Get Schooled

By teacher

September 2, 2005 11:55 AM | Link to this

This is a terrible idea. In fact, this will ensure our status of 50th in SAT scores for a long time to come.

For some reason, tech prep has earned a bad name. In reality, a student who goes to school and learns a trade is much better prepared to support him or herself than someone who graduates with a college prep diploma and then cannot go to college.

As a teacher, you must find the middle ability level and teach to it. This tends to bring down those at the top. This is what has happened to Algebra in our state. Now that everyone takes Algebra, the algebra curriculum is weakened for all.

Why is it such an unpopular notion that kids should be challenged at their own level?

By VB

September 2, 2005 11:57 AM | Link to this

I agree with the Superintendent. We should also strive for uniformity in othe areas such as school schedules/breaks, cameras in classrooms, etc.. Remaining at the bottom of the SAT results should indicate that we have a serious problem and there is a real need for genuine education reform in Georgia. Year-round school would be another move in the right direction. So much of what we do is still connected to the reforms of an agricultural society of the 1800’s. Get everyone on the same page and I believe we will have positive results.

By HStchr

September 2, 2005 12:14 PM | Link to this

I don’t where anyone gets the idea that a Career Tech diploma is “less” than a College Prep. diploma. Same number of credits last time I checked. The only difference is that CT kids have to have a three year concentration in a vocational area. Anyone who thinks that’s “easier” needs to come in and try it. Why, why, why do we feel it necessary to make all kids have the same diploma?? They all have to take Algebra and four year of English regardless of diploma type. How is a child who is truly interested in a vocation ever going to take the college prep courses PLUS his career courses?? And we wonder why 4 out of 10 drop out???

By Leia

September 2, 2005 12:28 PM | Link to this

The two diploma types do require the same number of credits, but, the coursework is vastly different. The Math courses (3 years instead of 4 for College Prep) are a joke. My 6th grader could pass the final exams right now. The other big difference is that these students are not going to get into a research university right out of high school with a technical diploma. Parents don’t want to hear that. They all believe that their children are college prep material.

By Jake

September 2, 2005 12:31 PM | Link to this

Look for the ‘with distinction’ seals to go next. As teacher points out, this ‘we’re all one’ mentality invariably leads to an overall dumbing down and teaching to the lowest common denominator. Consequently, Georgia children are being left behind every day, the best and the brightest. Ms. Cox ignored the fact that Georgia actually offers three diplomas. Perhaps she will move toward all diplomas being the third variety, special ed, in the very near future.

By ADL

September 2, 2005 01:02 PM | Link to this

What is next?

Perhaps the 40% that drop out could be given “resignation awards”.

By em

September 2, 2005 01:04 PM | Link to this

This is a load of crap. The high school at which I teach has already done this and preliminary results are not positive. When is public education going to stop being egalitarian? Every child should have an equal opportunity to an education but the reality is that not every child learns on the same level. The purpose of a free public education is to create productive members of society. In doing what Kathy Cox is proposing, the message of public education is that students are not a success unless they go to college. As the recent SAT scores indicate, not all students have the capabilities needed to attend college. It is time to stop being politically correct; public education should be cultivating a true vocational curriculum that will translate into real jobs upon graduation.

By AP

September 2, 2005 01:27 PM | Link to this

How sad that adults can fool themselves into thinking that all students can learn and earn the same diploma. Sorry idealists, but I teach kindergarten and for 24 years, I’ve seen them come in on all levels. I pull out all the tricks, but there are some that just don’t make progress like others. When the year is over, they go out on all levels. In spite of all we do, some are left behind. Why do these idealists think this will change with one high school diploma? We aren’t all made with equal brain power. Each person has his/her gifts. Our state needs to continue to recognize these students who excel for those academic gifts with a diploma that says they did more than just the minimum!

By Teacher

September 2, 2005 01:41 PM | Link to this

In other countries, they capitalize on the individual students’ talents and abilities. They have different schools for the students’ different goals. We need to follow that example. I’m currently teaching at a school where we did away with tracking. I teach college-level students in the same room as slow learners. This situation is not ideal for any student. I can’t make the work challenging enough for some students, and some fail no matter how much I simplify.

