By DB

October 11, 2005 08:17 AM | Link to this

Teach the students. Do your best. Don’t worry about things you can’t control. If the parents don’t support you, don’t deal with them any longer. This is a classic example of public education putting all the responsibility on the teacher and little or none on the students or their parents. Parents that are disruptive or unsupportive should be “shunned” until they change their behavior such that they are supportive, period.

By t

October 11, 2005 08:50 AM | Link to this

This statement is so true. Parents blame you when their children act out, They blame you when their children fail. They blame you when their child is late, absent, and sick. It is all the teachers fault. Somewhere in the meantime their child becomes a victim of illiteracy and the cycle continues.

By b. white

October 11, 2005 08:55 AM | Link to this

PTCs are different in high achieving and low achieving schools. There will be more participation in high achieving schools. How do you think they became high achieving - parent involvement. Many parents don’t want to hear about their children’s low grades and bad behavior. It certainly is a bad reflection on them. One or two phone calls home are met with polite acceptance, but the third or fourth is met with hostility, and then the teacher might as well accept that he/she must take matters into his/her own hands. The parents now begin to blame the teacher and the school.

By HStchr

October 11, 2005 08:57 AM | Link to this

Coming from a school in a high poverty area, I know how this feels. All too often, poverty creates the attitude that “school is school and not my problem”, which explains why these kids generally perform poorly. But these are also the schools that NCLB is meant to address. You have to keep at it and keep trying. My school was there, but after several years, we’re getting parents to come, we’re having successful conferences and Student Support Team meetings, and the trend of poor scores is changing. Keep at it, and keep trying. When the message gets out to the community that you mean business and that you expect support, it will slowly come. It has taken five years to really see the difference, but I had more parents this year for Open House than I have had in many years, and many of my students said their parent(s) were coming for PTC day. It takes time, but poor performing schools have to keep at it and keep trying. Saturate the parents with letters and phone calls, and eventually it will pay off for the kids!

By Dan

October 11, 2005 09:12 AM | Link to this

I guess all they can do is Cover their butt. Document attempted calls and conversations, write it down as it happens so you don’t forget anything. save emails etc. Most likely the disruptive parents and children won’t be organized enough to do the same and when push comes to shove hopefully you will be covered. Note this technique also works well the other way for parents dealing with poor teachers

By DB

October 11, 2005 09:36 AM | Link to this

The story of CYA is so sad. Wasting all our time dealing with disruptive and irresponsible families only to ignore those that care is the exact reason why public education is so terrible. Following all these kids and families around and “covering” our back side only serves as evidence that the wrong people have too much power in our society. There’s nothing worse than having the uneducated “dictate” to the educators how to run schools.

By OldSchool

October 11, 2005 09:51 AM | Link to this

My most successful parent/teacher meetings included the student. I make certain I begin with some of the strengths or pretty good things I can honestly say about the student and then try to phrase the problem(s) in a diplomatic way. I ask for suggestions as to how we as a team can handle the situation. You’d be surprised at the difference having the student there makes. I’ve learned to avoid confrontation and to have an administrator and/or counselor sit in as positive support. So far I’ve been fortunate that most meetings are actually productive. And yes, I’ve had my share of no show parents. The worst are the ones who schedule, reschedule, and still never show.

By Dan

October 11, 2005 10:01 AM | Link to this

DB you are right it is a shame, but it is certainly not exclusive to education. The need for CYA exists everywhere, and the root cause is not so much those in power (although they help) but the very losers who blame others for all their ills, be it a bad job, a run down home, and even their kids not doing well in school. There always have been people like this and there will always be people like this, it is part of human nature.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

October 11, 2005 10:27 AM | Link to this

I believe that PTC should be held on the very first day of school/registration. It would set the ton for the school year. It could be held in groups of 6- 8 parents for about an hour, for each group of parents. Teacher could then outline the basics of what will be covered for the school year and how grades will be determined. The teacher could then use that time to make the parents aware of what days the PTC for each semester will be held and find out what times/days work best for them. I would hand out sheets of papers with the PTC schedule for them to sign and schedule an appointment in advance. Let them know that she/he is willing to work around their schedule. For the teachers, students consider “hard” - I would let the parents know that day what is expected and what is required to pass their class. Let them know, that “they” have the opportunity to select a new teacher at that time. I would outline how behavioral issues would be handled and let them know up front that you do not except bad behavior. Give the parents the opportunity to say how they would like their child to be punished for mis behavior. That would give the teacher a clue about the parent and their children. That gives the parent a chance to come clean about past behavior, such as little Johnny likes to talk.

Since, Johnny likes to talk in class, he would be the first person I called on when a question in class needs to be answered.

If you have a website, I would have an outline for the semester or school year on it and provide a copy to the parents.

Ask the parents how they would like to be contacted if there is a problem with their child. Give them the option not to be contacted at all (that should take care of the ones who do not care).

During the school semester/week, let the parent know how their children are doing and when the times comes for PTC, you have done all that is possible.

The point I am trying to make is: if the parents are aware of the rules/guidelines and what will be covered on the first day - there are no excuses.

I know that a lot of what I stated is held at the beginning of the school year, but 3 and 4 weeks into the shool years, the ton has already been set.

I might also suggest holding a Pep Rally for students and their parents on the first day/registion day for elementary and middle school kids. One big open forum on what is expected at school, the exciting things for the school year and the punishments for bad behavior.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

October 11, 2005 10:32 AM | Link to this

I forgot to put an “e” on Tone.

By Parent

October 11, 2005 10:34 AM | Link to this

Get over it. It’s really that simple. As professionals, teachers should understand there are times when you pick up the slack for others, be it administrators, parents, or anyone else. Your job is to educate the world’s children regardless of there parents, regardless of their behavior, regardless of your own personal frustrations. I do not have perfect children, and have been to teacher conferences, meetings with councelors and more. I am a mother, a professional mother, who has no sympathy for the whining teachers who gripe about there job more than they do it. No one, not one single person, can just leave there job at there place of business. Our jobs are a part of our life, and sometimes that means taking it home with you, showing up early, or staying late to get it done. What ever it takes, what ever must be done, just do it. Think about it: If you say that no one is helping or contributing, then who does that leave it up to? Or, are you going to just give up with them?

By Concerned Teacher

October 11, 2005 10:43 AM | Link to this

PARENT you are prime example of what teachers have to deal with in schools. Some many parents think it is the school job to raise your children. We need the support of parents not resentment from parents like you.

By HStchr

October 11, 2005 10:43 AM | Link to this

So Parent, what do we “whiners” do when little Johnny needs help, we can’t get the parents on the phone,noone comes for a scheduled conference, and little Johnny is interrupting the learning of every child in class?? When we work together, kids do better. You obviously know that as an involved parent. But how do we “get over it” and help a child when the parents won’t work with us? We can only do so much on our own and still help all the other children in class who need us. How do we help children who don’t want to help themselves?

By Angela Dorsey

October 11, 2005 10:44 AM | Link to this

Teach the children. Remember we now live in a society where we like to pass the buck or point the finger at the other person for anything that has gone wrong or anything we don’t like. Anytime we can send our children to school and do not keep the line of communication open, it could be sending the messeage; well I am not concerned. And to want your child removed from a class simply becasue she feels the teacher is to hard, I say you are truly doing your job becasue after all if we are not challenged, how can we measure our growth or learning. I welcome a higher standard of learning.

By Typical

October 11, 2005 10:52 AM | Link to this

The comments by “Parent” are typical of those who children are out of control. Because you have a job that excuses you from taking responsibility for your childrens actions. I don’t think so. I too work full-time, but I chose to have children so therefore it is my responsibility not a teachers to make sure they understand and respect the school system. A teacher is there to “teach” not babysit ill-mannered children who are not getting attention at home and acting out at school. I believe you need to get over yourself and be a responsible parent without pushing your “responsibilities” as a parent off on a teacher who has anywhere from 18-25 students in a class. If you are unable to control your child how do you expect one teacher to control and teach 25 undisciplined children. Please let me know what you think.

By a concerned parent

October 11, 2005 10:52 AM | Link to this

Parent you give the rest of us a bad name. it is your responsibility to keep up with your child’s teachers and find out how they are progressing in class. it is your responsibility to keep in touch with the teacher and lend a hand when you can, i know that work schedules intefere sometimes, but PTC’s are there for the benefit of the parent as well as the child. my kids attend a great school, and you are required to attent the PTC’s whether you want to or not, you have to volunteer in your child’s classroom or at the school in general in order for your child to remain a student at the school. bottom line is the kids do better in school when parents participate. and besides, your child is with another adult during the day, don’t you want to know what type of person is teaching your child?…i’m sorry i got away from the question, Patti please don’t get discouraged, keep doing what you do and know that there are some parents out here who appreciate you and others like you who teach our children each day…THANK YOU

By DB

October 11, 2005 10:53 AM | Link to this

Dan: I tend to disagree with you in just saying it has and will always be this way. These kind of people were once in the minority, but the numbers now are outrageous, and they are on the rise more than ever. Yes, it is everywhere, and that’s sad. I’m so tired of everyone blaming everyone else for their problems. You can only help those that are willing to help themselves. The “complainers” of our society are ruining it for everyone else. By saying they had the power, I really mean through lawsuits and complaining, our society has become a place where everyone is too quick to blame, and most everyone thinks they need to answer to no one, yet those that work the hardest have to answer to everyone. That is where this “CYA” society originates. Professionals do need to answer to someone, but not everyone. It is a liability to be a teacher, doctor, nurse, or most anything for that matter.

It has to stop!

By DB

October 11, 2005 10:56 AM | Link to this

Parent: I suggest you to teach for a few years. I’ve done it all, and let me tell you, you have no idea!

By DB

October 11, 2005 11:07 AM | Link to this

This whole mentality that some people need to “pick up slack” for others is absolutely ridiculous. The only ones that truly need help are the elderly and the handicapped. Everyone else should do their part. Teachers should be teachers. Parents should be parents. Students should be students. Patients should be patients. That’s how society should work. Picking up slack only perpetuates the problem. Everyone needs to take responsibility for their own actions and their own fate. Unfortunately, in our public education system, we’re instilling the exact opposite. Kids today know everyone else will “pick up the slack” for them in the form of PTC, dropping classes, afterschool intervention, etc., and therein lies the problem.

By Typical

October 11, 2005 11:12 AM | Link to this

I would like to hear from “Parent”. I can only imagine her child is one of the “problem” children that is keeping the other students from learning due to lack of attention and discipline at home. Blaming others for your problems creates more problems for you. I suggest you and your child/children seek some kind of counseling.

By Dick

October 11, 2005 11:46 AM | Link to this

Use the ole C.Y.A. method of approach. Save any and all correspondense sent to parents. Then when it is time to meet with the great Educational Committee we have in Georgia, take the papers you saved, throw them in a box and hand them to the committee. Tell them “this is what we are up against in educating children today, don’t blame our school system blame the parents. Maybe the elected officials will finally be able to see the root of the problem. I have said all along, the majority of our elected officals-loca, state, federal can’t see the forest because those stupid trees keep getting in the way.

