Get Schooled

By PattiCake

August 30, 2005 11:34 AM | Link to this

I have just on qustion……

How can anyone with any sense rate one State against another when the rating system is not the same?

In other words….if one State only accounts for those students taking the SAT who get accepted to college…how can they be fairly compared to those States who account/make every graduating Senior take the SAT? Any person with any sense knows those numbers can not be compared.

In my daughters class last year many of the Students just showed up, put their names on the test, and then went to sleep. Yet those grades were “counted” when calculatin the average SAT score for that H.S. The whole SAT thing is so senseless…

By Nancy

August 30, 2005 11:36 AM | Link to this

Blame for the racial disparity will cover a multitude of excuses. But when families don’t take time to read (books, magazines, periodicals, etc.), they shut themselves out of the knowledge game. I learn everyday that folks would rather listen to bad music and watch trashy videos than to read something that will leave some knowledge. Blame the schools, blame society, blame the government - blaming parents for not doing their part would be too much like right. Reading is truly fundamental.

By Barbi

August 30, 2005 11:36 AM | Link to this

Ha Ha, Ken

By concerned

August 30, 2005 11:42 AM | Link to this

There’s a large amount of money in salaries and resources being used by the Georgia Department of Education to address the SAT scores. There are always semantics (aka word play) used in the DOE press releases to mask the actual failure of their efforts to move the state forward. Someone needs to investigate the huge increase in DOE employees under the current administration. What is the positive impact of these expensive changes?

By Paula

August 30, 2005 11:54 AM | Link to this

Remember, that the state of Georgia has one of the highest numbers of students in the nation taking the SAT’s. They are schools that have “contests” and reward students for taking the SAT, whether they are college-bound or not. On the other spectrum there are those school systems and schools who frown on and actually discourage “certain” groups of students from taking the SAT. There are “certain” students who don’t even record their school name on the SAT test, so their scores don’t count against their school.

This rating of SAT scores is a joke.

By Devil's Advocate

August 30, 2005 11:58 AM | Link to this

Yes, there is an racial gap, but there’s a national racial gap.

Put the gap in context. What’s the average white score? What’s the average black score?

One the reason that Georgia’s scores look so bad is the lower scores of black students. Georgia has a larger percentage of black students that most other states who have a large segment of their population taking the SAT.

If state’s demographic compositions were the same, our SAT scores probably wouldn’t look so bad.

By Ethell

August 30, 2005 12:01 PM | Link to this

I am pleased that this article has been written and I pray that it will continue to shed light on the educational “progress” of ALL of our students, however I am appalled at the response of “Ken” in making light of this disparity between black and white students. Many of our black (and other minority) students are not receiving the assistance they need both in and outside of the classroom to perform well on standardized tests. We can not nor should we belie this matter with social ignorance as to the usuage/inclusion of “ebonics” on standardized testing. Rather we need to offer both the financial and educational support for all of Georgia’s students. I would challenge “Ken” to offer more salient dialogue in context of exchanging views and opinion in the future.

By Aubretta Williams

August 30, 2005 12:02 PM | Link to this

I really don’t have a comment but I would like to know if you are comparing the new SAT scores or the old SAT scores. The new SAT scores are up to 2400… thanks

By Doug

August 30, 2005 12:05 PM | Link to this

National averages: “Composite scores for black students rose 7 points to 864, but that remains more than 200 points below the average composite score for white students.”

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050830/aponreus/satscores

It’s not just a GA problem, and I don’t think there’s much government can do about it.

By Doug

August 30, 2005 12:09 PM | Link to this

Sorry. The computer system butchered the URL. I’ll try again. Link

By Peppy Juarez

August 30, 2005 12:16 PM | Link to this

Ethil,

If your salient I’m buyinit.

By Jim

August 30, 2005 12:31 PM | Link to this

Despite what is done in our schools we should never lose sight that our children’s education is our, the parents, reponsibility. Our schools are only an extension of our community and reflect exactly what that community provides.

If we are to change our schools we have to change our habits. The time we spend with our offspring dictates what our schools have to work with.

Talented faculty and teachers aren’t enough… let’s give them the best of us. We’ll won’t be sorry.

Turn the TV off. Excite you imagination. Do something your children will be proud of you for. They will follow your lead, naturally.

By Lynne

August 30, 2005 12:32 PM | Link to this

I think that one of the biggest reasons for the disparity between the races in terms of SAT scores is motivation. Unfortunately, many African-American students do not consider going to college as being a part of their future. They don’t see the SAT as being important - so they don’t prepare for it and end up performing poorly on it. I see too many African-American students going straight from high school into the work force - with the encouragement of their parents.

By Bob

August 30, 2005 12:34 PM | Link to this

This is the absurdity: Patti doesn’t mind if Georgia is last…HER big concern, is racial parity. And that’s part of the problem! We’re so damned obsessed with social engineering here, that we’ve come to believe THAT is the mission of our educational systems rather than EDUCATION. Yes, there is a cultural disparity across this nation. There is a SAT score disparity between Asian-Americans and whites as well. Some cultures honor the value of education and learning more than others. BUT, until we re-focus our teaching resources back upon leaning skills over the drive to produce little social activists—-Georgia’s scores will be screwed. And who gets hurt under the current school philosophy of “socializing” priority instead of course work? The futures of these children. Stop using our schools as political factories, and get back to doing the job they were built for!

By amy

August 30, 2005 12:52 PM | Link to this

Bob - I couldn’t agree more. Well said my friend.

By RF

August 30, 2005 12:56 PM | Link to this

I’m a high school teacher, and I see teachers trying every single day to help kids learn the skills the state says they must learn. We strive to educate them, and earlier comments about educational priorities in cultural groups explain a great deal. If all groups in Georgia valued education (and believe me the poor don’t value it), then we wouldn’t score so low. Also there’s the fact that the comparison between states is erroneous because there is no set of equal factors to base score comparisons on, yet the media does it every year…

By Jim

August 30, 2005 12:57 PM | Link to this

Every article on Georgia’s SAT standing ought to include Georgia’s NAEP standing as well. The NAEP is much more valid for comparing the performance of various states. We’re somewhere in the 30s on the NAEP, I think - nothing to shout about, but nor is the kind of embarassment that is going have the governor attempt to reconfigure high schools into high SAT score machines.

By David

August 30, 2005 01:00 PM | Link to this

To Devil’s Advocate:

I saw an article that places Georgia dead in the middle of the USA when comparing average black scores and average white scores on the old SAT. In fact, a Harvard professor complained about Georgia’s SAT scores when African-American Georgians scored better than African-American Mass. students.

Hypocrisy raises its head again.

By Patti Ghezzi

August 30, 2005 01:00 PM | Link to this

Hey all, I updated the post to include national figures. It took me a while to find them in my massive press kit.

The reason I’m focusing on the average for African American students is that when you look at those scores in a vacuum, without the comparisons most everyone agrees are unfair, the scores are just alarmingly low.

By former ga resident

August 30, 2005 01:04 PM | Link to this

Georgia spent a ton of money, time and government resources to make sure gay people can’t marry. What are we doing to help johnny and jane read? What are this states priorities: political posturing or education. Well Sonny?

By Thu

August 30, 2005 01:08 PM | Link to this

I am glad this is getting the attention it needs, both parents and students need to take responsibility for their own efforts. In GA, however we have the you owe me mentality where everyone is due something for anything but work. Let’s have wages parsed out by effort and input versus attendance or titles. You have to play to get paid.

By Robert

August 30, 2005 01:08 PM | Link to this

Comparing SAT averages by State is STUPID! Why does the media even waste our time with this muck? Can you say “sensationalism?”

Different states handle these tests differently. Most students in GA think that they have to take the SAT even if they know that they are not college bound. Gee! I wonder what this does to the GA SAT average? Duh!

And, many states prefer the ACT over the SAT and so their only students taking the SAT are the “better” students that are going to out-of-state colleges that require the SAT. So again, how can you compare that state average to GA where all students end up taking it????

Ranking states by SAT is stupid and needs to go away.

By MissHeavenSong

August 30, 2005 01:15 PM | Link to this

This is just awful i feel so sorry for the children, but they really have to put something into learning, to get something out of it. Hopefully it’ll all get better before it gets any worse than what it already is. I totally agree with former ga resident start putting the children 1st! How in the h3ll do you tie for LAST!

By JG

August 30, 2005 01:25 PM | Link to this

In a state in which the predominant mentality seems to be that college is a “right,” rather than the reality which is that college is a privilege, one should be wholly unsurprised at the low SAT average. We are encouraging too many students to take the SAT and have for decades. A significant number of those taking the test either lack the inclination or ability, financial or otherwise, to actually go to college. This is a major source of the “drag-down” on the state’s scores.

By Melody

August 30, 2005 01:26 PM | Link to this

At the end of the day, parents need to PARENT!!! Parents take an interest in your child’s future and stop being their friend. Be a friend when they are all grown up and positively contributing to society. If there’s not enough evidence in today’s world to that EDUCATION is a critical component to anyone’s sucess, just stop and think about your life for a moment……My thoughts exactly!!!!

By Smurfette

August 30, 2005 01:28 PM | Link to this

Could Ken be from Kentucky?

By Cornelius

August 30, 2005 01:28 PM | Link to this

If the parents would take away all the trashy stuff on TV and make these kids pickup a book and do some reading, they would be better off and more productive to society. As an older African American father with kids, I tell my kids all the time that they are going to be productive members of society. The SAT needs to be publicized the same way as the music videos and other trash these kids prefer to listen too. Most of them are losing touch with reality.

By allen

August 30, 2005 01:32 PM | Link to this

welll….since on the average they kids today are not smart enough lets rasie the minimum wage so they don’t have to suffer and we can just blame the government and society and the color of thier skin or maybe their sexual orientation…better yet it was thier religon…..make them study stop passing them…HEY THE WORLD NEEDS DITCH DIGGERS…..I know I make my kids learn…there is no free lunch or free rides.

By Jake

August 30, 2005 01:32 PM | Link to this

Good points Ethel. It looks like our (Georgian) white students are not receiving the assistance they need to perform well on standardized tests. It appears minority scores need a more global approach to close the racial gap, but Georgia should find out why their white students are underperforming national averages while the black students aren’t.

By Angela

August 30, 2005 01:40 PM | Link to this

If you compare Georgia’s score with that of states with a similar participation rate and similar demographics of test takers, Georgia is still last. Maryland, Virginia, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, and Delaware have participation rates ranging from 71% to 92%. Georgia’s test takers were 62% white and 38% minority. Those states ranged from 58% to 70% white and 30-42% minority. We also award more college prep diplomas every year than we have students taking the SAT, so we have more students on the college prep track than take the SAT. Too many students enter high school unprepared for the course work and lacking the study skills to catch up. That is the fault of students, parents, teachers, and administrators to varying degrees. To RF, I hope you have no poor students because you apparently have no respect for them and their families. Many successful people have come from poor families. Disrespect and disregard for our education system can be found across the board.

By Bob

August 30, 2005 01:41 PM | Link to this

Tee…..it was a joke….lighten up..

By mr. mark

August 30, 2005 01:45 PM | Link to this

the problem with the disparity in scores amoung our black & white youths is a serious issue that needs to be addressed. White high schoolers graduate and go to college, that is the thinking in their homes. African American students graduate high school just to get a job. College is only an option if you are talented in sports. Parents of African American youths need to instill in them the importance of college and stay on top of them to finish high school and continue their education. sincerly,

By Pattycake

August 30, 2005 01:47 PM | Link to this

“What are we doing to help johnny and jane read?”

The schools have held nothing back in making sure students have all that is needed to help them succeed. Now it’s up to the student and parents. Period. What more could anyone possibly ask of our education system?

By NoSurprise

August 30, 2005 01:50 PM | Link to this

Why should this be breaking news. Everyone knows we have a poor education system. That is why my child is in private school.

By Doug (Atlanta)

August 30, 2005 02:01 PM | Link to this

The main problem is not the disparity between races. The primary issue is the disparity between incomes.

Of course, the disparity between incomes disproportionately falls upon blacks. But the divide among races is merely a result of the class divide. I’d bet that the largely white school districts in north Georgia fare as badly on the SAT as blacks.

We should stop looking for racial issues and focus on solutions that deal with the real problem - poverty.

Unfortunately, the poor will probably always lag behind the wealthy in educational achievement. Perhaps the best thing to do is adopt tax and economic policies that ensure a large and dynamic middle class.

By Legolasgirl21

August 30, 2005 02:05 PM | Link to this

This is wrong. I know that this is so wrong, that the SAT needed to be changed.

By Sandy

August 30, 2005 02:10 PM | Link to this

One of the main reasons are SAT scores are lower is because of HOPE. It inspires more kids to go to college, which in turns, lowers the SAT scores.

We have kids thinking of going to college because of HOPE, when these kids may never have thought of it before. In order to go to college, you must take the SAT.

So, we have more kids taking the SAT and more diversity among our scores because of HOPE.

I think Georgia’s doing fine. If you break down the scores in the state to school districts, you’ll see a difference.

Also, if you take out the scores of kids who do not enroll in college their freshman year, you’d see an increase in the average SAT score as well.

Sandy, Roswell

By Doug

August 30, 2005 02:17 PM | Link to this

NoSurprise,

You’re right, we do have a poor education system. A large proportion of public school students are poor because many parents that can afford to put their kids in private school do so.

The quality of education available in public school is just as high as the quality of education available in private school. However, many students in public school have parents who do not value education or lack the resources to give their children every advantage.

If there were no private schools or home schooling in the country, test scores for public schools would skyrocket. I think parents have a right to send their children to private school (many do it solely for religious reasons), but I expect those parents to still support public education and refrain from denigrating public schools and public educators.

By daisy921

August 30, 2005 02:22 PM | Link to this

As an all “A” student entirely through K-12 graduating High School in 2000, with all of the SAT preparations such as help-books, flash cards, courses and tutoring that my parents poured $ into, I still did not “ACE” my SATs. However I got into my 1st college of choice and now am employed with an international company, and guess what while interviewing for jobs, not one of them ever asked “By the way, what did you score on the SATs?”

And to agree with one of the earlier posts, Many high school students are pressured into taking the SAT even if they don’t feel they are college material. It is important to remember that everyone is not college material and young people should not feel as is they are forced into a future. Our state’s Technical Colleges do not require the SAT for admission, therefore if a H.S. student feels that a Technical College is a better fit for them, maybe they should bypass the SAT.

By Nancy2

August 30, 2005 02:25 PM | Link to this

Doug,

That’s a crock of crap! I’m sick and tired of everyone using the race card followed by the disparity of income card to justify poor performance by those that choose not to perform. EVERYONE is supposed to go to school to learn and those that don’t don’t. My husband was a public school teacher in a low income school for years and was continually dismayed by parents and students who stated that they didn’t have the $99 for a Hooked on Phonics CD but showed up to state their case in $200 tennis shoes and a $500 leather jacket. Priorities are not a matter of the class system. Priorities are born of personal decision making. You can choose to make your education a priority or you can choose not to. It is a choice of personal responsibility. Period.

By Jake

August 30, 2005 02:26 PM | Link to this

Hey Doug, any chance those poor people are wading in the shallow end of the gene pool? That they’re poor, at least in part, because they’re below average in IQ, so their kids are too and they don’t go to college so they wind up poorer and having more kids with low IQ’s. You think if we gave them some money and sent them to Holy Innocents, their SAT scores would go up?

By HowCaresNotMe

August 30, 2005 02:27 PM | Link to this

Maybe the average black person is just dumb? You can’t teach a stick to talk, no matter how hard you try.

By Religion Sucks

August 30, 2005 02:28 PM | Link to this

If the schools didn’t try to teach creationism or intelligent design or what ever the hell the bible beaters are calling it these days and taught real science and math skills kids need for real world jobs instead of having prayer meetings. Jesus doesn’t pay the bills math, science and being literate do!

By Mr.Mischif

August 30, 2005 02:28 PM | Link to this

I am a high school sophmore at a South Fulton county high school. For my seventh grade year, I got up at 5:55 to go to north county to get a better education. It’s no wonder why kids on north county do so much better: they have MONEY!!! Their parents can afford to hire a private tutor to help them on the SAT, can afford to send their child to private school, can afford to give their children a brand new Jaguar if they make a 2200 on the new SAT; however, below the $300,000 house price line, the smart ones are the biggest victims of all. Racism for the most part is gone, but the powers that be have found a new way to segregate: it’s called Alpharetta. So therefore we must put up with substandard equipment, the teachers must put up with 25, 30 roughnecks to a class, and like it. And if you’re actually planning to go to college, you must pray to God that your first-choice school is needing a little bit of color and accept you; otherwise, you’ll be stuck at a dead-end job until you die.

