tracking? I wish!! I’m sorry, but tracking now does not have anything to do with race…although in a district where most of the kids are black, sure, you’ll probably have a higher number of black kids being tracked for vocational education, don’t scream racism when it happens…but for the most part, what we’ll have are those students going to college who actually deserve to go and who are going for an education. Where is the problem with going to a technical college or a vocational school after high school? I’m sorry that kids work hard and don’t quite cut it for college….but that’s life folks. I worked hard at my job during college, but I didn’t get any free passes or any promotions b/c I was nice. Those that were better at what they did got the promotions. Oh, and we didn’t celebrate the 21st runner up for employee of the week either….anyone else see too much of this in schools?

By Nel

October 25, 2005 01:36 PM | Link to this

To Robert: I have to agree with you. I remember hearing a mother on a local radio program a few years ago who said she dropped in at her son’s school unannounced just to see what he was up to and that there were times that his friends would alert him to the fact that his mother was on the premises. He always kept it together because he never knew when she would show up. People complain that the problem is single mothers whose sons don’t respect them which carries over to their female teachers. Unfortunately, it appears that the young boys have taken on the role of men at home and feel they can do whatever they want, including publicly disrespecting their mothers. I’ve heard kids tell their parent that they can’t do x, y, z to them or else they’ll call DEFACS. If my child told that I’d DEFACS their butts because I’m still in charge. I have no problem in double checking with my children’s teachers if I even suspect that they are performing up to their abilities.

One of my kids wanted to blame the teacher for getting a bad grade for a pop quiz the had 2 weeks to rpepare for, but given a day before they expected it. Apparently it was believed the like some parents, I would complain that it was unfair. I explained that since they knew it was coming, they were responsible for being unprepared, not the teacher for cathing them off guard. My lesson was there are consequences for your actions, and don’t pass the blame. I know my kids’ teachers well enough to know when they are underperforming and I honestly think most parents do also, but they don’t want to have their kids mad at them.

By Nel

October 25, 2005 01:46 PM | Link to this

I have read more and more recently about some kind of vocational training for those who it is evident will not do well in a college setting. Maybe we really need to reach back and reexamine apprenticeships as opposed to making kids stay in school until 18 who don’t want to be there, having them not graduate at all, and sending them on their way with no skills or education.

By Laura

October 25, 2005 02:10 PM | Link to this

There are attitude problems all the way around. The teacher’s attitude towards students, towards parents, towards their administration and education. The Admin’s attitude towards teachers, student, education and parents. The parent’s attitudes towards teachers, admin, their own child and education. The child’s attitude towards their teacher, their school work, the admin, their parents, their peers.

It’s all related and it all needs to improve.

By HSTeach

October 25, 2005 02:46 PM | Link to this

Laura…please…in general, the teachers are there to teach the kids…how much of an attitude problem do the majority of teachers have, especially with students or parents?? Last time I checked, teachers are professionals, even if they are considered among the lowest ranking jobs in society…and need to respected as such…I think you would be hard pressed to find a huge number of teachers with attitude problems toward parents and students…when in actuality, the problem lies within those parents and those students.

By HSTeach

October 25, 2005 02:55 PM | Link to this

Larua…I don’t mean to say that teachers aren’t at fault, b/c I know some are. But I’m getting sick and tired of parents who complain b/c they “think” they have a smart kid, when in fact they just can’t deal with the idea of having a mediocre student as a child…so they lash out at the teacher, b/c SOMETHING has to be wrong with the teacher if their son/daughter doesn’t bring home A’s.

By Laura

October 25, 2005 02:58 PM | Link to this

Oh, right. All teachers are perfect in every way and it’s everyone else, admin, parents and students who need the attitude adjustment.

You’re kidding, right?

By HSTeach

October 25, 2005 03:05 PM | Link to this

did you read my last comment?

By TruthHurts

October 25, 2005 03:25 PM | Link to this

The sad truth is: we don’t value education in America as we should.

Try getting the school day, school week or the school year extended. If you tried to extend the elementary school day extended from 2:30 pm until 3:30 or even 3 pm, there would be mass rioting in the streets. If you proposed the lengthing of the school week to include Saturday morning, there would be marches on the school board. If you tried to lengthen the school year — as is done in all other industrialized nations — the sky would fall.

Value education? If you paid teachers as good minor league shortstops are paid, people would cry “fiscal irresponisibility”.

All the while people like Superintendent Cox and the Georgia School Council Institute preach that the answer is a superficial, snapshot, oversimplified analysis of how schools are doing — the standardized test.

The Painful Truth: until the citizenry demonstrates value for education, our children will think that education is like everything else — their unearned privilege.

By May the force be with you...

