Get Schooled

By Dan

October 14, 2005 08:13 AM | Link to this

A question to teachers, Now I understand some people have more of an affinity for math than others but it seems to me that the underlying objectivity of math should result in less variation of curriculum. As far as “teaching to the test” shouldn’t math be easier when compared to the relatively subjective verbal

By HSTeach

October 14, 2005 08:14 AM | Link to this

Yeah, it’s amazing…I have 9th graders who can’t add or subtract (in a few seconds, give them enough paper and about 5 minutes and they can solve a 3 digit addition problem)….don’t even ask about mult. and div… I blame the fact that Georgia does not have a good enough remediation program for students who don’t perform well in ANY subject K-5. If they don’t get it, even if they fail the CRCT, they are “placed” in the next grade…as long as the “try” the re-take or have a meeting w/ the principal….once in the next grade, as far as I know, there are no attempts to regain the information or re-hash the math/reading/writing skills they never learned…..so of course our numbers are down…our high schools are full of kids who can’t do simple math!!!

By Alice

October 14, 2005 08:29 AM | Link to this

Some of this is defintely related to the curriculum in Georgia. Last year, my middle schooler and elementary schooler were working on the same concepts. Of course, the older one had more complicated material, but still. We try to cover too much material which forces teachers to move on before students have mastered the material. Perhaps the new performance standards will help, but I have friends who say that the model that Kathy Cox adopted has been tried and abandoned by many other states. YUCK!

By oldteacher

October 14, 2005 08:33 AM | Link to this

We have asked for math remediation programs in our school but the request seems to fall on deaf ears. We take the kids who made a marginal score in reading and LA and remediate them, but not those in math. The only answer we get is that there is not enough money to hire another teacher.

By jakesdad

October 14, 2005 09:10 AM | Link to this

I do not know why GA is an anomoly in the verbal/math trends but the basic problem with education across the board is cultural: it’s “cool” to be stupid and profoundly “uncool” to be smart. kids want to “be like Mike” (pardon me showing my age) or the rapper du jour instead of people like Alan Turing or Linus Torvalds (yes, I realize they weren’t mathematicians; o.k., how about Ron Rivest, Adi Shamir, and Leonard Adleman?). the whole reason we end up with things like “predatory lending” laws is because people can’t do basic math (sorry, but amortizations are NOT advanced math).

By scruggs

October 14, 2005 09:23 AM | Link to this

Being just an interested observer and not an expert, I would say that math builds on itself more than the verbal side. You may work on spelling in the early years, but if you’re a bad speller it still might not greatly impact your reading comprehension. On the math side, if in the early years you don’t grasp the fundamentals, you are stuck once you get to high school level math where they should be second nature. This is my second year tutoring a h.s. student (first in geometry now in algebra II), and he can do the most difficult problems, but constantly fails to execute the simpler steps (order of operations/PEMDAS, etc) and thus gets the problems wrong.

I think another issue with math is that, in the high school years, it is very important to have teachers who have backgrounds/degrees in math. They should be very comfortable with the material and can just focus on teaching it rather than “re-learning” it. However, math is one subject where you’re less likely to teachers with actual math degrees. There are too many other career opportunities out there to compete with that can be lucrative.

By Gina

October 14, 2005 09:52 AM | Link to this

scruggs is correct. Our children are not learning the basics - you have to be able to do mental arithmetic and do it quickly and accurately. There is no drilling of math facts anymore. I was told that there is “no time” - it must be done at home. Well ok, but what about those kids who don’t have parental support? Some children pick up the math facts quickly, others struggle to learn them. I think the more practice the better. Why does the curriculum deal with 5 different methods of estimation when half the class doesn’t know the multiplication tables? If you can’t do basic arithmetic, you can’t understand fractions. If you can’t manipulate fractions, there is no way you will be able to learn algebra.

Is it any wonder there are Kumon centers popping up all over town?

By Ernest

October 14, 2005 10:04 AM | Link to this

Part of the reason for math weaknesses can be attributed to a lack of qualified teachers. Everyone is aware that the demand for for teachers skilled in technical sciences and math is high while the supply is low. I’m curious from the teachers that participate in this blog as to how much math was required to get your degree. I personally know a few elementary teachers who indicated math was there worse subject when they were in school and only took the minimum required.

When algebra was instilled for all 8th graders in DeKalb last year, we found out we didn’t have enough qualified teachers. Partly due to this, we had MANY students fail algebra.

One needs to use different analogies in explaining various math concepts for the learners to be successful. If one cannot draw on those when needed, it becomes a challenge for both the students and teachers.

By Larry

October 14, 2005 10:17 AM | Link to this

I agree with everyone. Moreover, the teacher to student ratio in math classes, particularly in my 9th grader’s high school, is too cumbersome as well, averaging 1-30+. Even the tutoring classes after school have the same basic ratio. So far, Kumon as a supplement to the after-school tutoring that my 9th grader receives has shown little impact. I, too, am supremely frustrated, and I am concerned that my feelings of helplessness are starting to become obvious and distracting to my kid. Any suggestions from the “experts” would be greatly appreciated.

By Terrance

October 14, 2005 10:20 AM | Link to this

Ernest hit it on the nail.

Elementary teachers take little math, so it shows.

High School Math teachers are usely more than adequate at their craft. However, we find ourselves with kids who need a lot of the basics, because they lack it the most.

By Robert

October 14, 2005 10:21 AM | Link to this

Question: what is the State doing with all of the money now in the treasury? Why don’t they spend on education? Increase teacher salary to attract better teachers. Hire more teachers to reduce class sizes.

Teachers have been given very small increases in salary for the past 5 or so years - not even keeping up with the cost of living/rate of inflation. Yet Georgia is expected to be able to attract good teachers? Just doesn’t make sense.

By oldteacher

October 14, 2005 10:21 AM | Link to this

I totally agree with the lack of qualified teachers. I am not a math person and would never try to teach math. My biggest concern is that our school, we have two teachers who have taken the math Praxix II twice and failed it both times. They are still teaching math.