By Robin, Atlanta

August 30, 2005 02:31 PM | Link to this

Ignorance crosses all lines… look at Ken.

By ColdHardTruth

August 30, 2005 02:33 PM | Link to this

It is funny how many people immediately start blaming the way Georgia conducts and reports the test. If we’re doing it differently than the rest of the nation, let’s change! We all know the rules and rating proceedures going into it!

You can’t dispute the outcome of a football game because you didn’t know how many points a touchdown was worth or that you were supposed to have more than 5 players on the field.

We are spending many times more money, in total and per student, today than at any other time in history with little to no improvement. Black, white, asian, whatever.

I suppose we’ll just have to shut down every non essential subject and extracurricular activty until our students can read and do simple math. Where these kids are headed, poetry reading will not help them earn a living!

Maybe too much time and money was spent teaching kids to put on condoms and encouraging parents to hook thier kids on drugs.

By Kathleen

August 30, 2005 02:37 PM | Link to this

The reason for the low scores is most students in GA take the SAT to get into college & use Hope money. Most of the students get in and cannot keep the Hope because of LOW GRADES. Other states do not just give away money to students(as Georgia loves to do). College is NOT a right it is a privlege you have to work hard for. Some students are not cut out to take the SAT or go to college.Not all of us will be doctors or lawyers. Some of our youth do not have that type of mental capacity. This is just common sense. HOPE $ was given to our students to keep them in this state and generate awful sums of money to our colleges. What a sham and a shame for this state.

By Cammie

August 30, 2005 02:40 PM | Link to this

“What more could anyone possibly ask of our education system?” Are you a member of the teacher’s union or what?

I send my child to private school so I can have input in what type of education my child gets. In public schools, though teachers and administrators beg parents to be more involved, the system is set up so that parents have little to no participation in the decisions about their child’s education. They don’t get to choose the school, the system, or the teacher. Parents don’t even get to choose what “trackâ€? their child is put on. If schools want more parental involvement, then they should support our legislators in passing bills for charter schools, open enrollment and even (close your eyes if you don’t think you can handle it) vouchers.

Yeah, I said the V word. We need to do whatever it takes to get our kids to enjoy learning instead of dreading it.

By Chris

August 30, 2005 02:41 PM | Link to this

GOOD JOB NANCY2

By RF

August 30, 2005 02:44 PM | Link to this

Mr.Mischif hit the nail on the head. We’re falling behind because too many kids don’t care about education, the parents don’t care, and those who do are lost in the shuffle. I teach in a poorer district, and let me tell you the biggest battle we face every day is dealing with those who don’t care, don’t want to be here, and only come because the court orders them to, mom needs a check, or there’s nothing better to do. No matter how we argue it, until education matters to the kids, and until we can boot them out if it doesn’t, nothing will change…

By Lisa

August 30, 2005 02:44 PM | Link to this

The schools have held nothing back in making sure students have all that is needed to help them succeed. Now it’s up to the student and parents. Period. What more could anyone possibly ask of our education system?

We can ask for teachers that are interested in teaching. My daughter is a junior and has a teacher that gives the class 15-20 mins of “busy work” then tells them to do what ever they want for the remainder of the class. This is a GEOMETERY teacher! Most of the teachers can’t speak proper English. Pacific for specific, Ax’ed for asked, etc. And some of these are English teachers. School administrators and teachers have gotten so caught up in being politically correct, they have diluted the entire education system.

By HighSchooler

August 30, 2005 02:44 PM | Link to this

First off, Ken,what are you even doing here? You are just making people mad and playing around while the rest of us are trying to discuss a serious issue here. Either get real or do us all a favor and find something else to do with your time.

Second,I agree. It isn’t the color our skin that determines how well we do on the SAT’s. I am african american and,though i didnt take the SAT’s yet i took the PSAT’s,and I scored in the 90th percentile so that is not the case. But that has something to do with it though. i know it has been saida thousand times but I’ll say it again. It has to do with our mentality. I have friends who are like really close to being geniuses but they arent going to college because they dont believe they can make it.They think that “blacks” arent good enough. ACH! Sorry thats the bell… I will try and be on again later to finish. Peace

By Doug

August 30, 2005 02:46 PM | Link to this

Well, Jake, I was one of those poor students. I have an IQ in the 99th percentile and now practice law. To get through college and law school, I had to fund a lot of my own education. I worked part-time during high school to pay for SAT prep materials, graphing calculators, college application fees, etc. I then worked full-time in college while graduating in four years. My GPA suffered from my work schedule, but my IQ allowed me to do well enough on the LSAT to get into a top law school.

I do think that if you put infants from poor parents in foster homes with parents who send their kids to Holy Innocents the SAT scores would go up.

Nancy2, priorities and poor decision-making are certainly related to family income. In a couple of my posts I indicated that I don’t think there’s a lot we can do about the lower performance among the poor. We should still offer a quality education, but we can’t change the parents’ priorities. I do think we should try within reason to limit the effect of bad parental decisions on children. That may mean more test prep in public schools, more education of parents, and more financial aid for college (HOPE is great in this regard).

My main point is that RACE is not the main predictor of low test scores, its income. Whatever the reasons or solutions, we need to be aware of that fact.

A quality education ought to be available to all. All won’t take advantage of it, but it should be there.

By Terri

August 30, 2005 02:48 PM | Link to this

My heart was felt with so much disappointment with the comments that I read .I don’t think that this is a black are white problem but an American problem .I have three very smart kids in the Clayton Co.School System .And it seems to me that the teachers in this area are trying to be more of a freind and cool than an adult either the teacher are fresh out of college are should have retirer 10yrs.ago When school started this year kids were getting move from one place to another due to not enough teacher resigning on for another school year.The police department and the board of education at one point are another have aired out their dirt on T.V. and openly disrespected each other .And now we are all surprise about how out of control our kids are. COME ON WHEN ARE WE GOING TO LEARN WE CAN ONLY BE AS GOOD AS OUR LEADERS

By Amy

August 30, 2005 02:53 PM | Link to this

The reason we have low averages on SAT scores is due to the fact that a higher majority of our children take the test. So in reality we shouldn’t feel that bad about it.

By George Bradford

August 30, 2005 02:54 PM | Link to this

This is an embarassing day for Georgia. And it’s made worse by Gov. Perdue’s “look at the bright side” reaction. No one can explain away, rationalize, excuse or otherwise deny the reality of the numbers. When Oklahoma and Arkansas have out performed you on an academic test, there’s no way to sugar coat it. This is an embarassing day for Georgia. Perhaps now the citizens will demand better public schools for all children and insist that years of neglecting public education be reversed and remedied.

By Lisa

August 30, 2005 02:55 PM | Link to this

Lisa—don’t judge us all by the few who makes mistakes. There are some bad ones, but generally Georgia has good teachers. There will always be those who care more about politics, but let me tell you from being in education for many years that they don’t last long. The demands placed on teachers today weed out the non-caring pretty quickly. I care about my job, but it gets discouraging sometimes when I spend all my time and energy trying to get kids to want to learn who care more about their expensive shoes and who said what about who than they do about working toward a goal in life.

By Mo

August 30, 2005 02:55 PM | Link to this

Is Ken serious? Is that how he spells and talks for real????

By Jane Kitson

August 30, 2005 02:55 PM | Link to this

Wasn’t there a group of parents who were pushing to get the school calendar year to start at a later date in August? The final reason no one would vote for this was “our school’s SAT scores have improved significantly as we have headed back to school earlier each year in August” While this may be true, I laughed when I read this and said: Perhaps we should see when the highest scoring states are heading back into the classroom ( in August or September)and take our cue from them.
It is an embarrasment to me personally, as I travel across the United States and hear my clients rib me about our state scores when my son (class of 2005)scored 200 points higher than the average student in Iowa…which was at the top of the list. He has attended school his entire life in Georgis’s PUBLIC schools. OOOPS that’s right, I am an educator and did foster a love of reading, limits on TV, curfew, responsibiity with part time jobs, church attendance and respect for his teachers…perhaps that helped?

By mark

August 30, 2005 02:56 PM | Link to this

I didn’t know Georgia requires all students to take the S.A.T., even if they are not going to college. That doesn’t make sense, while most of the kids just want to graduate, why make them take the test and bring down the results for everyone in Georgia.

By Doug

August 30, 2005 03:00 PM | Link to this

Good idea, ColdHardTruth. Let’s discourage students we don’t think will do well from taking the test out of fear that we’ll look bad in some meaningless state-by-state comparison instead of encouraging them to take a step towards post-secondary education.

Are these the “priorities” you private school people are telling me about?

By Meika

August 30, 2005 03:01 PM | Link to this

They need to drop that because it ‘s only gonna get lower and it’s a big part of societies problems and personally i’m sick of it.

By jbd

August 30, 2005 03:01 PM | Link to this

It’s scary how many of the above comments seek to blame the problem on someone/something other than individual responsibility and good decision making by the student and parent. I read an article the other day which was titled “We look like fools to the rest of the world” in which the author pointed out that the US is so caught up in being politically correct, not stepping on toes and carrying a chip on our minority shoulders that we have lost sight of the forest and the trees. Other countries see a problem and fix it while the chips fall where they will. Why do we force folks who don’t want an education to attend school and become a disruption to those who want to learn. Let them stay ignorant. But wait. We can’t do that because they will then become dependent on the government dole for support and we lack the fortitude to say tough, you had the chance, you should have taken it. We as a state and nation are convinced no person’s plight could possibly be there fault. It has to be poverty, abuse as a child, racial discrimination or some other excuse. It doesn’t surprise me that Georgia is last. We will stay last as long as we have our current mentality.

By Stephanie02

August 30, 2005 03:02 PM | Link to this

Since every parent seems to think that their kid needs to be on medication for eveything, ADD, Anxiety, Depression…….. maybe that’s why the students do so poorly. Get them off all of the drugs and they might do just fine!

By spencer

August 30, 2005 03:03 PM | Link to this

Georgia has never lacked for apologist to explain why the SAT scores of Georgia students are always near the bottom when compared with other states. They will remain there until the leaders of our state do two things -make the financial committment necessary to improve our schools and take the management of the educational system out of the hands of professional educators.

By PRach

August 30, 2005 03:05 PM | Link to this

First of all i’d like to say to DEVIL’S ADVOCATE that the white kids aren’t any smarter than us and i think that you’re very ignorant for blaming poor SAT scores on black students as if we are they only one’s who attend school. Moving on, I think that the scores are so low because the state of GA and their educators aren’t preparing students properly for the SAT, so something needs to be done.

By Patti Ghezzi

August 30, 2005 03:06 PM | Link to this

Clarification: Georgia doesn’t require students to take the SAT, but my gosh an awful lot do.

I’m perplexed. Far more students take the SAT than go onto college. Why would a student spend money and get up on a Saturday to take such a test?

By Concerned Dad

August 30, 2005 03:07 PM | Link to this

DId anyone notice that ‘HighSchooler’ posted during the school day? Could that be the problem? Rather than learning, this kid is reading assanine blogs. Also, to all the teachers out there.WHy arent you teaching right now instead of posting on this stupid blog?

By TC

August 30, 2005 03:10 PM | Link to this

WHO CARES ABOUT THE SAT TEST??? Let’s focus on the REAL issues…….CRCT test. The whole moto “no kids left behind” is a bunch of crap. If you think the drop out rate is high now regardless of race or income…..this is a major issue nationally, state, and local levels. Example how do you explain to a kid that is a “B” average but then fails the reading portion by 9 points and spends all summer getting ready to retake the test. And yes they did pass the second time. My point is, why should OUR KIDS pay for the schools punishment with the state???? That is basically all that test does for them and GA has had 4-5 yrs to work out the bugs. They can not get results back to schools in a timely fashion at all…….why?? because they out source to a company to grade the test……therefore you have to wait even longer, and when you retest it is maybe after the new school year starts or damn close. NOW….who is suffering OUR KIDS!!!! IF this was fixed maybe SAT scores would not be at the national bottom.

By Lisa

August 30, 2005 03:11 PM | Link to this

don’t judge us all by the few who makes mistakes

Unfortunately, the geometry teacher and the “English” spoken were just small examples of the teachers that we are up against in Henry County. I think we have the second lowest scores in the state and I can assure you that it is a direct result of the teaching and administration in the county. When I questioned the credentials of a foreign English teach that couldn’t put an proper sentence together, I was told by the principal that he would not “get into that with me.”

By Stephanie02

August 30, 2005 03:20 PM | Link to this

Keep in mind….”Those that can do, and those that can’t teach.” And from my experiences in college, knowing those that were education majors were not people who I trust teaching my children. If the majority of the teachers were in for the love of teaching children we would be in business.

By Terri

August 30, 2005 03:20 PM | Link to this

I’m not saying that the teachers are the reasons the kids are doing so bad .I remember when I was in high school if you were a parent are was over 19 years of age you couldn’t get up every morning to go to school like you were still a child but they kicked your but out of there and you went to night school .See when I asked why my kids school made the need to improve list they told me because they counted the kids that were locked up are were out having their 2nd are 3rd child .Most of these kids have done more than some of the teachers and have had a fast life and they are teaching the other kids how to get on the fast track

By Mr. W

August 30, 2005 03:20 PM | Link to this

This issue is so simplistic, but so very complex. Everyone is right. Race has nothing to do with this topic. As a high school English Teacher in APS, simply give me the resources I need to do my job and its done. Those include technology, supplies, and students that HALF want to learn. That is the problem. Most parents are too ignorant and self-consumed to really be a part of their students education, especially in the lower socio-economic strata. This does not mean those that do not earn a specific amount of money necessarily, but those whose mentality and perception is that of a gutter or alley rat. I have those same people that think working a part-time job now instead of focusing on school hurts our kids as well as the family structure not being in place as it used to be. Let the parents be parents and the teachers can return to being teachers that really work with students, not worrying about the emotional needs of the child because the parents are back in place. Moreover, too many bureaocratic influences exist in all parts that prevent the teacher from really doing what needs to be done. Finally, fix the tax funding system that all students have access to the same level of resources. After all, right now, I do not have access to a working xerox machine to make copies of information for my students, let alone a set of working computers, but hey, even worse, I am floating again for the second year.

By ColdHardTruth

August 30, 2005 03:23 PM | Link to this

Doug,

Do you think that perhaps a low household income and low test scores are BOTH results of the same behavior? Including, but not limited to, bad choices regarding education opportunities, work ethic, drugs and other substance abuse, spending habits, etc.? And not to mention, being told over and over again by people like you that they can’t possibly be successful or ever make anything of themselves?

If you simply “handed over” a pickup truck load of money to these “parents” (or “parent” as is many times the case), the vast majority would be right back where they are now within a few years. Simply “having money” doesn’t make you smarter, but generally it is the smarter of us that have the money.

You can’t force some people to wise up and take advantage of all of the opportunity out there. The unfortunate part is these same idiots have no trouble figuring out how birth litters of kids to dump into the system.

By A GA teacher

August 30, 2005 03:24 PM | Link to this

I am a teacher in GA. One problem that our school faces is Parental Accountability. Our school has come up over 20 points on the CRCT test in the past 2 years and have taught our hearts our preparing these children for a test. I have parents tell me that it’s not their responsibility to help their child learn to read, etc. It IS. A parent is a child’s best teacher. Sadly, some parents don’t take that seriously. Our black student population scores much lower on the CRCT test and SAT in our county. They are taught the same information in the same classroom. I don’t know what the answer to that problem is, but it would make an interesting study.

By Doug

August 30, 2005 03:26 PM | Link to this

jbd and others,

If a child grows up in a family that doesn’t have the resources or priorities necessary for that child to succeed academically, whose fault is it? The parents’. Who suffers? The child. This individual responsibility stuff works a lot better when we aren’t dealing with children suffering from parental decisions that affect them far into adulthood.

What’s wrong with trying to understand the reasons for low performance on standardized tests and doing something about it?

“We as a state and nation are convinced no person’s plight could possibly be there fault.” Really? Is that true, or does it just sound good to you.

“It has to be poverty, abuse as a child, racial discrimination or some other excuse.” Are you saying that nobody ever faces obstacles as a result of poverty, abuse, or discrimination? If not, what about those that do face those obstacles? Why not try to remove unnecessary obstacles or help them overcome those obstacles?