October 25, 2005 03:29 PM | Link to this

The general public and the parents continue to be in the dark. When will they realize that the administrative systems threaten the job security of each individual below them to make the test scores increase. When Beverly Hall makes a $60,000 bonus from the APS School Board, because the goals of raising test scores have been met… there is something wrong with the system. Honest principals in the system will tell you how those test scores are increased. When their jobs are threaten…a clean up crew comes in on the weekend with a pencil and an eraser to clean up stray marks on these standardized tests. The school administrators are in charge of the testing materials until they are sent in for grading…If you want high test scores…those threatened will give you high test scores at any price. When an administrator and teacher are required to increase test scores or sacrifice their job…What do you think they will do? As the test scores increase…federal funds decrease…and local systems will need to pick up the tab. Parents turn a blind eye to the increased scores…as every parent is in the dark and assumes the child is progressing. One good reminder…as any teacher will tell you…Children always do better when they “think” they are smarter. These made up scores help to build confidence…and bulk up the “queen’s ego”. Likewise, they help to line the local superintendent’s pocket for those foolish systems willing to pay a bonus check to increase their test scores for political reasons. Nothing is any different in the school system…nothing any less has been the case in the business world…The public has grown accustomed to inflated numbers through the various dishonest company scandals like Enron. But some of us retired from the school system have SEEN WHAT TAKES PLACE IN THE BACK ROOM AFTER THE SUN GOES DOWN…The “Test score Queen” has no clothes. We know how she uses the fake increases of a child’s test score to feed her political ego…Teachers and principals could tell the truth about what goes on in the unregulated back rooms of schools with the magic eraser…but most are waiting out for the big check…The retirement check. It takes numbers to fight the system…and school systems along with the “Professional Standards of Georgia” make sure anyone willing to expose this underground “increase the test scores system” is very quickly squelched.

As for teachers receiving help to expose this corruption through the parents…Neighborhood property values increase when the local test scores rise…so who would complain???

Some of us see through this political maheim…We see the queen and her court nose high in something that continues to smell bad. One day soon the truth will surface…It has already exposed its ugly head. As time has gone by…those dramatic increases in scores from the elementary levels to middle and high school do not continue to rise. When the testing materials are in custody of someone with outside authority of the school system…the scores are noticeably different.

Until the state sends in an official outside agency to handle the testing materials at every school at every level within the local schools…the scores are just what they are…a short term reflection of threats for job security for those holding a political position. No different than any other government agency, or big business trying to keep the general public in the dark until they can get out of the door with the money in their lined pocket. So the beat goes on…The real “force” is with some of us…Payday is more than going to the bank on this planet.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

October 25, 2005 03:33 PM | Link to this

HSTeach,

When I read this blog and others, teachers seem to place all the blame on parents or the administration. In many situations it might be true, but teachers can also be part of the problem. Yes, teaching is a professional field. However, many of the parents are professionals as well. I had one teacher who tried to correct me on a math problem, but because of her profession and lack of respect for parents, found out the book was incorrect.

The problem was only worth 3 points, but it was all the difference to my honor roll student.

The teacher had an attitude for the rest of the year.

So, if you are a professional, act like one when you are incorrect.

Whenever someone corrects me, I say “Thank You with a smile and I will make sure it is corrected in the future.”

By DB

October 25, 2005 03:48 PM | Link to this

Thank you Patti! The post was great!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By HSTeach

October 25, 2005 03:49 PM | Link to this

Once again, there is no need to blanket the blame on everyone…of course everyone has faults and makes awful decisions…the point I’m trying to make here is that most parents and school districts SIDE WITH THE KIDS NO MATTER WHAT!!! In light of what happened w/ Doc Nease (sp?) I asked our BOE what they thought of the situation and they said it depended on why the kid was sleeping….WHY…if the kid made up an excuse, that the admin or the BOE thought was plausible, they took the word of the kid over the teacher….parents, admins, and boe’s are getting snowed by these kids who play the game perfectly…parents v. teachers…it’s always the kids who “win” when they pit us against each other for their benefit

By LHK

October 25, 2005 03:53 PM | Link to this

I’m a product of the (north) Fulton County school system (class of 1998), and throughout my years there, I had certain classes that had a distinctly academic environment to them… and certain classes that had the very clear opposite. The importance of the teacher’s attitude in the classroom is paramount. I had teachers who coddled their students and encouraged poor behavior simply by the fact of not discouraging it. There were teachers who, it seemed, didn’t want to be seen as “too serious” or “un-fun.” I remember several classes where the teachers gave us time to talk about Friday’s football game, or share pictures from Prom or Homecoming. Not too much fun for the less social kids, and I remember often feeling self-conscious during these classroom social hours. There were several disruptive kids in my less academic classes who switched on their good behavior when they went into a stricter, more academic class. And why not? My generation seems to be one that’s always looking for what they can get away with. I should note, though, that it was almost always my Honors and AP classes that had strictly academic environments. A kid who takes only “regular” classes may well find himself with several social hours in addition to lunch.

