Get Schooled

By John C.

October 10, 2005 10:59 AM | Link to this

Here’s one for the record books of a school that will remain nameless but certainly not shameless in a district west of Atlanta.

The school called to setup a PTC because our child had been identified as a disciplinary problem. We’d been given no forewarning of any previous incidents. However, we went in trying to be objective and hear both sides. As it turns out the teacher was new teaching and apparently could not control her class. In addition, when queried she could not specifically cite an incident or why she had classified our child as the problem other than he was seated near some “trouble-makers”. When we pushed for additional details, she was at a total loss and couldn’t keep her story or the details straight. However, the principal came to her defense with a completely off-the-wall statement that statistics from a “study” show that “out of every class of 30 are about 5 students that are disciplinary problems”. I asked him from what academic journal this study came from because I wanted to read it myself to which he replied that these statistics were out of the school’s disciplinary records not from a published journal. At this point, my wife was fuming and we dismissed this conference as a waste of our time by two people who obviously had chosen the wrong career. I question the intelligence and/or motives of any teacher or administrator who is so quick to categorize over 10 percent of the students in a school as discipline problems just to push them off to alternative school. Well, it turns out that it was a case of mistaken identity with our child as we found out from another parent whose child was likewise accused of being a troublemaker by the same teacher. The teacher in question left after her first year but the administrator is still there ready to falsely categorize other children.

By dan

October 10, 2005 11:18 AM | Link to this

Or course John it couldn’t have been your child that was causing problems. What a joke. Parent used to support the teachers and not try to put them on the defensive. You should be proud of yourself that the teacher only taught for a year? It is time to be part of the solution not the problem.

By Velatra

October 10, 2005 11:23 AM | Link to this

Wow, John C. You were right; that is one for the books. On behalf of teachers and other educators who generally have their “stuff” together, I apologize for your and your child’s nightmare.

By Iteach

October 10, 2005 11:24 AM | Link to this

I don’t know how PTC went at other schools but our district had PTC day last Friday and it was a flop. One of our teachers managed to get two of the local radio stations to announce PTC day last Wednesday and Thursday. Our home school facilitator sent the announcement to the 32 churches in our area (My pastor annouced it the last 2 sundays and the last two bible studies). The result was 1 parent showed up for our hall of 12 teachers.

In addition to the school’s efforts I sent home progress reports via the mail the previous week with the announcement enclosed. This only resulted in 23 returned reports and I was called in by my principal because 11 parents had called to register their children’s complaints.

Being in a school that is fighting to meet AYP (3rd year missing) it is frustrating. The weekly telephone calls are virtually no use since most of the parents that you can contact are those of the students that are doing well and the other parents want to support their child’s reasons for failing or being disruptive. “She’s cutting your class because she says you’re too hard. I want her out of your class …”

What am I to do?

By Velatra

October 10, 2005 11:33 AM | Link to this

As a teacher, the thing that frustrates me about as much as no-shows is when there is little to no progress shown by students who are having problems with being disciplined. Some parents talk a good game, as if they support you; but, for the most part, their children come back the same way, day after day. We need to go back to the days when children got their behinds “whooped” at school. That would alleviate a lot of the discipline problems. Children, nowadays, have no respect (or fear) for authority. But, that’s another post. Awww-the glory days of the ‘80’s and before are gone!!!

By HS Science

October 10, 2005 11:43 AM | Link to this

Of the endless PTC’s I have, very few are productive. I seldom call PTC’s for discipline problems - I’ll take care of that. Virtually all of my PTC’s are for academics. My school has tutoring available through Sylvan Learning Center free of charge as well as by 2 local colleges, Delta Sigma Theta, and 100 Black Men, all available at the school free of charge on Tuesdays, Wednesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays. I try to encourage the parents to either have their child come to me for tutoring or take advantage of the other programs at PTC’s.

The responses are pretty much the same here are the top 3 - 1)Can you just give them some extra credit work (DUH, they are not doing the required work); 2) They can’t stay after school. 3) They (the student) say that your class is too hard.