By Gina

October 14, 2005 10:23 AM | Link to this

Ernest, While I agree that a lack of qualified teachers is part of the problem, I also believe this idea of having all eighth graders take algebra is ridiculous. My son had eighth grade algebra last year with a highly qualified teacher. This was standard algebra - the best students in the school were in honors algebra. Only 3 students out of a class of 25 were given the go ahead to take geometry in ninth grade. The rest have to repeat it. Was this because of the teacher? No. The students were not ready to learn algebra. An inability to add, subtract, multiply and divide fractions with ease is the problem!

By jakesdad

October 14, 2005 10:24 AM | Link to this

scruggs is correct in that math builds on itself (or more precisely new theorms are almost always based on existing ones). I also agree that there is probably a shortage of “good” math teachers but I’m not sure how strong the correlation is between strength/depth of math education and effectiveness as a teacher. I like to think I’m reasonably good at math (>700 math on old SAT) but I absolutely STUNK as a tutor because it was so intuitive to me. a teacher obviously needs a mastery of the subject at the level they are teaching but I would MUCH rather my kids have a teacher who understands algebra and has good “teaching” skills than one who can solve differential equations but has the communication skills of an artichoke (like many of my professors at GT). just my 2c…

By Swangirl

October 14, 2005 10:29 AM | Link to this

I agree with the others who have posted that if you don’t nail down the fundamentals in the early years, it’s a set up for failure in the upper grades. I managed to get through my math classes okay until I got to seventh grade. That’s when I hit the wall and it got really hard. After that, I made low Bs in math (just barely) while making As in everything else. I am definitely more of a word person, with writing/editing being my profession.

If I hadn’t had at least a good grounding in math in those early years, I know my GPA would have sunk like a rock and I wouldn’t have even gotten the Bs I received.

I feel very sorry for the kids who struggle in math now because I remember how it feels to be in a room full of students and feel like I was the only one not catching on.

By Nancy

October 14, 2005 10:30 AM | Link to this

I was struck dumb by Gina’s statement, “…what about those kids who don’t have parental support?” What about them?

I am confounded that you apparently think that is a school or math problem. You have just exposed the principle reason our children are doing so poorly in Georgia public schools. Why don’t they have parental support? The parents had the kids so how is it the public school systems’ responsibility to raise them? The schools give them the tools and it is the parent’s responsibility to see that they use and learn them. And don’t give me any crap about the hardship of both parents working. My parents both worked full-time jobs and still sat with us each night to see that we were understanding our studies. They considered it THEIR responsibility. It also meant that we didn’t have any excuse not to study.

Our children aren’t learning because parents aren’t taking responsibility for their part of the learning process and making it a priority.

Plan your work and work your plan.

By Karen Armsby

October 14, 2005 10:30 AM | Link to this

I agree with scruggs and Gina. We don’t need a new math curriculum or better teachers in the primary grades at least. We need the students to memorize and be drilled in addition and subtraction facts, to learn multiplication times tables and drill them till they can do them in their sleep. They need to learn long division and fractions without calculator backups! THEN they can move onto more abstract concepts.

By Ernest

October 14, 2005 10:38 AM | Link to this

Gina, I understand your point and believe we could have a ‘philosophical’ debate on this. I bring biases because I’ve had succcesses in math and may be a ‘little’ arrogant in believing everyone should take more rigorous math courses early. I’ve seen the reality that this may not be the right decision.

Studies have shown that those who take higher level math courses do better on standardized tests. Part of the push for Algebra in the eight grade was to hopefully create a larger pool of students who were capable of taking Calculus by their senior yet. Hence, the expectation was a ‘bootstrap’ effect in pulling up the overall math scores. Despite so many students not doing well, we now see more students taking Geometry in the 9th grade.

FWIW, I understand DeKalb may have been ahead of the curve because I ‘think’ the state may make Algebra a requirement in the eighth grade in a few years. Perhaps our blogmistress or someone in the know could comment on this.

By Karen Armsby

October 14, 2005 10:42 AM | Link to this

Nancy, I understood Gina to say that teachers don’t drill the math facts in class anymore, like they did when I went to school, or even my kids when they were in elementary 10-15 years ago. When I was in elementary school in the 1950’s we had competitions in class drilling addition and subtraction, and times tables. I can remember long minutes at the blackboard doing long division problems.

I think Gina is saying that the teachers are not reinforcing any of this in class anymore. So the kids whose parents don’t drill them at home, they are lost!

By Laura

October 14, 2005 10:46 AM | Link to this

We lost ground in math when rote memorization became a bad thing. If teachers Drill and Kill then that is considered a bad teaching method. Kids don’t know basic math facts. How do kids memorize math facts when they spend all their time working on concepts and word problems? How can you teach division if you don’t know your multiplication tables by heart? Yet, the curriculum just keeps moving forward.

By college professor

October 14, 2005 10:54 AM | Link to this

Nancy is absolutely correct. As long as over worked and under paid teachers and over taxed property owners bear the entire responsibility for educating today’s youth, public schools will fail. Parents must fulfill their responsibility—and don’t give me the ultra pee in the pants liberal litany of excuses about work, child care, or transportation as to why parents, especially poor parents, can’t do it. The culture of “Parents can’t because,” must change to “Parents must because.” A big part of the solution is mandatory parental involvement in their child’s education.

By Dan

October 14, 2005 10:58 AM | Link to this

Wow I have never seen so much agreement in one of these blogs. The drilling and the basics seem to be whats missing, I think that can be handled via curriculum. You don’t need to be a math major to teach elementary math.

By Karen Armsby

October 14, 2005 11:00 AM | Link to this

Today’s teenagers cannot do long division without a calculator, cannot figure out what your change should be without their cash register telling them, and don’t know what a percent means. And we want them to be introduced to more abstract concepts earlier?

I have my third grade math book from 1959, full of endless multiplication and division problems. And even today I can multiply or divide any set of two digit numbers in my head! Amazing, but true!

The math teachers need to return to a simpler regimen of math basics and drill, drill, drill.

