Get Schooled

By bob

September 28, 2005 09:23 AM | Link to this

kids&families need 3mo.off for summer

By VB

September 28, 2005 09:27 AM | Link to this

It’s not the quantity of instruction, it’s the quality. Two days really don’t mean a lot, in my opinion. Let it go.

By old teacher

September 28, 2005 09:27 AM | Link to this

I thought we had to make up any days after 2! Oh, well. If we would go to year round school, we would have our days out spread out and that might help with the gas prices. I do think that students need time off, but it doesn’t all have to be in the summer.

By Lisa

September 28, 2005 09:38 AM | Link to this

I would think that the board would not hold teachers or the student accountable for making up these two day due to emergency in the world we live in.it’s unfortunate that the governor request schools to be cancel but things happen,and we must move on.two days will not make or break kids.we need to calm down as parents and stand by our teachers.

By DB

September 28, 2005 09:50 AM | Link to this

Get over it. Students remember about 5-10% of what they learn in anyway, so 2 days doesn’t make a lot of difference. Life is all about dealing with curveballs.

By SWC

September 28, 2005 09:53 AM | Link to this

Old Teacher - Year round school will not help with gas prices or infrastructure costs in general. If the school districts were serious about saving money schools would be closed in August and open until first week in June. We lose a fortune in utility costs and millions in lost tourism dollars. Less money to educate our kids and higher property taxes result. Not to mention raising a generation of kids who are stuck in daycare in February when they could be canoeing on a lake in August.

Two days lost is meaningless. My son’s middle school told us in our newsletter last week that “we will only be spending 1 or 2 days a week on literature”. He gets 2 periods a day of language arts and reading for a total of 120 minutes. What will they be doing? Well, after reviewing prepositions, they will start with “Predicate Nominatives and Predicate Adjectives”.

I wrote all my friends who are writers - novelists, columnists, people who got perfect SAT scores and perfect English Achievement scores; people who attended schools like Vassar, Columbia, Georgetown International and Stanford U. They did not know off hand what a predicate nominative was - they either never knew or had forgotten. Does anyone other than a linguist need to know this? Did these terms even exist in Shakespeare’s time? I’m all for teaching our kids the Kings English, but we don’t need to emphasize trivial information at the expense of literature. Our curriculum priorities are bassackwards so no matter how much time they spend in school they still won’t learn much of value - at least in the language arts area (I do think that the math and science curriculum is excellent).

By DB

September 28, 2005 09:54 AM | Link to this

It sure is amazing how college students have 3 classes per week and learn 5 times as much information. The 180 day schedule is a magical number thought up by bureaucrats who feel the need to allocate funding and accreditation according to attendance. It really has little to do with instructional needs. Personally, I think kids and teachers should go to school less often and do more work on their own. That sure would save the taxpayers a lot of money.

By RF

September 28, 2005 10:04 AM | Link to this

If you look at history, the typical school year at one time was only about 90 days long—roughly between harvest time and planting time in spring. The 180 day year has only been around for a few decades as we became less agricultural and more urban/suburban. Two days isn’t going to affect much. And think about teenagers’ attitudes about school anyway. Do you really think two days is going to traumatize them that much? They’ll be fine!!

By Ashley

September 28, 2005 10:10 AM | Link to this

As a teacher, I find that the students do need breaks during the school year. This does not include weekends. The students are much more eager to learn and are more enthusiastic about assignments when they don’t feel that they are “in prison.” Those of us in the profession also need these breaks to help us plan and grade. The education of the kids should be the main priority, not gas or summer vacation. We need to look at what works best in helping students learn, not what makes it easier for the parents to find babysitters.

By Marney

September 28, 2005 10:10 AM | Link to this

Yes, our charter school discovered the Friday rule last year and made sure we ended our calendar on a Friday this year, just in case. Anyone want to take bets on how many districts already know this and won’t be making up those two days?

By Dick

September 28, 2005 10:14 AM | Link to this

DB; reason college students can learn more in less time is relatively simple. They know their parents cannot go to their professors and complain. parents of school children today think their children are “little angels”, they verbally abuse the teachers in school today, threaten them with law suits, etc. When I was in school, it was always the teachers fault when I failed a test. She asked questions I didnot know the answers to.

By retired teacher

September 28, 2005 10:24 AM | Link to this

Dear SWC Grammar details will be given more instructional time as long as standardized tests include grammar TERMS in the questions. Not only will predicate adjectives and predicate nominatives continue to be taught, but there is also an exciting unit on verbals in your child’s future. In many schools, middle school is last time students will receive such detailed grammar instruction. High school curriculum assumes the students have a command of grammar basics. I have long felt that the APPLICATION of the grammar rules should be used in assessment. I think the state writing tests are supposed to do that, but the grading in too lenient.

Your comment concerning literature reinforces my thoughts on yesterday’s topic in this column. Literature is a wonderful way to learn more about cultures and ethnic groups. I took an enjoyable trip down memory lane as I recalled the Hispanic student who discovered an author who had the same last name. The student and his family enjoyed reading the selections and the authors’ biographies in our literature book. I recalled African-American students discovering Mildred Taylor, Langston Hughes, Walter Dean Myers and others. As my students became more excited about reading, I witnessed wonderful class discussions where students realized the differences and SIMILARITIES in cultures.

Was every teaching moment during 34 years filled with such wonder? No. The more work I put into teaching, the greater were my rewards. Learning should not, must not, stop when a teacher’s last degree is completed. I know I learned more preparing to instruct my students.

By DB

September 28, 2005 10:46 AM | Link to this

Dick: I’m glad you mentioned that. I’ve been pushing that agenda for years. And by reading your posts for the last few days, I conclude we have similar opinions in that regard.

Few accept the real problem.

By DB

September 28, 2005 10:53 AM | Link to this

Also, I was being sarcastic with the word “amazing”. I just think high schools today are a serious waste of time and money. Behavioral and academic expectations need to be much higher in our school.

By DB

September 28, 2005 10:54 AM | Link to this

Typo: school = public schools

By chuck

September 28, 2005 11:11 AM | Link to this

The 2 days will not be a big deal in most classrooms. Had I known at the beginning of school on Friday that this would be the case, it would not have mattered to my students at all because I would have given them assignments to make up for the lost instructional time. As it is, I will make up one day by assigning for homework what we would have completed in class tomorrow.

What concerns me mor than the 2 days is that we lose 23 days of instruction to testing every year in the 8th grade in my district. We kill these kids with tests. We have the DAT, the COGAT, the ITBS, The 8th grade Writing Assessment, 4 days of practice CRCT’s, and the CRCT’s. That doesn’t include time lost for “bullying” assemblies, pep rallies, school pictures, band, orchestra, and chorus competitions, and on and on.

If it is all about saving fuel, here is an idea: Extend the school day by one and a half hours and go 4 days a week. We would also save on electricity, wear and tear on the buildings AND create a day when maintenance could be completed.

By SWC

September 28, 2005 11:13 AM | Link to this

Ashley - the education of our children (which includes what they learn outside of the classroom) should be a priority over how many breaks that teachers get!

I have had it with teachers whining about how stressed out they are and the demands for frequent breaks. Try working in the private sector where you get an average of 12 days off a year, then talk to me about “breaks” and “planning time”. Do I feel sorry for you? Not one little bit.

And I’ve had it with the snide comments about parents using schools as babysitters. To go back to the original topic, the school year is 180 days, so there is no need for additional “babysitting” days during the summer months - there are just better choices available to parents and children. I believe that to send a child to school in August is like sending him to “prison” - to use your term.

Morevoer, as a teacher you never have to worry about “babysitters” do you? You are always home with your kids no matter when their vacation is, aren’t you? And If you have a sick child at home you get a sub to fill in for you, don’t you?

By RF

September 28, 2005 11:13 AM | Link to this

DB—we’ve raised the bar, so to speak, in high school in the years I’ve taught. Unfortunately, teens in general seem more concerned about bellying up to the bar rather than reaching educational goals. We have to try to teach kids Algebra and Shakespeare, when all they see for their lives is “a job” and something along the lines of a Jerry Springer Show lifestyle. I agree that we need higher standards, but I would like to throw in the idea that we need to be able to track the “can’t do’s” or “won’t do’s” into a shorter, more life-skills program. My classes are clogged with kids who don’t care to the point that the ones who do are constantly having to wait while I handle discipline issues. Now, I love teaching, I try to inspire my students, and I do what I can to make my class interesting and satisfying for my students. But with all that, we still have tooooo many who just don’t care for whatever reason. Those are the kids that make a 180 day school year seem like an eternity!!

By Jeff Sexton

September 28, 2005 11:21 AM | Link to this

Year Round Ed, A Synopsis (This is to inform those who are obviously misinformed, however I also encourage independent research!)

Year Round ed has many options. Among them: “Seasonal offs”: My term for the “year round” philosophy of 25% of the students on “summer break” in any given season (Spring, Winter, Fall, Summer). Benefits: Schools can handle 25% more students, parents can choose when they want their vacations (Summer in the Maine Appalachains is a completely diff feel than fall, etc). Negatives: Logistics of teachers/ scheduling

On/Off: All students are in school for a set period then out for a set period. Common periods are 9weeks on, 3 weeks off, but I have heard of 2 months on, 1 month off and others. Benefits: Students (and teachers!) get a break every few weeks. Tutoring can be offered during the break for intensive remediation BEFORE bigger problems develop in longer terms. Negatives: Parents who view school as day care will be upset that every few weeks that day care is not avaliable.