By the way, VB, the tech prep students are NOT the ones taking the SATs…

By TEACHER

September 2, 2005 01:48 PM | Link to this

I teach Career Technology / IT (Information Technology) in High School. I have had some of the best academic students in my program because they were interested in IT. They graduated knowing exactly what they wanted to do since the 10th grade. Most went to schools like Georgia, Morehouse, Georgia Tech, Georgia State and most are majoring in computer Science and computer Eng. Others are majoring in Graphic Art Design. These students took AP and other courses serious because they knew they would need the information to major in Computer Science topics. That was their motivation. Other students that went through the program that did not want to or could not go to larger universities and major in such High End subjects have gone to schools like High Tech University, Defry, ect. and majored in computer network and security, etc. Because of test scores being mandated the schools are taking most all the students with high grades out of these programs and making them take AP classes. The same students that are going to do well on the test and go to college anyway, the only difference is they go to college not knowing what they want to do. My students have told me that they get into the courses in their field of study a lot sooner because of what they learned in Career Tech classes in Highschool. They except out on test of most of the beggining classes.

Career Tech classes are a plus to all students on all levels.

By mary

September 2, 2005 01:48 PM | Link to this

We still have a problem with the high school exit exam. This test seems to be forgotten until the end of the school year. All students take the same test regardless of what type of diplomia they receive. Does this seem fair?

A lot of children who go through the 12th grade and meet all credits but are unable to pass parts of the exit exam eventually have to pursue getting a GED. (They are now not high school graduates and considered dropouts) Even to get the GED they have to be tested and retested until they are even able to pass the GED. They might as well of dropped out earlier instead of wasting their time. What about these children? They are lost and forgotten.

By sm

September 2, 2005 01:49 PM | Link to this

The last time I checked human beings were not identical!

By VB

September 2, 2005 01:56 PM | Link to this

I’m amazed at how negative some of the posts are. It seems that everytime someone tries to do something to move us forward, they are attacked. Of course, we will have different opinions on the subject, but this is ridiculous. I don’t think the issue is about different levels of learning, it’s about basics, folks! I agree, not all students are on the same level. However, there are certain basics incorporated in the curriculum that every student should be accountable for learning. The result, all students graduate with the same diploma.

This non-sense about allowing students “to walk” without earning their credits and granting “certificates of attendance” just to please parents is keeping us at the bottom. Let the diploma mean the same thing. Leave the majors and minors for the college level.

I say UNIFORMITY, as much as possible.

By Leia

September 2, 2005 02:04 PM | Link to this

VB - if you want everyone to graduate with the same diploma, then we should have high school end in the 8th grade! By then - of the “basic” skills you need have been taught. I cannot imagine having some of my students graduate with the same credentials as my better ones. That diminishes all of the hard work the smarter students have put in.

By HStchr

September 2, 2005 02:09 PM | Link to this

Leia and VB—the Career Tech kids take the SAME math and english classes as all the rest. There’s no easier math track for those kids. They only take three maths so that they can get their career classes in the schedule. And let me tell you, the Career teachers I know teach harder than some academic teachers could ever hope to teach. They have an expansive, real-world curriculum. I am an academic area teacher and have seen first hand how challenging a Career Technical diploma can be. Stop calling it an easier diploma. It’s not and never will be. Not all children are the same, and not all want to go to a four-year college and shouldn’t be treated that way. The dropout rate will SOAR!! Once again, Dummy Cox and her crew are making decisions to appeal to their political supporters without asking the people who see the kids every day if those decisions are realistic!!

By ConcernParent

September 2, 2005 02:09 PM | Link to this

How can she make so many decisions without consulting the Public? I thought that she worked for the Public. These are not her kids who she is making it hard for but our kids. We need to take a stand together!! Not only on this issue but also the CRCT testing.

By Leia

September 2, 2005 02:16 PM | Link to this

HStchr - the students on a technical track DO NOT take the same math courses as college prep students!!

Technical students take Concepts of Problem Solving, Concepts of Algebra and Informal Geometry. These courses are vastly different from the college prep courses - Algebra I, Geometry, Algebra II and Advanced Algebra & Trigonometry. I won’t even get into the Honors and Gifted students…

By Robert

September 2, 2005 02:29 PM | Link to this

When will the republicans stop messing up education (in other words, changing it for the worse)? Kathy Cox needs to wake up and stop her attempts at grabbing headlines by making proposals that will make education in Georgia worse. She is not going to get re-elected anyway….. I hope!

