Get Schooled

By Karen Armsby

September 29, 2005 09:00 AM | Link to this

Balancing out the proportion of poor kids with those from more financially stable families could work IF the poor students have good parental support and guidance, and the parents work in cooperation with the schools. I think we have discussed this a lot, but I will say it again, the success of the students, teachers and schools happens most often when parents are actively involved with their children and work in cooperation with the schools to educate their children.

For the students lacking the good parenting, then a community mentoring program could step in to help keep those kids on track.

By Dan

September 29, 2005 09:06 AM | Link to this

This is why people do all they can to put their kids in private school, no matter where you move your kids will be subject to behaviors that lead to failure, all in the name of fairness. What about being fair to the kids who want to learn? Why drag them down. If you increase one childs grades from C to B by dragging another from an A to a B is that not fair to the A student? This is America not Russia we have seen how communism works

Churchhill said “The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery.” If busing is inevitable then it should be done on merit not income level

By Tired Teach

September 29, 2005 09:17 AM | Link to this

I teach in a suburb system of Atlanta. Our county is split up in such a way that it has a number if schools filled with students from middle income and higher families. Our county seat has a very high percentage of low income students. Basically they are the products of generational poverty. I do believe that these students have the ability to excel and in my decade of teaching I have seen some do it. The problem is the majority that don’t. I have always been told by my family that if you hang around with successful people you have a greater opportunity to become successful. Hang around with loosers who have no intention of bettering themselves and you have a greater chance of becoming a looser. This idea of busing based on income may have some true merit. The school I teach in has not made the AYP since all that started. Teachers here truely work their asses off to teach these kids what they need to know, but we can’t even get into safe harbor. You can tell kids all day long how much potential they have and how they are not their parents and they can set their own course in life, but in the end they go home to broken families living in the worst of conditions that most people can’t even imagine. That is their reality and no amount of rosey picture painting by adults is going to change that. Could seeing more of their peers at school planning to go to college make a difference? Or for that matter even planning to graduate from high school. It seems like it would. I personally would be willing to try anything to help these kids, and so far very little is working. We can’t beat their reality. Maybe by surrounding them with a higher expectation inside their peer group would make a difference.

By NotMyProblem

September 29, 2005 09:20 AM | Link to this

If parents are too poor to afford to feed their children lunch, why are they having children in the first place? Does personal responsibility EVER enter into the picture? It is absurd to punish the children in high-peforming schools by bringing in other children who have no desire to learn or achieve, and nor do their parents. This sounds like just another step towards a socialized America. I feel sorry for kids living in poverty, but their parents are to blame and should be held accountable for making the bad decisions and life choices that put them into that situation. If I work hard to make sure I can afford to live in an area with high educational standards, I expect the same from the other parents who wish to send their children there. Bringing in a bunch of entitlement-minded kids will do nothing but drag down the ones who are actually working to achieve success in their lives, rather than just killing time until they’re old enough to drop out and collect their next welfare check.

By ihaveclass

September 29, 2005 09:23 AM | Link to this

It is so sad to see some students who really want to learn ridiculed by those who don’t. I don’t blame parents one bit when they want to put their kids in private schools or if they want to home school. Most parents know what is best for their kids and if they have the means, I say go for it.

Income does seem to have a lot to do with whether or not students want to learn. There are those who come from lower income families who don’t see the value of education and those who come from higher income families who think that they can buy anything so they don’t need an education. The kids get confusing mixed messages from parents, other kids and society. I wish I knew the answer.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

September 29, 2005 09:49 AM | Link to this

How can anyone say that a child does not desire to learn, just because they are poor? If you reach kids between the ages of 4 - 12 years old and give them the support they need, it will be with them from elementary thru junior high and until they graduate.

Now, college is another issue when you are poor, because you have to find ways to pay for school. Yes, some can get scholarships, but most can not because of a shortage of funding.

The current educational system does not focus enough on poor kids in elementary school, that’s when the focus on education begins.

I don’t know why the majority of people on this blog have a belief that poor families do not want to learn or that poor parents do not want better things in life for their kids.

When a poor child is successful in school and graduates from highschool, they usually want to go to college. Many have the opportunity with the Hope Scholarship. However, because they did not have the same opportunities to learn things that were provided in higher income schools, they usually struggle their freshman year and loose the scholarship. (Now reread my last statement) because it was important. So, that proves that many “issues exist” within school systems, because lower income schools still do not provide the same opportunities as higher income schools.

If you mix lower income kids, with higher income kids, they can learn from each other. For example: the higher income child has a father who is a doctor, so his biology skills will more than likely be advanced. They pickup terminology from their parents. Another child has higher math skills, because his/her parent is an accountant.

However, this will only work, if the kids are required to work together on projects, so that they learn from each other. It must start in elementary school, where friendships begin.

By BeenThereDoneThat

September 29, 2005 09:52 AM | Link to this

I am a former education business guy who was a teacher, counselor and other things for 15 years. I’ve seen it all and come to the conclusion that THE PLAYING FIELD WILL NEVER BE LEVEL because it is impossible to do that. NO AMOUNT OF MONEY, PROGRAMS, or LEGISLATION will accomplish for people things they do not want for themselves. If you say you understand this, people say you are prejudiced against others, instead of simply being allowed to speak the truth as you see it. I agree with what someone else said in another comment, “is there ever a place for personal responsiblility?” Everyone wants “fair.” You know, I was raised in a middle class suburban Southern family with a working father and stay-at-home mom. We NEVER went to Europe on vacation or had 2 cars, we never had a summer place at the beach. My point, can I complain that I had a disadvantage because we weren’t rich? My father died when I was 14 and my mother went to work full time to support us and then to pay for me to go to college. Was that unfair? Life deals each of us a different hand …we must accept the hand we’ve been given then plan, work and grow to rise to the next level if that is what we want. It is a wrong assumption to believe everyone WANTS to get ahead in life …many people are quite content to stay exactly where they are.

By SWC

September 29, 2005 09:56 AM | Link to this

It is unconscionable to bus children out of their local communities to attend school with students who are not their neighbors, unless this is a completely voluntary decision.

Keeping students in their local community is not “segregation” but it does recognize the cherished value of “community”. Political correctness has redefined the term “community” to mean “gay community” or “black community” or “minority community” defining us by our sexuality or skin color while deflating the original meaning of a body of people living in the same place.

Are we supposed to bus our children to these same locales in order to socialize after school? Forming lasting friendships is an indisputable part of the “school experience”, but if ones classmates live across hill and dale, then it is difficult if not impossible to maintain friendships. Further, like it or not, children tend to befriend people of similar abilitites, interests, and achivement. All my son’s friends are in the “all As” or “Mostly As and some Bs” group. This group forms naturally - they do not look at eachothers report card and then decide to become friends. If a “minority” student is a high achiever and has similar interests then he will be part of the group - in that sense it is colorblind. This is a normal part of the social construct and all the social-engineering in the world will not change this - it is part of human nature.

Of course standardized test scores will improve overall with the NC plan- the misery that Dan speaks of is just being spread around instead of kept at the source! The underachievers ride on the wave of success of the achievers by shifting the numbers so a majority in any school is guaranteed to pass. I would bet that schools which previously had an 80/20 or 90/10 meets/fails to meet assesment on standardized tests now have something closer to 70/30 or 60/40. So overall, more schools meet standards, but I doubt that actual education is improving in the process. Call it the NCLB shuffle. There is only so much learning that goes on through osmosis. Does this make sense?