There’s another one, but I can’t remember what it is. Please pardon this, I haven’t looked at this research since my sophomore year of HS (graduated HS in 01, just graduated KSU with a minor in Math Ed).

My personal favorite is the on/off, with local discretion as to what the periods are, as long as some state standards are met (be it a 180 day year or whatever, just know that some state standards would need to exist).

Jeff

By SWC

September 28, 2005 11:25 AM | Link to this

Chuck - Okay, let me see what hours you are proposing for this 4 day week. Give me a schedule.

When are kids supposed to get extra-curricular activities (like sports and music lessons)in? This might be fine if school is only a 15 minute ride on the bus, but my son spends 40 minutes each way just traveling to school. And will they be given some breaks with this schedule that they don’t get now? 15 minutes for recess for everybody? It is inhuman to expect children to toil away like this in classrooms with little or no fresh air and exercise and still be healthy individuals.

The Kentucky school system that you are no doubt referring to starts school on 8/1. Teachers go for a half day on Friday for “planning time”. If they care so much about saving money why don’t they close for August and stay in school until early June?

By Jeff Sexton

September 28, 2005 11:31 AM | Link to this

SWC:

I once saw a quote about education that is appropriate for your whining about private sector jobs (and if any of you teachers know where the exact quote is, PLEASE post it.. I haven’t seen it since Classroom Management in Summer 04!)

*I don’t see doctors or lawyers treating 30 individuals at any given moment, each of whom may or may not be able to communicate their needs - or even know what they are, some of whom are sneezing, coughing, crying, fighting, or sleeping, all of whom are supposed to be listening to the doctor/ lawyer. All the while said doctor/lawyer has to deal with mid-level management that has no clue what this doctor/ lawyer does and is trying to tell them how to do their jobs as well as the CEO who, whiles/he used to be on the doctor/lawyer level, now has to play politics with the mid-level management and more often than not sides with the managers, again, who have NO CLUE what the doctor/lawyer does.”

(That’s no where near the exact quote, but gets the general point across. I AM a teacher, and trust me, 99% of the parents I’v dealt with have absolutely no clue how much is involved. However, I do invite anyone who truly wants to see what we do to go through an Ed program or even shadow me around for ONE DAY.)

By HSTeach

September 28, 2005 11:37 AM | Link to this

well, let’s see….2 days on block is about 4 days of 6-period day schooling….so does missing 2 days count…in terms of EOCT readiness…your darn right it does… but hey, Sonny don’t care bout Edumacatin the chirren of Jawjuh…slong asn dey stay stoopid, nun dem gwan take his der j-o-b…. no, I’m not a fool enough to think that 2 days causes a student to become illiterate….but you get my point…hopefully

By Karen Armsby

September 28, 2005 11:43 AM | Link to this

It’s my understanding that the State and individual school systems mandate that a certain amount of material must be taught within the school year, and the teachers plan their lessons for instruction over that period of time. If the instructional time is shortened whether for standardized testing, gas days or snow days, career or field trip days, and the material is not covered, then who is responsible? I would say that the school administrations should provide the teachers and students with enough advance notice so that their schedules can be adjusted and the material can be covered in the time provided.

IMHO not all learning is done or should be done within the four corners of the classroom. Family sightseeing trips, college visits, club conventions, arts competitions, leadership training, etc., are all learning opportunities. Schools are preparing students for life in the real world, and the real world involves all of these types of activities.

Let’s not focus on how many days in the year students are in school, but how many years. As the age of first attendance in school has been pushed back more and more to pre-K attendance, and the students are being taught the basics earlier, then why not move the entire K-12 curriculum back one year, and cut off the senior year of high school? (so it would be pre-K to 11)

There are 19 and 20 year olds in high school being babied on our tax dollars that need to be moved onto independence and adulthood. The majority of the kids are graduating at 17 and 18, why not graduate at 16 and 17 and either go to college or get a job?

By RF

September 28, 2005 11:43 AM | Link to this

SWC- while I wouldn’t trade places with most in the corporate world, before you jump down our throats, come do the job. Teachers vent and complain because we have good reason. I’m sure your child is an excellent student and the one of those that keep us coming back regardless. I have a lot of those and they keep me doing the job. Just come in and be a teacher for a week and then let me know how you feel. You wouldn’t be so negative towards us I’m sure.

Also, in the corporate world, you generally get some compensation for overtime—be it comp time, bonus, promotion, raise, etc. I got a 2% raise this year that ends up being about $150 dollars a month. Teachers don’t get paid for the hours we spend planning, grading, going to inservice meetings outside the school day, or taking college classes to keep our certifications current. We do it because we love the job and believe in the sacrifice. Most schools also require us to buy paper for copies beyond an allotted amount, buy pencils to give our kids who refuse to bring them, buy supplies for extra activities so our kids have something fun to do once in a while, and all this while we have to put up with an ever-growing number of kids who come from completely dysfunctional backgrounds. But even with all that, I wouldn’t take a corporate job for anything. I at least have the chance to make a difference to a child who might just become someone really special one day. So don’t be so quick to judge us. We put up with a lot to do our jobs.

By DB

September 28, 2005 11:51 AM | Link to this

RF: Wow! $150 per month increase means you make $1800 more per year over 12 months at 2% increase you make $90,000? If only 10 months it’s around $75,000?

My question is WHERE DO YOU TEACH?

By DB

September 28, 2005 11:54 AM | Link to this

HSTeach: Thanks for the laugh!!!! :-) I love it!

By Jeff Sexton

September 28, 2005 11:56 AM | Link to this

To make 75K - 90K, you have to be in the system for 20+ years, AND have advanced degrees (I think Specialist is the minimum for the 75K+ pay grades, but I’m not sure.)

Private sector: There are jobs, MANY in my first degree, where I can make 75K+ with a BACHELORS in UNDER 5 yrs!

By Dick

September 28, 2005 11:56 AM | Link to this

SWC and Chuck- You have to be kidding me about going to four day school week. Our school administration would have a fit. It would mess up with football games. It is funny parents are all upset about kids missing two days of instructions. In my part of Georgia (south), they loose as many hours attending mandatory pep rallies for football team as they lost Monday and Tuesday.

By old teacher

September 28, 2005 12:03 PM | Link to this

SWC - I do hope you are running for ruler of the world. You do seem to have all the answers.

By RF

September 28, 2005 12:04 PM | Link to this

Let me rephrase the raise—I don’t teach Math thank goodness!! It actually figures out to be around $70 a month. Either I was wishing or I missed a division sign on the calculator!

By DB

September 28, 2005 12:09 PM | Link to this

RF: I completely understand it all. I’m a teacher. A agree with all that you said. Here are my dreams of public ed:

By RF

September 28, 2005 12:12 PM | Link to this

DB—especially #2. It’s so not worth the time I spend trying to pull kids up who don’t care or don’t want to care. I see the looks of exasperation on the good kids’ faces as they wait while I explain something simple over and over again. It’s not as easy to deifferentiate in one classroom as folks would like to think.

By Nikole

September 28, 2005 12:16 PM | Link to this

A little off topic, but based on SWC’s statment. Can someone please explain to me how beginning school in September and ending in June saves money as opposed to going from August to May? You still need air conditioning and it is the same amount of time. And year round school can be beneficial to teachers as well as students. Taking a vacation in another season besides summer could also prove to be quite educational for students. (That is if you already plan educational vacations for your kids)

By notateacher

September 28, 2005 12:23 PM | Link to this

SWC does your child actually spend 40 minutes on a bus or do you spend 40 minutes driving him/her to school in your SUV so that he/she can attend a school out of district that you like better?

By Nikole

September 28, 2005 12:24 PM | Link to this

I am sad to see people say that tracking is okay. What you fail to realize is that tracking is an institution designed to keep poor, minority students in their “place”. Students are tracked in lower levels beginning in elementary school. How do you realize a student’s life potential at such a young age. All you are doing is creating a self-fulfilling prophecy that that student will be nothing more than an employee. On the other hand, your middle and upper class surburban kids will be challenged to become leaders and the employers in our society. It is inherently racist and it is disappointing that educators still support such a system.

By swc

September 28, 2005 12:27 PM | Link to this

Jeff Sexton - Here we go again snidely dismissing concerns of working parents! Let me guess - You’re a teacher aren’t you? Your statement about parents viewing schools as daycare is incredibly arrogant and thoughtless. What do YOU propose as activities for children in rainy February for instance. Day care? Video games? Where do they get sports and exercise? When do they visit friends and family who aren’t on these wacky schedules? When do they travel? Going to Maine in February instead of August? You try explaining that to my husband who gets 10 days a year (total) vacation. Dream on. No sale.

And according to your plan, my son gets to give up summer vacation and go to daycare so that the kids who fail can go to intercession (if they even show up)? With the exception of Kindergarten when there may not be a previous record, you know by the end of the previous year whether or not the kids are “at risk to fail” or “failed”. No school should be surprised in October that the kid may not or will not make it. How many leave the school passing, but somehow become failures over the summer? Show me that data. How about summer school for those kids so they can get thorough attention BEFORE they go back to school? Or have year round charter schools for failing kids - don’t force my kid to sacrifice his life for them. Let me guess - its for “the greater good” - take my tax dollars and rob my child of his childhood. Kind of like Robin Hood.