By Terri

August 30, 2005 03:29 PM | Link to this

JBD , I LOVED YOUR COMMENT . THANKS

By Kim In Cali.

August 30, 2005 03:31 PM | Link to this

Yo Ken, you can’t really be that uneducated to not be able to spell. Come on now, if that’s the case, who helped you fill out all the forms to get all your free money?

By RF

August 30, 2005 03:33 PM | Link to this

Stephanie02—if you CAN, then why don’t you come on in and do it?? I don’t have any idea where you went to school, but at GSU in my day those who were in education WANTED to be there and were looking forward to it. Why do we always blame the teachers for kids not caring?? Come on in and try teaching for a few days—you won’t last a week!!

By Elwood

August 30, 2005 03:34 PM | Link to this

Doug has made the only valid points in this entire discussion, and everyone who thinks they disagree with him have been misreading his posts. Guess they need to go back to school!

By Sly

August 30, 2005 03:39 PM | Link to this

WOW ! Really! African Americans scored lower on the SATs!? How’d they do in the jammin’ a basketball test. Or the let’s scam the government out of extra handouts exam. Or the my daddy’s in jail again so give me more money test. This is a crazy world. Let’s rag on whitey, since he’s apathetic to all these issues and doesn’t give a sh*t if others in the community want to go down the rat holes in life. C’mon people. Let’s all get along.

By Ernest

August 30, 2005 03:39 PM | Link to this

College Board Profile of 2005 College Bound Seniors

For those who like data, see the above link from the College Board website. As someone mentioned earlier, the greatest predictors of success on the SAT is income and the education level of the parents. The is a LOT of interesting information here.

By ColdHardTruth

August 30, 2005 03:40 PM | Link to this

Doug-

Stupidity is a hard “obstacle” to remove for somebody. And simply giving money to the parents (usually the biggest “obstacle”) is not the answer. Yes, parental decisions affect children well into adulthood. So do many other decisions - made by parents, children, and others in the community. What’s your answer? Pass along every important decision in a child’s life to the public school system? Why stop there? Let’s let the schools decide what jobs the students should take, where they should live, when they should have children, how to make sure they can financially support retirement, pay for their own funeral, what to eat for dinner (obesity being such a huge problem and all), what drugs to take, and how to make sure they put their pants on frontways in the morning. All of these decisions you think the government should make for people, but the moment someone brings up personl responsibility and the opportunity to decide one’s OWN future in our great free society, you just simply can’t believe Americans can do it on their own. I must be miserable to have such a negative outlook on things.

By Terri

August 30, 2005 03:44 PM | Link to this

COULD I PLEASE GET SOME OF THE TEACHERS TO RESPOND TO WHAT I HAVE SAID ARE HAVE I JUST BEEN MIS INFORMED

By Brown Person

August 30, 2005 03:46 PM | Link to this

I don’t point the finger at race as being the sole reason as to why blacks do not fare better. I point the fingers at the parents who do not motivate their children to perform well in school. Economics has nothing to do with it. I grew up wearing mostly hand-me-downs which should shed some light on our income during that time. But my mother motivated me to do my best from the first day that I started kindergarten. She nor my father had stellar academic careers in high school but once I set the bar at a young age, they never let me dip below it. I once got a 91 on my report card and my mother treated it as though it were an F. Most parents, more specifically black parents, are just happy if there child makes a passing grade. In response, most of the black kids only strive to achieve passing grades and never press toward the mark and fully exert their mental capacity. I do not think that all of the black kids who score poorly lack the intelligence to do better, they just have never had the motivation to do better. They follow a generational trend of parents and grandparents who were not motivated and fall into the same trap themselves. I know I said that it was not about race in the beginning, but black people need to wake up and realize that Martin Luther King, Medgar Evers, Malcolm X, etc. did not die so that we could sit at home and collect welfare checks to go and spend them on Jordan’s, Polo, FUBU, etc., etc, etc! Don’t blame the teachers without looking in the mirror first.

By Manny T

August 30, 2005 03:47 PM | Link to this

Students, regardless of race, should focus on getting better. In the long run, the improvement is more important than the score if you take the test more than once.

As someone who has taught SAT prep in multiple states, I would recommend to all students interested in college to work on their entire college profile. While the link to Fairtest Fairtest SAT press release is now gone from the links on the left, there are flaws with the test. However, any student that gets better over time with his/her school work, standardized testing, and overall college profile will have a good chance to go to college.

If you work with kids that are interested in getting better (even if they start with horrible SAT scores) then the odds of them outperforming their test scores and being successful in college (and in the long run) are good. The challenge comes in developing good general thinking skills that are harder to test.

The HOPE scholarship is a decent idea, but it suffers and the reputation of GA students takes a hit when the criteria is based on giving out grades of B for breathing instead of B=above average. This could be fixed by limiting HOPE scholarships to the top X% of students in a school (based on grades in core subjects.)

By Marlon

August 30, 2005 03:48 PM | Link to this

Ken Thanks for your ignorance and racial slander. I am so happy my family raised me in the north.People here like you give input and complain,but forget its the future of the children: black and white etc. News Flash!!! Oh my hispanics going to be the marjority in future. Ken I know your hypothalmas that controls your moods is not that ignorant!!! Come on now English 101 never had ebonics. Maybe it will be better if we help all races to make a differance for a better tomorrow for our future leaders.

By Stephanie02

August 30, 2005 03:53 PM | Link to this

Like I said RF… If more teachers were in it for the love of teaching, we’d be in business. Obviously, you are so keep doing your job… I have great respect for a teacher who loves teaching and is committed to educating students; I am completely disgusted with teachers like the one Lisa spoke of that gives the students busy work and free time in Geometry class. I am not teacher because I followed my passion, and teachers should be teachers because of the same reason.

By Ryan

August 30, 2005 03:53 PM | Link to this

All I hear is excuses from every comment on this board. Excuses and excuses as to why we can’t read, speak, and write. The fact is the majority of parents in this state don’t take any responsibility for their kids and place all the blame on the “school system”. Taking into consideration how poor the education in the US has become compared to other countries, the fact that Georgia (and the whole South for that matter) is ranked so low is absolutely embarrassing. Maybe it is actaully time to consider year-round schooling. As for the black scores being so low that surprises even me. I mean 864 is bordering upon mental retardation.

By Albert

August 30, 2005 03:53 PM | Link to this

I used to send my children to public school. We would schedule a work day and no parents would show up.

I now send my children to private school. We schedule a work day and parents are everywhere. The parents fix the ball field. The parents wash the buses. The parents clean the bathrooms, the parents the parents the parents. Get the picture?

You go to a public school in an area of well to do parents and what do you see….parents at the ball games, parents at work days, parents at fund raisers. Parents at PTA meetings.

You go to a public school in a poor community and what do you see….. well it sure ain’t parents at the ball games. You never see a poor parent offering to help in the concession stand. You see police with guns so the thug students don’t kill the students who want to learn.

Being poor is NO excuse for being trash.

By Doug

August 30, 2005 03:56 PM | Link to this

ColdHardTruth,

Where have I said a poor student can’t succeed. In one of my posts, I explained that I myself was poor but succeeded.

On a side note, I think you (and others) are overstating the importance of intelligence. Certainly, it’s better to be intelligent than not, but family income and values is more important to success than intelligence.

I honestly think you are looking for excuses not to try to help those less fortunate. It’s a shame.

When did I say that just giving money to these families would help them all? It wouldn’t. Lack of financial resources is sometimes a factor, but it’s not always a factor and rarely is it the only factor. Sometimes it’s a problem with the larger culture (for example, strong anti-intellectualism among rural whites). Or lack of parental involvement with the child. Or a lack of ability. Or a lack of good role models. Or the child’s refusal to apply himself despite the best efforts of authority figures.

And don’t forget that hope (not the program, but it is related) is part of this. If you don’t think that college is an option financially, you are less likely to strive for academic success.

And I feel like I have to keep reminding people that I don’t think we can completely fix the income-disparity problem in education. But we should at least understand it and stop blaming race and the public schools. And we should do what we can to level the playing field without sacrificing basic American principles such as individualism, freedom, and self-determination. I know a lot of you find it easier to mischaracterize others’ positions and then knock down the straw man, but it’s not helpful.

By tim

August 30, 2005 03:59 PM | Link to this

Jake has a point. I think he would agree that the only way to address this gene pool issue is to get rid of them all, that way we don’t have to deal with the comparisons. Ain’t that right Jake?

By Doug

August 30, 2005 04:02 PM | Link to this

Albert,

Did it ever occur to you that poor parents are too busy putting food on the table to volunteer at the ball games?

My parents each worked 3 jobs. A day job, a night job, and a weekend job. They didn’t have time to wash buses.

It’s a lot easier to do those things when one parent works, when you have your own car, and when you have a flexible work schedule.

By A Concerned Parent

August 30, 2005 04:11 PM | Link to this

I agree with Stephanie02 comments.. Nowadays there’s some teachers who take no prode or initiatives with theire position for our children and directs all of the responsibility towards the parents. I know my responsiblity as a parent for my child but are they aware of their responbility for these children.

If the child is failing then some of the reflection should dwell with these teachers also.

Prioritizing a child to have golf balls instead of writing paper let’s me know just how much support my kids need from me regarding their educational needs…

By Tanishea

August 30, 2005 04:15 PM | Link to this

Ignorance is a virtue, that is learned. Ignorence is also tolerated by the masses. Economics is not the reason for low test scores, society is not the reason for low test scores, race is certainly not the reason for low test score. If you really want to fix the reason for low test scores, ask your children what they think about the test, and the reason for taking the test. Fix it from the inside out, not the outside looking in. The true answers to this calamity of low test scores resides with the children taking the test. I challenge everyone to truly sit down with their children and ask. Stop acting like you know everything, and know the answers to why, because if you all did, the problem would be resolved by now. As stated, everyone is under par in the scores, so don’t make one issue seem so prevalent. Everyone knows that what your child does at home is different than what the do when they leave the home. So start with the children to fin the reasons why the scores are so low.

By Faye

August 30, 2005 04:15 PM | Link to this

The less fortunate are zoned into poorly structured and underfunded schools. Parents are priced out of certain residential neighborhoods. For example, Brookwood High School district lack apartment complexes. Such areas zone to prevent parity in their schools. Less fortunate kids attend nursey, pre-K, and kindergarten as more fortunate kids but the level is education poor. Not to take anything away from the teachers because they do the best they can with what is made available to them. I know a few teachers personally that have to buy supplies for their classroom with their own money. Other school systems such as Cobb can order Apple Laptop computers for their classroom. Where is the justice and balance in supplies throughout the State. The fact is obvious that Gwinnett and Cobb have far more funds made available to their school area than DeKalb and Fulton counties.

By mike

August 30, 2005 04:16 PM | Link to this

Who says all Georgia students on the college prep track have to take the SAT? It is not mandatory in georgia that any student take the test. Obviously if you are going to College you would take it,but it is not forced on anyone. It seems to me that Georgians and southerners, are always looking for an excuse. We seem to always be looking for the easier,softer way. Guess what? There’s not one. You get what you work for. You can complain that the way we are compared with other states is not fair all day if that is what you want to believe. The truth is , we have a lot of people here who don’t really care about education. We also have had Govenors that award money,(HOPE),if you have a “B” average. Well, now we have a bunch of students with “B” averages that cannot score 1000 on the SAT? Teachers are giving students a “B” just to keep them eligible for HOPE whether they earned it or not. It is a distorted , viscious cycle that will be hard to break. Believe me , when a kid gets to College with these phony “B” averages and can’t do the work. It shows up quickly. Ask the University system how many freshman lose the hope after their first semester. That number will open your eyes.

By college mom

August 30, 2005 04:16 PM | Link to this

My son’s college roommate had a 4.0 average and received the hope. He is from a small south georgia town and he is having to take a non credit reading class and is scheduled for all electives this semister. My son missed the hope by one point and is from a large gwinnett high school.He has a full load this semister. HELLO what is wrong with this picture? He is going to school free and can’t read. Maybe the state needs to move their standarized testing to south georgia. I’m sure his SAT was high. ha!

By Elwood

August 30, 2005 04:19 PM | Link to this

There are far too many spelling misteaks in a thread about education — especially from those blaming the public school system and/or our teachers for the problem!

Doug is right, and those who disagree with him keep on missing the point. Turn off Fox News and open your eyes, people!

By FreeWoman

August 30, 2005 04:21 PM | Link to this

And here I thought I lived in the cit too busy to hate.

I took the SAT in 1989. At the time I went to school with people who did the same as me, better, and a little worse. I was able to matriculate through college and graduate summa cum laude. A standardize test should not be the only indicator of a child having the ability to learn and excelling in school. Too much emphasis is put on this test.

I don’t have any kids so I don’t know the answer to the money question. But when I was preparing for the SAT, in NJ they had a class within the school curriculum that was a prep class. It was an elective. In SC, no such class existed. Prep courses cost money. Are free prep classes offered here in GA?

By Albert

August 30, 2005 04:24 PM | Link to this

**Albert,

Did it ever occur to you that poor parents are too busy putting food on the table to volunteer at the ball games?**

I am not buying that excuse. Well to do people are often more busy than us poor folk.

Doug, I understand your point but we all know that the real reason is that a lot, not all, of these poor parents don’t give a rats butt about helping their children. I grew up poor also but my mom and dad were also by my side. Yeah, it took effort. People have to deal with it. I do not know too many poor people who work two and three jobs. If they did they most likely would not be poor. No excuses….if there is a will there is a way. It take effort.

By js

August 30, 2005 04:26 PM | Link to this

I just want to say there are many factors that play a part in a person’s education and their intelligence. I know that being a certain race does not contribute to how smart a person is and everyone else knows this as well. What we all have to realize is that most of what everyone is saying is correct in some sense but why get so upset about it if that is all you are doing. Do what you need to do to make things better. I have noticed the lack of concern or care from students and it is very obvious. I didn’t attend high school here and quite frankly thank God for it everyday. We all have to just realize that there are many factors that account for the issues in education here and elsewhere. Remember: What might be best for some isn’t always best for all.

By BrenR.

August 30, 2005 04:27 PM | Link to this

Elwood,

Do you like mis”steaks” with potatoes or was that a mistake?

By charles

August 30, 2005 04:36 PM | Link to this

Watch my word the teachers will get another raise out of this. They always do…

By chamberpot

August 30, 2005 04:36 PM | Link to this

So, do you fault a system that enables those with higher incomes to a) breed more intelligent children b) afford better schools, and, as a result c) get better test scores? Do you dismantle it to ‘equalize the opportunity’, when decades of our social experimentation show that it just won’t work? That those given those ‘enrichment’ opportunities ( at an increased burden to actual taxpayers) fare no better than without the opportunities should be evidence enough to end the debate. Hard evidence shows that relative income is the most univerally correlated indicator of intelligence. Also, it is well understood (through studies with identical twins raised separately )that genetics plays an exponentially greater role in IQ than environment. Hate to state the obvious, but it all starts with innate capacity. Despite what some would have us believe, intellect is not equally distributed. We don’t like to see huge differences in these test scores clearly divided along race lines. It offends our post-modern sensibilities. We do everything to assume responsibility, to somehow indict ‘culture’ and ‘lack of enrichment’ as explanations, and if those fail, to play the racism card. However, even after decades of strident adherence to the pseudo-egalitarian white shame party line, the intellectual divide still exists. When do we stop apologizing for the inequities of the past, of ‘the system’, and allow people to fill the roles in life that their innate intelligence will have them play? The money is being spent. Good schools are almost everywhere, even in Georgia! The reality is, stupid people usually produce stupid offspring, and stupid people breed more than smart people (relatively higher income /high IQ parents have far fewer offspring than their counterparts). Aside from some really insidious eugenics-inspired breeding control to modify our state’s demographics, it is doubtful that our present SAT rankings in Georgia will change for the foreseeable future.

By Petersonhere

August 30, 2005 04:37 PM | Link to this

While we are at it people….irregardless is not a word…..the word is irrespective. Deal with it.

By Bill Hendrix

August 30, 2005 04:43 PM | Link to this

The SAT/ACT should only be required for those who plan to attend college. However, it is apparent that the State of Georgia is failing miserably in providing quality education to students. The parents/students must also accept responsibility, for the states inept performance.Vocational training should be mandatory for those who have no interest in a college education, as there is a significant shortage of tradesman throughout the country.