By Gina

October 14, 2005 11:12 AM | Link to this

Nancy and college professor - you misunderstand me. I’m not sticking up for the people who treat the schools as a day care center. I am disturbed at the direction math education has taken over the years. To NEVER drill math facts in school and assume that will be done at home is ludicrous. Yes, parents have a responsibility to reinforce the lessons taught and to help their children practice.

I have 3 kids - 2 mathmatically gifted who seemed to learn their math facts overnight and 1 who struggled over the years. I wish I had known about Kumon when he was in elementary school - the so called “drill and Kill” were exactly what he needed - by middle school it was almost too late - but it helped him tremendously.

The base needs to be built at the elemetary level. I support the effort to have more kids taking Calculus in high school Ernest - but if they haven’t built the strong base, they’ll never get past algebra.

By Swangirl

October 14, 2005 11:24 AM | Link to this

I can remember learning my times tables in fourth grade and we did drill/kill until everybody in my class had it down. It worked for us.

Funny, what really helped me was this audio tape or record that our teacher used that had a song about the different times tables. It was a silly song but it stuck in my head. Even now, I can still remember the last part about 12 X 12 is 144!

By Brian

October 14, 2005 11:24 AM | Link to this

Math? Our Cobb County Schools have our students using calculators without having first attained the basics of math. After a brief try at teaching math skills, the schools require all students to bring a calculator as part of their daily equipment. Math skills have to be learned, and they also have to be used. My middle school son showed me he could use a calculator, but when I asked him for the product of 7 * 8 I received no less than 4 wrong answers. Why is everyone so surprised our children don’t know math?

By scruggs

October 14, 2005 11:24 AM | Link to this

oldteacher, I’ve wondered how one’s performance on the Praxis II exam impacts teachers (besides certification). I guess not much from your post. I have my undergrad and grad (joint with education component) degrees in math and enjoyed the teaching and tutoring I did back in the day. I have always assumed I’d leave the corporate world at some point and teach (when my kid(s) are a little older and I can stomach giving up a very nice income). So, I signed up for this past August’s Praxis II (0061) and took it cold. Got a 161, passing is 136 (I think Miss. and Ark are roughly 120). It concerned me that I can land in the 83rd percentile without seeing any of the material in almost 10 years, but folks coming right out of their degree programs struggle. I estimate I probably answered 70-75% of the questions correctly, so passing means maybe only needing to get 50-60% right. That should be doable for any math major.

Even your above average students lack the necessary fundamentals. At the top 25ish university where I attended and taught, approx. 25% of the incoming freshmen placed into the “remedial” math course, College Algebra. This is basically high school Algebra II, III, and Trig.

There is so much emphasis on coming up with these engaging and creative lessons vs the boring lecture, and I feel its tougher to teach math this way and still cover all of the topics. Yes, I could use an entire class to play a cutsy game to construct the relation of the circumference of a circle to its diameter. Or, I can tell you C=pi*d in 5 seconds and work on applying that knowledge.

As for calculators, they can be a great teaching tool, but I fear reliance on them overshadows the concepts behind what they can calculate and graph. This really impacts one who wants to study math in college where its a little more “old school” and theoretical.

By jakesdad

October 14, 2005 11:26 AM | Link to this

o.k., I’m sorry to keep going on but I just remembered this story and HAVE to share it:

back in ‘95 I was at Perimeter Mall at lunch (worked across street at time) and ended up wandering into the watch/clock store down by Rich’s (at the time). they had a promo sign at the entrance saying “25% off Timex” so I proceeded to look at a “DataLink” watch (read barcodes off a CRT, pre-PDA). The tag said $80 so I said “so it would be $60, right?” to which the guy replied “I don’t know, let me check…” and proceeded to reach for a calculator. as surprised as I was that he needed a calculator I was completely unprepared for what he said next: “no, it will only be $55”. stunned, I replied “well, I probably shouldn’t argue with you but I’m pretty sure 25% off $80 is $60”. he clicked on the calculator again then held it up so I could see it and said “no, see, $55…” at which point I shrugged and bought it (for $55). as I was walking through the mall I was less excited about the extra $5 than I was confused how he could have come up with that number. then it came to me: 80 - 25% of 80 (20) is 60 but 80 - 25 (as opposed to 25%) is (you guessed it) 55…

I know this sounds like an urban legend but may I get hit by a meteor if I’m making it up. tell me this society isn’t screwed…

By Kayla Amos- real, live, concerned high school student

October 14, 2005 11:28 AM | Link to this

Do you really want to know why Georgia students never seem to obtain those awe-inspiring test scores, or even decent grades in school? It’s because of a lack of interest! Beginning in elementary school, we need to do something to get kids interested in the core subject areas. If young students could develop an early love for just one of the core subjects, math, science, social studies and language arts, think of the improvement the state could make on SAT, ACT and especially AP scores. It’s a proven fact that kids learn best when they are enjoing what is being taught. For example, look at the most successful childrens’ shows on television such as Sesame Street, Dora the Explorer, Blue’s Clues- all of these shows are educating kids and building their logic skills, and they don’t even realize it because they’re having FUN!

Now, understanably, teachers cannot possibly make every aspect of school fun, which is understandable. How in God’s name can calculus ever be enjoyable? However, another way the state could improve education is through parents. Parents, do yourself an favor when your kids are young; don’t buy yet another useless, annoying toy, which you know for a fact won’t be played with two months from now, and will end up giving you a headache sometime in the next two hours.Instaed, buy the kid a book, a notebook where they can write a a story or draw a picture! Read to them, play an educational game with them- take an interest in their education! Also, don’t hold low academic standards for your child! Accepting anything lower than a B is unacceptable parenting in my opinion. Eventually, your child will accept this as the best he or she can do when in all actuality, it’s not! There should be at least a moderate punishment until grades aer brought up. If your child is weak in some area, work with them!

By VW

October 14, 2005 11:44 AM | Link to this

In my opinion, I don’t think the kids are mature enough to handle some of the concepts that they are being taught. Before I get ten million opposing blogs, let me explain.