Year round charter schools for failing kids would get us back to the “tracking” again, so the kids who pass and excel aren’t stuck with the kids who can’t, don’t, or won’t.

They are plenty of studies on the subject of intercessions, frequent breaks with short vactions, et cetera. There is no academic advantage to your proposal. The best you’re going to get is a stalemate. They studied this in North Carolina - a huge study - and they found no advantage to “intercessions”. It is also important to note that these studies usually only look at standardized testing results anyway. They don’t look at the well-being of the child beyond academic benefits - only a small part of our children’s education.

The vast majority of districts around the country who have tried these calendars eventually revert back to traditional calendars. It has been done in places like California to accomodate overcrowded schools, but as soon as fiscally possible they revert back to the norm.

By RF

September 28, 2005 12:38 PM | Link to this

Nikole—if a child enters kindergarten and doesn’t know basic colors, shapes, etc., how is it right to hold other kids back to catch him up? Now, assume he catches up—he’s no longer tracked. Tracking students doesn’t force them into anything any longer than they choose to be there. Tracks aren’t permanent. I have a son in second grade whose reading scores are above passing, but not in all areas. He’s been recommended for Early Intervention class—fine with me. He’s been in before and came out when his scores came up. Tracking isn’t permanent unless the child chooses for it to be.

By chuck

September 28, 2005 12:40 PM | Link to this

Boy, Talk about whining, SWC. I know this is hard for you to understand, but many of us were actually in the private sector before teaching. As for working conditions, I would take the private sector ANYTIME. I could pretty much set my own schedule, I made a lot more money, I could actually eat my lunch (and take an hour instead of 25 minutes)without having to worry about watching your little darling to make sure he doesn’t start a food fight. I didn’t have to take my work home with me. I didn’t have to buy my own supplies to do my job (except when I owned my own business). I left because I knew teaching is what I was supposed to do. I see it as a calling…NOT a job. It is becoming a job and one that is more difficult each year because of parents like you who think of teachers as your personal lackeys that should always be at your beck and call. To answer your question about why we don’t start in September, it is because we have graduation exams and end of the course tests in late November and late April. Under the old schedule, that would have been just over half way through the course. I wonder why the kids couldn’t pass? I asked the geniuses at the State DOE why they would give the test so early in the semester and they had no reason, but refused to change it. In the middle schools we take the CRCT’s in late April. Under the old schedule we had nearly 2 months of instruction AFTER the testing. Now I don’t mind being held accountable for my kids test scores, but don’t you think it is a little unfair to test the kids before we finish teaching them?

As for year-round schools, the COMMON misconception is that this involves more School Time. That is not the case at all. YRS go the same number of days as all other schools (180). They just divide the calendar up differently. They generally go 9 weeks on and 3 weeks off with about a 6-7 week summer break rather than the common 10 week break. It has never been 3 months in the 15 years that I have been teaching. We usually started the week before Labor Day and finished Mid June. As for this being a break for teachers, most of the YR teachers I know, volunteer their time during the intersession periods to tutor kids that are behind. While there is no significant evidence that yrs improve all test scores, there is evidence that it improves math scores and scores in general for ESOL students who tend to speak their native languages during the long summer break and have to get used to English again. Just as significant, I think, is the emerging evidence that there are fewer discipline problems in yrs than in traditional schools. This is especially important in that YRS in Georgia are typically in economically depressed areas where discipline is usually a bigger problem.

You also said: When are kids supposed to get extra-curricular activities (like sports and music lessons)in? This might be fine if school is only a 15 minute ride on the bus, but my son spends 40 minutes each way just traveling to school. And will they be given some breaks with this schedule that they don’t get now?

During the 8 years that I coached Little League, we never started a practice before 5:30…usually it was much later. These leagues will make adjustments, as will music teachers if they want to continue making a living. We will have to make significant adjustments in the classroom as well.As always, we will make it work for our students.

By BB

September 28, 2005 12:42 PM | Link to this

SWC…I sense some anger from you. Could it be that you’re jealous you’re not a teacher?

By Jeff Sexton

September 28, 2005 12:44 PM | Link to this

SWC - I’m not dismissing the concerns of working parents. I, like many teachers, simply get p** off when we hear all these complaints about school being closed. There are much more pressing issues than what you’re gonna do with your kid Monday when you know about it Friday. And even those issues (such as lessons/ projects) can be rearranged.

BTW: I completely agree with ya about the students who fail and yet are promoted anyway. However, I’ve encountered that - and its opposite: a student passes a class yet takes it again - and EVERY TIME I try to do something about it, Administration comes to me and basically says “This is what the parent wants, so its going to be done.”

I’m not a fan of tracking - I never even did it in college, when electives are tracked to what you WANT to do. For me, both personally and professionally, flexibility and mobility are key. In my class, I teach the material a certain way, but after you’ve passed my test using my way, feel free to work the problem your own way. I rarely thing about a problem the same way twice, and I don’t force my kids to use a fixed way (granted, AFTER I have a test with the one way… but that’s just CYA from Admin/ parents… AGAIN!)

I am a full supporter of educational reform. The system we’ve got right now is completely inadequate, paricularly in Math. But its gonna take EVERYONE: Parents, students, teachers, legislators, and College Ed departments to sit down, get some agreements, and really start reform. We’ve got to stop all the dang fighting and realize that we each (Are supposed to anyway) have one goal: the students learning. Period. Nothing else matters. If we discover that home schooling is truly the best option for learning and that government should have little or no control over the curricula, then so be it. (Note, that’s not a position I favor, just one extreme.) If we discover that students should sit still in steel chairs for 9 hours a day and face forward while the teacher lectures in a monotone and the federal government dictates the very words every teacher says every day is the best option for student learning, then that’s what we need to do. But we CAN’T keep up with the bickering and infighting and expect any real reform to happen.

By Teacher

September 28, 2005 12:44 PM | Link to this

Nikole, Maybe in your world. In my world (a school), there are many poor, minority students who would be on the advanced track, and just as many rich, white boys who would go vocational. You can’t make someone be something they are not; I cannot teach a college prep curriculum effectively in a classroom where more than half of the students have NO PLANS of going to college. I don’t think doing away with tracking has raised the bar or raised expectations…I tried for two years to do that and met with obstacle after obstacle.

By Nikole

September 28, 2005 12:50 PM | Link to this

RF- Please read up on tracking. I suggest Jacqueline Jordan Irvine of Emory. Upon your research, you will find that there is no plan to “catch kids up” in tracking systems. EIP is NOT the same thing as tracking. I love EIP programs, because they are meant to be a plan for bringing kids up to grade level. However, tracking punishes kids for what they do not know before they ever enter a school building. That kindergartener that you speak of is already being “trained” while those that were fortunate enough to have pre-school or caring, educated parents are going to be enriched and taught.

By Nikole

September 28, 2005 12:53 PM | Link to this

I would also like to say that my passion against tracking has much to do with me being in an elementary school. I do not think from the perspective of a secondary school teacher and that may be where many of our differences of opinion come from.

By RF

September 28, 2005 12:56 PM | Link to this

Nikole- I have read about tracking. In some countries, it is an absolute. Here in the good ‘ol USA you CHOOSE

By RF

September 28, 2005 12:59 PM | Link to this

Nikole- I have read about tracking. In some countries, it is an absolute. Here in the good ‘ol USA you CHOOSE which track you are on. Check your facts. Parents must give permission for diploma type choices. Not that it matters, since we don’t do it anyway. I just think it makes sense at the high school level to gear classes towards the interests and skill level of kids. College-bound kids don’t need to be in classes with kids who don’t care about school. It doesn’t pull any kids up—it only slows things down for the upper kids. I know—I live it every single day!

By SWC

September 28, 2005 01:03 PM | Link to this

To “Not a Teacher”: That would be ON A BUS IN OUR DISTRICT. And please do share with all of us why it would matter to you if I did CHOOSE to drive my child to school in an SUV instead of a Honda Civic. I bet you didn’t know that I’m psychic and can guess what political party you belong to by the mere mention of the SUV word.

To Jeff Sexton and RF and all the teachers who complain that I am being rude about teachers. YOU are the ones who say things like “parents use schools as babysitters”. I am responding to specific snide statements made by teachers who blithely dismiss the concerns of parents - the very concerns that teachers don’t have to worry about.

Nikole - Throwing all the kids together isn’t working so why continue with it? Good intentions?

Regarding going to school in August versus May or June, there is something called a “cooling degree day” which estimates how much energy it takes to cool a room. August averages about 440 days, while June has and September have about 315. So the FACT is that it costs more to go to school in August. Go to NOAA’s websites and figure it out for yourself if you don’t believe me.