This year’s class is an even bigger challenge in that only 8% of their class passed the Algebra EOCT, 38% passed the Biology EOCT, and 48% passed 9th grade English EOCT. The parents call to complain about grades but will not assist with improving their student’s grades. One parent came to a PTC a few weeks ago at 7:30 and insisted that her son was doing his homework (outlining the chapter) because he said so - I handed her his book that was brought to me that morning. Her response was “That book’s too big for him to be hauling back and forth. But just call me if he doesn’t have his work.”

But, let me give my praise to the parents that do care and come to work with us. I have had some parents that do everything possible to help and it makes a difference.

By OutofAtl

October 10, 2005 11:51 AM | Link to this

I teach in a system outside of the Atlanta metro area, but, I did teaching in APS for 7 years. While in Atlanta I usually had very good PTC’s, parents showed up and there was at least some difference.

Now, there’s probably a 90% no-show, even when they ask, for the PTC. And yes,Velatra’s comment about the good talk is all too true. Even worse is when the student is there and the “two buddies” (parent and child)sit there together to make excuses then either leave laughing at “us fools” or cursing at “us fools.”

By jennifer

October 10, 2005 11:51 AM | Link to this

Hey Dan, it looks to me like your post doesn’t have much merit since it was a case of mistaken identity.

Both parents had every right to question what their child had done and the teacher should have already had her notes on this child in front of her so she could be prepared to answer those questions. I am sure she had to anticipate these questions would be asked regarding the bad behavior she said this child had shown. I, too, would have asked the same questions. I would also want to know what in particular my child had done to get the ‘discipline problem’ label.

There is nothing wrong with questioning your child’s teacher and any good teacher knows this and they will not be offended. You certainly seem to be more offended than any teacher I have worked with regarding this same situation.

Good for the parents for asking.

By Robert

October 10, 2005 12:26 PM | Link to this

I often wonder the need for PTC…

Shouldn’t the parents be getting the report card regularly (even 3 weeks)? Shouldn’t the parents see their child prepare every night by doing homework and studying?

If the answer is yes, then what is the need? If there is a special problem, then that, to me, would be a need. Other than that, what is the point?

By HStchr

October 10, 2005 12:27 PM | Link to this

I’ve only had one bad PTC, and it was because I messed up and didn’t have all the documentation I needed. I go into a conference with two things: one, something good to say about the kid(s) in question; and two, specific documented evidence of anything negative I intend to mention. Parents rarely complain when I can show them a calendar with specific discipline issues and contact attempts listed. They appreciate the diligence and it really doesn’t take that much time to prepare. It’s important, even inviolable, to at least try to involve the parent early on , especially if it involves changing negative behavior or performance.

By Ijustteach

October 10, 2005 12:30 PM | Link to this

John C, please accept my appoloy to you as an educator for your experience. Many parents do not realize that PTC’s are an art that Teachers must learn, and in your case you met with a new teacher that may not have developed their skills.

I am a mentor for two new teachers and PTC’s are the third thing we work on after 1) Classroom Management and 2)Effective Instructional Delivery. After we discuss how to conduct a PTC, I ask my mentees to let me know when they will have a PTC.

Prior to the PTC I play the role of the parent and allow the new teacher to conduct the PTC. After the role play, which I tape, we critique the session. I will then sit in the PTC to observe. To date my two mentee’s have had 17 PTC’s and they now conduct them themselves, occasionally asking to be observed.

You should have been given some specifics about the behavior, however, just listening may have served better. Yes, the teacher’s accounts may have seemed to change but remember, you seemed to have turned it into a deposition. It would probably be best to do three things - 1) ask your child what is it that this teacher says that they are doing to disturb the class (but stay open minded), 2) Request another PTC with the teacher and request that this time they bring a few specific problems, 3) If your child’s school allows it ask the visit during that class period and just stand outside and observe your child through the glass.

Remember, even though the teacher may not have conducted a good PTC, there was some reason for them requesting it. If you are concerned about your child work with the teacher. Who knows, you may teach this teacher how to improve their PTC skills.