I taught English in Japan in 2003 and 2004, and the basic idea most Americans have about their educational system is pretty much true: cram school, school on Saturday, killer exams, constant studying. There are few students there one can accuse of laziness. School is a very strict environment, and after-school sports and clubs are taken quite seriously as well. Of course, they do pay a price: a lot of my students were constantly exhausted. Japanese students could stand to have a little more free time, while American students could stand to have a little less.

By DB

October 25, 2005 03:55 PM | Link to this

Patti’s Questions:

What is education supposed to do? And, where does a “free and public education� begin and end?

Education is to prevent “mass ignorance” and create a society where everyone is civil, hardworking, and productive.

Should education become a privilege that can be taken away under specific circumstances?

Yes, when students are severly disruptive, they should lose their right to attend mainstream schools. An d, maybe they should be sent to “behavioral” schools that separate them from their family and friends to teach them the basics of acting civil. Then they could “graduate” and have the chance to attend mainstream once again.

Should we continue to try to educate those students who are severely disruptive, who time and again, are suspended?

Not in the mainstream setting. See above.

Those who interfere with the learning processes of other students who continually fail, year after year?

Not in the mainstream setting. See above.

And, why do we only seem to value those students who may be college-bound?

This isn’t realistic. We should bring back vocational studies for those that want to learn vocation. Make schools more lifelike where the main lessoned learned are that you have to work hard and be respectful no matter what you do.

Why not have more focused technical programs for students who aren’t going to college?

Yes. We should!

By Teacher, Too

October 25, 2005 04:02 PM | Link to this

It is not my intention to lay blame. We play that game all too often. I do think that we, as a greater society, undervalue education. What I see at my school, and several others where I have taught, is a fundamental lack of respect for education by students.

By HSTeach

October 25, 2005 04:07 PM | Link to this

Why should they respect anything that they can’t identify with? Gone are the days of blanket respect…respect for elders, respect for your neighbor, respect for the people you absolutely hate to work with…..i didn’t say you had to like them…..so if the kids are learning that they should only respect the stuff that they identify with, it’s no wonder education is on the back burner to sports, cell phones, and sex…..where’s the appeal for kids in being a social outcast (i.e. nerd)? Not many of them can see past the next day anyway, so why should they look down the road at the massive train wreck that awaits everyone?

By Nel

October 25, 2005 04:13 PM | Link to this

To this day I remember my strict teachers because we knew not to misbehave in their classes, and guess what, we learned because they didn’t give any other option. They might not have been our favorite, but looking back, they were the best. Once we became exposed to more and more younger teachers in out teen years, it was pretty easy to see that they were intimidated and the kids took advantage of them. We also only had one standardized test per year in the upper grades and the entire country took it. All other testing was created and administered by the teachers and you were tested on the curriculum so they could see who had a grasp of the topics and who didn’t. I’m sure there are those who would say that teachers would favor some over others in grading but then that presupposes they are devoid of integrity and objectivity and don’t have the ability to recognize who has learned and who has not. Things haven’t changed much elsewhere in the world, and the US system keeps trying to reinvent the wheel without much success.

By SWC

October 25, 2005 04:18 PM | Link to this

TruthHurts- Don’t come anywhere near me with your ideas about longer school days, Saturday classes, et cetera! This is NOT necessary for the vast majority of students. Maybe a charter school for “at-risk kids”, but not for the rest of us unless we VOLUNTEER for this sort of schedule.

LHK - Thanks for the reality check about Japanese education and student burnout. I’m tired of hearing about how fabulous it is in Japan. I’ll take a classic American education (like in Northeastern prep schools) anyday over the Japanese method. Our cultures are completely different.

Instead of a revolution, maybe we just need to return to the traditional British-based, rigourous but creative education that our grandparents got versus the stifling and uninspiring curriulum that public schools seem to favor.

By HS Science

October 25, 2005 04:59 PM | Link to this

Over the past two years I have focused my classes on student centered learning - where the student must take an active role in their education. It was strange that students did not want you to lecture while they took notes - that was boring. Students wanted fill-in-the-blank reading sheets but did not want to bring the heavy book to class. Now that they work with open ended questions they beg for lectures and ask why can’t you just tell them what page to find the answer on (10-20 pages is too much to read). My answer to their new pleas is “You respect, cherish and appreciate what you have worked for.”

