Get Schooled

By Harry

September 26, 2005 08:00 AM | Link to this

Competition is good.

By Zekemire

September 26, 2005 08:10 AM | Link to this

It is only “fair”, a word that liberals, socialists and Democrats use with disgrace, that taxpayers who have children of school age have the “right” to send those children to the best school available to insure the success of those children! If that is a private or a churh run school, then they should be able to use the monies available from taxes or other funding sources to pay for that education! It is Marxist, socialist and communist to force taxes down the throat of American citizens and then tell them that is only for the “public” education of everyone! Everyone is not the same, and, to try to make everyone the same with a reduced quality of education, not challenging the bright and gifted student because someone may have their feelings hurt, is criminal!!!

By lynn

September 26, 2005 08:13 AM | Link to this

Vouchers would further doom public schools by leaving only the kids who do not have parents advocating on their behalf. However, I am beginning to think that those kids are doomed regardless. Until we fundamentally change how we deliver educational services to at risk kids, by extending both the school day and the school year, these children don’t stand a chance. Optional, public preschool for needy three year olds is also probably necessasry.

National studies of public charter schools (which don’t normally include Georgia’s schools, because we don’t have enough) give us a view into vouchers because these schools offer choice. Most studeis show that these schools are not showing much in the way of academic improvement but the parents are happier. In most cases, these schools are grossly underfunded, so they can’t address all the needs of their students, many of whom are poor and minority.

The City of Athens and the City of Gainesville school systems both offer elementary school choice to their families. It would be interesting to know how this program is working. (As an aside, Gainsville City has really impressive test scores — but the programs used to raise scores are implemented in every school.) Do the bureacrats have to track down parents to get them to make a choice? Do they have to spend a lot of time and effort helping parents make choices? Or has it just become part of the culture of the community?

At our school, mobility is an issue for a part of the population. These people jump from place to place, probably because they are poor (occassionaly because they are just unstable). Vouchers wouldn’t help them — because they have to have transportation to get their kids to school — they need bussing.

By T.R.

September 26, 2005 08:15 AM | Link to this

I am always baffled by the lack of support for alternative choices like private and home schooling in a region where OVERCROWDING is the #1 issue. You would think they would be happy to lower enrollment!

That said - I personally consdier public schools an unacceptable choice, and have chosen homeschooling because I cannot afford private school. While homeschooling is a good choice for my family, things could always change.

It would be a huge bonus to be able to use my tax dollars toward a private school education.

By lynn

September 26, 2005 08:22 AM | Link to this

I also want to add, that in this case, I support Spellings initiative, because in Metro Atlanta most of our public schools are already pretty crowded.

My children’s elementary school, which already has two grade levels in trailers, has grown by nearly 5% because of the Katrina evacuees.

By Lynn

September 26, 2005 08:28 AM | Link to this

Schools are a necessary part of our society. If a school is broken, fix it! The loss of neighborhood schools is one of the contributing problems to education and the sorry attitude toward schools in general by too many students. No vouchers. Fix what is broken. What’s next? Paying rent for people to live in a less crowded area of town because they don’t like where they are? No!

By Don

September 26, 2005 08:50 AM | Link to this

Are the vouchers just for the children displaced by hurricanes Katrina and Rita? 7500$ is just a supplement. (it will never cover the cost of a full private school education). Will those parents and children eligible take advantage? (probably only those that were already attending private schools). What is the capacity of private schools? Will there be normal entrance requirements? Will there be animosity from parents and students on regular tuition? Will these schools take the money and run? (possibly dumbing themselves down) Will these students place an unfair burden on private schools and administrations subsequently reducing the quality of education? I think your left with more questions than answers and a good gesture.

By Harry

September 26, 2005 09:04 AM | Link to this

“Schools are a necessary part of our society.”

Sure but where is it written that government spending be limited to non-competitive public schools? Competition tends to drive out mediocrity.

By Ernest

September 26, 2005 10:00 AM | Link to this

Patti:

You may want to provide a link to Reg Weaver’s comments for a counterpoint to Spelling’s decision.

IMO, this is a test case, with the hopes the feds can collect enough measurable and favorable data to present to the American public. I believe it’s just a matter of time before there is a national referendum on this.

I’m concerned about the impact the influx of evacuee children will have on our public school systems. I spoke to the counselor for a local HS that has received over 50 children thus far. They were already overcrowded. I asked if they received additional teachers to help with the new students and the answer was no. The counselor also indicated they were having problems with lunch periods because it is adding more to an already crowded situation. They suggested schools may need to add resource officers in cases where the school capacity exceeds a certain threshold.

By MrLiberty

September 26, 2005 10:09 AM | Link to this

My gut tells me that anything that can get a kid out of the government school system is a good thing. My head however tells me that vouchers are absolutely the wrong way to go.

The biggest problem with the government schools is that they are run by the government. The bureaucracy, the unions, the regulations, the paperwork, the regulations, the regulations, the regulations….When most of any schools administrative staff is there just to comply with federal mandates, it is no wonder real education cannot happen.

In addition to parents that care and place a real value on education, private schools have the advantage of being free of most of the regulations that would otherwise stifle creativity and innovation. With vouchers will come regulations. Plain and simple.

When vouchers were proposed in California, the opposition worked to scare people with talk of witch schools and the like. They called for regulation after regulation to make sure “their” money was being properly spent (as if the government was delivering a quality education for “their” money).

Vouchers for private or homeschool would only destroy the last vestiges of good education left in this country.

Food stamps work because the government doesn’t run the food production and distribution apparatus. Vouchers however would be doomed to failure if nothing else, because government has a vested interest in seeing that they fail so that there will no longer be an alternative for parents that care about their kids’ educations.