By CDog

October 10, 2005 12:48 PM | Link to this

Biggest complaints as a teacher about PTCs:

-Parents who are clueless (or pretend to be clueless) about child’s performance despite all my emails, website updates, and progress reports sent home

• special ed parents who try to milk their child’s status for all it’s worth to get the rules changed and standards lowered

• parents who want their child’s laziness rewarded

In my experience, PTCs take me away from myu classroom before and after school when I could be in there helping students who actually care enough to come in for help. The student for which the PTC is about usually is a child who would not come before or after school if their life depended on it. Most of the information exchanged in a PTC could be done much more quickly and efficiently via email.

By SWC

October 10, 2005 01:04 PM | Link to this

John C- I cannot believe some of the responses that you are getting by teachers to your situation of mistaken identity! You “turned it into a deposition”? Good for you! If my child was accused of behavioral problems when there was no evidence to support that accusation I’d be in a heck of a lawyer mode too. You were not supposed to just sit there and listen! What is wrong with this picture? And we now have “role-playing” for PTC meetings? Is this on the taxpayer dime?

Yes, there are many parents who refuse to help their children succeed - who are full of excuses and culturally incapable of accepting responsibility for anything in their lives, BUT the idea that all teachers are omniscient beings that we parents must defer to unquestioningly is clearly nonsense and the idiotic responses from Dan et all on this blog proves it.

By Ijustteach

October 10, 2005 01:22 PM | Link to this

Dear SWC, role playing nonsense? If my mentee had sat before me without supporting evidence, and clueless as to what they were talking about they would have known. I don’t want one of my mentee’s spouting studies at you and wasting time. You want specifics, you want clarity, and hopefully you want to know how to help.

I’ve raised my children and know what I would have wanted out of a PTC. Is it a waste of time to make sure that when you do take some of your precious time to visit our school about your child that we make sure not to waste your time with ramblings? For parents, such as yourself, who are self-fashioned lawyers that don’t want your child “accused of behavioral problems when there was no evidence to support that accusation…” teachers should know how to present the evidence to you so that you will not feel that your child is being persecuted.

By Ijustteach

October 10, 2005 01:30 PM | Link to this

Note to SWC, don’t worry about your dimes, I meet with my mentees twice a week after our offical school day (interpretation - off the clock). They and I are willing to spend the time to make them, and myself, the best eduators possible. We also attend seminars twice a month - I don’t have to go with them, but it helps to know what questions they have.

New teachers, and veterans, invest a lot of time in your child. After reading your post I am glad that I prepare my mentees for such as you in hopes that they will not be discourage as many others and leave our fine profession after only a few years.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

October 10, 2005 01:36 PM | Link to this

Thanks, SWC you are correct. John and his wife were doing their jobs as parents and should have had all their questions answered completely.

I have a process that I follow when meeting with my daughters teacher. (1.) I always let the teacher give her complete analysis of my childs progress. (2.) I always bring a note pad. (3.) I always ask a ton of questions about future assignments and task that will be covered during the next nine weeks.

As a result, my child has always been way ahead of the class. However, I have had teachers complain about the pace in which my child has advanced from the class. I have had many complain, because in class her assignments are completed ahead of the other students. As a result, she has been learning to use time wisely by checking her work.

As a parent, I don’t like anyone placing restrictions as to what timeframe my child is suppose to learn a new topic. I have had to tell a few teachers to use their time to reinforce what my daughter has already learned. This has resulted in my child learning more than one method to accomplish a task.

We are having our first parent teacher conference for this year next week. My daughters teacher informed me on the first day of school, that she has heard lots of things about me. I knew that day, that we would get along just fine.

I would like to think, that knowing about me, is better than not hearing from me.

By Teacher

October 10, 2005 01:39 PM | Link to this

You mean a FIRST YEAR TEACHER had difficulties in a PTC? She didn’t know to have her stuff together because her authority and judgment would be called into question? Was this the beginning of the year, when students make the task of learning names even more challenging by playing games (answering to the wrong name at role call, sitting in the wrong seats, etc.)? Not that what she did was right, but put yourself in someone else’s shoes every once in a while.

We have PTC night, and very few parents come…even the ones we BEG to come. I always feel better after a PTC, but I rarely see a difference when we return to class. Parents threaten to do this, that, and the other, but whatever it is obviously doesn’t work. I feel better regardless, because I’ve done the right thing and, legally, I’m safe.