One example: In today’s times, students are being taught (well, told) the multiplication facts beginning in about second grade. They don’t understand why they have to multiply or what the purpose of multiplication is. Back in the early 1980’s when I was in FIFTH grade, we were taught the multiplication facts and were expected to master them in TWO weeks. We, in the high achievers class, mastered them in two weeks because we were mature enough to understand the concept. When we got eighth grade, we took pre-algebra. Some of us who were more advanced, took algebra. By the way, back then, Georgia was not at the bottom of the heap.

What am I trying to say? I think that we are forcing our students to learn too much too soon. When I was in kindergarten, I didn’t have homework. I didn’t get homework until about the second grade. Now, first graders are expected to be able to diagram sentences. I am not kidding!! My first grade son had an assignment the other night on finding simple subjects in sentences. It is no wonder that kids still don’t know when they get to fourth grade because they were not mature enough to understand in first grade!

Check, compare, and contrast Georgia’s results from the 80’s to the last ten years’ results. Factor in the new curriculum changes and do the math (no pun intended).

By David

October 14, 2005 11:45 AM | Link to this

I wonder how many parents with K-3rd grade students have flash cards (they are easy to make) and “play” number games with their children?

They are great tools for developing basic number skills in children. These skills can be the foundation for school teachers to built upon.

By SWC

October 14, 2005 11:51 AM | Link to this

The curriculum and teaching methods are a huge factor. My son’s experience is a good case in point - hang in with me and I think you’ll understand part of the problem:

Last year, in 5th grade he was in advanced math (taking 6th grade math). Not only does he get great math grades, but his ITBS scores were off the charts. His teacher (new to the school system) RACED through the curriculum during the first semester. She would spend ONE day on complicated concepts like “order of operations”. They would get homework every night, and then had to do corrections plus more homework the next night. Well, that is all fine and dandy if you give the child time to grasp the concept, but in his case (and I soon discovered he was not alone) one day was not long enough to “get it”. It soon became a nightmare, where the students were falling asleep at their desks and then setting their alarm for 5:00 am to try and finish their homework with all the INEVITABLE corrections from the night before. I got a note from his teacher who said that he was “only selectively paying attention in class”. Mind you, my son LOVES and ADORES math. He very quickly began to absolutely DREAD it.

I called my nephew who is brilliant at math and attended The Dalton School in NYC which is one of The Top schools in the country (i.e. about 12 kids a year go to Harvard from there, just to name 1 top school). He is now living in Maine and is taking 10th grade math in 8th grade (they let them do that there -ahem). I asked him how much time he spent learning Order of Operations. His answer? At least a week, just to start, but of course you use it all the time, so you never stop using it.

I called a few parents to ask if their children were having difficulty, to which I received a resounding, “yes!”. Many of them worked at the school so they had to keep their mouths zipped. I wrote a letter to the teacher, asking her why it was necessary to zip through the curriculum at the speed of light. I told her that if my son was not paying attention, it was because he was exhausted, his mind was overloaded with information overload, and that she needed to SLOW down. She claimed that this was all “review material” and that they were supposed to have learned this in 4th grade. I told her that while they may have been briefly introduced to some of these concepts, they did not “learn” it and since this was true for the entire class, she had better slow down. She never admitted it and insisted that it was my sons fault for being a daydreamer and lazy, but she did slow down and cut back on the homework. My son ended up with a 96 average for the year and they covered the curriculum fully.

Move on to this year! 6th grader taking advanced/7th grade math. Now its too easy! Its been nothing but review and right now he has a 98 average but without any effort. The teacher (who is wonderful) told the students that the problem is that half the “advanced” students covered this material last year, BUT half of them didn’t. She is now going to separate out the advanced plus kids from the ones who are behind, until they catch up.

If I understand it correctly, last year the curriculum was a “SPIRAL” method where they learn like little butterflies, alighting on a subject for a brief moment and then flying off to a new subject, only to return to the original subject at some point later. My opinion? An idiotic way to teach math! I saw a CSPAN program almost 12 years ago that talked about American versus Asian or European methods for teaching math. It said that ours is too broad and not deep enough, that in other countries they make darn well sure that the kids have mastered the basic skills. They also don’t overemphasize “estimating” or “sequencing” which are not the correct way to teach. Too much estimating sends a message that math is an inexact science, and the sequencing (i.e. 1,3,5,7, what comes next?) is often incorrect!

Now I believe that the curriculum is more of a building block method - a much better method IMHO, although there is a gap between last year and this year which needs to be filled. I hope I’m correct about this being the new curriculum.

Does this tale help explain anything?

By OldSchool

October 14, 2005 11:51 AM | Link to this

Jakesdad, I have just as astounding a story: A deli worker (recent hs grad) in our local grocery was asked by a customer how much ten pounds of the $6.95 a pound meat would cost. When I walked up, she was stacking various items on the scale (oven mitt, knives, box of sandwich papers, etc) trying to get it to ten pounds so she could tell the customer. If that wasn’t ridiculous enough, the customer was actually waiting on the results of her efforts. I just leaned over the counter and quietly shared that ten pounds would be $69.50 plus tax. Ah, the power of mental math skills!

Now, if MY students just came to me knowing what an inch was…

By Terrance

October 14, 2005 12:30 PM | Link to this

I think the teachers in High School are fine, I think we have great elementary and middle school teachers, but they don’t have a focus and math and nothing is being done to help them teach basics. I have taught a Algebra I class where at least 25% of the kids don’t know their time tables. Something is wrong with that

By Susan

October 14, 2005 12:37 PM | Link to this

I teach middle school and see the problem with math skills daily. A big part of this lack of basic skills comes from the number of skills the teachers are required teach each year. They can’t spend lots of time drilling basic facts. The other problem is that society/parents are so concerned that their child might be embarrassed if anyone notices they are slow on timed tests, working problems on the board, or giving answers aloud for math facts that doing it that way is not as general a practice as it once was. I remember having timed multiplication problems from a back page of my 4th grade math book. We had one minuted to tell the teacher as many answers as possible and we got a grade on it. We all practiced at home and wanted in the worst way to do well. Another thing that happens is that every summer kids lose a lot of ground because there isn’t practice at home on the skills they have been working on through the year. It’s not unusual for teachers to have to spend a good deal of time reteaching when school starts. Drill and memorization are the key to a lot of the problem that kids have. By the time kids hit 8th grade, there is no time for teachers to spend on reviewing basics. And as far as algebra for 8th graders goes, it is a BIG mistake to think all 8th graders are ready for algebra. Abstract reasoning doesn’t automatically develop on a student’s 13th birthday!