By ELC

October 11, 2005 11:52 AM | Link to this

I agree with HSTCHR. My mother-in-law was a teacher for 35 years and I informed her to read the notations on this subject that TEACHERS have posted. It was saddening to her and myself included being a mother of 3. It seems as though we have a lot teachers who have entered the profession “only to help those who want to be helped”. You will never have 100% participation from parents I don’t care where you teach. I have read all of the comments and it seems as if the teachers are losing their sense of purpose. It’s perplexing how the previous entries are commenting on the negative issues with parent participation. What about that small percentage of parents who do care about their kids and DO show up? Please let us feel that there are teachers who are not trying to keep there “stats” up by having 100% participation. Since all these teachers have so much to say, answer this, why is it that within the last 10 years, the percentage of teachers with 10 or more years of service has declined to 35% compared to 47% in the early 90’s?

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

October 11, 2005 11:56 AM | Link to this

Typical,

I am not “Parent”, but I can agree with what she/he said. The teacher should still continue to teach the children, even those that are out of control.

Teacher has to learn how to out smart the child.

If the child likes to talk: Let the child talk and grade he/she on grammer. I would also call on that child first, for every subject. After a few weeks of that, I can bet you will have a changed person.

If the child takes that opportunity to speak, to be funny. Use it as an opportunity to let that child teach the class for a few minutes. After a while it will get old.

I had a six grade teacher, who was teaching for the first time in 1983. He was good and many tried to take advantage of him, because of his age. I remember him very well, because of the way he punished the trouble makers. We all learned a lot that year and my friends and I often think about that year more than any other. We learned that there was a time and a place for everything. Taught to us by a, 23 year old, first time teacher.

By abc

October 11, 2005 12:00 PM | Link to this

Besides, it goes both ways. I had a meeting with a guidance counselors at my son’s high school last week; he was going to get feedback from all my son’s teachers and get back to me. A week has passed with no word from him. Now he’s taking messages, but still no reply. What’s a parent to do? Gripe and moan, paint all the counselors with this particular one’s brush?

By b. white

October 11, 2005 12:04 PM | Link to this

DB I like your way of thinking. May I add an Amen to your postings.

By ELC

October 11, 2005 12:44 PM | Link to this

I bet Earl Z is a parent. Please God let him be a parent and not a teacher. We all know that was a racist comment. People who are racist are cowards too. That’s why you didn’t identify if you were a parent or teacher. Glad to see you can at least read!!

By em

October 11, 2005 12:51 PM | Link to this

Dear Professional Mother Parent, I am not whining but the correct spelling for there is their.

By DB

October 11, 2005 01:16 PM | Link to this

ELC: Those small percentage of parents who do show up are included in those that want to help themselves! Unfortunately, most teachers are bogged down in negativity from the other 90% of meetings with parents that only want to point the finger.

By DB

October 11, 2005 01:21 PM | Link to this

Amazed: You’ve obviously never been in a classroom. I suppose high schoolers don’t exist? That method works for about 10% of kids, and you can get sued for doing things like that because you actually push the “poor little children” to actually think before they act. The rest will flip your the bird, or worse. I used to be that way, but there’s a fine line between dropping to their level and getting reprimanded or sued. Also, what do you do when the “attention freaks” actually like getting up in front of the class and take advantage of the situation? There simply needs to be more authority in schools, period.

By E. Lewis

October 11, 2005 01:22 PM | Link to this

As a former teacher, I can certainly sympathize. Perhaps worse than having so few parents show up would be having the parents, who have ignored the homework assignments and progress reports you’ve been sending out notifying them of the student’s lack of progress, show up complaining about the failing grades you dare to give their child. The PTC was the only time I ever heard from most parents. The best you can do is to keep doing what you are doing. It is your responsibility to teach and to inform the parents of the students’ progress. It is the responsibility of the parents to keep abreast of their child’s progress.

By DB

October 11, 2005 01:25 PM | Link to this

Hey, let’s not stoit pointin out typing errars agin. It gits old reelly fast and gits it off topac.

By Manny

October 11, 2005 01:37 PM | Link to this

DB - a “typing” error would suggest that the person actually knew the correct word to use! Using there for their several times in one post concerning education is just ignorant!

By mike

October 11, 2005 01:38 PM | Link to this

The problem here is simple. If the teacher has a student that is disturbing class remove the student. Make it mandatory that all parents must pick up the report cards by hand and schedule 15 minutes with the teacher to talk about things. If the parents don’t show give them a warning, the second time they don’t show ban the kid from school. The problem is we are coddling kids to much these days. Draw the line in the sand then hold it. If the kids are trouble and the parents don’t care why should we. Kick them from school and forget about it.

By crh

October 11, 2005 01:44 PM | Link to this

At the last two open houses that we have had at our high school, there have been twice as many teachers in attendance as parents. This is after reminders were mailed home, signs put up and announcements made on the intercom.

By oldteacher

October 11, 2005 01:45 PM | Link to this

Just in case anyone is wondering, I am on my lunch break. We have PTCs scheduled for tomorrow. The students will be out 1/2 in order for the parents to come. We have scheduled conferences from 11:00 am until 4:00 pm. We will see all the parents that we have already seen several times this year. We will see the parents who are so involved with their student’s lives that we know they will be a success. Do I think taking 1/2 day off to do PTCs is a good idea? Yes and no. Many of the parents that we would like to see and who would like to see us work hourly jobs and simply cannot afford to take the time off. You might ask, “Why don’t you do this at night?” We do it then too, but the same parents come.

By Nel

October 11, 2005 01:52 PM | Link to this

Parent:

You sound like part of the problem. We all get a certain number of days each year from our employers which include sick, personal and vacation. You might want to consider keeping some of that time in had for things related to your children in school. I do and so do many of us. Teachers are not there to pick up the slack where you are failing to keep your children on track. If you are a disagreeable employee, your employer will dump you. Unfortunately, people expect teachers to suck up the bad behavior and abuse from other people’s kids. That’s wicked and selfish.

By SWC

October 11, 2005 01:59 PM | Link to this

Did anybody see a PBS program last week (can’t remember what it was called unfortunately) that showed different methods being used successfully in high poverty and ESLA neighborhoods? It was an amazing and inspirational program that took kids who were destined for failure and transformed them into children who loved to learn, learned to read, learn math and science and history and technology- the works. Fostered a real sense of community and pride (based on achievement). Kids getting accepted at great prep schools, kids who were hanging out with gangs learning to love history, kids who were bored with school introduced to computer drafting and wanting to be architects.

Different methods worked in different schools, but the point is that given the right methods, kids can learn and go on to be productive adults. Some of the methods were pretty radical and teachers were often opposed to the new methods, but became believers once they saw the results. There was one example where it didn’t work because the school board refused to get on board, and some methods would not be appropriate for all students or school districts, but for the most part they were incredibly successful. Does anyone know what program I’m talking about?

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

October 11, 2005 01:59 PM | Link to this

DB, I teach my child everyday, as well as the children of my family and friends. I’m not a license teacher, but I hold a degree in computer science. I also deal with many different types of personalities daily and they can act as children. So, just because I am not in a classroom, does not eliminate my opinion about how to teach.

Highschool kids are of a different matter, when it comes to education and the effect/affect their parents will have on their grades. You really can not hold a parent accountable past the age of 14. A parent can punish until they are blue in the face. That’s why I believe we must start in elementary and middle school. We can only hope that what we instill in them at that age, will carry over into highschool and college. The key to highschool kids is to show them what life is like, without an education. We must show them that at age 18 you are legally responsible for yourself. Let them know in highschool, that it is a “GIFT” to them, if their parents choose to pay for college or let them remain in their household past the age of 18.

Highschoolers are old enough to learn life lessons, such as paying for things they like and want to do. If they choose to wear $130 sneakers, they should have a job or do housework as if they owned the place.

My mother gave me the option once entering highschool to either earn good grades for college or I would have to pay half the household bills, if I continued to live with her upon graduating highschool.

What you see at the highschool level, is what we didn’t prepare for in elementary school. However, I do believe that middle school holds the key to success. Middle school kids need structure and discipline more than any other.

I’m not a teacher, just a parent who cares about my child and others.

By Laura

October 11, 2005 02:03 PM | Link to this

I was a parent in a high achieving heavy parental participation public school, but with a special ed child, and having to hear constant complaining about your child can get old quick.

The phone rings, you don’t want to answer it. “Your son is not coloring in the lines. Your son can’t read. Your son’s handwriting is illegible. Your son isn’t following directions.” Well, no kidding. He has 9 dx’s!

So, I ask the teacher, “Is the reading program you are using multi sensory, research based, 1 on 1 and sequential? (“No.”) What are you doing to teach him handwriting? (“We don’t teach handwriting since it’s not part of the state testing.”) Are you giving him Occupational Therapy for his fine motor skills? (“We don’t do OT.”) Are you breaking down your directions into smaller steps for my son since he has multiple disabilites? (“I have 21 other kids. I can’t give your child special help.”)

So now my son attends a private school for kids with learning disabilities and their philosophy is to get the parents out of the educational loop. Parents are to raise money for the school. The teachers teach these kids. They don’t call to complain about the kids. Parent teacher conferences are not ambushes. Instead, they find a way to teach the kids the way the kids need to be taught. It’s comprehensive and they teach manners and social skills at the same time they are teaching reading and writing.

For this I pay $17,000/year. It’s better than being emtionally drained by teachers calling and complaining about my son like I have some kind of remote control device to get him to do what they want him to when he is with them.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

October 11, 2005 02:12 PM | Link to this

SWC, I saw the program and I thought it was great. Sometime it takes radical things to become successful.

Some people just do not understand that you can learn, without being mounted to a desk and a chair all day with a teacher lecturing.

My daughter learned to count cookies and do fractions and multiplication with fruit. The more answers she knew, the more cookies and fruit she could have. We grocery shop together and she gets the correct pints,gallons and liters. I use the same techniques when I cook diner or bake.

I don’t advocate this method, because of calories, but she learned to spell the names of food and restaurants in order to eat there. She learned how to spell McDonalds very quickly.

My point is: don’t bore the kids and have fun with it. Kids love challenges, but a good teacher know this already.

By ELC

October 11, 2005 02:43 PM | Link to this

THANK YOU AJC

By ELC

October 11, 2005 03:06 PM | Link to this

THANK YOU AJC for starting such an eye-opening topic. For the teachers who feel that their job is difficult…we all have difficult jobs. I am an african-american executive within corportate america…….level of difficulty…about the same wouldn’t you say??? Difficult as it may be, I continue to work in that environment because I love what I do!!! Please, to those teachers who have become so hardened by parents who just don’t care……think about another career. A career in which you feel appreciated. You are only going to hurt those who need help and not give those children who want help the attention they deserve.

By Tiffany

October 11, 2005 03:20 PM | Link to this

Ok to all teachers, since you have soo much negativism, what do you have to say about LAURA’s comment??? I think if a lot more of us thought that way, you wouldn’t have a job in the public school system would you???

