Get Schooled

By Karen Armsby

September 20, 2005 10:20 AM | Link to this

Patti, Define ‘underserved’ please. Does it mean the schools are not doing their jobs or the parents and community are failing their kids?

By Patti

September 20, 2005 10:34 AM | Link to this

Hmmm … In this case I was thinking about kids who do not have parents or guardians advocating for them. These kids do not always reap the benefits of programs initiated by involved parents. I’m not saying they don’t ever benefit. A safer gym floor can be enjoyed by all. But AP Chinese …

I’m not saying integrated schools are bad, just that being integrated is not enough to make a school good for all kids. Does that make sense?

By ziza817

September 20, 2005 11:04 AM | Link to this

It was with great sadness that I read the Kozol article in the AJC on Sunday. I am afraid that while there are pockets of success for underserved students, the grim reality is that the current American public education fails them miserably. The other grim reality is that those students whose parents have the resources, both financial and otherwise, regardless of color will succeed. I do not believe that this is what the advocates of public eductation had in mind when this concept was introduced in this country. The fact is that there are far too many who do not succeed based on several factors, including lack of the failure of public schools to nurture and educate all students regardless of background and parental support. Also let us not forget that even those students who do “succeed” in the public school system are still far behind both their national and international peers in mathematics, science, economics, geography and other basic concepts that just a generation ago we were on par with. The American public school system is failing, and the sooner we all admit it and demand excellence, the better. Isolated success stories are not enough, do not reflect reality and do nothing to fix what is a continuing downward spiral that will have far reaching consequences for our country.

By RF

September 20, 2005 11:30 AM | Link to this

Patti—I think you’re right. In 16 years of teaching, I’ve taught in schools that have had demographic shifts in populations. It isn’t about the numbers of which ethnic group you have, it’s about what you do to reach the kids-regardless of ethnic origin. Every school I’ve ever known has ridden the test score waves based on their best and brightest. That said, look at schools that have gone through racial shifts in population. White-flight/suburban sprawl has left many “good” schools suddenly on the “at-risk” list. I think we have a long way to go in learning how to teach poorer students. The issue is much more complicated that racial balance. It’s about attitudes toward education and family. It’s about middle-class values versus poverty values. I always end up mentioning this book, but Dr. Ruby Payne’s A Framework for Understanding Poverty says a lot about how value systems differ in econmic classes. To me, the problem isn’t about racial balance as much as it is about socio-economic balance. Where there is a largely middle to upper class population, regardless of race, schools do better.

By RF

September 20, 2005 11:34 AM | Link to this

ziza— are you a teacher?? If so, you would know that the curricula we are teaching in this country if far, far beyond anything we’ve had in the past. We keep raising the bar, but we can’t fight attitudes toward education that are sinking th ship. If the American system is failing, it is failing because of defeatist attitudes such as yours. We have the curricula, the skills to teach, and the desire. Come teach for a while and you will see that, and I think you will change your mind as to why the system isn’t succeeding.

By Sharon

September 20, 2005 11:35 AM | Link to this

Patti, I’m curious to know when and where you are making these observations. Perhaps you should write a book and document your findings. Oh, and did you take notice of how many non-minority kids do not have “the back ground” to do well in AP classes, or how many kids who don’t have the “back ground” still rise to the level of expectations placed before them?

As a minority (African American) product of an urban school who took many AP, advanced and Joint Enrollment classes, I am thoroughly offended by the constant assumption that somehow, minorities get a free pass into positions that they are not qualified for. I think this is a very dangerous assumption, especially for minorities that buy in to it. Just because a black person or any other minority is able to perform on par with his/her white peers, and even if he/she does better than the average white person in terms of tests, grades - he/she will find no red carpet laid out before him/her. An average performing minority does not receive offers to enter AP or Adv. classes by virtue of skin color, and scholarships don’t come falling out of the sky. If anything, they are hampered by the surprise and doubt of those around them.

As for your comment on training people for vocations - why not train more low performing white children for vocations. Instead, people assume these children can do better – and are not “geneticallyâ€? flawed. Why should there be a larger percentage of “minorities” prepared for vocational fields than white children. Nothing is wrong with vocational training of course, but people should capitalize on their strengths and not be hampered by assumptions bases upon their “race.” I suspect that you, like many others, are buying into the racist scientific theories of our day -after all - it’s science right? Believe it or not, even the majority of low performing minorities can be taught to do more than sewing or cooking in the right environment.

By RF

September 20, 2005 12:08 PM | Link to this

Sharon—here’s a few questions for you. How do I, as a classroom teacher, fight the stereotypes about my minority students? The kids themselves buy into the stereotypes because they are inundated with them in the media and entertainment industry. It’s cool to be “ghetto” these days. How can I adjust the thinking of my kids and make them realize how important an education like you had is for them? They are soooo into the “hip” lifestyle and there aren’t enough role models like yourself to show them. How do we change the value system of those in poverty to value education?

By MrLiberty

September 20, 2005 12:22 PM | Link to this

I attended a wonderful private school that was quite integrated. The bottom line, and many have already said this, is that the parents cared enough to make the financial sacrifices to VALUE the education their children were receiving. Any copout regarding funding, etc. is just that. Whether inner city or suburbs, government schools spend a disgusting amount of money on each student. Most of it is a waste in administration and regulation compliance.

There is a false assumption that integrating poor and rich somehow makes them both better. The bottom line is that every kid has to come home to their family, their values, and their morals. Families that have spent their entire existence living off the success and hard work of others (government employees and those on welfare), are inherently unable to make or convey the connection to their children between hard work in the free market, voluntary exchange of goods and services, and the value of work for money. Free money with no connection to work, free education with no regards to cost or outcomes, and every other government-provided service simply undermines the fundamental morality of society. Charity is a voluntary thing, taxation is not - there is a difference.

Government appologists, especially those attempting to justify the horrible performance of government schools, constantly blame the parents, while handing them a check and telling them not to worry.

Parents will only begin to care once it is their money that is being spent on education. They care about where they rent, they care about the clothes they buy, they care about the cars they drive, but they care not about the schools their kids attend because they don’t have to pay, and they really don’t have any say or recourse when the school they thought would educate their kids turns out to be a lemon.

By RF

September 20, 2005 12:48 PM | Link to this

MrLiberty—just remember that we “government apologists” who work in the schools are fighting against the prevailing tides of bad attitudes towards education from outside. I don’t make apologies, I just try to get the point across that we’re trying, but as much as education isn’t valued in this country, we can’t do what we really need to do. It’s not so much about them needing to pay for it as it is removing the safety net of welfare and other programs so that they have to have the education we offer to survive. The schools are doing their jobs, but we have to contend with parents who don’t know the importance of education. There’s only so much we can do with that. If parents are interested and involved, then schools aren’t likely to be “lemons”.

By Ernest

September 20, 2005 12:51 PM | Link to this

I was somewhat troubled when I read this on Sunday. I plan to try to attend the event at ML King, Jr. HS on 10/22. Following is one statement I’m trying to understand:

*Tests are not a substitute for well-paid teachers who are experienced enough to give the children of the poor the kind of education we give the children of the rich. The president has not lifted a finger to put more money into these segregated schools. He’s demanding more but providing them less. *

Trying not to get political but didn’t CA respond to a lawsuit of education inequities by lowering the student/teacher ratios in classes only to have the students do worse on testing? It seems the ‘unintended consequences’ were they hired many ‘unqualified’ teachers who were ill equipped to help those in need. Why didn’t they hire qualified teachers? I believe everyone will agree, the current supply of qualified teachers does not match the demand.

School funding is always a touchy issue. Implementing NCLB is a confusing issue. I thought one of the goals of NCLB was to create greater awareness of the achievement gap through standardized testing then address then by offering additonal opportunities such as additional resources (Reading First program), free tutoring (which has a value associated with it), and ultimately transportation to another school. Whether there are federal dollars to assist with transportation is questionable as this may be one of the ‘unfunded mandates’.

Lastly, who can legislate housing patterns? I believe most will agree, forced busing did NOT work. What solutions does he offer to address current housing patterns? Simply spending more money will not be acceptable without accountability.

By KMF

September 20, 2005 01:07 PM | Link to this

MrLiberty, Can you please step down very carefully from your high-horse? Obviously, you must surround yourself only with the higher-income circle. If you would just step outside of yourself, ignore your self-obession, and take a look at the people of this world. Not everyone is as blessed as you. Let me make a few assumptions, based on your comments: - You’ve never associated or volunteered any of your valuable time to any charitable organization or humanity-based group. - You’ve never gone without…anything a day in your life. So you wouldn’t know what it’s like growing up in a single-family home, mother working long hours, preventing any quality time to go over homework or even know what her children are doing after school. Did you grow up in a neighborhood where you were scared to walk alone, or had to carry a weapon in your bookbag, because you had drug addicts and dealers on the corner early in the morning when you went to school?

Believe it or not, there are many families who put great value on education, but can barely pay their rent every month, let alone afford to pay for their child’s elementary education. You see the rate of minorities in the military? That’s because most of them want to take advantage of the GI bill, and be able to afford a higher education. So they’ll sacrifice their life for that opportunity(that’s quite a trade off, don’t you think?). Especially when you’re defending a country that’s still deeply racist, and cares more about profit than human welfare.

I see so much irony in this country, when so many of you claim to be Christian, but totally FAIL to care anything for your brothers and sisters in this world. People don’t choose their race or status at birth, therefore consider yourself blessed if you’ve had opportunities in life that others haven’t. And ask yourself why others can’t have that opportunity, NOT why they can’t pull themselves up to your level when they started behind the curve.

By Taxpayer

September 20, 2005 01:12 PM | Link to this

KMF, why was your mother a single parent? What circumstances brought her to that role?

By KMF

September 20, 2005 01:24 PM | Link to this

Actually, I was born to a single mother, but adopted into a 2-parent home at a young age. And I see the difference between the 2 life-styles. It makes a huge difference.

I believe though, that the continued failures in education can be directly linked to the continued increase in poverty, and the separation of economic classes. How can a parent focus on their child’s studies if they can barely feed them on a daily basis, and pay bills? If you come from an upper-income family where only 1 parent has to work, then you’re at a tremendous advantage. You have someone you can call upon for answers to your questions, someone to supervise your activities, and you can see the benefits of an education right there in your household! If you’re living under poorer conditions, how can you be enthusiastic about school, when the people in your surroundings are struggling every day? What do they have to look forward to?

We need to focus on better job-training for the poor, housing supplements, and get the communities involved. Help raise money for public schools to purchase computers, better lab equipment, fund field trips, etc. It takes a collaborative effort: government and community. That’s the only way this country can move forward.

Just my humble opinion…

By SWC

September 20, 2005 01:30 PM | Link to this

It is not race, but class borne out of a ghetto culture that divides us. Opportunities abound, but since the Sixties, blacks have been told things like “I’m black and I’m proud” which just serves to separate them further from the rest of society by emphasising their “blackness” instead of their potential for goodness.

Until blacks DEMAND that their leaders stop promoting a culture of victimization, rap and other music that teaches nothing but vulgarity, gangs, violence, teenage parenthood, one-parent families, et cetera, all the money and integration in the world will not help, and only exacerbates the problem by enabling a disfunctional culture to flourish.

The prevailing black culture is different from white culture - that is indisputable. It is not the fault of white culture that black culture is such a miserable failure (unless you want to blame the white liberals who pushed the welfare state and destroyed the family unit in the process).

Blacks have been told to reject Western Civilization and white men, and taught instead to admire their African roots. “Black Studies” is emphasised over history. Jive pseudo-intellecutals like Cornel West guide their advanced education. They are not encouraged to be Americans, but to hate America.

Not only is the popular culture corrupt, they have outright lunatics like Farrakan and the “New Black Panthers” who do nothing but spread hatred and paranoia. If white people espoused similar theories we’d be thrown in the looney bin or in jail for “hate crimes”. I saw one of these evil demagogues who hails from DeKalb Cty. on Hannity & Colmes last night, spewing his dangerous venom.

If you want a glimpse at the popular culture, check out late night BET TV and you will be appalled, digusted and revolted by what you see (not to mention the weekly news from places like Clayton County and other black meccas where shooting each other is sport and a source of pride).

Certainly the solution is not to force integration - that was tried through school busing and caused white flight in the first place. You cannot social-engineer your way to success by forcing disparate white and black culture together. While my son’s elementary and Middle schools have been quite good, and most of the blacks are high-achieving middle class AMERICANS. But, he will not be attending the high school we are zoned for. We will move or put him in private school. Why? Because I refuse to put my son in a school where knife fights are the norm. I will not allow my son to be used as a tool for a social experiment in integration. Don’t blame me for fleeing!

One school where they have gotten around the black/poverty situation is Capitol Hill Elementary, but that is still an elementary school and does not have the middle school/high school posse corrupting these kids yet.

So, instead of writing books that blame it on whitey,or white flight, why not harness that energy and work to change a culture that breeds failure?

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

September 20, 2005 01:37 PM | Link to this

I’m a very observant person and I have seen so many “college� educated white people, who walk into positions, but can’t perform simple every day task. I’m talking about their job description, without having someone outline the entire process for them. I often wonder how this could be possible, since their SAT scores and AP classes reflect such outstanding comprehension. As an African American, I feel that I have to put in extra efforts, just to get my foot in the door. Sharon is correct; we do not get the red carpet treatment. I’ve been working in corporate America for over 10years and I have worked very closely with my white counter parts. Many of them buy into the stereotypes about black people. I’m always very cautious about using slang while at work and how my hairstyles will reflect upon me. I can’t listen to the types of music I like, because I’m afraid it will dictate my next promotion or lack of getting a promotion. However, they do not have to abide by those strict “Personality Rules�. Yes, they follow the business standards, but guess what “they set the standards�.

The point I am trying to make is: (1.) African-Americans must act and live outside of a “sometimes� bad culture in order to make it in society. (2.) Many see that - what is considered “Good/Successful� as being like white people. (3.) Most are asking themselves and their parents “What’s� wrong with their speech, clothing, hairstyles, music, etc…. (4.) Many African American kids want “success� to happen faster than an everyday college education can achieve it.

This leads to another point: (1.) The concern about lack of role models - and my answer to that would be, there are bad role models in white society and they are followed just as closely as the hip-hop culture icons are followed. No one makes them a “Big� issue.

The kids are not achieving, because they feel that “even if� they study hard and get excellent grades and graduate from college – how will it benefit them? Will they become the CEO or the company and will they have to work “extra� hard because of the stereotypes? Will they have to eliminate the slang, wear modest hairstyles and clothing? Will they be looked over in their “career�, because people have 300 years of stereotypes whites may never “get over�?

Is it easier to want to be like Jay-Z , P Diddy, Shaq or Michael Vick? I have a college education and a successful career, but I sometimes want to “Be Like Mike�.