By Gina

October 14, 2005 12:48 PM | Link to this

I noticed the spiral madness in my son’s algebra textbook last year - rather than spend an entire unit on a subject and covering completely they touched on it, had a few problems (nowhere near the number of homework problems I would have every night in algebra), and moved on to another topic. Each topic was revisited multiple times as they spiralled through but I got the feeling that a lot of kids never caught on the first time.

And now the entire high school curriculum will be spiralled - isn’t that what “integrated math” is? A little bit of algebra, some geometry, some algebra II, some trig… rinse and repeat. I don’t have a lot of faith that this is such a great idea.

By oldteacher

October 14, 2005 12:57 PM | Link to this

The math curriculum where they touch on a few problems and then move on and come back again sounds a lot like the Saxon Math that was very popular in many states a few years ago.

By Taxpayer

October 14, 2005 12:57 PM | Link to this

I have a DeKalb student who was thrown into Algebra I last year without proper preparation in the lower grades. She was lucky because we have always taken the time to drill her on math, often making up for what she didn’t get in a particular grade. As many have noted, you can’t just herd eighth-graders into Algebra I because the school board thinks it’s a good idea. The whole math curriculum from kindergarten on needs to be retooled to prepare these kids. And while I’m at it, let me tell you that we have had firsthand experience with the power of memorization. It definitely works. Having our child memorize times tables and math rules — and then demonstrate that knowledge verbally and on paper — did the trick. Funny, I recall having to memorize this stuff when I was in school 100 years ago, and I passed every math class in high school and college. I guess those little games on the computer aren’t so helpful after all.

By Gina

October 14, 2005 01:05 PM | Link to this

oldteacher - I’m not that familiar with Saxon, but doesn’t that curriculum involve doing lots and lots of problems? Maybe spiralling works if implemented better, but my small intro to it was not positive.

By oldteacher

October 14, 2005 01:08 PM | Link to this

When our system used Saxon, the kids had lots of homework every night and the teachers were expected to cover a chapter a day.

By Chuck

October 14, 2005 01:11 PM | Link to this

I taught high school math for three years. The basics of math require drill and kill. It has to be done at school and at home. Administrators, several of whom are not math proficient, often frown on this method. Students repeat their multiplication tables one time and are then given a calculator. This is ridiculous. Do you think a basketball coach would discontinue practicing lay-ups after a player made one.

By jakesdad

October 14, 2005 01:17 PM | Link to this

“I have just as astounding a story” - OldSchool

um, no, you definitely win… ;-)

I don’t know whether to laugh hysterically or plant a garden to make sure we have a reliable food supply. did you ever see the episode of Frasier when Freddie learns that “Grandpa can’t do math in his HEAD?”? ROTFL

By Leia

October 14, 2005 01:30 PM | Link to this

I remember (a long, long time ago) having my elementary school teach say - “OK, it’s time for math now” as she rolled her eyes and sighed. We all received her message that math was bad. With teachers like this at the elementary level, how are the students supposed to learn to love, or at least appreciate math.

By the way - typically, parents think you are a wonderful teacher when their child is getting good grades, and you’re “rushing through the material” when Johnny’s grades start slipping.

By scruggs

October 14, 2005 01:35 PM | Link to this

Chuck, that’s really funny you bring up the layup analogy. The h.s. kid I tutor is on his basketball team. When he was over Wed. night, we reviewed his latest test. On a tough test, mistakes in basic calculations made the difference in dropping his grade from an A to a midrange B. I told him he’s nailing 50ft jumpers but can’t make his free throws!

By Dan

October 14, 2005 02:00 PM | Link to this

It’s funny this blog is a microcosm of the problem. It started with people suggesting the basics need to be hammered down, multiplication tables long division drill drill drill. Then slowly comments about happey kids learn better (cause and effect issue here but thats another debate) and kids in tough homes and this learning style ot that. All things that sound nice but mean diddley and take away from actual learning and responsibility. Thats how we got here in the first plac. Same could be said for most subjects, math is just a little easier to quantify.

By David200

October 14, 2005 02:24 PM | Link to this

I saw this last night, but this is the first chance I’ve had to blog.

1) I taught a student 6 years ago. Let’s just say she was deficient in math. She came from a “good family.” She took a science class with me and told me, “I’m not good in math.” as if that was an acceptable excuse. I told her she better get good at math if she wanted to pass my class. Her mother complained about me to the principal the entire year. She barely passed me with a 70. This individual wants to be an elementary teacher. She has taken college algebra at least twice at a tech school and at least once at her university and has yet to pass it. She will be getting her license soon. This is a problem. We have individuals who are deficient in math, teaching math to young kids.

2) A mathematician can make over $50k in the business world with nothing but a BS in Math and works with people with similar abilities. A BS in Education with a specialization in Math (5 less math courses) makes $28-35 and works with people that complain about them. And for some reason, we have a shortage of math teachers.

And we wonder why the math abilities in our students are low…

By SWC

October 14, 2005 02:32 PM | Link to this

Leia - Okay, you have just proved the point that I have been trying to make FOR DAYS about anti-parent remarks, only to be heaped with scorn. You said “By the way - typically, parents think you are a wonderful teacher when their child is getting good grades, and you’re “rushing through the materialâ€? when Johnny’s grades start slipping.”

Hmm, what makes me think that that was in response to my very reasonable story about what happened with my son?! I don’t recall anyone else making this point today. Do you think that ONE DAY is enough time to spend on “order of operations”? Tell me, how much time do you think should be spent on this? How about the multiplication tables?? One day? A week?

I supplied a factual example of how fast the teacher was going through the curriculum, and get a response snide comment about a spoiled parent of that proverbial spoiled child named “Johnny”.