I urge you to look up the story of Capitol View Elementary School - and 80% poverty rate Atlanta school that is excelling (this ran in the AJC). Shifting around the pieces on a chessboard and using our children as pawns is not the solution to improving education.

By RF

September 29, 2005 10:09 AM | Link to this

As has been mentioned before, Captiol View school is a fairly small school and because of it’s largely homogenous population can focus on specific needs and excel. Schools with largely one group of similar kids can succeed with focused effort on that population. Current trends in education favor inclusion where kids are interspersed with different kids. What’s missing is the knowledge about how to deal with kids from generational poverty and the different needs they have. I teach in a school with about a 40-45% poverty rate, and we have made AYP in recent years by targeting our poorer students without singling them out. We’ve studied and read about the needs and issues facing children from poverty, so we have some resources for helping them. It’s not really difficult, but you have to have some training in order to really help the needier kids. So far, the trend in our scores show it’s working. It’s a challenge and not always a good one, but I see the benefits for kids from poor, deprived lifestyles to be around and see kids from different surroundings. They need to see and hear the differences in order to learn to cope with a world that is vastly different from the one they grow up in. I don’t like busing kids across town, and wish there were another way to accomplish the goal of blending populations.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

September 29, 2005 10:15 AM | Link to this

BeenThereDoneThat, I call it having a certain mindset against others, not necessarily prejudice. I also would define it as slighly hateful and meaningless.

You are correct however, about the playing field never being level. However, in many cases the odds are against you from birth. The child is a victim, because of their parents choice or special circumstances.

I’m sure many of you would be happy to pass a law that requried people to Only give birth if you are married and have an income above $50,000. I can see the majority in this country voting for such a law, while at the same time providing freedom to Iraq. LOL:)

By Karen Armsby

September 29, 2005 10:16 AM | Link to this

To NotMyProblem: Generational proverty is a problem for all of our society. All of us who earn incomes above the poverty level, who pay taxes, and don’t get earned income credits (welfare), have been paying to support the welfare state that cemented generations into poverty. Hand Outs should be stopped and repalced with more Helping Hands Up, that educate and train the adults and break the cycle.

Undoubtedly, poor kids would all benefit in a school with better students around them, with mentoring, and with teaching that instills a work ethic and personal responsibility into them. I think school mentoring programs are needed to retrain the poor so that they can understand and will adopt the achiever’s mentality and abandon the nonachieving mentality of the poor.

Disclaimer: My comments are not to be construed as directed to any racial or ethnic group. I am talking strictly about those who are economically poor.

By Ernest

September 29, 2005 10:19 AM | Link to this

I understand the frustration expressed by NotMyProblem however I feel some of the points raised are harsh. Do we hold the decisions parents made against the children? I would hope not.

Despite many of us seeking alternatives, public education is here to stay! We can all try to work together and attempt to make it work better or simply stand by and do nothing. A way I’m looking at this is we try to address this during the K-12 years or spend more money after they turn 18 by supporting them with entitlement programs. I would think we can get a greater return on investment by addressing these problems early in life.

It’s interesting when you look at the demographics of the Wake County school system, especially regarding its ethnic diversity and number of students on free/reduced lunch. The also have a major university in the county which also says something about the demographics. I spoke to someone in a neighboring county who said they are going through ‘growing pains’ now, partly because of the successes they’ve had. You can see for yourself at: Wake County Public School System

All this being said, while I think their attempts are noble, it would be difficult to implement something like this in the ATL metro school systems because of housing and traffic patterns.

By RF

September 29, 2005 10:31 AM | Link to this

Indeed the main problem with moving kids to balance populations is the traffic and distance in Atlanta. There are kids in southern Fulton county who attend magnet programs in north Fulton who must ride the bus for over an hour at ungodly hours. Could you imagine the traffic nightmare and fuel consumption it would take to do this in Atlanta? Ernest is right.

By Dan

September 29, 2005 10:58 AM | Link to this

Amazed Ernest and others No one is saying people don’t want to learn because they are poor, people become poor because they don’t want to learn. Those people typically pass those traits on to their children. This is what causes generational poverty. And busing doesn’t help it just reinforces the notion that they need to be moved and have more money in order to succeed. That is baloney, what they need is a kick in the butt 9mostly figuratively but sometimes actually), and if that is properly applied they will succeed where they are and learn that 99% of success can be drawn from within, conversely 99% of failure also comes from within. Unless this is learned generational poverty will continue. Contrary to politically correct rhetoric, most rich people come from modest backgrounds they don’t inherit it.

By Booyah

September 29, 2005 10:59 AM | Link to this

I live near Wake County. Let me state how aweful this program is. You buy a home in a neighborhood specifically for the schools (like I did when I used to live in East Cobb) and you find out your child is getting bussed to some low income area. What do you think this does to property values? And the real estate market as a whole. They got it wrong.

By Leia

September 29, 2005 11:08 AM | Link to this

I agree that something needs to be done to rectify this situation, but, I don’t think that this is it. In fact, I think this will reinforce in the poorer students minds how much they don’t have! They will still not have the parental involvement from home or the resources that the other students may have (their own computers, cars, etc.) This may have the opposite effect than intended.

By b. white

September 29, 2005 11:14 AM | Link to this

Hasn’t this been tried? Remember busing. The higher income students’ parents will simply move away when the school starts to run down. Vouchers were introduced to combat this problem. Didn’t work either. Now it’s No Child Left Behind. It offers school transfer. Has yet to be proven effective. Simply put - bloom where you are planted. Enrich the soil and you will bloom no matter where you are planted.

By ihaveclass

September 29, 2005 11:18 AM | Link to this

I remember busing and you are right. It did not work then.

By dgr

September 29, 2005 11:20 AM | Link to this

NotMyProblem, you are so cynical it makes me sick, most of the children that are on free-reduced lunch are working parents in poverty. Most middle class incomes are suffering so they are a couple of paychecks from poverty. It is not so cut and dry, life throws curves and circumstances that are beyond control. After 9/11, I lost my great corporate job with a great salary and survived on my savings for a year; I had a daughter and was struggling to make it. Some people just need a little help. Please remember the majority of Americans collecting welfare are not the ones you probably think.

By Bob

September 29, 2005 11:27 AM | Link to this

Perhaps one of the oldest debates in modern education.

What should be the goal of all good school systems is not to socially engineer the community to overcome natural housing patterns. Rather, good school systems should strive to make all schools high quality and competitive. One of the great myths of No Child Left Behind is that in allowing students to transfer out of “failing” schools, we are doing something good. By allowing transfers we are actually allowing the so-called failing school to lose more and more of the higher achieving students, making the left school even worse.

Why can’t we strive to make all schools high quality, despite economics or demographics? Isn’t that the real answer?

By RF

September 29, 2005 11:31 AM | Link to this

Dan—I used to think the same way about those in poverty until my school read a book about it. Basically, the “kick in the butt” doesn’t work. Life in general gives you that anyway. Kids from poverty, due to lack of proper surroundings etc. lack the resources often to know how to do better. They don’t see our lifestyle as “better”, it’s just different. As logical as it is to believe they just need motivation, it just doesn’t work that way. Used to, but not now—kids from poverty don’t see the “better life” that being in the middle-class offers. Lack of parental involvement is just one aspect of the problem. I’m definitely not saying to bus the kids around, but we have to find some way to get the notion of “better life” across to them.