Our students as a whole do not respect education because it is a given. Having spent several years of traveling abroad, I’ve seen what it means to children where an education is a priviledge. Last year our Mayor brought our African sister-sity’s mayor to our school to speak. The media was present and we as a staff were embarrassed. The Mayor spoke of the school system where the children were separated by possiblities at what would be our 3rd or 4th grade. By the time the students were 12 they would either continue in school or go to work. Our students laughed. When picutes of one of the sister-city’s good school was shown, our students laughed to see students in uniform and rooms without air-conditioners. Our students laughed when they heard that students had to walk to school and many stayed in dormitories because their homes were too far. Our students laughed to hear that during planting and harvest time the students had break to work in the fields.

After the assembly I spoke with my class and they thought it was funny that the dummies had to go to work by 12 or 13. The next day I brought in a picture of my grandfather and his brother who attended B.T. Washington High School in the early 20’s. It was sad that most of what today’s students were laughing about was what my grandfather and his brothers (7) wanted.

Students must value education. Parents must value education. Schools are not ment to be state run K-12 day cares.

By TruthHurts

October 25, 2005 05:16 PM | Link to this

I told you that more time-on-task would raise howls from those ready to make excuses.

The wheel doesn’t need to be re-invented — it already exists…

By Angela

October 26, 2005 08:36 AM | Link to this

To TruthHurts — Apparently you zeroed in on only one of the things the Georgia School Council Institute has said. I’m the Executive Director and have conducted most of the workshops and written most of the material we use. Yes, we have told parents to find out how their schools are doing. We have also taught that data analysis does not provide answers but at best leads one to other questions and indicators to look for. Yes, we post test scores and sometimes analyze them ourselves. They are one measure and the only one publicly available. You have to start somewhere. GSCI has focused much more of our time trying to build a collaborative attitude towards education. If we do not come together to honestly discuss the kinds of questions Patti is asking and decide what it is that we must provide, what we would like to provide, and what to do when students refuse the opportunities they have we will never get anywhere. Parents, students, teachers, administrators, policymakers, and commmunity members are all responsible for what happens in our schools and should work together to create a better working environment and learning environment. If it makes you feel better, GSCI is closing. The website, however, will remain.

By Dan

October 26, 2005 08:59 AM | Link to this

HSTeach Your post about respect jarred loose an interesting thought. I completely agree about the lack of respect comments. But it goes even further and encompasses respect for rules and institutions. I wonder how much of it is due to how hard our system has pushed the doctrine of self respect. That’s not to say you shouldn’t respect yourself but when kids receive a barrage of “be proud of who you are (before you do anything to be proud of) and respect yourself no matter what others say, there could be the tendency to disrespect others ie the teachers, other adults or students. After all it is easy to see a kid thinking, if the actions of two people are polar opposites how can they both be respected. I probably didn’t articulate that very well, just a thought I would throw out there.

By Karen Armsby

October 26, 2005 09:25 AM | Link to this

Dan, You hit the nail on the head. The ‘be proud’ and ‘self respect’ mantras mean nothing if kids don’t know what respect is, can’t spell it, haven’t had it taught to them at home, and don’t know that respect is what you earn when you first show it to others, and when you prove your own worth through words, actions and hard work.

By Karen Armsby

October 26, 2005 09:54 AM | Link to this

Over the centuries the definition of ‘educated’ has changed drastically. Educated in America used to mean you could read and write and do enough math to run a business or a household, and most people had at most an eighth grade education. Then completion of four more years in high school became the norm. The education industry has grown to the point now where we think that everyone needs four (or five or more) years and college and we Americans are being led to believe that college is the norm. The world is very different today and many career paths do require a college education, but many do not. Instead of viewing the college track as the only higher education level, educators should expand their universe to include the technician and technical tracks, the service worker and retail and construction and medical industry tracks. Bring back the technical and journeymen trade schools and focus on giving students some real life attainable career goals, and do it in the four years of high school. And for K-12, establish contracts with each student, expectations of performance, and clear consequences (expulsion) for non performance or disruptive behavior. Amend the No Child Left Behid Act to read ‘No Well Behaved, Hard Working Child Left Behind.’

By Velatra

October 26, 2005 11:26 AM | Link to this

Amen, Karen, Amen!!!!

By Tiffany

October 26, 2005 11:41 AM | Link to this

To all teachers: Keep up the good work for those who are trying despite the odds. I have children who are in the public school system. They’ve had some good and some bad teachers. The bad teachers, well, I just have to fill in where he\she did not…..complain in silence (NOT letting my children hear)and continue to let my children know that WE are in charge of their destiny. I just can’t believe all the complaining and finger pointing I’m reading! It saddens me though when I read people actually feeling that we should just kick the problem kids to the curb! READ ALL THE POSTS from parents. You will see why we have so many disruptive kids in school.