RF - regarding the private sector, you are incorrect about how people are paid. Only lower level employees are paid overtime or time and a half. Once you move past the clerical level you are salaried, and get no compensation for all the hours spent on the job beyond 40 hours. Raises are based on inflation (and performance) and are around 1 to 2 percent a year. When you retire you do not get full salary and health care. You are forced to put a huge chunk of your money into social security instead of programs that some states have for their employees that actually earn money for employee. I worked in the private sector for 20 years, and when I left making $45,000 dollars a year in 1995. I was in management. I lived in New York City and 40% of my paycheck went to taxes. I did not get 180 days a year off -the most I ever got was 4 weeks a year and that was after 15 years. I got a check when I left (a “cash account balance”) in lieu of a pension. I get no health benefits.

Dick - I am opposed to the 4 day week! I wanted Chuck to give me a schedule just to see what he was thinking.

Old teacher - I’m not running for anything but apparently facts confound you. There is very little opinion unsubstantiated by facts in my comments.

By Lori

September 28, 2005 01:05 PM | Link to this

Think of how much more our kids could learn if they went to school year round. I’m not saying they shouldn’t get a break, but three months is a bit long. Adults have to work year round, and school is kind of like a job for kids.

By chuck

September 28, 2005 01:08 PM | Link to this

Nikole, Do you think that those students who come to kindergarden unprepared are going to catch up in a regular classroom where the number of students is greater and they are reminded on a daily basis that they don’t know what the other kids know? Ain’t gonna happen.

Instead, they get moved on OR WORSE, they get put into special ed where they will get further and further behind. Many of these students who are of average or better intelligence need an opportunity to move at their own pace, beginning where they are on the educational spectrum. There are programs that take a mastery approach in the early elementary years. They don’t have grade levels based on the traditional school such as K, 1st and 2nd. Instead, they move from objective to objective as they MASTER each one. This makes all of the difference in the world to these kids. There is no stigma attached and they don’t end up getting tossed aside like they do in the real world where we can’t track kids because it may hurt their self esteem. That is the real tragedy in education, that we can’t do what we need to do for kids, because somebody, (usually, some educational talking head)decided that self esteem is more important than accomplishment.

By DB

September 28, 2005 01:10 PM | Link to this

Nickole: You’re talking about tracking that’s improperly implemented. Don’t confuse that with the tracking I mean. Life is tracking, and colleges track. Get with it, and don’t act as if poor kids are somehow “dumber” and will therefore be tracked differently. It’s a simple system of merit, period. Smart kids are bored and dumb kids are overwhelmed. No one benefits from this “one-size, hurt no feelings” attitude. Tracking works pretty darn well where I teach, and of course, it’s not public.

By Jeff Sexton

September 28, 2005 01:19 PM | Link to this

SWC: You state “the very concerns that teachers don’t have to worry about.” in regards to my posts.

Let me tell ya something: Yeah, we do have to worry about them. You see, I’m a beginner (first year) and in TAPP to boot. AND I’m a perfectionist anyway. So I do my ABSOLUTE best to get to school at 7am, stay there till 5 pm, and not miss a single game/ concert/ play that ANY of my students are in. You have one, possibly more, but certainly not 30 kids to look after. I have roughly 120. In my previous job working as a wilderness youth counselor, I WAS the parent. In some cases, the actual parents were a thousand miles away in every sense of the word. Granted, in this one I’m not with them physically 24/7, but that doesn’t mean I’m not thinking about them 24/7. I’ll give ya a typical example: I’m a 22 yo single male. I want to go to bars and hang with my friends, have a few drinks and shoot some pool. But I worry about my kids seeing me either going in or coming out (I teach HS, so its possible), so I typically do my drinking at my house. I know a lot of PARENTS who keep alcohol in plain sight of their kids a lot of the time.

And childcare, etc: Thankfully, I do not have a family right now, you’ve got that part right. But that doesn’t mean I can just call in sick any old time I want. Ask any teacher: getting a sub is actually MORE work than just going to work that day. And as I mentioned earlier, I’m a perfectionist with extraordinarily high standards for myself anyway. I look at it like this: If I’m gonna expect my students to do something, I have to do it to an even more exacting standard. If I expect my students to dress modestly and obey even the minimum standards of the dress code, my personal standard for attire is that my students will never see me with less than a long sleeve button up shirt, slacks, dress shoes, tie, and jacket. Note that even a lot of fellow teachers think this is insane. But I have high expectations of my students, so I MUST model an even higher standard in myself.

Do you do that at your private sector job?

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

September 28, 2005 01:27 PM | Link to this

I honestly believe that many of you should not be in the education field, based upon your statements.

To answer todays question, No, they should not have to make up the two days in question. I hope we do not have a harsh winter as some have predicted, because we might just need those two days for a real emergency.

By Been there?

September 28, 2005 01:33 PM | Link to this

If you want to make a learned observation about education, more over, public schools, then take time to walk a mile in an educators shoes. Go out and become a substitiute teacher, see what challenges both the students and teachers face on a daily basis. Don’t just do this for a day, as even the most difficult situations can be still for a single day. Personally, I would LOVE to see our government officials spend a week as a substitute or even as an observer in a school, talk to the educators, parents and students, get a feel for what is really going on today, not ” back in my day” as the world has changed from then.

By jello

September 28, 2005 01:34 PM | Link to this

Cmon guys, you can’t compare teaching to corporate jobs and accurately conclude anything. Some people make a ton of money in the private sector, many do not. Some get big bonus, many do not. Some have pensions, many do not.

Have any of you even been to college??? You should know by now that comparisons require assumed facts. Assuming all corporate jobs are alike is just plain stooooooopid.

By notateacher

September 28, 2005 01:38 PM | Link to this

I don’t belong to any political party and I bet you have something to say about that. No, I don’t think you are psychic. I think you are psycho. I do see that you are one of those people who thinks that you are the only one entitled to an opinion and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong.

By old teacher

September 28, 2005 01:39 PM | Link to this

Is it a fact just because you say it is a fact, SWC?

By RF

September 28, 2005 01:40 PM | Link to this

SWC— the average person works five days a week, about 48 to 50 weeks a year. That translates to 240 to 250 days a year. I work 190, not counting extra days in the school beyond that for every extra that comes along that I think will benefit my kids. Typically, I put in about 210 days a year, and there is no paid vacation time. We are paid on contract for only the number of days we work. We get checks during the summer because they divide our contract salary by 12 instead of 9 or 10. And when you were in the private sector, did you bring work home seven days a week? Did you spend Sundays planning your work for the week? I’m not being snide or accusing parents of anything except failing to understand the demands and exhaustion of our jobs. If more parents tried as hard as you do to raise their children the right way, we wouldn’t be having this discussion right now. I’m not attacking you personally, but your continued raking of the school system and teachers leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth. I love my job, and the stresses that come with it. Please quit attacking every negative we put out there as teachers as “whining”. We’re just stating the obvious in the hopes that some people (who wouldn’t read all of this anyway) might think a little differently about what we do. Believe it or not, we’re on your side as a good parent. If you choose to take offense, that’s your decision. You’re obviously a good parent and hardly one of the ones who send us all the difficult children we are forced to contend with daily.

By crh

September 28, 2005 01:45 PM | Link to this

I do not know where some of the blog is getting their info but I have been teaching school for over 30 years with a specialist degree for 27 of those years and I make no where near $75,000. In fact with the rising cost of fuel and the cost of health insurance, I have really gotten no raise since the mid- 1990’s. The governor who did the most in terms of raises,etc. was Lester Maddox!!!!!

By Jeff Sexton

September 28, 2005 01:45 PM | Link to this

jello, you’re right to a point. But here’s something I was told on my interview for the wilderness counselor job, as it applies to teaching and the corporate world:

“This job is nothing like anything you’ve ever done before. Its extremely highly demanding and most days you’ll want to just run away. You’ve got to have the commitment and desire to stay and to make a difference or you and the kids are gonna be miserable. Its yours if you want it, but you gotta make sure you can handle it. I want you to think about that, I don’t want an answer right now. Examine yourself completely. Talk to your friends, your family. Make sure that this is where you need to be. Call me back Tuesday with your decision.”

One thing that I actually agree with Ed departments about: the ones that I have talked to all have a similar speech they give just before student teaching. I flat out admit two things: I don’t fit in Corporate America and many people don’t fit in education. Indeed, as John Chapman states: “The gift of teaching is a peculiar talent, and implies a need and a craving in the teacher himself.”

By Jeff Sexton

September 28, 2005 01:48 PM | Link to this

amen, RF

By chuck

September 28, 2005 01:52 PM | Link to this

RF, You said:

You’re obviously a good parent and hardly one of the ones who send us all the difficult children we are forced to contend with daily.

I think you are probably wrong about that. She may be a good parent…I don’t know, but I can tell from her attitude about teachers, that she isn’t doing anyone a favor in the classroom regarding her child. I would be willing to bet that she is one of those parents who comes up to the school to meet with the teacher to find out why her child “only made a 95 on this project” and wants to documentation for the points that you took off. Thiose are the parents who really gripe my butt. They disguise their motive as being “concerned” when what they really want is for you to recognize what they already know, “Their child is PERFECT”.

By faye

September 28, 2005 01:54 PM | Link to this

SWC - do the teachers and yourself a favor: either homeschool or become a teacher yourself. Your poor attitude and disrespect for the people you entrust with your son’s education will infect him with negativity toward education.

