Get Schooled

By jim dumond

October 20, 2005 08:40 AM | Link to this

Let’s face it; test results while providing information as to areas we need to focus attention will never be an accurate measurement of a student’s true ability. There are too many variables standardized testing fails to take into consideration. Just little things like a child’s social and economic background, the mental state of the child on the given test day, and with teacher incentives based on test results—a teachers temptation to teach to the test rather than providing a well rounded education. So while I quite often have fun with the numbers, poking at the establishments asinine attempts to place all students squarely into a box, I rarely place much stock in standardized test results and would caution others from doing so.

By Kym

October 20, 2005 09:08 AM | Link to this

I agree with Jim. Teachers don’t focus on teaching the theory, they teach the test. As the mother of a 4th grader, I want my son to know more than just the test, I want him to understand the concepts. Each night we go over his homework until I am sure he understands what he is learning, not just having the right answers. I think teachers, administrators, and even parents sometimes focus more on the test scores and less on teaching. CRCT and NAEP scores mean nothing if the children in the schools are not making progress in learning and retaining information.

By oldteacher

October 20, 2005 09:11 AM | Link to this

What schools in Georgia take this test? I think that could make a big difference in the scores.

By RF

October 20, 2005 09:20 AM | Link to this

Kym- to some extent you’re right. We teachers must teach the theory and skill involved, but in the background is the ever-present “test monster”. I know in my own classroom, I daily have to remind myself to “teach beyond” the test, but I’m always mindful of what test skills are being covered. We’re under so much pressure to make sure we address tested skills that teachers quite often focus on those, which address the concepts and theories, but often without time to mention the theories. It’s a quandry we have to deal with daily, and if you are in a “needs improvement” school, you are almost forced to feed those tested skills to them daily. As a parent, I too make sure I go beyond just finishing homework, and look for application of the learning for my sons. That’s what we have to do as parents.

By Karen Armsby

October 20, 2005 09:33 AM | Link to this

Georgia schools should use any testing to see where an individual student is failing or lacking and then put him or her in a remedial program. But it is my understanding that all they use testing for is to publish results to brag about or downward trends that they try to zen some weird reason as the cause.

I have said countless times in these blogs that GOOD READING SKILLS are the key to learning. The better the reader, the better the student, in all subjects. Elementary schools need to focus primarily on the good old fashioned reading, writing, and arithmetic, and make sure every student has the basic skills or more, before moving out of the lower grades.

By Lee Hadden

October 20, 2005 09:52 AM | Link to this

Perhaps what the children are asked to read is boring, and the test only relates to their level of boredom and disinterest. The answer is simple. Hire J. K. Rowling or Lemony Snicket to write the reading portion of the tests. Kids actually like what they write, and will actually pay to read what they write as well. Put an extra Harry Potter or Unfortunate Family story in the reading test, and kids will do better, and will look forward to taking the tests.

By Bubba

October 20, 2005 10:12 AM | Link to this

The NAEP is to give an assessment of the nation’s and state’s achievement levels, not indivdual school districts or schools. The students are basically randomly chosen from about 100 randomly selected schools in each state. Approximately 2500 students per grade are selected. This works out to about 25 kids randomly selected per grade from each of 100 schools. This yields a much better state to state comparison than the SAT scores where I believe North Dakota comes out on top although only about 200 kids in the entire state take the SAT. Many more kids in North Dakota take the ACT. ND ranks 25th in the US on the ACT. Using SAT or ACT scores to compare states is not a valid way to do it. The NAEP is much better. Using the NAEP, it looks like Georgia is in the middle. Among white students, Georgia’s scores tied with 5 states (MI, ID, MO, SD, UT). Georgia scored higher than 21 states and lower than 23. Among African-American students, Georgia’s students tied with New Jersey and scored higher than 20 other states and lower than 20 other states. Nine states didn’t have enough black students to make a valid sample. We’ve got work to do and improvement to make but Georgia does not appear to be last in education.