By Doug

August 30, 2005 04:48 PM | Link to this

Albert,

I’m not saying that income disparity is the sole reason for underperforming low-income students. I just have about four main points:

1: income disparity is a stronger predictor of academic performance than race (whatever the reasons or solutions, we must understand this connection)

2: there are factors that affect both family income and academic achievement of children in the family (for example, parents who aren’t well educated may be less likely to pass a commitment to education along to their children)

3: financial resources alone CAN give a student an advantage or disadvantage when it comes to academic success

4: deficiencies in public schools are not the main reason for lower test performance among lower income students

By TC

August 30, 2005 04:50 PM | Link to this

I agree with Bill Hendrix. Our state is failing and contiunes each year. Our state reps for education are all untouchable but yet we all elect them into office. We need to go back to basics and teach our kids and the teachers should teach with their hearts not just a pay check or 3+ months off every year.

By Ray

August 30, 2005 04:55 PM | Link to this

How is teaching Ebonics and Afro-centric studies preparing Black kids in the real world?

By cp

August 30, 2005 04:59 PM | Link to this

I’m hearing two things that bother me: 1) Ga’s SAT scores don’t matter because you can’t compare states this way because — it’s not fair.

Well it does matter. We are being judged by these scores. It’s costing the state jobs — good paying jobs that YOU could apply for. It may not be fair, but it is a fact.

2) Ga is doomed to always be last because of our demographics or whatever…

So the reputation we have nationwide is right?? We are just dumber down here?? I don’t thinks so.

I think we get what we accept. Where is the outrage?

By Shabazz

August 30, 2005 05:03 PM | Link to this

The problem is cultural and generational. Poor whites and blacks place little emphasis on reading, writing and arithmetic. At home they they might be lucky enough to have one parent, let alone two under one roof. MTV, BET and internet chatrooms are the sources for after school activities. I doubt if a library card could be found in the typical household.Don’t blame Bush or the governor. EVERYTHING starts at home. Throwing more tax dollars into the educational system is not going to halt cultural and generational stupidity.

By Wade

August 30, 2005 05:04 PM | Link to this

WOW! AMAZING! Why do the citizens of Georgia continue to grasp on to the fact that we are improving, when it appears we are last every year? I believe our state is beginning to “get comfortable” with the idea of being last and that is scary!

By Jake

August 30, 2005 05:10 PM | Link to this

Good point Tim! Why does the SAT even include racial information? After all, it doesn’t impact the scores. Haven’t you read enough of Doug’s posts to know that it’s the lower per capita income in Georgia that casues those lower SAT scores? Of course he’s done quite well coming from 3 job a day sharecroppers to hear him tell it.
And by the way the 2004 per capita income in Georgia was just about the same as Iowa’s, but the SAT scores weren’t. I’m saying; 1)you can’t take a kid with an 85 IQ, move him to Dunwoody (if he doesn’t already live there) and help him get 1500 on the old style SAT, and 2)if the innate IQ’s are equal it’s parental involvement, not income, that’s most important. As Doug correctly points out, less income in general equates to less parental involvement, although again it didn’t seem to hold him back. Similarly, minorities have lower incomes on average. Doug also seems to suggest Iowa did better with the same per capita income because they devoted more of that income to providing quality education for all their students. Ever been to Iowa? I have. I’m suggesting the difference isn’t the quality of educqation in those rural schools, it’s the cultural values of the Iowans, primarily white working class or farmers. So they outperform the Georgians with much higher minority populations, which don’t put as much cultural value on academic success. It’s not racism, it’s racially related culture. Not that they are of different races, or that they have lower incomes (on average they don’t), it’s the cultural values transmitted, or not, through parental involvement. You want a correlation? Try looking at CRCT and SAT scores for one parent families, that just happen to be more prevalent among poor minorities. Doug, how can you socially engineer things so baby momma won’t keep creating multi-child, one parent families by accomodating every guy that comes by with a couple of rocks of crack? How will our tax dollars create the same emphasis on academic achievement in the Latino household that there is in the Asian home (seen their math scores?)? Please tell me how you will level out their SAT scores.

By Josef

August 30, 2005 05:18 PM | Link to this

You can’t blame the politicians- Republican or Democrat, for what goes on at home! I’m tired of piping more and more money down a rat hole for public education. More money for the teachers. Lap top computers for the students. Dumbing down the curriculum to make everybody look equally bad in the long run. Parents need other options and alternatives for their children. Vouchers for private schools should be one of them. I attended both public & private schools. Believe me, there was a noticeable difference!

By TommyWommie

August 30, 2005 05:18 PM | Link to this

Gosh, could we see the scores of the blacks with FATHERS compared with the scores of blacks WITHOUT fathers?

By Angela Smith

August 30, 2005 05:20 PM | Link to this

The problem in a nutshell is this: In Georgia, just about everyone is encouraged to take the SAT. In other states, only their best and brightest college-bound kids are encouraged to take the test. Thus, the discrepancy exist. You can’t compare apples to oranges.

By JRB

August 30, 2005 05:30 PM | Link to this

Why is it that out of all these blogs no one seems to be putting forth any solutions? We have the teachers complaining that a lack of school resources and technology limit their ability to teach. I laugh when I hear a teacher complain that they are not provided with the necessary tools to teach. We somehow educated an entire generation without the aid of computers and other advanced technology. Now it seems that some teachers want us to believe that unless every student in class has a computer we are crazy to believe the youth of today can be educated. We have parents blaming inadequate teachers. While every industry has bad employees we have the best overall teaching force in the world. Then we have others who blame it on race or income. Some of the richest people this country has ever had, both black and white, came from dire conditions that would make today’s welfare recipients look like royalty. The problem that we face today is not caused by an inadequate or under funded school system. The problem is we are still holding on to an outdated teaching approach. The idea that one size fits all has caused us to attempt to educated millions of children from thousands of backgrounds as if they are one homogeneous group. The marketing departments of major companies have known for years you need different ad campaigns for different demographics. Why are we still convinced that school and education are any different? In our attempt to be politically correct and convince everyone that we are the same we have lost sight of the fact that we are all different. We all learn in different ways and we are good at different things. By trying to create a single “well-rounded� individual we are losing the very thing that made this country great. We are a heterogeneous group of individuals all operating in our own area of interest and expertise. If you have a student that is great in math but is sub-par or uninterested in other subjects why do you force him into sitting through classes he doesn’t want to be in? Wouldn’t that student be much better served by taking a minimal amount of English classes (enough to make sure he can read and write) and a majority of classes in mathematics and science? Now, instead of having a student who most likely would have dropped out because he was failing the majority of his classes you have a student who loves coming to school because he is interested in what he is learning. Instead of getting constant reinforcement that he is not good at most things he is getting constant reinforcement that he is great at what he does. The other problem we currently have with our education system is the fact that we make no attempt to educated students on how to deal with the real world. I attended one of the top local private schools and a top tier university. When I got out I had no idea how to get a home loan, how much insurance I needed, or a thousand other things that people have to deal with on a regular basis. Fortunately, I had my parents to guide me through these adventures but for many students fresh out of school, both college and high school, they have to figure this stuff out on their own. Why is it that educators are concerned that little Billy understands advanced algebra but don’t bother to teach him how to balance a checkbook or make and maintain a budget? To reference an earlier blog it is true the world needs ditch-diggers but if they can’t take care of themselves and their family’s we have failed even them as far as education goes.

By SWC

August 30, 2005 05:37 PM | Link to this

DOUG - What are your solutions other than social engineering and spending more and sending everyone to college? What’s the point of a degree if it doesn’t mean anything? People start off poor and go on to get an education and move up the ladder every day in this country. The culture that you are raised in counts for much more than money. You may have been poor, but seemed to have had something called the “work ethic”, not the “sit around and watch soap operas and smoke crack ethic”. JANE KITSON - Yes, there is a group trying to save summer vacation. Its called, Georgians Need Summers. When I tell people (whose kids go to those succesful school districts where August is a vacation month) that school starts August 1st they are shocked! You’re right - starting school early or being in school all year round does not do anything to improve standardized test scores. Some of these kids could go to school forever and it wouldn’t make any difference. The SAT shows “Scholastic aptitude”. If you’re flunking out you ain’t got it so its better to try something else other than pursue a liberal arts education.

By coolfred

August 30, 2005 05:40 PM | Link to this

States with SEC football teams and their large fan bases reported the worst SAT scores. Go GA Dawgs & Gamecocks, Roll Tide, War Eagles & Ole Miss.

Any UNC, State or Duke fan reading this? Congrats to the Research Triangle area’s high schools for its above-nat’l average SAT performances.

By Joe

August 30, 2005 05:40 PM | Link to this

I scored a mediocre 1100 on the SAT my junior year in high school. I recently graduated college on the six year program, so by no means could I consider myself to be a smart student. Heck, I was in the bottom half of my class in both high school and in college. So if I think 1100 isn’t all that great, we have a serious problem. We need to stop making excuses and perform! After skimming through several of the reader’s comments; it dawned on me that there could possibly be another reason capable of explaining Georgia’s embarrassing SAT scores. We can sit here all day and make up excuses for our national ranking. We can talk about scores being skewed by all of these unfair disadvantages that Georgia’s students face…the number of students taking the test, other states in favor of the ACT, our demographics, etc., etc. Give me a break. Most of us don’t even no the beginning of how statistics work anyways. We sound like a bunch of 10 year olds making up excuses for dropping an easy fly ball to end the game. The sun was in my face! I stepped in a hole! With that sarcastic moment behind us, I urge you to simply take a quick look out how pathetic our citizen adults are at grammar. Most of the comments in this section are littered with mistakes. My comment probably has several mistakes in it too. How can we possibly expect are children to score well on the SAT when parents are online putting together excuses that aren’t even close to being properly written? By the way, is it necessary for me to point out the fact that half of the SAT is based on your child’s English curriculum? You as a parent act as your child’s number one educator. It would be helpful if our adult population had just a smidgen of intellect to pass down their genetic pool. We need to put ourselves in check before making excuses for our children’s national SAT rank. Myself included.

By Max

August 30, 2005 05:47 PM | Link to this

Just another blackeye for Georgia, we are allway’s being told educations systems in the South are inferior and this data proves them right, I agree with earlier comments it might be a cultural thing with African American, we are not stressing (at an early age) the vitalness off it, our kids seems to have more of appreciation of rap videos.

By Max

August 30, 2005 05:50 PM | Link to this

Just another blackeye for Georgia, we are allway’s being told educations systems in the South are inferior and this data proves them right, I agree with earlier comments it might be a cultural thing with African American, we are not stressing (at an early age) the vitalness off it, our kids seems to have more of appreciation of rap videos. We have to ask ourselves, why do Asian American (1st and 2nd generation))seem to excel in Academia. My sister-in law is teacher in the Bay Area (California) where some elementary schools are 60-70 percent Asian, and having over 90% percent graduation rates, and SAT scores that will Make Georgia HS students seem elementary.

By Veritras

August 30, 2005 05:58 PM | Link to this

Over the years you’ve removed God from the classroom. Because of links with the once-legal and accepted custom of slavery,schools once named for Washington & Jefferson have been renamed for individuals of little known or questionable merit. Today’s student thinks the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor, and has no idea what Thomas Edison invented. But they damn well know who Sacajawea was and can probably tell you who invented peanut butter! Political correctness, multi-culturalism and the calculator have created a generation of mindless zombies, unable to cope with the harshness and competitive nature of the real world, one day a tremendous harvest of voters for the Democratic Party. Nobody is accountable for their own actions; its always someone elses fault. Usual culprits are President Bush, racism, the evil Republicans, slavery, global warming and a host of other excuses. Throwing more money down the rat hole of public education has not solved one problem !

By david

August 30, 2005 06:00 PM | Link to this

I’ve gone to the web site of the College Board and they clearly write that it is NOT appropriate to compare states. The obvious question is then why do they release figures comparing states? Hello!!! The College Board is a BUSINESS!!! I conclude that releasing these scores is a business decision that only reflects poorly on the College Board. Shame on them, and I hope they continue to reap the decline in their influence that they so richly deserve.

By Jake

August 30, 2005 06:06 PM | Link to this

Chamberpot - You truly understand.
Elwood - This is a blog to exchange ideas and opinions, spelling and grammar aren’t really that important here. Doug - I agree with income as a predictor, but not as the cause. I came from a very poor working class family. The inner city school environment and lack of motivation from my parents may have been a factor in my 560 verbal score, but my 144 IQ was certainly a factor in my 760 math score.
Everyone - Racism is having and/or expressing a belief that one race is inherently superior, i.e., blacks are smarter than Latinos (although Latinos are not a race per se, they are an ethnic group and can be of any race) or Asians are smarter than whites. There isn’t any evidence for those beliefs. However, Asians do score better than Whites, who score better than Blacks who score better than Latinos. That’s not racism, those are facts.

By Ellen

August 30, 2005 06:12 PM | Link to this

High school students might take more responsibility if they had more accountability. Haven’t earned a reasonable number of high school credits? No, parking priviledges. Grade-point average in the toilet? No free practice SAT. School doesn’t make Adequate Yearly Progress?? How about automatic uniforms? School policies can’t undo the damage of inadequate parenting, but we don’t have to reinforce it. Students need to earn their rights.

By lisa

August 30, 2005 06:17 PM | Link to this

Ok, so who is first???

By Duke

August 30, 2005 06:41 PM | Link to this

Bill Cosby says that Black parents will spend $200 to buy their kids a pair of fancy sneakers, but they will not buy “Hooked on “Phonics” so he can learn to read. He says Black families are not living up to their part of the bargain, which is true. But if the school system was doing its job, all kids would learn to read in school. Someone has privately published a program on phonics, because it is not being taught in school, as it used to be taught routinely. Our school system is elitist. Kids from educated homes will learn to read anyway; but with our modern, progressive education, any kid who does not get what he needs at home is out of luck; he certainly will not get it at school. I don’t put much stock in relative comparisons among school systems. When compared against the absolute standards of the 1950’s, all our school systems are two to four years behind grade level.

By Gerald

August 30, 2005 06:57 PM | Link to this

THERE ARE MORE STUDENTS ALLOWED TO TAKE THE SAT IN GEORGIA THAN ANY OTHER STATE..EVERY SENIOR IS ALLOWED TO TAKE THE SAT IN GEORGIA..WITCH MAKES THE OVERALL AVERAGE GO DOWN!!SOME STATES STUDENTS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO TAKE THE SAT UNLESS THEY HAVE A CERTAIN GRADE POINT AVERAGE..

By JW

August 30, 2005 06:58 PM | Link to this

The problem is and always will be priorities - and this includes everyone involved in education. Too often, administrators get so caught up in the “latest” craze in education that they dump everything else to join the bandwagon. Then, the next year it is on to another “new” technique that is rammed down teachers’ throats, while promising parents, teachers and students that this is THE SOLUTION!

Politicians try to reform schools like they are little businesses. When are they going to realize that schools are not businesses who can get rid of non-productive employees? Schools deal with all who show up - regardless of background, ability level, prior preparedness, etc. And we should expect nothing less of our schools. But, then don’t blame them for becoming defensive when folks start comparing schools using standardized test data.

Until learning becomes the number one priority - over bandwagon strategies & techniques lapped up by school officials, over sports activies and other extracurricular events, over social activities - expect no changes.

Finally, I think many people could learn a lot from the following - “If you’re sure you know the solution, you are part of the problem.”

By Dave

August 30, 2005 07:06 PM | Link to this

Why do I feel like I am not being told the entire story by the AJC? Perhaps because they do this time and time again in order to make a story look how they want it to look.

This is terrible news, and I have a real hard time buying that the Governor and Kathy Cox are really satisfied with the results. Does anyone have an actual transcript of this conversation the AJC is quoting?

By Lee

August 30, 2005 07:22 PM | Link to this

Maybe there’s a difference in the SAT scores for blacks and whites because…

There’s a difference in the races??

Maybe Ga does so poorly on the SAT is because…

We don’t try to push the above average students anymore. The schools know that the above average student will give them the CRCT scores they need. Instead, the schools gear all their teaching to the bottom quartile in the vain hope that they can get them to pass a basic skills test.

Maybe what the schools need to do is to group students by abliity and teach to their level. But no, if it turned out that all the white students were in the above average class and blacks were in the lower classes, why, it just wouldn’t be politically correct. Lord knows we can’t have that.

However, it was hilarious reading Purdue and Cox’s spin job on the scores.

