Get Schooled

By Robert

September 1, 2005 12:37 PM | Link to this

Science is very unique because of the labs that are required of the students. There is no way for a single adult teacher to ensure the safety of students for an overloaded class.

The national standard, as I understand, is 24 students per class. Imagine you as an adult trying to ensure that 24 kids with sharp scalpals running around in biology are safe! However, our wonderful State has allowed up to 30 students in a science class. Imagine that!

Of course, since our science scores are so very high, the State of Georgia is justified in increasing the student/teacher ratio in science classes. And, if you believe that then I have a tract of land on the Moon that I want to sell you.

By Jenifer

September 1, 2005 12:57 PM | Link to this

I am a former high school science teacher. I found that a science class of 24 or less was opitimal for laboratory activities. In Georgia, I usually had 28 in a class. Nothing would have prepared me for the change I faced in Oregon where they do not have class size limits. I had an average of 42 students in each science class and was expected to teach 6 classes a day. My student load was 210 students. That was only one of the MANY problems with teaching in Oregon. Unfortunately, I quit the profession after 2 years there and moved back to GA. The experience there, has caused me to stay at home and not go back into the classroom. I saddens me, because a lower class size really allows teachers to do exciting labs and give one on one help to students. Larger size classes have more behavior problems which take away class time. I don’t want GA to slowly turn into another Oregon.

By Zabud

September 1, 2005 01:11 PM | Link to this

Robert, you express, with some flare, the frustration many of us feel with respect to government’s management of public schools. The concern about class size, like virtually all of the other challenges facing our teachers and students, is compounded by the fact that we are operating our schools using a mutant, mid-19th century model.

For example, our State Board of Education and our State School Superintendent are strong supporters of the notion of “local control” ( a frightening thought) so long as the locals control things in a way that the state thinks they ought to be controlled! When that fails, state rules and regulations come into play, and since the state controls the major money, the locals have to come around.

Of course, the state is getting a taste of their own medicine with the federal authorities, especially with No Child Left Behind. Of course, a state can always do like Connecticut and sue or, better yet, like Utah and tell the Feds to go peddle their papers somewhere else. Georgia has neither the finances nor the fortitude to exercise either of those options.

What we need in American public schools is “Revolution,� not “Reform!�

No, I am not talking about burning the school houses down or establishing a home school in every house with a child, but rather instituting a whole new paradigm for managing the delivery of educational services to kids. Not only do we need to “think out of the box,� we need to “think out of the warehouse!�

By Syrupmaker

September 1, 2005 02:18 PM | Link to this

ANY lab class ought to be no larger than 20-22 students to help insure not only safety but quality supervision and instruction. In 1973, our heavy shop classes opened with the state recommended 18 per class (auto, metals, construction, etc) and now those same classes have 28 plus per instructor. Science labs can be dangerous if students are not closely supervised but so can heavy shops. We still have only 1 instructor in each and now they deal with not only large numbers but special needs “inclusion” students.

Lab classes are important for teaching the hands-on skills but large numbers should not be tolerated for safety’s sake if for no other reason.

By A teacher

September 1, 2005 02:19 PM | Link to this

Unfortunately, it is not just science. I currently have 29 fourth graders! At an elementary age that is riduculous. I am planning all subjects, grading all subjects, and managing a full classroom of nine-year olds. When people want to know the best way to improve our education, we need to reduce the class sizes in every grade and subject. That would allow us to really remediate, enrich, and be the kind of teachers that truly make a difference.

By David200

September 1, 2005 03:10 PM | Link to this

I understand the necessity of increasing the class size due to budget restraints. We simply don’t have the money. My solution is simple: if my class size gets over 24, I simply won’t go to lab. I am not risking my license because some kid decides to substitute his judgement for my instructions when I can’t observe him because of having too many students to watch at one time. If we don’t have the money, I’m not taking the risk. The students are the real losers.

What I’m trying my best to understand is why the State of Georgia requires so many science classes in the first place. Our education system taught the guys that put this nation on the moon. We only required 2 science class to graduate in the ‘60’s. It’s far more important to teach them how to read, write, and think logically than it is to teach them how many protons an element has. We need more teachers teaching that than science!!