By Former APS parent

October 10, 2005 01:45 PM | Link to this

I usually had very good conferences with my children’s teachers. Of course there were a few that I thought were a waste of time. When a teacher came prepared to discuss my child - their progress and problems, I was happy. On one rare occassion the teacher did have a personality issue - but hey, that teacher clashed with me when I was in her class 25 years before.

Once I did attend a conference where the teacher only made general comments about the class as a whole and not my child such as in John’s case of mistaken idenity. Even though I was sure that my child could not be doing that I did speak with my child and give the word that “IF YOU EVER DO …” The results - three Mays HS graduates that have now finished Annapolis, West Point and Georgia Tech with honors.

I worked with teachers for the betterment of my children. My brother is a high school teacher and I know what they go through with some of us parents. Personally I can tell you that after all of his complaints about teaching in APS he’s always thrilled to see his former students doing well and he brags on their sucess as if he raised them all.

By dan

October 10, 2005 01:52 PM | Link to this

SWC you go into lawer mode and it puts teachers on the defensive. The teacher in the above case probably went into the PTC with the notion the parent was going to listen and help with the problem not put the teacher on the stand. Probably caught a young teacher off guard and little Johnny was excused from his/her behavior. “Johnny your teacher doesn’t know what they are talking about.” Great message.

By swc

October 10, 2005 01:55 PM | Link to this

Dan - “Little Johnny” did nothing wrong! What is the matter with you? Are you so embittered with students and parents that you can’t even read what John C said and comprehend it? Do you need someone to translate for you?

By dan

October 10, 2005 02:08 PM | Link to this

Little Johnny never does anything wrong. Of course. My bad

By swc

October 10, 2005 02:14 PM | Link to this

Dan - Why do you persist in assuming incorrectly that John C’s child was at fault. IF you actually went back and read what John C wrote you might get it. But “Big Danny” never does anything wrong so he won’t admit that he misread the original post. Jeez.

By HS Science

October 10, 2005 02:28 PM | Link to this

I decided to come back and read what was posted after finishing some work. A lot has been said and I applaud “Amazed.” It seems as if John C’s case leads the bulk of the comments and I too would offer my apology to John C. As far as Ijustteach’s comments - we need such a program.

This year we have three new teachers in our department and for those that can’t forgive a new teacher just walk in their shoes for a second. We are fortunate to have 2 of the TAPP teachers that are excellent in terms of teaching the content but they are often amazed at the side jobs.

When I do have PTC’s I make sure that I am prepared and I have cautioned our new teachers to do likewise. I wish we had role played before one of them had a conference because she was ready to pack her bags after the PTC.

By Lynn

October 10, 2005 02:59 PM | Link to this

Wow - I’m a parent ina West GA school (Carrollton)and I count myself lucky! Reading these blogs is quite an education on APS. As a parent of an ADHD child, who is also in the gifted program, I’m constantly in touch with his teachers. By the time a PTC comes around, there’s usually nothing new to say. I already know, because I email back and forth with the teacher, make and return phone calls if necessary. I volunteer in the school, and make sure the staff knows who I am. I know all parents can’t do this, I’m lucky enough to be a stay-at-home-mom. And I applaud the parents and teachers who make sure they do what’s best for the students. As for the other parents - school is a place for children to learn academics. Home is where kids learn manners, respect, responsibility and life skills. Teach those at home, and you won’t have problems at school.

By SWC

October 10, 2005 03:02 PM | Link to this

Back on topic: As a parent I really like PTC meetings. Now that my son is in Middle School parents whose children were not having problems were not “invited”, at least this time around. I was disappointed as I would have liked to meet with his teacher. I think that one of the biggest problems that exists in general is not really knowing what my child is studying. Except for special projects, I haven’t had one piece of paper, classwork or homework, returned to me yet. I know his grades, but because I don’t get any corrected papers back I can’t work with him in those areas were he might need an extra push. I feel “out of the loop”. One teacher has a website where she posts the months curriculum - something that I love to see. I wish more teachers did that - its also hard to ask your child about what they’re learning if you don’t know what they are covering in the classroom. I would also love to see assignments posted on the internet so I can be sure that he’s doing all his work and not rely on his word or his agenda. Its too easy to “forget”. I know that they’re trying to instill responsibility, but 6th grade is a bit young to hand everything over to the child, especially if they are somewhat disorganized (IMHO).