Your complaints sound like part of the problem and not part of the solution. Teachers don’t have it that easy - I don’t have to arrange for a sub for my job, and prepare work for the sub to do in my place - I just call in sick. I don’t have to babysit during my lunch - I can use the rest room when I want - I don’t have to call clients in the evening and give them bad news about their children.

What do you think teachers do with their children on teacher WORK days? They’re certainly not taking them to work with them.

Like the old expression says, you need to walk a mile…

As far as the topic goes - no, they shouldn’t make them up. This was an unusual emergency. During the Blizzard of ‘78 many schools needed to be shut down for about a week. School systems had the option of making up the days. Some opted for; some against. Tell me, how much learning do you think took place in the system that were still in school those last days of June that year?

By chuck

September 28, 2005 01:54 PM | Link to this

OOPs…take out the word “to” before documentation.

By SWC

September 28, 2005 01:57 PM | Link to this

RF - I’m totally with you on tracking. JEFF- If you had to go to work and find a place to put your child at the last minute, you might have a different opinion. Did you have to make those arrangements? Nope - unlikely because you’re a teacher. I am not opposed to having a few days off, but think it would have been better if they were given Thursday and Friday off so parents had time to make arrangements for their children. I do think that the parent who showed up on the steps of the capitol to complain that her child was losing precious classroom time was WAY over the top, and was probably politically motivated. I agree that lessons can be rearranged. CHUCK - I am not whining. My “little darling” does not have food fights. He gets as much time for lunch as you do. I do not treat teachers as lackeys. You are incredibly presumptuous in your comments - you presume to know all sorts of things that you cannot possibly know. In fact I KNOW all about the reasons given for early August start dates, about the “need” to have final exams before winter vacation, standardized testing schedules, about intercessions, about teachers “needing a break”, about “summer learning loss” (Elwood - sorry data does not support your theory). You name it, I’ve heard it. None of those arguments hold water with me for the simple fact that other states who perform really well manage perfectly fine with the same number of days in the school year (180) and still let their kids get the summer off and have a life outside of the classroom. Re the CRCT, we still have a month after the testing finishes. A waste of time. Why not move the tests to later in the year? I’m not asking for a longer summer vacation - I’m asking that it be shifted to how it used to be when it started in late August/Labor Day and ended in early June. Re ESOL students, and economically depressed areas - the world does not revolve entirely around these groups as much as some people would like it to. Those of us who pay the taxes deserve to have their needs met too. That’s why I suggest charter schools for parents who like year round schools. Re extra-curricular activities - everybody is not in Little League. Or football.

BB: People who think in terms of one person being “jealous” of another are usually incredibly catty and immature; that is how fourth graders talk - not mature adults. People who make armchair analyses of others (diagnosing my “anger”) are not only immature, but foolish and dangerous.

By Terri Crothers

September 28, 2005 02:02 PM | Link to this

We do not WHINE about having time off as you say. A teacher works every day of the year. We must attend school in the summer to keep up-to-date on curriculum changes, put our classrooms in order for incoming students. We are required to plan according to state mandates for education. We grade papers at home or in the classroom sometimes until late at night. We work in after-school mentor programs. All of this while dealing with insensitive parents and sometimes rude children. And by the way, we get paid for 182 days per year in our school district. We are NOT paid for the time we are out of school in the summer or for holidays/breaks. If a paycheck is received at that time it is because we are getting paid for work that was done long ago. And by the way, not all teachers have children that are school age. Some, like myself, have toddlers or infants and must provide daycare for them. Unlike a lot of parents out there, we don’t depend on our local schools to do that. We pay someone a fair and reasonable rate to do that.
Don’t ever talk about about how teachers are whiners or complainers unless you spend 182 days in their shoes, standing before a group of kids that are totally apathetic about education because that’s what they learned at home.

By old teacher

September 28, 2005 02:07 PM | Link to this

SWC- I think many teachers would agree that testing should be the last thing that we do in the year. That last month is a waste but they test early to get the results back before school is out. The teachers have nothing to do with this decision making.

I have taken a breathe and reread much of what you have to say. Many of the things that some parents complain about are not decisions that are made by teachers. These decisions are made by administrators or state level folks and they don’t ask us.

I too think it would have been better to have given more notice for the planned days and I applaude the school systems that stayed in session because they see that they have days off in the near future.

And, yes, so of the reactions to your comments have been childish and petty, but I think that you are equally responible because of the way you reacted.

By RF

September 28, 2005 02:10 PM | Link to this

Okay, children, let’s stop calling names or I’ll have to move your clothes pins to red and you’ll have to timeout on the rug in the corner. And then I’ll have to put a frowny-face in your agenda!! Lighten up folks, it’s just a debate—don’t take it all so personally. As teachers, we work in a demanding profession that has a terrible public image right now. Some misconceptions are being righted here, so maybe discussions like this will help. Let’s at least try to keep that in mind before we go the playground—I’ll not tolerate you throwing each other down in the wood chips!

By SWC

September 28, 2005 02:13 PM | Link to this

The difference between my comments and those of some (mostly teachers) is that I use facts. I do not presume how a parent or their child behaves without any evidence. I do not presume that others are “jealous”. I do not presume to know what form of transportation others use. I do not presume that others are not knowledgeable about the arguments pro and con year round schooling. I have provided FACTS. I have not complained ONCE about teachers in general. I have merely pointed out that teachers need to keep the needs of parents in mind too before they make snide remarks about “babysitting needs”. That’s it! So the whining is not coming from me - its coming from teachers. All YOU are doing is complaining about the parents, the students, SUVs, racism, and me. You name it, you’ve complained about it.

By chuck

September 28, 2005 02:18 PM | Link to this

SWC, apparently you misread my post…The State DOE says that they ARE NOT GOING TO CHANGE the test dates. As for the data on YRS, you are completely wrong. There have been a number of studies that have shown NO IMPROVEMENT, BUT, there have also been a number of studies that have shown REMARKABLE improvement across the board. There is no DEFINITIVE data on either side. My dissertation is on this topic and I have read virtually every article on YRS written in the past 30 years. I didn’t read just those taking a position AGAINST YRS. As for my own opinion, I haven’t decided one way or another as far as YRS go. I can see the benefits AND the detriments.

I’m interested to find out from you, the documented benefits of having a 10 week summer break as opposed to a 10 week summer break. You are right, the world doesn’t revolve around ESOL and poor students. THAT WASN’T THE POINT. The point is, there is CONSISTENT research showing that YRS benefits these students. While the data for other students is not conclusive, (some studies do suggest benefit while others do not), THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT YRS LOWER TEST SCORES FOR ANY STUDENTS.That is my point. Which kids do you think are having a bigger impact on the RATE of teaching and learning where your child is concerned, the ESOL and poor students or the middle class students? I can tell you for a fact, it is the former. Classes containing students who have to catch up are ALWAYS going to go slower than other classes.

Finally, I really want to know what the deal is with AUGUST. I don’t know of any study anywhere that says August is a worse month for going to school than any other month. Vacations in May or June or July couldn’t possibly be any better or worse than August. The summer break is still 10 weeks. WHAT POSSIBLE DIFFERENCE COULD IT MAKE?

By chuck

September 28, 2005 02:21 PM | Link to this

I’m interested to find out from you, the documented benefits of having a 10 week summer break as opposed to a 10 week summer break. OOPS again AS OPPOSED TO A 6 WEEK SUMMER BREAK.

By DB

September 28, 2005 02:32 PM | Link to this

SWC: In adhering to your comments about not judging parents, don’t judge all teachers in the same way. The few teachers here don’t represent all teachers.

By old teacher

September 28, 2005 02:35 PM | Link to this

And again, because he/she calls it a fact doesn’t make it a fact.

By DB

September 28, 2005 02:35 PM | Link to this

SWC: Another note, you may want to take agenda driven studies performed by “education specialists” with a grain of salt. For every study promoting one thing, there is another study suggesting the opposite. Validity is the key. And education experts just don’t realize that studies are almost worthless when almost no variables can be controlled.

By SWC

September 28, 2005 02:36 PM | Link to this

Re Why August and not June. How about the fact that in the rest of the Western Hemisphere August is vacation month. If you want to see people outside of the borders of Georgia then having June off does not help. Friends cannot visit because their children are in school. You cannot visit them for the same reason. Most of my son’s lifelong friends don’t even show up until the first week in August. There are things called traditions that used to matter in this country before the Sixties when many people became intent on tearing them down. Traditions are part of our history and our culture and I treasure them far more than I do spending too much time in a classroom.

Since as we both agree there are no benefits to year round schooling except possibly for ESOL kids, then WHY do it? How about immigration reform so we don’t have so many kids coming in who don’t speak English in the first place? Why make us give up ou summers? I don’t want a week in February! Its raining and cold and you can’t go to the pool, or do much of anything. My friends and family are not free to visit or vice versa. I cannot afford to take multiple vacations a year. I pay for one set of plane tickets - that is it. If we public school parents were so wealthy that we could hop in a plane and take a week off in February, or fly to Miami in May (because Destin is too cold) then we’d be in private school where I didn’t have to worry about ESOL kids every again!

Re why 10 weeks and not 6 weeks - 6 weeks is not long enough to do the multitude of things that my family wants to do over the summer, and kids need to be free of the restraints of school for longer than 6 weeks.