By Tiffany

October 26, 2005 12:02 PM | Link to this

Karen: I don’t feel that we need to leave that up to the teachers. That’s a parent’s responsibility. Every good parent knows their children. I will use my self as an example….I have 3 children, 2nd child has wanted to be a doctor since she could speak. 3rd child has always wanted to become a lawyer since she was potty trained, and their grads reflect such. My first child, on the other hand, wants to become an architect, but his grades dont’ reflect such. I continue to help him with his homework and studying. I don’t discourage, but I do share with him the other things his talents can attribute too, such as a including interior designers, commercial and industrial designers, and graphic designers….all can be obtain without a 4 year. However I will not give him the easy way out. He will continue to study and prepare for college. Whether he goes or not. I’m going to make that decision, not the school system.

By Nel

October 26, 2005 12:59 PM | Link to this

I recently read this very interesting article in USA Today that was quite an eye opener shows the lengths some parents will go to for their kids to get a good math/science foundation. http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/10/26/tutored.from.afar.ap/index.html

By high school teacher

October 26, 2005 01:14 PM | Link to this

SWC, Could you please explain the difference between a “traditional British-based, rigourous but creative education that our grandparents got versus the stifling and uninspiring curriulum that public schools seem to favor?” I thought that they were one and the same (according to education researchers). With regard to high school English, we are encouraged to select reading choices outside of the traditional canon (dead white British males) because kids cannot relate to their stories. Just what is so dull and uninspiring?

By SWC

October 26, 2005 01:46 PM | Link to this

High School Teacher “With regard to high school English, we are encouraged to select reading choices outside of the traditional canon (dead white British males) because kids cannot relate to their stories.”

We have dumbed-down the curriculum AND minimalized the importance of art, music, literature (“great books”)- the foundation of Western Civilization - the foundation of our nation as originally founded.

We have discarded the educational prinicples that gave us the greatest nation on earth in favor of politically correct mantras of diversity and multi-culturalism. We are teaching subjects like science in a box. We think of school as punishment. We have made school boring and unispiring.

I had a H.S. student tell me yesterday how WONDERFUL her English lit teacher was -She taught “The Grapes of Wrath”, but didn’t make them read the whole book! Nope - they got summaries of the chapters that the teacher found unnecessary. Steinbeck must be rolling over in his grave!

There is nothing better than an old-fashioned British/American based education, but there are very few places to get that education in this country anymore with exception of some, mostly New England, prep schools. Even the Ivy Leaque schools are a discrace, with the notable exception of Columbia which still has a core curriculum.

India, with its British-Colonial history, does it right, although you have to go to private school to get it. Out-sourcing anyone?

By Kym

October 26, 2005 01:57 PM | Link to this

Tiffany- I dont think the point is to kick problem kids to the curb. However, there are kids who really and truly have no desire to learn. Yes at the elementary level you have to force them to go, work with them and hope that something will click. But by 15 years old, if the kid is still jumping off of desk, fighting in the classroom and general causing problems for other kids, then that kid should be reformed school bound, or out the door. This is a harsh world, and the behavior that teen is exhibiting in high school is not going to change much once he becomes a adult and has to work a job. Sometimes teen need a sweet taste of reality to bring them around. Otherwise, we have plenty of jails that he can occupy. Reality is Harsh.

By Susan

October 26, 2005 02:16 PM | Link to this

I get so discouraged as a teacher when I hear all of this “blame game”. I just want to teach children. I want to excite students about learning and stop being the “skill-drill” teacher who has to make sure a child passes a test before being promoted. I tire of the paperwork required of us and all the extra work expected of me outside of the classroom. Still, I chose this profession, and to be honest, many of you out there wouldn’t do what I do. There will always be problems with some teachers, parents, and administrators because of the human factor involved. I have to keep myself pumped up and be cheerleader for myself because the praise from parents or administrators does not come very often. It is the comments from former students when they see me on the street that validates my worth. I may not be the best teacher in the world, but I did make a difference to someone. Regarding the social side of school—-you are right. I prefer my own child to take honors type coursework so that he will be prepared for the real world workplace with the least amount of disruption in the classroom. I recently moved my student to private school hoping to find less classroom disruptions. The behaviors problems seem to be fewer. However, even in private school, I’ve found a huge emphasis on sports rather than academics. We had hoped that we had found am atmosphere more conducive to active hands on learning. However, I still hear the comments about not enough time for homework because of sports. Therefore, the teacher is giving too much homework. My husband and I spend time with our son at night reviewing his assignments and doing any enrichment to the daily classroom lecture. It takes alot out of us, especially when we have both worked all day. If one’s child is to be successful, the cooperation of the school and home must be present. As the teacher shortage grows, who will take over and be the teachers of the future for our children? There doesn’t seem to be a lot of takers willing to take on the task of educating students by working so many hours for so little pay.