I know the publsihed reason: we need more science graduates so they can get good jobs. What does that have to do with it? Once again we’ve confused correlation with causation. Good jobs go to smart people; not to people with degrees. We are educating many people far past their abilities.

When we give a degree to a person who is not properly educated, society can not distinguish between those that can from those that can’t. We push kids through science classes like cattle and pass them when they have little true understanding. All they can do is memorize facts and spit them back; they immediately forget the information. All this because few teachers really know the subject they teach. If they did, they would be working in industry for about twice what the state pays. Now, neither kids - nor their parents - can tell the difference between a theory and an opinion. Well, what do we expect when we as teachers don’t know either! Guys, there are people getting into the profession for the money!!

Ah… why do I keep bringing this up? No one cares. Educators: we have met the enemy, and it is us!

By Lynn

September 1, 2005 03:35 PM | Link to this

I think class size is an off-shoot of another hot button topic….teacher pay. Class sizes need to be increased because we don’t have enough teachers. Why is that? Because they don’t get paid enough. A first year teacher makes barely 28k per year. And we expect them to handle 28 kids at a time? To David200 - why do you say there are people getting into the profession for the money? What money?? In my opinion, teachers are far underpaid for what the country expects of them these days.

By Dan

September 1, 2005 04:03 PM | Link to this

Lynn you are correct that the salaries are low but the reason there is a teacher shortage is there are not enough adults of working age capable of teaching, that will allow class sizes of less than 20. It is a supply and demand equation. There are already far more teachers in this country than any other job requiring a 4 year degree, which is why the education curriculum is relatively easy to get throuh, if they tighten the requirements not enough teachers would earn a degree. Secondly it is a funding issue. The average family has 2 kids meaning if class sizes are kept to 20 students, every 10 families would have to pay for one teacher (This of course doesn’t include their share of buildings maint etc) So in essence if all teachers were paid 50K it would cost each family 5K a year (and the avg family income is around 45-50K) just for teachers salaries. So first of all there simply aren’t enough working adults with the capacity to teach to have 20 per class and even if there were it would be too expensive. We need to come up with better out of the box ideas. But the most important thing is to put the onus back on the parents. The reality is it is no one elses responsibility. Should society help? Absolutely, but it should be perceived as such. School is a privilege not a right

By Iteach

September 1, 2005 05:00 PM | Link to this

Science classes need to be smaller. I know, because that’s what I teach. Yes, science scores are terrible, and you cannot fight the problem by increasing class size.

For the last two years my HS Physical Science Classes stayed below an average of 18 students. This year all of my classes are 28 students. The last two years my EOCT scores were far above school average and my students avgerage score was excellent. My students were able to raise achievement because I could answer individual questions.

This semester I find that by the end of a class I have too many students waiting with questions. In the past I have also had to set aside time each week to teach math to my classes because their skills were lacking to say the least. It is impossible to teach Physics concepts to students that need calculators just to add or subtract. Having reviewed my current students’ math scores from last year only 8% passed the Algebra 1 EOCT. Last year it was 58% passing.

What can I expect of my students if more are incapable of doing math when 20-25% of the test has calcualtions. Now I have more students with more needs. Other science teachers in my system have expressed the same concerns. It was strange that at our lower performing schools staffing was reduced in science classrooms. However the leading school picked up two more science teachers and now has class averages of 18 or less.

I fear to see this year’s EOCT scores and next year’s GHSGT scores.

By David200

September 1, 2005 05:13 PM | Link to this

Lynn,

The “teachers” are getting into the profession because that’s “big money” to them. That’s what’s sad. These kids (new teachers) think $28k is big money. To them it is, because if they tried to make it in the business community, they wouldn’t even make that. Many of the schools of education in certain colleges need to be closed down. Their graduates are not capable of understanding what they’re teaching. I’ve even heard colleagues in my science department tell me that the earth is less than 6,000 years old. How do we expect the kids to know any different when we don’t know? Quite frankly, the Praxis test in science is not much more than I would expect an honor’s high school graduate from passing. If a college student needs to take the Praxis in science twice, they don’t need to be teaching science.