By teacher

September 2, 2005 02:30 PM | Link to this

At our Cobb County school, the tech student and the college prep students DOtake the same math courses.

Also, don’t forget that Dubya eliminated ALLfunding for tech ed in this year’s budget, undoubtedly to afford to give those oil companies a half-billion dollars in corporate welfare.

By HStchr

September 2, 2005 02:30 PM | Link to this

What school system are you talking about Leia? The two I’ve taught in never made that distinction and I wasn’t aware any school system in Georgia had the money to do that. Trust me, it isn’t that way where I’ve been. Same math for all. It WAS that way some years back in the metro system I was in, but the state quit funding those basic courses and REQUIRED all students to take Algebra. It IS a state requirement in Georgia and I should know as a teacher. There is a slightly different Geometry available in the system I am currently in, but that is the only difference. It’s not easier than the regular Geometry, it just offers smaller classes to cover the curriculum. Please let me know where they offer these other courses so I can recommend some kids to that system. I know quite a few kids who need it.

By wds PARENT

September 2, 2005 02:33 PM | Link to this

The fork in the career education path should occur after high school graduation.Until that point, all students should be prepared to enter the real world, as only about sixty percent go on to post secondary education and only forty percent of those achieve a bachelor degree.It appears that the higher the bar needs to be set as the educational demands of society increases, there is certain amount of side stepping and smoke and mirrors to accomodate this instead of facing the problem head on.

By CA

September 2, 2005 02:51 PM | Link to this

I agree with the people here who have pointed out that different diplomas do not necessarily mean unequal diplomas. At my high school, for example, 11th graders took either college prep English or vocational English. The workload was comparable, but some (not all) classic literature was replaced in the voc. class by occupational reading and writing (business letters, technical manual style writing, etc,). All students had to learn a basic curriculum, but their paths diverged beyond those basics. Having different curriculum tracks isn’t about labeling students as better or worse; it’s about recognizing that different people have different strengths and learn in different ways. By offering several high quality curriculum options, we can sure that more students will excel both in school and in life after school.

By allie

September 2, 2005 03:00 PM | Link to this

Merging the two diplomas will end up with disastrous results for the state. I graduated a few years ago and had a dual diploma and can tell you from experience that even though the college prep track will teach you more things that will be used in college, a vo-tech class will let you apply it and uses real knowledge. There should be a difference in diplomas according to what a child wants to do or abilities. Even difference math or English classes for vo-tech students aren’t necessarily a bad thing. Most of the people I knew in them learned the practical things that are needed – resumes, basic business writing, etc while the college prep track only worried about essays. Let people choose their track and if a student wants to go to a research university but still learn a skill, then let them do both (it works especially well with block scheduling). Then you leave with a skill that can be applied to anything and you also know how to do the basics if you want to attend a research university. Don’t force people to learn things that will not help them in the real world only for the sake of trying to raise scores and an education level overall.

By Dan

September 2, 2005 03:17 PM | Link to this

This just advocates the use of the SAT or something like it for college entry. State and local governments can set programs and diplomas however they like, there needs to be some common measuring stick. This is just like the out of control political correct language, or raising the SAT scores by limiting who takes it. how about just teaching “good ole readin riting and rithmatic” If you succeed at that everything else will fall into place

By HStchr

September 2, 2005 03:28 PM | Link to this

Dan, if only you could convince Her Imperial Idiocy Cox of that, the state would indeed be better off. Unfortunately, she thinks treating every kid from 70 IQ to 140+ as if he or she will go to college is the way to go. I teach remedial reading in high school, so believe me, we spend our time on “readin and ritin” (and I have a few kids who still spell that way at 14 and 15…, but that’s another issue). Some kids need higher level courses and should be allowed to have them. I don’t see why we’ll offer Honor’s courses if it kills us, but we can’t justify courses on the basic level for those kids with lower IQ’s. We’re not suppose to leave anyone behind, but by golly we’re about to do just that I fear.

By HStchr

September 2, 2005 03:32 PM | Link to this

thats supposed not suppose. It’s Friday and I’ve been correcting grammar and spelling ALL DAY—I’m fried!!