By BAA

October 11, 2005 03:22 PM | Link to this

Why is it when a teacher complains about unruly children and disrespectful uninvolved parents, someone answers “get another job”. That’s crazy. If your child, whom you, as an involved parent is in a classroom trying to learn and you have a foul mouthed 12yr old constantly disrupting their class I do not believe the answer is for the teacher to get another job. The answer is to allow the parent the opportunity to get a hold on their child and if that does not work then have the child removed to a more suitable class so that the other 20 children in the class are allowed to learn. It is high time we stop allowing 1 or 2 students that have no interest in learning to impede the success of the rest of the class. Stop making excuses for the slackers and make them take responsibilty for their actions without punishing the majority that is there to learn and better themselves. There are many people who have overcome adversity to make successes of themselves without constantly making excuses as to why they can not succeed.

By dgr

October 11, 2005 03:23 PM | Link to this

Amazed, I’m usually in agreement with you, however I’m here on the front lines everyday - and let me tell you it’s not that easy. Teaching one or even five nephews and nieces are one thing but try 33 in one class x 6 classes…. It is totally insane! I have to modify all my lessons for every type of child; ESOL, OT, ADHD BD, and so on. Usually the parents that want PTC’s are parents of excellent students who keep in constant communication anyway. It’s the ones we need to talk to that don’t come. Please if everyone could just walk a block (not even a mile) in the shoes of teachers trying to make a difference you will definitely have some very sore feet!

By DB

October 11, 2005 03:31 PM | Link to this

Mike: You hit the nail on the head! I’ve tried pointing this out for the past 10 years, but no one wants to get real.

Amazed: Like I said, you never taught in a classroom where you’re berated by administrators, parents, and a bunch of useless “coddling” laws. I didn’t say your opinion should be eliminated. You just make it sound a lot easier than it is, and I therefore said it was obvious you never spent time in the classroom. Really, most teachers are pretty clever at doing things like that, but with no expectations coming from above, including administration, parents, and society, it doesn’t work too well. You’re methods only work on those kids that are on the “border” of disrespectful.

By dgr

October 11, 2005 03:33 PM | Link to this

ELC, I hear you, however if teachers could quit every time they wanted too it would be definitely unbeneficial to students with constant turnover and no structure. That’s why we are under contract and cannot break the contract unless a dire emergency to keep consistency throughout the year for the children. And Laura, you did the best thing for your child; public schools are not for every child and if your child is getting what they need with his disabilities then that is all that matters.

By DB

October 11, 2005 03:35 PM | Link to this

Amazed: I totally agree with you about 14 years and beyond and about starting in the lower grades. It should be that way all the way through. In fact, kids learn that school is not a place to mess around in their elementary years. However, many parents don’t see things as you do. They think it’s their duty to buy them useless “things” to make sure they “compete” in the world. In reality, they are delaying their development as productive adults. The sad part is that this type of behavior is the norm these days.

By Tiffany

October 11, 2005 03:37 PM | Link to this

TYPICAL…I get so sick and tired people always wanting to use the word “counseling” as a solution to everything. Counseling is costly. If you meet the income qualifications to qualify for free couseling, it’s only for 7-10 lessons. But I’m sure that’s enough isn’t it?? Offer a solution…tell the person where she can find counseling, what kind would be effective…since you have so much too say.

By DB

October 11, 2005 03:37 PM | Link to this

Laura: It sounds like you’d do fine teaching your own kid. Maybe you should do that.

By DB

October 11, 2005 03:38 PM | Link to this

Laura: I take that back. I didn’t read the private school part. My bad. Good for you.

By DB

October 11, 2005 03:42 PM | Link to this

Amazed: You don’t have to entertain kids all the time. In the long run, that’s why they hate school in high school and beyond when things cannot be made into games. It’s good to make things fun, but a better word would be practical, and don’t reward them all the time. That way, learning is the reward, not cookies or fruits. Kids like that grow up to be “entitled” high schoolers that think they get an instant reward for everything they do. You just have to be moderate with it.

By ELC

October 11, 2005 03:59 PM | Link to this

BAA….if you find something in your life that is making you unhappy…..change it. Whether it’s a job or a party in a relationship. It can be that simple. I challenge you to write to your congressmen and representives and express your concern as you’ve done on this post. The problem is rooted deeper than just uncontrollable children or parents who don’t support the teachers.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

October 11, 2005 04:04 PM | Link to this

There should be a reality TV show where teachers could swap their classroom for a day in a parents job. I think you will find that outside of the classroom is just as hard.

For instance, no one in corporate america pays attention until something major occurrs. They never have what they need and do not know how to request the correct information. They also act like children and throw temper tamtrums. You have to go behind them and correct information, they get attitudes when you make them aware of the problem(I can’t call their parents and their boss is not any better.)

They never ask questions, until it is too late.

They are always out, because their child is sick and complain constantly.

I would rather be working with their kids in most cases, because at least I know the children do not know any better and need to learn.

I work with more adults than you have students and my phone rings constantly. When I go on vacation, my email and voicemail usually takes an entire day to review. The messages usually read something like this “Do you remember the document you sent me back in March, well, I need it again.” Or “I have a meeting tomorrow morning, do you think you can come up with something by this afternoon.”

And when I say something, those are exact words. I sometimes have to think for some adults. Many will probably wonder how a computer science degree figure into the request I recieve. You get to teach, but I get pulled into several occupations at once.

Reality TV Show anyone, so that I can walk a day in a Teachers shoes?

By Tiffany

October 11, 2005 04:05 PM | Link to this

I agree DB.

By DB

October 11, 2005 04:08 PM | Link to this

Tiffany: Exactly, that’s why I teach at a private school! And I love it. And those that don’t want help fail out or get kicked out. And those that are on the “border”, I have the ability to change their lives for the better, even some that wouldn’t normally have hope. I can tell parents they aren’t being helpful and they back off. And their kids learn something about life.

By BAA

October 11, 2005 04:08 PM | Link to this

Tiffany,

Although I know you didn’t mean to come off sounding so hostile I have to agree with “Typical”. Parents who believe that the school system is responsible for the actions of students need to take a look at themselves as “role models” for their children. Schools have counselors that are paid to help parents in situations such as these. There are many things money can not buy and teaching a child to respect another person starts at a young age. Most people have hardships in their lives and many do not shift the responsibility of child rearing to the educational system. Education is a privilage. There are those that would die for an education here in the U.S. If we would stop making excuses for ill mannered children they may grow up to be “contributing” citizens instead of “what can you do for me” with their hands out.

By dgr

October 11, 2005 04:26 PM | Link to this

Amazed, I was an account manager at two major corporations for seven years before teaching, I promise you it’s a different world. So, I’m living the reality show, for every wonderful parent such as yourself, I have at least 10 - 15 mediocre parents, only concerned with their jobs and making money to have their children raised by BET and MTV.

By Nick

October 11, 2005 04:26 PM | Link to this

Someone just made a point about adults who whine and throw temper tantrums in the corporate world. Aren’t we (parents, teachers, and any other adult who works with a child in any way) supposed to teach children habits and attitudes to prevent them from being childish as adults?

By Tiffany

October 11, 2005 04:27 PM | Link to this

BAA, you don’t know me and I don’t know you. Hostile is not a word I would have chosen….nonetheless, you are entitled to your opinion and I mine. We live in the good ole USA… since when did education become a “priviledge”?? It’s a priviledge for our children to be taught out of 10 year old textbooks. It’s a priviledge for the teachers not to be given adequate materials in order to teach our children. Priviledge…….please.

By HStchr

October 11, 2005 04:33 PM | Link to this

Amazed—I’d take a spot on the show in a minute. Not because I think you have it any easier, but because I’d like to see your reaction to my job. I’ve worked in “corporate America” and been a teacher. Essentially, the stress level is the same, but in my corporate role I actually had vacation time and weekends to myself. And there’s something about knowing that your every decision and word affects someone’s entire life that makes teaching very taxing. I love teaching, I love kids, and I do everything I can to help them. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. Please understand that much of what teachers are pointing out here applies to a small minority of parents whose kids can make or break a classroom environment. Obviously, those responding here are good parents—and so are many of the teachers. We don’t have many places to vent our frustrations. Just like in your job “the boss” certainly doesn’t want to hear it!

By tiffany

October 11, 2005 04:39 PM | Link to this

Ditto HStchr.

By ELC

October 11, 2005 04:47 PM | Link to this

All of our jobs are just as important as the next. Whether it’s an executive, or a waitress. We are all working for a purpose. I only included my title, which I regret I did, to show that stress is stress. I don’t care where you work, we all have responsibilites. It’s like I hear everyday, “oh I have a masters or I’m working on my doctorate”. Those comments are always stated to those individuals who have no degree, but are equally or more qualified. That’s why I make it a point to balance things by hiring individuals who are QUALIFIED, not just educated. If your educational status or job title definds who you are, then you do not know who YOU really are.

By ELC

October 11, 2005 04:51 PM | Link to this

I think I got off the subject a little….sorry.

By SWC

October 11, 2005 04:54 PM | Link to this

Okay, time for me to come to the defense of “parent” and others. If one were to go back and review days, weeks or months of this blog, it would soon be very apparent that there are a lot of teachers who have a knee jerk nuclear reaction to any critical or exasperated comments from parents. Most importantly, many of these teachers immediately accuse the parents of having louses for children, being horrible parents who spoil their kids, never having “been in a classroom”, ad infinitum without a shred of evidence to support their assertion.

Look, we can all agree that there are some horrible parents out there who don’t take an active role in anything their kids do. But, all too frequently, if a parent says anything that is even slightly critical of the status quo, not only are they attacked, but all sorts of crazy assumptions are made about the parent. Yesterday John C was attacked by Dan. Today “Parent” has been attacked and told that she is part of the problem and obviously has a horror for a child who needs counseling. I have been accused of having a brat for a child, torturing teachers with my demands, driving my my son to an out of district school (in an SUV which makes it doubly criminal) to name just a few of my supposed faults.

You can’t make assumptions based on absolutely zero evidence - and that should be a sort of Hippocratic oath for teacher, of all professions. And if that weren’t bad enough, some of you take it a step further and issue desktop psychotherapy advice about the need for “counseling”. “Parent” got it today; I’ve gotten it too. And you call “parent” wicked?

Life is tough. The private sector or boardroom is no piece of cake. So when you get some backlash from parents who think thou doth protest too much maybe it might be wise to assume the best of them instead of the worst for a change.

By BAA

October 11, 2005 04:55 PM | Link to this

Tiffany,

Education here is a privilage. Think,if only those who could afford to pay for it rec’d it. I’m not saying that public education in the U.S. is without it’s problems but the alternative would be disastrous. I stand behind our teachers 110%. Both of my boys are in public school and because I attend PTA, parent-teacher conferences and any other event I can, which is where all my vacation time goes. Because I am an involved parent I know which teachers to request that match my childs needs. I am not an executive with flexible hours, but a devoted mother with the priorities of my children at the top of my list. I e-mail my children’s teachers and show interest in their progress. I know that the children disrupting the class are the one’s whose parents never attend school functions and refuse to take responsibility for their 8 yr. olds behavior. Ours is not a perfect world, but with children comes responsibility and it is not up to the school system to raise our children.

By tiffany

October 11, 2005 05:08 PM | Link to this

Hooray SWC’s comment……and I meant that in a magniloquent way….

By Michael H

October 12, 2005 09:24 AM | Link to this

Independent Woman,

I decided to grade you on your grammar in every subject, including blogging 101. You made a 65F.