By Marney

September 26, 2005 10:09 AM | Link to this

“Public” education did not always exist in this country. Education used to be a patchwork of private tutors hired by the rich and “poor schools”, which were generally funded and run by churches to give basic training to poor and emmigrant children to suit them for future work in the factories.

The “common school” political movement made the argument that a strong democracy required that our schools be good enough to be commonly attended by all members of society. These schools would be commonly supported and controled, and teach those things that the community felt all the kids should know to be productive adults and good citizens. We have kept the “publicly funded” and forgotten the “good enough to be commonly attended”.

Unfortunatly, we insist on making school assignments based solely on proximity to the school building. Since we have never had common communities in our urban areas, we cannot have common schools. In effect, we continue to have “poorhouse schools” that the affluent will not attend and the poor cannot escape. We just call them “title 1” schools today.

By Nick

September 26, 2005 10:38 AM | Link to this

I am really opposed to vouchers being used to fund an education at a private school. What we need to do is instead of adding to the problem by taking more money and other methods of support out of our public schools, we need to try to improve the public schools.

On the other hand, I don’t know how I would feel if my kids were in private school, with me paying thousands of dollars for them to go there while another kid goes for free.

I just dont think that giving up on something that is necessary for all people is a smart way to move forward.

By TJ5

September 26, 2005 10:43 AM | Link to this

If private schools are considered to be so elite, why is it that private school teachers do not have to be “highly qualified” like thier public school counterparts? I do think that parents (and students) should have the right to choose a school of their choice, but I do not think that private schools are necessarily the way to go.

By Ken

September 26, 2005 10:46 AM | Link to this

This is always a touchy subject. Personally I don’t favor school vouchers, though not necessarily for the reasons often voiced. The common argument is “what I do with my tax money is my business� and to that I say “hear hear!� However what is often not voiced in these voucher discussions is how little of your tax money actually goes to education. Especially federal dollars, which are limited at best. Shave a couple of percent off of the defense budget (which could be done just by closing loopholes in cost overruns) and you could fund public education in this country. That’s not sexy, and it might offend the “you can’t just throw money at a problem� crowd, but it would work. The problem isn’t public schools being over-regulated (and if they are fix that in the government, don’t just roll over and show your stomach) but that they are under-funded. Overcrowding, low teacher pay and a lack of school supplies hamstrings the system more than any list of do’s and don’ts. Public schools allow our children to mingle with other ethnic and socio-economic groups in ways that private schools never will. These life lessons will serve them well as they move into an ethnically and economically diverse society as adults. No voucher will ever be enough to get a poor family into a private school, or the single parent household whose sole parent isn’t free to take a child to school and retrieve them each day because they need to work full time to pay the bills. Private schools are a nice, isolated, iconoclastic community for those who can afford them. And vouchers might allow a few more families to access private schooling for their families. For these families I can understand where they might be eager to see this program move forward. I can’t fail to see how this doesn’t further trap the children of the poor into a circle of poverty and defeat as their limited educational opportunities dwindle even further. Ultimately we have to ask ourselves, as a society, do we abandon the children of the poor simply because their families haven’t “achieved� as much as the “rest of us�? Or will we look beyond our own living rooms and decide to do the thing that can help the most American children have a fair chance to live up to their potential? Because if we choose the former, then vouchers are a nice first step, and if we choose the latter we much not divert our precious resources from the many to the few.

By RF

September 26, 2005 10:47 AM | Link to this

The fundamental problem with vouchers is this: federal money given to support whatever school comes with strings attached. Suddenly, there will be increased federal guidelines for how that money is used, what is taught, etc. To me, this is yet another attempt, like NCLB

By RF

September 26, 2005 10:50 AM | Link to this

The fundamental problem with vouchers is this: federal money given to support whatever school comes with strings attached. Suddenly, there will be increased federal guidelines for how that money is used, what is taught, etc. To me, this is yet another attempt, like NCLB to increase federal control over local and state matters. This program is a test case that will likely input how and if federal vouchers are used. If you can afford tos send your kids to private school—great!! If not, get in and do what you can to help your local school and let’s do what we used to do- WORK TOGETHER AS A COMMUNITY TO IMPROVE OUR SCHOOLS!! Is that asking too much of us? I simply don’t think that vouchers will make schools better. It will only increase the gap between those who can and those who can’t, create more “bad schools” and increase an already alarming trend towards resegregation of our society on basis of race. This “gesture” is only one way of once again putting more federal control into the education system.

By Ernest

September 26, 2005 10:51 AM | Link to this

Also looking ahead, the 9/23 edition of the Atlanta Business Chronicle indicated that many business (86% of those surveyed) are in favor of using a 3% sales tax to replace local property taxes. A move like this could also potentially give more weight to the voucher advocates. FWIW, some are hopeful of having a question about this issue on the ballot in 11/2006.

By ADL

September 26, 2005 10:52 AM | Link to this

It makes sense to give the taxpayer a choice (for once) on how their money is spent.

Are most public schools systems prepared to monitor homeschooling?

By Tony

September 26, 2005 10:55 AM | Link to this

Vouchers are proposed as a way to improve public schools by introducing competition. This is supposed to spur the supposedly failing public schools into action to improve “or else”. This appears to be an attactive offer for parents who want to provide the best for their children.

Currently, parents are able to compare test scores and demographics of all public schools in Georgia. However, there is no reporting requirement for private schools, and there is no intention to have private schools report their test results. In fact, many private schools do not have testing programs.

How then are parents supposed to make the best choice for their children without knowing the academic achievement results for private schools? While it sounds like a good thing to allow parents access to “their” tax money to send their children to a school of their choice, the parent may not have good information to make an informed decision.