By DOESpokesman

September 2, 2005 03:45 PM | Link to this

I think there is a misunderstanding here about Superintendent Cox’s proposal. This in no way would eliminate career tech classes. In fact, elsewhere in her State of Public Education speech, the Superintendent said the GaDOE will be enhancing career and technical education. See the speech here. However, all students will be asked to take the same basic core subjects — English, Math, Social Studies and Science. Whether the rest of the student’s classes veer toward Career Tech or AP, the student will receive the same diploma. - Dana Tofig, Spokesman for the DOE By doing this, the state is saying a Career Tech path is just as important as a College-bound path.

By Robert

September 2, 2005 04:23 PM | Link to this

DOESpokesman, who are you trying to fool? Simply by giving out one piece of paper that is the same for two separate curriculums is supposed to be some kind of fix? For what? This is just an attempt by Kathy Cox to muck with education and grab headlines. She is clueless about what is needed in Georgia classrooms…. by students and by teachers.

By Pops

September 2, 2005 04:25 PM | Link to this

Kathy Cox is an idiot who only got elected because people confused her with another politician running for office at the same time.

Ms. Cox has not be good for education. She would better serve our children if she went back to doing what ever it was she did before becoming State Super.

The diplomas are different because the educational requirements are different.

When is the State and Federal Government going to leave local school districts alone?

By Karen Armsby

September 2, 2005 04:31 PM | Link to this

Question, Will the merging of the technical and college prep diplomas raise the requirements for math and science for the tech ed students? If so, then that is a very good thing, because in today’s technical jobs you need plenty of math and science and computer training to understand, operate and repair automated systems, diagnostic tools, and the computers running the operating systems. That is the real world.

By Robert

September 2, 2005 04:33 PM | Link to this

Pops, I agree completely. The republicans said that they were for local control - so that school systems could make the best decisions for their local students. However, the republicans are for big government and government control. Look at Kathy Cox as just one example. Even Dubya wants the federal government to get into everything from marriage to other laws about our private lives.

I guess republicans just cannot tell the truth…

By Danielle

September 2, 2005 04:35 PM | Link to this

Basically, kids come to high school with the assumtion they passed pre-algebra in middle grades. I teach special ed. in high school and I know for a fact that getting the students in special ed to sit and study for more than 15 minutes takes work on everyone’s part. Math is one of the most difficult classes because it requires abstract thinking as well as reading comprehension, both skills which are usually weak areas with the special ed students. Then there is Informal Geometry (no proofs are done…lower than “regular geom”), which some kids have to take more than once. By this time, the students feel like such a failure teachers have to be cheerleader for them to succeed. I think that having the kids learn at their ability is much better than lowering the standards, so the higher ability kids go as high as they can, while the lower performing kids, feel successful without taking “special” classes all the time.

By Karen Armsby

September 2, 2005 04:52 PM | Link to this

It’s ridiculaous to say that there will only be one standard curriculum offered, and for that matter one diploma. I saw an article recently about more public schools beginning to offer the IB or International Baccalaureate, which has much stricter academic standards. And those students taking a multitude of honors/gifted and AP or Advanced Placement classes, which are taught at a college level should continue to receive a seal with distinction on their diplomas. Merging the technical and college prep diplomas and requirements should broaden the students’ options after high school, not limit them.

By Karen Armsby

September 2, 2005 04:56 PM | Link to this

sorry for the typo on ridiculous

By Homeschooler

September 5, 2005 10:00 AM | Link to this

OK, so what about homeschoolers? We now can’t get a diploma at all in the State of Georgia, but only a GED. We homeschool(ed) our 8 children, and so far we have a 100% placement rate in good colleges. Quit discriminating against us, Kathy. Our diplomas would be actually worth more than “college bound” public schoolers.

By Karen Armsby

September 5, 2005 11:48 AM | Link to this

Homeschooler, I don’t think that homeschoolers are ‘discriminated’ against. The State Bd. of Ed operates under the laws of Georgia, and your homeschool programs may not be included under the law. So, if you choose not to participate in the public schools or accredited private schools then the State may have no duty to issue diplomas to your homeschool graduates. The State Board of Ed. has a standard curriculum that the public school systems must follow and that the private schools must align their curriculums with also.

It seems to me that the homeschoolers should organize and present the State Bd. of Ed. with a proposal that shows that the State standards are met or exceeded through specifically identified homeschool curriculums. Then the State could accredit those home school programs and and award a high school diploma that would then enable the high achieving homeschoolers to get the HOPE for college.