If the child likes to talk: Let the child talk and grade he/she on grammer. should be him/her -5

If the child takes that opportunity to speak, to be funny. *fragment -10

I had a six should be sixth, -5 grade teacher, who was teaching for the first time in 1983.

Taught to us by a, 23 year old, first time teacher. *improper use of comma, fragment -15

By Alice

October 12, 2005 09:25 AM | Link to this

My children attend a DeKalb charter elementary school that is very diverse — lots of nationalities, races and ethnicities. About a third of the school qualifies for free and reduced lunch.

The school requires that parents attend a minimum of 2 conferences a year. Plus, if the teacher requests an extra conference, the parent must comply. Our conference nights are packed, plus the teachers are willing to meet whenever the parents are available.

In North Carolina, many school districts won’t send report cards home, the parents must report to the school to pick them up. As long as schools have some flexibility, parents can rise to the occassion.

I think that one of the biggest problems in the American public education system is the very low expectations that we place on parents. We purposely sought out a school that holds parents accountable — it makes for a better school.

By V

October 12, 2005 09:35 AM | Link to this

Michael:

You missed one. “Grammer” should be “grammar”. I couldn’t resist. ;0)

By KABA

October 12, 2005 10:02 AM | Link to this

Alice, It seems that you chose a ‘charter’ school and accepted their requirements of parent involvement because you are a good parent, like the other good parents that chose that charter school. The question Patti posed concerns parents who are not involved, don’t want to be involved and they never show up for a PTC. How do schools, teachers, kids entice these reluctant parents to get involved? The school may have high expectations, but the parents say, “so what!”

By KABA

October 12, 2005 10:12 AM | Link to this

Michael H, For most of us blogging here, the purpose is to communicate, exchange, and debate ideas. I think it is more like a speaking forum, less like a letter to the editor.

When speaking with others we don’t usually interrupt them to correct their grammar. These corrections distract us from the flow of ideas. And what is your pupose; to show us how smart you are, smarter than the poster, or the rest of us? So let’s all agree to ignore the grammar and spelling corrections, and just talk to each other, OK?

By Velatra

October 12, 2005 10:21 AM | Link to this

Alice, you are absolutely correct. Parents do need to be held more accountable. In DeKalb County, the theme school, Narvie J. Harris ES, is one such school that hold its parents accountable. Parents have to spend a number of volunteer hours (8, I think) at the school per semester, and the PTA meetings are so packed, there is standing-room only. If I’m not mistaken, if the parents do not meet this requirement, then they have to find other schools for their children to attend. Uniforms are not optional; they are required. Perhaps, these reasons are why their test scores are some of the highest in the county and state.

As a teacher, my hats are off to the parents who genuinely care about the welfare of their children. These are the parents who take the time to come into the classrooms and see what is actually going on. These are also the parents who do not sit back and criticize, but emphatize and support, the teachers who are trying to do a job that some others think is so easy to do.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

October 12, 2005 10:28 AM | Link to this

Michael H.

Thanks for correcting my grammar. You get a “D” minus for originality and lack of personality.

By Dan

October 12, 2005 10:31 AM | Link to this

So what happens if the parent doesn’t perform their 8 hours volunteer work?
And btw having parents volunteer is in no way shape or form holding them accountable, as a matter of fact it probably takes away from it, since what they are accountable for is mentoring their kids and ensuring they are doing there work and they can’t do that while doing whatever menial task they would be doing at the school.

By Velatra

October 12, 2005 10:58 AM | Link to this

Dan,

If the parents do not volunteer the eight hours, then they have to find other schools for their children to attend (I thought I answered that already). That is why these children return to the neighboring schools in large droves.

By KABA

October 12, 2005 10:58 AM | Link to this

Dan, I have to disagree with you. Parents who volunteer in their childrens’ schools are showing their children that the school is important to them, and so the work the child does there is also important. Volunteer parents are providing a positive model to their children that helping others is a good thing, and that working is not always about money, but can be about creating a thriving community, no matter how ‘menial’ the task may be.

By MSTeacher

October 12, 2005 11:07 AM | Link to this

I have to respond to “Parent” and others who want us to “just do our jobs” without complaining.

First, have you ever stopped to think about exactly what that job is? I have 153 students in 5 classes in rooms designed to hold 25 students based on a promise 12 years ago to reduce class sizes to that number. Instead, the number of students I teach has gone UP EACH YEAR. This ONE FACTOR more than anything keeps me from doing the best job I can. The time it takes to grade one test with an essay question is unbelievable… not to mention research projects. When ONE student out of 31 in a class decides to be disruptive (what are the odds of that happening with 31 students packed in like sardines?) I have to stop teaching to deal with it. Sometimes it only takes a look, but sometimes I have to sit down, write it up (including documentation of ALL the steps I have taken to alleviate the problem) and then escort the student to the office. Who is doing “my job” while this is going on?

Second, the amount of paper work we have to do has EXPLODED. This is especially true of our work with students who have disabilities. Every modification we make to accomodate these students takes time and again, we have to document EVERYTHING we do. God forbid that a child should make less than a B in my class. Then we have to have a parent conference with a parent whose FIRST inclination atleast 85% of the time is to find out why “I GAVE” their child a C or an F. Did you get the weekly progress reports I sent you by e-mail? Did you see the grades on the papers I returned? Did you look at the midterm progress report? NOW that the report card has come out and the grade is final you want to come in and blame me for it. Where were you when you got that first low score on a test? Where were you when that F came out on the progress report? Where were you when your kid was supposed to be doing his homework? But NOW it’s MY FAULT!?!??

I love my job in spite of these irritations. We have many parents who volunteer in the school. They often do special things for teachers, like providing lunch for us from local restaraunts or watching the kids at lunch so we can enjoy a meal in peace and quiet. They give us money to spend in the classroom. I’m not complaining about “parents”. On the other hand, parents can either make our job easier OR harder by their actions. I think the attitude exhibited by “Parent” tells which she does.

HOW do parents make our job harder? 1) Ignore attempts by us to communicate. 2) Focus on fixing BLAME rather than fixing the problem. 3) Waste our time by calling for a conference because your child made an 89 B instead of a 90 A. Or worse, just to let us us know what a great kid you have. 4) Solve ALL of your kid’s problems for him rather than letting him work some of them out himself. 5) Only show up when you are unhappy with the result (grade) at the end of the grading period and not earlier when it can do your child some good. 6) Assume that whatever happened is MY FAULT.

How can you make our job easier? 1) Communicate by e-mail whenever possible. This takes much less time than phone calls and conferences AND can be handeled at a time when I can give your problem my full attention without worrying about how many things I should be doing while I am talking to you. 2)Check the website for homework and makeup work if your child’s teacher has one. Also use it to keep track of assignments and tests that are coming up. 3)Don’t waste my time. If you REALLY need to see me, don’t just show up…make an appointment. 4) Let your kid grow up and take responsibility for his own actions and let him try to solve his own problems before you jump in. It will make your child more mature and better prepare him for life as an adult. 5) Pay attention to the things we send home. Many of them are important. 6) Assume that I am doing the best that I can for your kid because I probably am. 7) Volunteer at the school when possible.

We don’t ask for much and we give much more than we ask for in return. The truth is though, I usually receive much more in return than I ask for and for that I am grateful.

By Alice

October 12, 2005 11:07 AM | Link to this

Actually, the charter school my children attend is a conversion charter school (it was an existing school that converted to charter status). While many families may move into the area, like we did, because it is good school, many more (we have about 50 percent of our families who live in apartments like we do) just happen to rent in our district. Even those families are expected to follow the rules and about 98 percent of them do. Simply by telling them they have to do some things, seems to motivate people to do the right thing.

By Parent

October 12, 2005 11:17 AM | Link to this

Well, well! It seems that nearly all of you have proven my point. But to make it more clear, read closely. (And for all of the incorrect spellings, I do appologize, but everyone has a down fall.

I am speaking of the complaining teachers, who seek no means to challenge bad behavior, who perpetuate the problem, and who’s first line of defense is to blame a parent.

My child is not perfect, I will be the first to admit it; however, there are steps that I take to make sure I have done everything humanly possible. Here is where the complaining, do nothing teachers need to read closely.

Take advantage of the parents that are helpful. Every other Friday, because I work a 9/80 work week, I spend the day with my child’s class. Sometimes I go exclusively for him, though I tend to participate with the class as a whole. I have spent hours calling parents for his teacher to announce and schedule conferences, field trips, and other things.

Last year, during a conversation with his teacher, she expressed frustration over the lack of parental involvement. When I asked if there was anything I could do she began a list of things, some more difficult than others, and a phone list of other cooperative parents that could help also.

By the 2nd or 3rd month of the school year, the cooperative parents of this class were doing some amazing things! A few of the stay-at-home moms worked with some of the kids that lacked social skills by setting play dates, library party’s, and other fun activities after school with their own children. Some parents served as a ride home on several instances. We pushed the PTA to hold at least a few productive meetings, which all teachers should realize is a tremendous feat.

The point is, quit complaining and do something. You would be suprised how willing some of these parents are, even to help out kids that aren’t theirs.

I never let my child complain about his current teacher. If anything it is a good lesson to learn that there will be people in life you have to work with that you may not neccessarily like all that much. I never let my child know my frustrations with his current teacher either. It will just fuel his problems with her.

I remember well the teachers from my schools that cared less about their students. But I also learned from the teachers that stuck through horrible children, and worse administrators and parents. They were the best teachers because they stuck through it.

Teachers are extremely over worked, under paid, and deal with a lot of unnessary difficulties, but the change has to begin somewhere. Before you go blaming parents, do as much as you can.

Every second that you spend complaining, you’re not finding a solution or a remedy to the problems.

By Velatra

October 12, 2005 11:28 AM | Link to this

KABA,

I agree with you. However, I think that “volunteering” should be a little more specific. For example, there are parents who “volunteer” (well, show up) at functions like Field Day (which is usually the end of the year), but won’t set foot inside his/her child’s classroom all year long.

When I have parents like that, I take that Field Day or skating rink time to talk about their child’s progress. Unfortunately, I don’t teach at Narvie J. Harris, where it appears to be ideal for teachers and students, but I do what I have to do with what I have, wherever I am. Shoot, I’ve even had PTC in the grocery store aisles! I’ve learned that, for the most part, if you appear to be approachable and persistent, some parents actually get off their duff and become more involved in their children’s education. Does it work all the time? No, but any success is better than no success.

By KABA

October 12, 2005 11:43 AM | Link to this

Velatra, I spent many PTA and Booster club hours volunteering throughout my kids’ K-12 years. I define volunteering as ANY gift of helping without pay. My message to parents was always, if you can only give us one hour a year, that will be appreciated, and we won’t hound you for other projects. It was my experience over 16 years that you can expect a small core of permanently available vounteers, a larger core of regularly scheduled but single project volunteers, and then the great majority who show up once or occasionally at fall carnival or field day only.

We found that we built the level of participation steadliy thtough the years by communicating well with the parents, telling them exactly what we needed to raise money for or what projects we needed bodies for, then sticking to our promise of how many hours we would need them. And we THANKED each and every volunteer a lot, each time them helped.