The reasons for what is perceived to be poor performance of public schools probably has more to do with parents’ value of learning and how that value is instilled in their children. Vouchers will not change that.

By JW

September 26, 2005 11:11 AM | Link to this

Anyone who does not believe this is an attempt to slowly implement a voucher system is misguided. It took me only seconds to complete an internet search on Margaret Spellings to find out that her husband is an attorney & lobbyist pushing for a school voucher system.

It certainly lends credibility to those who have claimed all along that the “No Child Left Behind” law’s ultimate goal was to label all schools as failures and implement a voucher system in the United States. Ms. Spellings was a primary author of the law - imagine that! You might be wondering about Ms. Spellings qualifications to be Secretary of the Dept. of Education. Here goes - she has a bachelor’s degree in political science, she was a political director and senior advisor to Governor Bush, and a “Domestic Policy Advisor” to President Bush. Remind anyone of the unqualified FEMA Director fiasco?

Believe what you will about vouchers, but don’t think for a moment that the crew in Washington won’t use a natural disaster to implement new policy.

By Jake

September 26, 2005 11:27 AM | Link to this

This is fine for one-time emergency relief as the incereases in the federal deficit for these vouchers is immaterial relative to the cost of Iraq, the rest of the hurricane relief program, or the tax cuts of 2003 for that matter. But on a regular, ongoing basis where will the money for vouchers come from? It seems like it would have to be at the expense of the public schools. While it would certainly make private education affordable for many more, what would it do for the dropout rate, or the racial gap in achievement?

By Harry

September 26, 2005 11:38 AM | Link to this

I wonder how many of you folks are schoolteachers?

By Harry

September 26, 2005 11:45 AM | Link to this

I spent the morning homeschooling my kids. Judging from what they’re not learning in the public school, the system is broken. In a year or so we hope to be financially able to put them in a private school - without vouchers.

But here’s the point: In my school district the good students are bailing out of the system. The current situation is a drag on the economy and our competitiveness as a nation - it’s clear we’re losing it. Our kids simply can’t compete on the world market. Play Pollyanna if you wish and try to protect your union, but you need to understand you’re trying to save the Titanic.

By DB

September 26, 2005 12:05 PM | Link to this

I say it’s either vouchers or get busy putting dicipline in public schools and making them more competitive. It’s ironic how I pay taxes, and a lot of that money is wasted on kids that could care less about being educated(and never will care)and wasteful administrators/bureaucracy. And then I pay tuition to private school(tax money is not going toward my own kids), and it doesn’t get wasted. If the $7500 per student sent on public school was sent to a private school instead, you can bet your money wouldn’t be wasted in most cases. And maybe the cost of private schools would come down because they’d all the sudden become much more popular! Then it wouldn’t only be rich kids that go to private school. However, we could get the same results by simply kicking kids out of public school that waste our money. Maybe vouchers would reinstall competition and drive away mediocrity, or at least give schools real motivation to improve conditions. However, the real problem lies in education laws that handcuff teachers from teaching and disciplining. Our system was pretty good back in the old days, and there’s no reason those days can’t return. It’s just a matter of tightening the reigns.

How nice that would be? Maybe vouchers would actually improve things a lot. You can quote many studies either way, and the truth is that educators are the last people you want conducting “studies” in situations where hardly any of the variables can be controlled and they come up with conclusions to support their agendas. Let me tell you as a scientist, most studies pumped out from “Educators” are worthless. It’s a sea of studies that promote no real change. Our public education has been in decline for years, and they try every new method as they come out from these studies and ignore the real problems. Public education, in most cases, has become nothing more than daycare and entertainment. And if you look at the other blog about energy conservation, you’ll understand.

Conclusion: Try vouchers and see what happens. That’s the only real way to see if things will improve. We definitely couldn’t make things worse.

By DB

September 26, 2005 12:12 PM | Link to this

Jake: It would probably do absolutely nothing to the dropout rate or racial gap. In fact, it may improve things. Private schools have diversity, too! Those that don’t care will not change regardless of the system you put in place. But those that do value education would benefit as compared to now where those that do care are getting the public shaft! Just as much as we’re ignoring the bad students we’re also ignoring the good students leaving everyone to strive for nothing but mediocrity. And it’s catching up to us! I’m sorry, but I feel bad for the kids(poor and rich) that don’t get challenged because of terrible schools. I feel bad for kids that don’t care only because they have morons for parents, and we can’t really change that. The best you can do for ALL kids if give them a challenge, and we’re simply not doing that.

By swc

September 26, 2005 12:40 PM | Link to this

The concept of vouchers are most popular in poor minority communities where the schools are an unmitigated disaster. Vouchers are supported because it is the only way out for these kids. This is not “abandoning the poor” - the poor are demanding the vouchers! Transportation is a problem, but some of that can be worked out voluntarily through car-pooling. At least give them a choice!

I do not see a mass exodus of “elite” students from public to private schools occurring. I think that there is a lot of unnecessary hysteria about vouchers, and like T.R., I am continually puzzled as to why there are so many objections to choice. One obvious benefit will be smaller class sizes without raising taxes.

As parent, even if given the choice, I would not take my child out of a school simply because the school didn’t technically make “Adequate Yearly Progress”. I would look to see where the school stood with testing results - I could not care less about attendance statistics, or about one subgroup out of 57 not “making adequate progress” and therefore failing the entire school (or county). Many superb public schools are “failing” because of these bureaucratically designed subgroups.