By ColdHardTruth

August 30, 2005 08:26 PM | Link to this

Doug,

Regarding your points:

1: “income disparity is a stronger predictor of academic performance than race”.

OK professor, thanks for the research. Other than making sure every single kid in the state has the same background and household income, it will continue to be that way. There are about a thousand other “predictors” of academic performance. Taking all of them out of consideration, especially those that are also correlated to low incomes, and simply looking at income alone obscures the true problem.

2: “there are factors that affect both family income and academic achievement of children in the family (for example, parents who aren’t well educated may be less likely to pass a commitment to education along to their children)”

Absolutely. The positive and negative influences on children varies on an individual basis and is rarely the same in any two cases.

3: “financial resources alone CAN give a student an advantage or disadvantage when it comes to academic success”

Sure. Financial resources can provide a child advantages. However, no amount of money (or lack of it) will determine one’s academic success or failure. At some point in time all people will have to take responsibility for their own success. Given that everyone is not starting from the same position in life (and hopefully never will as long as Marx doesn’t make a comeback), wouldn’t it be easier to try and help everyone understand that from the beginning, that in this society anything is possible?

4: deficiencies in public schools are not the main reason for lower test performance among lower income students

True. It is not necessarily a deficiency in public schools. However, there are cultural deficiencies that are causing the problems, no one has the courage to have an honest dialogue about it, and everyone simply expects our public school teachers to not only educate all of these little terrors, but to teach them decision making skills, police them when necessary, make sure they make it to college, and teach them how to have sex. To claim that “income” is the problem or even a big part of it is simply not true. Either is your implication that I do not want to help the “less fortunate”. Youth culture, both black and white has become one of promiscuity, thuggery, and anti-achievement. You know a sure fire way to limit your child’s success? Name her Laquanda Shaneka or put him in a deer stand early each morning but not in an SAT prep course. Bottom line is that libraries are free, hooked on phonics is cheaper than a pair of Jordans and the latest 50 Cent CD about pimpn’ hos.

By Patrick

August 31, 2005 08:24 AM | Link to this

According to Patti Ghezzi, black students in Georgia scored on par with the national average for all black kids. So they aren’t to blame for our last place SAT scores. And Georgia isn’t the only state with poor families and unmotivated students. Before we can improve our state’s position, we must first own our place at the bottom of the SAT rankings. WE are doing a poor OVERALL job of educating Georgia’s kids! Stop trying to make black kids the scapegoat for OUR underachievement.

By Roger

August 31, 2005 08:42 AM | Link to this

Quite simply, shame on you AJC! As usual we don’t get the WHOLE story. Georgia has a low average because they have one of the highest paticipation of people that take the test. Most states that have the higher averages, far, far less take the test. Research it AJC and you other naysayers, it really is simple math. Btw my 6th grade child is the one who figured this out.

By Renee

August 31, 2005 08:55 AM | Link to this

How well a student does or does not perform on the extremely biased testing of the SAT does not directly correlate to how well they will do in college. Secondly, let’s be honest - America is still segregated and most of the government’s money goes to schools that are majority white. We are not ‘legally’ segregated in that the government does not tell blacks they can’t go to whichever school, but we ARE segregated in that most of our neighborhoods (which determine where the district lines will be drawn and which neighborhoods go to which school) are not ethnically diverse (just because you have one or two black neighbors does not mean the neighborhood/district is ethnically diverse). The neighborhood on one side of the line goes to school A and the neighborhood on the other goes to school B. School A, mostly white, gets better and more up to date books; school B doesn’t have enough teachers or desks for all the students. And if you’re going to make this a blog about education, you might want to correct your grammar before you post.

By Lea

August 31, 2005 08:55 AM | Link to this

Have any of you ever read the textbook stories our children are forced to read in school? My daughter is a very slow reader, so I’ve read 90% of what she’s had to plow through. BORING!!! If we want to interest our children in reading, we need to provide them with interesting stories they can relate to so they will want to read. As for the SAT scores, can’t the state go through the records and produce the average for those college freshmen who took the SAT?

By Hugo

August 31, 2005 08:58 AM | Link to this

It’s amazing to me how self-righteous many of you are when it comes to the SAT. I am an African-American from a middle class household. I have a daughter who will take the SAT next year and she will do quite well because I will do all I can to make sure she does. I will purchase the materials or hire a tutor, anything I can to make sure she does well. Many of the materials cost hundreds of dollars along with a tutor.How many of the white students had the same help or took the SAT more than once. Many people do not have the resources to spend that type of money. To say poverty has nothing to do with it is non-sense. It makes us feel good about ourselves if we believe we have succeeded without an advantage or help but it is a crock. There is a reason why SOME African American students don’t do well while others do fine and it’s not about rap music or videos.

By t

August 31, 2005 09:07 AM | Link to this

I am a teacher in a middle class school, and I can safely say if the values of learning are not taught at home then students will not succeed. I am also African American and I will also say that it’s not that the education system is failing african american students its that some of there parents are failing them. If a child is in turmoil at home then it will be very difficult to come to school and do there best. One problem that the school system have is they are so busy trying to be politically correct and please parents that in the process the forget to educate children, discipline children and form positive communication with parents. Parents need to take a more proactive role in getting there children where they need to be academically, especially since we know that 90% of a child education comes from the home.

Everybody is always screaming the teachers, administrators, school systems need to change. You can’t possibly imagine how much schooling, training, and testing that we have to go through. Maybe if we made parents step up to the plate and aid us in teaching there children we would all be successful.

I spend more time discipling then I do teaching and that should not be the case.

By Veritas

August 31, 2005 09:13 AM | Link to this

All Georgia students should be forced to take an Afro-Centric curriculum, from grades 1-12. This way, all will be on the same level playing field, and equally unprepared for a life in a country founded in western Europeon laws, traditions and principles.

Instead of Shakespeare, Poe, Faulkner, and Twain, Tupac, Puff Daddy and Sistah Souljah will be he literary icons.

By t

August 31, 2005 09:17 AM | Link to this

It is about rap music and videos. If they spent as much time learning math as they did hip hop they could do better. I am an African American teacher and I see first hand how many of our students come to class goofing off, no discipline, no care. Maybe if you took a stand to face the problem then there wouldn’t be a problem. Lower income families may not have the means to get the tutoring and the test prep but that doesn’t stop them from getting a math book and trying to become proficient. Stop making excuses I came from a very low income family and I still managed to study. Its about priorities not poverty. Poverty is a condition that can be eliminated with education. Poverty is not permanent. I think we all agree that those who are wealthier prioritize differently, mainly with education.

By Brennan Price

August 31, 2005 09:17 AM | Link to this

The annual hype over Georgia’s SAT ranking is routinely overblown. An SAT score measures no more than how one performs on the SAT, which in the long run is terribly unimportant. Show me someone who proudly touts his SAT score after being admitted to college, and I’ll show you a loser.

Georgia is further hindered by the fact that its colleges and universities, from most selective to least selective, universally require the SAT from any student who applies. Many similar states allow an ACT option at their state schools, and only the students who are aiming for the Ivies or similar colleges take the SAT. Mississippi is one such state, and a few years ago, it finished first among the states in average SAT scores. I’m not buying that Mississippi tops the education scales in any relevant indicator.

By Plato

August 31, 2005 09:20 AM | Link to this

Until 2003, the Democrats had dictatorial rule and control over Georgia and the public educational system.

How can Governor Perdue be blamed for what is a cultural and generational problem, created over several decades?

Where did Georgia rank in overall education under Miller, Barnes, et all?

By James

August 31, 2005 09:25 AM | Link to this

So Georgia is back to the bottom on SAT scores yet again. I suppose they figured in the scores for South DeKalb High School this time.

By Anne-Marie

August 31, 2005 09:28 AM | Link to this

What do you expect when the schools just push the students through? I know a student who should have really been held back last year but wasn’t.

By Lynn

August 31, 2005 09:33 AM | Link to this

I am a life-long “Yankee” who moved to GA almost 2 yrs ago. I freely admit to being prejudiced about the public school systems here. However, I was very suprised to see that the Carroll County schools were much more involved in my child’s education than the New Hampshire schools had ever been. The teachers are better, the programs are better. My 9 yr old son has ADHD (no, I don’t medicate him because he is “annoying”, he was thoroughly diagnosed by a neuropsychologist and a team of pediatricians)and the Student Support Team at the school has been enormously helpful. I used to have a fantastic career in wireless, now I am a stay-at-home mom simply because my son needs the extra support to maintain his honor roll average. We scrape for necessities, have trouble making bills occassionally, and can’t afford a $99 Hooked on Phonics CD. But I read to my children every day. I sing ABC’s with my 3 yr old in the car as we do errands. My son completes homework before being allowed to play or watch TV. Privileges are taken away if his behavior report from school is not positive. Disparities between black and white scores come down to parental responsibility. Yes, families with higher incomes can afford tutors, and private schools. But even that does not guarantee higher SAT scores. We cannot expect teachers, barely making enough to raise their own families, to take complete responsibility for educating our children. If you want your child to succeed, you must assume as much control as possible. Be involved. Be educated about the system. Guide your children towards becoming responsible, respectful, productive human beings.

By Karen Armsby

August 31, 2005 09:37 AM | Link to this

The fact that students who fall below the 70% peformance level in schools are even taking the SAT is a joke. Their low scores are dragging down otherwise excellent scores across the state and badly skewing the statistics.

If Georgia is SOOOOOOO bad at educating its kids, and our SAT scores are SOOOOO low, then how do we reconcile those facts with the highly respectable rankings of Georgia colleges in the US News and World Report College Guide? A recent article in the paper quoting the report showed Emory with a national rank overall of 20 for public and private universities, Georgia Tech 37th overall, and 9th among public universities, and UGA 58th overall and 37th among public universities. And this is just the big schools, there are plenty more highly ranked small public and private colleges. These rankings are very competitive with the rest of the US colleges and univeristies. And UGA and GT are populated largely by Georgia high school graduates, although I am not sure about the percentage of Georgia students at Emory.

It appears to me that education in Georgia is just fine, in fact excellent. Any student who studies hard and wants to achieve can expect to go to college either in Georgia or another state, and do well. IMHO our Georgia colleges are the best barometer of the quality of the academic products of our school systems.

Forget all of the income disparity talk, underserved, and racial bias etc. nonsense. RF had it right, the poor, no matter what color, do not care to learn. The School systems haven’t failed; it’s the pitiful parents with low expectations and their highly critical blaming attitudes that are producing nonperforming students who have failed to participate in the school system.

Finally, I think that ‘No Child Left Behind’ should be qualified to say No Well Behaved, Hard Working Child Left Behind. The schools need to value the students who want to be in school and work hard, and the best way is to kick out the disruptive, chronically absent, and nonperforming slackers who are a burden and a disgrace and who drag down any performance statisitcs.

By Claude

August 31, 2005 09:39 AM | Link to this

Some schools do not require the SAT, in GEORGIA everyone takes it no matter if there is a desire to go to college or not. The schools in the top 10 do not require the sat. You can NOT compare apples to oranges other than fruits! INstead of bad mouthing a school folks go and volunteer some time and see for yourselves what is going with a particular school. ASK questions, go to board meetings, I think you will see that there are so many guidelines and restrictions that schools have their backs against the wall. Georgia schools are not bad, they are not the best but certainly not the worst. SAT scores unfortunately reflect good and bad, but that does not make it true or right.

By jeff

August 31, 2005 09:41 AM | Link to this

Black Scores?…White Scores…? Its funny how such a distinction is made. Last time I checked here at my job, there wasnt a “Black team” or a “white team”. White workers arent evaluated separately from the black ones, right?!

I suppose its a logistical thing. The urban culture is spilling over into mainstream. The white kids and black kids all dress the same, act the same, like the same music and have the same viewpoints.

Efforts to reach these kids and improve education levels should be approached from a broader cross cultural approach than just a narrow focus on racial performance. Not to mention reaching out to all these genx parents who are failing to help their children reach out for a better quality of learning and a better life.

Long live the “Me-first” attitude of 60’s and 70’s, unfortunately.

By David

August 31, 2005 09:43 AM | Link to this

Does anyone take into consideration the fact that more students are taking the SAT now that Georgia is and has been, paying for a large portion of the college expense with the lottery money? Years ago, before the lottery, students who couldn’t afford college were not even taking the SAT because it was a waste of their time and money when they had no reason to believe that they would ever be able to afford to go on to higher eductation. With lottery funds being available, more kids are going to college and therefore, more are taking the SAT. I would venture a guess that if all 50 states were paying for higher education, more students in those states would be taking the SATs and the overall national scores would drop accordingly.

By AVoiceNYoHead

August 31, 2005 09:46 AM | Link to this

Lets talk about why people are so obssessed with race that they can’t even discuss the issue at hand. The reason for Gerogia’s low SAT scores!

FYI an average SAT score is still and average. Example: An average SAT of 1044 does not mean everybody scored 1044. There are some 200’s, 300’s, 1200’s. There is a very wide distribution of scores. Needless to say you have black and white students with real good scroes and very bad scores. A note to the racists: Considering that whites ARE the majority in the state of Georgia, a large volume of the low scores can be attributed to white students. No one has broached this topic in all their worldly wisdom. So what does that tell us. It can be interpreted that most white people are dumb…no. Intelligence is not genetic because we all are inherently from the same gene pool. Lets not put evolution into this please, I live in Cobb County.

Lets find solution to the problems instead of exacerbating the problem even further by clouding it in issues of race.

By Adrew

August 31, 2005 10:00 AM | Link to this

Don’t yall worry about this mess. “Public Schools” is just another way for “BIG Government” to impose it’s will on our lives. Life is the test that tells you when your smart. Not some S.A.T.!

By RF

August 31, 2005 10:03 AM | Link to this

Go Karen!! I was wondering where you were! The issue isn’t as much race as it is popular culture and an attitude towards education the originates in poverty. This and other attitudes have been popularized in all areas. We do indeed have kids all over pretending to be lazy and dumb and thinking it’s the “cool” way to be. Teh biggest challenge in Georgia classrooms is fighting the negative, “I don’t need this” attitude that exists in all cultural groups, but most pervasively among the poor. Karen you should come on down to Jackson, GA—there a few sensible folks down here in the country!

By Patrick

August 31, 2005 10:05 AM | Link to this

Georgian’s have effectively segregated their schools and now it sounds like they’d like to separate white SAT scores from black. Forget about blaming black kids for the state’s last place SAT average. African-American only make up 13% of the population. What about looking toward the other 87% of the student body for improvement on the SAT?

By JJ

August 31, 2005 10:06 AM | Link to this

My finger of blame points toward the test. The SAT is no more than a ball of BS produced by Princeton nerds. SAT results are not an honest portrayal of Georgia students’ overall aptitude and interest in learning, but ONLY an indication that our students test poorly. The SAT is but one (faulty) determinant of if a student can thrive in college, and Georgia also bought into that nonsense when the governor suggested that the SAT become a factor in issuing HOPE grant monies to otherwise capable students. Leave it to Sonny to let a damn test trump student achievement.

By old teacher

August 31, 2005 10:06 AM | Link to this

When you have parents taking kids out of remediation classes because it might ‘hurt their feeling’ to be in a class with lower achieving students, expect lower SAT scores.

By James

August 31, 2005 10:07 AM | Link to this

I agree the gap in scores is somewhat predicated on the socio-economics of a child, but also culture plays a huge role. I grew up in poverty in Alabama, eight kids in government housing. I saw what not getting an education meant, it meant a job in the steel mills or worse. So many black kids today see many of their community leaders/elected officals continually perpetuate an atmosphere of “the government owes me”. Assistance by your government is not something you should come to expect. Rising above your surroundings will most certainly be a more bankable option than relying on some sort of aid. Do not expect the taxes of hard working people to pay for your fare through life. Do not expect the government to be your meal ticket. Learn and know as much about your elected officals as you know about which name P Diddy is using this week. Conquer and take command of your life; don’t sit back waiting for a hand out or a quota or a court order to catapult you into higher socio-economic status.

By Todd

August 31, 2005 10:11 AM | Link to this

Well said Jeff!… Its not a Racial Issue.. its our society’s apathetic culture on education.

Other groups from poor countries come over to the U.S. and use education to arm themselves for the future.

I know many third-worlders who have come here and become successful business people. Doctors..Lawyers…Hotel Owners….Restaurant chain owners.