Re Mentors and Mentees: I think its great that mentors will volunteer their time to work with teachers. However, I find it extraordinary that a teacher would need mentoring to know not to make accusations about a child’s behavior without any facts to back it up, and would need a mentor to tell him/her not to spout phony statistics. This is just common sense and is true for any occupation, not just teaching. And what about the Principal who always stands behind the teacher, no matter what? I can completely understand not wanting to embarrass the teacher in front of the parent, but the Principal should be able to tell the parent that they will “look into it” and then get the truth of the matter from the teacher, privately. Why should the parent be put in the situation that John C was put in? Who wants to have their child unfairly labeled as a ‘troublemaker’?

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

October 10, 2005 03:10 PM | Link to this

FYI Lynn,

The road to Academics begins at home. My child new how to read, write and do math before she started school. If I had waited for school, she would be at the same pace as most of the other 27 kids in her class.

“As for the other parents - school is a place for children to learn academics. Home is where kids learn manners, respect, responsibility and life skills. ” - you have got to be kidding me. I believe there is room at home and school for both kinds of educations. Life skills, respect and responsibilities can be learned at school and at home. You can’t practice one “only at home” and the other “only at school”.

My Point is: Just because you are not at the Library does not mean you should not read quitely while at home.

By Lynn

October 10, 2005 03:11 PM | Link to this

SWC - you are so right! It is really hard, no matter how involved you are to follow along with your child. I get graded papers back every week, and I still can’t keep a grasp on exactly what he’s doing. My son is in 4th grade this year. Spelling is now an in-school only project. There is a test every week, but no word list comes home, and no homework is assigned. Math is taught in a completely different way than I learned many years ago. I don’t know if I’m “helping” him correctly! The answer may be right, but if I teach him a different way to solve it, it doesn’t count. This is the 1st year in a brand new middle school, so lots of things haven’t been set up yet. No web-sites for assignments or teacher postings. No tutoring programs. They don’t even have the library fully up and running! My son still manages to make honor roll grades, but with considerable head-banging on my part to figure out how to help & guide him.

By oldteacher

October 10, 2005 03:11 PM | Link to this

All the parents in our school were invited to attend a PTC. I had one parent out of 45 to show up.

By Lynn

October 10, 2005 03:20 PM | Link to this

Amazed, I think you misunderstood my point. I don’t think that manners etc.. should ONLY be taught at home. Nor do I think academics should only be taught at school (my 4 yr old is already beyond basic pre-school skills, and he doesn’t officially start til next year). I’m saying, that if they were taught at home to start with, you wouldn’t have as many problems at school. Yes, all life skills should be re-affirmed at school. It’s a mini-society to prepare kids for the real world. But I don’t think teachers need to be the ones to teach my kids how to be responsible - behave in class, remember and complete assignments, etc..It’s not any teachers job to parent my child. School and home should reinforce one another.

By Opal

October 10, 2005 04:05 PM | Link to this

The worst PTC I had was for a special education student who was acting out in class. In the course of the conversation, his mom said she knew __ was misbehaving as surely as she knew he had blue eyes. The boy turned to look at his mom and said, “My eyes are brown.”

By Been there

October 10, 2005 04:13 PM | Link to this

For whole school, PTC night, I had my most successful turn outs when I held ” student led ” conferences. Yes,the student not only participated, yet led, the conference. Yes, the parents knew their student and myself would decide on the work,both bad and good to be discussed. Once each 4 weeks, students would write out how they felt they were doing, including strengths, weakness’ and goals met and set for them. I was in a school that was known for its low PTC night turn outs, yet, when I held student led conferences, I averaged( honestly ) a 93% turn out. Some parents who had “angels” in my class we’re quite suprised to learn how their child viewed themselves at school. As for individual PTC, if I set them I made sure to have my documentation, and documentation from other staff,( if needed.) When a parent requested a conference, I made sure to listen and take notes about what they had said. Clarified their concerns and together we set goals for not only their child but for ourselves. Took sime time, but it was well worth it in the end.