Lynn’s remarks about year round schooling and a longer school day are off-topic, but I cannot let it pass with out comment. Lynn, there is no way that my 11 year old son is going to spend one more SECOND in his school then he does now. He is in a school that some genius designed with no windows, no natural light. He gets no recess, no breaks, very little time to “socialize”. He leaves the house at 7:15 and gets home at 4:30 in the afternoon. He gets enough academic teaching (much mis-directed but that is another subject). He is a kid. He gets one chance at childhood. He needs exercise and fresh air and life experiences outside of the classroom. He needs a full summer vacation. Vouchers are a much better solution for “at risk” kids than forcing the rest of us to be virtual prisoners of the state.

Schools such as in Washington D.C. receive up to $10,000 a year in tax dollars, and the worst schools get the most money with no results (up until recently when NCLB was instituted). Throwing unaccountable dollars at the schools is not the answer any more than welfare was the answer to solving poverty. There are things wrong with NCLB, but at least there is some kind of accountability - something that was completely lacking before with tragic results for the very “at risk” kids we are supposed to be helping.

By Nikole

September 26, 2005 01:06 PM | Link to this

Vouchers will leave poor students behind. Money will leave their already failing schools and go to private schools. They will not have the transportation needed to go to these schools. (Didn’t we just cover this in talking about Katrina)

By DB

September 26, 2005 01:18 PM | Link to this

I agree with swc, especially about continually throwing money at schools and seeing no progress, and another HUGE point that a failing school doesn’t always mean it’s bad. It may simply mean that particular school holds to expectations when others don’t in similar areas, or that the demographics are the problem but there are kids taking high level classes. Whenever you see jumps in test scores, etc., the likelyhood is that numbers are being changed or “lost” because administrators can’t have failure. NCLB should be more like NSLH(No School Left Honest). If we had vouchers, maybe those schools would become EXCELLENT schools because people that care about education and expectations would send their kids there. You must research schools before you judge them by numbers.

Lynn: Making kids spend more time in school is crazy! Those kids hate school, and they’ll only hate it more. Let kids be kids, and let them figure out the difference between work and play. If they don’t want to go to school(High School), let them work and get started on their tough life ahead. And then maybe they’ll come back in the a year with renewed interest in school. Let’s not give them more schooling but promote them to use the time in school to the best of their advantage. We need to quit following our kids around and giving excuses and letting the public pick up the slack. It’s getting old. We need to promote responsibility, not complacency, by making an education something you earn.

And I don’t understand how vouchers would leave out the poor. Many poor people want to educate their kids th most, and it would benefit those greatly, period. For those that don’t and never will care, they’ll end up in the same place anyway. Quit fooling yourselves.

Public education has become public placation.

By DB

September 26, 2005 01:23 PM | Link to this

Nickole: That’s the whole point. The competition will make schools better. I’m sorry, but if my kids had the chance to attend a better school and cared, they’d find a way to get there. It happens all the time already. We have these cool things like MARTA and the NYC subway, etc. Their local schools will be terrible anyway. So, again, it’s either vouchers or significantly improve what we already have. Maybe there should be travel vouchers for public transportation?

By lynn

September 26, 2005 01:35 PM | Link to this

Vouchers, as originally intended, can be used for any public or private school. One of the largest groups that opposses vouchers are parents in suburban communities with good public schools. They don’t want a flow of people who couldn’t afford to live in their communities to have access to their schools.

Sad, but true. Additionally, in Metro Atlanta, most private schools are overflowing with students and applicants. The good schools won’t want the accountability that may come with vouchers and won’t need to take students who need to use vouchers.

As for my comments about a longer school day, I should have clarified. I believe, and the research supports, that longer days and more school days benefit children who have little support at home, who are significantly below grade level and who have little opportunity for the extras like music lessons, etc. Just check out the results of KIPP academies in Houston, Texas and the Bronx.

Education shouldn’t be one size fits all. But, in our midst, are children who have no opportunities for enrichment or remediation unless it is at school.

By David

September 26, 2005 02:01 PM | Link to this

The one part of this discussion that always bothers me is the concept that vouchers are Federal money. Why do we not have the same prejudice when it comes to any refund we get when we file our taxes each April 15? If anyone in government or the public wanted to control what we did with our tax refund we would be all up in arms. The money that would be given in vouchers is no different. It is a tax refund allowing us as citizens to determine where the money is spent to purchase the best education possible for our own children. It’s our money, and it’s our kids. Let us who know and love our children the best and most determine what is best for them and their future.

By Jake

September 26, 2005 02:26 PM | Link to this

David, less than half of Federal taxpayers have school age children, it’s their money too. The argument that the entire tax base pays for public school, is that public education is in the public interest, just like you pay for fire and police services for the community, whether or not you actually use them. The question should be whether or not providing federal or state vouchers is in the public good. While they might provide better opportunities for the more gifted, what is the social cost of thereby leaving underfunded public schools with all the special ed, poor, and below average IQ kids?

By C.R.H.

September 26, 2005 02:41 PM | Link to this

I am a public school teacher & I think vouchers would be great…as long as those of us who own homes and don’t have children get a taxbreak while we are “handing out money”! (Shouldn’t those who are using the most resources start paying for them?) And I don’t mean hitting us with some BS sales tax INSTEAD of property taxes. I taught at a private school before taking a job in public schools, most of the parents cheering FOR vouchers probably wouldn’t be able to use them at most private schools they want their kids to attend because most private schools are small and prefer to stay that way. I do think it would be interesting to see how many private schools would be able to meet the pile of state (& federal) requirements that would come with these vouchers. Testing and more testing, private schools being told they aren’t making AYP (and labeled as “needs improvement”) because the minorities or the SPED kids aren’t making the grade on the EOCT…oh wait, that would never happen because private schools probably wouldn’t let in the academically low performing students because unlike the public schools, they don’t HAVE TO! It would also be fun to watch kids getting booted from private schools (and losing their voucher money) in droves and parents trying to bully the school into keeping their kids because “they have a right” to be there and “those teachers are just picking” on their child.