By jennifer

August 31, 2005 10:16 AM | Link to this

A lot of the issue doesn’t have to do with black parents not taking the time to read to their children etc. It has to do with the fact poorer children and schools do not have the same resources available to them that upper crust schools have. When you have everything available to you of course it’s easier.

But, overall, Georgia’s low SAT scores have to do with the fact that good ol’ GA is just plain backwards. There doesn’t seem to be any progression anymore in the school systems. Not since Barnes anyway.

By Brown Person

August 31, 2005 10:21 AM | Link to this

In Georgia, the PSAT is given to all 10th grade students free of charge. If we care that much about SAT scores, let’s weed out the students who perform poorly on the PSAT so that they won’t HURT our SAT scores.

By RF

August 31, 2005 10:24 AM | Link to this

Karen!! I was wondering where you were! Very well said by several here that it isn’t about race as much as it is about pop culture and the the lacadaisical attitude we have as a nation. Education isn’t a priority anymore in many groups. This view stems from poverty, attitudes from which have been popularized and adopted by many from all cultures. It’s “cool” to be lazy and have the attitude of “I don’t need this”. What we are fighting in the schools most of all is this attitude and the fact that many parents support it.
Karen, come on down to Jackson, GA—there are a few sensible folks down here in the country!

By teacher

August 31, 2005 10:25 AM | Link to this

It in interesting that income seems to be a factor in SAT scores across all races except one: Asians. Asian students, no matter what their socio-economic status, consistenly peform all other races on the SAT (source: NPR).

By teacher

August 31, 2005 10:27 AM | Link to this

It is interesting that income seems to be a factor in SAT scores across all races except one: Asians. Asian students, no matter what their socio-economic status, consistenly outperform all other races on the SAT (source: NPR).

By Ynot

August 31, 2005 10:27 AM | Link to this

Many kudos to Grady High School for being in top echelon of SAT scores. The combined SAT score of 1100 is only beat by a select few high schools in affluent suburbs. For years the “intown” public schools, particularly Grady were shunned by the urban elite inhabiting their cozy and quaint bungalows. They would (and continue to) send their priceless progeny to expensive private schools. I hope this message will be clarion call to extol the value of a public education.

By Claude

August 31, 2005 10:29 AM | Link to this

people get over yourselves, color has nothing to do with this, It does not matter if the Education Blog is about retirement of teachers, somehow somone will cry foul based on color, OWN your little problem that has you so upset and deal with it and get over it. OH MY WORD, now all of the babies that think this about color is gonna come after ol’ CLAUDE. DEVERYONE A FAVOR, Pay attention to the blog. IT IS NOT HOW HAS WHITEY CHEATED THE BLACK PEOPLE AGAIN. IT IS ABOUT THE S.A.T., KNUCKLEHEADS.

By Karen Armsby

August 31, 2005 10:32 AM | Link to this

RF, Thanks! I was at work yesterday when Patti put this topic up, and I don’t blog at work. And thanks for the invitation to Jackson. I think there are many sensible folks and good educators all over Georgia, but darn those statistics get in the way and create havoc in these discussions.

I need to qualify some of my comments posted above; being poor itself doesn’t mean that parents don’t care for their kids and can’t provide good role models so that their kids can succeed. But parents who did not try in school, who dropped out, who have no motivation to go back to school so they can lift themselves out of their poverty, are the ones whose children are most at risk. I was not addressing poor parents with good attitudes who encourage their kids to study hard and succeed. Good parenting doesn’t require any money, just love and attention and firm guidance.

By Clint

August 31, 2005 10:38 AM | Link to this

Jennifer,

You don’t know the first thing about what you are talking about.

Do you know the City of Atlanta school system has one of the highest per capital student expenditures in the state? And it also has some of the lowest student achievement in the state?

Educational achievement is a function of many things, including resources. But when the other parts of the equation are absent (e.g. parental involvement, student motivation) then resources are useless.

Your “good ol boy” comment shows you are a probably a transplanted Democrat whose political views are much more important than the reality about education in Georiga.

By Hugo

August 31, 2005 10:41 AM | Link to this

To teacher, income plays a role. The poverty figures were released yesterday and guess which group had the highest median income even outpacing whites. Asians

By RF

August 31, 2005 10:48 AM | Link to this

Not to stray too far from the topic, but since SAT scores relate to average education level in the home, I think this applies. We as a nation have created an abyss of poverty, subsidized by governent aid, which keeps people at a survival level that their lack of skills and education can’t get them beyond. They become dependent on government assistance and eventually adopt the attitude that they deserve it. This is relative to poverty and not race. Some do in fact try to break this cycle and create a better life, but it is hard. For the kids, it becomes a life lived by example. Why get an education and strive for more when you can get by and do very little? Many kids worry only about passing and “getting a job” because they know that government assistance will be there if they can’t make it. Kudos to the many who are trying to change and improve their state of life—get the word out to those who aren’t.

Karen, I know about the blogging at work. I have a few minutes between classes to buzz through and offer a comment. I’m glad I don’t have a job with a computer in front of me all day!

By Tommy

August 31, 2005 10:52 AM | Link to this

Does anyone take into consideration the fact that Georgia has some pretty crappy teachers? When public school teachers make as little as they do, and there’s such a desparate need, then any loser can get a job teaching kids. I know this- I had teachers in south Georgia when I was growing up who had the intelligence of a rock and obviously didn’t give a f**k about their students. Not all teachers, but way too many. How in the hell do you think this affect students? If the teacher isn’t worth a damn, the ones learning won’t be either. By the way, the fact that an uneducated professional athelete makes 10 million more than a teacher is a sad, sad commentary on the state of our society. Go figure…

By DeeDee

August 31, 2005 10:56 AM | Link to this

Until the education system in Georgia wakes up and realizes that they are no longer teaching the basics, but rather going from one new teaching fad to another from year to year, our students, white or black, will continue to perform poorly. Basics in math, English grammar (knowing how to write) and literature, geography, U.S. history, World history are not being taught to our students. Educators need to quit “experimenting” with our students and get back to the basics.

By Claude

August 31, 2005 11:06 AM | Link to this

When you see,â€? Jennifer” at the heading skip reading it. She is so in the dark, it is a waste of time. roy barnes, what an idiot, he must be her father in law or something. What an imbecile he was.

By Rino

August 31, 2005 11:07 AM | Link to this

Quote from blog entry: <>

Really? Maybe I didn’t get all the fcats, but… Just because 864 is the average, doesn’t mean that half of them are below that level. That would be the case if 864 was the median.

By RF

August 31, 2005 11:19 AM | Link to this

DeeDee you are correct that schools need to focus more on the basics, but please realize that many of the “fads” as you call them are actually good programs. The fact that schools are trying them is an indication that they are trying to reach kids who simply don’t respond to traditional programs. The schools are attempting to find solutions (despite what the scores show) instead of force-feeding the old standards. We do teach the basics, but the public has demanded higher standards, so we must provide. Now we are teaching basic algebraic functions to third graders and trying to reach them over and over. It isn’t that the schools aren’t covering the basics-we’re living in a society that simply doesn’t value education the way it once did.

By Hugo

August 31, 2005 11:21 AM | Link to this

To RF, I agree wholeheartedly. The cure has been worst than the disease.

By Lynne

August 31, 2005 11:22 AM | Link to this

Does anybody actually moderate this blog? It seems that any fool with a computer can (and will) post.

By Mike

August 31, 2005 11:22 AM | Link to this

While it’s true that states should not compare their SAT scores, for a host of reasons, the SAT nevertheless remains the most accurate statistical correlate of success in college. In fact, the only two correlates that are statistically significant are the SAT and a student’s high school grade point average (GPA).

[No university has any reason to ask whether a student is male or female, tall or short, or white or black. None of those attributes correlates with college success, only the SAT and the GPA. Anything else is mathematically meaningless as a predictor of success.]

The NEA cleverly devised the state-by-state comparison strategy years ago to distract U.S. parents from the fact that every year, randomly selected U.S. high school students score two to three grade levels below their European and Asian counterparts in math and science. History teaches that those who score highest in math and science will be the world’s corporate supervisors and leaders 10-20 years from now.

U.S. students — and their parents who dislike the notion of 8-hour school days and year-round school calendars — will soon be working for Indians, Germans, Chinese, Japanese, South Koreans and Pakistanis, all of whom beat us on standardized tests year after year after year.

In the 21st century, we don’t need to compare states. We need to compare nations. And we’re not even in the Top 10 in math and science.

By Nikki

August 31, 2005 11:37 AM | Link to this

I did well on the SATs and got into a good school with scholarships. I feel that I benefited from “straight talk” about the SAT. When it was test time my mom told me that the SAT is total crap. It says nothing about who I am. It does not accurately measure my intelligence. It does not make me any more or less than anyone else. It is flawed, unfair, and racially divisive. However, like many things in this life it is important to do just as well if not better on it than those who it was designed for. She said that I must prepare for it like anything else, it takes practice and focus. So I prepared and I did well. I can not explain how great it felt not having the pressure that “I am a stupid, bad person” if I did not do well. It would only mean that I did not prepare well. I think that too many kids feel intimidated by that test. Too many parents try to make their kids feel like they are so special because they get a high score. This is funny, especially considering the amount of money they will spend to get little Johnny in SAT prep, tutors, private schools, practice tests, and even test answers ahead of time. After all that, they SHOULD get high scores! Then you want to act like it is a matter of who is smarter, which parents more dedicated? Unfortunately some parents have all they can handle by trying to figure out how they will get dinner on the table for that night. It is just a reality. Its great that the house moms can make it to the PTA, other moms are at their 2nd or 3rd job. I am fortunate that I did not have to grow up in that situation, but I don’t understand how people can be so close minded and sheltered. Ultimately your child is your own responsibility. You do the best that you can for them. Do your best to provide top quality education and get them into private school. Here is the scary thought though…you do not have to care about the rest of society and the rest of the little children who are left behind…but one day you “good” kid may grow up and cross paths with a “bad” kid. Private school won’t be of much use at that point. WE SHOULD ALL CARE ABOUT WHAT IS GOING ON IN SOCIETY B/C IT AFFECTS US ALL!

By Mom_Grandma

August 31, 2005 11:46 AM | Link to this

Blacks want to be treated equally, so why divide them into a special group when scoring the SAT’s? I say we all have the potential…it just means taking the ball and running with it. And I don’t mean a football or basketball. It’s all or nothing when it comes to “division”.

By Susan

August 31, 2005 11:52 AM | Link to this

When someone doesn’t like the results of one thing or another, the race card is played. That’s BS! We all have brains…it’s just a matter of USING them. Segregation stopped in the 60’s. It’s time to stop it when it comes to testing and using those God-given brains. When the tests don’t come out well, they are racially devisive. When things don’t go well in life, it’s racism. To tell the truth, I’m tired of hearing it. If you are capable of thinking at all, you are capable of getting a good score on the SAT. Most of it is common sense. What does that tell you?

By To Lynn

August 31, 2005 11:53 AM | Link to this

To “Lynn”

You said any fool with a computer can and will post. YOU did.

By Priscilla

August 31, 2005 11:55 AM | Link to this

Enough with the black & white comparisons! Children are children and all deserve the right to a good education. Let’s get back to basics. Parents need to parent and teachers need to teach and we all need to support our school system and get involved so all are treated equal if we ever want to see the SAT scores incrase.

By S.W.

August 31, 2005 12:00 PM | Link to this

Parents should be an example? My mother was a 10th grade drop-out who had to leave school to help support her family when her father passed away. She was one of the smartest people I knew, and extremely talented. My father had no college, but started as a (yes) secretary with a large firm and worked his way up to Systems Analyst by devouring all the information and education he could at home.

You don’t have to have a college education. You just have to use that gray matter.

By James

August 31, 2005 12:02 PM | Link to this

How is the SAT test racially divisive between whites and blacks? The same thing about having to show a photo ID when voting now.What’s the uproar with that, that poor people and blacks are being singled out when voting now. It’s called equality people, now you have it, you always deserved it and rightfully wanted it and now you have it. Isn’t that what you marched and protested and boycotted for….equality? Is is not such a sweet smelling fruit now that you have it at hand? Hmmm…perhaps all this eqality stuff is not what it seemed. Perhaps we need a bell curve in everything we do today.

By S.W.

August 31, 2005 12:07 PM | Link to this

I hope that teacher in a “middle class school” doesn’t teach English/grammar.

By Lynne

August 31, 2005 12:10 PM | Link to this

James - you sound angry that African-Americans now have “equality.” Maybe the point is that we don’t really have that equality. Didn’t Brown vs. The Board of Education show us that separate but equal is not the case? Studies have been done to suggest that many standardized tests are culturally biased. I, for one, have always done very well on standardized tests. I’m grateful that we’ve gotten a certain level of equality, but, we’ve still got a long way to go.

I think the biggest issue is not race, but, household income. Some of my worse students (academically) are poor, White children who live in a trailer park. They don’t get 3 square meals a day. There fathers are absent or in and out of jail. They receive free and reduced lunch. With all of this going on in their lives - how can you expect them to do well on the SAT?

By Disgruntled

August 31, 2005 12:11 PM | Link to this

Minorities only want equality when it benefits them.

By Jenni

August 31, 2005 12:12 PM | Link to this

I’ve read through roughly half of these comments and am too angry to continue any further. I attended Stone Mountain High School from 1992 to 1996. The teachers that I remember fondly challenged me. They loved their jobs and never changed their standards, although I’m sure that would have made their lives easier.

Dr. Ingram (Social Studies) and Ms. Lamberth (AP Calculus) gave out quite a bit of homework. I remember being required to write a 2,000 word research paper in 10th grade and loathing that assignment. But I completed it and was thankful for it through Freshman English in college. And I remember Ms. Lamberth giving her tests in 2 parts. On the first part, a calculator was not allowed. For the second part, you could use a calculator. The funny thing was that the only part of the calculation that actually used numbers would end up being something as simple as 2 + 2.

We had all sorts of students in these classes—black, white, hispanic, vietnamese, chinese. A Nigerian and an African-American in my Calculus class both made a 1600 on the SAT—a perfect score in those days.

Stone Mountain had all sorts of kids walking through its halls. The only difference I could ever tell was how hard the students wanted to work. Whether you took AP classes or general level classes, the work ethic was what made the difference. And having teachers and parents who reinforce that work ethic makes a difference.

One cannot expect a student to do well who goes home and spends 5 hours watching television, playing video games, riding a scateboard, etc. A student will only do well if homework is completed, books are read, and math problems are worked and re-worked.

Stop blaming all the teachers. Stop blaming all the circumstances life has to offer. Be a parent. Be a member of the community. Get involved. Listen to the teenagers saying they’re having problems in school and help! If you notice kids in your neighborhood who are constantly outside, talk to them. Ask them how school’s going. Empathize a little bit and you’ll be amazed. If the parents can’t be there because they’re working 2-3 jobs to make ends meet, help them see their kids through school. Education is not a personal problem, it’s a community problem. If we don’t all help these kids now, we’ll be paying for them in the future.

By Jeff

August 31, 2005 12:22 PM | Link to this

I think part of problem has to be an increased commitment to education on the part of the black community. Please do not interpret this comment racist. I purely mean it as constructive criticism. I am not Asian but their commitment to education is unparalleled.

By RF

August 31, 2005 12:25 PM | Link to this

Lynne—recent studies and books I’ve read tend to indicate the bias in tests isn’t intentional or cultural. Tests are written in “formal register” or standard gramatically correct English. Currently, fewer and fewer adults try to use this English so kids grow up hearing, talking, and thinking in “casual register”—the English of the streets. Kids across cultures do poorly when raised in environments where they aren’t read to or ever really hear any formal English spoken. The barriers of race can be overcome by simply exposing kids to books and language that helps their brains develop more formal language abilities.

By SWC

August 31, 2005 12:25 PM | Link to this

Many of these comments discuss the importance of “parents”. Here’s the rub and a big reason that black’s underperform whites: About 70% are born into single parent households, with very young mothers - some in their teens. They have more children and are unable to support them. They do not have positive male role models in their homes. They grow up on welfare or in poverty. This is a cultural problem. White’s who have the above characteristics perform as badly as blacks - there are just fewer of them. This is not the fault of President Bush, or Governor Perdue, or even Kathy Cox (who I disagree with on many issues). This is a hangover from the welfare state established by LBJ and “The Great Society”. Unfortunately it takes many decades to correct these situations. Before these welfare programs were established the majority of black children were born into families with a mom and a dad. Government policies affect all of us, and “liberalism” has caused tremendous harm to our society as a whole, but especially to the very people it was supposed to help. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. “Western civilization” has done a lot to establish good societal foundations for thousands of years. Unfortunately the politically correct among us, many who run our schools, have decided because that multi-culturalism, afro-centrism, radical feminism, and other dangerous concepts should be the focus of curricula and anything that “white men” created should be disparaged and destroyed.