By Patti Ghezzi

September 28, 2005 02:40 PM | Link to this

Hey all, don’t make me shut down a thread two days in a row. No name-calling please. And PLEASE… NO profanity, not even pseudo profanity with some letters replaced with an *.

Thanks!

Patti The Blogmistress

By DB

September 28, 2005 02:43 PM | Link to this

Ok, so what were we trying to say here? I think it’s all been lost in Teachers vs. SWC. It’s an ironic microcosm of what happens each day to public school teachers.

By DB

September 28, 2005 02:44 PM | Link to this

SWC: Please don’t get me wrong, but my concern is with my students and not with their parents. They either support me or they don’t, and that’s not my problem.

By chuck

September 28, 2005 02:53 PM | Link to this

You really have confused the term FACTS with personal preference and opinion. You then tried the oldest blog trick in the book by mistating what I said and changing it to mean what you want it to mean. FIRST, the evidence is CONCLUSIVE concerning ESOL and math. It is inconclusive for other subjects and calendars. That does NOT mean that there are no educational benefits. In some schools using a YR calendar the evidence IS conclusive. Some studies have not been taken to show absolute benefits of YRS because the samples were too small or isolated or because there was a flaw in the method of choosing the sample or for some other reasons. That doesn’t mean that the studies are wrong, just that there is not enough evidence at this point to say definitively that YRS are better (or worse for that matter). There are also DOCUMENTABLE benefits beyond test scores. There is evidence suggesting that there is less teacher and student burnout. Discipline problems decrease. ESOL and math students do better. While the world does not revolve around these students, neither does it revolve around YOUR FAMILY. If it works better for many students what harm is there in doing it for all? (Other than of course YOUR personal preference.)As for your assertion about people not being able to visit…THAT MAY BE TRUE FOR MAY AND AUGUST, BUT IT WOULD NOT BE TRUE FOR JUNE AND JULY. WHY CAN’T THEY VISIT THEN? Should we base OUR educational system on the calendars of OTHER states? Your argument is full of holes.

By SWC

September 28, 2005 02:56 PM | Link to this

DB - ONE MORE TIME - My comments were in direct response to comments made by teachers about parents. I specifically addressed these specific comments directly to the teacher who made the comment. I did not make ONE general accusation or complaint about teachers. I responded to other issues with facts. For instance, the facts that I cited about “cooling degree days” are indisputable scientific facts and not open to interpretation.

I am fully aware of the subjective nature of most “expert studies”. That is precisely why I am for sticking with tradition and not for putting kids on some crazy on-again off-again school schedule jsut because some people (teachers?) have THEORIES about what MIGHT be better for SOME kids.

By RF

September 28, 2005 02:57 PM | Link to this

Well, once again an intelligent debate becomes an axe-grinding, mud-slinging personal attack. Parents and teachers obviously aren’t going to agree, and there is palpable tension between the two. Speaking of traditions, there was a tradition “once upon a time” when teachers could communicate and have time to spend with parents. Parents used to get home at decent hours before the great Atlanta commute began, so they had time to unwind and relax and talk to us. We live in a high stress society and it shows here. When did it get to be such a free-for-all punching session? When did we lose the idea of working together? We’ve developed such animosity that we all jump at a chance to throw a punch…

By Jeff Sexton

September 28, 2005 03:01 PM | Link to this

DB: Even you’re starting to miss my point. Its not about US v THEM. Its about what’s best for the students. Yes, today I’ve been talking mostly against SWC, but trust me, I talk just as venomously about teachers (more accurately, educators, which I see as two entirely different things) when its called for. I don’t exactly speak high praise of EDUC programs at colleges for the most part, and the only reason I hold back on Administration somewhat is because a) I’ve been burned by losing my job before and b)if anything, they may be clueless, but they have a far harder job than we do.

Again, my point: Its not about US v THEM, Parents V Teachers, Teachers v Admin, Admin V Parents, or any possible conflict scenario. Its about whats best for the student. Period. When we really that, we will see real reform and we will see our nation once again rise to heights we’ve never known.

By chris

September 28, 2005 03:03 PM | Link to this

Judging from the number of posts from parents complaining about having to juggle child care the last few days, why even have the education blog? It seems that most Georgians are only concerned with dumping their children off in government sponsored day care. Why worry about the quality of the education?

I teach in rural Georgia, students have never had to make up snow days in my county. If you don’t expect them to fulfill requirements (“mandatory” school year) how can you claim to care about true education?

By old teacher

September 28, 2005 03:07 PM | Link to this

Correct me if I am wrong, and I know you will, but isn’t our school year based on agriculture? We needed the kids home in the summer to work the fields. They got out again to bring in the crops in the fall. I don’t know about any of you, but I gave up milking cows and plowing fields about 30 years ago.

By DB

September 28, 2005 03:21 PM | Link to this

SWC: No problem. I just misinterpreted your tone, a common situation in blogs. Also, I just think that scheduling has very little to do with the big picture in education. I agree with your scientific facts. Hey, I’m a scientist. July and August are the most expensive, but at the same time, I think people here depend too much on air conditioning, so a lot can be said for simply turning up the thermostats. But as for students learning more? If students have the motivation, they’ll learn regardless of the schedule. From working in schools, I know schedules are based more on convenience than logic, as is most every other decision in schools. I’m talking more about the whole “studies say…. benefits students” etc. That’s where things get quite subjective. I could assume a lot of things about you, but I won’t judge you because I have no idea of your background. However, discipline, work ethic, and personal responsibility have gone down the tubes, and I think those are the real problems. After we solve that, then we can worry about things as trivial as summer vacation times. And then getting all bent out of shape will be worth it. I don’t like our wacked school year, but I’m extremely skeptical that any changes in when school takes place will make any real difference in learning.

I guess my point is that we’re all making a mountain out of a mole hill.

By DB

September 28, 2005 03:27 PM | Link to this

Jeff: I’m not sure where you’re coming from. I just saying that my concerns are my students, and that’s it. I think we all get worked up over nothing. It’s not US vs. THEM; in fact, that’s what I’m trying to extinguish. My prose may be misleading, but I think you may be misunderstanding my underlying point, which seems to be the same as yours.

By DB

September 28, 2005 03:30 PM | Link to this

This is turning into a cement canoe! Oh, no!

By DB

September 28, 2005 03:33 PM | Link to this

What do you guys think about the government using mass media to push a change in society to promote personal responsibility, respect, and personal responsibility. I think schools are failing because of the fact that the “norms” of society are changing for the worse. Mass media is the only way to get through to kids these days.

By DB

September 28, 2005 03:34 PM | Link to this

Replace one “personal responsibility” with “civic duty”.

By SWC

September 28, 2005 03:34 PM | Link to this

Chuck - How can you say that “I am completely wrong”? You yourself say that there are studies that show YRS is helpful and studies that show that it isn’t. In other words, the evidence is inconclusive! But, since it is in NO WAY proven to be better for anyone but “at risk” or ESOL kids, then why stick the rest of us with it?

And, no matter what the DOE website says about changing test dates - if they have to they will. Can you tell me where that info is on the DOE website? I’d like to see it.

By the way Chuck, you never did give me the daily schedule for the 4 day school week that you said you liked. I’m sure that you’ve seen studies that show that kids learn less when they don’t get breaks during the day, when the day is too long, when they don’t get exercise, et cetera. Not to mention the mood of teachers who are working longer hours squeezed into fewer days.

My argument about August verus June is not “full of holes”. Most people get August off, not June (or only part of June). Outside of The South, it is too cold and rainy in June. And as I have said before, it costs more money to operate the schools in August. That is a fact, not a theory. We can base our calendars on other states because they are successful - the states whose curriculum we are now emulating have traditional school calendars (with the exception of Japan which doesn’t count because their culture and our culture are completely different and they have a 240 day school year). The way the calendars work in Georgia right now, you’re lucky to cross county lines and be on the same schedule.

By lovestoteach

September 28, 2005 03:36 PM | Link to this

Mass media? Aren’t those the people who tried to convince us that only the people who lived inside the city limits of New Orleans were affected by the hurricane?

By Jeff Sexton

September 28, 2005 03:38 PM | Link to this

DB: Went back and re-read many of your comments, and you’re right, we’re on the same page. I apologize.

By lovestoteach

September 28, 2005 03:42 PM | Link to this

You don’t even have to cross county lines in Ga. If there is a city school system around, you can bet that they are on a different schedule too.

By SWC

September 28, 2005 03:46 PM | Link to this

To all individuals currently employed as teachers: Aren’t you working today, or do you teach night school? How do you manage to spend so much time on this blog?

By lovestoteach

September 28, 2005 03:47 PM | Link to this

School is over for me at 3:15.

By old teacher

September 28, 2005 03:50 PM | Link to this

I had an emergency appendectomy in the middle of September and I an still at home. How about you? Does your boss not care that you are emailing the ajc or are do you not work outside the home? See, I know that stay at home moms work very hard at home.

By Jeff Sexton

September 28, 2005 03:53 PM | Link to this

sick day. had a doc appt, couldn’t reschedule for the previous two days. (see, I really do understand what you parents go through!)

By swc

September 28, 2005 04:19 PM | Link to this

Old teacher - you’re up to your old tricks again. Don’t you think its a bit unfair of you to assume that I am either not working at work or not working at home, since you yourself are spending time writing comments?