By Parent

September 26, 2005 02:50 PM | Link to this

Your question is answered with only two words: TEST CASE!

By Cammie

September 26, 2005 02:50 PM | Link to this

“what is the social cost of thereby leaving underfunded public schools with all the special ed, poor, and below average IQ kids?”

I think there will be schools designed to accommodate every type of child. In general, children learn because they benefit from a certain teaching method. The main benefit of vouchers and charter schools is that they give parents input into how their child will be educated.

There are tons of private schools for special ed kids. I am sure many parents would like to use thier child’s portion of the educational funds to send their hearing impaired child to a private school, or their dyslexic child to a specialized school.

Its not just smart kids who want a different education.

By JW

September 26, 2005 03:07 PM | Link to this

I think we should just make each school a “private” school. Let the parents choose which school they believe is best for their children. However, the school should get the final say on who is in and who is not - just like private schools. Also, when the school has reached its capacity, parents are directed to look elsewhere - this eliminates the need for trailer classrooms. Also, parents can be responsible for transportation to and from school each day.

Can you just imagine the scenario playing out in overcrowded counties like Gwinnett? You would have parents camping out in front of schools weeks and months prior to school registration trying the get their kids into certain schools. Also, you think the traffic is horrible now, wait until school buses are eliminated and everyone is driving children to school and back home each day.

These are some things that people should think about before jumping on the voucher bandwagon.

By SWC

September 26, 2005 03:12 PM | Link to this

Lynn - Thank you for your clarifications! You’re probably right about the opposition coming from suburban schools. Its not coming from the poor. But if a parent cares enough to drive their kid to and from school everyday then their child is probably going to be an asset and not a detriment to the school. I would hope that they would have to stay in the county where they live. Everyone - Re the future of private schools, more schools would open as opportunities for funding arose. Not all private schools are geared exclusively toward “elite” students. Some schools may stress character development, or the arts, as much as academics. NCLB requirements shouldn’t apply to those schools any more than they do now - that’s the diffence between “vouchers” and direct funding. I think we should at least give it a chance in some “at risk” districts to start and see what happens before we jump to conclusions about how horrible it would be.

By Dan

September 26, 2005 03:38 PM | Link to this

One of the more common arguments against vouchers is it would financially undermine the public schools. But as with many things people parrot the pols in their particular party. In the areas where vouchers have been tried (and they have been extremely successful) the value of the voucher is only part of what the district spends per child. The exact numbers need to be worked out but if Fulton county spends and average of $8K a year (just made up people) The voucher would be for say $4-5K or whatever is determined to be the variable costs,leaving the balance in the associated PS district. Meaning the remaining students would have more funding per student, more room per student and more teachers per student. and the families who want to their child to go to a private school gets to use a portion of the tax they paid to do so. There is no abject answer but there is more than enough logical reasons for to try it out. It really can’t get much worse

By Dan

September 26, 2005 03:43 PM | Link to this

David you are right in your refund analogy. Allowing school tuition to be deductable would be a good method but it would need to be driven to the local level, federal funding only accounts for about 8% of public education.

By Leia

September 26, 2005 03:50 PM | Link to this

Do you think that if we went to a voucher system that the private school teachers would have to get state certification like public school teachers?

By HS Science

September 26, 2005 03:55 PM | Link to this

You truly posed some loaded questions under this topic. First, “Is this a benevolent gesture or a test case for a federal voucher program?” This is truly a back room, back door test case for a federal voucher program. What they federal government has not pushed states to do they are doing anyway. But, the question that we should look at is … If there are not enough vacant classrooms in public schools for the displaced students how many vacant rooms does the government think there are in Private schools? Is the Federal government going to insist that the Private schools rush through the applications and admit all that apply? The Public Schools will have to do this, we will have to accept them as they come.

This proposal also raises another question as to those students not effected by the storm? What about children of parents that were laid off due to the economy? What about children of the unemployed? These students are also victims of forces beyond their control, so don’t we have to also extend the offer to these students or face discrimination charges?

“Would vouchers give parents an escape from failing public schools? Or would vouchers further doom public schools by leaving only the kids who do not have parents advocating on their behalf?” As far as an escape for parents I think that this is a too often stated misconception. There are some truly gifted students that may benift from the special atmosphere of some private schools but those schools cost far more than $7500 per year.

Parents would not be escaping failing schools because they would find that they would soon be back in the same situation. I’m in Bibb County now and as I have watched the transfer of students under “M-to-M” and “NCLB” what I see is that we feed the passing schools many of our problem students and they, the passing schools, find their scores dropping. We have gone from 3 High Schools passing to only 1, and it will join us this year if their testing trends continue. The same thing would happen at private schools.

Big question not asked - “Will the public still be able to place all the blame for failing students on public schools and teachers?”

By DB

September 26, 2005 03:55 PM | Link to this

C.R.H.-You make good points, but I think private schools would be no different. They have certain requirements for kids to get in, and I don’t think those would change. Keep in mind that parents would still have to pay the difference in tuition. It would benefit the middle class the most, which I don’t think is necessarily a bad thing. However, as soon as govt. requirements get into it, that’s where it gets scary. Private schools would then be bogged down with futile bureaucracy and begin to spiral.

At any rate, public schools would improve, and vouchers would not be needed as much after several years.

The more I think about it, I’m more for just improving the situations we have in public schools.