By Susie

September 29, 2005 11:35 AM | Link to this

Has anyone thought that it could be used/abused for purposes OTHER than academic?? I can see this being totally abused for athletic purposes at some point in time. How long will it be before kids are being divvied up based on how well they played football last year? I think the intentions might be good here, but I can also see the potential for it to be used for purposes for which it was not intended.

By Ernest

September 29, 2005 11:45 AM | Link to this

Dan, I think many of us here are frustrated because we want to help but don’t know how. What they are doing in Wake County is not the ‘silver bullet’ for solving academic achievement problems. I like the comment you posted from Churchill. The lingering question will be, if you are poor and want more for your children with regards to education, should you have choices outside of your neighborhood school.

I’ve said it before, I wish my children were in a school environment that was ethnically diverse, so they could be exposed to people with/from different backgrounds. I recognize that my decision on where to live affects that thus I blame no one. I’m not willing to have them bussed for who knows how long to be in an environment like this. I could either move into a community that is more diverse or spend time outside of school exposing my children to others. I believe many of us would choose the latter. I support those who chose to have their children bussed to schools out of their community, seeking a better opportunity for their children.

By Rhonda K.

September 29, 2005 11:58 AM | Link to this

Geez…..am I the only one who had a teenage mother?

Being a teenage mother(2 kids by the time she was 21) wasn’t fun. My mother wanted better for her girls, and she succeeded. It wasn’t easy, but we escaped the curse of generational poverty. Even as a teenage mother, my mom made a vow to herself that both her daughters would be college-educated. She succeeded, we are both Accountants, with families that can’t comprehend the life we had growing up(including both of our husbands, both come from well-off families).

My daughter attends a school were 80% if the kids receive free or reduced lunch. She also goes to the smallest school in our county. I’m not poor, most of my neighbors are retired, or have no kids. Our schools population mainly comes from a couple of apartment complexes(a couple which are for sale, there’s very little land for sale where I live, so older homes and apartments are being bought out, torn down, and new McMansions and McTownhomes are being built). We’ve past the yearly progress tests, I think mainly from the size of the school enabling the teachers to spend more time with the children that tend to score lower(the 2nd graders consist of 2 classes of 12, one of 8). I don’t know how many of these children will escape poverty, but I do know my child is better off in this school rather than being one of 30 in a trailer in a different part of our county!

By the way, her test scores are above average…..

By RF

September 29, 2005 12:20 PM | Link to this

Rhonda—your story goes along with what I see in schools—smaller school, better scores. Your school is also more local, which encourages parental involvement. In my county, we have mega-schools (1200+) in elementary and up to or above 2000 in high schools. Regardless of population, the quality of education is hard to maintain in that large an environment. I changed jobs to get us into a smaller system so my kids could go to a school of 5-600. Makes a lot of difference.

By Lisa

September 29, 2005 12:26 PM | Link to this

Do the word ignorance mean anything:Well that word mean not knowing.I was once a person who did not know a lot and with me not knowing it cause a lot of hardship along the way i was told but never shown.I do believe the more you know the more you grow people have limits on what they want to know due to lack of knowledge and exposure in the younger years.we must understand that people learn what they live,and we need to reach out to people in a loving way.now with the school and the poor: perfect example Atlanta Public School by the name of GIEDEON ELEMNTRAY, which sit in the the heart of the Pittsburgh Community the crime rate is high the average income is about 12,000 and the high school graduation is only 2%, but this school have met 100% of there goal throughout the education system,its not about the the income it’s about the love that the teachers have for there students and the principal have for there parents.the teachers do what the teacher do in buckhead they have expectancy and love for the kids, they make school a structure learning enviroment and fun with high expectation not rigorous learning.I would like to say to the Middle School Principal if you want to see a diffrence partner with your local elementray school and see what they are doing so you can implement a higher strategy in a structure enviroment not in a rigorous way.I really feel bad for teachers who know the real problem which is not always the parent alone but most of the students are being taught by people who don’t even like them.especially in our African American School,I’ve witness teachers putting down kids due to location that a student live in or assuming that there mother is on welfare or a drug addict they never assume they have a farther.I even view our African American sister who are teacher not speaking to one another base on there sorority such as Alpha or Delta,and little black boys that don’t even have a chance with these sister who hate black men and take it out on the black male students.Now don’t get me wrong we have educators who truly love what they do but most of my peers from my race it’s a job and they will tell you in a minute i don’t get paid to like them just to teach and half of them are not teaching they are only training our kids.Yes I’am African American sister and yes I did say this.It’s time out for my people to allow a house a car a degree to blind you from the issues at hand.It’s okay to have but you didn’t do it by yourself! help someone in a loving way like someone help you especially teachers and principal in Atalnta Public School.

By Kathleen

September 29, 2005 12:33 PM | Link to this

I grew up in a poor neighborhood and I was the minority(white). We were not rich and neither were the neighbors. Some kids went on to college. One of my neighborhood friends is a dentist the other is a high ranking school administrator. Some went on to sell drugs and get pregnant. Parents were the factor along with teachers. Most of the the schools I attended were majority black schools. I managed to be on the honor roll and the teachers were great. I had ambition and that is what we need to teach our kids today. I am working on my Masters and I have noted that the college library is always filled students from Asia. The immigrants and children of immigrants have ambition . Americans have it too easy. That is why our education is #9 at this time.

By Dan

September 29, 2005 12:33 PM | Link to this

Ernest RF I agree with much of what you say, and families should be able to choose, and doesn’t busing take away that right for the people who moved away from the troublesome areas? the simple fact that someone would be motivated to proactively seek a better school for their child would suggest that child has a chance to succeed. In this country if you finish school and have the mental capcity to get even a menial job and hold it (ie show up for work on time) you are now above the poverty line. Immigrants from other countries regardless of color come here in AWE of the opportunities that are squandered here. “The working poor” is a fallacy, if you are below the poverty line you aren’t working, not consistently anyway. Now I understand some people are there due to unusual circumstances but that is the minority. This coddling of the poor and suggestions that their lifestyle is anything more than a reflection of the decisions they have made is as much the cause of “generational poverty” as any other. The only way for people to break the cycle is to understand that while it takes work and fortitude, succeeding in this country does not require the government to help. Government intervention only helps those who feel better about pushing the programs it does nothing to actually help those in need

By Dan

September 29, 2005 01:00 PM | Link to this

An interesting WSJ article today, not sure if it requires membership though

http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB112795305361255317,00.html?mod=opinion&ojcontent=otep

By M

September 29, 2005 01:02 PM | Link to this

I haven’t heard anybody mention the one thing that seems to be missing from society today. Values. I grew up poor. We never had a vacation, we spent my summers working in the garden so that we could eat. I didn’t get new clothes every year, only when the old ones were worn to a frazzle. The one thing that helped me more than anything was the values instilled in me by my Father. You can’t teach values in school, that’s not allowed and you can’t force the parents to teach them at home. I believe that’s the main thing that separates the working poor of today and those of us who grew up poor and worked out way out. We were’nt on welfare or foodstamps. That was never a consideration. We wanted more and were willing to work for it. I got A’s in school, it had nothing to do with my financial situation, I had access to the library at school and the public library just like everybody else. Anyone who uses poverty as an excuse to fail deserves what they get, or don’t get.