By David200

September 20, 2005 01:44 PM | Link to this

Ziza817: “Also let us not forget that even those students who do “succeedâ€? in the public school system are still far behind both their national and international peers in mathematics, science, economics, geography and other basic concepts that just a generation ago we were on par with.”

That brought a tear to my eye. That sounds so disturbing. Unfortunately for you, that’s just not true. Where did you get your information, though? Fox News? The only ones you’re seeing in the Asian and European schools are the absolute cream of the crop. There’s not an averge kid in the group… and they are NO BETTER than our top. Our top students compare quite favorably, thank you very much. In many cases much better. We produce engineers and scientists that are just as good or better. Unfortunately, a lot of our best and brightest want to be lawyers so we produce a lot more lawyers, but that’s a question of parental and societial influence and has nothing to do with the discussion. Question: why do you think all the students from China and Pakistan want to come to the USA to go to college? Answer: Because we have the best system of teaching in the world. Their form of schooling stinks. They have to sit in rows and never speak. They cannot question their instructors. If they don’t understand, tough. Their parents have to hire a special teacher for the evenings and weekends. Our kids get it during the day and go play with their IPODS in the evening. The fact is the great majority of students in the rest of the world do not get to go to a school to learn a profession. They have been “tracked” and assigned to a school to learn a trade only. Only in the USA do we believe EVERY person has the ability to succeed and be the best and brightest. Now, do all of our students become the best and brightest? Answer: no, just because you have a CHANCE to be the best and brightest, doesn’t mean you WILL be. We have to sift through a lot of kids to find those nuggets, but in the meantime we produce a lot of literate kids. I’m sure most Pakistani’s are only able to read the Koran because they don’t get the chance to get “educated.”

Go ahead and talk bad about the kid who was raised by a single mother on drugs. Go ahead and talk bad about the kid who was raised on the street and doesn’t know any better. I have, too, but I’ve never had kids talk worse to me than their parents. Q: Now, are they good students? Ans: No, but I’m not going to try and prevent them from getting an education, either. One of them might discover a way to cure cancer.

David200 climbing down from the soapbox.

By KMF

September 20, 2005 01:46 PM | Link to this

SWC, Let me address you. You are right about one thing - popular black culture is taking black people backwards. But let me make a point. Black people don’t control the media, which CREATES popular culture. We don’t OWN Cox, Turner, ABC, MTV, or even BET for that matter! There’s PLENTY of POSITIVE music artists out there, but they’re not given a chance to be heard. And do you know why???

Because SEX and VIOLENCE sells!

So, media pushes this garbage down our throats CONSTANTLY…radio & television. Not because that’s the only music our people makes, but that’s what they see as selling.

Don’t you think if all they played on the radio and on tv was positive, self-lifting music, you would see a totally different environment? But we don’t have LEADERS to stand up for that. Every time we do have someone make a stand, they’re sabotaged & assasinated by the media and FBI.

Now, if YOUR community was being affected like OURS currently is…the government, or federal watchdogs would FINE the media companies an enormous amount of money. But WE don’t even have the federal government to step in and control the media on our behalf.

And do you know why? Because our lives and future are not their concern or interest. $$$$$ is…

They push this culture on our people, which promotes thuggery, and gladly send us off to private prisons around the country. By doing so, these private prisons make money from the government, while also making money off of the labor of the prisoners. IT’S CALLED MODERN-DAY SLAVERY. They’re just being a little more discrete with it now.

If the government cared about the children of blacks, then why would they allow radio stations to play this sort of music during the day? We can boycott all day long, but if we don’t own the media outlets, then who’s going to really “LISTEN?”

By RF

September 20, 2005 01:47 PM | Link to this

Amazed—but why is it that Vick (good person I believe) and P-Diddy are the most known models? Why don’t we see Denzel and other successful, educated men standing up and speaking for the culture? We need them in the spotlight more often so my kids can see them and identify with them. They don’t look up to successful people like that because they “act white”. Why can’t we get past those labels? I didn’t mean to imply that there aren’t poor white role models, and I earnestly hope I’m not making this a racial discussion, but I am looking for a balance of role models, white, black, hispanic, and others to point out to my kids so that hopefully they can see that success in life isn’t about betraying your culture, but embracing a lifestyle based on education, learning, and work. And I cannot for the life of me figure out why poor kids only want to identify with the pop culture icons, be they white or black. I wish I knew a way to bridge that and help them understand that they can aspire to a different, successful lifestyle. It’s hard to do with pop culture being what it is now.

By Taxpayer

September 20, 2005 01:49 PM | Link to this

KMF, thank you for your honest and thoughtful response. Family does make all the difference in how far you can go in life. However, I think your final comments are the most compelling — DO SOMETHING TO HELP! For the past six years, I have volunteered as a tutor at various schools with various income-level students. Sometimes I only have an hour or maybe two to give, but that time makes a real difference in a kid’s life (not to mention the reward I get for interacting with these kids). If you can’t give time, then give a used book, buy some copy paper and drop it off at a school, leave your newspapers at the school donation bins, buy some extra school supplies at the dollar store — do what you can. I agree with an earlier poster that perhaps the problem in our schools is not so much racial segregation as class segregation. I never forget that I can make a difference if I want to. You will have to deal with kids from poor families and poor schools as they become adults. Do you want to support their education when they are kids, or do you want to support them through welfare and prisons when they become undereducated adults?

By KMF

September 20, 2005 01:57 PM | Link to this

Taxpayer, I commend you! If we could get more people involved…so much could change. The presidential candidates can raise so many millions to slander each other and push personal agendas, but what about funding our children? These professional sports teams and leagues, how about having a drive not just for Katrina victims, but for educational victims?

By KABA

September 20, 2005 01:59 PM | Link to this

KMF, you are right about the media. So why don’t parents take control and turn off the kids’ access to the harmful culture, and parent them in a positive way?

By Taxpayer

September 20, 2005 02:02 PM | Link to this

The real kicker is that we are already paying outrageous taxes in this country, not to mention the legalized theft of our pennies through sales taxes and misguided SPLOST campaigns BUT most of that money is not going for education. Right now, most of my tax dollars are on the way to Iraq or being poured into yet another road project. Wow — just what we need in this country and in Atlanta … more roads.

By Jake

September 20, 2005 02:09 PM | Link to this

McLiberty - The subject is the value of interdistrict integration of schools as a means of reducing the racial gap in academic accomplishment. It has absolutely nothing to do with your personal distaste for government schools, government employees, and government apologists. It appears that ‘wonderful private school’ didn’t teach you how to identify the subject in an article or blog. Time and again the consensus on this blog indicates educational accomplishment is greatest among the motivated children of involved parents. I don’t see how the public schools can be an effective means for the required social engineering. Don’t minority students in an interdistrict school integration program still go back to homes and neighborhoods that don’t value educational accomplishment?

By KMF

September 20, 2005 02:11 PM | Link to this

Kaba, It goes back to what I said earlier…a lot of parents are just not there. They’re not in the home, they’re working. So if your child has no supervision, they become vulnerable to what’s available. Whether that’s drugs, alcohol, sex, music, etc.

Taxpayer, lol..you’re right! We’re probably the most wasteful country in the world. I’m sure 3rd world countries look at us in bewilderment, wondering when the maddness will end. We spend money on everything but necessities. And it all falls on leadership. If we had elected leaders who cared about the country instead of lining their pockets, or establishing relationships with potential contributors, we might actually have something to be proud of. We have the potential…we’re just not living up to it.

By RF

September 20, 2005 02:13 PM | Link to this

KMF—you’re right, but think about this. Why do parents buy the CD’s and why do parents play the music in the car when kids are present? One way to alter that image is to quit buying the stuff and making the image popular. We stand against it in schools, but it’s hard when the parents support it. We need more people to take a stand in order to present a more correct image of African-American culture. I see the upwardly mobile in my neighborhood every day, and even they say they are having a hard time raising their kids to avoid the “ghetto” mentality. When enough people demand change, it will occur. We just have to quit backing down.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

September 20, 2005 02:48 PM | Link to this

RF - to answer you question about those “role models”.

It’s not the role models that are the problem. I do not believe in sheltering kids from the negativities in the world. I believe in addressing the reasons why they are negatives and not positives. It’s like saying “Say No to Drugs” , but that’s all you say about drugs. The first thing comes to mind is “WHY”.

Those kids need inspiration to achieve “their best”. Someone needs to “show” them, they do “Not Want to be Like Mike”, but “better” than Mike. I’m not talking about “Financially” being better or like “Mike”.

If you can’t sing, dance or play sports - they need to find something “they” are good at. If you don’t own a computer, how can you learn the in’s and out’s of a computer. If the only time you learn about “Law” is in juvenile court, why would you want to become a lawyer or judge. You grow up thinking that judges, police officers and lawyers only want to put you behind bars. There are many children who never see a doctors office, but seek medical attention at the county health departments. I’m sure that once they have waited in long lines to see a nurse or doctor at the facility, they do not hold a high opinion of the medical field.

It’s all in the perception and it starts early. Sometimes the perception will have to be changed outside of the home.

It all comes back too it takes a “Village”, but that village has become one “HUT”.

By SWC

September 20, 2005 02:53 PM | Link to this

KMF - Why is it that my kid doesn’t listen to Rap music? There are choices in programming, but it is the culture that determines what choices we make. You can’t blame everything on the networks, but if you want to pick one I’d start with BET.

RF - Let’s start by throwing out the term “African-American”. Blacks need to see themselves as Americans, not Africans. Also -I’m not sure how we are supposed to “quit backing down”.

By RF

September 20, 2005 03:13 PM | Link to this

But Amazed, don’t we need some more positives to point to? Teachers are trying to show kids how to act, but where’s the real-world example to back us up? I can teach them to be like Vick and better, but his life example and presence on TV has more power than anything I say in class. Part of the problem here is the mentality of poverty that says to the kids, by example, that noone is to be trusted and success is about money. That’s the sad reality of poverty, and it is and will be hard to change that reality.

By KMF

September 20, 2005 03:14 PM | Link to this

SWC - I completely agree with you. It starts in the home. But considering the many broken homes already established in our communities, how many children would be left to fend for themselves, if the networks AREN’T held responsible? Sometimes you have to help those who cannot help themselves. Why can’t we filter it before it hits the homes? Somehow, I find it disturbing that companies are allowed to profit off of the destruction of generations…

By RF

September 20, 2005 03:17 PM | Link to this

SWC- if enough Americans of whatever color skin demanded that a more balanced portrayal of all races be presented instead of the negatives we have discussed being shown, then the media and networks would do it. We complain about what BET shows, but are we making the complaint to the company? I think we could change the pop culture image if enough of us demanded the change. At this point, we’re not demanding change—we’re buying the CD’s and watching the videos and letting our children do the same.

By dgr

September 20, 2005 03:18 PM | Link to this

SWC,

I work in a suburban school, and I’m amazed as an African American (and I don’t think we should change that, it is who we are, when America starts providing equal treatment then I will drop the African and consider myself to be an American) that the majority of my white students are the ones that are buying the CD’s and emulating popular culture. You see now it is popular culture, WHY because it is now acceptable to mainstream (meaning white) media, people and businesses. Yet again, the mainstream has figured out a way to make money off of the degradation of African American people.

I agree with you, that African Americans are raping themselves - selling an image that I as cannot respect or relate to. I have two children, we listen to jazz or watch an Elmo DVD but when you see my children or myself you only see the generalization of African Americans and that is not fair. Judge me for who I am.

SWC, are you really sure that your child doesn’t listen to rap music? Most rappers admit now that their audiences are filled with young, white students. Within my school, most of the drug offenses are coming from our white students - so I’m going to ask – Do you really know your child, their friends, the music they listen to when their riding in the car or spending the night with a friend. Just as you or someone said that African American students are trying to be “ghetto� - white students are rapidly trying to be “ghetto� or “black� from the poor to the rich.

Who or what is culture? Look at MTV at any Super Sixteen piece of crap and you will see out of control spoiled rich white children shaking their bodies in vulgar fashion to the latest in musical “culture�. When it comes to BET your right we should boycott it left and right but if you want me to start it there, are you going to end it with the other 4 – 6 major networks?

By RF

September 20, 2005 03:32 PM | Link to this

dgr—I’ll give you that people often look at you in a stereotypical way. But can you really back up the argument about equal treatment?? Legally that just isn’t true. If it were the 1950’s or 60’s I’d probably agree with you. But look at what has happened since. Equal, even preferential opportunity is offered, and yet the stereotypes continue. Why is that? I wish I knew. God knows I’ve fought to keep the stereotypes from continuing, but they still exist. And you’re right, white kids act just as “ghetto” in many cases, but it seems fewer of them have to go home to that as a reality, so they tend to have better resources for coping with what is expected in the real world. What we need to do is make sure our poor minority communities get some focused attention and help the poor adjust their attitudes and experiences so they can have better lives. That will take more than money however.

By KMF

September 20, 2005 03:49 PM | Link to this

RF - You’re right, it’ll definitely take more than money to change these ingrained stereotypes. Not all things are overtly racist. It takes time for change. Let’s take a look at your standard business office. The higher you get into management, the less likely you are to see someone black. That’s partly because of stereotypes, social isolation, and comfort levels. People, by nature, tend to be more comfortable around people who look and behave as they do. In that sense, they tend to hire and promote people that would fit into their social circle. And most blacks have a hard time “selling” that potential. As stereotypes and cultural barriers are broken down, so are tendencies to discriminate in the workplace, based on being unfamiliar with a certain group of people.

It’s going to take time for blacks to rise to the same financial level as whites, especially without anyone giving a lending hand. Slavery was not that long ago, and segregation was legal only 40 yrs ago. We are still a young culture, still trying to recover from the psychological effects of a brutal beginning in this country. While on the other hand, how many white americans are beneficiaries of the slave trade?

How many have inherited money from our blood, sweat, and hard labor?

How many Fortune 500 companies have benefited from HUNDREDS of years of FREE LABOR? Imagine that. (Any idiot could become rich if he didn’t have any labor costs.)

How much land has been taken from blacks by force, intimidation, and trickery?

My parents’ generation were sharecropping, the 20th century version of indentured-servitude. They went to school when they weren’t working the fields. And I’m only 29 yrs old. That wasn’t long ago. We have a long way to go as a people, as a country. Reparations would be nice, but how about a sincere apology, and a plan to help better standards in our society?

By Dan

September 20, 2005 03:53 PM | Link to this

Why would you assume fewer white kids go home to the ghetto reality? There are far more poor whites than blacks, obvioulsly not by % but true all the same. The biggest racists are the ones making excuses for kids white or black or green saying lack of money hurts a childs education. You would think a child that does not have many extras in life would be more motivated to succeed. Money has zero, zilch, nada, nothing to do with it. Rather it’s the traits, habits and decision making capability that caused the poverty that is the problem.