I was just curious how so many teachers manage to sign into this blog -many whose names or initials I see often.

By the way, if you want an illustration of the difference between the public and private sector vis a vis sick days, my husband told his office weeks ago that he needs Friday off to take me to surgery (fairly minor but requires general anesthesia and I can’t drive myself home). His boss (who just stayed home for two days to be with his children while schools were closed) is giving him a hard time about it!

DB - school schedules are not considered to be a trivial issue by everyone, and many of us do believe that calendars impact our children’s education and also effect other opportunities that schools cannot provide. Legislation has been passed in state after state mandating traditional school calendars, and the numbers are growing despite organized (and financed) opposition from YRS advocates. There is a huge backlash against these schedules, and the topic was covered this summer in The NY Times, Wall Street Journal, MSNBC, among others.

By SWC

September 28, 2005 04:29 PM | Link to this

Old Teacher - sorry, I forgot to respond to your comment about the agricultural basis for the school year. That was not the only reason schools were closed in the summer. I went to school in NYC - there was no farming going on there either. Schools were closed because of diseases like polio that were more rampant during the summer, especially in crowded urban settings. They wanted childen and their mothers to get out of town, go to the seashore, that sort of thing. The fathers would visit on weekends, and take vacation (which was longer then) during the summer. Summer communitities (like the Hamptons) and camps developed as a result of these traditions. Many educators also believed that children needed to get away from the school environment - to experience the outside world, nature, travel - for their mental and physical well-being. So, traditions were established, and traditions they remain. It doesn’t matter any more why they were started - they are part of the fabric of our lives and should not be torn apart recklessly. How many traditions do we observe with reverence without knowing when, where, or why they started?

By I_Teach

September 28, 2005 04:51 PM | Link to this

Guess what? The respective boards of ed.make the TEACHERS make up the days. They feel we’re getting paid for 190 days. I have news for ya: I work way over 190 days—! Each snow day our district is closed, the teachers make up after the close of school during ‘post planning.’

Did my students miss valuable instruction. YES. Anyone who thinks that missing 2 days (esp. consecutively) is nothing, hasn’t spent much time in an elementary setting. There’s NO way I can really make up that time!

And to think…I get to make it up come June, by sitting in more meetings….hmmm….

By luvs2teach

September 28, 2005 04:59 PM | Link to this

School’s out…

SWC - I feel that it is very one-sided of you to assume that we don’t have issues similar to the one your husband had with his boss - it depends on the school and the administrator, as it would depend on the individual boss in the “real working world” - I know; I’ve been there in both worlds.

I’ve had administrators and bosses who would give you a hard time or ask you to reschedule to a more convenient time for the sake of the school or company. I recently had to reschedule a dentist’s appointment because of ITBS testing. We have critical days, just like the corporate world, where we can’t be out without a doctor’s note. We have to plan Monday and Friday absences in advance, and they ask that we not use those days for appointments.

I know it’s hard to tell tone from a blog, but your comments come across as very angry and self-righteous - since it’s hard to tell, I may be wrong. Spend some time in a classroom. Offer to sub at your child’s school. Talk to friends and family members who are teachers.

I have a problem when people comment that what teachers share on this blog is “whining” - usually we’re answering a question and talking about our experience. If this were a blog about waiting tables, you would have customer and waitstaff comments that are literally from both sides of the table - it wouldn’t be much different - there are bad tippers; there are lousy parents - there are surly waiters; there are know-it-all teachers.

As a science teacher, I have to take issue with your use of the word “theory” - in science, a theory is only surpassed by a law - which very nearly makes it fact (gravity is a theory, for example). It is proven to be true through repeated testing, and nothing has come forward yet to dispute it.

The way you used it is actually more like a scientist uses the term “inference” or “hypothesis.”

It’s the common misconception that got Cobb County in all that trouble with the stickers.

Oh, yeah - the two days? We won’t miss them if we get rid of two pep rallies or some other waste of instructional time!

By nick

September 28, 2005 05:05 PM | Link to this

First of all, I can’t believe that I am reading a blog posted like adults, some of you (on both sides of the issue) sound like the elementary school children we all want to make things the best for. Secondly, for anyone who claims that teachers have it easy, I am calling all of you out right now. Go substitute for two weeks, go ahead and then come back to this blog, oh and make sure that any meetings or extra work that needs to be done outside of the 8 hour day is done too.
I can also honestly say that while there are a few parents that openly view school as a babysitting service, they are few and far between. Most of my parents are very supportive and very involved, regardless if things are going good or bad in my classroom.

By Ms. P (Teacher)

September 28, 2005 05:07 PM | Link to this

I really don’t understand why people are making such a big deal about students missing two days of school. People always find the negative in things. If we were hit by a storm and it affected many areas, normally we would not find out if school is cancelled until the next morning. This leaves parents no time for planning. We were given the weekend to handle babysitting issues. GET OVER IT!!! Valuable time was missed but its really not that big of a deal. Change is inevitable and there’s nothing we can do about it.

By sm

September 28, 2005 05:49 PM | Link to this

I am a teacher of 5 years and have recently moved to Alabama… where the same “stuff” in education happens. I like to read the AJC to keep up with Atlanta (where I’m from), and I love reading about education because I taught in Georgia for 4 years, and I have many friends (and my parents) who teach. I’m new to the “blog world,” but I love it. I look forward every day to reading this when my school day is over, which is an hour behind Georgia… so I get all the good stuff. Sometimes I get mad at comments made, and sometimes I get amused, but I’ve truly enjoyed reading everyone’s comments. I just wanted to bring a more light-hearted post into the mix of all this banter. Thanks!

By old teacher

September 29, 2005 08:15 AM | Link to this

SWC - I tried to be nice in my last comment but you had to turn it around didn’t you. You assumed that the teachers were responding during school and not doing their jobs. I complimented you on being a hard working mom. I noticed that you didn’t answer my question. Also, NYC did not start out as a large city. There were plenty of farms around. And I didn’t say that farming was the only reason, you just assumed that is what I meant. I am glad that I am going back to work next week. Then I will only have time to respond at the end of the day.

By Karen Armsby

September 29, 2005 08:28 AM | Link to this

To Old teacher and others, I have been participating in this blog since last spring, and have come to the conclusion that there are bloggers out there just waiting to get your goat, start a fight or stir the pot. And they do it just see our reactions, not to contribute anything of value. My advice is to treat them like you would a two year old throwing a tantrum, and just walk away, i.e. after you have explained or defended your comment once, don’t engage them again, because it just fuels their foolishness.

By VB

September 29, 2005 08:30 AM | Link to this

Old Teacher, You have made some very important points. I think we are going to take a close look at what we are doing in public education in GA and why we are doing it. Change must come, it is inevitable. We are a vastly different society today than we were when much of what we currently do was initiated. Try to understand that there will always bethe SWC’s of the world. Nevertheless, we should press forward based on what we know to be right and mutually beneficial for all. Innovative changes with the school calendar, schedule, physical design, curriculum, student retention, etc., are a must, and will happen.

By SWc

September 29, 2005 10:09 AM | Link to this

Old Teacher - I apologize if I misinterpreted your comment about “stay at home moms working hard”- I took it to be a sarcastic comment.

By RF

September 29, 2005 10:17 AM | Link to this

One important thing I see happening here is that we’re all realizing how stressful life is, no matter which side of an issue you’re on. So far, we’re actually being nicer today which is good. I think we need to realize that parents are at least as stressed as we teachers are, and we have to take the time to vent our feelings and then communicate. We talk about needing change—guess what? We’re the forces together to make that happen. We can begin the process by taking our energy and ideas from here and going to our respective boards and demanding those changes. If we keep at it long enough, they’ll listen, or we just vote them out and try again.

By Bob

September 29, 2005 10:53 AM | Link to this

All of us wish the school year could begin after Labor Day, end by Memorial Day and our kids would score highest in the world. But that’s not the reality.

The fact is that our kids fall behind, according the the International Math and Science Study, by the time they reach middle school. Could it be that it is because we are the only industrialized nation in the world with such a short school year. Most of Europe and the Far East go to school 200 days a year, or more.

In Japan for example, students have a longer school day, school week and school year.

Perhaps it is time for us to get over the notion of June, July and August being off-limits for school…

By DB

September 29, 2005 11:52 AM | Link to this

Yes, Bob, but we have the some of the most productive universities in the world, and they have even shorter schedules. We’re falling behind because of the lack of rigor and expectations, not because of schedules. Also, there are a lot of variables that cannot be ignored. Many things differ besides number of days, and that probably has little or nothing to do with actual results.

By DB

September 29, 2005 11:57 AM | Link to this

Just for the record, I was testing yesterday! I keep students separated and have multiple test versions. And keep in mind most of us teachers are doing about 6 different things at once while we contribute.

So what were you doing SWC? I just find it ironic that someone that posts more than all of us asks us such questions. However, don’t answer because it’s none of my business.

By DB

September 29, 2005 11:59 AM | Link to this

Bob: I think it has more to do with respect for education, maturity, and culture more than anything. I’m sure there are countries that are better in math and science and attend the same or fewer number of days per year.

By TruthHurts

September 29, 2005 12:14 PM | Link to this

Bob is right; there is no substitute for “time on task”

By R.