By Gary

September 29, 2005 01:16 PM | Link to this

As a public school teacher of 20 years, I can attest to the fact that the only effective way to help underclass students is to ensure parental involvement. Without caring, involved parents (or guardians), the child’s chance of succeeding is minimal regardless of where he/she attends school. Much of the “underclass” has evolved a value and behavior system foreign to the rest of us, reminding me of England in Dickensian times, where the rigid class divisions spawned two different cultures. Underclass values for education, work, etiquette, respect for authority, individual responsibility within a society, etc. are often shockingly different. To break out of a culture is exceedingly difficult, but a determined family can do it. Poor families need a lot more than school-based social engineering- they need a lot of help from social workers, employment opportunities, safe places to live, and medical care.

By Nikole

September 29, 2005 01:23 PM | Link to this

I am curious as to how many of the naysayers actually read the article? It’s time for adults to stand up and be advocates for ALL children. Our soicety is so self-centered that it does not matter if YOUR kids are recieving quality education, I am going to take care of MINE. Our country will never progress past poverty and injustice as long as we continue with that type of attitude. It is not hard to believe that students do better at mixed income schools. People of middle and higher classes tend to be more effective advocates for students. Raleigh is simply spreading a more equal number of advocates, thereby increasing their achievement in their schools. It’s time for everyone else to recognize the power in such a program.

By RF

September 29, 2005 01:28 PM | Link to this

Dan—you’re right. The problem is how to teach those values to kids from generational poverty and change their minds. It’s hard when everything they see outside the school is different. You can’t convince a kid to work and try for the “future” when he sees another kid who dropped out driving a nice car(even if he got it with illegal money). We’re battling pop culture which has epitomized the “ghetto” mentality (not just racially either). We have a hard time making kids see that their whole thought process needs to change. It is about choices, but making poor kids see that they need to want better is indeed tough. It happens, but it’s hard to do. Any suggestions about how to instill middle class values in those who have no concept of it? And we can’t count on the community to help with that. It’s a big issue without any simple answers.

By M

September 29, 2005 01:32 PM | Link to this

The same people who want these types of programs are the same ones that fought to remove prayer and God from schools. Guess this goes with the old adage - Be careful what you wish for.

By old teacher

September 29, 2005 01:34 PM | Link to this

Dan, It does require membership. I tried to get to it but couldn’t.

By chuck

September 29, 2005 01:44 PM | Link to this

We have a lot of “m to m” students in my school which is primarily a white middle class school. m to m is the term used to describe students who are a minority in a racially identifiable school who are able to transfer to a school that has a majority of another race. The m to m students in my school are black and come to our school by choice for the educational opportunity here.

What I have found to be true most of the time is that these students don’t do very well grade-wise because they often lack organizational skills and don’t turn in homework. On the other hand, they do fine when it comes to standardized tests. They also have some trouble fitting in at times and as a result tend to act out a little more than the majority of my other students, but all in all, I think they add a lot to the school.

By Jake

September 29, 2005 01:47 PM | Link to this

The busing approach is terrible. Helpful for the APS kid that would be bused out to Dunwoody, but what about the Dunwoody kid bused into APS to take his place? I just wonder if those generational poverty books all you socialists have read ever mention generational stupidity. Capitalism will always result in winners and losers. The losers will fail for lack of opportunity, ability, or motivation. While there may be somewhat less opportunities for the generational poor, it seems their general lack of accomplishment is more the result of poor motivation due to culture and uncaring parents (the generational part) or the family has been wading in the shallow end of th gene pool and can’t overcome the ability deficit of having an IQ of 85.

By Nikole

September 29, 2005 01:49 PM | Link to this

RF- I think that one way to begin instilling middle class values is for kids to go to school in middle class setting.
M- I did not quite get your connection. I am a devout Christian that believes that many of our problems in society is due to the fact that many of us are not “practicing” Christianity. I support prayer, but I also support this program. One has nothing to do with the other.

By Ernest

September 29, 2005 01:51 PM | Link to this

Nikole, I don’t apologize for making sure my children ‘get theirs’ because I see that as my duty as a parent. I am going to reach out and try to help others ‘get theirs’ at the same time. Whether anyone gets it will be up to that person. I believe most on this blog have a sense of community, compassion and sincerely want to help but not at any cost.

Someone mentioned in an earlier blog about the failed education experiment in Kansas City with social engineering. It makes politicians feel good during election time and initial implementation however most are not around when the results come in.

By Nikole

September 29, 2005 01:56 PM | Link to this

Jake- are you telling me that as a black female, (double minority) in this country, I have the opportunity to overcome and become anything I want? Even President of this country? Please don’t buy into that. I have to work twice as hard as my white male couterparts so that we end up in the same place in life. Generational poverty is much deeper than what you are trying to make it into. It’s mentally crippling and I do not appreciate your making light of such a situation.

By Nikole

September 29, 2005 01:59 PM | Link to this

Ernest- You are a blessing to those that you help to “get theirs” as well. Continue to do that and encourage others to be advocates for all children as well. Right now, you are truly an exception to the rule.

By M

September 29, 2005 02:09 PM | Link to this

I’m not connecting prayer to this program. My connection is the people who would push for socialist programs like this are the same people who would insist that God and values have no place in school. This is a socialist program. Make no mistake. When you take from one group because they have and give to another because they don’t, that’s socialism. I’m also a Christian but that has nothing to do with this program or others like it. I have always believed God helps those who help themselves. The desire to have a better life and access to the possibilities that are there used to be all that was needed. While I can empathize with the poor kids having grown up that way, I can also say that having things handed over simply because you’re poor will do nothing for work ethic. I saw kids I went to school with in very similar situations to mine. Some grew up like me to be productive members of society with the better life we had worked for. Others ended up staying where they were and stagnating or in jail. Where you end up in life has a lot to do with your own ambition. Some people just have little or none.

By RF

September 29, 2005 02:10 PM | Link to this

Jake—just so you know, I happen to be REPUBLICAN—I’m also a realist. As a teacher, I have to be open-minded. And you know, I learned a lot about kids from poverty. You should read up on it before you call anyone who tries to help them a socialist. Let’s be adults and refrain from name-calling. It is immature and pointless. We need do discuss ways to improve these kids’ lives, not call each other names for trying to understand.

By RF

September 29, 2005 02:18 PM | Link to this

M—so what do we do as teachers with those kids who don’t have ambition or come from encouraging homes? Do we just ignore them? We have to do something to help them learn and instill the values you and I have so they stand a chance of succeeding. I’m not talking socialistic giving away of anything. I’m talking about helping them learn the values that will give them a chance to move up. They don’t get them just by being here. We have to reach out a little more. I may sound like a bleeding heart- I’m not. I’m just a teacher (conservative at that) who’s looking for ideas about how to teach kids from bad environments how to make life better.

By Booyah

September 29, 2005 02:20 PM | Link to this

I guarantee you that, if given the $500 schbillion that goes into the public schools, the private sector would ease this problem. No doubt. No incentives now to improve the system.

By M

September 29, 2005 02:27 PM | Link to this

I’m not sure how to fix the problem. I just know that we shouldn’t punish the kids that live in better neighborhoods, and that is what busing them does.