After awhile the once a year field day helper was also helping with reading to kids in the classroom, the fundraiser, or with spaghetti supper night or the talent show. They helped more because they were appreciated and they saw how their contribution helped the school. And they had fun working with other parents in the community.

By Michael H

October 12, 2005 12:01 PM | Link to this

V,

I was afraid I would hurt her self-esteem, so I didn’t want to pile on.

By belleabroad

October 12, 2005 12:14 PM | Link to this

Here are some ideas for how to “entice” those parents to show up for meetings, conferences etc. First, how about finding out about what it is they are most interested in learning about, could it be they are not as interested in educating Johnny becasue they are struggling to work so they power, gas, and other bills are paid? Why not offer parent nights/breakfasts that covers community services that are available to help with all areas of family needs? Once you meet the parents where they ARE, instead of where we want them to be, it becomes a lot easier to then work on educating them or helping them to help their children, in the process helping us as teachers. Offering them choices, which has been mentioned in previous blogs is also an important component. Are there different times to meet, can we do a conference call on your lunch or break? You don’t always have to have a face-to-face conference, though those are always preferred and helpful.
Just a few of my thoughts on this blog subject today. Yes, there are a lot of parents that are not exactly making it easier to teach, and some of those kids certainly don’t make it easier either, however, we do have a responsibility to try different routes to reach the goal.

By DKB

October 12, 2005 12:30 PM | Link to this

I don’t agree with everything at my children’s elementary school, but I have to congratulate them for their initiative and also congratulate the parents on their high rate of participation. All have put the children’s welfare first.

The school begins with parent-teacher night the second week of the school year. At that time the teachers outline their agenda, how they run their classes and what they expect from the children and from the parents. Most of the teachers ask for input from the parents or let the parents vote on how they want certain issues handled. This year they held 2 back to back sessions to accommodate parents with more than one child in the school or who could not attend the earlier session.

All children are required to purchase an agenda for $5 and to carry it to and from school each day. The children are to list their homework assignments in the agenda and the teacher can write notes to the parent that are to be signed off and returned to school the next day (I get a lot of “talking in class” notes).

There are phones in the classrooms so that you can speak to the teacher at any time and they also readily correspond by e-mail. This year report cards will only be handed out at the parent-teacher conferences. I’m sure there will be some who won’t care if they get the report card or not or won’t be able to attend the conferences. I don’t know how those situations will be handled, but I give credit to the school for making this extra effort.

It is, of course, up to the parents to make an extra effort also. Most teachers will do what they can to accommodate all situations. They are usually perfectly willing to hold a telephone conference if you are not able to attend in person or try to arrange a different time to meet.

I had to call in myself 2 years ago. I had a conference scheduled, but my husband had a heart attack that very morning. Once he was stabilized, I called the teacher and kept my appointment. I didn’t tell her I was calling from the emergency room at the hospital, but she was gracious none the less when I apologized for not appearing in person. That situation is a bit extreme, but I wanted to illustrate that it can be done if you really care about your child’s welfare.

(By the way, after triple by pass surgury, my husband is doing fine. My phone conference in the emergency room wasn’t as callous as it may sound either. I think he welcomed the short distraction from the shock of his situation.)

By Dan

October 12, 2005 01:16 PM | Link to this

Velatra you may have answered that Kaba, I was actually playing a little devils advocate and I think it is good to volunteer if you are able (and if you have a worthwhile skill to offer) but if volunteering is required then it isn’t really volunteering now is it. I can see assisting in chaperoneing on field trips and special events or if a professional parent can do a presentation on whatever it is they are expert in. I still don’t like it as a requirement, hey there may be some parents I don’t want anywhere near my kid.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

October 12, 2005 01:21 PM | Link to this

The relationships, between parents and teachers, have truly gone downhill in the past 30 years. Meanwhile, the communication methods have increased substantially. Today, we can send email, phone, hold a web conference or send a note home to the parents. Nevertheless, it doesn’t seem that how we are communicating between teachers and parents is the issue. Most of our problems stem from the lack of understanding and the inability to relate to each other as parents and teachers. As a parent, we want more from our teachers. While at the same time, our teachers, lack the resources to provide some of the tools parents expect for our children and are not compensated enough for their job.

It is a given, that “some� parents fell to actively participate in the education of their children. I wholeheartedly believe that, this is not a new problem. There were children in my class, whose parents never came to our school. The principle would send their registration information home with the child on the first day of school. There were kids who never completed their homework. Many would acknowledge that their parents were unable to help them to complete the assignment. The teachers would allow those kids to use their playtime to receive help and complete assignments. I don’t think that is asking too much.

The problem I see with the communities of 2005 is in fact we are more concerned about our family and no one else. Yes, accountability is an important factor in life. However, children cannot be held accountable for themselves, when the parents lack the skills or will not contribute. What I noticed about the old school teachers were their ability to step in and keep the children moving forward, when the child’s parent could or would not. What many people fell to realize is that school is for the child, not the parents. When the child does not learn to read, write, perform mathematical operations, understand science and acknowledge history – we are not felling the parents, but the child.

When a child learns to perform well in school, that child will learn accountability and move forward in life with their children. What those who preach accountability at all levels fell to realize is, that if “we� the community don’t step in at some point, the unaccountability will continue.

I have heard all the comments about “don’t have children you can’t afford or do not want to be held accountable for�. If we had applied this type of thinking to the Bill of Rights or in the Constitution, many of you would not be alive today. I would not exist, because my ancestors were slaves and my grandparents were poor. Yes, my parents were educated and are accountable for my sister and I. However, my grandparents had people in the community who helped to make that possible. My mother “often� talked about those excellent African-American teachers of the 50’s and 60’s. Those teachers rarely saw the parents of their students, but they somehow managed to produce productive citizens. They also lacked resources and received even less payment for their service to the community.

Michael H, Please take the time out of your busy schedule and correct my mistakes.

By DB

October 12, 2005 01:28 PM | Link to this

Everyone: If you want to make parents accountable by requiring useless parent conferences, dream on! Conferences are so overrated. You simply deal with the kids. That will make them more self-accountable in the long-run. If they don’t behave or perform up to certain expectations after a few chances, it’s time to kick them out and let their parents worry about educating and watching them. They abused their “right” to use taxpayers money to educate themselves by taking that right away from others. That way both the parent and the kids learn something. And the kid can feel free to come back the next year and try again. Of course, our laws won’t allow our kids to be responsible for their own actions. That’s why we go looking everywhere else, and they miss the whole point. This whole topic is a manifestation of that.

Conferences are so backwards these days. They’re all about being “touchy-feely” while sheltering the kids from real life when the truth is that Johnny should be facing real consequences for his actions and apologizing to Principal, Teacher, Mom and Dad, and John C. Taxpayer for his behavior or lack of effort.

I don’t know where we lost this, but when a kid misbehaves or refuses to do work, it’s the kid’s choice, not the parents’. The parent needs only a call or letter to make them realize what’s going on. They either support the school, or they don’t. If they do, use it. If they don’t, leave the parent out of it.

I haven’t had a conference in 4 years! And my students learn a great deal about being responsible for themselves. And the most conferences I had were absolutely useless because the reason we’re having it in the first place is because the parents have failed. And no conference will fix that.

By dan

October 12, 2005 01:48 PM | Link to this

DB you make some very good points but I think that lack of conferences that you spoke of would only work in high school. I think the bulk of these blogs are about elementary and middle school conferences. You are right though that most kids today are sheltered. Accountablitly for their actions is few and far between. To many excuses are available to the kids and kids.

By DB

October 12, 2005 01:54 PM | Link to this

Amazed: I agree with most of what you said on that last post. However, I don’t agree with your comment below:

“However, children cannot be held accountable for themselves, when the parents lack the skills or will not contribute.”

Don’t underestimate children! They are perfectly capable of learning how to behave regardless of their parents. Here’s an example. My kids have friends next door that show up every other weekend to be with their dad. They’re quite out of control when they’re at their dad’s house because he has the “They’re just kids…” attitude, and he let’s them walk all over him. However, when they come to play at my house, they’re little angels because they know they will be sent home if they misbehave. If schools had some authority to do just that, you’d be surprised how well kids could learn to be civil in public. That is the exact problem. I don’t have to even talk to their father(or have a conference), and they’ll behave and even listen to me. The same goes for my classroom. I work at a private school. When I say something, they listen, even if at home they can be as disrespectful as they want. They know they will get a consequence if they don’t behave, and they know they’ll fail if they don’t do their work. And believe me, parental support is not a given at a private school. In fact, I would dare say that parents tend to be even more “enabling” in many cases. The great thing is that you can tell those type of parents when they’re not helping, and you can take them out of the situation if needed. And, that whole system creates a school where kids learn true self-accountability.

It’s natural for every kid to get away with whatever they can. All you have to do is set the limits, period.

By DB

October 12, 2005 02:01 PM | Link to this

Yes, I keep thinking it’s about high schoolers. However, I still think people underestimate little kids, and that’s where it all starts.

By dan

October 12, 2005 02:08 PM | Link to this

DB the problem with public schools is the lack of true ability of a teacher to punish the child. We write them up and the concequences are a joke to them. Most kids get the day off in ISS. I agree that the schools need to get tougher. however the state government is judging the schools according to discipline. Also, the school is telling the teacher you have to have good classroom management but if a teacher writes up a lot of kids then they are looked at as not affective in doing their jobs.

By dan

October 12, 2005 02:20 PM | Link to this

I teach high school as well. I use taugh love. I am hard on the kids and make them be reaponsible. I have a poster on my wall that says “He that is good at making excuses is seldom good at anything else” I live by that poster. If a child is not paying attention in my class then he/she has to stand up. If they don’t have their homework I ask them why. I do not accept slacking. I beleive that in most cases high school conferences are a joke. We send progress reports home every six weeks. I email progress weekly. We teachers are available for help before and after school. At some point the responsibility has to be the kids. My wife teaches elementary and that is a different situation. Conferences are a must and parent involvement should be a given.

By DB

October 12, 2005 02:41 PM | Link to this

Dan: I totally understand. I’ve been there. All of it has to change. The whole system is backwards. It’s taken a long time for it to get this way, and it will take a long time to reverse itself, if it ever does.

The ones losing out are the kids who graduate thinking there are no consequences for their actions, and they think whenever they act up, everyone will argue about the blaming everyone else and leave them alone or give them some joke of a consequence. Or they’ll say, “Don’t do that again honey; it’s bad.” Or mommy and daddy will come in and put the teachers in their place. And they learn that they get an “A” and showers of compliments for coming to school on time or just doing their homework. The respect for learning is gone, and today’s work ethic is horrible. Only in real life, they’ll find out they get fired or put in jail. How sad it is.

By SWC

October 12, 2005 03:59 PM | Link to this

Well, If Dan were my child’s teacher then I’m very glad that the teachers cannot punish the child to the extent that some of you might propose. He still thinks that John C. from days ago, whose child was mistaken for another child, is an irresponsible parent protecting “little Johnny”. Dan seems to think that he is infallible because he’s a teacher, and that this infallibility extends to an incredible ability to know exactly what happened at a PT meeting that he did not attend.