Lynn: KIPP schools are a step in the right direction, but they in no means fit every community. They’re good for the inner city kids, but what about the rest of the population? I’m just tired of everyone focusing on the poor and underserved. Sure, don’t leave them behind, but don’t base the whole argument on them. ALL KIDS ARE GETTING A POOR EDUCATION, not just the poor ones. And they’re not the only ones that need education. There’s a whole crowd of middle class kids learning next to nothing, especially when it comes to responsibility. :]

By Ernest

September 26, 2005 04:11 PM | Link to this

Dan:

I think your math is off. Using your numbers, if there were 100 students for Fulton county, that would result in 8 hundred thousand dollars for the school system. If you eliminate 20 students, I understand you eliminate 2 hundred thousand dollars, meaning you support the same infrastructure with less money. The dollars allocated per student represents an ‘average’ number. If the school system is left with students that it costs them more to educate, you end up trying to do more with less.

Somebody correct me if I’m wrong on this assumption.

By Iteach

September 26, 2005 04:28 PM | Link to this

I wonder if any real intelligent thoght was used to reach this decission? First it will take time for our paperwork-guidelined-gridlocked government to institute such a program. Then the question arises as to how the damaged and destroyed schools will be rebuilt if we send the money for the displaced students to other localities.

Is the federal government suggesting to those that are displaced that they should not return to the Gulf areas? Or, is the federal government hinting that they intend to create a new New Orleans that will only welcome back those with the means to return?

As a public school teacher, I do not see vouchers as the answers unless the NCLB requirements are extended to cover all educational institutions. In my system we have seen that the parents with means will withdraw their students that do not pass the High School Graduation Test and place their children in our local private schools so that their child will still get a High School Diploma. As I look at the High school numbers, there is a steady decline of students from the 9th to 12th grade (about a 50% drop) but several of our local private schools have senoir classes 3 times the size of their 9th grade classes.

I thank all parents that trust our public school system to do the best for their children. If you look at the real facts you will see that we, the public schools, do produce some excellent students. Unfortunately, the public wants to look at our bottom students a lot more. This type of single focus is why so many were surprised to see so much poverty after Katrina hit New Orleans - all they wanted to see was one side.

By kimmie

September 26, 2005 04:50 PM | Link to this

My question is…If these families could afford private school before Hurricane Katrina, why can’t they afford it now? Why do they need vouchers to pay for their child’s tuition for a different private school? The people whose livelihood and homes were devastated by the hurricane don’t seem to be the ones who had children in private school. I think that this is a poorly disguised test case for the federal voucher program.

By Dan

September 26, 2005 04:59 PM | Link to this

Kimmie, There were people all throughout rural mississippi, louisiana and alabama who lost their homes and if they didn’t have flood insurance they are far worse off then someone who’s rental apartment was destroyed. Many of these people are scrimpers and savers who manage to buy a house and provide for their children, in sheer numbers their are far more of these folks, it just isn’t as provocative for the media so you don’t see it wihtout doing a little research.

By Dan

September 26, 2005 05:07 PM | Link to this

Ernest The reason the voucher is less than the average cost is beacuse only variable costs move. Meaning if the child goes to a new school the cost go down in the old one. Infrastructure costs ie fixed costs that don’t go down when a child moves remain with the original school. As far as schools left with children that cost more to educate, scenario one would be special ed kids, that funding needs to be handled separately. As far as the problem kids, if you buy into the idea that they cost more to educate the corrolary is the benefit of no vouchers is you get to use the savings from the well behaved kids to support the misbaved. Sorry that wouldn’t and shouldn’t be tolerated by most rational folks. That is the primary reason to go to private school anyway discipline

By sm

September 26, 2005 05:17 PM | Link to this

I agree with CRH. I’m a public school teacher. Bring on the vouchers as long as private institutions are being held accountable just as public schools are… they must take the GHSGT, EOCT, Gateway, or any other stadardized test and be held accountable under NCLB. Maybe then when all schools haven’t met AYP, the government will realize that NCLB isn’t working, and they will quit interfering with things they know nothing about. …but probably not… something else will just take its place.

By Dan

September 27, 2005 08:27 AM | Link to this

Psst here are two facts 1 Federal funding represents about 8% of public school budgets in georgia 2 Local officials set the rules regarding NCLB not feds. Feds just dictate the locals need to have consisten measurable rules. Hard to argue with that

By Marney

September 27, 2005 08:54 AM | Link to this

I would like to discuss whether Lynn’s comment that kids whose parents don’t advocate on their behalf may be doomed anyway. It is certainly the case that dispite all the efforts of “the system”, the behavior of the parents matters greatly. My questions are “what is our moral responsibility in this case?”, “Are these kids truely doomed?” “Is there something in the way publc education is structured that encourages or enables the parents to behave this way?”

My personal belief is that education is not a zero-sum game where there are a certain number of predetermined winners and losers and advocacy means making sure your own child is with the expected winners. I am involved with a charter school full of a varity of “misfits” to the traditional system. There is something symbolic to parents about having a real say in how their chid is treated that can actually change expectaions, parental behavior, and therefore outcomes. “The system” has told parents for years that they ought to do certain things for their children to no avail. Any many parents have tried to tell “the system” that their child needs something different. I am hoping that the example of sucess that putting a bunch of families together that actually “walk the walk” give, will motivate change in others.

By Ernest

September 27, 2005 09:18 AM | Link to this

Dan, I understand why the value of the voucher is less than the average cost per student. My point was you seemed to suggest the difference would be held by the school system, to equally distribute between remaining students. My understanding is the school system would lose the average dollars associated with each child thus resulting in fewer dollars for the remaining students. I understand your point regarding coming up with an ‘algorithm’ to determine a ‘dollar value’ for special needs children however I would want to believe that would be considered illegal.