By RF

September 29, 2005 02:30 PM | Link to this

M- that’s why I don’t think busing is ever going to work. Many have tried it and probably will again. Eventually it ends up being a nightmare. But, being in a school with a population of mixed economic and social levels, I have to try to help the lower kids. Busing definitely isn’t the answer. What do you think about magnet schools so parents have some choices?

By Dick

September 29, 2005 02:55 PM | Link to this

I will add this, those in my area who live in poverty has no desire to come out of that classification. They are happy sitting at home getting a check 1st and 3rd of month, poking fun at the working class of people. The government can pour all the money they want to in my area, but it isn’t going to change a thing. many children today at school who fall into the class of poverty is there because their guardians will not answer the questionaires honestly. We had one family 15 years ago who owned 15000 shares sof AFLAC stop, two homes, and a gas station and his kids ate free lunches. How, because they lied on application and our government will now allow adminsitration to check the applications.

By Billie Brown

September 29, 2005 03:39 PM | Link to this

Good writeup, but there’s just one ‘t’ in ‘plummet,’ fyi…

By SWC

September 29, 2005 04:01 PM | Link to this

Nikole - How on earth did Condoleeza Rice make it? She is a woman. She is black. She is from Birmingham, AL. Hint: It was not through “affirmative action”.

You keep putting not only yourself, but and entire sex (women) and race (black) into a box. If you are having trouble finding success, then you need to figure out why you are not succeeding. If you are succeeding, but think you are alone, think again!

The fact is that as a black female you have a better chance at success than a white male (all things being equal such as SATs, grades et al). Colleges will seek you out. Businesses will seek you out. Corporate policies demand “minority” recruiting.

Furthermore, because of Title 9 programs, women in sports have a huge advantage over men when it comes to getting admitted to schools and getting scholarships. If you play a sport that is historically “male dominated”, where fewer women then men participate, you’re golden.

For example, a male golfer needs to score in the 60’s while a female golfer can score in the 80’s (something my 11 son year old can do can already do, but for him it won’t be nearly good enough).

So, maybe you should try golf!

By Dick

September 29, 2005 04:09 PM | Link to this

I can’t understand how people can continue to make excuses. Several years ago I had pleasure of speaking to a minority lady who raised 5 kids in Miami as a single parent back in the 60’s and 70’s. She offered no excuses, she worked 15 hours a day as her husband was no good and stayed away from home 99% of the time. her five children knew when school was out it was time to do homework and then housework. She did not let them shoot baskets on corner with rest of neighbors. Did it pay off? Yes, her sacrifices she said was worth it when one child became administrator at U of Florida, one pass bar exam, one is Director of Nursing at Mayo clinic, one is a physican in private practice and the other is a college professor. She could have used excuse—black, female,, Miami, single parent. She didn’t. She was willing to make sacrifices. Just as soceity today is so quick to label a lazy child ADHD, many people look in the mirrow and say they are doomed. I have lost many promotions at work because of afirmative action.

By PosterChild

September 29, 2005 04:22 PM | Link to this

Wow, people love playing the race card on this blog. There was busing here once (DeKalb County to be exact). If you get the notion, check out Freeman V. Pitts (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=503&invol=467).

By Taxpayer

September 29, 2005 04:39 PM | Link to this

Several folks have commented that we should not punish children because of where they live or the circumstances in which they live. As one writer pointed out, many kids live in generational poverty. We should at least try to teach these kids (and ALL kids, really) that if they have babies while they are teenagers, they pretty much guarantee that they and their children will live in poverty. The school can only teach so much. The government needs to stop rewarding people for having children that they cannot support. So what’s the answer — mandatory birth control? condom handouts? more sex education? I don’t know. But I do know that we are encouraging the perpetuation of an underclass of impoverished people with government handouts.

By knowledge1980

September 29, 2005 04:56 PM | Link to this

Race and money divide this country like no other. Those two things curve our educational system, work, politics, and social life. Before we can began to tackle the issue of busing children to different schools, I think we need to start at the top and revamp our view of one another. The race card was slammed into this conversation because everyone (the majority that admit it) sees Priviledged=White and Underpriviledged=Black. Yes, a small minority of underpriviledged people do well in life and a small minority of priviledged do horrible. But the consensus is many people don’t break out of their circle of circumstance and just become another statistic. How do we fix that?……..

Also, we don’t need to hear war stories of how the world was against you and you had such a hard time. I’m a firm believer that no one owes you anything, but don’t hate the world because you made it on your own. It’s ok to reach back and TRY to do good for others!

disclaimer….Black male

By SWC

September 29, 2005 05:12 PM | Link to this

Taxpayer - You’re right - if you can’t afford lunch for your child then you shouldn’t be having children. Children should not have children. There is also plenty of birth control to go around so that is not an excuse.

The only “new” solution that I can think of is to reward people for not having children. Maybe give them a 10G check when they’re a certain age (24 ?) with certain conditions attached: Finish high school with Bs or better, go to college or technical school, and no children until then. Maybe give them some reward money for every year that they make it through “the program”. This would have to be privately funded, by a foundation or church, and obviously would only work for females because its too hard to prove if the males do or don’t have children. If there’s money at stake maybe the girls would say no to the boys…

This may sound wacky, but I also think it should be mandatory for every teenager and pre-teenager to listen to Dr. Laura for awhile. Maybe part of “social studies”? If you listen to her you will very quickly learn what happens when you make bad choices - tragic for everyone - the “parent” and the child.

Nothing else is working - so maybe someone could start a “pilot project”!

By Taxpayer

September 30, 2005 08:22 AM | Link to this

Hold on, SWC. Men are just as responsible for helping create these single parent homes as women are. How do you think women get pregnant in the first place? Osmosis? Immaculate conception? There is a way to tell if a man has impregnated a woman. It’s called a paternity test. I say find those men who have helped create a life and make them pay child support. Also, find those older men who prey on young girls and punish them to the fullest extent possible instead of hailing them as “playas.” Birth control is every man’s and every woman’s responsibility, so let’s teach them how and why they should use it. I don’t think your “pay for no play” plan will work, but how about this: can we as a community, as adults, as mentors, as teachers, as ministers, coaches, or others in our children’s lives show through example and word that if teens have babies, it will hold them back from reaching their goals and dreams? And yes, SWC, this will hold back the men, too, if they must work to pay child support.

By RF

September 30, 2005 08:29 AM | Link to this

Dick—if you had an ADHD child, you’d know it isn’t about being lazy at all. Some may be mislabeled, but as a successful parent of an intelligent ADHD child, let me tell you it isn’t something we just cooked up to make excuses. His brain works entirely differently from yours and mine, and he requires a lot of work. He succeeds because we discovered the problem and implemented changes to help him along with medication. It isn’t just about a pill to “cure” it.

Also, a general question for all. Regardless of why they are here and what they do or don’t deserve, how do we help kids from bad circumstances learn the skills and values to want better? It’s a quandry for us in the schools and that’s where we can make a difference if we just had the tools to do so. How do change kids’ thinking and beliefs so that they don’t become part of the seemingly endless cycle of poverty?

By Taxpayer

September 30, 2005 08:41 AM | Link to this

RF and all, I believe early intervention programs like Head Start, and successful mentoring programs, such as those that pair college students with younger students, could be at least part of the solution. However, mentors (and tutors) can come from the community at large. Over the years, I have seen children respond to adults who take an interest in them and believe in them. I say support these programs through your deeds or your dollars. I do.