By KABA

September 20, 2005 04:09 PM | Link to this

None of my ancestors were in America during periods of slavary. On both sides of my family my great and great-great gradparents escaped famine, indentured servitude and loss of lands in Ireland and others escaped from tyrrany in Germany. They came to America with nothing but hope for a new beginning. They worked and studied hard, and instilled that work ethic in their children. I got where I am today by their good examples and my own hard work. It takes each person taking responsibility for his or her own actions to make a life that is worthwhile. Those that cling to the notion that someone owes them an apology or reparations or whatever will never advance until they start moving themselves forward by studying and working hard, and making sure their family and community are working along with them.

By RF

September 20, 2005 04:11 PM | Link to this

KMF- we are indeed a young nation in many ways. I would agree we have a ways to go, but when I look at my children at home, I see the progress. They, thankfully, are another generation removed from the times of separation and inequality. Perhaps in the next few generations we’ll see some more qualitative changes made. Just so you know, I can pretty much truthfully say me and mine didn’t benefit from the slave trade. We were sharecropping with you until about the 1920’s. Our children are the only hope, and I’m panicking a bit because I see such chosen separation now that undermines a lot of what I teach them. How can they learn to look at everyone the same in a world that is presenting such different cultural images?

By dgr

September 20, 2005 04:23 PM | Link to this

The difference is KABA that your ancestors where white…. Mine could not hide the color of their skin. I dont want an apology, I want fair and equal treatment, I want the same opportunites - not handouts. In the 50’s and 60’s your Irish and German ancestors were able to eat and drink where ever they wanted. Think about it.

By KMF

September 20, 2005 04:24 PM | Link to this

Kaba - Clearly you don’t understand the term “white privilege.” I agree with you that hard work is the key to being successful. However, when your ancestors came to this country, they had opportunities that were denied to mine..even denied to my parents. So for you to assume that ONLY hard work helped them to succeed, and that it has nothing to do with skin-color, that’s being very naive. Success is due to opportunity and hard work. You can be the hardest working person in the world, but if nobody acknowledges that fact, and gives you an opportunity to move up, then how does that translate into success? I can promise you that NOBODY worked harder than those people in those fields…but how did that translate into success?

Sometimes people have the luxury of taking things for granted. The fact that you had parents and grand-parents who were successful - you are indeed lucky. When you consider that in the black community, you’re seeing probably only 2nd generation college graduates…if that. We don’t have that support system or roadmap on what it takes to be successful in this country. Like I said…it takes time, and we’re a young culure.

By KMF

September 20, 2005 04:35 PM | Link to this

RF - I definitely appreciate you trying to teach your children to see everyone as a human first. It’s definitely a challenge in this country because it’s so ingrained in society. From where people choose to live, to school zoning, social activities, etc. We need programs aimed at the youth to teach them an understanding…because that’s where it has to start. You can’t count on it in the homes, but it kids get to know different cultures while they’re young, they have a better understanding, and it makes for better, more open-minded adults.

By Jake

September 20, 2005 04:39 PM | Link to this

dgr and KMF - Why do Asian-American boat people, coming from backgrounds pretty close to share cropping, and with the added disadvantage of having English as a second language, outperform blacks, hispanics and whites in standardized tests? And do it without any reparation money and frequently in the same inner city schools?

By KMF

September 20, 2005 04:52 PM | Link to this

Jake, If you didn’t know…Chinese DID receive reparations, for the work they did on american railroads, and the concentration-like conditions put on them here in america during the World War.

And what’s your definition of “boat people?” People who arrived on boats, made a living as fisherman, etc?

And let me tell you the difference. You’re comparing someone who travels to a different country for a new start…to a group of people who are trying to succeed in the very same country that they were oppressed in? Where’s the comparison???

By dgr

September 20, 2005 04:53 PM | Link to this

I don’t know, they haven’t been systematically degraded, spit on, water hosed, lynched and told that their sub human since we were forced on the boat and stolen from our homes.

By KABA

September 20, 2005 04:53 PM | Link to this

I am not competing in a poor me contest, just saying that there was plenty of discrimination against the Irish and the Germans when they came to this country! They were destitute and hungry and had to make their own way far from home and family, with no privileges. They were shunned by ‘polite’ society, and communities from other European nations that felt superior to them. I feel your pain, and we all have ancestors that suffered.

As long as the Black community dwells on the sins of the past as a reason for their failures today, then they let the past hold them back, and they will have trouble moving forward. FYI, I know plenty of successful Black men and women in my profession, college educated with advanced degrees, and I work with them every day. They studied and worked hard and I respect them as equals. I am weary of the name calling here and generalizations about affluence and luck and privilege. And I am second generation college educated in my family if that means anything to anybody.

By B. Killebrew

September 20, 2005 04:58 PM | Link to this

David 200 (I think).

Right on. Most people do not know the true facts about international education comparisons.

By T. Drain

September 20, 2005 05:05 PM | Link to this

Jake- I’ll tell you why, because Asians have “a wicked, misguided obsession” about academic performance. It is known as the “Asian Syndrome.”

Teach them, you’ll see.

You do not want American kids to become this way. While the “Asian Syndrome” lends itself well to academic statistics and quantifiable evaluation systems, it is the death knell for innovation and creativity. Trust me on this. The U.S. would lose out big time (and lose its comparative advantage), if its education system or students became Asian-like.

Read David 200’s comments about the supreme advantages of the U.S. system.

By dgr

September 20, 2005 05:11 PM | Link to this

KABA, I’m not trying to compete either, I’ve worked hard, studied hard, I was adopted by a single mother, receive a full scholarship and I just want equal treatment for me and my children. I don’t think you understand “sufferedâ€? is not the word, I’m sorry that your ancestors suffered - we were systematically oppressed, tortured, murdered and until forty years ago not able to vote, I couldn’t eat with you or sit on the bus with you. 40 years ago – that’s not that long ago. Your ancestors were shunned we were murdered, I’m tired of people saying that we should forget or move on, no - we cannot continue to use it for our terrible behavior and degrading of ourselves but I feel that we have been taught to hate us for so long we haven’t quite got it together yet. At least acknowledge where we been and were we need to go.

By CRH

September 20, 2005 05:26 PM | Link to this

As far as the initial topic is concerned, it sounds like a terrible book. This situation has nothing to do with white or black. It has everything to do with poor/ignorant v. rich/enlightened. These two groups have kids that go to different schools and some people believe should be made to receive equal educations. Such an idea is ridiculous. The p/i are the ones who need help, and the r/e children are not going to provide it.

I come from a good home and just finished grad school. School was fun, but I did not learn much in class. I hung out with my friends, who also came from good homes. From my interaction with my parents and friends, I learned more than school could ever teach. The time I spent with people speaking proper English and having decent conversations taught me everything.

If you mix the p/i with the r/e, you will not get the interaction that it takes to help the p/i. Even further, the school as a whole will not experience any synergistic effects from the parents getting involved or any other efficient means of growth. I have friends that attended M2M schools, and yes, they are a little less racist than your average Atlanta citizen (both sides), but the situation was not a good one. These two groups do not have much to learn from each other.

The only way to help these people, these poor and ignorant children, is by causing them to interact less with other similar children and people, and causing them to interact more with enlightened individuals. I can’t think of a better way to do this than, on a large scale, creating smaller classrooms. Fewer students per teacher will increase exposure for these poor little children to an option other than acting like their ignorant parents. Right now, with 35 students per classroom, the students ignore the teacher and hang out with their friends, trying not to get yelled at by the teacher.

On a smaller scale, I complete agree with Taxpayer. Hopefully, I will one day have the time and energy to help out someone exactly like you are doing.

SWC, I like what you are saying, but the media affects both group’s children the same. Plus, I don’t even think the group we are concerned with even has cable television, unless they steal it.

By Jake

September 20, 2005 05:35 PM | Link to this

Boat people escaped the Communist and Khmer Rouge regimes in Vietnam and Cambodia in the mid-70’s before they were tortured or killed. But I don’t believe any of the kids taking the SAT or CRCT in Georgia the last few years have been beaten, hosed, or degraded by whitey. So again, why the difference in scores? It’s not the schools because they go to the same schools. It’s not the reparations to the Chinese because the recent emigrees, the ones still living in lower socioeconmic neighborhoods didn’t receive reparations. It’s because the Asians almost universally have a culture that values and encourages education. It’s because when the Asian kids come home from school, they study! Because their parents encourage and support and require that behavior. Unlike the hispanics, the parents strongly encourage learning English although the effects of English as a second language are seen in their scores (they outperform whites in math by a large margin, but don’t do as well in verbal). I don’t think whitey can socially engineer black cultural values though interdistrict integration or reparations. I don’t think blacks want whitey to change or mimic black culture. I think the success stories, like 100 black men, giving back to the community, and changing the values, are what will eventually close the racial gap in academic achievement.

By B. Killebrew

September 21, 2005 08:35 AM | Link to this

Kaba- There is no comparison between Africans in the U.S. and the German and Irish immigrants. The situation of Africans in America is unique when compared to the other “immigran” groups. What you have to remember is this: 1. The non-Africans came by choice. 2. They were not systematically by law discriminated against and oppressed. 3. They were white, allowing the 2nd generation to assimilate almost completely.

Remember, issues like this are not about some simple emotions or “how someone feels.”

I request that you take time and research how people of African descent (as a whole) fair in the United Kingdom, a place they immigrated to by choice. Many West Indians were invited in large numbers to come settle in the UK in the 50’s and 60’s. The situation (integration, assimilation, intermarriage, marginalization) with Africans in the UK (thought not ideal/perfect (nothing is!)…there are some problems!) is totally different from the situation of Africans in the U.S. One has to use a historical context to understand the situation of a people in a particular country. There are no major problems with Catholics and Protestants in the U.S. , but compare the situation to Northern Ireland. Muslims in actuality are not systematically discriminated against here, but compare the situation to France and Germany. People from the Indian subcontinent experience more prejudice and less integration that West Indians do in the United Kingdom, due to different historical incidents.

By T. Drain

September 21, 2005 08:38 AM | Link to this

Jake-

People in the U.S. would not want American students to become like Asian students. It would very bad for the U.S.

Trust me on this…I know from first-hand experience.

By T. Drain

September 21, 2005 08:39 AM | Link to this

Jake-

People in the U.S. would not want American students to become like Asian students. It would be very bad for the U.S.

Trust me on this…I know from first-hand experience.

By RF

September 21, 2005 08:59 AM | Link to this

B.Killebrew—but now, after at least two generations of growing equality, we still aren’t seeing enough assimilation in our country. I have to wonder if we aren’t still hanging on to anger and resentment (some of which is understandable I think) instead of learning to let go and be together. There are still groups on either side of the race issue that seem to want to fuel the fight and keep it going instead of looking at the positive changes that have occurred and build on those. I see my sons, who have friends of all racial backgrounds, and marvel at how racial differences haven’t been imprinted on them. But then I watch the news and so much racial polarization seems to be happening that it’s hard not to wonder why we’re still fighting these battles. I worry that by the time my sons are teenagers they too will fall into the abyss of misunderstanding that is still such a problem in this country. Is there any way in your opinion that we can keep this from happening to our children? We have worked tirelessly to make sure that we level the playing field, so to speak, in education. And yet we still have schools that are falling behind. Why? I want to help, like many do, but it’s hard to keep trying when we are battling such negativity and lack of understanding of the importance of education and knowledge. Too many of all ethnic groups seem to want to hang on to ignorance and racial division. What else can we do together to change this? It worries me a great deal.

By ziza817

September 21, 2005 10:12 AM | Link to this

RF- I am in fact a teacher, in fact have been in the classroom both in NYC and in GA for over 25 years. And come from a long line of educators and in fact know exactly of what I am speaking. Additionally, I had first hand experience at our schools failing children when I had to remove my own high acheiving son from an Atlanta public high school. When you have experienced the heartbreak of this personal experience, then we can talk. Unfortunately, in a forum such a this, we must speak in general terms. If you are a teacher making a difference, I applaud you. The facts remain however that our children and our students IN THE MAIN are not being adequately served.

David200 - My family is a family of immigrants. The reasons that people opt to come to this country are manifold and are best answered by them, not you making assumptions regarding educational purposes. Additionally, you are quite incorrect when you state that Americans are more advanced educationally than their peers. Again, you choose to discuss the elite. I am in no way discussing the elite. I am discussing THE MAJORITY. America has been and continues to be dumbed down. Period. Why no effective change can take place is illustrated right here on this board. Ego, false perceptions and wishes abound while the barge is sinking. God bless us all, but especially those that need it most. Until you’ve walked in their shoes, you know not from where they come.

By Mike

September 21, 2005 10:13 AM | Link to this

What is the most important factor in the education formula? It is not money, nor teachers, physical facilities or technology. It is parents or guardians. Parents (two of them) make the difference between a successful school or failing school. GOOD parents make their kids go to school, make them work hard in school & on their homework, make them behave, and make sure they have the mindset to succeed. You can have the greatest physical school in the world, the greatest teachers & the most up-to-date technology, but fill it with students without concerned parents and the school cannot perform adequately. Conversely, take a phyisically deteriorating school, poor teachers, & where the greatest technology is a sharpened #2 pencil, but put in students with concerned, caring and determined parents & the school will improve & succeed. Teachers feed off the community. If the community (parents)does not care, it is hard for the teachers to do their best. If the community is envolved, the teachers sense that and perform accordingly.

By RF

September 21, 2005 10:24 AM | Link to this

ziza—I know how you feel, believe me I do. But I hope you don’t take your attitude towards public education into your classroom. That kind of negativity definitely isn’t the way to improve the situation. We are an imperfect lot as teachers serving an imperfect world. Many try and many make a difference. How exactly are we not adequately serving the kids you speak of? I honestly want to know some specifics so I can do better in my own room and help others do the same. I can’t stand broad “the system isn’t doing it” kind of statements. Give me some specifics-I’d honestly love to hear your ideas as an educator.

By Karen Armsby

September 21, 2005 10:36 AM | Link to this

RF, I agree with you about the anger and resentment. Contempt is alive in the comments that dismiss our opinions by saying that we don’t care for the poor, that we are ignorant of the history of discrimination, that we are only privileged and weatlhy, and could never understand.

It’s too bad, because it takes all of us working together to solve the problem of successfully educating the poor so that all can be successful. I am not a teacher, but over the years I have helped in the schools, tutored illiterate adults, administered the GED, and volunteered my time over the years to many organizations that serve the poor. I do understand the consequences of a poor education.

We are anonymous here and it’s easy to take cheap shots to dismiss someone’s comments as frivolous because we whites do not or could never understand the plight of poor black children. It appears to me that the negative posters are not interested in working together toward a solution. Mutual respect will get the job done, not dismissive comments.