Society believes “those that can - do, and those that can’t - teach.” Unfortunately, that’s too often true in the science departments across the nation. Look at the job market in the sciences. They’re filled with foreign workers because USA students can’t do the jobs. Why can’t they? Ans: We’ve filled the science classes with everyone - even the kids that can barely read and write - much less do algebra. How can they learn real science in the 9th grade when they can’t pass Algebra I until they’re seniors? While I’m trying to teach them the difference between an opinion and a theory, they’re sleeping in class because they have no clue what I’m taking about (student definition: I’m boring). They’re taking up valuable time from kids who do want to learn and could learn if I wasn’t spending so much time on “classroom management.”

We need to develop classes that teach these kids job skills instead of forcing them into classes they have little chance to understand or pass. I understand there are a few schools that do this. They teach these kids basic reading, writing, and math in the morning and a trade in the afternoon. Well-trained plumbers, electricians, and body repair technicians make much more than I do. We need to expand the numbers of these schools and remove the requirements for all these extra science classes that are a waste of time for the general public.

By Robert

September 2, 2005 02:26 PM | Link to this

My dear David200, No one…. and I repeat no one thinks that $28,000 is a good annual salary or “big money.”

As a current teacher, I very much resent your description of teachers. I spent over 12 years in the corporate world and was promoted over the years to Director at a Fortune 500 company here in Atlanta. I made a choice to change careers and began teaching in 2002. You are an idiot to think that your description represents all teachers.

By Dan

September 2, 2005 03:02 PM | Link to this

Robert I applaud you on your new career choice and your ability to do so. But while David may have been a bit on the harsh side and certainly doesn’t represent all teachers, but there are plenty of college grads who would jump at 28 K for 200 days work, and I suspect his example is closer to average than yours

By Robert

September 2, 2005 04:29 PM | Link to this

Dan, if you think that teachers really do only “work” 200 days a year then you are sorely mistaken. Teachers MUST take classes to renew their certifications. For most school teachers, this means that they pay for classes out of their pocket and take these classes during the summer, in the evenings and sometimes on weekends.

In addition, the good teachers take advantage of any “free” hours to fine tune their lesson plans and create new and interesting activities for their students. The 200 days of work is really the time teachers spend with students for the most part. Teachers must do many, many things when not with students.

Do not be one of those clueless people that sing a false song about people wanting to be teachers to take the summer off. It is MOSTLY just not true.

By David200

September 5, 2005 12:51 PM | Link to this

My dear patronizing Robert, You may be an English teacher; you may be a social studies teacher; you may even be a math teacher, but you are not a science teacher. Science teachers are trained to refrain from making all encompassing claims to try and cover every situation. If you’ll re-read my post, you’ll see that I put quote marks around my “teachers.� This was to differentiate these people from real educators.

There are college seniors at universities (and I’ve even met some from UGA) who pass all their courses with “C’s� – cut classes, get drunk on Thursday and sober up on Sunday and plan on being teachers. And yes, there are teachers who spend almost no time out of class preparing for the next day and have got into teaching for the 200 day, $28k a year job. Few last, but we are so desperate for teachers we still hire them. My school’s math department agonized over giving one of these reprobates a failing grade on his student teaching because he couldn’t even be bothered to show up 15 minutes before school started. They agonized over it. I would have called the student’s supervising professor and asked him (or her) which professors passed this student teacher in his other education classes! That “teacher� never should have gotten that far. I’m confident that student teacher finally graduated, though. We need math teachers just as bad as we need science teachers. Somewhere right now that “teacher� is working in a classroom.

What you are describing is what quality teachers must do to look at themselves in the mirror. If you’re really honest with yourself and really look at fellow teachers in your school, you’ll see my definition of “teachers� are in every school. Now I agree their numbers aren’t that large, but they are large enough so that our regular parents can identify them and complain. This is why George Bush and Congress got up on their high horses and got NCLB passed. We did this to ourselves – not classroom teachers, but our professional administrators did because they didn’t do their jobs.