By RF

September 30, 2005 08:50 AM | Link to this

Taxpayer—definitely a good step. In my area, we have a group of local business owner who have started a group for at-risk kids in middle/high school to offer some general tutoring and encouragement. The kids and adults meet weekly and discuss real-world skills the kids need to be successful in life. And this is all privately funded. It’s nice to have that, but so many schools don’t. Amazing isn’t it that schools don’t seem to be looking for these kinds of programs?

By Taxpayer

September 30, 2005 08:59 AM | Link to this

A couple of the schools where I mentored or saw mentoring programs weren’t looking for these programs either. However, some parents saw the need and approached a local college, who jumped on the idea. At another school, the parents came in and worked out a program with the principals. Many of the parents’ coworkers got involved, too. Sometimes schools don’t kow how to go about getting these essentially free and very beneficial programs. All it takes is some effort on someone’s part and some communication. I’ve seen the results from these schools. Children’s grades went up, they began to talk openly about going to college, and many of them settled down in class. I say call and ask your child’s school to have such a program. If you meet resistance, find out why. Become the liaison between the school and a mentoring group. This is one thing that parents and concerned adults CAN do to make a difference.

By RF

September 30, 2005 09:02 AM | Link to this

The nice part is, mentoring programs cost the schools/systems NOTHING to implement. Volunteer time and supplies are out there if people want to find them. It’s good you’ve been part of that. It does indeed make a difference.

By Dan

September 30, 2005 09:06 AM | Link to this

Rewarding people for not having children!!!! There are a lot of inane posts on these boards but that one might take the cake. Kind of like paying farmers not to grow crops

By SnottyNozeBrat

September 30, 2005 09:33 AM | Link to this

Hi Lisa,

-it is so much more “cool” to be hateful these days, no matter what your color. You sound like a caring person who is making a difference to those you reach. Keep on. Keep on operating from love and keep on being free to learn. It doesn’t stop even when you are grown. We still need to keep learning new skills so we can be competitive in our job market today.

best of luck.

By Karen Armsby

September 30, 2005 10:01 AM | Link to this

I think mentoring works best when it comes from within the community. And not necessarily adults helping children, but older children helping younger children. It can be as simple as high school band and orchestra kids coming to the middle school to help with music classes, or going to the elementary to be reading buddies to first graders a couple times a week, or tutoring and doing homework together after school.

Children learn that they are worth something when you identify them personally, give them meaningful work, and tell them you expect and know that they can do the job well. Then you give praise for a job well done and here’s your next job. This goes for the little kids and the high school kids. When their eyes are opened to helping each other and they feel good about it, then they will try more and achieve more.

If the parents don’t or can’t interact with their kids, then we (school and community) need to give the kids a model to help themselves. Look to literature and there are plenty of stories of self reliance in young children and their triumph over uncaring or absent adults. Read these stories to the kids and open their eyes to the power that lies within them to achieve. It worked for Peter Pan and the Lost Boys, right? It worked for Charles Dickens Oliver, and the Little Princess, and in the Secret Garden.

Just my opinion and I know I have named only ‘white’ people’s fiction, but I am know there are tales in all cultures of youngsters who succeed on their own. The best true story of personal success I read recently is by a young black man Farrah Gray, “The Reallionaire.”

You start small, with a lot of little projects, and you need leadership in the school working to organize and implement programs, but it can be done with NO money; you just need to recruit the volunteers to step up and help, adults and teens alike.

By Lisa

September 30, 2005 10:47 AM | Link to this

Once again the problem exist so far back this problem is not new, I remember when i was in school and how our black teacher would judge classmate base upon color, long hair good hair versus bad hair some teacher was known for belittling student especially those who live in housing projects.You see the problem in my culture is that we get education and we beat down our each other,of course there is nothing wrong with furthering your education and learning but it is when you don’t reach back in a loving uplifting way, you can see in our community right now how we don’t reach back because if we did we wouldn’t be in this mess, now i respect my sister and brothers who feel like i got mine you get yours menatality but you will feel the impact as well.there is no more middle class you either rich or poor,i just want to say to all who love to teach thank you but stop judging kids based on enviroment because we as people can make a diffrence with words! speak positive in someone life, i mean it’s like a seed you plant it and you water it and it will grow.I can’t speak to any other race but i can say this to my African American sister and brother wake up! and stop hating your own people! we are our Worse enemy and Yes i did say it and it is sad to SAY.Peace Be With You All.

By Nikole

September 30, 2005 10:59 AM | Link to this

SWC-It is frustrating to hear people discredit your point by throwing an exception to the rule in your face. Condoleeza is not the rule, but definitely an exception. She is also not representative of any black woman I know (and I am a Spelman graduate). Please do not tell me how “easy” it is for me to succeed. I do count my self a success, but black women as a whole will not have succeeded until I see a representative number of us in positions of power and authority (these positions are currently held by a majority of white males) I will count my race a success when we begin to realize our full potential and succeed in schools like our white counterparts. Also, I do not need to try golf, I am an advocate, that’s what I do and what I will continue to do until I see change in our current educational system. Be Blessed.

By JR

September 30, 2005 11:10 AM | Link to this

Nikole—I don’t want to argue, but present a little twist on your comment. I am a white male not in a position of power and authority. I sometimes feel guilty for having been born to my gender and race because so many people are counting heads. I have seen in recent years that it is easier to get a promotion if you are female or black in SOME industries. I have seen women promoted whose only qualification was gender. I’m not saying it’s wrong to balance numbers, but isn’t it more important to consider qualifications? Why am I the last one considered for promotions because of my gender and race? I’ve been passed over when I was told I had the necessary qualifications to end up working for women who needed me to help do the job they were getting paid for. It’s time to quit counting heads and making white males feel bad for being born what they are. I can assure you we aren’t promoted just because of our gender and race. I think as a nation we will never truly heal the rift between ethnic groups until we quit making it an issue every day. I’m tired of feeling like I’m so overprivledged just because of my gender and race. If you saw my bank account, house, and car you wouldn’t think I had many advantages!

By Lisa

September 30, 2005 11:25 AM | Link to this

I read an article this morning in the paper about Parkview High School and my hat goes off to them, in our African American community we can do the same thing if we our educated blacks would reach back and help there own so we can all learn how to write grants learn public policy and on resources which are available.Instead we move in the boondocks thinking we made it and let me say this again there is nothing wrong with wanting great community and great schools clean and safe neighborhood but we can have that among each other,right now in the city of Atlanta we have other races moving back into neighborhoods that we took for granted so you see we as black people need to priortize whats important but we continue to lose sight on family community and love and that’s why we as a race black people are at worse now then we were 30yrs ago.we spend the most money but don’t own nothing we we are the most educated but still are the employee we sing we dance we help other people corporation become fortune 500 but we don’t have nothing! and I get so angry when I know how we as a race treat each other and assume just because you got a degree i’ve made it when our prison or filled up with black boys in a grown man body we have millions of our brothers in prison! tell me this by 2020 who will our young black women married!Peace Unto All.

By JR

September 30, 2005 11:31 AM | Link to this

Lisa—drive out to South Fulton county some time and see what African-Americans are accomplishing. There are some very high priced, elegant neighborhoods out there where young, successful African-American families are moving. I don’t blame them. Those are wonderful homes and communities. I wish I could afford to live there. Something must be going right if that many people can afford to move. The new subdivisions are selling as fast as they can be built.