Ironically, we’re told that we’re not spending enough time on rote learning (which I agree with), but when I suggest that a difficult concept takes more than one day, the suggestion is made that its my kids fault, not the teachers. BTW, I also stated that it was TOO EASY this year, so puhleese give me a break!

I feel like we are operating in aparallel universe sometimes!

GINA - Your comments are right on!! What a breath of fresh air…

By Math Teacher

October 14, 2005 02:37 PM | Link to this

Why are we forcing higher math on students when approximately 18% of our students will receive a degree from college? EDUCATION IS A JOKE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By me

October 14, 2005 02:41 PM | Link to this

SWC - Why are you making this blog about you again? Leia’s comment was not directed at you.

By Danielle

October 14, 2005 02:46 PM | Link to this

Music lessons, in school or private HELP math. Professionals agree that music helps children with math and science. Taking music out of school or providing fewer hours of music lessons has been one reason our math scores drop. I am a special ed. teacher. I play soft (classical) music in the background of my classes. It not only helps sooth the mood of the kids, but will help them with math. There is a study called Mozart Math. Today, children have so much overload with entertainment, they lack the ability to focus on one thing longer than 5 minutes. Especially when it gets to be in the abstract thinking. They are good kids. They just need some help. BUt the abstract ability needs to be developed early, by the 6th year or it’s almost too late.

By Phil

October 14, 2005 02:48 PM | Link to this

One of the primary reasons why Georgia students have such a hard time at math is due to the mishmash way it’s being taught. The concept I’ve heard bandied about is “mastery.” Our kids do not master anything before moving on to the next unit. “It will get re-inforced when they come back to it later on” is the response I commonly get. Folks, you can only reinforce what is learned in the first place. For us old timers, we don’t have to calculate 5+8 in our heads. Or 15+8 pr 15+28 and so on. Kids nowadays have not got the fundamentals ingrained and as a result, they actually have to add these sorts of figures each time they do it. You want to raise Georgia’s math scores FAST? Have kids do nothing but additiona, subtraction, multiplication, division, long division, and perhaps fractions in elementary school and nothing more. Then in middle school, with a true mastery of basic mathematical concepts, introduce them to geometry and alegebra. I didn’t do geometry until the 8th grade, and alegbra in 9th. SGet the basics down solid, and the rest will follow.

By oldteacher

October 14, 2005 02:51 PM | Link to this

Phil, what a wonderful suggestion! If they would just get the basics down, many, many problems would be solved. (Pun intended)

By luvs2teach

October 14, 2005 02:54 PM | Link to this

SWC and others - I agree that one day is not enough to cover order of operations (review or not). The curriculum is set up at a mind-numbing pace, and most new teachers are intimidated enough to try to follow that pace. What probably happened is that, after numerous questions from the kids, and complaints from the parents, and poor scores from the tests she gave, she realized that she needed to slow down, regardless of what the curriculum calendar said.

The four main problems as I see them is 1. not enough time on basic math facts - not to “skill and drill” them to death, but by 8th grade, you should be able to do math without using your fingers. 2. The curriculum itself - haven’t we learned anything from the “new math” fiasco of my generation? 3. Weak teachers in math - mainly in elementary school where they need to be strong. And finally, 4. Trying to have students learn material that their brain is simply not ready for - example, abstract learning required by Algebra.

PS. Only 1 or 2 anti-parent remarks, a couple anti-weak-teacher remarks (and mostly from OTHER TEACHERS) - most remarks were focused on the weak curriculum which is where the focus should be. Good for us!!

By davia

October 14, 2005 03:02 PM | Link to this

Regarding the shortage of math teachers… let me share why I did not become a math teacher… I enjoy math. I did well in my high school algebra and geometry courses (790 SAT Math)and began college with the intention of eventually teaching high school algebra or geometry. In order to get a math education degree, I had to take calculus courses (which had not been offered at my high school). For whatever reason, I could not “get” calculus. At all. I dropped the course halfway through and barely squeaked by with a C the second time around. The math education degree required 3 calculus courses. (don’t know if this is true for all colleges, just happened to be the case at mine) I changed my education field. No regrets, I found an area of teaching that I really enjoy and that I teach well. I’m just saying that if all math teachers need to take (and and do well in) 3 calculus courses just to teach Algebra and Geometry, it might deter a few potential teachers. And sure, there’s the argument that you need to know calculus because you never know if you’ll be required to teach it, but given the shortage of qualified teachers, consideration might be given to different routes/tracks within the math education program.

By high school teacher

October 14, 2005 03:07 PM | Link to this

Majoring in math or scoring a perfect score on the Math Praxis test does not make one a good teacher. A few years ago, we were excited when we got a new math teacher from Georgia Tech…

He could do the math very well (it being his major), but he couldn’t tell kids how to do it. He couldn’t manage his classes either. He left after a year in the profession.

The contradiction with several posts is that apparently we don’t spend enough time on the basics in the classroom, yet we are not qualified to teach math because we don’t have Math degrees. Since when does teaching multiplication tables require a degree in rocket science or mathematical theory?

By Karen Armsby

October 14, 2005 03:07 PM | Link to this

So if the math teachers are not as skilled as we need, why not return the math curriculum to simpler more effective repetitious lessons that even the less skilled teachers can teach?

By Leia

October 14, 2005 03:10 PM | Link to this

SWC - calm down. I honestly was not referring to you with my comments! It was just a remark on a blog. Everything is not about you.

Additionally, I teach Gifted/Honors Algebra II (10th grade) - and I teach order of operations for a day or two. I don’t spend much time on it because they’ve seen it time and time again. I can “save” time by zipping through this and spending more time on harder and more complex topics.

By SWC

October 14, 2005 03:23 PM | Link to this

luvs2teach - actually this was not the case of a new teacher. This teacher had years of experience but had taught at a higher grade level. I’ve had a similar ‘problem’ with a computer teacher who moved down from middle school to teaching 2nd grade and he was just hideous to the students. They all dreaded his class, came home crying, would get tummy aches, et cetera. My kid made some kind of mistake at the keyboard when he was shutting down his computer, and the teacher made him go around the classroom and shut down everyones computer - which humiliated him terribly. It wasn’t his imagination, because I got a call from a parent whose child came home and said that the teacher was horrible to my son that day and explained what happened in detail.