We were all students once and all remember good and bad teachers (kinda like parents) and I certainly wouldn’t want to give carte blanche “punishment” rights to teachers if they can’t even correctly identify the culprit, or to teachers who have superhuman extra-sensory abilities not shared by we mortals.

What happened to John C. (and similar experiences I and other parents have had) can really stick in the craw of a parent, so to all of you who seem to universally dismiss us as modern day disasters, think about the power that you have over our kids. And if kids are getting “A”s that don’t deserve it, whose fault it that?

And, to all those teachers who say, “Its’s not my responsibility to raise your kid”, that’s true, but don’t forget that you spend more time with our children than we do (not because we ignore our kids, but the school day is longer than time spent at home) so you certainly have an enormous influence and responsiblility, and it would be nice if some of you didn’t have it stuck in your head like a broken record that they are mostly a bunch of hopeless brats.

You want to throw everything out the window and start over? How? What specific suggestions do you have, other than corporal punishment.

If there are so many horrible children and parents in your district and all you can do is complain about it then perhaps a transfer might be in order? My son’s classmates are really terrific kids for the most part, with very few exceptions - maybe 1 or 2 bad apples in each class. There are a lot of great kids out there - you just need to find them.

By HS Science

October 12, 2005 04:52 PM | Link to this

Much has been said on this issue and much is to the point. The most to the point answers are those that say keep teaching anyhow, and that is what we 99.9% do. This is our chosen profession and the bottom line is that we are here to do our best to educate children. Some of the parents seem to think that teachers are often cry babies and to that point I want to say YES WE ARE CRY BABIES. We are crying because we are hurt. We are hurt because we love what we do and we are not able to do our job to the fullest.

At the end of each day when I lay down I often feel empty because I have not reached all of the students. Parents may not believe this but many teachers care about the sucess of the students just like a parent. We are crying because often times we feel like a single parent with nowhere to turn to for help for a troubled child. Let me try to put it in perspective for those parents.

A parent has sometimes as many as 18 years to produce a child that will be a benifit to society, we have either 4 1/2 months to 9 months to produce a benifit to society. How would a parent feel if they were told that their child had to be potty trained by a certain time or else they would be a failure? How would a parent feel if they were working hard to potty train the child but the other parent would not work with them and try to keep the child in pampers? That’s how we feel when we are trying to do our best for our students and the other parent (the one the child lives with) will not talk to us or is working against us.

How does it feel when you have others always telling you how to raise your child? Telling you that “if you do this” or “if you did that” your child would be better. How would a parent feel if strangers were to say “that child would do better if they had a different parent, because you are doing a sorry job.? That’s how many of us teachers feel when we constantly hear “well, private school…”

We love what we do, and just like any parent there are times when we must simply ask “What am I to do with this child?” We are asking this because we care.

As for a question someone posed as to why teachers don’t stay as long as they use to. Why are people getting divorced at a higher rate? Some are able to stay in an abusive relationship - parent complaints, uncontrolable students, disrespectful students, and mountains of CYA paperwork. Some just ask for their walking papers and look for a better situation.

By Dan

October 13, 2005 08:52 AM | Link to this

HS science, Your words truly appear heart felt and if those feelings are evident to your students I am sure you have had some wonderful moments to go with the empty ones. Indeed in any area of life, the elation of successes are inversely proportional to the sadness of failing in the same endeavor. Let me suggest the other side of your perspective.
and please understand my intent is not to be argumentative.
To a parent yes, we have 18 yrs with the child and from a parents perspective, the school has 12 yrs, not 4-9 months, (that is a fairly narrow and selfish perspective that quite frankly propagates some of the problems like graduating illiterate 18 yr olds), sure their are issues with individual teachers (as you have with indvidual parents) but the comments on this board are typically about the education system in general and more appropriately discussed as a 12 yrs process not a 9 month segment. You mention potty training, well kids are not allowed in pre K unless they are trained so right off parents do know how it feels. As far as your example of people telling you if you do this or that you would be a better parent etc. Using this board as a barometer, I suggest that the teachers here tell the parents how poorly they are doing as much or more than the other way around, and while saying someone is not performing their job can be a personal affront, I don’t think it stings quite as much as being told you are not a good parent. As I stated to open this post your words appear sincere and hearfelt, but I recognized the opportunity to present a stark counterpoint that could possibly illustrate how and perhaps why these blogs sometimes get heated. People on opposing sides with common goals and a different perspective. hang in there we need more teachers who care

By dan

October 13, 2005 10:32 AM | Link to this

SWC If I were your childs teacher I would be blessed to have a parent like you. You sound very pationate about your childs education and wanting the best for them. However, I do not fully agree with your comment before about treating a parent teacher conference like a courtroom and making the teacher prove that John C son/daughter was the trouble maker. What happened to the time when parents were embarrased if their child acted out and didn’t “question” and make the teacher feel like they are on the stand. Lets get past whether Johnny C’s son/daughter was guilty or not because I wasn’t there and either were you. I don’t have the answers but I know that something has to change. Hs teacher in the above post is on the right track. We all need to stop finger pointing and try to work together. I can say that I come into parent teacher conferences with preconceived notions about parents of some of the kids. That needs to change and I am trying to be more open minded. Also, what needs to change is parents preconceived notion when they come into a PTC that there must be something wrong in the classroom and not with the behavior of the child.

By Dave

October 13, 2005 10:37 AM | Link to this

SWC: We’re not suggesting corporal punishment, just real consequences. You’ve been on these blogs long enough to know exactly what I mean. Quit making a mountain out of a mole hill. We’re talking about taking out the trash so real learning and real teaching can occur, so people actually aspire to become teachers out of passion. I mean telling kids(and their parents) that they used up their “get free education” cards when they’ve failed 3 out of 6 classes and everyone has catered to them and wasted taxpayers’ money in trying to lead them to water when they don’t want the darn water! And they used up their “get free education” card when they disrupted their classes more than three times. It has nothing to do with corporal punishment. It could be something as simple as telling a kid you failed because you didn’t do the required work, period, and sticking to your word. Then tell the kid to start studying or he’ll have to be asked to stay home and work. It could be as simple as getting rid of the sugar-coating administrators and counselors and holding kids to high expectations. It could be as simple as saying you have 2 hours detention for insulting a fellow student where you will pick up litter on campus, and if you don’t go, you’ll be expelled. That’s all. And those 1 or 2 bad kids you mention very easily ruin it for the rest, and they should be kicked out for the sake of kids and parents that realize school is for learning. And under real leadership, those kids will be gone or mowing the lawn, or they will learn that they have to cooperate to get ahead in life. However, in most areas, there are more than just 1 or 2. I’m not sure where you live. It’s these extreme cases that ruin the whole system.

As for giving A’s for nothing, it’s not entirely the teacher’s fault as you suggest. You see, because schools(administrators) are judged based on test results and performance, discipline records, etc., teachers are pressured to give out good grades and pressured not to make waves with parents. You don’t see that going on, but it does. When little Johnny fails a course because he didn’t do crap, the teacher is the one explaining the failure, not Johnny. Administrators reprimand teachers for disciplinary problems when teachers have absolutely no support and have too many kids in each class for the conditions. The result is that most teachers’ expectations drop, especially when you have 80% of the kids barely doing any work or behaving properly(not an exaggeration). Teachers with expectations face two fates, either fight the fight and get fired eventually, or get burnt out from all pressure and bureaucracy.

Make public education a “no-nonsense” institution once again as it was in the past when America rose above the world. You’re right; don’t trust all teachers. Some are idiots; believe me! Most are not. But trust most until you believe otherwise. The only reason we have a lot of imcompetent teachers is because the conditions have made it so school districts pretty much take anyone with a pulse because they can’t fill teaching positions. And most other teachers have been bent over by the system. I’m sure there was a lot more to the case of mistaken identity to which you so obviously cling(one comment!), and if not, it may have had to do with the fact that there are 15 hooligans out of the 30 or 40 in each class, which is quite tough to handle. Out of those 15, most will cave under the pressure of real authority and become well adjusted kids, and few will need to sent home or sent away to a “behavioral” school. Personally, I don’t believe there are many teachers dumb enough not to know which students are misbehaving, and any such teacher that does should be fired. If the story is true, it’s just a case on an incompetent moron of a teacher, and no one should judge all other teachers based on that one example, just as I have not judged you as a parent as many others have. And until we install real authority and real expectations, are kids will continue to be conditioned into thinking the world revolves around them, and we will continue to pump out mindless adults that continue the cycle by having kids.

I’ve been in both situations. I’ve taught public ed up in New York where a student of mine brought bombs and shotguns to school, and now I work in a Private School. Running schools like Private Schools is definitely the answer. Behavioral and academic expectations need to be high, and the responsibility needs to rest on the students. Everything else will then take care of itself, and only then can you start judging schools, teachers, and administrators on performance results. Even then performance-based assessment is quite subjective.

So, SWC, when you finish your dissertion, I suggest you go and sub in a few public schools and get a real feeling for what’s going on. Go to suburban, rural, and inner city schools. Or better yet, why don’t you just become a teacher for a while?

And, SWC, we do find those good kids, and the problem is that we feel the most sorry for those kids that aren’t challenged because the classroom is full of deadbeats that could care less about going to school. The problem is that public schools are wasting all their time “pulling up” and catering to the deadbeats instead of making them pull themselves up.

These days, kids have become experts in projecting blame onto everyone around them. And the problem is that we let them. I’m tired of the sob stories, the ADD, the ADHD, the LD etc. The few that actually have problems are neglected because there are so many that truly have nothing wrong other than having overprotective parents that don’t allow their kids to develop.

Excuses, excuses…

By DB

October 13, 2005 10:38 AM | Link to this

Oops! Dave = DB

By dan

October 13, 2005 11:16 AM | Link to this

DB I would cut and paste your post and put dan on it. I feel the same.

By DB

October 13, 2005 12:12 PM | Link to this

Dan: There are a lot more of us out there, too. I’ve about boiled over with frustration. I’m tired of it. You try to hold kids to high expectations to teach them something about life, then all the “enablers” come in and prolong their immaturity by giving them a bunch of excuses and actually making them feel good about their lack of initiative! And we wonder why we have a bunch of idiots in the streets that have no respect or others and have no ambition to work hard and make things better for themselves.

By DB

October 13, 2005 12:14 PM | Link to this

Everywhere I go, I see incompetence!

By SWC

October 13, 2005 12:32 PM | Link to this

DB (or Dave?) The “John C” incident was not an isolated situation. “Parent” received the same treatment. I have received the same treatment. The difference is that I assumed that John C. was stating facts about what happened, I did not assume that he was an overprotective parent of a worthless child. There was absolutely no reason not to believe John C. or to make dismissive comments about “Little Johnny”. This was a classic example of a rush to judgement. I chose this situation because it perfectly illustrated the point that I have been trying to make about teachers drawing unfounded conclusions about parents. I am quite frankly stunned at the reaction to John C and others. If you want our help and empathy, assuming the worst of us is not an effective technique. In no way do I “judge” all teachers or make broad generalizations about teachers, my comments are specifically in reaction to specific comments or ideas on this blog.