By Nikole

September 30, 2005 11:35 AM | Link to this

JR- I understand your point. But please recognize that “counting heads” would not be necessary if our country was not overwhelmingly dominated by white men. The rift between races in this country will never be healed as long as those of the dominant culture want to “stop making an issue of race.” Blacks have been made to feel bad for being born black since we got here. Ignoring the problem or pretending that one does not exist is not a solution.

By JR

September 30, 2005 11:46 AM | Link to this

Nikole—I’m not saying there isn’t a problem, but look at the number. Everyone says there isn’t a fair number, but where are we in comparison to percentage of the population? I read recently that African-Americans make up 13% of the population nationwide. How is it right to expect the same number of executive positions when only 13 out of every 100 people are African-American? What happened to affirmative action? I have to wonder at times if anything will ever solve the problem. No matter how many positions are made available, the number will never be the same with population figures like these.

By Lisa

September 30, 2005 11:56 AM | Link to this

JR:I’am very aware of the community the homes sell for a half a million dollars so we know the income level and education level is great! however what about my sister and brother who don’t own there business or employee for a fortune 500 company, now what do we tell people who can’t afford to be in that community? do we expect for school to be bad community to be dirty and not safe.NO!it’s people like you who Dr. Martin Luther King told his wife he did not want to live around,the bogie blacks who have things but have lost touch with the people.Once again i’am not against education or safe clean neighborhood and school but you tell me this what percentage of the blacks in that community even send there kids to the local school?well i can tell you right now it would be very low you see they send them to private schools.Once again this is nothing more then me saying why do we run from our heritage why do we hate each other base upon people, places and things, why do we judge upon what side of town you live on what company you work for or if he’s a doctor or a garbage man.I really feel bad for my race as a whole because we try so hard to have what the caucassian race have and do and we can do greater but we don’t and want until we accept ourself.you have doctors architect engineers artist lawyers teahcer professor right now in the prison you know why? becuase of ignorance not being farther no guidance no love being put down molested as a child and of course drugs to escape the pain.I would rather live in a neighborhood where you can come see me without gates and people of all color and walk of life not just the elite I LOVE PEOPLE.JUST LIKE GOD ASK ME TO DO.He didn’t say black he didn’t say white he didn’t say 300,000 dollars home only people or 60 rent people he said LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.WAKE UP PEOPLE WE ARE ALL PEOPLE AND HIS CHILDREN.LET HELP ONE ANOTHER.

By Dan

September 30, 2005 12:56 PM | Link to this

Nikole Ignoring the problem and pretending it doesn’t exist is no more damaging than exagerating the problem and pretending it is the source of all your (as a race) ills. Until the black community listens more to Bill Cosby and less to Jesse Jackson these things will continue

By James

September 30, 2005 01:18 PM | Link to this

I was a part of busing experiment in Alabama in the 60’s and early 70’s and it was a nightmare for my siblings and myself. To achieve a racial balance we were bused to a school nine miles from our doorsteps. The school we wanted to attend was within walking distance. One by one I watched the ‘bused’ kids drop out of high school as soon as they turned sixteen. Others, including myself, ended up giving false addresses in order to go to the school of our choice. I lied, sure, but I also graduated high school, then went to college and was able to elevate myself to a higher soci-economic level. What I ended up doing was reaching the goal the education system of Alabama had in mind (in theory anway)by staying in school, but not by the means they proposed, busing. The kids at the school we were bused to did not want us, we did not want to be there, so…what did we achieve here? Some times plans on paper don’t tranlste to good common sense once put into action.

By RF

September 30, 2005 01:34 PM | Link to this

James—exactly the point many have tried to make. All of us have the opportunity to succeed if we have been taught to want that. Whatever hurdles life puts in front of you can be overcome or gotten around if you have the desire and a goal to reach.

By Lisa

September 30, 2005 03:03 PM | Link to this

Dan:I disagree to agree that we as black people need to listen more to Bill Cosby, we have to get to the root of the problem and trust me it don’t have anything to do with 500 tennis shoes are the kids he call monster who get out of school cussing.you see Dan in our community the problem go all the way back to the plantation days so we must not rush to adhere to Mr.Cosby so fast, because i will never go to a get together and discuss what my sister and brother need to do behind there back I would say it to there face in a respectful way not in belittling way.you see if Mr. cosby know this is a problem why keep talking to people who agree with you and share the wisdom with people who he say is the problem.why would they listen to him when he need to sahre how to stay married even when you cheat on your wife.he is not exempt just because he donate money to morehouse college or just because he have HONORNARY DEGREES!I can’t understand Mr.Cosby OPRAH AND OTHER ELITE BLACKS WILL NOT HELP MORRIS BROWN COLLEGE.This school was started by blacks for blacks not like Spellman which was started for slave children of slaves master,now don’t get me wrong education is education but Morris Brown is our Heritage!!! we continue to step over people who really need us to reach to other school who really don’t.I will never recommend to the average person to get wisdom from Mr.Cosby because he only condemn.People need hope with guidance and instruction on life,people need to be talk to not talk at Mr Cosby really means well but his behavior is to traditional from back in the day mentality in the black community and that mentality have kill many spirits and is no longer needed, to talk to people today in our black community we need honesty we need don’t talk about be about I say shame on some of my people in my race for being the most religious group of people but will not share the truth with one another we can’t have it both ways.Once again I love my race I just hate how we are as a race especially towards each other there’s no real LOVE.

By Dan

September 30, 2005 03:56 PM | Link to this

I agree with some of your points Lisa and Cosby’s take is certainly much closer to your point than Jacksons. Cosby says help each other out and lift yourself. jackson says it’s all the white mans fault. If your situation whatever it may be is not of your making you have no control. If you take responsibility for your actions then you have the power to change them. That is what is needed and that is Cosbys message. Quite frankly it is an intelligent message for anyone of any race who finds themselves on the wrong side of the poverty line (there are more whites in poverty than blacks btw) The only reason to be in poverty for and extended period is lack of effort. Their are far too many opportunities in this country to say otherwise

By kristin

September 30, 2005 04:17 PM | Link to this

I agree that at some point people have to be held accountable for decisions that they make in life. But are we expecting elementary school children to poses this level of self-actualization? I could not afford to go to collage after high school and I have had to work very hard to put myself through school. It has taken me 10 years to obtain a Bachelors Degree. It has always seemed to me the people who are first to say “oh government programs, giving money to the lazy poor people� are the same people who have never had to worry about money. They simply coasted from high school to college to some career that their daddy or frat buddy had connections to. As far as welfare programs, with they way health care is structured in this country, aren’t the majority of us one serious diagnosis away from financial ruin?

By RF

September 30, 2005 04:23 PM | Link to this

Not to sound insensitive Kristin, but I have to agree that we give away too much to too many. Like you, I worked my way through school and still spent ten years paying off education loans. Don’t assume that those who don’t favor welfare had “daddy’s money”- most in fact worked their way through like you did. My daddy was broke like me but helped when he could. What ticked me off was seeing so many students, who dressed better than I did, who received financial aid because of ethnic heritage. We do, as a nation, make it too easy to be poor by choice, and too hard to get off assistance for those who might want to.