By Bubba

October 20, 2005 10:14 AM | Link to this

the NAEP state score comparisons I used were 4th grade scores. I haven’t looked at the 8th grade scores yet.

By Dan

October 20, 2005 10:35 AM | Link to this

People can pontificate all they want about not placing kids in a box, and teaching to the test or not and the myriad of other variables that makes testing inaccurate. Well first of all, it is simply A measurement not THE measurement. Second and most importantly while there are obviously exceptions to the rule (to any rule) There is a significant positive correlation between test scores and success in future schools and work.

By RF

October 20, 2005 10:36 AM | Link to this

Bubba—the question here is this: will the ever-complaining critics of education ever believe this? Will these scores be on the news like SAT scores? I doubt it. It doesn’t paint the negative picture of our state that everyone want to believe and use as ammo for the “benefits of private and hom-schools” montra. I’m glad to see a score comparison that puts us somewhere besides last place!

By Bubba

October 20, 2005 10:56 AM | Link to this

RF - the critics will try to manipulate the data to fit their own agenda and no this probably won’t be a prominent story in the AJC or talk radio like the SAT results are … Yet I still think it is important to try to get information out there, if you tell two people and they tell two people, etc.
In general, the media wants to get people’s attention and bad news does that better than good news. I give credit to Patti Ghezzi for starting this forum and keeping it running, hopefully this may help lead to a more complete picture of what is going on in education. There is always room for improvement, in education as well as journalism, and it is more likely to happen when there is a high degree accuracy in assessments and perceptions.

By Kym

October 20, 2005 11:01 AM | Link to this

RF-I guess I am one of those parents who is looking at the negative of the test scores. My son came from a school on the northern side of Fulton county to a school on the southern side of Fulton county. Huge!! difference in education and the test scores from the most recent CRCT test show that gap. Now I am looking at private schools in the area.

By RF

October 20, 2005 11:08 AM | Link to this

Kym- There are some good elementary schools down there, but I would definitely avoid the middle and high schools. There just doesn’t seem to be much effective leadership at those levels in south Fulton. I grew up there and my parents still live in the area. You have to take into account that the south end of the county has traditionally been poorer and more rural. That’s changing with the exploding growth, but it will be a few years before we see any results from the upswing in real estate. Look at Arlington Christian School and Woodward Academy. Those are two very good schools. Also, if you are close the Coweta line in extreme south Fulton, consider Heritage Academy in Newnan. South Fulton is headed towards improvement, but they’ve only just in the last few years begun to attract the families that will demand better in the schools.

By And the beat goes on...

October 20, 2005 11:36 AM | Link to this

So who’s afraid at the AJC of the Big Bad Wolf…Erate? You left out the most important question…”Where is the Erate story? Have the Buckhead Big Heads stepped in and squelched the story??…after all their companies made most of the money spent on over priced installations.

By Jake

October 20, 2005 11:59 AM | Link to this

I agee with Cox, what’s a few percentage points mean anyway? What’s important is we keep those field trips coming so at least the kids will be well rounded and proficient in liberal arts.

By CD

October 20, 2005 12:34 PM | Link to this

I think that as a parent, I would not blame the teachers and the schools. We should blame ourselves and spend more time with our kids reading and make reading a priority and more fun instead of games, or TV. Kids bring their skills to school. Why don’t we make our kids read more and also understand what they are reading? We should be our children teachers before anyone.

By Leia

October 20, 2005 12:47 PM | Link to this

CD - Thank you! I could not agree with you more. Model good habits at home, and your children will emulate them. Let them see you reading. Take them to a library and check out books. Be a proactive parent.

By Jake

October 20, 2005 12:58 PM | Link to this

Hey Patti can tomorrow’s blog address the ‘flabby science curriculum’ and ‘too few qualified teachers’ noted on today’s editorial page? As Bubba pointed out above, the NAEP numbers are right in the middle of the pack, once you take the racial diferences into account.