Do other states and public school systems issue diplomas to homeschoolers? If so, what steps did they take to get their curriculums accredited and recognized so that diplomas could be issured? Perhaps your local state representatives could help you with gathering information, writing a proposal, or getting legislation enacted to get homeschool curriculums recognized, accredited and eligible to receive diplomas.

By Robert

September 5, 2005 12:02 PM | Link to this

Homeschoolers get a GED because that is the exact purpose of the GED. It is to recognize students that find an alternate way of learning the material required to be called a high school graduate. Isn’t that the definition of a home schooled student?

Why do you think that the GED is any less than any other high school diploma? It is not.

It seems that you are asking for special recognition of some sort for home schooling. That would be entirely WRONG.

By Karen Armsby

September 5, 2005 12:22 PM | Link to this

Robert, I am a former GED test examiner and administrator, and I can say that the GED is NOT equivalent to the high school diploma! It does NOT test the breadth of knowledge taught and required for graduation from high school. And GED recipients are only entitled to get a $500 Hope grant, which makes sense, since the GED serves mostly high school dropouts. The school systems don’t want to encourage any more kids to drop out of high school who may be thinking that they can just take the GED and also be entitled to the full HOPE scholarship for college.

Homeschooler had a good point that bright homeschooled students who complete and pass their homeschool high school programs should be entitled to some kind of state sanctioned diploma, and then as I said they could also qualify for HOPE.

By Lisa

September 5, 2005 01:20 PM | Link to this

I disagree with Cox’s idea that all students should aspire for the same diploma. At the school where I teach, most of our students are more interested in honing their skills in the arts, technology, or other “hands-on” careers, like construction trades or cosmetology. These students do not need to attend a four year college to attain their goals - so why should we bore them (and increase the likelihood of failure) with information they will not need as adults? A one-size education does not fit all - that’s why not all students go to four year colleges.

What we as educators need to focus on first is finding out each student’s strengths, interests and desires and then design a curriculum that addresses these strengths, interests and desires. This will take a huge paradigm shift for not only educators, but students, parents and communities as well.

By Karen Armsby

September 5, 2005 02:07 PM | Link to this

IMHO it is not the job of the schools to use public monies to design curriculums individually for students. There is already a good curriculum in place, and it appears from the discussion above that the technical education is not being eliminated. The present curriculum slready offers a wide range of options for the wide range of interests and abilities.

I think the schools’ primary mission should be to teach students the academic basics, how to think critically, and how to go on after high school and learn more for themselves. As to the most basic of the basics, students should be able to read, write and speak well, and have enough math to either go to college or meet the preparation needed from the many computerized, automated and electronic trades. If that means that tech ed math will now be the same as college prep math, then that is good.

After high school, graduates can go onto the work place, trade school, college, the military, or whatever to get additional education or training they seek.

By Ellen

September 5, 2005 03:46 PM | Link to this

Sounds like the mentality of the Cobb County School Board and ex-superintendant. Why not put more responsibility onto individual students?? Require a reasonable number of HS credits be earned BEFORE applying for parking priviledges. How about all students dress in uniforms if “Adequate Yearly Progress” is not identified? Parents and teachers make far too much of the required effort. Many of these same parents want school choice options for attendance. We need a multidiploma system where students apply,qualify and earn their diploma. And where learning strengths/weaknesses are less balanced, like learning disabiled students, alternate diploma choices is critical.

By Robert

September 5, 2005 04:20 PM | Link to this

Karen Armsby, I was unaware of all of the facts surrounding the GED. However, since the HOPE scholarship is based initally on grades earned in high school, it does make sense that it is restricted such that GED diploma earners have limitations.

And, if you think about, I would hope that you agree. LOL.

By Fletchdawg

September 5, 2005 04:43 PM | Link to this

sigh … Kathy Cox. I admit that I voted for her. After all, she was a teacher who would represent the teachers’ viewpoint … those of us in the trenches who realize better than anyone that all of that crazy ideology is wrapped up in political agendas. Kathy wouldn’t sell out … right?

Anyway, elections are around the corner and I suggest that Kathy prepares her farewell speech.