By RF

September 21, 2005 10:39 AM | Link to this

Mike, as simple as it is, that just isn’t happening these days. More people want to blame “the system” and point fingers rather than do something positive. Brace yourself—the critics will barbecue you for suggesting such a simple, logical fact.

By B. Killebrew

September 21, 2005 10:40 AM | Link to this

KMF- It was the Japanese-Americans placed in concentration camps during WWII, and yes they received reparations too.

RF- I totally understand your point and I actually agree with you. It is just that people espouse ideas without understanding the deep historical context. Without understanding where the pain, hatred, strife, and anger comes from (and where it perpuates), it will be hard to move forward. However, I am a optimist (we have to be). Despite all the negativity I see, I still see many things (big and small) that keep me hopeful (true interracial friendships; intermarriage, people taking a stand for another group when they don’t have to because it is the right thing to do; the progress we’ve made in the last 30-40 years, even since the early 90’s; etc.)

By Velatra

September 21, 2005 10:47 AM | Link to this

SWC, apparently, you fail to recognize the ignorance in your own post. African-Americans should refer themselves as such because their origin is Africa. Notice the word “American” in the name. That means that we are Americans whose origins are from Africa. The term “black” refers to a color, of which I am not. I am no darker than a paper bag.

Anwyay, this Western civilization that you say that African-Americans reject—shall I remind you that many of the things that you enjoy daily were invented by African-Americans? This is why we read and invest in our history because ignorant people like you don’t want us to know that we were and are so influential on American society. The next time you drive and stop at a traffic light, think of Garrett Morgan. The next time you see a truck that carries milk to the grocery stores, think of Frederick Jones. There are many more. I’ll bet your so-called history books did not include any of that information.

I want you to know that just because we take pride in some aspects of our culture, it does not mean that we are trying to be separatists. It just means that we are tired of our culture, history, and influence being ignored, minimized, or demonized. I grew up in a small middle-Georgia town and went to integrated schools. The only teacher that took the time to teach African-American culture was my seventh grade social studies teacher. In my eleventh grade year, I asked my WORLD history teacher if we could learn some things about African culture in her class, and she obliged by giving the few page numbers about Africa from the book. Of course, those pages showed the typical half-naked, bone-in-the-nose “natives”, but failed to include the Egyptian dynasties and other wonderful historic things about Africa. I had grown weary of hearing about Columbus and George Washington every year, and I wanted to learn more about Africans/African-Americans besides Martin L. King, Fredrick Douglass, and Harriet Tubman.

SWC, if you would step out of your shallow box of thought, you would realize that there are many African-Americans who do not blame whites for their problems and are trying to be productive citizens. Do you even have any African-American friends? Oh, I know. You’re probably one of those people who say, “Some of my best friends are black!”, but won’t even have them over to your house after sundown.

By the way, BET does not adequately reflect all of African-American culture, just like the Ku Klux Klan and the “Jeff Foxworthy” show does not reflect all of southern Caucasian thought and culture. Free your mind, and the rest will follow.

By Lisa

September 21, 2005 10:49 AM | Link to this

YOU KNOW I READ THAT ARTICLE AND THIS I KNOW I’VE ALWAYS KNEW!!IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY WE MUST STOP WITH THE WORD RIGOROUS GET THAT WORD OUT OF EDUCATION.THAT WORD ALONE MEAN:HARSHNESS STRICTNESS SEVERITY.HOW IN THE WORLD KIDS WHO COME FROM SCHOOL LIKE THIS WHO IMPLEMENT THIS WORD TO DESCRIBE THIS IS WHAT THERE SCHOOL REPRESENT.I REALIZE IT’S ALL IN THE WORD.FOR ATLANTA PUBLIC SCHOOL WHICH I HAVE KIDS THERE I SEE THE DIFFRENCE FROM THE SOUTHSIDE SCHOOL AND THE NORTHSIDE SCHOOL.THE NORTHSIDE IMPUT STRUCTURE AND CREATIVITY AND CONSTRUCTIVE THINKING.THEY ALSO HAVE ALL RACE OF KIDS WHO ATTEND THERE SCHOOL, HOWEVER ON THE SOUTHSIDE OF TOWN THE FIRST THING YOU WALK INTO IS A METAL DETECTORS YOU WALK INTO LOUDNESS FROM TEACHER AND THE PRINCIPAL ON HER WALKIE TALKIE NO ONE SPEAK TO YOU I A FRIENDLY HELLO THEY JUST LOOK AT YOU AND ASSUME OH SHE IS SOME CHILD MAMA!!INSTEAD OF MOTHER OR PARENT.I FAULT OUR PEOPLE WHO DON’T LOVE THE KIDS WHO THEY TEACH.I MEAN HOW DO YOU THINK KIDS WILL HAVE A CHANCE WHEN A LOT OF THEM IN ATLANTA PUBLIC SCHOOL COME FROM SINGLE PARENT HOME WHERE THERE IS A LACK OF EDUCATION OR IN A DEPRIVE ENVIROMENT,NOW DON’T GET ME WRONG IF YOU PUT YOUR KID IN A SCHOOL WHERE THEY ALLOW THE KIDS TO THINK OF THEMSELF AS KINGS AND QUEENS AND ALLOW CLUBS IN THE SCHOOL TO TEACH SOCIAL SKILLS AND ALLOW KIDS TO LEARN OF ALL DIFFRENT CULTURES THEY MIGHT HAVE A HUGE CHANCE.YOU KNOW ONNCE UPON A TIME I WENT TO A SCHOOL IN THE HEART OF DOWNTOWN THAT OUT SCORE KIDS IN BUCKHEAD THE SYSTEM WANTED TO NO WHAT WAS THE PRINCIPAL DOING.THE PRINCIPAL FIRST HAD LOVE FOR HER STUDENT SECOND IN HER MIND WE WHERE WINNER WHICH SHE IMPUT THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE SCHOOL THE JANITORS AND FOOD SERVICE WAS HIGHLY INVOVLED NO ONE WAS LOOK DOWN ON EVERYBODY WAS SOMEBODY IN HER EYE, WE HAD SCHOOL SPIRIT DAYS EVERY FRIDAY WE HAD CLUBS WE HAD SPELLING BEES WE HAD KING AND QUEEN CONTEST WE HAD PLAYS WE RECITE POEMS.THE SCHOOL WAS PAUL LAWRENCE DUNBAR IN THE HEART OF MECHANICSVILLE.YOU KNOW IT BRING TEARS TO MY EYES TO KNOW WHY THE SCHOOL SYSTEM IN ATLANTA PUBLIC SCHOOL IS FAILING BUT PEOPLE WHO ARE GETTING PAID HALF A MILLION DOLLAR DON’T.YOU MUST CONTINUE THE CREATIVE THINKING THROUGHOUT THE STUDENTS LIFE!! JUST DON’T STOP WHEN THEY GET IN MIDDLE SCHOOL.YOU LOOSE A LOT OF KIDS IN MIDDLE SCHOOL BECAUSE THE WORD RIGORUS.UNTIL DR.HALL AND MOST OF ALL THE PARENTS STAND TOGETHER AND STOP ALLOWING THESE EDUCATED MONSTER WHO DON’T CARE FOR YOUR KIDS RUN THE SCHOOL LIKE A PRISON.I SAY THIS AGAIN IF YOU LET THEM THEY WILL DO IT.PARENTS PLEASE I BEG YOU STAND UP AND STOP ALLOWING THIS TO HAPPEN.ON THE NORTHSIDE OF TOWN IT’S LOVE IT’S COMMUNITY AND IT’S WANTING THE BEST FOR STUDENTS NOT JUST RIGOROUS RIGOROUS RIGOROUS!!!!!WAKE UP PEOPLE.

By RF

September 21, 2005 10:49 AM | Link to this

Karen—it amazes me how most people would rather vent frustration and call names in a forum like this instead of discussing real solutions. Mutual respect has little to do with how we think in this world anymore. I don’t understand why, but that’s the way it is. I wonder if a time will come that people will let go of such bitterness and try to see something positive.

I think I read on another blog here that you are planning to read some of Ruby Payne’s books. I hope to hear some of your comments on them. I’ve read the one on poverty (I’ve suggested it also here once or twice), and am planning to read the one on learning. Hopefully more people within “the system” will take time to read many of the current writings on poverty and education. I think it would help a great deal.

By Karen Armsby

September 21, 2005 10:59 AM | Link to this

RF, You hit the nail on the head, they are venting, not blogging! The name calling and you can comment only when you have suffered the exact same fate as I have, is so divisive and non productive.

By RF

September 21, 2005 11:05 AM | Link to this

Lisa—schools become that way as a reflection of the community of violence in which they are located. Metal detectors unfortunately have to be there for a reason! Sometimes it’s hard to be friendly and caring when you have to worry daily about gang violence and drug sales in the halls. That’s no excuse, and certainly needs to be addressed. Just remember schools have to structure themselves according to what the community gives them. It’s not about rich or poor, northside or southside. It’s about communities that accept violence and anger versus those that try for something more.

By Karen Armsby

September 21, 2005 11:29 AM | Link to this

Velatra, What are your suggestions for improving the education for the poor?

By Opala

September 21, 2005 11:43 AM | Link to this

I would never send my child to a segregated school. The world is diverse. Segregated schools narrow perspective and that is never good.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

September 21, 2005 12:06 PM | Link to this

Non-Productive and Divisive: That’s funny.

Attitudes such as the above are part of the problem. If you don’t talk about/vent your feelings, we will never move forward as a society and not just African Americans.

The majority in this country does not want to discuss there past indiscretions. It’s easier to pretend it never happened and move on. Why do you think rape or molestation victims are advised/feel the need to seek therapy or have the need to confront their attackers?

For a group of people who love to “celebrate� their heritage, the only history they do not like to celebrate or discuss is the treatment of blacks in this country.

And if you didn’t know, blacks to not accept violence or anger as a way of life. That’s just another ingrained generalization about us.

As far as comparing “African Americans” to others who have decided to build a new life in this country, we are unique and no other group of individuals can be compared to us.

By Lisa

September 21, 2005 12:09 PM | Link to this

I do apologize for the caps but I’am tired of all the mess i see go on in the school system especially in Atlanta Public School.I want to say Parents please wake up and start loving yourself once you love yourself you can love your kids and respect your community.the school system is at fault just as well if you continue to not love the kids you teach why go to work.we continue to dum down our kids when our kids or highly gifted but we say they are slow or they to hyper and put them on pills when they or dyslexic.just ask Sean Combs oh yeah you my know him by Pdiddy.you see you have teachers who do assetments on kids and allow people to put them on medicine to slow down the gift.you know other people who know better put there kids in a school here in Atlanta call schinick school for that.it amaze me some of the most highest paid teacher can not determine this within our students especially in our boys.I say shame on you for helping to destroy the engineers the doctors the lawyers the carpenters the architect.shame on you for not looking at the kids you teach and see everyday not being yours! you should want for them what you want for your owns kids.I’am tired of seeing principal and teacher knowing there school is failing every year but still have a job, if the parent want go to you go to the parent meaning: have pta meeting in the community have social gathering in the community but no!!!I know of one school that did and that is Carson Middle he sat down with his staff and said this a mind is not only a terrible thing to waste so is our parents!!most school they want do that that’s asking for to much.and the sad part about it we sit back and do nothing!!! let’s get back to community and lets start reaching each one lets start loving one another we must help our young girls and boys by teaching truth in a loving way we must go into the homes and help our parents on parenting we must get mentors for our boys i cry everyday when i see another young black boy who haven’t seen a man be a man go to prison i cry when i see a young girl become pregnant because she want the love from her farther but thought she would get it from a boy.we better deal with these issue right now like Jessie Jackson said you can spend money educating for Penn State or State Pen.and trust me teachers you have stock in the prison system right now a lot of them don’t even no it but they do.WakeUpPeople!!!!

By Leia

September 21, 2005 12:22 PM | Link to this

Lisa - when you type in all caps, nobody reads your vent anyway! We all just skip over it and dismiss it as the rants of a crazy person.

And, you don’t help by using such poor spelling and grammar.

By Opala

September 21, 2005 12:36 PM | Link to this

Leia speak for yourself. Lisa’s writing may not bespeak much formal education, but the substance is positive. Why don’t we focus on unity and not disunity?

By RF

September 21, 2005 12:37 PM | Link to this

Amazed—will a time come when I(who try so hard to be fair, kind, and accepting of EVERYONE)don’t feel like somehow I deserve some sort of punishment for decisions my ancestors made?? Can we ever let go of the past and look forward? Why must I always feel like I’m evil or mean because I’m white?? I’m TRYING to let go of racial division and embrace change. Can African-Americans of this generation ever let go of the past and work with us here?? NO, I don’t want to talk about past indiscretions. I know what they were, and they were despicable. I didn’t do those things, nor would I condone them now. I also cannot pay for them either. All I can do is try to treat people fairly and live like you keep saying we should. But it’s hard when I keep hearing about how mean my ancestors might have been. Even the Romans had slaves, but Italians today have gotten over it!

Also, if you call yourself African-AMERICAN, then you are a part of this nation as a whole. We’re all allowed our uniqueness, but don’t say you can’t be compared to other groups. You are only AGAIN separating yourself. I can’t possibly treat you the same if you refuse to be an equal part of this nation. We all have suffered at some point in our history. The world is full of stories of conquering and forced slavery and denial of culture. Study your world history!! At some point we have to let go and go forward. We can’t do that if we hang onto the past. Please, please give those of us who are trying some credit and work WITH us!

By luvs2teach

September 21, 2005 12:39 PM | Link to this

RF and Karen - I have had the privilege of hearing Ruby Payne speak at the National Middle School Conference here in 2003. Her work is amazing and I opening - I highly recommend it for ANYONE cncerned with education in lower-socio-economic areas.

It is true that the majority of children in this country who live in poverty are white, although there is a greater percentage of African-American children in poverty - the poverty mentality knows no racial bounds.

History aside, it’s not as much about skin color as a mind set that accompanies generational poverty. It’s as different a way of looking at the world as a middle class mindset is to the wealthy. Black and white students coming from generational poverty probably have more in common than they do with a middle class member of their same race.

Not being African-American, I don’t want to discount the history, but truthfully, most Euro-Americans (a term I got from an African-American friend of mine - smiles) of my generation feel like the history is a wall that keeps us from achieving anything together. It’s not that we don’t see the problem; it’s that we can’t understand why we can’t just go forward in a positve light from here, and not get stuck in the past.

Don’t be offended; I’m trying to keep it real and open up a line of discussion.