By Tiffany

October 26, 2005 02:28 PM | Link to this

What concerns me is the statement, “…..or out the door”. I agree that there are some children that will be lost to the system, but can we at least send them to reform school or a boot camp? I feel that that is why we have so many ‘lost’ children because we rather go the inexpensive and less paperwork route. At least can we try other methods before we call it quits? When I was in school, there was no such thing as attention deficit. Now we have to medicate children to behave. Why can’t those children who have been labeled ADD simply be children who does not want to sit still enough to listen is school? Then we have the parents who do not have the funds to get their children tested, be labeled “disruptive children”?????? Again there are some who need to be medicated, the deserve at least a chance. Why can’t it apply to all children…..instead of saying “get out….I don’t care what happens to you….just get out”.

By tiffany

October 26, 2005 02:33 PM | Link to this

Wow!!! Susan - A public school teacher who has opted to send her child to a private school…. Reality is harsh, isn’t it Kym.

By TruthHurts

October 26, 2005 02:57 PM | Link to this

Public Schools know what to do, but usually don’t (or can’t) do things they know help with academics, because of political pressures from parents or interference from the state legislature or Department of Education

Public schools know, as do private schools, that smaller class size may help, particularly when parents insist their children know how education is valued in that home.

Public schools know, as do private schools, that all students should participate in some extracurricular activity (also known to enhance performance in all academic subjects). Private schools generally insist on this participation.

On the other hand, public schools: 1) take “all comers”, whether they want to be there or not, whether they have parental support or not; 2) try to teach art and music — known to enhance performance in all academic subjects — but the time constraints on a school day truncate these subjects; 3) have fiscal limitations placed by those that feel they pay enough in taxes.

Public school reform needs to include back-to-the-basics of what is known to make students succeed. And that’s not more standardized tests…

By Teacher, Too

October 26, 2005 03:37 PM | Link to this

I don’t think that anyone is suggesting that we “kick them to the curb.” If you have ever seen some of the SST files we get on students from elementary school- some are two inches thick of interventions that have been tried with unmotivated students or students with behavioral problems.

However, I do think there needs to come a time when all options have been exhausted, and a student has to become accountable for his/her actions.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

October 26, 2005 04:09 PM | Link to this

If a child has a SST file is two inches thick with interventions at elementary school, someone has not been doing their job completely. There are obviously problems at home and the intervention was probably a joke. It should have probably been passed along to DFACS, not that they would do any better.

Children usually act out for a reason, even if it’s for a little attention. We need more child mentoring programs and we need them in elementary and middle school.

By Karen Armsby

October 27, 2005 08:43 AM | Link to this

Tiffany, In response to your comment on 10/26 to my comment at 9:54, I did not say that it is all of the teacher’s responsibility to decide how students choose courses and careers. I meant that schools should be offering more career path options.

Ideally, a student’s path in education is guided, influenced, and encouraged by his or her parents in cooperation with the school. Sometimes the parents drop the ball, sometimes the school drops the ball, and sometimes the student does. Ultimately, when the student has completed the junior year of high school his or her opportunities after high school are defined. Either he or she has the grades and the test scores and the desire to go to college, or the student doesn’t have the grades or test scores and should go to work or into a trade and pursue that training. At that point it is not the parent’s choice.

Students need help from the earliest grades understanding the importance of doing well in school in order to have the opportunities they seek after graduation. Poor preparation = poor performance = fewer opportunities. Good preparation = good performance = more opportunities.

By Laura

October 27, 2005 11:16 AM | Link to this

High school is nothing like real life. In high school you have to be good at everything. In real life you can focus on your strengths.

In high school you have to be around people you don’t like or respect and in real life you can make changes to get away from people you don’t like or respect.

In high school you have to be a morning person. In real life you can get a job that starts later than 7:10 a.m. or you can have jobs like my last 3 jobs that have no set start time.

In high school you can be president of the student council, homecoming queen, cheerleader, football star and get a lot of hot air shot up your skirt. In real life, nobody cares about that and the trip back down the mountain to reality can be painful.

In high school you spend 7 hours there and then come home to 2 or 3 more hours of homework. In real life you can get a job that doesn’t require overtime.

In high school you have to be able to survive in crowds and mobs. In real life, you can avoid those situations.