By kristin

September 30, 2005 04:37 PM | Link to this

Dan,

If it were as simple as lack of effort, there would be no such thing as “working poor” which makes up the majority of those who are impoverished today. The social ecoomics is far too complex to simply state “get a job” or “go to school”. A great number of those who fall into the catagory of working poor are simply trying to get through today, (with a roof over thier head, and food in the belly)It is very easy to get caught up n the day to day life to have a “five year plan”.

By Lisa

September 30, 2005 04:40 PM | Link to this

RF:The reason why it’s hard for many people to get off welfare reason is they have been condition not only physically but mentally as well it take 30 days to make anything a habit so just imagine 5yrs 10yrs or even 20yrs ON WELFAR.It’s not just people fault it’s government fault as well you see your government use people for social gain and when they are tired they snacth away what they use to destroy people.It’s just like public housing in the city of atlanta it was built for the white’s who was poor doing the depression and president Roosevelt created Techwood Housing which was all white now welfare was not created for blacks it created for white’s doing the depression and blacks got on it they told the woman you can’t have your husband there.now the white’s was not position like that, they was able to keep there family together until the man was working again,but? the black woman could not have her husband in the home a tv or a working iron, and god clearly tell us the man is the foundation when the man fall the house tumble.RF you can’t say what you say without knowing the reason and here is your reason for blacks and no i’am not Jesse Jackson i don’t believe in that white this BECAUSE WE KNOW THEY DID!!!.THEY RULES OR NOT LEVEL LIKE A PLAYING FIELD IT’S NEVER LEVEL.AND THAT’S THE SAD PART.YOU MAKE RULES NOT TO BE EQUAL OR FAIR.

By James

September 30, 2005 04:43 PM | Link to this

This is not a black or white issue,it’s an economic issue. I’m a middle aged white male. I seriously doubt that many of the poor people referenced in these messages really enjoy being poor and having to rely on hand outs or assistance of any kind. Sure some may, but not most.

By Lisa

September 30, 2005 04:50 PM | Link to this

James:your correct this is not a race issue this is a history lesson we need to get Fact first before you point the finger, once again I have a big problem with my race who destroy one another put down each other and kill one another.It’s only fair for me to shed some light on what and where WELFARE came from, and hoe government use people from all walk of life against each other.I’am poor monetaty wise but rich in spirit and right now all my needs are met.BUT you better believe there is someone out there in my race who can show me hoe to be more wealthier but guess what I STILL GOT TO PAY TO HEAR THEM!!! EVEN MY LOCAL PASTOR I GOT TO BUY HIS BOOK.

By Dan

October 3, 2005 10:22 AM | Link to this

You are absolutely correct Kristen if it was lack of effort and it is there would be no such thing as “working poor” and there isn’t, that is a liberal fallacy. You could rise above the poverty line flipping burgers as long as you show up for work on time.

By RF

October 3, 2005 11:35 AM | Link to this

Lisa—I’m trying to understand the last part of your post, but it’s a little garbled. If I’m reading you correctly, you are blaming whites for the welfare generations we’ve created. I don’t think we need to blame anyone but focus on educating people and helping them learn how to work their way out of poverty, with some help. We can’t, for any reason, continue to let generations of folks go without education and stay on welfare. Why do some make it and others don’t? You have a richness of spirit that many don’t have. How can you get some of your determination to have a better life to others? Right there is one answer to the problem. I’m not blaming anyone for being poor, but I am saying, and will continue to say, that with the proper resources, they could learn to work their way out. At least some of them could…

By Nikole

October 3, 2005 11:54 AM | Link to this

Dan-The class of working poor is growing every year. It is a reality in this country. And please write an inspirational book about all of the people that made it out of poverty by flipping burgers. It would be encouragement to those in that situation and even to myself. I fear that you will find it to be an extremely hard task to find such people. Peace and love

By RF

October 3, 2005 12:16 PM | Link to this

Technically, there were more working poor in our parents/grandparents generations. What we consider poor today is light years ahead of what was poor then. And when did we lose the work ethic that drove this country? We had it until welfare programs began. Back thenyou worked and earned what you could and made do with that. We had many, many working poor before minimum wage and OSHA regulations. We had many working poor before unions appeared. Yes, there are many who work hard and have very little. There will always be a bell curve that includes those who work and have little. But, if you start by flipping burgers and keep at it, you will eventually be promoted (assuming you EARN it) and make more money. It takes years sometimes, but you can improve your status if you want to. Why do they call this the “land of opportunity”? Why do so many flock here if not for the chance to have a better life? SOME, not all who are poor, squander their opportunity and whine about what they don’t have. Check Amazon.com—they have multiple books about how ordinary people without rich families achieved success and wealth. J.K. Rowling (Harr Potter author) was a poor single mother who often skipped meals in order to feed her daughter. She made it. Why can’t more people here do the same?

By Dan

October 3, 2005 01:19 PM | Link to this

What does working poor mean Nikole, You could write volumes and volumes about people making their way from poverty by flipping burgers digging ditches, or the equivelent. As a matter of fact that is exactly the type of experience most people in this country have as their heritage if not their personal experience. Millions of immigrants have come to this country and still do with nothing but the cloths on their back and worked their way to what we call middle class and what to most of the world would call rich. The people that are hard to find are those who truly do work hard and remain poor. Being rich or poor is not a matter of money, money is simply a tool by which we convey value. There will always be a distribution curve with the higest contributors on one end and the lowest on the other. sure their are peolpe who make both more and less than they contribute, but the vast majority of people are well withing the range their work and decision making has made for them.

By SET

October 3, 2005 03:40 PM | Link to this

Why would anyone allow a normal child to be in a classroom with underclass children? When I was a child we weren’t even allowed to talk to them.

When you scrimp and save to buy a house in a good neighborhood it’s so that your kids can go to school with kids from similar families. Nowadays both parents go to work often just to be able to afford a nice neighborhood with connected schools. Bussing? I don’t think so!

By HS Science

October 3, 2005 04:37 PM | Link to this

Will it work? To some degree the mixing of economic classes in the classrooms can make a difference if … That is if the student wants it to.

For the last few years, my school has tried the Balanced Class- there is gifted then everyone else, no more lumping students by performance. Some previously lower performing and lower motivated students do improve, however, for the unmotivated student that does not care you can place them anywhere and achieve the same results if not worse.

There are times when the unmotivated, uncaring students can have a negative effect on a class. Sure, I’m supposed to entertain the students, make the class fun and be their motivator - after so many years the energy is not there to be superperson anymore.

Basically, it will just increase the number of buses ,bus drivers and cost.

By Lee

October 4, 2005 08:44 AM | Link to this

The social experimentation folks have been playing this game for 40 years. It goes back to the days of integration. Unfortunately, they are playing the game with mine and your tax dollar.

There are two main predictors of scholastic success - ability and motivation. Not a lot you can do about ability, that comes largely from the genetics of Mom and Dad. Motivation is the individual inner drive of the student. There are a lot of influences to motivation including peer pressure, parental influence, teacher influence, etc, etc.

All this amounts to is a statistical “normalizing” of schools. In the eyes of the government, it is better to have a bunch of “average” schools than to have poor schools in poor neighborhoods and good schools in middle class neighborhoods.

I’ve got a novel idea, how about fixing the poor schools instead of dragging everybody else down? Unfortunately, if you’ve got a lot of low ability students with bad attitudes in a school, there’s not much you can do.

By Karen Armsby

October 4, 2005 09:57 AM | Link to this

SET, What exactly is a ‘normal’ child and are you a ‘normal’ adult?