I seem to recall that during the middle of October, a ‘count’ is done for all students in a school system to help determine the funding allocation. Is anyone familiar with this?

After reading many of the comments, I’m beginning to believe vouchers will not work because of the rules the feds would probably create for schools to receive the monies. Currently, private schools can ‘discriminate’ if they do not offer the services a child may need. If they accept vouchers, would they then have to accept all comers?

By lynn

September 27, 2005 09:27 AM | Link to this

Marney

keep in mind, that at a charter school, most parents have to at least make the effort to make the choice to send their kids there. These kids, in my opinion, are already winners!

At our school, we have kids who manage to attend 6 schools in one year. Of course, it isn’t the kids fault, it is their parents. How sad for that child, but frankly, their parents wouldn’t make a choice if they had too. Some of these parents are poor, but some are just wildly indifferent.

I have a friend who is a special ed. teacher at a school that aggressively tries to help kids (this is a middle schoo). For a huge percentage of kids, by the time she identifies them and tests them, they are gone. So whereever they land, she can only hope that the new school will use the results that are in their records. (most won’t — they aren’t as aggressive about helping such children._

I believe that public education lets parents off far to easily. Send us your child and that is all you have to do. I had hoped that in Governor Barnes education reform act that he would include parental responsibility requirements (he had considered it) but he didn’t it.

I did point out in my post, that it would be interesting to look at the Athens City and Gainesville City school systems since they now have total elementary school choice.

By Marney

September 27, 2005 09:44 AM | Link to this

Ernest, there is one count on the 1st tuesday in October, and a second count sometime in March where they literally “count” the children in attendance on that day and the funding a school gets for operations is then based on the grade levels and special needs catagories that the specific children have multiplied by the “training and expierence” factors for the teachers and programs that they are in. This is called the “QBE formula”, and it is a complicated mess. There are all kinds of games played and unfairness hidden in this algorithm—and it is one of the reasons that traditional schools cannot be flexible because the state will cut funding if they don’t follow all the mandates embedded in the formula.

And yes, in our sysem an ESOL or Disabled children are worth more. So if vouchers are based on average spending but these “harder to serve” kids aren’t taken by the private schools, you are making the traditional public schools into the “poorhouse” school of the past.—but my earlier point was that we are already well down that road in “title 1” schools.

By Marney

September 27, 2005 10:03 AM | Link to this

Lynn, I fully agree that those who take action to enroll at a charter school are already winners no matter what other challenges they face.

Did you know that 1500 parents in South Dekalb lined up on a Saturday morning in the middle of the summer to request that their children be transfered out of their failing schools? Any yet, if all NCLB compels is a shell game of giving them the same program with a new seat assignment, have we done anything?

We need to empower these parent in a real way to be part of the solution and if others see real change, we may find that in many (but clearly not all) cases, what we took for apathy was actually the psychological defense against a hopeless situation.

By GroovyGirl

September 27, 2005 10:06 AM | Link to this

Gimme, gimme, gimme…..

By Dick

September 27, 2005 11:10 AM | Link to this

We can correct many faults of our education system if we would adopt thoughts of Bill Gates. He gave speech that had 11 rules which I thought pretty well hit a lot of the nails on the head.

Rule #7-Before you were born your parents weren’t as boring as they are now. They got that way from paying your bills, cleaning your clothes, and listening to how cool you are. So before you save the rain forest from the parasites of your parents generation, try delousing the closet in your own room. Rule #8-Your school may have done away with winners and losers, but life has not. In some schools they had abolished failing grades and they will give you as many times as you want to get the right asnwer. This doesn’t bear the slightest resemblance to ANYTHING in real life. Rule #9-Life is not divided into semesters. You don’t get summers off and v;ery few employres are interested in helping you find yourself. Do that on your own time. Rule 10-Televison is not real life. IN real life people actually have to leave the coffee shop and go to jobs. Rule 11-Be nice to nerds, Chances are you will end up working for one. Gates talks about how feel-good politically correct teaching created a full generation of kids with no concept of reality and how this concept set them up for failure in the real world.

By C.R.H.

September 27, 2005 12:12 PM | Link to this

I have some new rules: #12 learn how to read! It really should be rule #1 because it is probably the single most important indicator of success.

By DB

September 27, 2005 12:13 PM | Link to this

Dick: Thanks for the 11 rules. They are great! However, Bill Gates didn’t come up with them. It’s an urban legend. The person responsible for them is Charles J. Sykes.

By Dan

September 27, 2005 03:05 PM | Link to this

Ernest, your concerns are valid if you accept some of your assumptions. Clearly they would have to change how they fund public schools ( a count is a assinine way to do it anyway ) and they would have to leave the schools to the own devices regarding admittance etc. They would simply have to be accredited as they are now. Someone mentioned earlier simply allowing school tuition to be deductible on taxes (subject to a cap of some sort) The net is there are a certain mumber of students who either cannot or will not perform regardless of the school they attend. Vouchers are simply a means by which parents can attempt to avoid having a willing child dragged down by those with lower aspirations

By veritas

September 27, 2005 04:03 PM | Link to this

“claiming they “are lost and don’t understandâ€? what they should be doing. Yeah, that will go over well at work”

That’s because the point of school is to force you to practice an uncertain task, and the point of work is to enable you to perform at a known task.

By C.R.H.

September 27, 2005 04:06 PM | Link to this

Following instructions is a known task at school or at work.