By Lisa

September 21, 2005 12:41 PM | Link to this

Leia you must understand now is not the time for you ignorance please we are in a state of emergency!!! and you are wasting space just to tell me that!!! please sister don’t waste your time with nonsense!!! we have people dying from the lack of knowledge and you choose to comment on this matter in this manner. the only thing i can say to you is PEACE BE UNTO YOU SISTER.

By RF

September 21, 2005 12:52 PM | Link to this

luvs2teach— couldn’t have said it better myself! Until I read Dr. Payne I truly didn’t understand the different values those from generational poverty come to us with. It really opened my eyes about why kids act as they do, and how we need to work with them in our middle-class system. I wish I had known all of it sooner. It has made such a difference in how I teach.

Now if we could just all find a way to get along…

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

September 21, 2005 01:25 PM | Link to this

RF – I would suggest you speak to the “majority� you represent, because there are many of them who do not want to “work� with us and bring unity, like some blacks.

By the way, don’t take having a discussion about past indiscretions personally. I don’t have the mentality that all white people are bad. My family embraced interracial marriages in the early 60’s when it was still very dangerous. I would suggest you talk to someone who has lived the hurt, dealt with the challenges and have stories to tell about how the history of this country has harmed their lives.

My best friend is a wonderful white man and we have been best friends for 20 years. We discuss race daily and it works out very well. My friend has a scar from a beating in 1989 from a group of enlightened whites, because he had black friends, in a majority white school. I didn’t think anything like that was possible in 1989. People still make comments when we are at restaurants in 2005, sometimes by blacks, but mostly by whites. So they need to “get over� it as well.

As far as comparing “African Americans� to others, we are unique and our journey in this country has been different to say the least. I do consider myself to be different and I consider you to be different. We as human beings do many things exactly the same – but there are things that I will do differently because of my culture. I embrace it and my friend embraces those differences. I learn from our differences and I teach them to my child.

RF, you stated that “how can you treat me the same, if I have refused to be an equal part in this nation�. We are not separating ourselves from this Nation we are embracing our African culture that has been wiped clean. In addition, I was born equal to you and it can only be in your “eyes� that I am not equal. I see myself and other blacks as equal to everyone else in this country it’s how the others see us.

By luvs2teach

September 21, 2005 01:25 PM | Link to this

ooops - “eye” opening…lest the grammar and typo police nab me…

By KABA

September 21, 2005 01:57 PM | Link to this

Amazed, How would you fix the problem with educating poor children?

By RF

September 21, 2005 01:59 PM | Link to this

Amazed—I’m not trying to argue with you, and I hope you don’t see it that way. Please don’t take offense at what I say. I’m honestly trying to understand. I have many African-American friends (and we too treat each other equally). My best friend from high school (WAY too many years ago!!)is African-American, and most of our discussions about race focus on the fact that there is entirely too much anger and desire to hold onto past hurts. And I realize there are many injustices done in this country. Believe it or not, I too have been mistreated because I am white. I have known personally the hurt and frustration of being dealt with for my race, and I realize the unfairness of it. That is possible, and I have lived it. I know you may think that impossible, but I grew up in Southwest Atlanta and took quite a lot of crap for being “white” over the years.

I’m not trying to discredit anyone’s uniqueness, but is it really productive to let the actions of a few dictate the stereotypes we use? I’ve heard of and know of people who are ignorant and filled with preconceived notions about race, and I spend my life trying to make up for their foolishness. I’m simply trying to say that we must stop looking at the world with a view towards the past. Much, much has been accomplished, but instead of realizing how far we’ve come, you seem (and I may be misreading you) to be focusing too much on the past. As a society, we can’t make substantive progress until we quit using the past to justify our current anger. I’m going to be honest with you, as one educated person to another, that I’m tired of trying so hard to live right while I keep hearing about the injustices of my grandparents’ generation. Answer a question for me—do you see a time when we will be able to get along? Will my son’s generation suffer the same misunderstandings that my generation is struggling with? I can’t make reparations for the past. All I can do is try to live in the present, learning from the mistakes of the past. Why can’t we all do that? Please believe I have talked to and talk today to many who were alive in the days of segregation and I know how they feel. Do you know any positive way we can at least try to get beyond that together, those of us who recognize the past and want better for the future?

By t

September 21, 2005 02:34 PM | Link to this

I am African American and I want to say to everyone. Stop complaining and take care of business, stop blaming others for mishaps, just stop.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

September 21, 2005 03:13 PM | Link to this

RF –
My daughter is 10 years old and has several close white friends and friends of other cultures. I have always hoped that she would not have to worry about skin color or stereotypes. However, one day when she was in second grade, a little white girl, told her and I quote “all black people are stupid�. My daughter was shocked, because she is and has always been an honor student. She is also very arrogant and doesn’t take insults very well. So, my daughter wrote a note to the little girl that said, “_ is stupid, because she can’t read and she makes bad grades. I am black and I make good grades, now who is stupid�. The little girl gave the note to the teacher after another student saw it and laughed about it. My daughter was about to be punished for writing the note and saying negative things about another student. However, the little girl was very adamant about “all black’s being stupid�, because and I quote “my father and grand father said so�. The teacher, principle and counselor were very apologetic, because my daughter was not being racist, but pointing out that she was not stupid.

So, to answer your question, we have come along ways since slavery and the 60’s. However, there is still work to be done. I thank God that my daughter has excellent friends, with excellent parents who do not teach their children such rubbish.

KABA – to answer your question:

We spend so much time making judgments based upon a study, test scores, television or news reports – that we forget that these are kids and they can do anything that your child or my child can do. I’ll let you in on a little secret. The children in my family hate my Christmas presents, because they know it will only be educational. I tell them, that their parents/Santa can buy the toys. That’s not my job. They all know that if they have a problem with homework, I’m available to help them. I love all children and want only the best for them. I just wish more people would do the same.

By RF

September 21, 2005 03:22 PM | Link to this

Amazed—you hit the nail on the head there! Kids learn it at home don’t they? How ridiculous of that child—and yet I’ve heard basically that same situation in my own classroom a few times over the years. Maybe if we keep teaching our kids at home, they won’t grow up with as much struggle. We can hope, can’t we? I think more parents are trying, at least I hope so.

By SWC

September 21, 2005 03:30 PM | Link to this

Velatra - If you don’t study Western Civilization but only study “Black Studies” (note the use of the term “black” is not of my invention)then you are only hurting yourself. There is a lot more to American history and European history than who invented the milk truck.

The fact is that as soon as blacks began to assume positions of power in the universities, magazines, music business, et cetera they demanded separation - Separate dorms, separate studies, separate graduation ceremonies, separate record labels, separate magazines all for the ostensible goal of promoting “black pride” What good is pride if 50 years later you’re still poor and uneducated and seething with anger? (I refer to the collective “you” not you personally).

There has never been an attempt by the black leadership to integrate into society - there has been nothing but identity politics and endless grievances (and endless tax and corporate dollars thrown at the situation with nary a thank you).

I, “in my shallow box of thought” realize that there are SOME A.A.s who don’t blame whites and are trying to be productive citizens. But the black leadership does nothing BUT blame whites - Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Farakkan, the old and new “Black” Panthers (again not my name) all preach resentment, blame and anger, and reparations.

Instead of being offended by reality, why not seek out some new leaders who actually have some productive solutions to problems and serve as good role models instead of continuing to enable those who earn their keep as poverty pimps.

What has the “Rainbow Coaltion” done for you lately?

By B. Killebrew

September 21, 2005 03:42 PM | Link to this

RF- The tension today (between blacks and whites) really has nothing to do with the past anymore. No Gen-X (or younger) age African-American will state “your grandparents did such and such…”. The problems lies with the modern-day covert racism. I’d take overt racism any day…at least you know where they stand!

Also, you cannot compare the slavery of the Americas with slavery prior to 1450. The slavery of the Americas is unique because it was the first (and only) time in history where slaves where treated as chattel and became a major part of a very profitable trade! Africans were seen merely as products. Slavery prior to this time (for the most part) was based on the conquering of peoples or paying off debts. Roman/Greek slavery (for example) was not a systematice degradation and exploitation of an entire race of people.

You must understand this.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

September 21, 2005 04:01 PM | Link to this

SWC:

Black history is very important and should be taught thoroughly in schools across this country, but it has not.

Also, blacks are productive and have always been productive citizens. We were so productive that we did it for free and with chains.

You could have included some white politicians as bad influences and pimps as well - many do everything they can to keep this country as it was 40 years ago. I hate the term “Our Way of Life”, especially coming from a southern white and I was born and raised in the south. It sends chills up my spine, because I can’t get the picture of the segregationist out of my mind and I was born in the 70’s. I watch way too many documentaries.

———There has never been an attempt by the black leadership to integrate into society - there has been nothing but identity politics and endless grievances (and endless tax and corporate dollars thrown at the situation with nary a thank you). ——-

Not that is an uneducated statement at it’s best. Should my grandfather say thank you, for trying to apply for an electrical position in 1930 and again in 1957 - but spit on because he was black.

Blacks have always tried to be integrated into society. The next time someone comes for an interview at your place of employment, I hope you think about integration. Maybe then you will get a Thank You for your wasted tax and corporate dollars.

FYI.. the Republican party has an identify issue as well, but you don’t seem to notice. Since the people you pointed out identify with the Democratic party.

By RF

September 21, 2005 04:02 PM | Link to this

B- I’m soooo trying not to argue with you, but check your facts. Racism, where it exits, is overt. If a child says it’s because his father and grandfather said it, then that’s about as overt as it gets. They learn this stuff at home.

Also, where do you get off saying your slavery was different? Slavery is slavery dear, regardless of why it happens. Roman conquerors bought and sold enslaved people as they marched across Europe. They took over entire countries and enslaved every person within that country. How is that different? And who do you think sold Africans into slavery? They weren’t all forced—many, as I have read, were sold by their own for profit—or is that history book wrong too? Any slave was seen as a substandard life form. That’s the problem in this country right now—we keep having this curcuitous discussion about something we can’t change from the past, which we refuse to let go of, and use as a weapon to justify anger and resentment in the present. Have fun, and don’t bother to reply. I’m tired of being “one-upped” by someone who for all her mighty words won’t ever let us get past segregation, slavery, or any degradation of the past. You are my equal, but I refuse to get drawn into a pointless disagreement with you over the past. I’ll just keep teaching my sons that we’re all the same and maybe one day we will be. I’m proud of being Irish-American, but I’m not mad at the British government for illegally taking our land, forcing us into debt to pay rent,and then when we couldn’t, sending us here as indentured servants to live our lives. My grandparents said to let it go—maybe you should give it a try!

By RF

September 21, 2005 04:06 PM | Link to this

B- could you find an example to back you up from say, oh, 2000 on? I’m tired of hearing about the 1950’s. I know what happened then and I wasn’t around to change it. Please quit throwing it at us. It just doesn’t work as an example anymore!! Things are different in 2005!

By B. Killebrew

September 21, 2005 04:17 PM | Link to this

Whoa, RF-

Calm. OK… There is a difference between the “slaveries.” Please do not get frustrated or resentful because I am supporting my argument with actual historical facts. I am a teacher, at present a history teacher. I really do know what I am talking about. What I don’t think you understand is the significance in the difference between Ancient Civilization slavery and Modern Era slavery. The difference is fundamental-not in relation to “forgetting the past or chip on shoulder” mess that many Caucasians try to espouse. It’s fundamental because Modern Era slavery is the foundation for most of the race problems we have today (racial superiority, systematic discrimination, etc.). Roman/Greek slavery (for example) was not based on a widespread notion (with misguided justification)that one race was superior to another and it was not driven by economic/market forces.

Please be aware of this.

Also, I am a he not a she.

By B. Killebrew

September 21, 2005 04:25 PM | Link to this

Hello RF-

How are you? I thought I’d previously stated that the racial tensions of today have to do with modern-day covert racism that overt racism. Racism today is covert. You know…it is not prudent to be overtly racist in American society, but we all know it exists. Racists can be very savvy, very smart.

By KABA

September 21, 2005 04:32 PM | Link to this

The dictionary defines Slavery: the state of a person who is the chattel of another. Chattel is property and property changes hands by being bought and sold. Slavery has always meant the buying and selling of human chattel. Every early century marauding and invading horde enslaved their victims and sold them for profit. FYI slavery is alive and well today in the underworld and in barbaric regions of the world.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

September 21, 2005 04:38 PM | Link to this

RF -

2005 Racism:

The others “covert racism� is encounter in our daily lives, but if they are not documented by a television report, others assume we make them up.

By KMF

September 21, 2005 04:39 PM | Link to this

What we’re doing here in this discussion is proving the point that a people who hasn’t been discriminated against, cannot fully understand the effects of it. If you’re a part of the majority, wherever you go, how can you understand discrimination? Hopefully, you at least try to place yourself in someone else’s shoes, listen to what they’ve personally experienced and grown up dealing with, and then try to see how it may provide some basis for what blacks feel about the racial problems in this country. You would say to brush it off, but how easy is it to brush off something you have to deal with every day of your life, and knowing that your kids will likely deal with the same issues…if not a little more subtle?

By RF

September 21, 2005 04:56 PM | Link to this

BK- anecdotal examples don’t prove your point. If you find a bank offering higher rates, get a lawyer-that’s illegal! Quote the verified stats on that and I’ll buy it. Interest rates are based on credit score, not race. Not that some individuals wouldn’t try, but I really can’t see that being a corporate standard.

I’m not sure Ibelieve you are a history teacher. You honestly think the Roman conquerors, or any conquering people for that matter, didn’t think they were superior to those they conquered?? YOU need to check your facts on that one. And while not DRIVEN by economic forces, those forces were there, were they not? I’ll grant you that the recent history of African slavery makes it more prominent in our memories, but you simply cannot factually prove that it was any worse than any other enslaving of any group of people. Slavery is slavery, and it’s wrong!

Why are we debating this? Again, I don’t see the bearing on the present, but I realize I am at a disadvantage to understand that. I’ll ponder that fact tonight—you might have just taught me something BK. I’m trying, believe me, not to sound like every other Caucasian out there. Careful—you almost sounded racist there yourself.

Finally, I’m sure there are those who try to be covertly racist. But isn’t that kind of like the kid who believes there’s a monster under his bed? I’m not saying it doesn’t happen at all, but if it happens to you, I hope you’ll get a lawyer and sue. I would if I saw it happen!

You never answered my question earlier about the future. Is there ever going to be a time when we let the past go and work together as equals? Or do you want that really? It’s okay—I’m not trying to imply anything negative-I’m just curious. Will our children’s generation be able to get any further along than we have? You’re an African-American father and I’m Caucasian—does it really make a difference these days?

By KABA

September 21, 2005 04:56 PM | Link to this

KMF, What are your suggestions for fixing the school system so that poor children can achieve a good education?