I don’t buy for one second that a person has to succeed in high school (or younger) to succeed in life. High school is more like a prison.

By SWC

October 27, 2005 11:19 AM | Link to this

Teacher Too: “One reason we have an extremely watered-down curriculum is because students are too busy after school to actually study. Until everyone accepts that a challenging curriculum cannot be taught in 50 minute classeson learning…”

I don’t buy this premise. The curriculum has been a problem, but if it is “watered down” it is not because of short claases. In the old days school was from 9:00 a.m. till 3:00 p.m. and at least 2 days a week involved afterschool (often school-sponsored)activities. Classes were 40 minutes in length.

Yes, we had more homework, but we also didn’t bore our students to death with overly long, attention-wandering classes. We got recess, fresh air, shunshine. We got a decent lunch period. We had daily study hall. We focused on a stimulating core curriculum that included art and music appreciation, for example. We excelled. When we came home we still had some energy left to read and do homework.

The kids are too burned out by the overly long school day, overly long classes, and lack of any meaningful breaks during the day. The approach is all wrong, especially once middle school starts.

Instead of 50 or 60 minute classes, why not take away 3 or 4 inconseqeuntial minutes a class and let them get outside and breathe for a change?

Bt the way, the comparison cited of 2 girls on GMA has no statistical meaning. Further, and more important, since when is China the paragon of excellence? What is it about Communist China is it that we are supposed to emulate? Is it the low wages? The forced abortions? The poverty? The lack of freedom? Lets get real and stop painting a propagandist’s idealized picture of life in China, or the foreign culture du jour.

We need look no further than our own shores to find educational excellence - it existed before the dark ages of The Sixties “revolutionized” American education.

By Dan

October 27, 2005 11:21 AM | Link to this

Laura I hope your last post was tongue-in-cheek, or maybe you are still in HS. But trust me HS is a vacation compared to the real world (and thats not even counting the amount of real vacation you get). If you really believe your post you are in for a very rude awakening.

By Tiffany

October 27, 2005 11:33 AM | Link to this

In reference to Laura’s comment… Like I stated yesterday Dan….. we wonder why our kids are lost or disruptive in class????? It starts at home first.

By RF

October 27, 2005 11:42 AM | Link to this

Not to argue, but why do you folks think school is the way it is? We’re trying to please you and answer to your (society’s) demands. Society asks for more rigor, more fun, more challenge, more variety, more options, more basics,longer school years, shorter school days, more rest time, more individial instruction, more career training, less homework, more reading, more math, more,more, more!! We’ll never make everyone happy, but god help us we’re trying to the point of physical and mental exhaustion. We care, believe me as a teacher, we’re doing the best we can.

By Dan

October 27, 2005 12:23 PM | Link to this

I agree tiffany But I can also imagine almost any 15 yr old girl, who just had a bad day at school saying that, regardless of their parents. Lets just hoped it is something like that and not an ingrained belief.

By Tiffany

October 27, 2005 12:25 PM | Link to this

True…..

By Laura

October 27, 2005 02:05 PM | Link to this

I’m a 42-year-old college graduate (with some grad work, actually a PhD dropout!). I’m not a kid. I’m also a mother of a boy who is ADHD and dyslexic who attends a private school for this population. My son was utterly failed by public school.

My own experience in “good” public schools was mediocre at best. I had exactly ONE stand out teacher in 1st-12th grades (4th grade). My university epxerience was much much better. That’s when my real education started. I had to catch up a bit from what I didn’t learn in public school, but I graduated in 5 years.

You wouldn’t even believe my son’s experience in public school. Certainly, the highlight (meaning it made the newspaper) was when his 2nd grade teacher put tape on his classmate’s mouth and tucked him away in a locked storeroom (twice!) and left him there while the rest of the class went to lunch. Course the principal denied over and over there was a problem in the classroom despite the red flags including these kids constantly roaming the halls by themselves (teacher had an open “come and go” policy and, surprise!, the kids wanted to be out of the classroom instead of doing work).

When I moved him to his current private LD school the first thing I noticed was the teachers actually liked and respected the kids. I knew the public school situation wasn’t the best, but I had been underestimating just how bad an environment it was. So punitive! So chaotic! So many silly photo ops for the parents benefit! It was horrible. And it wasn’t just me and my special ed kid. Parents of regular ed kids are disgusted with school as it is now, too. There’s something very wrong! This isn’t isolated. It’s got to be a fundamental problem with public education.

When my grandparents went to high school there were only 11 grades. Why did we add 12th? Is it really necessary? Why can’t all school sports be privatized? Why is it we have to lure kids to school with extracurriculars? What happened to vocational education? What will happen to our society if everyone goes to college? Do we just turn over all other jobs to the illegals who will be happy to do them? Can we create voucher vocational schools for 16-19 year olds so there’s a publicly funded non-college option for kids?