September 29, 2005 12:32 PM | Link to this

Judging by some of the spelling, punctuation, and grammatical errors in some of these posts, I’d say that parents shouldn’t be demanding a three month summer and that 180 days is not enough schooling to begin with.

By DB

September 29, 2005 01:18 PM | Link to this

R.-No, the parents should be pushing their kids to pay more attention and put forth more effort in school, not to mention watch less TV. The number of days of school isn’t going to make that much difference. It’s all about effectiveness.

By HSTeach

September 29, 2005 01:29 PM | Link to this

I have to agree w/ DB here…we have become a culture of “what have you done for me lately” even in education. The parents “expect” their kids to get 100’s on everything, even if they don’t deserve it…we are hearing it at the college level as well, as parents call to complain about how their son/daughter’s grades are not “correct” b/c they are “A” students.
The fact of the matter is, the onus is on teachers, not the kids, and I don’t see it turning around anytime soon, thanks to NCLB. Most productive universities - is this because we have an incredible amount of foreign (European/Asian/Middle Eastern/African) professors and researchers working at these Universities? The comment I have heard of late from certain professors at a nearby University is that the students in Georgia are NOT being prepared for a college education and they are vastly behind those out of state students sitting in the same classes….does this have anything to do with the calendar….probably not…

By R.

September 29, 2005 01:39 PM | Link to this

DB- I totally agree with you. Parents don’t assume enough responsibility in their kids’ education. My comment was aimed more at some of the ironic posts regarding longer summers and less school days from people that can’t spell or correctly put a sentence together without spell-check.

By VB

September 29, 2005 01:39 PM | Link to this

DB and HSTeach, I agree with you both. This “thing” has really gotten out of hand. What do you guys think about video cameras in the classroom? Also, can we poll just how many of you would like to change the calendar to some type of year-round system? This blog could go on for days, and it probably should. Folks, we need answers and RF nailed it. It really is on us.

By Nikole

September 29, 2005 01:43 PM | Link to this

RF- Please see my last comment, on September 28, 2005 at 12:53 PM. Clearly, you are coming from a secondary education standpoint. DB- There is no such thing as “improper” tracking. Enrichement and intervention or special education programs are not the issue. Placing small, capable children on the path to getting there without giving them the tools to succeed on grade level is “tracking”. SWC- Can you PLEASE refer me to “facts” on how beneficial a traditional summer is and the differences in June or August? Peace and love to all

By old teacher

September 29, 2005 01:45 PM | Link to this

I would love to have year round school and a longer school year. I don’t have any answers as to how or when and it wouldn’t matter if I did. I am a teacher, not an administrator so my input means nothing to them. And since I am an old teacher, I don’t have to worry about child care. That last sentence was just in case someone decided to attack me about that.

By HSTeach

September 29, 2005 02:05 PM | Link to this

I’m concerned that districts and states are willing to spend millions to “test” out these different calendars, intersessions, etc. but aren’t willing to try what has been proven to work: smaller class sizes. No one can tell me that cutting the # of students in a math, english, or science class won’t increase scores in these areas….just think about it: conducting a lab w/ 15 kids instead of 30, or having enough time to get to each student every day in every class to make sure each one is “caught up.” Year round apathy is all we’ll get w/ year round school.

By old teacher

September 29, 2005 02:15 PM | Link to this

Oh, yes, HSTeach, lower class size would be great.

By RF

September 29, 2005 02:26 PM | Link to this

Nikole—do me this favor. Give me the name of an elementary school that is tracking children, and I’ll let the state know. Ability level pull-out groups, THAT CHANGE OVER TIME, is not tracking. Kids move from group to group as their abilities change. The idea of pull-out ability level grouping isn’t tracking from what I know of it. I really don’t think I know of a school in Georgia that is tracking kids in elementary school. Let me know if you know of one—I’d like to know.

By Ernest

September 29, 2005 02:31 PM | Link to this

HSTeach, while the lower class size would be great, must consider the ‘unintended consequences’. I question whether there are enough ‘qualified’ teachers available to meet that demand. Many times, it may come down to having a highly qualified teacher with 30 students versus that same teacher with 15 and a ‘not so qualified’ teacher with 15. Who wins/loses in this either scenario?

By Jeff Burns

September 29, 2005 02:32 PM | Link to this

I would love to miss only 2 instructional days out of the year. I’ve counted. With testing, preparing for tests, mandatory staff development meetings, field trips, assemblies, and the like, my juniors miss 20 to 30 days of instruction. And with AP students, we only have until the first week of May to get that much in.

By SWC

September 29, 2005 04:36 PM | Link to this

Nikole - One more time - It costs more to operate schools in August. “Cooling degree days” for August average 438, but for june they average 316 (this is for the past 5 years). A cooling degree day defines how much energy is required to cool a room. The more energy, the more money spent. We spend MILLIONS a year in wasted utility expenses because of starting school in August. Those millions could go to books, teachers, classrooms, curriculum, et cetera. We also lose hundreds of millions in lost tourism dollars. That is money that could trickle down to improve education resources.

By luvs2teach

September 29, 2005 04:59 PM | Link to this

I can’t speak for everyschool, but the majority of schools in my area ARE open in the summer ANYWAY. They are open for summer school (both students and staff development); registration of new students (there are year round employees in every district, and they’re not just at the central office), as well as deep cleaning and routine maintenance. Both schools I have worked at have been open the entire summer, whether students were there or not, as well as all the elementary, middle and high schools my kids attended.

As far as tourism goes, about the only place I can see that loses money would be White Water (and other water parks & water recreation areas). IMHO, most outdoor places are miserable in August because it is too hot! Unless I’m at the pool (which I’m not between the hours of 11:00 and 4:00 because of UV radiation), then I’m inside in the air conditioning. I like taking my family vacation the last wekk of June or the first week of July - of course, that’s just me.

While the quality of a teacher is important, for low-achieving students, class size is important, too. Low level students often get lost in a class of 30, no matter how good the teacher. Fifteen is probably too small - I’d be happy with classes of 20 to 24.

By DB

September 30, 2005 08:06 AM | Link to this

SWC-I don’t disagree with the fact that avoiding August will save money for most schools, but to assume the money saved would create more funding to improve education is quite naive. First of all, you’d have to assure that the money is actually spent on such programs and not used for other purposes as school districts are so efficient at doing. Secondly, you have to assume that money actually improves the education of students, when in reality that’s usually not the case.

For years and years, politicians have always thought the answer to every problem in education is to throw more money at it. If throwing more money at public education always solves problems and increases learning, we’d have the smartest kids in the world, and we don’t. What we have is a wasteful, ineffective system. As long as there’s still such a high level of apathy and disrespect, any amount of excess funding will be futile.

In fact, I would take it to the point that sometimes increased funding actually inhibits learning.

By Nikole

September 30, 2005 11:02 AM | Link to this

RF- I do not know of any school that is tracking students. My comments stem from the previous comments that touted tracking as the solution to education’s ills and I vehemently disagreed with that suggestion. SWC- Thank you for the clarification on August/June.
Be Blessed.

By RF

September 30, 2005 11:19 AM | Link to this

Nikole- as a parent of an accelerated child who has worked hard to get where he is, I don’t think it’s fair for him to be forced into classes with kids who either can’t or won’t learn on grade level, thus forcing my child to sit and wait or find something to do on his own. His teachers, with 30 or more to a class, can’t individually challenge him and he is left bored and frustrated. If tracking in some form isn’t the answer, what do you think would be a good solution to his situation? I’m at a loss as to what to tell him or try to do to help.

By Nikole

September 30, 2005 11:43 AM | Link to this

RF- I think that enrichment programs or accelerated programs for your child would be good. Ask that he be tested for those programs. You can also let his teacher know that he is not being challenged and he/she can be cognizant of that while teaching and they may have suggestions for what you can do to help them to keep him interested in school. I am also a proponent for class size reduction programs. Last year I taught a second grade class of no more than 15 students at a time. At one point I had 10 and it was exhausting still, because I had the opportunity to work one on one with students and develop individualized instruction and use some constructivist teaching techniques. Placing kids in homogeneous groups at times is necessary, I have done it in my own classroom at times, but that is not tracking. Please, please read JJIrvine in order to get a clear understanding of what it is that I am against instead of posting comments that are directed at me that I completely agree with you about. Peace and love

By RF

September 30, 2005 11:54 AM | Link to this

Nikole—please don’t think I’m arguing. I’m actually learning from the counterpoints we’re making here. I’ve checked on accelerated programs, and his school has done away with college prep and tech prep distinctions in most subject areas. The only upper-level classes offered are Advanced Placement, and he isn’t quite that smart, bless his heart. I have a 7 yr.old as well who does have ability level groups in his class, which is great. Schools seem to be doing away with that idea in high school and I don’t think that’s right. I agree with you that tracking like they have in Japan seems severe, or any tracking based solely on a test score. As an elementary teacher, can you think of any reason why high schools don’t have ability level groupings as much anymore?

By Nikole

October 3, 2005 11:44 AM | Link to this

I do not know the reasons for high schools not offering a variety of classes. I graduated from Lakeside in 2000 and I took general classes, advanced classes and AP classes. I was placed depending upon my ability level in different subjects. I would like to see that in all high schools.