The progressive ideologists continue to ram their destructive agenda down our throats. A universal diploma is right up there with the “Whole Language” approach to reading, the middle school concept, SAT scores as a tool to measure school performance, and … cutting the U.S. History curriculum in half (which thank God failed). And the reason the latter failed was because teachers and parents came together (a rare occurence) and shot it down. There needs to be more of that. A teacher/parent marriage would push politicians away from using their so-called educational reform policies as their own personal dartboard.

Hopefully, this great, new concept will be shot down as well.

Now we need to find someone who truly represents educators and students … not hairbrained ideology that is cooked up in a college somewhere claiming to be “researched based.”

Any takers?

By Karen Armsby

September 5, 2005 04:52 PM | Link to this

Robert, Homeschoolers complete a high school curriculum for which they are tested and graded, so they do earn their grades. Perhaps their curriculum could be approved by the State, and they could take the high school graduation exams. With so much grade disparity among Georgia high schools, certainly homeschoolers could show they have earned their B averages too, and have an opportunity to get the HOPE.

By Karen Armsby

September 6, 2005 09:52 AM | Link to this

One more comment; the GED test is an assessment test and, upon passing, a credential is issued, not a diploma. It is like the SAT in that it tests reading, writing, and math skills and very general subject knowledge in social studies and science. Colleges use the GED cumulative and section scores to determine admission and placement. Good readers with good comprehension and vocabulary do very well on the GED, and poor readers test poorly.

There is no course of study one completes in order to be eligible to test, but one can prepare for the GED by attending prep classes, getting a GED prep book, or even going online to take practice tests.

By HSTeach

September 6, 2005 10:10 AM | Link to this

I will be so glad when she is gone. I really hope someone out there steps up with the schools in mind and not a political agenda. I hate the fact that politics is ruining our educational system (both dems and repubs are to blame, sorry guys). No one is using common sense and too many people are pushing some kind of idiotic “moral” agenda on the schools. The fact of the matter is this: not all students learn at the same level at the same rate. We keep trying to think of kids as some “product” we can sell in our economy. This is some serious problem we are facing. Last year, in my county alone, 370 students did not meet the level set by the state CRCT, but only 19 have been held back for remediation. The other 351 were “remediated” by attending summer sessions. Right, I believe that like I believe every high school in America will have a 100% graduation rate by 2014. But I digress…. Why do we want to have one diploma? What good does it serve? If they lower the standards to catch up the “slower” students, then you are doing a disservice to everyone who gets a diploma in the state of Georgia. If you raise all of the standards (which SHOULD happen anyway) you will see a tremendous increase in dropouts/failures across the board if someone does not plan on how to help those students that need it the most (by serving different levels of students!!!). Sure, let’s have all kids take Advanced Algebra and Trig before they leave because everyone is going to a 4-year college after high school, right? No one is going right into the workforce to feed their younger siblings or take care of their young child at home. Everyone can afford to go to schools like UGA and Georgia Tech. Sure! Because in Ms. Cox’s utopian world all students can read and write and do calculus at the same level, no matter the external factors affecting the student (disability, economics, poor familial setting, etc.). In her utopia, Georgia is leading the nation in improving student achievement…but I guess when you’re at the bottom, there’s no where else to go but up!

By Leia

September 6, 2005 10:21 AM | Link to this

In Gwinnett County, the college prep students take different math courses than those on a technical “track”. The first two courses on the technical track are supposed to be the equivalent to the Algebra I course. They aren’t even remotely the same, but, in terms of the EOCT - they get enough algebra to pass it, especially since the pass rate is about 40%!

I think this is one of the reasons why so many students lose the HOPE after the first semester of school. They have taken these watered down courses, gotten the HOPE and gotten a reality check once they’ve actually taken college-level courses. There should not be remedial courses in college! You either have the prerequisite knowledge or you don’t!

By teacher

September 6, 2005 10:34 AM | Link to this

The HOPE scholarship is for public and private high school students earning a B average or better. If one could earn HOPE just by achieving a certain standard on one test, it would completely remove the incentive based on average. Sorry you don’t qualify for it, homeschoolers, but that’s the way it is.