By Lynne

August 31, 2005 12:27 PM | Link to this

To Jeff - you are absolutely correct! And, by the way - I am African-American.

By Loiuse

August 31, 2005 12:31 PM | Link to this

This is ridiculous! My ninth grader scored better than the black AND white seniors. He goes to a private school. I cannot for the life of me understand why you parents sit there and condemn school vouchers while your children are so poorly educated in the Georgia Government School System.

By StaciMM

August 31, 2005 12:37 PM | Link to this

I graduated in ‘93 with a 1310 on my SAT from a school where the current average is 100+ points below the state average. I started practicing by taking the PSAT in the 8th - 10th grades, so was familiar with the format before taking the SAT in the 11th. I think many people have problems with test taking-not just with the SAT. Becoming familiar with the test process & format can help greatly.

Last year, I had a son in the 1st grade. His school had the same idea, and sent home ‘practice’ tests starting about 6 weeks before the CRCT tests. His school had between 97-99% of the students score at or above the expected standard. (Based on 178 students in the 1st grade.)

By Anna

August 31, 2005 12:38 PM | Link to this

“Loiuse” can’t even spell her own name! Thank God her kid goes to private school!

By By Miss American Py

August 31, 2005 12:39 PM | Link to this

The comment from the GA teacher rings true, learning starts at home. However, I don’t remember having such an elaborate infrastructure when I was in grade school. Last year my son had a Kindergarten teacher, an assistant teacher, and a paraprofessional to help out with class. I’m not going to count the Room Mom, Reading Mom, Science Dad, etc. that all donated time to the class. I also don’t remember bringing home fund-raising materials the first week of class, or having to bring in room supplies such as tissues and erasers because they weren’t in the school budget. Is it me or is there a fundamental problem with the way education is managed in Georgia? Lots of cooks around the kettle, but not much to stir in the pot.

By James

August 31, 2005 12:46 PM | Link to this

First off Lynne, I am not angry about your equality. It’s your lack of accountability that bothers me. I was poor and white with no male role model in my home, yet that did not prevent me from going to college; no scholarships either….two jobs and student loans. I didn’t whine and moan that no one cares about us poor people in Alabama. I made sure I did whatever was necessary for me to do to get the heck out of the poverty I saw people around me readily accept as a way of life, white people. Nor did I have three good meals a day of food to eat. Something else I didn’t have either….affirmative action helping me along the way. I had to stand on my own two feet, take whatever punches came my way without benefit of racially equalizing the playing field. Why do so many blacks think that white people all lived Leave it to Beaver lives and were afforded everyhting in life, given to them on a silver platter? Do some research before you start typing.

By Veritas

August 31, 2005 12:52 PM | Link to this

Black kids don’t stand a chance from DAY ONE when their parent(s) give them a name that nobody can pronounce let alone spell!

Who the hell would hire Qwarniverous, Shequita or Sherunda??

This is America! If you want to give them an alleged African sounding name
pack up your belongings and move to Mother Africa!

Blacks want equality but want separate identites from everybody else.

By Parent

August 31, 2005 12:54 PM | Link to this

I am always amazed when I here people say that education is not our priority. They spend about $11K per student in the APS. That is about $200k per class. How much do you need? The other local counties spend between $6 and $9k per child. How much do we need to spend? Money is not the issue, it is the lack of desire of the students and family.

It is now time to segregate schools by the abilities of the children. We are reducing all students to the lowest level.

By SnottyNozeBratt

August 31, 2005 12:57 PM | Link to this

Prehaps the teachers and coaches are too busy having sex or trying to have sex with the kids to teach them. huh?

By Jake

August 31, 2005 01:00 PM | Link to this

Karen - Good points on parenting, but pitiful attempt at justifying poor SAT scores with good college rankings. The college rankings include factors like freshman retention rate, faculty resources, affordability, financial resources, etc., that have absolutely nothing to do with the sorry state of education in Georgia public schools. If you actually look at the SAT scores by state you will see that places like NC, MD, NJ, and DC that have similar ethnicity and even higher participation rates, also had higher SAT scores. So logically either parenting and cultural values in Georgia are way behind Washington DC, or there’s something wrong with our public school system.

By Lynne

August 31, 2005 01:04 PM | Link to this

James - no research required. I just made a comment based on the tone of your post. Every African-American did not benefit from any affirmative action! Every White person did not live a Leave it to Beaver lifestyle! My point was that you seemed angry - and apparently you are.

I’m truly sorry that you had a hard life, but, you don’t need to visit that on anyone else!

By James

August 31, 2005 01:14 PM | Link to this

Lynne, first off…drop the African-American crap. I’m American…I’m not German-American, or French-American. I’m American, plain and simple. With the African-Amercian lingo came the god-awful names we see today, the names that a person who cannot pick Africa out on a map decided to name their child… because it sounded African. They sound like you’re giving your child a permamnent low rent job and a bus pass.

By Lynne

August 31, 2005 01:35 PM | Link to this

James - I bet you’re foaming at the mouth right now! You’re so angry that you cannot even spell! What the devil is “permamnent”?

Anyway - I am an African-American; and if it offends you - you have too much time on your hands! Read a book. Get a hobby. Get a life!

By Lisa

August 31, 2005 01:46 PM | Link to this

Lynn- Where were you born? I’ll almost bet it wasn’t Africa. I would guess you are probably more Chicago-American or maybe Maryland-American. How many times have you made the pilgrimage to your “homeland?”

The name “African-American” was dreamed up by Jesse Jackson and a bunch of goofs bought into it.

By AI

August 31, 2005 01:47 PM | Link to this

What was the average of Hispanic students? Students of Asian decent? Native American students? Why were they only averaging the black and white students of Georgia? How many black students took the test in Georgia, how many in Texas, how many in New York? How many white students took the test in Ga, Tx, NY??? If facts are to be given, then provide all facts and not partial. That way people can make their own conclusions about things.

By Dan

August 31, 2005 01:53 PM | Link to this

Parents its your fault for the low SAT or any other low score….start taking responsibility. Kids its your fault for not following adult orders (Mom, Dad, Teacher, Preacher) …start taking responsibility.

Parents you wanted kids so now you have an obligation to them… until they are 18 not 17,16, 15, 14, 13, etc. but 18. If you want your kids to get an education you must make sure they follow the rules and “PAY before they PLAY” “STUDY first before TV or video games or simply going out with their friends”. Parents, children are not your friend they are your responsibility and your responsibility is to be a figure head, leader, mother or father.

Kids don’t need expensive housing, expensive cars, shoes radio’s, clothes, makeup or lots of money, kids only need the basics food, water, leadership, goals,love, god and you.

By Doug

August 31, 2005 02:08 PM | Link to this

Hmmm. Why would an African sounding name doom a child to a permanent low-rent job and a bus pass? Is it because certain white people don’t want to give a person with an African sounding name a good job for which he/she is qualified? I can’t think of any other reason why the sound of a person’s name would affect success. Perhaps the problem doesn’t lie with the parent who attempts to connect with the family’s racial heritage but with the person who can’t see past the name.

And, again, I don’t think more government programs or spending are the answer. Why can’t a person point out obvious socioeconomic inequalities without being accused of advocating socialism? In fact, I was opposed to NCLB because I thought it added too much federal bureacracy and control over public education, which is best handled locally. The parents’ commitment to education is the most important thing. Unfortunately, it is often overlooked by politicians that only promise more testing because it’s easier politically to demand accountability of teachers than to demand accountability from voters.

And while I didn’t want to get into a huge debate about extraneous topics like tax policy in a blog post about SAT scores, I feel I need to respond to those Republicans that whine about Great Society and other social programs. Bush is worse. Out of control federal spending is guaranteeing a steep tax hike in the future. Where’s the money going to now? Investors and large businesses. I think government should stay off our backs and out of our wallets, but if we’re gonna spend like drunken sailors we might as well give the money to those that need it. In a country that claims to value hard work, why do we keep finding new ways to screw the working man? I know, you’ll say we need to give money to investors and businesses to spur the economy. Well, with all due respect, supply-side economics is crap. I favor giving the money to regular people and letting them spend it on goods and services. We know they’ll spend it, instead of saving it or hiding it offshore like the recipients of Bush’s tax cuts, because they have to. If businesses want that money, they can get it by providing goods and services that people want at competitive prices.

SWC, I was very much with you for about the first half of the post. In fact, the single best predictor of low academic achievement may be having a single parent. I’m not sure that all of the things you mentioned caused the rise in single parent homes, but it is certainly possible that some of those things are factors. Even if they are factors, I’m not sure it is all bad. I would imagine that much of the rise in single parent families is in one way or another due to women having the ability to survive without a man in the home (such as increased overall American prosperity allowing needs to be met on one income, government support, greater workplace opportunities for women, etc.). Whereas women were once trapped in marriages that were unfulfilling or even abusive, they now have the resources to at least survive without a second income. Single-parent families are seen more amongst blacks than amongst whites (though whites are catching up). Low incomes, high unemployment, and high incarceration rates among black males make the black male an even less essential part of the family unit than the white male.

Of course a child of a poor family can still be successful, and the child of a wealthy family can still be a failure. But it’s a lot easier to be successful if you have more resources. Sure, I managed to go to one of the best state law schools in the country, but if I had come from a wealthier family I would have ended up at an Ivy League school. No person with my family background could be a screw up for as long as George W. Bush was and still manage to buy a 1600 acre ranch and become president before the age of 60.

Finally, please stop using straw man arguments against me. It’s extremely annoying, unproductive, and only reflects badly upon you.

By Lynne

August 31, 2005 02:09 PM | Link to this

Lisa - since you asked me so nicely, I will tell you where I was born. I was born in Syracuse, New York. My parents were born in Egypt. I have been to Africa 3 times in my life. So, is it acceptable that I consider myself an African-American now? It doesn’t really matter what I call myself, does it? The subject matter is low SAT scores. Stay focused!

By Lynne

August 31, 2005 02:11 PM | Link to this

Dan - excellent comments! I agree whole-heartedly.

By Camilla

August 31, 2005 02:15 PM | Link to this

Must we be reminded why affirmative action was created due to the lack of opportunity that was presented to African-Americans (Negroes at the time) who were prevented from voting, working and living among those who wanted to keep them down. Now I do believe that affirmative action has terribly veered off track. I am African American and willingly use the title because I can’t go anywhere with out being reminded of where my heritage stems from but our culture has put to much emphasis on the quick and easy. I don’t know how many children I have come across who can quote every rap lyric known to man but can’t read a simple book and we wonder why our SAT scores are low. If you can’t speak a sentence properly then how in the HELL can you decipher the questions on the SAT exam. Again it stems from home and education takes time and effort and our children our suffering because we rather go to Lenox and shop instead of taking them to a library or a cultural event to help expand their minds but we all must take responsibilities for our dismal education system here in GA. Every year we are near the bottom and somehow we haven’t figured out how to get to the top. Maybe we need to look at the top states and try to adapt their teaching methods.

By RF

August 31, 2005 02:17 PM | Link to this

We need to realize the folks on this blog are obviously parents who are indeed trying to do the right thing. Now if we could just figure out a way to get the message out to the rest. One idea, quit name-calling and let’s put some energy into making families a popular idea again. Not the June-in pearls-and-heels role model, but just families, whatever the form, being together and devoted to the kids. Live by example and help the deprived understand what they need to do the help themselves, their children, and this country.

By veritas

August 31, 2005 02:23 PM | Link to this

Doug,

I have numerous friends from Ghana and Nigeria. They are amused at the so-called African sounding names, most of which are not African at all. After 10-15 generations in America, its impossible to reconnect Blacks to any African heritage.

Get over it !

By Robert

August 31, 2005 02:25 PM | Link to this

RF, amen!!!! And, we have to realize that when “States are ranked per average SAT scores” this really means nothing. Many reasons have already been stated as to why this is the truth.

I am not saying that there is no room for improvement. Of course, we need to improve our classrooms. We can always improve.

By RF

August 31, 2005 02:31 PM | Link to this

Single-parent families are no more to blame than is culture!! Please don’t start blaming the single parents again. It’s about determination and devotion, not marital status. Yes, two parent families do afford a child opportunities often denied to children from single parent families, but I have seen time and time again as a teacher and single parent that the devotion of the parent(s) is the crucial factor.

By suzanne

August 31, 2005 02:32 PM | Link to this

What do you expect from a state where so many people don’t believe in evolution?

By Patrick

August 31, 2005 02:35 PM | Link to this

How did a blog about Georgia’s low SAT scores become an attack on African Americans?

GET HATE AND PREJUDICE OUT OF YOUR HEART AND THINK OF WAYS FOR THE STATE TO DO BETTER ON THE TEST!

By Cornholio

August 31, 2005 02:37 PM | Link to this

Lynne,

For the record, if you were born in New York state, you are an American. If you were born in Egypt and moved to America, then you would be an Egyptian-American. Since you know where your parents originated (Egypt), you cannot be African-American. African-American is a shallow title of identity accepted by those who have no idea where in Africa their true roots lie.

Instead of dreaming up labels for groups and races of people, Jesse Jackson should be promoting the traditional family unit and self-dependency.

By Doug

August 31, 2005 02:44 PM | Link to this

RF, you act like parental involvement and family structure are completely unrelated. With two parents, one of whom may not work, wouldn’t you expect more parental involvement?

I keep getting the feeling that people don’t understand that the facts don’t have a moral position. Merely observing that single parenthood is a predictor of low academic achievement assigns no blame. Of course, what should I expect from conservatives who won’t let their kids learn about evolution and liberals who simply refuse to grapple with the data in books like The Bell Curve. The truth has no agenda.

By foppong

August 31, 2005 02:56 PM | Link to this

I am a 4th year African American engineering student at Georgia Tech. My parents emigrated from Africa when I was only three. When we first came, I remember having to sleep on the floor in our studio apartment for the first few months. Now my dad is a professor and my mom is a nurse.

My story is similar to many others who have come from disadvantageous backgrounds and succeeded. The problem in my eyes stems from the culture of African Americans and economics. The lack of income, the redundancy of low satisfaction jobs, and their environments foster this discrepancy. Sports and entertainment are looked upon as the keys to success and the easy way out of poor circumstances when in reality they require an extreme amount of preparation and devotion. Many times students put their eggs in one basket and when their realization fails, they revert to the same cyclic lifestyle of before. Every African American wants to do better personally and for their family; it is a matter of choices. Education needs to be taught as the new sport, the new form of entertainment. If you study hard – the world is yours. There is no guarantee in life, but if one were to use statistics as proof – it would be clear that education would get you further in life than sports or entertainment any day.

What I am saying is not new and has been said many times over the years. I think the problem also resides with our black leaders. We need those, like Cosby, who speak the truth. I am tired of Al Sharpton and others partying with Puff Daddy and complaining about irrelevant issues. Maybe it will take a new generation to kick these posers off TV and get someone to speak on the real issues.

By Melissa

August 31, 2005 02:57 PM | Link to this

The SAT gap has always been large between ethnic minorities (especially African Americans) and other students, but I am appalled at some of the half-way racist remarks on this board. Just because a student is African-American doesn’t mean that they “don’t take the time to read” and would rather “listen to bad music and watch trashy videos” than study. I am African American. Most times the achievement gap is not for lack of trying or parents “not doing their job.”

Neither of my parents TOOK the SAT because in their generation, there was no point in an African American going to college. They did what they could — they didn’t allow TV in the house until all homework was done, and I didn’t start watching videos until I was halfway through high school — but ultimately they could never prepare me for the SAT as they wanted to, nor could they afford the ridiculously expensive prep courses I now tutor. The gap in SAT scores doesn’t indicate a lack of trying — the issue is so much wider than that. Many African-American students don’t have the resources to pay for courses, and a lot of them are first-generation college students whose parents wouldn’t know what an SAT question sounds like.

I agree parents have the greatest responsibility for the problems, but don’t go stereotyping and accusing without knowing the whole picture.