Why are you raving at me so much? I understand your frustrations with the system, but don’t blame me - once again, I am not the problem. You have fallen into the trap of lecturing me, and using the tired old “why don’t you work in a classroom” argument. I’m not asking you to work in my office. You don’t know how much time I’ve spent in the classroom anyway, so be careful about making another assumption.

It is not necessary to be a teacher to have opinions about teaching methods. Indeed, my son has had teachers who had all sorts of degrees (something they loved to remind me of), but had no school-age children. Those teachers lacked some experience that I as a parent and woman twice their age had. They were making poor decisions based on what they had been taught, or some strange, pre-conceived ideas, not what they had learned.

I would also suggest that if you want to set an example for your students and earn the respect of parents, you refrain from using terms like “throw out the trash” or the vulgar word “crap”. The private schools that I attended would never have tolerated that sort of language.

I have attended public schools and private schools. I am very aware of the differences and the challenges. When I switched from public to private school, despite getting straight As and being in “gifted” classrooms, I had to stay back a grade because of vast differences in the curriculum. I agree that we should follow more of the private school models. Here are just a few suggestions to narrow the gap, based on my positive private school experiences:

Also, figure out what you think is right and wrong with NCLB and other standards. Write your representatives about areas that you think need change or revision (backed up with facts and examples, not generalizations). i.e. Too much paperwork? Offer suggestions about what can be eliminated or minimized. Get together with fellow teachers and formulate a well-thought out plan. Even small changes can make a big difference.

By DB

October 13, 2005 01:30 PM | Link to this

SWC: I’m not judging you. And I’m not judging “Parent” as I said any teacher like that should be fired if it is true. I’m not going to take any story on this blog as gospel. I’m just saying that situations like that are few, and problematic children and parents are many. Sometimes my tone is misunderstood. I’m not saying you or “Parent” are problematic as I have no idea, but to take one story and go overboard against teachers is exactly the same as you saying teachers are too quick to judge parents. You can’t say that teachers are too quick to negatively judge based on this blog of about 4 teachers, one of your own experiences, and one from some other blogger called Parent. You need to see the other side of things from inside schools before you judge. Being a student has little merit. We were all students once, and I didn’t see a thing until I became a teacher. I’m not judging you, I’m just telling you things are different. As a teacher, you’re lucky if you get through to one student these days. And I’m not embellishing anything.

I do think some of the accusations on these blogs are a bit excessive; and I want no part of it. I’m judging all bad parents, not people on this blog in particular. And believe me, it’s tough to look for the positive side of things when you’re a public school teacher. Luckily, I’m not a public teacher any more.

I’m just saying that bad parents and bad students are becoming the norm, nothing against you other than disagreing with your opinions(not calling you out as a bad parent-big difference). Expectations are being lowered, and excuses are rampant. Accountability for one’s self is all but gone. I agree with your suggestions with exception to writing representatives and having State control. I’ve done all that, and no one really cares unless they’re in the trenches. I’m now going to work on changing society instead of the minds of politicians.

Also, I don’t remember anything about John C., and little Johnny was not referring in any way to John C. I think you’re biased in looking for me to be negative. I think you may be misunderstanding me.

Also, it was your “raving” at teachers that put me into motion. I really don’t care, but to see anyone deride teachers like you have is no different than those teachers that stereotype parents. Not all teachers are like that. But you’ve demonstrated you are as a parent.

Also, see Dan’s last comment for the rest of my opinion.

By DB

October 13, 2005 01:37 PM | Link to this

SWC: If you meant school uniforms(attire) by the “Statewide Uniform Policy”, I totally agree with you. I think I first misunderstood it for a “uniform Statewide policy”.

And by no means do I think teachers are always right. However, if it comes to the point when conferences are needed, you bet it’s probably the student being the problem. I personally think conferences are useless for the most part. And many times conferences are initiated by parents that want to “straighten out” or coerce teachers. You also have to keep that in mind.

By DB

October 13, 2005 01:43 PM | Link to this

SWC: Your comment: “The difference is that I assumed that John C. was stating facts about what happened, I did not assume that he was an overprotective parent of a worthless child.”

I didn’t assume that either. You just assumed I did. Your doing exactly what you’re accusing others of doing.

By DB

October 13, 2005 01:45 PM | Link to this

SWC: I think we’re just misunderstanding each other and getting hyped up over nothing when we agree on a lot of things.

By SWC

October 13, 2005 02:49 PM | Link to this

DB - I meant school uniforms/attire. Glad you agree.

I do not believe that I “went overboard about teachers”. I wasn’t complaining about teachers in general. I was addressing specific comments that were made here. My complaint, in a nutshell is the reaction of teachers on this blog to parents’ comments on this blog. It is one thing to disagree with their comments, it is quite another to attack their character.

You miss my point about what I meant when I said, “The difference is that I assumed that John C. was stating facts about what happened, I did not assume that he was an overprotective parent of a worthless child.â€? I was not referring to anything you said when I wrote that. I was saying that too often teachers make assumptions about the writer of a comment and assume that the writer is at fault or assume that they are another “problem parent”. These are actual accusations that are made, not vague inferences. Many people chose to knock John C. and parent for their comments, and assume all sorts of negative things about them, and this sort of unfounded parent/child-bashing occurs all the time. In John Cs case there was absolutely NO way that anyone could conclude that his child was really at fault and the parent was coddling his child. It was a very reasonable story about his bad experience at a PT conference, and he was immediately accused of being an awful parent with a brat for a child who was unfairly blaming a teacher. You say that I am “making a mountain out of a mole hill”, but I am using the John C and Parent examples as metaphors for all the false assumptions that are made here, and this is, in my opinion, an important point.

For example, If I chose to say things like, “I bet DB is one of those lazy teachers who just sits on her butt and collects a paycheck at the taxpayers expense”, you’d be right to be peeved. Well, that sort of thing is said about parents who write on this blog all the time. Not that specific accusation of course, but general assessments as to the character and abilities of parents, or lack thereof.

By SWC

October 13, 2005 02:53 PM | Link to this

DB - I wrote the above before I saw your previous comment to me. I don’t want you to think that I’m ignoring that comment and carrying on!

By DB

October 14, 2005 09:21 AM | Link to this

SWC: Ironically, our interaction has been a microcosm of the average Parent-Teacher conference. :) We both came in with our guard up and ready to pounce. I apologize.

By Tiffany

October 14, 2005 09:42 AM | Link to this

I am complete hysteria about the comments by some of the teachers! I do admit that the classrooms are overcrowed, but are you really listening to yourselves???? I read a comment by someone who even admitted to herself and everyone else that she could not perform her job to the best of her ability due to this overcrowding. That is an administration problem, not a lack of support from the parents. I agree with one reader who stated “if you are unhappy, change jobs”. If you can’t “perform to the best of your abilities” you should seek another school or a change in careers. I read another comment by a teacher who tried to be facetious by “grading” a comment. All I can say is I can’t believe how ADULTS are being so infantine. I was educated in the public school system, and I know several teachers. I envited them to read the comments for this forum, and readers, NOT ALL TEACHERS IN THE PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM WITH CROWDED CLASSROOMS AND UNSUPPORTIVE PARENTS, feel the same way. Don’t give up on your school or children.

By luvs2teach

October 14, 2005 12:17 PM | Link to this

HSscience and DB - Amen, amen, amen…

This is addressed to SWC and others who read and respond to this blog negatively:

People (ALL people) need to realize a couple things when they are participating in a blog. First, some people will post inflammatory comments just to stir things up. Second, some people have personal or political agendas (Mr. Liberty, etc). Finally, TONE is missing from written words. It’s hard to tell if someone is angry or joking or sarcastic. When we read a post, we are making assumptions about the writer based on a very limited image of him/her - the post itself. When someone uses a term like “whining,” that, too, is an assumption.

SWC Quote (from 180 Day Myth, 9/28/05)

“I have had it with teachers whining about how stressed out they are and the demands for frequent breaks.”

I reread Ashley’s post, and she mentioned the students first, not the teachers (and the teachers’ “break” was for work - planning and grading). She did mention the statement about parents using school as a baby sitter - more on that later…

This is an EDUCATION blog. Its purpose is to discuss problems in education. Educational problems affect parents, teachers, and community members. The posts I read are from all three - parents, teachers, and concerned members of a community. There are MANY stereotypes being promoted by MANY participants. The “school as a baby-sitter myth” is one, mentioned not only by teachers, but also by other parents - it feeds right into the working mother vs. stay-at-home mother debate. There are parents who would have to find and pay for other child care if their children were not in school. There are parents who are more than happy to dump their child off at school in the morning so they don’t have to deal with them for the day. These are not necessarily the same parents, and “problem children” don’t generally come from the former group.

SWC, you complain that teachers are berating you, yet when I checked the blog archives, the person who knocked you as an SUV driver posted as “Notateacher”! You complain that teachers are being horrible to you yet you write things like “Here we go again snidely dismissing concerns of working parents! Let me guess - You’re a teacher aren’t you?” The quote you wrote this to was, “Negatives: Parents who view school as day care will be upset that every few weeks that day care is not available.” This was in a post about year-round schedules. It doesn’t sound snide to me, and it’s true: one of the biggest arguments against year-round schools comes from working parents in the community. It could cause scheduling problems for them.

You also wrote, “I was saying that too often teachers make assumptions about the writer of a comment and assume that the writer is at fault or assume that they are another “problem parent.â€? I feel you do the same thing, assuming that the writer is just “another whiny, overpaid teacher.” I read very few posts on this blog where a parent comes across as a problem. Nor do I read many where it sounds like the teacher is the problem. The most negative comments I read come from people who are dissatisfied with the general state of public education and are throwing negative comments out towards both parents AND the teachers (Sly, SET, and Mr. Liberty come to mind).

Yeah, I AM a teacher. And a working parent. And I was a working parent for 9 years before I became a teacher. I was in the military and corporate America. I worked for 2 small businesses and 1 huge corporation. EVERY job has its ups and downs, its pros and cons. Quit telling us to “find another job” and that our job is easy, and we’ll quit suggesting that you come spend some time in our shoes.

Prior to teaching I did the substitute thing, the volunteer in the classroom thing, the Girl Scout leader thing - while all were helpful, NONE, not ONE, was anything like having my own classroom. In my classroom, I try to treat my students as I would want my child to be treated. I expect my parents to do for their children what I would do for mine (and most do). When I post, I try to look at things as a parent AND as a teacher. Most of the time, what’s good for one, is good for the other. I like reading posts like those by Karen Armsby - as a parent she offers great insight and good suggestions.

I try to be positive and upbeat in my posts, but I’m not sure I always come across that way. I love my job, but it has its problems. I have some terrific parents and some fantastic kids, but I have some kids and parents that are problems - luckily they are in the minority.

As a PARENT, I worry about the negative impact that these children (whose parents don’t have the same standards as our community) will have in the classroom that MY child is in. I have contacted principals to get a child removed from my child’s classroom, and I recommend others to do the same. It’s time we as a community got together and started to insist for better for our kids. If a parent has little to no control over a child, how can we as a community expect teachers to - particularly when we have removed most meaningful consequences from the classroom setting? It bothers me when I can’t get in touch with parents to have a conference about their child, but it bothers me more when my other 29 students have to put up with bad behavior because I can’t get that child removed from my classroom.