By RF

September 21, 2005 04:59 PM | Link to this

KMF—read my posts from earlier!! I’m definitely not saying “brush it off”. I’m just trying to figure out when and how we can get past all the anger and resentment and get along like so many dreamed of in the past. I’m trying, but I sense a lot of unnecessary resentment as a caucasian person who’s just trying to grow and get over the past.

By KMF

September 21, 2005 05:11 PM | Link to this

I don’t think that there’s a simple fix. You have to get the parents more involved, but for the kids who’s parents just don’t care or don’t have time, then we need tutors or other parents to assist. Smaller classrooms would definitely help, along with effective teachers. I commend all teachers, but we definitely have to have monitors or some methods change in the classroom. These standardized tests prove it. We can’t blame the teachers, but it’s the learning system. Every child doesn’t learn the same. I think more field trips, real world experiences, would help. Many kids have never had a chance to travel anywhere, so that would open their eyes to new possibilities. Professional mentors - I think that kids should be exposed to different careers early, along with what’s needed to obtain those goals. And to interact with someone who’s already achieved it let’s them know it’s possible. Positive reinforcement - There are so many kids who are tested into “slower” classes, so then they start believing this. Different methods of teaching could provide them the encouragement and confidence to strive for more, and have more confidence. FUNDING - why would anyone cutback on educational spending?? All programs are needed..from art to music to athletics, to make these kids more well-rounded and knowledgeable.

But those are just a few suggestions. I’ve heard plenty that I agree with. Its just a matter of going from discussions to action. Now how do we do that?

By Velatra

September 22, 2005 08:36 AM | Link to this

SWC, Your responses continue to amuse me. Apparently, the cataracts of asininity continue to blind your judgement (pretty good command of the English for a “black” person, don’t you think?). The post that you responded to had nothing to do with “milk truck[s]”. I was simply trying to get you to understand that African-Americans have made many contributions—significant and trivial—to American culture. By the way, Fredrick Jones did not invent the milk truck. He invented the refrigeration system that is used in milk trucks and other types of trucks.

Anyway, you said that “Black” leaders preach separation. What a grand generalization you made. Did the late Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King’s 1963 “I Have A Dream” speech totally escape your memory? You know that one where he envisioned all races coming together in unity? For the record, Rev. Jesse Jackson and Rev. Al Sharpton do not preach separatism. They do preach equality and pride in one’s self.

I would like for you to know that I am one who applauded Bill Cosby when he made comments about certain African-Americans who blame others for their downfalls and who fail to make wise decisions concerning their children’s education. He was unequivocally correct. As a 4th grade teacher (who has an advanced degree), I try to instill in my students (my class is 100% African-American) that there are no excuses for them not to be able to succeed, no matter what their backgrounds are, especially in today’s times. I do this by exposing them to the lives of people who have succeeded when the odds were stacked heavily against them. By doing this, I try to show my students that life is mostly about choices, as well as determination and hope. Environment and family situations may hamper, but do not hinder. In other words, some children may have to struggle a little more than others due to difficult circumstances, but, ultimately, their attitude determines their altitude. My own mother, a retired teacher, is one such example.

I find it amazing that you failed to answer one of my questions, so I’ll repeat it. Do you even have any “Black” friends?

Finally, the “Rainbow Coalition” has done far more for me than the Ku Klux Klan, Neo-Nazis, Skinheads, etc. have done for you.

By Velatra

September 22, 2005 09:03 AM | Link to this

Karen Armsby,

One suggestion for improving the education of the poor is stop cutting the funds that these children need to get the resources that they need. In some metro-Atlanta counties, poorer school districts do not even have enough books, unlike their more-well-to-do counterparts in other school districts.

Another suggestion is to decrease the teacher-student ratio in classes. How can a teacher effectively teach 32 students—with no para or team-teacher?

I know that this next “suggestion” is unrealistic and may never happen, but there should be laws that would hold parents more accountable for their children’s education. In a perfect world, parents would be required to spend at least two hours a month in their children’s classrooms/schools. I believe that when children see that their parents are concerned about their education, then they will be. So much for dreaming.

Anyway, back to the real world. Karen, I am a teacher who is trying desparately to make a difference in the lives of her students. I am the teacher who has extremely high standards for her students (to which some students consider me to be “mean”) and who will cheer the loudest at their games and attend their birthday parties when invited. Parents respect me, and rising 4th grade parents often request their kids to be in my class. I “keep it real” with my parents and students, and have even told some parents that they are hurting their children by not having high standards for them.

I hope that I answered your question, Karen. I am curious, though. What made you ask ME for my suggestions?

By Borus

September 22, 2005 10:49 AM | Link to this

I’m a high school teacher in a public school. I just got off the phone with a parent whose child is failing my class—one he needs to graduate.

After explaining the need for the student to pass, this is what the parent said:

“I don’t really care. He’s his own man now. I got a new baby now and if he can’t get his ** together and get out of high school I don’t care. Don’t call me again.”

CLICK.

I think that makes my point for me.

By B. Killebrew

September 22, 2005 11:28 AM | Link to this

RF- I thought I mentioned to you in an earlier blog comment that I am an optimist and I do have hope for the future. Here it is, I found it…

(earlier written in response to RF-)

“However, I am a optimist (we have to be). Despite all the negativity I see, I still see many things (big and small) that keep me hopeful (true interracial friendships; intermarriage, people taking a stand for another group when they don’t have to because it is the right thing to do; the progress we’ve made in the last 30-40 years, even since the early 90’s; etc.).”

Also, Amazed(Independendent Woman), … you explained covert racism very well.

Also, RF- Why should we have to spend our own hard-earned money and time for a lawyer for each instance we experience covert racism?

Also, RF- I’m not a father.

By RF

September 22, 2005 11:51 AM | Link to this

So sorry for the mistakes…got your comments and Amazed mixed up a couple of times.

Still my question remains—do you ever see a time when we will be able to let go of the anger that still smolders within the African-American community and just get along? I know the world isn’t perfect and probably never will be. I’m curious what you see as the future. Will we grow closer together or further apart considering the current issues? If covert racism is as bad as you and Amazed are portraying it, are we moving forward or backward? Do we really want to move forward and get along? I’m really trying to learn here, so let me know.

By SWC

September 22, 2005 02:41 PM | Link to this

Valetra - Its great that you insist that your students not use excuses and that your realized that life is about choices. The problem is that your thinking is very narrow. If you decide that there is one exception to a general statement then you think that this makes the entire statement untrue, and then go to great effort to point out some meaningless bit of information to try to “catch me” in some error. I do not think it should be necessary to explain that there are exceptions to everything - this is just so obvious. You quibble over the smallest detail while missing the big picture. I really don’t care who invented the refrigeration system for trucks. I’m glad that you find this a source of pride, but the fact is that that snippet of information hardly rises to what should be core knowledge of history. Universities like Stanford eliminated their Western Civilization Survey Courses because of pressure put on them by Leftists and radicals. This is an indisputable fact, and it has resulted in generations of students (and adults) who are woefully ignorant about history. You mention MLK as an exception to the black separatist mentality that so many black leaders promote. As he has been dead since the Sixties I did not include him as I was referring to people who are actual alive today. The “new” black leaders do not follow MLKs example, where CHARACTER not skin color was supposed to count. The Revs Jackson and Sharpton do not preach responsiblity and personal choice, they preach “blame it on whitey”. That is all they do. Do you think that that is a good way to lead? Where is the next MLK?

Now, I’m amazed that you find it “amazing” that I didn’t answer your foolish question about whether I have any black friends. I’ll tell you this much - I worked in the music biz for 18 years in NYC. I have worked with many blacks, directly and indirectly. As is true of any group, some were great,and some weren’t. Too many were stuck in afro-centric thinking and the politics of resentment. I had one secretary who looked at me like I was asking her to pick cotton everytime I asked her to do anything. She was eventually fired for using a shopping bag as a filing cabinet. I had another secretary who was just the opposite and was absolutely lovely. The president of my company at one time was a very sophisticated, educated black man, who I had tremendous respect for, although I did find his proclivity to promote black employees straight from the mailroom to the top a bit excessive in the affirmative action department. I have many black neighbors. I like most of them, but quite frankly can’t stand some others who manage to singlehandedly personify every negative stereotype about boyz from the hood, including but not limited to never mowing their lawn and thinking that plastic garbage bags make handsome window treatments. And no, my white neighbors do behave that way.

Now your line about the Ku Klux Klan is just the height of silliness. The only living Klan member that I know of is Senator Robert Byrd, Democrat of West Virginia. The white population is not LED by Klanners, Neo-Nazis or Skinheads - these are fringe groups and represent an infinitesimal percentage of the white population. They are not representative of whites in general and are certainly not our leaders. They get no airplay, no tv time, they have no credibility. Jesse and Al and the followers of Elijah Mohammed get considerable airtime from the willing media and never miss a photo op, or any opportunity to stir up the masses (such as Hurricane Katrina- the latest example of white racism). If you honestly think that whites are represented by the Klan then you just prove my point that the black leadership spends most of its energy and resources spreading the politics of paranoia.

By KMF

September 22, 2005 03:03 PM | Link to this

Do you realize why blacks have no real leaders anymore? Because they don’t live too long…

Rev. Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Minister Farrakhan…they never really had the full backing of the black community. Those that do, or those that present a threat to make a change, are quickly discredited, killed, or jailed. Thus, we now have a lack of true leadership…

By KMF

September 22, 2005 03:32 PM | Link to this

And we really shouldn’t need one if everything was really even across the board. I thought that was the President’s job, to bring the country together, and lead towards uniting under one national community…leaving no group, economic or ethnic, feeling deprived of their rights or opportunities.

By SWC

September 22, 2005 03:32 PM | Link to this

KMF - Apparently the media has not gotten the message that Jesse and Al and Farrakhan don’t represent you. Who does represent you?

And who is doing all this killing and jailing of potential leaders?? Who is doing what to whom? (Not including the assasinated MLK of course.

By RF

September 22, 2005 03:40 PM | Link to this

SWC—it’s a dead-end argument. There is anger, resentment (for what I don’t know), and general blaming for things thatI honestly believe people don’t want to end. I haven’t gotten an answer yet to the questions I asked and honestly wanted answers to so I could understand. I get the distinct impression that many just want to point fingers and keep the animosity going. The future and progress aren’t nearly as important as keeping the resentment up so that nothing is really accomplished.

By RF

September 22, 2005 03:47 PM | Link to this

KMF—what EXACTLY, isn’t fair? I hear that said a lot, but nothing specific, WITH FACTS, is ever mentioned. Give me specific factual inequities and I’ll believe them. I’m tired of hearing how we’re being so “unfair” when noone can prove what is so unfair.

By KMF

September 22, 2005 04:01 PM | Link to this

SWC - I mean that historically, our leaders have been destroyed before reaching their full potential. MLK, Malcolm X, Huey Newton & Geronimo Pratt included. Groups like the Black Panthers were formed in order to protect and feed the community. And “Yes” they demanded their rights. But today, there’s not one person who can represent a whole culture. And that’s because of economics and different views from the 50’s & 60’s.

You have some blacks who’ve become successful and think that the system is fine…since they became successful, everyone should no doubt be capable of the same. But you can’t compare one person’s journey through life with another’s. They live in middle to upper-class homes, and view poorer people as beneath them. They forget about the people who are still struggling, and take on different views from their parents, when the community looked out for one another.

Then you have those who are so frustrated by society and feel like they’ve been given the short end of the stick their entire lives. Those form more of a radical opinion…not without some merit, but still are a little swayed because of their circumstances.

Then you have the bible-toters. Nothing wrong with being religious, but to vote a politician in office for religious reasons, and not based on their agenda…is beyond my comprehension. But that’s a percentage of the community.

Also, there’s a good percentage of the community that’s not even counted. Those are the young people that are either imprisoned, or have criminal records. They’re considered the outcasts of american society, and aren’t allowed to vote. But they still have to figure a way to feed their kids and take care of their families…which is VERY hard to do when you have a record. So in many cases, they end up resorting to what landed them in prison in the first place, because it’s so diffult to find “decent” work to support a family. Thus, the cycle continues…single parent homes, children being raised without a father, mother, or brother.

Then you have your middle of the road group. The people working good jobs, and raising their families, with a few setbacks here and there…but are considered middle class. From barbers to electricians to teachers, etc.

Now, those a very different segments of our culture. It’s hard to represent such a diverse group…that’s why you don’t see one black person who has everyone’s support. We have very different economic, political, legal, social, and religious issues that would have to be addressed.

By David200

September 22, 2005 04:07 PM | Link to this

Guys, I’m not black so I can’t put myself in your position, but from my reading of late history, the KKK, nor racist cops and racist governments could not beat the blacks down. I’m firmly convinced the civil rights era would have happened without MLK. Circumstances make the “man,” “men” don’t make the circumstances. There were a lot of quality black leaders. The time had come for equality. When MLK died, the dream continued. When the Supreme’s forced the white community to accept black kids in the same schools, black kids succeeded just the same as the white kids and under far more stress. So what happened then? I don’t know, but my guess is welfare. If I remember correctly, to get welfare, the mother had to claim the father abandoned her and the children. Now, one hundred years of slavery and one hundred years of segregation couldn’t destroy the faith and strength of the black family, but it looks to me like Lindon Johnson’s War on Poverty did it in less than a generation. Kids need mothers AND fathers, and welfare caused the father to leave the family. A government attempt to help the black family may have been the worst thing done. Just my take on things.

ps: I’m a Democrat

By KMF

September 22, 2005 04:11 PM | Link to this

RF - It’s impossible for me to explain to you the difference in treatment between whites and blacks in this country. I’ve realized in my 29 yrs that the only way that a person can understand, is to experience it for themselves. It’s like you trying to explain a bad day at work. You can tell your story, but no one really understands what you were feeling during that experience.

I would never say that the entire country or even majority of the country is racist. But there are definitely racial undertones in many segments of our society…period. You WOULDN’T notice what doesn’t affect you personally.

Do you ever try to imagine how a homeless person feels when someone frowns or calls the police on him when he asks for change? You really don’t think about it. He just seems an annoyance to you at the time. But for him, that hunger is real. So is racism to blacks! You’re just lucky enough not to be affected by it…

I’m not a radical, racist, and I’m definitely not angry. I love discussions like this and opening lines of communication. I just wish that we could trade places so that you can understand how real it is.

By KMF

September 22, 2005 04:28 PM | Link to this

David200 - Welfare contributed some. But anyone who would let welfare destroy their family was a weak-link in the community anyway. And they can be found in any community.

What destroyed us in the 80’s was crack…plain and simple. That was urban, chemical warfare. It’s comparable to putting small-pox in the blankets of Native Americans. You’re placing a highly addictive drug in poor communities…all for a very cheap high; an escape from reality. Now they had a WONDERFUL selling point there!