I think sometimes that they are used to teaching older students and expect these younger ones to have the same skills and abilities and motor skills and maturity, which is of course unreasonable.

I remember saying to my sons math teacher last year: “Well that’s funny, because when he finished school before the summer, math was his favorite subject, he excelled in it, and he was extremely conscientious. I find it hard to believe that he has had a complete personality change over the summer, especially since he is paying attention in all his other classes.” And its funny, because now that he has a different teacher, he loves math again, excels in it, and is extremely conscientious!

Anyway, the point is that teachers have a huge influence, for good and bad over their students, and sometimes the parents actually do have something worthwhile, helpful and germane to say!

By luvs2teach

October 14, 2005 03:28 PM | Link to this

Karen - my comment on the “weak” math teachers at the elementary level wasn’t refering as much to the curriculum as to teachers who make it obvious that math is a horrible task that we should dread.

On another topic that caught my eye - estimation. Blech. I read somewhere, long ago, that it was supposed to be a necessary skill, but not only do we spend way too much time on it, we try to teach a one-size-fits-all method that doesn’t work for all kids. My son lost points on a test back in 3rd or 4th grade because he “estimated wrong.” WHAT??? How do you ESTIMATE incorrectly?

By SWC

October 14, 2005 03:31 PM | Link to this

Leia - Okay, maybe it wasn’t about me, but it WAS a disparaging comment about parents who question a teacher, from a teacher. And, there is a big difference in spending one day on something in 10th grade and the very same subject matter in 5th grade!! To “Zip” through Order of operations in 5th grade, when IT IS a difficult and brand new concept is a terrible idea! Can we agree on that?

By Karen Armsby

October 14, 2005 03:43 PM | Link to this

luvs2teach, Actually I was responding to a combination of comments from several people. It appears from the commenters that even if one is good in math, that doesn’t make him or her a good math teacher, whether it’s for the basics or for more complex concepts. It appears that the earlier grades are rushing through too much material without getting the basics firmly in mind. It appears that a lot of us old school people did quite well drilling the basics and have retained our addition, subtraction, multiplication and division skills 30, 40, or more years later. In my humble opinion the math curriculum shoud be simplified to ensure that the students master the basics before moving onto more abstract concepts. Even the fresh out of college elementary school teacher should be able to drill addition and subtraction, times tables and long division, and fractions. I blelieve that the lack of basic math skills is the root of Georgia’s math problem.

By luvs2teach

October 14, 2005 03:51 PM | Link to this

Good point, SWC…

I love my middle schoolers, but I would hate, hate, hate teaching kindergarten. I don’t have the patience for their needs. Someone very good at the elementary level might feel the same about middle or high schoolers.

I’m sorry that happened to your son. Some teachers (and luckily most don’t last long) get into teaching for the wrong reasons. My advice is to try not to talk badly about the teacher to your child and focus on the learning experience (even if it’s learning how to deal with a challenging teacher).

Before I was in the classroom, I made the mistake of sharing with my daughter my feelings about her 5th grade teacher (luckily one of very few out of a full 13 school years that wasn’t very good). She took to complaining more and using that as an excuse not to do her work or do it well. She had a “bad” year. While I don’t feel completely at blame, I feel like I should’ve handled it differently.

When a similar situation cropped up with one of my son’s teachers, it was understood that no matter what, the teacher was in charge of the classroom, and he (my son) was to do his best. I wouldn’t tolerate any misbehavior (I don’t care what “the other kids” were doing). I would help out any way I could at home, and I was able to enlist the help of one of his other teachers who was aware of the situation. Was it a less than ideal situation? Yes, but it went better than my daughter’s, and it taught my son how to handle a tough teacher and class and still learn.

By Leia

October 14, 2005 03:52 PM | Link to this

SWC - yes, we can agree that Order of Operations is not something that should be rushed through in the 5th grade. That is probably why some still struggle with the concept when they see it again in high school.

And, although you found my comment disparaging - it is true. I have gone from hero to goat with one test grade! Everything is not the teacher’s fault. I’m a parent too, and I very rarely question the teacher’s qualifications when my son does poorly on an assessment. I question his preparedness first.

By luvs2teach

October 14, 2005 04:00 PM | Link to this

Karen - I agree with you about the basic skills - I still remember learning times tables in 3rd grade! We threw the baby out with the bath water when someone (not teachers - believe me, most of us feel like you) wanted to get rid of ALL rote memorization.

I was just clarifying what I meant about “weak” math teachers. It’s true - not all good mathematicians (or scientists or writers) make good teachers. They need to change the old expression from “Those who can do; those who can’t teach” to “Those who can do, can’t always teach.”

By me

October 14, 2005 04:04 PM | Link to this

See how SWC has turned the blog into being about her - again.

By Mark Jackson

October 14, 2005 04:24 PM | Link to this

I feel the math teachers are lacking something as well. I have a degree in computer science and a minor in math (which was only an additional two classes so it was nothing special). My step son is in the first grade and he absolutely hates math. I personally went and sat in on his math class and it was terrible. The teacher was spending more time telling the students how to act than she was teaching them math. I grew up in Ohio and I loved math from the first day of school. My teachers made math fun with flash cards, math contests, and all sorts of games. Teachers don’t make school fun anymore for the kids. I apologize for getting off track. My question is this: What is the starting pay for a math teacher? If anyone has this information please let me know.

By SWC

October 14, 2005 04:24 PM | Link to this

Me - Is there something that I said specifically that you actually disagree with (other than the Leia comment)? I think I’ve made some valid points, and it was easier to make them to an example from experience. So what?

Other than facts, what do any of us know about anything if not through life experience?

Davia, Karen, et all: I agree completely about getting “back to basics” and not needing rocket scientists to teach primary school math. This is costing us a lot, both literally and figuratively. It costs a lot to get an advanced degree and we pay more to teachers with those degrees , but is it necessary? Could we spend those resources better elsewhere? Maybe some teachers might like not having to worry about getting their masters or PHD, and yet would enjoy teaching younger children because they love to teach. They might be willing to give up some income in exchange for more time with their own children (and save on student loans).