By david200

October 20, 2005 01:36 PM | Link to this

What Jake said!! I particularly liked the assumption by editors with degrees in journalism that they knew what is wrong in the science classes. I guess I can see their point. They went to school; therefore, they are experts in schooling. That’s right; isn’t it?

By RF

October 20, 2005 02:06 PM | Link to this

david200—ever since we elected a peanut farmer president, everyone thinks he or she is an expert. Well, you know what they say about opinions and butts…:-)

By SWC

October 20, 2005 03:13 PM | Link to this

A message to the autocrats who blog here, From the NAEP story:

“States that have ratcheted up punishment for individual students … don’t appear to be doing any better than the national average and, in many cases, are falling further behind,” said Bob Schaeffer, public education director for the advocacy group the National Center for Fair & Open Testing.”

As I’ve been saying - punishment doesn’t work! But hey, give them an IQ test before you let them leave the school building.

A true story from my son’s First grade class in South Carolina (top performing school, mostly middle/upper middle with a few “rural” students:

He poignantly described a little black girl in his class who he felt terribly sorry for, and even shed tears for. They had quite rigorous homework every night that I found required parental guidance, at least to get them started. This little girl never finished her homework - apparently her mother was non compos mentis, or high.

What did the school do? She was punished! How? She was NEVER able to have recess. They made her sit outside and watch the other kids. The result? She was miserable, began to hate school, hate authority, hate life. Her future? Miserable! Bleak! A burden to society!

What should they have done? Helped her!! But no, even 6 year old children MUST learn responsibility and they MUST be punished even if, through no fault of their own, they didn’t do or finish their homework.

Did her test scores improve because they took away her recess? OF COURSE NOT!

You can say that “life isn’t fair”, but it is not necessary to be cruel to children to send that message.

By luvs2teach

October 20, 2005 04:57 PM | Link to this

SWC - terrible story - high-performing doesn’t have to mean heartless - it’s a shame that the child’s mother wasn’t more involved, because if my child were sitting out recess for any reason I’d be there in a minute either dealing with my child or dealing with the teacher. That’s archaic.

On topic, I trust the NAEP assessment for the most part. My only reservation has to do with the the fact that the students who take it know that it doesn’t mean anything for them personally - no stakes. There are children who will blow it because they don’t care, are uninterested, or feel an opportunity to “get back” at the school.

My school has been chosen several times, and the kids ask me, “What’s this test for?” “Is it for a grade?” “Does it count?” - I have heard kids say that they “just guessed” or “didn’t care.” I don’t know how the NAEP accounts for that.

We need to start looking at the big picture - not just the CRCT. Example: Cobb County, which got “Needs Improvement” on AYP passed SACS accredidation with flying colors, and had SAT scores higher than the national average!

Tests are snapshots - how many bad pictures have you ever taken?

By Jim Dumond

October 24, 2005 08:11 AM | Link to this

When judging schools it might behoove us to remember Albert Einstein’s challenge. Einstein wrote, “Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count…everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted.â€? Perhaps then we could apply this same logic to standardized tests.

By Karen Armsby

October 24, 2005 10:08 AM | Link to this

I am not a teacher, but from the comments of a lot of teachers in these blogs it appears to me that too much material is presented too quickly and for the purpose of teaching to the standardized tests, which are largely testing recitation of facts.

In my humble opinion ‘education’ should first require a firm foundation in the basics of reading, writing, and math skills, then introduce students to scientific methodology, research, hypothesis and analysis, then require that they read broadly in history, the humanities, and arts.

Teach the students how to draw conclusions and inferences from their reading, how to research and most importantly how to question authority and think critically. If a student can read well and think critically, and has a good vocabulary then he is educated. We have computers and and the internet, tools that allow us to research in seconds. Students don’t need to memorize all the facts, they just need to be able to read quickly and well, and digest and research and draw conclusions from their reading.