By HStchr

September 6, 2005 10:47 AM | Link to this

Unfortunately, I can’t agree with earlier posts that all kids need to take college prep level courses. I don’t see why we feel this compulsion to make a child with an 80 IQ study Chemistry and Trigonometry. Yes, I do believe we need to have high standards for all kids, but let’s face it, the higher we raise the bar, the more kids are going to be frustrated and quit. I teach those kids every day, and I don’t see why it is such a scandalous idea to offer them an education that will prepare them for life in the working world. They need to be tech-savvy, but Trig courses aren’t going to do that for them. They can learn, but the level they will aspire to just isn’t going to be that technical or academic that they need so much math and science. I hurt for those kids because school is just too hard for many of them and we seem to think it would be a disgrace to offer them what they need.

By Peret

September 6, 2005 10:55 AM | Link to this

One major problem I see with education is that way to much importance is placed on going to college. College is not the only place to learn job skills.

Unfort. college degrees have become a way to dicriminate. Example. I worked for a Fortune 50 company. In my department of 52 we had this women who by any strecth was someone you wanted on your team. Sne was smarter than, a very hard worker, and had talent galore. But guess what, she did not have a college. So every time a chance at a promotion came up she was passed over. Some “colege” kid with much less brains and desire was always promoted. All because she did not go to college.

Patti……maybe this could be a topic question…..When does work experience over take 4 years od college?

By Leia

September 6, 2005 11:00 AM | Link to this

Peret - as evidenced by your post, sometimes work experience doesn’t give one the communication skills needed for a higher-level job. Spelling and grammar are very important, the higher up you go on the food chain!

By Sherri

September 6, 2005 11:01 AM | Link to this

I agree. There are LOTS of ways to make money without a college degree. If you play your cards right someone who does not go to college can be way ahead at the four/five year graduation make.

If it cost 20K a year, just think where someone would be if they just saved that money and started their own businesses.

I think to often that the Education “People” are out for self preservation. Hey, look at my “company and product”….ie education. Spend money with me and you to will earn big bucks.

Anyone looked at what a homebuilder, plumber, electrician, auto repair person, even a person that cuts grass a year makes?

By teachertoo

September 6, 2005 11:05 AM | Link to this

I love the fact that Mrs. Cox wants to revamp Career and Technical/Ag. Ed. AGAIN!!! During the last five years Career and Technical/Ag. Ed. just revamped all of its performance standards. Guess what according to Mrs. Cox and the state staff its time to do it again. Some of the standards have just been approved during the last 3-6 months. What is going on? What a waste of time and money? We can’t leave something in place long enough to see if it works. Educators are exhausted at the constant changes and new ideas. The “one” diploma issue is just a public relations ploy. All teachers know that students will still be tracked and all diplomas will not be equal. Students that are truly interested in Career and Tech Ed./Ag programs need lots of academics. We are so overwhelmed with teaching and reinforcing academics that we don’t have time to teach our specialty. Students receiving a Tech Prep diplomas are taking English, Math, Social Sciences, and Science courses, but they are not as difficult as college prep academic courses. I agree all students need to take some form of Algebra. They all need Physical Science, Biology and Chemistry. They also need English. They all need history. Next they get to specialize in an area of Career and Tech/Ag. Ed. Other students might choose to take AP classes or fine arts electives. We need to offer a diploma with an program of study attached to it (extra academics, fine arts and career and tech ed/ag.) Career and Technical Ed/Ag educators are the only educators that get to deal with all ability levels in one class. We get college prep, tech prep and special ed. all at once. We are expected to work miricles. I think students should focus on academics for the first few years of high school and then go into career and technical/ag programs. For those of you that don’t know it Career and Tech Ed/Ag is very TECHNICAL in terms of ACADEMICS. Quit assuming that students that come into our programs don’t need to know how to read and write, etc. Career and Tech Ed/Ag program areas can also lead to college diplomas. All Career and Tech Ed/Ag teachers have college degrees in their area of expertise.

By Hannah

September 6, 2005 11:08 AM | Link to this

You’re absolutely right - there are many blue-collar workers who make a lot more money than some college educated workers. I would much prefer getting paid my “little” salary indoors, having much of the summer off to be with my child, than working outside in any type of weather, all hours of the day and night - and getting laid off in the winters!

Don’t knock college! I works for some people.

By Hannah

September 6, 2005 11:10 AM | Link to this

Oops - typo!

It should say, “It works for some people.”

By Abe

September 6, 2005 01:54 PM | Link to this

Hannah, for goodness sakes do not make a typo or the grammar police will be on you like stink on dung.