Now, let me say that blacks didn’t bring drugs into our communities…but we did wind up selling it to our own people. We ate the poisoned apple, and all of us are paying for it now.

Crack has led to so many broken homes, murders, drug overdoses, imprisonments…it’s the worse thing to happen to blacks since slavery.

It had little kids thinking it was the quick way out of the ghetto, but ended up being the quickest way to the cemetary and jail. But how do you stop the cycle?? Who is a little kid going to listen to: his mother who works 12 hr days and catches the bus? Or, the 16 yr old driving the Cadillac Escalade who dropped out of school 2 years ago?

And prison is not the answer! This just breaks up the family even more. Murder, rape, or assault with a deadly weapon is one thing…but when kids are given 5-10 yrs for possession…there’s no coming back from that mistake.

There has to be some intervention program, teaching them job skills, to give them hope for a future, without turning back to the streets…

And that’s not just our problem, it’s become america’s problem, because meth is becoming the new crack. And you’re gonna have the 80’s all over again if this country doesn’t control these drug problems. Prison isn’t always the answer…

By RF

September 22, 2005 04:59 PM | Link to this

KMF—that was actually a pretty good explanation—I’ll accept that I can’t know how it feels. Just please understand that there is frustration on the “other side of the fence” so to speak, because often times we feel stereotyped and judged because of the actions of some of our own. And boy do we have some weirdos still running around loose!!

You know, I hadn’t thought about how disastrous crack has been. It has devastated a good part of all of our cultures hasn’t it?? I’m raising my two nephews now because of how it ruined my sister. She was murdered over money and crack. And that’s just one example. It really has decimated black culture in many ways, hasn’t it?

I think I kind of understand where much of the angst I sense in African-Americans comes from. I suppose I’d feel the same way if I saw so many brought down by drugs and crime and all that goes with it. It is a shame, it’s depressing, and really makes one wonder what the future holds.

We’ll continue tomorrow. It’s 5:00 and I have to get home. Thanks for the information—I think I understand some things a little better. I look forward to discussing this some more.

By Lee

September 23, 2005 09:01 AM | Link to this

Somebody explain this to me,

My oldest child went to a public high school which was about 25% minority. On Honors Awards day, the vast majority of kids getting academic awards were white. All the black kids were up in the stands.

Same thing at graduation. The Honors graduates were predominately white, not consistent with the racial makeup of the school.

Why is that? Same school. Same community. Same teachers. Same textbooks.

By dan

September 23, 2005 09:30 AM | Link to this

Velveeta calm down and lose the attitude.I for one do not have any African American friends because I do not know any African Americans.I do have some black friends and get along with them quite well because they do not try and hold me and the entire white race responsible for their shortcomings.They believe in taking responsibilities for their own life and do not look to Jesse and Al for their salvation.

By SWC

September 23, 2005 09:37 AM | Link to this

KMF and RF and any interested parties- go to the webpage I’ve cited below to get some of the truth for once. This webpage is from David Horowitz, a former Sixties Radical who worked for the Black Panthers until a friend of his was murdered by them. He is a living eye-witness to that movement. This article is about MLK, Malcom X and Elijah Mohammed. You can also go to frontpagemag.com and do a search of their web pages under “Huey Newton”, another on “Geronimo Pratt” and get the truth about them too. (Newton was a Murderer, armed-robber,drug pusher, pimp, durg addict, and all around thug who used his position of power, used and murdered his own people, including children, to enrich and empower himself).

The mere fact that, with the lone exception of MLK, KMF can’t come up with a single non-controversial, upstanding citizen to cite as a leader,perfectly illustrates the problem. Blacks are not going to advance in society as long as they buy into the constant undercurrent of paranoid blame and choose thugs as role models. I get the sense that KMF is a really good person, but he needs to get an antidote to the hateful, completely counterproductive propaganda.

One other thing - the crack epidemic was not a plot by white people to enslave blacks as implied by KMF, and the fact is that prior to crack there was heroin - the drug of choice in Harlem during the sixties. See the great book “Manchild in the Promised Land” by Claude Brown. Meth is definitely a huge threat, but it woun’t damage white kids in the epidemic fashion that drugs damage blacks because there is a different family structure. Drugs are evil - we can agree on that.

This article is a good start -You’ll have to type in the exact URL to your address bar - it won’t work just to click on it:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=1155

By dan

September 23, 2005 09:41 AM | Link to this

Lisa it is Diddy not P diddy get it right. Your blatant racism is showing

By Velatra

September 23, 2005 09:51 AM | Link to this

SWC,

Once again, you seem to miss the point. The “milk truck” reference was just what it was—a miniscule reference to the many contributions that African-Americans have made to the United States’ way of life. To keep referring to it is very trivial. You’re the one who brings it up repeatedly. I was just trying to enlighten you.

I’m glad that you thought that my “line” about the KKK was silly because your “line” about the Rainbow Coalition was just as silly. My comment served its purpose. I certainly do not believe that the KKK represents all of the “White” America, but, apparently, you still believe that the African-American men that you have such contempt for represent all “Blacks”. Reread your own posts. Also, you seem to forget that Jesse Jackson was a close ally with our former president Bill Clinton and was there for him during his time of “scandal” with Monica Lewinsky. You need to get your lies straight. Revs. Jackson and Sharpton do not preach “blame whitey”, but they do preach equal rights and pride for ALL people.

It seems that whenever African-Americans expose the inequalities and unfair treatment that exist, they are deemed “separatists” or they are being “un-American”. The only one that I agree with you as being separatist is the late Elijah Muhammed. He was the only one that preached that “whites are devils”. But, as I said before, he did not represent all African-Americans. I certainly do not agree with his thoughts. You, like some other posters, seem to want African-Americans to sit back and accept unfair treatment and the humiliation of being looked at as inferior. Try explaining to me why on this past Sunday at a popular ice cream shop in Jackson, GA my family and I were the only African-Americans in line and the two “White”-teenaged employees basically ignored us and served “White” customers who got in line AFTER we’d been there for a while. There was only one customer (who was also “White”) before us, and the two girls ignored us and served the others. No, I did not do the stereotypical neck-rolling and cursing, but I did let them know that we were first and I did not appreciate how we were treated. We left and went to another shop. Later, I called the manager, and at least he was apologetic. This is 2005, not 1905. Were we supposed to go around to the back? So, unfairness does not exist, huh? Was I supposed to just accept this and move on? Hahahaha! As my husband says, “You done bumped yo’ head!”

Anyway, you gave a nice speech about the “Blacks” that you worked with and who live in your neighborhood. You still did not answer my question. I asked a simple question. You gave a complex answer. So, I guess it is safe to assume that your answer is, “No.”

By the way, I absolutely adore my Caucasian pastor and his family at our church where all of the congregants are African-American. (No, he does not “hoot and holler” as preaches the Word.) The same goes for my Caucasian principal. She thinks that it is important for her African-American students to be exposed to their history. People like nationally-known Pastors John Hagee, Joel Osteen, Joyce Myers, and our former presidents Clinton and Carter are people who I respect and admire because I believe that they see PEOPLE when they see African-Americans. You, based on your posts, only see us as complaining, loud-talking,lazy opportunists who would be better off back in slavery where we basically had no choice but to accept degradation. Thanks, SWC, and God bless you!

One last thought, American history would be incomplete with “Black” history. Shall I remind you that America was built on the backs, sweat, and tears of African slaves? Oh, you’re one of the ones who writes the history book that include one paragraph about slavery. Actually, since the oldest known human fossil was found in Africa, we are ALL African-Americans (unless, that is, you came from Mars)! Take a deep breath, and get over yourself, BROTHER or SISTER. Hahahaha!

By D

September 23, 2005 09:53 AM | Link to this

SWC: Although it’s off subject, it’s great to see someonelse who read Manchild in the Promised Land. I read it in High School (even though it was on the “banned Books” list) and have kept my battered copy in my library ever since.

By Velatra

September 23, 2005 09:57 AM | Link to this

Dung (I mean, dan), (I only did this because you did not respect the name. It’s “Velatra”, not some fake cheese.”

I’m as cool as a cucumber in a refrigerator. So, you calm down. Hahaha!

Anyway, I don’t look to Jesse or Al or any man—“Black” or “White” as my salvation. I look to JESUS. I suggest that you do the same.

By RF

September 23, 2005 10:01 AM | Link to this

SWC—actually, from what I’ve seen as a teacher, it’s the white kids who are becoming meth addicts. I have yet to see one African-American child on it. Now before you jump, I realize one example of anecdotal evidence doesn’t prove a point, but with about 1200 kids in my school, I think I can speak with some small degree of accuracy on this. We’re about 55-45% white/black, with a small percentage of Asian, Hispanic, or other thrown in (less than 5% total). Meth has become increasingly popular among the wealthy white kids looking for a better high than marijuana or alcohol. It’s a popular party drug among them now. It’s also costlier than weed, so the poorer folk will likely remain on crack or alcohol.

I also see something else to think about. Regardless of opinion about past leaders, you have to look at the current situation—it’s hard as a teacher to help kids see any good role models in society when they see the dropouts riding around in Caddies and throwing money around. You have to realize that poverty creates a different mentality that is hard to break. You can’t make a kid believe in a better life “for the future” when he lives in a day to day struggle to eat and have clothes. Money becomes the big need for these folks, and selling drugs becomes one short-term answer. I’m not blaming anyone except the individuals for choices made, but you should keep in mind that often those living in poverty, regardless of race, make some bad choices because of their limited resources. It’s a vicious cycle that repeats through generations.

By Velatra

September 23, 2005 10:21 AM | Link to this

SWC,

You can’t think of any “Black” leaders except MLK that do not “preach” separatism. So, I’ll help you out. Since you’re good at researching, try researching these:

Colin Powell Condoleeza Rice Rev. Joseph Lowery Rep. Maxine Waters Rep. Barack Obama Former Atlanta mayor, Andrew Young Mayor Shirley Franklin Rep. Melvin Watt Rep. Jesse Jackson, Jr. (yes, THE Jesse’s son) Former Rep. Denise Majette Rep. Cynthia McKinney Kweisi Mfume Rep. Floyd Flakes Former Virginia governor, Douglas Wilder and so on…

Did that help you any? I hope so, sweetie.

By RF

September 23, 2005 10:23 AM | Link to this

Velatra—I’m from Jackson. Do you teach there? Small world, but getting bigger around Jackson these days. Have you noticed how many new subdivisions are going up?

By Velatra

September 23, 2005 10:38 AM | Link to this

dan,

I forgot to ask: What in my posts implied that I had an attitude? I’m curious because I want to make sure that I keep my own ignorance level to a minimum.

By Velatra

September 23, 2005 10:46 AM | Link to this

No, RF. My family and I went to the Indian Springs Park and had a picnic. We stopped in Jackson on the way back home. I teach in Decatur.

By Karen Armsby

September 23, 2005 11:20 AM | Link to this

Amazed, KMF, and Velatra, Good suggestions for fixing the education problem. I asked each of you because I wanted to see if you think integration is the answer. It appears to me from your answers that personal involvement through good parenting, good mentoring, and community involvment are the answers, that we need to open each child’s eyes to the possibilities, and let each child know that they can achieve those possibilities, and support their efforts as they go through school.

As to funding issues, each school in a district should receive equal funding per student, and you need to address that with the school admin and board if you believe it is unequal. FYI Wealthier school districts already share their taxes, as they have been sending a portion of their revenues to the State for years to share with poorer school districts.

IMHO the key to getting the personal involvement for these kids lies in getting active leadership (one person or a team) in your school who can and will organize cooperative efforts between school and community, with businesses for funding, with potential volunteer parents and grandparents helping in the school, even high school kids wanting to do community service.

There are already several organizations that can be used to help get things started. PTA is strong at many county levels, and has training available for leaders. Each school’s PTA draws support from the local school and community, the stakeholders. PTA means parents and teachers working together and when the teachers know the parents are on their side then they are more effective in the classroom and the good teachers are more likely to stay at the school.

There are Big Brothers and Big Sisters, the YMCA and Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts. Many local churches have community sports programs and clubs for the kids with weekly or weekend activities.

The leaders establish a network at your school and get the information to the families to get the kids signed up in available mentoring or after school homework sessions. The leaders can get the field trips planned and look for financial support from the local businesses. Leaders at your school can plan a career day and bring in the area doctors, lawyers, engineers and scientists. There are speakers bureaus that can provide a speaker for an event. Are there more organizations out there that you bloggers work with or know about?

You don’t have to reinvent the wheel to start helping. It is much easier to start programs under the umbrella of established organizations. And it is safer for the children because there are rules and liability issues that are addressed before you plan activities for the children.

Professional sports teams in Atlanta give a lot to our kids, and special events could be planned to benefit kids from each ‘at risk’ or ‘low performing’ school.

I think we have all agreed in these blogs that good parenting is so important to make students successful. When the kids have the support, whether at home, at school or from the community then they will always do better in school.

By KMF

September 23, 2005 11:29 AM | Link to this

RF - Glad you to see you back and that you got a better understanding on yesterday.

SWC - You make it really hard. This is a conversation to try and help our cultures understand our differences and think of ways to improve relations. Just pointing out the negatives of each society is counter-productive. I could point out many of your past leaders that were far worse than anything we’ve produced, including many of the past Presidents, senators, congressmen, governors, mayors, sheriffs, etc…who held slaves, or were members of the KKK, during their service to their communities. Leaders who led lynch mobs, covered up or participated in murders, rapes, & assaults. Now how’s that for serving the community?

You continue to place all blacks into 1 box, and think that we all share the same opinion on complex subjects. You may want to look in the mirror, because you’re just repeating the same stereotypical garbage we hear all of the time. Can you please just open your mind, and let go of your preconceptions and conservative-spun facts for a little while? thank you.

The fact that you believe meth will have no effect on the white community…is telling me how blind you are. Meth is the easiest drug for a child to get. It can be, and is, manufactured in homes, vans, storage facilities, all over this country. And guess who it’s affecting most? White youth. Don’t think that your children or their friends can’t be tempted, especially if you’re so oblivious, that you don’t even warn them of the dangers.

And before you go repeating facts about black leaders, that you read in a magazine somewhere…why don’t you go meet and actually speak with people who were apart of those movements, because I have. If you read an article by someone black, I would possibly give you some credit. But spouting something from someone who couldn’t have been truly accepted in any of those organizations, because of his color…since the government was placing spies among them in the first place…just to discredit them to the mainstream (i.e white folks). Think about it. That’s like Clarence Thomas telling me about the KKK because he was friends with Strong Thurmond.

By RF

September 23, 2005 11:30 AM | Link to this

Velatra—I’m surprised you were treated that way at the ice cream place. Apparently there are still are some ignorant folks in the country down there around Jackson. I thought most of that was gone.