Sorry this is so long, and slightly off-topic, but I have been reading this blog for a couple days now, and getting more and more irate. SWC, not to single you out (because my comments were meant for others as well), but you seem to set a double standard for yourself regarding what’s OK for you to post, and what’s OK for others. Whether you mean them to or not, your comments come across as inflammatory. Today, though, I was very impressed with your list of suggestions, and I agree completely with the first three, and somewhat with numbers 4 and 5 - not sure what multi-storied architecture would accomplish, though.

Peace out, all - have a great weekend! BTW - I wrote this at home, at night in word, and then cut-and-pasted at lunch - no tax dollars wasted…

By dan

October 14, 2005 01:11 PM | Link to this

luvs, some great points. You seem like you really care and are a great teacher. Keep it up.

By SWC

October 14, 2005 02:04 PM | Link to this

Luvs2teach - I understand what you are saying, and I don’t want to be inflammatory. I do want to clear up a few things. My quote about “whining teachers” WAS in reference to teachers who want to get rid of summer vacation, because “they need more breaks”. I should have clarified that, and also that I wasn’t only referring to teachers in this blog - this is also from conversations that I have had with teachers - many of whom have never worked in the private sector and have just started teaching! Also, I have read the “school is not daycare” line, not just on this Blog, but on some sort of official Year Round Schooling advocates site, where the teacher/administrator/educator was completely unconcerned about how much of a disruption it would be to working parents to start breaking up the school year. It was a “not my problem” attitude, which, when one considers that 80% or more of families are both working (or single moms/dads), is the height of arrogance. These very reasonable concerns are often completely dismissed and it is truly galling since these same teachers do not have to worry about where to put their kids as they will be home with them! When I hear teachers complain about how they need more breaks, more workdays, more planning time, I admit it - It sounds well…whiny. Our school calendar in S.C. was eaten up by “work days” - 6 days when school was in session that could have been part of summer vacation, or another week somewhere else in the calendar. In Kentucky, where they have this 4 day school week thing, one of the reasons is not to save gasa, but to give teachers more planning time. Having worked my butt of for a major corporation, and with the same situation continuing for my husband, It is difficult to hear the “I need a break line” and not think “you’re kidding”. In the private sector there are no “work days” no “planning time” no days off for election day, very few Federal holidays observed, and about 12 days a year for vacation. One teacher/parent actually wrote in to say that because she had a 2 year old toddler in day-care that she too had to worry what to do with her child because she wasn’t actually in school. My response to that? Incredulous!

My point about the “SUV” line had nothing to do with teachers, it was about the INCREDIBLE inferences made about contributors with NO evidence to back it up. When I said, “Let me guess - you’re a teacher, right?”, I’ll admit it was a bit presumptious, but I believe it was in context to the school calendar issue, and I’m pretty darned sure that I was correct, because the message was “its not my problem what you do with your child when school’s out and we’ll make the calendar whatever we want it to be because we need a break”.

Parents are criticized a lot on this blog - specifically, but also generally. If you read the math blog of today, the theme is repeated again, where teachers complain that it is the parents fault that the kids don’t know their mulitiplication tables. Well, as a parent, I have to say that the PRIMARY responsiblity to learn these math facts is with the schools, with the parents using flash cards et cetera as an extra push. We need to instill a love of learning and sense of responsibility, and supplement where necessary, but it is NOT our job to teach basic skills! I have a hard time understanding how a school cannot teach the multiplication table. Sorry, but I do!

I read tons of despairing comments from teachers that sound as if the parents and students are SO awful, that society has declined so much, that the situation is just HOPELESS. I don’t think that that “attitude” of overwhelming negativity makes for a good teacher (nor would that attitude serve one well in business either).

I never suggested that they “get a new job”, only that they may want to TRANSFER to a district where they won’t feel so miserable that they end up spreading their misery around! I’m not suggesting that they give up teaching, just change the environment where they work. Misery does not serve the students or teacher well. It is one thing to feel overwhelmed, with too much paperwork, poorly behaved students, uncooperative parents, et cetera; it is another thing to take that to the next level and deride parents and students collectively as a blight on society. If one gets to that point, its probably time for a change of venue.

Re the “multi-storied school buildings”, I think this is important because we keep growing out of the buildings that we have. We have rules/laws about how much land we need for each school, but that land is hard to come by. If we built “up” we can house more students in the same community without reverting to trailers, or without having to spend millions buying land and building extra schools - money that could go to teaching our kids!

I hope that you too have a great weekend!

By DB

October 14, 2005 02:14 PM | Link to this

Tiffany: There are a few problems with what you say. If all unhappy teachers changed jobs or districts, there would be no teachers in cities, and there would be very few elsewhere. Don’t get me wrong. If you don’t like teaching, you’d better get out of it as soon as you can. There’s nothing worse than a teacher who’s mad at the world. You have a few of those in every school.

Also, overcrowding is not a problem if the kids are well-behaved, so, in a way, it is the fault of the “bad” parents. I once taught in a place with over 60 students in one class, and there were no problems. Why? It’s because everyone acted the way they were supposed to act. If there were proper discipline and parental support(actually just take the bad kids elsewhere), you could have 30-40 kids in a class and be productive. However, with little kids, it may be different. I’m talking about high schoolers.

By luvs2teach

October 14, 2005 02:31 PM | Link to this

SWC - fair enough! I totally understand where you’re coming from - I think what happens a lot is that teachers take ANY criticism of public education as criticism of them and get defensive. I have long contended that it’s a 3 person job - the parent, the teacher, and the student - with the emphasis on “student” growing more each year of school. If the student isn’t learning then it’s up to all 3 to figure out why and move forward.

There are unfortunately parents who are overwhelmed or underprepared and their kids suffer as a result. All of our children suffer when those kids get in a classroom setting that they can’t handle. I don’t have an answer, but what we’re doing now isn’t working for everybody. It might take facing some hard realities and making some hard and drastic choices to enact change.

As far as the “break” thing goes, I didn’t understand it either until I was in a classroom. Teaching is really two jobs - teaching (actually lecturing, facilitating activities, answering questions, etc) and the administrative work to support that (namely grading, planning, and conferencing as well as whatever CYA paperwork your school, district, or state require). While there are teachers who can get that work done in their regular 8 hour day, most can not - at least not without sacrificing some “teaching” time - you know, instead giving kids the ever popular busy work or throwing in a video for them to ignore.

As much as I look forward to my breaks, I’ll admit I speand a lot of it working on stuff for school - it’s when I have time to research new activities, work on my class website, practice my Spanish for my ESOL kids. Most teachers I know use that time for similar stuff. There are night and weekends when I’m grading that I wish I still worked the hours I did in corporate America - more than 40, yes, but less than I work now…or mornings where I think about about calling in sick and realize it’s not worth the aggravation of coming up with sub lessons.

For most teachers, these aren’t the problems. The problem is being held accountable for things we have little or no control of. My favorite analogy is that we don’t blame the dentist for the child’s cavities - we blame the parents that didn’t make him brush his teeth or allowed her to eat all kinds of sugar.

Hope that helps you understand our frustration better - BTW, I don’t like the blanket assumptions (from anyone), either - it just gets us nowhere. Some people though like to blog to stir things up! (And I’m not a fan of the grammar police, either - to them, I apologize now for any errors I may have made).

By DB

October 14, 2005 03:40 PM | Link to this

SWC: Keep in mind that although many teachers are in misery, they tend to hide that misery in the classroom. So what you hear on these blogs isn’t necessarily what the kids hear in class. In fact, these blogs are probably more like a “Vent” for teachers, so what you see here isn’t all that representative of the classroom. And keep in mind that most teachers, when they say “bad kids” know deep down somewhere they are usually good kids gone bad due to their parents, friends, or the school system. It’s frustrating to know what a kid needs only to watch the parents or the laws prevent them from developing. And, sorry, but I truly believe, in the case of really bad kids, that the only way to teach them is to be hard on them and then reward them when they change their ways. You can’t do that in today’s society.

Also, I ran my own hectic business for 10 years in addition to about every other job under the sun, and teaching is no different. Well, it is different in that it’s much more challenging. Teaching is actually the toughest job I’ve had so far, but I love it. And while you’re working, a good teacher puts in at least 80 hours per week, not including talking to parents and what not. Besides, if you want teachers that are mentally stable, you’d probably support for having the vacation time. Personally, I think it’s too clumped. A few weeks here and there would probably be better. I suppose there are some bad teachers that don’t do much work, but I don’t see any where I work.

As for your 12 days per year, that’s your problem. Having vacation as a teacher doesn’t mean no one should complain. Most people in the U.S. get into a situation where they have to work, work, work, work in order to carry out the superficial “American Dream” and get by. I’m not saying that’s your case, but that’s the way most people are. If you want more vacation, it’s time to get another job. I sound like all the others now. It’s no mystery to me why the family has taken the back seat for most people, and money is the top priority. That’s another topic altogether which is in an indirect way part of the problem in education.

By SWC

October 14, 2005 04:02 PM | Link to this

DB - fair enough, except for the “if you get 12 days a year thats your problem comment”.

A lot of educators are rearranging the school calendar so that we can’t take our precious 12 days in the summer when we want to, in order to provide “breaks” for the teachers. We don’t want a vacation in February (for example) when its raining and miserable out -We want to take our vacation in August.

The fact is that MOST people only get 12 days on average, so we are in the majority. Think about it - its hard to feel too sympathetic for people who get more vacation time than any other profession and then want to rearrange the calendar to suit their need for “breaks”!

Using your argument, I could say that its not my problem that you need breaks! It works both ways, but the fact is that teachers get more time off already.

And, I certainly would object if they followed the Kentucky model and switched to a 4 day week/longer school day model so teachers could have more planning time (the reason cited in one district).

By luvs2teach

October 14, 2005 04:37 PM | Link to this

Playing devil’s advocate…

I hate August in Georgia. I don’t want to take my vacation then. My family goes skiing in New Hampshire every February; I can’t go because I can’t take vacation time then. As pretty as April is, it’s ridiculous to take a break 6 weeks before the school year ends.

On my contract, I get paid for the days I work. I don’t get paid for the days I don’t. Technically, I don’t have ANY paid vacation (although I do earn sick days). I trade money for time. In the real world, I once turned down an annual raise in lieu of an additional week (to make 3) of vacation time. It’s all about compromise.

The people who want to move the calendar aren’t necessarily the people who teach your children. People who have never taught nor seen the inside of a classroom in years are often responsible for many decisions in education. Look at how many superintendents come from non-educational backgrounds. How about the background of some of our “Education Csars?”

I got 30 days paid leave per year while I was in the service - and more Federal holidays than I do now. Could anyone in their right mind begrudge the men and women of our armed forces those days?

Before I got into teaching, I would dream about the day my children would be grown and done with school, so I wouldn’t be locked into the school calendar determining my vacation plans! I could take a vacation whenever I want. Since I chose to teach, I am doomed to be stuck with it until I retire. Look on the bright side, SWC, when your children are grown (which happens faster than you can imagine), you can vacation in August without the beaches being so crowded!

Just food for thought!

By DB

October 17, 2005 10:58 AM | Link to this

SWC: It is my problem that I need breaks. I’m willing to accept that.