By HS Science

October 10, 2005 04:19 PM | Link to this

As for the PTC’s we have only 1 school wide PTC day per semester, but I request them after every portfolio grading period (usually every 2 weeks). The parents that do show up are the parents of the students that do well such as Amazed, Lynn and SWC. I always have the portfolio’s out and ready to go through them with the parents.

Often these are the parents that want to know what was wrong with a certain entry and I enjoy pointing it out because 9 out of 10 times the ctudent corrects errors. I encourage the parents to visit my web site where they can take the same on-line quizes as their children take. These are also most of the parents that have internet access at home so they are also shown what’s new on the class bookmark site.

Even though we are a low performing school the parents that do come to PTC’s to try and help their children often do help. It is hard filling the parent gap for so many children since it takes time to figure out which student will accept help. Good PTC’s can go a long way.

By rdd

October 11, 2005 08:11 AM | Link to this

I’m a parent who cheated and began emailing my daughter’s teacher 3 weeks into the school year. I want the best for my child and had not seen any test scores, so I’ve been in touch and went directly to the teacher’s class on our first night of PTA and missed the meeting. I was not surprised with the 6 week report card and will stay on my child to perform well and ‘try’ to be quiet during classroom instruction. I’ve let our teacher know she has my support and can call me anytime.

By maty

October 11, 2005 02:58 PM | Link to this

I think any form of communication (defined as 2-way communication) between teachers and parents is a good thing, whether it be emails, PTCs, or even notes in the bookbag. When my oldest started Kindergarten, he thought he could get away with some behavior that we don’t tolerate at home. He soon learned that school behavior determined his priveleges at home and vice-versa. This type of integrated behavior modification is effective and only possible when the teachers and parents communicate.

By Cobb Mother

October 11, 2005 03:24 PM | Link to this

I would really like to get more involved with my daughter’s school and its activities. I visited the Principal’s office this week and his secretary for some dates for the upcoming PTA meetings, information on how to join, anything and she could not furnish me any but she did manage to find a home number for a parent who is suppose to be the head of the PTA. WWWHHOOOPPEEE. I also read from a HS Science that his school offers free tutoring from Sylvan Learning Center and various organizations and colleges. Please, if anyone can point me in the right direction to find out how I can get this same program at my daughter’s school. I would be greatly appreciative.

By Nick

October 11, 2005 04:21 PM | Link to this

Someone hit it right on the head. Communication is the key. As a teacher, I send home a weekly letter to all parents informing them of the week’s activities (including homework) as well as other general notes. Most of my parents recieve this in email. A few still get this sent home in bookbags. I feel that this communication has opened up dialouge with parents who might not have contacted me as often or as frequently otherwise.

By David200

October 11, 2005 04:23 PM | Link to this

1) I rarely call for a PTC. I’ve found the kids treat me better than they do their own parents. That’s why when I “write them up,” they look so incredulous and say, “What did I do?”

When I have had to call for a conference, I’ve only had a very few parents get upset in them. In one, I had to sit down and tell a mother to stop trying to make excuses for her child, and let him take his punishment like an adult. Her husband set behind her and nodded his head, yes, in support. In most of the cases, the parent doesn’t know what to do to improve the child. They will ask me, what they should do. What I really want to say is, “Go back 10 years ago and don’t let your child get away with disrespect at home.” Unfortunately, when they get to be high school age their behavior is already pretty much “cast in stone.” It will take something really bad happening to them to change their behavior. Most parents, by the time their child gets to being 16 years old or older, can’t bring themselves to attempt something so harsh. The only thing to do then is let them be responsible for their actions. I flunked out of 3 colleges before I straighten up my act. Changing behavior at the high school level is extremely difficult.

2) Now don’t get me wrong, I “conference” with normal parents, too. They email me their questions, and I email them back. That’s just normal conversations with parents that are interested in their child. That’s not a conference; that’s just normal communication. I do that at the grocery store, drug store, ball games, and restaurants all the time. My wife has gotten used to parents coming up and asking questions. When parents are interested in their child’s life, my job gets a whole lot easier.