By Karen Armsby

October 14, 2005 04:24 PM | Link to this

luvs2teach, When my son was in middle school, in the doldrums, and bored with school, he started dropping some grades here and there, especialliy in one class. We had a meeting with his teacher, and went over each grade and by the end of the meeting my son had to admit that it was his responsibility for handing in homework, getting the papers done on time, etc. On the way home he told me he didn’t care about the class because the teacher didn’t like him. I told him that I didn’t care for her personality much either, BUT, she was his boss and school was his job, and when he grew up he wouldn’t shirk his duties on the job just because he didn’t like his boss, or if he did he’d be out of a job. I told him the bigger challenge for him was not trying to like his teacher, but to figure out what she wanted him to learn or accomplish, and for him to get the best job done for himself, not her. It worked, and turned his attitude about school right around!

By Karen Armsby

October 14, 2005 04:32 PM | Link to this

SWC, I am all for rewarding good teachers with higher salaries, without requiring the advanced degrees. And I think that changes need to be made to the present track for advancement that generally does not reward classroom teachers, but forces them into administration in order to earn higher salaries. There are too many middle managers stirring the broth, and the poor teachers have less and less time to actually instruct because they are burdened with increasing paperwork, rules, policies and politically correct nonsense edicts from the central office.

By me

October 14, 2005 04:46 PM | Link to this

Since I started reading the blog about 3 weeks ago, I have noticed how you try to turn everything around and make it about you. It seems to me that you hate teachers and badmouth them and make fun of them. I know that you will even have something not nice to say about me because I have dared to express my opinion and it is not the same as yours. BTW - I am not a teacher or a parent.

By luvs2teach

October 14, 2005 04:47 PM | Link to this

Karen - exactly what I was talking about. I only wish I had handled it that way with my daughter (she’s 4.0 in college now, so that turned out all right!). It didn’t help that she had a friend in the class whose mom was a friend of mine, and the two of them heard the two of us complaining about this teacher a lot. It undermined her authority, and lessened her importance in the eyes of both our daughters. I truly believe that was part of the problem. Neither my son nor yours had that “out.” We don’t always get along with our coworkers or bosses, but we still need to find a way to make it work if we want to keep our jobs!

By SWC

October 14, 2005 04:48 PM | Link to this

Karen - just out of curiosity, who are these middle managers? What are their titles? What do they do? I’m all for getting rid of politically correct edicts, and having more Indians and less Chiefs. But where do these ideas originate? The Principals? Superintendents? School Board? Unions?

By high school teacher

October 14, 2005 04:50 PM | Link to this

Mark,

Math teachers make the same as all other teachers. You can go the Department of Education website or Professional Standards Commission to see the base salaries, or go to different county websites to see what they pay. All teachers are paid on the same scale; bachelor’s degree, master’s degree, etc., regardless of grade level or subject area.

By SWC

October 14, 2005 04:59 PM | Link to this

Me - you ASSUME that I’m going to have something “not nice to say about you”? I don’t know anything about you and don’t know the first thing about what you actually think about any issues, so there’s nothing for me to say.

By JW

October 14, 2005 05:18 PM | Link to this

Much of the problem has to do with the philosophical stance of college professors and/or school administrators. As part of graduate school program, I had a professor who would not tolerate discussion of flashcards, timed tests or repetitive drill. These are the kinds of people training teachers at the university level.
I have also worked with school administrators who either support basic facts drills/timed tests and those who do not.
So before blaming the teachers for not preparing the students, maybe we should look at how many different ways their hands might be tied by these administrators & professors who buy into all the latest fads and theories about how to best instruct students. You see, all they have to do is dump their pie in the sky notions on the teachers - they never actually have to apply it with a class full of students.

By Nancy

October 14, 2005 05:23 PM | Link to this

To oldschool and Jakesdad, thanks guys. I laughed till I cried. I am also heartened by the blogs today. Everyone is offering good examples and well-crafted argument. And to Gina, my apologies as I did misunderstand you.

By Gina

October 17, 2005 08:17 AM | Link to this

Nancy, Thank you — I accept your apology. This was my first time posting and I will admit I was a little surprised at your initial reaction to my post. It did make me try to choose my wording better in later posts!

By me

October 17, 2005 08:55 AM | Link to this

SWC - You ASSUMED that I was talking to you in my last entry. LOL And you responded exactly the way I expected you to respond.

By MSTeacher

October 17, 2005 09:51 AM | Link to this

I have a secondary degree in Social Studies, but my first job as a teacher was in 4th grade teaching math and spelling. I had added on certification in Middle Grades Education, so I was certified, but certainly not highly qualified. Since I had no idea what I was doing, I began by following the book which was set up according to national standards. What I found was that in this particular school which was an at-risk school, the kids did not know their multiplication, addition, subtraction, and division facts. They could not do the other concepts because it took them too long to perform those operations. I took them back to basics. We spent several weeks on those facts. Every day I gave them a timed test on which they had to solve 100 problems using addition facts in 3 minutes. After a week at 3 minutes, we reduced the time to 2 minutes and then to 1 minute. We did this for each operation. By the end of 12 weeks they could complete a timed test in 1 minute with 95% accuracy. THEN we could move on to other concepts like fractions and decimels. The 5th grade teachers loved me because they didn’t have to go back and teach those things again. BTW, we continued those tests for the rest of the year, completing them once a week.

That was the extent of my experience teaching math, but now as a SS teacher, I wish the lower grade teachers would leave the Social studies to us, because most of them know nothing about it, and just teach them to read and do math. The students would be much better off than being taught Social Studies and Science incorrectly.

By jakesdad

October 17, 2005 09:51 AM | Link to this

thanks, Nancy…

actually this get even funnier: I was discussing this blog with my wife over dinner Friday. she remembered the watch story and I told her oldschool’s deli story. she got that “hmm…” look for a few seconds and said “well, it would be about $70, wouldn’t it?”. well, at least they covered “estimating” in her MBA program… ;-)