Leia, get a life kid. Peret was just making a simple point. Is that such a crime?

I agree with some of the commnents. We have gotten to the point where no one talks about kids being successful if they do not attend college. College is not for everyone.

I myself did not go to college. And I admit I was not that good in school. I am 42 and own an insulation company. I make about $180,000 a year, take 7 weeks vacation a year and employ 6 people. Yes, it’s hard work but I am more successful than many college graduates. I do not knock college. I may even go myself one day. But for me college was not my thing. I am glad I had someone to help me understand how to make money. I think too many people think that is what college is suppose to do. I do not view it that way.

By Sammy R

September 6, 2005 02:08 PM | Link to this

Hannah. You fall into the same trap that many others fall into. I work that “outside” job you are talking about. It’s not nearly as bad as people think. I assume by your post that you are a teacher. I am a roofer. Yes, it’s hard work. But there are many advantages. I set my own hours. I work as much or little as I want. Most years I make above $80,000. Last year I estimate I worked a total of 150 days at most. Often I only worked about 5 hours a day. I have time to picked my child up from school every day and can be at home with her when she is sick or on vacation. My house and autos are clear of any bank note and I have a home on the lake as well.

When I built my home all my construction buddies joined in. I do the same when they are building. I bought the materials and they helped with the labor. See, your home is your biggest investment. While my home is free of any bank note my college friends struggle to pay the note. Not bad for someone who dropped out of highschool.

But hey, if some wants to go to college that’s fine with me. I need all the high paying customers I can get.

By Hannah

September 6, 2005 03:53 PM | Link to this

Sammy - so we agree! College works for some people and not for others. Thanks for helping me illustrate my point. Yes, I’m a teacher, and I love my work. My college-educated husband’s salary allowed me to stay at home with my children until each of them started school.

I haven’t fallen into any “trap.” I just know and value the privilege of getting a good college education. I’m not knocking what you do. Someone needs to design and build our houses. God bless you! There’s just no way I’d be the one doing it!

FYI - we are not in debt, have never been in debt (scholarships!)and own very nice vehicles and a lake home as well. Maybe we’re neighbors!

By Laney

September 6, 2005 04:04 PM | Link to this

Sammy said - But hey, if some wants to go to college that’s fine with me. I need all the high paying customers I can get.

Didn’t you just contradict your own argument? I’m I reading it wrong, or are you assuming that college graduates would be able to afford your prices, and others would not?

Stop talking about going to college like it is a bad thing. Don’t you want your child to be as successful as you without tarring a roof? I would.

By Sammy

September 6, 2005 04:36 PM | Link to this

Laney, ease up. No one ever said college was a bad thing. I was just pointing out other options that many choose to employ.

Don’t you want your child to be as successful as you without tarring a roof? I would.

I measure my child’s success by how happy they are.

I do not define happiness by obtaining a college degree. There are things about my job I love and some I do not. I do not have to wear what someone tells me to wear. I go to work on my schedule. I eat lunch when I want to and if I want to take two hours for lunch and go to sleep….well….I can. I do not have to ask someone for a raise. I do not have to sit in the same office everyday. No one can downsize me. I would say I have it pretty good. And if the roofing industry slows down I have many other skills.

People get their education in a variety of ways. I got mine on the job. Some get it in a classtoom. That’s OK.

But hey, if some wants to go to college that’s fine with me. I need all the high paying customers I can get.

(It was a joke.)

My only point is that I think we put too much stress on people going to college and we do not spend enough time on talking to kids about being happy and how to make money.

By recentUGAgrad

September 6, 2005 04:39 PM | Link to this

When will people stop trying to fit everyone into the same student mold? People who graduate with College Prep diplomas want to go to college. Those who graduate with technical degrees want to either go to technical schools or enter the workplace. Those are very different types of students with very different hopes for the future. Why not let them differentiate themselves?

Also, a few of you are laboring under the misapprehension that going to college is by default a success. People drop out of college, flunk out, lose HOPE, or spend four years earning a degree that they can’t get paid to use. I’ve been fortunate. I got out in 4 years with a marketable degree and have been gainfully employed ever since. Not all of my friends have been so lucky. Some of them might have benefited from a technical diploma in the first place instead of wasting their money on a philosophy degree when they are actually a mechanic.