I’m sorry that my description of some of the people in our profession has infuriated you. I seriously doubt anyone who has spent the time to involve themselves in this blog would fit my description of a “teacher� … although people who fly off the handle … no, I’m not going to go there ;)

BTW, I spent over 21 years in the business world finally running my own business… and I did it with nothing but a high school diploma. I got my B.S Ed. 13 years ago to do this job, IAt present I have a specialist degree, and I am currently working on a Ph. D. at an out-of-pocket expense of over $6k per semester. I got into the profession for the same reason as you. The difference is that I don’t have blinders on… And I wouldn’t call anyone who spends his time on trying to improve education an idiot simply because he doesn’t share my views – although someone who leaps to conclusions without any facts does come close.

By Robert

September 5, 2005 04:16 PM | Link to this

David200, Just because you put quotations around a word, you assume that readers know what you are talking about? How crazy is that?

And, I do have a free choice to call someone an idiot if I see that they are changing education for the worse. If you cannot deal, then maybe you should stop coming to these blogs.

By David200

September 7, 2005 02:36 PM | Link to this

So Robert,

Acrording to you, insults are the way to handle disagreements on how subjects are taught? Since when? Oh that’s right, you want to discuss your rights. I guess that confirms my statements earlier; you’re not a science teacher. In that case using your own advise, why don’t you go back to your social studies/history classroom and teach your students about the responsibilites of citizenship when you teach them about their rights and leave the subject of science to individuals that know what they’re talking about? You obviously don’t know how to handle a debate on factual information as you didn’t attempt to refute any of my statements. Your response was merely to insult me. Apparently you don’t know how to respond.

And by the way for anyone else reading this, the way you get to be the director of any company, even a Fortune 500 company, is to be a buddy of the President or CEO. In other words, it’s not what you know; it’s WHO you know. It doesn’t require any business acumen or high intelligence.

Is that how you want a discussion to go, Robert?

By david200

September 7, 2005 03:56 PM | Link to this

So Robert,

You believe the way of handling a discussion on the high number of students assigned to a science class is to insult the poster, eh? OK, I’ll play by your rules.

First, I’m obviously right about your subject-matter “expertise” (Oh, I forgot. You don’t know what quote marks mean around a word. That’s sarcasm, Robert.). You’re a social studies/history teacher. Before you continue teaching your students about their rights, you really ought to read those books you bought when you went to college. The Founding Fathers believed in the rights and responsibilites of the citizens. For every right they had, there was a concommittent responsibility. You sound more like my teenage students spouting off about their rights than my peers.

Secondly, when debating someone whose position you oppose, you are supposed to discuss their factual errors. You don’t make personal insults. That’s what my teenage students do when they debate each other. Adults handle disagreements civilly. You sound more like my students than my peers.

Thirdly, your claim of being a Director of a Fortune 500 company doesn’t hold any credibility in the business world. That “smoke you blew” (Oh I forgot again, sorry. Robert, that means you didn’t know what you were talking about) does not impress anyone in the business community as it is common knowledge the way a person gets to be a Director is to be a buddy of the President and/or the CEO. That way, the person only has to say Aye! when asked to approve his/her buddy’s decisions. That’s how come the former execs of Delta got all those Golden Parachutes. Leo had the Board of Directors of Delta loaded with his cronies. A person gets to be a Director by who he knows, not what he knows. If you really are a teacher and not a high school student, tell people about all the things you PERSONALLY did in business to impress them. Telling people in the know you were a Director, only makes them laugh at you behind your back.

Fourthly, it seems likely that you are not a teacher; you’re the high-school age child of a teacher. You need to go back to class and work on your homework and leave adult discussions to adults.

By Robert

September 12, 2005 12:09 PM | Link to this

David200, or david200, or whatever other handle you use….

Your issues are greater than science class size. You need help.

My background is exactly as I have stated. It is really sad that you think that the only way to succeed in the corporate world is to know, or be buddies with, someone. I earned my promotions through hard work and results, not by being buddies with the CEO or anyone else. Specifically, companies recognize employees when they save them big money - which is what I did. I retired from the corporate world after about 13 years and chose to join educators to help our students.

Yes, I am a science teacher…. I teach physics to be specific. No, I do not teach English and I do make spelling errors from time to time. I have two Masters Degrees in Engineering and am certified in broad field science (this means that I passed the required State tests in all areas of science). I am currently enrolled in the PhD program at GA State, mostly for the fun of it. I have been awarded teacher of the year.

What is your background? What is your education? What do you teach? Share your creditials!!!!