Good point once again Karen A. There are many organizations that can help our poorer kids cope. But parents either aren’t aware or don’t care to get the kids involved. It’s too easy to sit and complain about the situation and wait for someone else to do something about it.

By Karen Armsby

September 23, 2005 11:35 AM | Link to this

RF, I am an optimist and believe that there are leaders in every community, even the poorest, who can take on the task of improving their schools, one day at a time, one child at a time. You start small and grow tall.

By SWC

September 23, 2005 11:38 AM | Link to this

RF: I said that blacks would be more adversely affected by crystal meth than whites IF they did those drugs. I’m not saying that crystal meth is the drug of choice of blacks - I know that it is primarily a “white” drug. My point was simply that drugs cause more destruction to “the black community” because they lack the family structure to counteract the insidious nature of drugs. I urge you to read FrontPage Magazine… VALETRA: I know that there are other black “role models” and Condoleeza Rice and Colin Powell are great examples of how it is possible to get to the top in this country. Rice and Powell are not “leaders” in the sense that I was referring to - which is people who claim to represent the “black community”. Condi Rice and Colin Powell represent everybody - they do not operate based on ethnicity. I also take an exception to the claim that Kweisi Mfume or anyone who belongs to The Congressional Black Caucus”. are not separatists. Do you think that we should have a “Congressional White Caucus”. Don’t you think that its just a WEE BIT hypocritical to complain about racism when you and those leaders divide you up by race??? Sweetie Pie? Maybe they aren’t demanding that blacks and whites live in different nations, but they do separate themselves and form their identity and get votes based on their skin color. Further more, Cynthia Mc Kinney is as anti-semitic as they come which is typical of the left Wing these days who love Arabs and hate Jews. As far a Bill Clinton and Jesse Jackson goes, if you fell for that sham of a p.r. move, all the fake soul-searching and prayers and counseling, then I don’t know what to say. And, just because Bill Clinton is white and was President doesn’t mean that I have any respect for him. I don’t choose my leaders and vote based on the skin color. I care about the ideas that are espoused and the character of the individual. I would vote for Condi Rice over Hilary Clinton any day. And once again, I’m not going to fall for your “black friends” garbage. I did not make a “speech”, I was giving you some information about my life experience. Now if you want to play this game, then I need to ask you: Do you have gay friends? Do you have Mexican-American friends? How about Chinese? Eskimo? Japanese? Middle-Eastern? Republicans? Jews? This is just such a ridiculous premise that I won’t go there. Finally, One more time - I don’t care who invented the refrigeration system for trucks. On a scale of one to a million, when ranking accomplishments, that fact is not something that deserves the status you think it deserves. This invention did not dramatically change our lives like the electric light bulb, assembly line, telephone and other inventions did. I am not any more enlightened now that I know that trivial fact. It is far more important that students understand the CONCEPTS and IDEAS that make us a great nation, such as the ideas that formed our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution. Thanks to curriculum re-written by politically-correct “educators”, students waste their time learning trivia that may make you feel good because you can say how proud you are, but it serves no other purpose because it is not historically significant.

By KMF

September 23, 2005 11:51 AM | Link to this

RF - And the reasons we need organizations like the Congressional Black Caucus is because of inequalities in this country. If racism didn’t exist…then those organizations wouldn’t exist…period. Why is that so hard to understand. Don’t hate groups that are there to uphold our equal rights, and make a stand for injustice.

Karen - Those are very well-thought out ideas that you have. I’ll definitely do what I can, and spread these helpful ideas to others. Hopefully we can all “Pay it Forward.”

By dan

September 23, 2005 11:52 AM | Link to this

Velveeta good comeback with the dung comment.I know Jesus personally.I try to follow His teachings and treat my fellow man as I want to be treated.I do not care what color skin a person has.No one should get special treatment.Herr McKinney is not a good example to use either.She is full of spite and hatred. It will probably blow your mind but I am married to a black woman and have been for the last 23 years.My family is very racist and disowned me.I havent stepped in their house since 1982 but that is their problem not mine.Her family will not have anything to do with us either.Is that racism also? Can only whites be racists?

By Karen Armsby

September 23, 2005 12:07 PM | Link to this

Dan, Both families appear to be PREJUDICED BIGOTS who practice DISCRIMINATION against you and your wife. RACISM itself may or may not be the reason on either side.

Merriam Webster defines RACISM as: 1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race 2 : racial prejudice or discrimination

PREJUDICE as: 1 : injury or damage resulting from some judgment or action of another in disregard of one’s rights; especially : detriment to one’s legal rights or claims 2 a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b : an instance of such judgment or opinion c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics

DISCRIMINATION AS: the act, practice, or an instance of discriminating categorically rather than individually b : prejudiced or prejudicial outlook, action, or treatment

And BIGOT as: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices

By KMF

September 23, 2005 12:14 PM | Link to this

Dan - It’s good to see that you’ve had a very long marriage to someone of a different background. I wish you both continued happiness.

And “yes,” blacks can be racist too. It’s just that when we’re racist, past experiences are our reason for it. Not that makes it right…but that’s “usually” the basis. It’s especially hard for a black father or mother to see their daughter with a white guy, because there’s been such a long history of white men raping and abusing our women. So there’s a very deep pain from that still in our community, especially with the older generation who could witness or heard stories first-hand. Then these women would be left to raise these mixed babies alone, without being able to tell the child who their father was, and having the shame from the black community of fathering a baby by a white man.

But interracial marriage is becoming so common now. I think by the time our children start getting married, it’ll be much less of an issue. And I also think that it’s a good thing. It helps foster a bridge between the 2 cultures, that if 2 people of different races can live and love for life, then why can’t the rest of us just treat each other with dignity and respect?

By Velatra

September 23, 2005 12:15 PM | Link to this

SCW,

This is how you answer a question.

Yes, I do have a gay friend (do I agree with her actions/beliefs? No.). Yes, I do have a Republican friend. Yes, I do have a Chinese friend. No, I don’t have any Eskimo friends because I don’t know any Eskimos. Yes, I have a Jewish friend. Yes, I have a Middle-Eastern friend. No, I do have any Japanese or Mexican-American friends because I don’t know any. See how easy that was? You know fully well what I mean.

Once again, you keep bringing up the “refrigeration/milk truck” issue. At this point, I see that it is futile to get my overall point across to you. As for the difference between “role models” and “leaders”, we have arrived at an impasse. Clearly, I can speak for myself. I don’t need Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, or anyone else to speak for me. They do not “lead” or influence me to think any one way or another.

Since you’re into historical significance, are you interested in the stories of Joseph Cinque (the “Amistad” story), the former town of Rosewood, FL, the Dred Scott decision, Plessy vs. Ferguson, Brown vs. Board of Education, Topeka, KS? There are countless other historically significant facts that include African-Americans, but are “swept under the rug”.

Like my father says, if a passerby sees (or, in this case, reads) a fool and a wise man arguing, he won’t know the difference. I don’t want to be mistaken for a fool (meaning that a fool has a one-sided view of thinking). So, I’ll end my arguments with you here. You may argue until your fingers fall off. Thanks for all your time and my wasted energy. May Fredrick Jones rest in peace!!!

By RF

September 23, 2005 12:25 PM | Link to this

KMF—take it easy, that was SWC that slammed that one, not me. I’m staying out of the debate between you two at this point!! I definitely don’t want to argue the need for any congressional group that tries to represent a specific group. That’s part of what keeps congress balanced. Check your names, please!!

By KMF

September 23, 2005 12:28 PM | Link to this

RF - sorry about that. I meant SWC. Didn’t mean to direct that towards you.

By Karen Armsby

September 23, 2005 12:36 PM | Link to this

I think the blog is a wonderful little microcosm of society. We have a wonderful opportunity in this public forum of free speech to discuss real solutions for real problems. We have come here from many backgrounds; racial, ethnic, religious, social, political, and economic. But sadly, civility is largely absent here.

Our children are born into the world as blank slates, and we all want the best for them. Why then do these blogs get so bogged down in uncivil, sarcastic, disrespectful, rude name calling diatribes.

If you would take as much time to propose solutions for the issue we are discussing, instead of trashing each other, then maybe some good would come of the time you spend blogging. IMHO, you bashers and trashers have wasted your time and mine. Food for thought; your defensive and offensive attitudes, sarcasm, frustration, anger and name calling are mimicked by your children. The child becomes what the parent models to them.

By RF

September 23, 2005 12:39 PM | Link to this

quite alright—I just didn’t want all the venom being credited to me. **;- )

Like I said yesterday, I learned some things that make sense from what you wrote, and looking at the kids I teach today, I’m realizing where much of their behavior comes from. I’m trying now to see if there isn’t something proactive we can do to help break the cycle so many of these kids are caught in today. I find I’m not worried about racial issues as much as I am about poverty and all it’s struggles. That’s where the real problem comes from, at least where I am.

By RF

September 23, 2005 12:42 PM | Link to this

Sometimes KA we act more like children than the children do!! I think it comes from too much stress, and too many talk shows making it look acceptable and funny to beat each other up. We live for the violence and find it entertaining. And my friends wonder why I hardly ever let my boys watch TV at home!!

By SWC

September 23, 2005 12:44 PM | Link to this

KMF - Where do you get YOUR information? Magazines? The Radio? TV? I am providing you a link to some facts about some people that YOU chose as example of leaders (and who you strongly imply were unfairly put in jail or killed by white men). You chose those names, not me!

It is absolutely pathetic that you can’t accept anything if it wasn’t written by a black person! That is how you have been taught to think - this is the mentality that separates us and illustrates exactly why we are at an impasse as a nation.

You are so poisoned by propaganda (that is also based on anti-Americanism) that you think that only blacks can relate to blacks. You are completely blind to anything that binds us as Americans or as members of the human race. While I can vote for a black person, apparently you can’t because you don’t even trust anything that is written by a white person!

The link that I provided is by a white man who worked with the Black Panthers and once believed completely in their cause - David Horowitz of frontpagemag.com (also the outhor of a great book, “Radical Son”. He is a former Leftist, anti-war activist, raised as a Communist, editor of Ramparts Magazine. He is someone who WAS truly accepted. He was THERE in Oakland, CA with Huey Newton and these men that you either idolize or think were unfairly “dissed”.

I’m not going to sit here and list everything that I”ve ever read by “a black person” but I will tell you that I read and admire black conservatives like the very same Clarence Thomas that you apparently despise. I also get to hear from race-baiters like Harry Belafonte and Denzel all the time - it is impossible not to hear their ideas.

If you want to stay “stuck on stupid” go right ahead, live your life with a great big chip on your shoulder. All I’m suggesting is that you read one article by someone who actually meets your credentials - who was “accepted”.

By Karen Armsby

September 23, 2005 12:46 PM | Link to this

RF, Exactly! TV gives us the Jerry Springer model for (in)effective communication…..

By Velatra

September 23, 2005 12:48 PM | Link to this

dung,

To answer your question, no, ALL races can be racists. As a matter of fact, we African-Americans tend to be more racist toward each other at times.

You’re right. I am surprised that you are married to an African-American woman. Aside from the surprise, though, your marriage is an example of the phrase, “Love conquers all.” There are some folks who marry within their own race and can’t stay together 6 mos. So, congratulations! I sincerely pray that you and your wife enjoy each other for a long time. I also pray that your families will wake up and change their views and ways. Assuming that you have children, you probably have beautiful children that their grandparents and other relatives are missing out on.

By the way, does your wife have an “attitude” like me? ;-) I couldn’t resist. Hahahaha! Take care.

By SWC

September 23, 2005 12:54 PM | Link to this

Valetra - My question about whether you had friends that belonged to different ethnic or gender groups was supposed to be a rhetorical question. I was trying to make a point about your dogged insistence that I answer your baited question.

Everyone: following is something from NCLB which explains in a nutshell what is wrong with our society and why we are so divided. Hint - the p.c. police have divided us up into groups from which we are meant to identify ourselves:

“Under the law each school is divided into a possible 57 subgroups according to race, ethnicity, gender, family income and other factors”

That says it all.

By dan

September 23, 2005 01:35 PM | Link to this

Yes Valetra she has quite an attitude at times but looking back on our years together her attitude helped to hold us together.Lets all put our differences aside at least for a little while and pray for the gulf coast that is about to be hit with another massive storm.Take care everyone and have a great weekend.

By RF

September 23, 2005 01:39 PM | Link to this

Dan—so right. The levees in NO are already leaking and the 9th ward, already massively flooded, is being inundated again with water. Hopefully most of those people will not try to come back. It won’t be worth it.

By VELATRA

September 23, 2005 01:45 PM | Link to this

dan,

You are absolutely, 100% right. You have a great weekend, too.

By KMF

September 23, 2005 02:05 PM | Link to this

SWC - Sorry I went to lunch, and just getting back to the conversation.

Maybe I need to be a little more clear on the definition of black leader, as I consider it. I consider a black leader anyone who instills confidence, togetherness, upliftment, and takes a stand toward what they and their community sees as injustice. Now by that definition, the people I mentioned are considered leaders in that right, no matter what other things you may consider them, they played a role in bringing about change and bringing a fighting spirit for equal rights. Now personal demons of any individual aside…they accomplished this much. That’s my point. You can look at anyone and find mistakes that they’ve made in life. Our current President, admitted to Cocaine use in his youth. But he was still elected our Commander in Chief. This goes to show that people will turn a blind eye to personal issues, if a person reflects their views of certain issues and ideas.

And before you consider me “stuck on stupid,” I suggest you rethink your own philosophy. I live in reality. And my reality shows that racism is very much alive and well. And as long as it is, there needs to be people that are willing to stand and fight it. And if you consider that as being separatist, then you are dangerously and foolishly mistaken.

And if I had a chip on my shoulder, then I wouldn’t be able to deal with this society, considering the many people with your mindset, and would’ve done something very foolish by this point in my life. I personally believe that the majority of blacks really deserve a pat on the back from being able to keep their sanity dealing with these issues on a daily basis for so long. Many can’t, fall victim, and become separated from the mainstream. Don’t be so quick to judge something you obviously haven’t had much experience facing.

By Karen Armsby

September 23, 2005 02:27 PM | Link to this

We all deserve a pat on the back. All of us, whatever color or creed, sex or nationality have barriers to cross, and crosses to bear in our quest for a good life. Let’s try to think the best of each other, and not the worst, and not be so quick to anger and lash out. Cultural differences do matter when it comes to conversations. Look at all the misunderstandings and jumping to conclusions here in this blog.

By RF

September 23, 2005 02:33 PM | Link to this

Yep, you’re right again KA. I was pretty snippy yesterday, but I got some good info that affected how I see things. That’s what is neat about this kind of forum. Makes me wish people in this city could spend more time sitting in the park together and discussing these kinds of issues. Some good things happen, so I’ll put with the extremism to get there.