By Nicole

September 27, 2005 04:16 PM | Link to this

As an educator in one on Georgia’s finest school systems, I am appalled that the US Secretary of Education would even suggest something so idiotic. It wasn’t enough that schools have welcomed student victims from Katrina with open arms and in some case purses, but now the quality of education that we have been providing for Georgia students that are unable to afford private schools is not acceptable for students misplaced by Katrina. The desire for one’s child to attend private school did not dissipate with the storm, but one would think that more immediate needs such as providing adequate shelter and securing a job would be top priority. If the vouchers are for students that previously attended private schools then how will this information be verified so that those are truly the recipients? Will the same process for passing out the Red Cross debit cards follow for dispensing the vouchers? Who is going to assume the cost for educating those students once the vouchers run out? And God forbid if parents misuse the voucher. I beg the federal government to rethink this issue. Instead, provide funds for additional services for the students that are in the public schools such as counselors, psychologist, and teachers.

By veritas

September 27, 2005 04:33 PM | Link to this

“Following instructions is a known task at school or at work.”

So why do many people find math difficult? It’s all just following instructions.

By luvs2teach

September 27, 2005 04:41 PM | Link to this

I think what is often overlooked when discussing “average per student costs” is thatthe stated amount may not (and mostly likely isn’t) being spent on YOUR child. Some children cost more - spcial ed students that require a parapro to escort them all day ($13,000/year). Special Ed, ESOL, and gifted students in class with mandated lower ratios. Every student in ISS! It’s unfair to compare per student averages when public schools have to make so many more accomodations.

The public school system has some problems, no doubt about it. I’m not sure that vouchers and privatization would solve the problem of unmotivated students with uncaring parents who move them about several times in a school year.

This voucher idea is a step down a slippery slope. There have been times in our nation’s history when sacrifices have been asked of our citizen - rationing in World War II comes to mind. This was a natural disaster and a tragedy. As such, people might need to lower their expectations temporarily, and make some sacrifices. There are a lot of more pressing needs, IMHO, than providing vouchers for private schools right now.

By C.R.H.

September 27, 2005 04:42 PM | Link to this

Some math requires some aspect of problem solving skills (or analysis and synthesis…skills not everyone has) not just following instructions. Many people also have difficulty with the somewhat abstractness of math, not to mention the portion of people who also can’t follow instructions!

By Karen

September 27, 2005 04:50 PM | Link to this

Reg Weaver (NEA) says, “At this time, the most urgent need is to restore a sense of normalcy for the more than 300,000 students displaced by the storm.â€? Vouchers would get them back into normal classrooms, and integrate them into stable, functioning communities faster than anything else being considered or discussed. Reg Weaver says, “We should be focusing our efforts on meeting the needs of these students.â€? Their need for education? Apparently not. Reg Weaver says, “Vouchers do nothing to solve the problems created by Hurricane Katrina. Vouchers don’t repair or rebuild neighborhood schools that have been devastated by this storm or provide traumatized children with access to comprehensive services they and their families need.â€? Let’s see… the American Red Cross, the Salvation Army, Habitat for Humanity, United Way, and countless other non-sectarian and faith-based providers can’t deal with some of the logistical and “comprehensive servicesâ€? needs, in order to free the schools to educate kids? Reg Weaver says, “We need to look at real, long-term solutions - not risky band-aid fixes that won’t do anything to help these kids find the normalcy they’ll need to help them heal.â€? Some of the damaged schools will be repaired, and some of the destroyed schools will be rebuilt. However, no one knows right now, how many of the residents will be returning, or precisely where they will settle. The LAST thing we need to do is invest lots of money in setting up temporary “long-termâ€? solutions; think, refugee camps. Just say no. Reg Weaver says, “NEA will continue to work with leaders in Congress in a bipartisan way to ensure that the real needs of students are met — for classrooms, educators, textbooks, school supplies, counseling and in many cases clothes.” No thanks, Reg.

By Dan

September 27, 2005 05:05 PM | Link to this

luvs2teach The voucher system isn’t supposed to help solve the problem of “unmotivated students with uncaring parents who move them about several times in a school year” it is to allow students who are motivated and have caring parents to avoid the negative influence of those you speak about, without having to pay twice. It’s a shame that it is even an issue, but a kid should be able to attend class in a place conducive to learning

By old teacher

September 28, 2005 08:56 AM | Link to this

Fairness is used almost exclusively in the education system.

By old teacher

September 28, 2005 08:57 AM | Link to this

Of course, what is fair isn’t always what is right.

By Lee

October 5, 2005 08:28 AM | Link to this

As a parent who has a child attending private school, yes, it is frustrating to pay twice - once in the form of taxes and again for private school tuition. It is especially frustrating because the reason I pulled my child out of public school was because I lost faith in the ability of the public school to provide an adequate education for my child.

That said, I am against vouchers. I think that there is no “free money” from the government - it comes with a price tag. I think that if the government started giving vouchers to parents, they would soon start placing stipulations on what the private schools could teach and how they teach. Vouchers would also have an inflationary effect on private school tuition. With vouchers, we would end up with a government school system and a quasi-government school system.

It seems to me that the main problem with public schools is that they are being forced to comply with federal and state mandates - mandates that seem to have little to do with education. Ask any teacher what is the most frustrating thing about teaching and they will tell you having to do all the standardized testing and administrative paperwork to comply with government regulations.

I am happy with my private school. They are serving my needs and I am happy with the results. In a few short years, my child will graduate and I will no longer have to pay twice. But I guarantee you that the government will still be trying to “fix” education.

By Dan

October 5, 2005 09:14 AM | Link to this

Lee I have to say that is the first logical anti voucher comment I have seen. What would you say about allowing a tax deduction in lieu of vouchers. After all even church donations are tax deductible, and they do not cause the churches to ‘toe the political line.