There’s just so much to think about. The status quo isn’t cutting it.

By RF

October 27, 2005 03:08 PM | Link to this

One kid’s experiences don’t make a case, Laura, but I’ll grant you it isn’t perfect and there are some bad teachers out there.I too have an ADHD son, and he is receiving good services, because I make sure of it. I can be a real pain when I have to be. Also, I know several teachers who left or were fired from pubic schools who are now teaching in well-respected private schools. A little food for thought there perhaps…

Again, I have to say as a teacher, that public school is what it is IN PART because of the demands of the public, hence the name PUBLIC school. Maybe if we were as unwilling to change as we used to be and didn’t listen to all the demands of the public, our scores would be where they used to be. The critics are many, and the more we try to answer to them, the worse we seem to get. Makes me wonder sometimes where we’re headed as a system.

By Laura

October 27, 2005 03:32 PM | Link to this

It’s not just my kid. Kids leave our “exemplary” public school every year because the parents are disgusted with the public school experience - the ineffectual principal, the weak teachers, the high stakes testing, the disruptive classmates, the beyond nutty other parents, the wasted time, the confusion, the lack of communucation between school and home, the lack of supervision, the kids falling between the cracks, the overwhelming homework, the focus on sports, the playground bullying, the pressure to medicate (reading recovery teacher) or not medicate (1st grade teacher).

There’s a lot wrong.

By RF

October 27, 2005 03:36 PM | Link to this

I tend to agree Laura. We’re far from perfect in the public schools, but think about what got us there. The blame goes all over doesn’t it? How is it, in your opinion, that private schools seem to do it so much better? I’m not being sarcastic, I honestly want to know.

By Kym

October 28, 2005 01:02 PM | Link to this

I how many complaining parents actually come to school board meetings, or vote in school board elections? How many parents really go to the PTA and hold the school administrators and themselves accountable? We all know there is a problem, so how do we fix it. RF is right some people will not be happy no matter what solutions we come up with. You have the ones saying it cost to much, or it is taking away too much relaxation time. As a whole our education system in the US sucks by comparison to schools else where in the world. Yet we dont show at elections, or board meetings. However, we have complaints by the dozens. Sad state of affairs if you ask me.

By nancy

November 1, 2005 01:24 PM | Link to this

What a sad, sad state we have let our children get into. In an age of everyone having equal rights, we have let children have equal rights. What this has turned into is the chldren ruling the families and schools. In an age of litigation and suits right and left, we have taken away any authority that adults have. I speak particularly of the schools. Society has taken away all rights and authority from the teachers. The classrooms have children that are out of control (one shook his rear at the teacher and told her to “Kiss my A..”). The schools (teachers, administration, and county level) are so aftaid of who may sue, that nothing is done about children who are wild animals. The parents have abdicated their responsibilities in making children behave. In our efforts to “pick your battles,” parents have given up every battle. We have 5 year olds who do not know how to listen to any authority. They are not afraid of any punishment. I think because none ever really comes. We hear parents saying, “I just don’t know what to do with him/her!” Then they send the little hellions to school and won’t let the teachers do anything with the children who desperately need discipline. I am afraid for the future of our country. How are these children going to grow into responsible adults if they have never been made responsible for their actions? We are losing some of our best teachers, because they know that they are better than being cursed and hit, with no repercussion and no one in authority having the backbone to stand-up to the children and their parents (and their lawyers). We have reached a sad, sad, state.

By Bruno

November 2, 2005 11:04 AM | Link to this

Here we are debating “attitudes”, funding, rights, etc. etc.

Education is no different than cars or groceries. If it must be publicly funded, there is no reason on earth for it to be publicly “produced”.

If an “educated populace” is your goal, then there is no intellectually sound argument against school choice.

Let people’s attitudes be manifested in their choices

By Ivory

November 2, 2005 12:54 PM | Link to this

Why not have more focused technical programs for students who aren’t going to college?

Why not indeed! With the workforce shortages in allied health and the high wages that can be earned in healthcare, it’s a shame more people aren’t directed that way.

By Bill

November 2, 2005 02:54 PM | Link to this

Although I share most of your observations I will limit my comments to your proposition that perhaps education should be considered a privilege that can be taken away. For some time I have wondered what the difference would be if we as an American society would accept the notion that education is not a right but a national responsibility…a responsibility that must be assumed by every citizen. Perhaps if our society changed in this way we would witness the changes in our school cultures. Think about this…each citizen bears the responsibility to further their education because our society depends on successive generations to continue to provide for a vibrant nation’s economy.