By RF

August 31, 2005 02:58 PM | Link to this

Doug—you can quote the books to support a position, but realize there are always exceptions to the rule. Yes, I agree two parents have more resources, but do they all use them? The deciding factor is parental involvement, regardless of the numbers. I’m not disagreeing with you as much as I am TRYING to keep the focus on the effect of positive parenting, regardless of number. Logic aside, I LIVE IT EVERY SINGLE DAY and I have two straight-A kids who outperform many classmates from two-parent families. You’re right also that two-parent families are on the decline. SAT scores started dropping long before the divorce rate went up. The truth has an agenda, but humans are about more than statistics. Exceptions exist you know.

By foppong

August 31, 2005 03:00 PM | Link to this

I am a 4th year African American engineering student at Georgia Tech. My parents emigrated from Africa when I was only three. When we first came, I remember having to sleep on the floor in our studio apartment for the first few months. Now my dad is a professor and my mom is a nurse.

My story is similar to many others who have come from disadvantageous backgrounds and succeeded. The problem in my eyes stems from the culture of African Americans and economics. The lack of income, the redundancy of low satisfaction jobs, and their environments foster this discrepancy. Sports and entertainment are looked upon as the keys to success and the easy way out of poor circumstances when in reality they require an extreme amount of preparation and devotion. Many times students put their eggs in one basket and when their realization fails, they revert to the same cyclic lifestyle of before. Every African American wants to do better personally and for their family; it is a matter of choices. Education needs to be taught as the new sport, the new form of entertainment. If you study hard – the world is yours. There is no guarantee in life, but if one were to use statistics as proof – it would be clear that education would get you further in life than sports or entertainment any day.

What I am saying is not new and has been said many times over the years. I think the problem also resides with our black leaders. We need those, like Cosby, who speak the truth. I am tired of Al Sharpton and others partying with Puff Daddy and complaining about irrelevant issues. Maybe it will take a new generation to kick these posers off TV and get someone to speak on the real issues. (sorry if this posted twice)

By RF

August 31, 2005 03:01 PM | Link to this

Everyone reading?? foppong hit the nail squarely on the head for those arguing culture as a factor in SAT scores.

By Nikki

August 31, 2005 03:06 PM | Link to this

OMG! Can we all take a second to read some of these comments and take a step back. HOW SCARY! Could it be possible that things have not changed quite so much? It is so mind boggling that the people making anonymous attacks are the same people who I might talk to at work, pass in the grocery store, or even chat with in a line. Seemingly nice and tolerant people. We live in such modern times of equality, right? Yet any opportunity of anonymous feedback results in the most old fashioned talk. Can people ever really change? Even scientific research shows that there are NO CELLULAR DIFFERENCES between different races. People are just people. Seriously!

By Hugo

August 31, 2005 03:11 PM | Link to this

There are too many angry and miserable people who seem to want to use this blog to lash out at different groups. This was suppose to be about SAT scores not someone’s personal hangups and bigotry. Stop dealing in stereotypes and actually get out and meet different people and maybe you will get a different perspective and not just repeat specious statements that you have heard from others. Now maybe we see how our students SAT scores are so low we’re all a bit lazy.

By Doug

August 31, 2005 03:11 PM | Link to this

RF, I absolutely know exceptions exist. You wouldn’t be able to tell from reading others’ mischaracterizations of my positions, but I have resisted generalizations more than most people posting comments here. In fact, I think it would be fair to say that my entire goal here has been to prevent generalizations and to get people to recognize the many factors in academic achievement. I initially commented because I thought some were too quick to blame racial discrimination (usually liberals) or black culture (usually conservatives) for underachievement among blacks.

By RF

August 31, 2005 03:21 PM | Link to this

Doug you are absolutely right about that. The mud-slinging over racial factors has definitely clouded the issue. I get a little punchy about single parenting—sorry! I’m use to defending my position a bit too often when the radicals get going! Back to the subject at hand…

To repeat a basic thread of truth here today, it’s all about personal determination based on support from home and emphasis on academic gain and a desire to improve one’s life that always have and always will affect test scores. Get off the racial arguments folks and devote some energy to discussing ways to help those who need guidance in parenting get that guidance soon!!

By Claude

August 31, 2005 03:24 PM | Link to this

This thing has jumped off track way back, AND it sounds like it is only racial, WHAT ARE YOU PEOPLE DOING? I HOPE YOU ARE NOT TEACHING THIS HATE TO YOUR CHILDREN. This has to stop! remove color and pay attention. Either way this has gotten to dumb for me I am out!

By Tommy

August 31, 2005 03:25 PM | Link to this

Maybe if you guys had a fg job, you wouldn’t be spewing out all of this bigoted bulls*t!

By Claude

August 31, 2005 03:27 PM | Link to this

this has gone far enough, I am out. Race is not the issue, but no matter the topic! the angry come out and pull a race card. sad, sad, sad.

By James

August 31, 2005 03:28 PM | Link to this

Lynne, first off ….go back to Africa, or Egypt…or whatever third world contry you’re from. No, I am not foaming at the mouth. I am a proud Amercian, a proud white Amercian and damn proud that of all the disgusting pictures of the low life looters (that under Marshal Law could and should be shot dead for looting)coming out of New Orleans…I have not seen a white looter in the crowd.

By Jake

August 31, 2005 03:29 PM | Link to this

Melissa - What is the “whole story’? The acheivement gap is a fact. What are the causes? People on this blog have suggested everything from inherent race-linked IQ differences (SET), socio-economic (Doug), poor schols, poor teachers, poor administrators, single-parent families, and low parental involvement (Jake). You make one comment about resources, but generally spend more time discrediting other explanations than advancing your own. As to the original question, I’ve changed my mind, it’s a Southern thing. No other reason DC would have higher test scores, they have even more blacks and, presumably, more single parent families. They built better school systems while we were eating our watermelons!

By Elwood

August 31, 2005 03:29 PM | Link to this

Face it people: African-Americans can call themselves whatever they want, because they didn’t come to America by choice; they were forced to come here. I don’t have a problem with the term African-American, whereas I also have no problem calling myself white. My ancestors chose to come here out of their own freewill.

By Yvette

August 31, 2005 03:31 PM | Link to this

Why is it that the black students may score low on the SAT test, however when it come college freshman, white students seem to fail and leave school first. I have known a number of black students not to score well on the SAT however they excell in their college careers.

By Sam

August 31, 2005 03:40 PM | Link to this

Perhaps it’s a cultural issue versus an educational one. In lower-class black culture, it’s widely considered to be a negative trait for one to be interested in reading, studying or bettering ones’ educational level - for fear of being dubbed “white.” Sure, there’s a multitude of whites that score poorly in school but the prevailing cultural stigma against education and assimilation is not there for whites, Mexicans or Asians. Or so it seems to me. I care about black people, but it seems like there is a very low level of expectation in their culture (see: the public defense of OJ, Michael Jackson and R. Kelly).

By RF

August 31, 2005 03:43 PM | Link to this

As has been stated, the racial argument doesn’t hold water. Since so many are trying to force that argument, let the educated move on to better discussions…

By Cornholio

August 31, 2005 03:47 PM | Link to this

Elwood,

Blacks were forced to come here? That was true 200 hundred plus years ago !

After 10-15 generations, how long will it take for Blacks to assimilate into a Western European culture and identity?

If you want to pick and choose a new found African identify, get your sorry Black a* out of this country !!

By SWC

August 31, 2005 03:50 PM | Link to this

Doug - I wasn’t even thinking about you when I made my post! I was responding to all the people who say that parental involvement is key, but miss the fact that there often aren’t parents in the first place.

The fact is that being a single parent is the single biggest predictor to living in poverty. Children growing up in poverty and without a dad are at a huge economic and cultural disadvantage no matter what their skin color. It just so happens that the majority of children born into this situation are black. As a cultural indication, I would wager that the number of Asians born to single parents is infinitesimal and could partly explain why growing up poor doesn’t hurt their education as much as other “groups”. Your arguments trying to justify single parenthood are pretty weak. Being a parent is a responsibility, not a right. I am not talking about people whose marriages failed for whatever reason. I’m talking about teenagers getting pregnant, having numerous children, and then becoming grandparents at the age of 35. Whose fault is that?? By the way, who are the “regular” people you were talking about that you want to shower with largesse? Can you define “regular” for me? Also, your comments about Bush are just factually incorrect. Okay - so he drank too much when he was younger. If that were the criteria then most of the graduates of UGA would be goners. Are you going to hold someone’s past against them forever, despite all the incredibly positive things that they do to turn their life around? His kids have parents. He’s not on the dole. And, just because one comes from an ivy league family is no guarantee that your child will get in an ivy league school. If it was that simple my son would be all set to go to Harvard, and his grades and SAT scores wouldn’t matter. In fact, if my son would have a better chancegetting into an ivy league school if he had an afro-centric or Hispanic surname and was female. Please! Stop with the class-envy.

Also, If you want your children to have ridiculous made up names then go ahead, but it will not help you get hired anywhere but in a black studies program at a left-wing university. This is a fact which the smart blacks on this blog have figured out. You can put a tattoo on your forehead, dye your hair green, and pierce your lips too, but don’t complain if you or your kids don’t get hired and don’t expect me to pay for your tattoo removal. You complain about Bush but you are only willing to take responsibility for your actions, or the actions of others up to a point and then you want to blame it on people who have actually succeeded in life like Bush. Then, the icing on the cake is that while you excuse the behavior of others who are part of the problem and not the solution, you complain about W’s wild past as if it is some unpardonable sin. Get over it - he has.

By Doug

August 31, 2005 04:07 PM | Link to this

Georgia is doing just fine in education. SAT scores are a very poor way to measure educational results. The children in GA are every bit as smart and prepared as those kids in other states when measurements are equal. So, how do you like those apples?

I agree on the Bush issue…..move on with your life. We will have a new President soon enough.

Speaking of grades…..Bush actually made better grades at Yale than did Kerry. Oops. Bush also has not only a degree from Yale but one from Harvard also….Pretty impressive by any standards.

By Doug

August 31, 2005 04:10 PM | Link to this

“Of course a child of a poor family can still be successful, and the child of a wealthy family can still be a failure. But it’s a lot easier to be successful if you have more resources.”

I agree, and public schools provide all the resources necessary…of course a good homelife helps greatly

By bugernoseeatit

August 31, 2005 04:15 PM | Link to this

Cornholio

I like that handle.

Can anyone name one black culture that has a written language or has been successful? Just wondering.

By chad

August 31, 2005 04:23 PM | Link to this

Why is it that when students do something remarkable it’s because of hard work, dedication and self-motivation, but… when they score low on SAT scores its always someone else’s fault. Hum???? Stop blaming society for the fact that your ignorant.

By Newguy

August 31, 2005 04:27 PM | Link to this

It hasn’t been 10-15 generations since Blacks were allowed to vote and go to the same schools as whites! How fast do you expect assimilation? Can hundreds of years of obstacles be overcome in 50 years?

When blacks did have successful businesses and communities, they were destroyed and terrorized by bigots. If you are not even allowed to go to a normal school, of what importance is education? Family culture in most fo these cases just does not emphasize learning because they don’t believe that it will benefit their children at all.

Studies have shown that social mobility is at an all time low. People born poor are likely to remain poor throughout their lives. The majority of poor are blacks (hispanics in some states) so there you go…

You can’t force a work ethic on someone. All you can do is provide the opportunities and people will do what they want.

As for ethnicity and ethnocentrism, many Caucvasians still identify with Ireland, Germany, Scotland, etc. I fail to see why what culture someone identifies themselves with affects you at all. Let them call their kids what they want. Success and failure is an individual effort, much like democracy..

By Doug

August 31, 2005 04:28 PM | Link to this

SWC,

Your post starts off by incorrectly assuming that I believed you were thinking about me and doesn’t get much better from there.

I don’t want to shower anyone with largesse, including big businesses and the super-rich, but if we’re gonna cut taxes let’s actually help people who need it. Can I define regular? I’ll start by saying it doesn’t include the 1.2% of Americans in 2003 who actually paid the estate tax that Bush wants to completely repeal while the budget is in a deficit. It also doesn’t include those who derive a majority of their income from investments or inheritance.

I didn’t say that an Ivy League family makes getting into an Ivy League school automatic. For one thing, legacy admissions are less common today. I don’t know if you are referring here to Bush getting into Yale or my saying I would have gone to an Ivy League school, so I’ll address both. First, Bush. Are you seriously going to tell me that a student with Bush’s 1206 SAT score (200 pts below the Yale average at the time) not named George W. Bush and not coming from Andover would have gotten into Yale? Now, me. I said I would have gotten into an Ivy League law school not because of who my parents were but because I wouldn’t have had to work full-time during college and would have been able to afford the high tuition. During the 2 semesters of college in which I didn’t work, my GPA was 3.9. During the other semesters it was 3.2.

I don’t hold Bush’s failures or wealth against him. But the fact is that he benefitted from circumstances that reduced the consequences of bad decisions and compensated for his merely average ability.

Trust me, I don’t envy people like Bush. I think my experiences built character in ways that Bush will never know.

When did I ever excuse a parent who does not emphasize his or her child’s education? Again, I’m getting really sick of the straw man arguments! You ask me, if a teenager becomes pregnant and ends up a single-parent in poverty who provides little guidance to her child, whose fault is that? IT’S THE PARENT’S FAULT, NOT THE DISADVANTAGED CHILD’S FAULT.

By chad

August 31, 2005 04:28 PM | Link to this

There is nothing so unequal as the equal treatment of unequals.

By blackmomba

August 31, 2005 04:30 PM | Link to this

“OMG! Can we all take a second to read some of these comments and take a step back”

Nikki….I hear you honey.

I will just start by saying I am black…or at least I was this morning when I awoke. Yep (looking at hand), still black.

I am 62 years old so I have seen alot. What I see now is that many blacks are stuck in the past and can not or do not want to move forward. Every possible opportunity is out there for the taking. The problem is as I see it that too many blacks want to complain about what happened 250 years ago. Bill Cosby spoke the truth but few listen and some even want to thump his head. Learn to speak proper English. Quit wearing your pants down around your knees. This is not cool. Do you know what kind of an idiot people think you are?

Get an education…..(It’s “free”) Drop all the made up names and try and fit into the world in which you live and quit trying to blame “whitey”. I lived during the time of oppression. There is virtually no reason a “black” person can not succeed. I do not see anyone blocking the school house doors. You want to see a movie….the guy at the door will take your money just as fast as he will the white mans.

Get over yourself and become an American. There is no such thing as an “African American”. If you were born in this country then you are an American. I do not care where your great great whatever came from.

Be thankful that you were not born in Africa. It stinks and blacks are killing blacks all the time. Face it…..Africa stinks! Deal with it.

By Hannah

August 31, 2005 04:33 PM | Link to this

James - dude, let it go! The more you speak, the more ignorant you sound. You are telling someone to go back to their “contry” - at least learn how to spell it!

This is about the SAT - can you spell that?

By marco

August 31, 2005 04:33 PM | Link to this

As an african American Male w/ a master’s degree, you all have missed quite a bit. a Teacher said the poor don’t value education. That’s completely untrue. many just don’t feel that they can afford it and didn’t start college funds when their children were born so its difficult to convince them that they need to push their children to college. both my grandfathers were sharecroppers but all of their grandchildren are college educated. the issues are a lot bigger than those of you who have not experienced it can understand.

By Hugo

August 31, 2005 04:33 PM | Link to this

To bugernoseeatit, The kingdom of Mali in the 1200’s A.D. and Nubia which was known as Upper Egypt which is now Sudan.

By Patrick

August 31, 2005 04:35 PM | Link to this

Some have argued that Georgia does poorly on the SAT because all of its students take the test. THAT’S NOT TRUE. Georgia is tied for sixth in the nation for SAT participation.

By swc

August 31, 2005 04:37 PM | Link to this

Doug: You said, “Sure, I managed to go to one of the best state law schools in the country, but if I had come from a wealthier family I would have ended up at an Ivy League school. No person with my family background could be a screw up for as long as George W. Bush was and still manage to buy a 1600 acre ranch and become president before the age of 60”.

Are there 2 “Doug”s responding here? Because on the one hand you pull the class envy card, then you say you can’t wait for him to be out of office, and then you point out that Bush actually is darn well educated.

You equivocate about everything - can’t you make up your mind where you stand on anything?

Georgia is not doing “fine”. It is not as bad as its reputation, but I wouldn’t put it in the “fine” category. Do you call not having textbooks “fine”? And SATs, whether you like them or not, are crucial to getting in to a good college.

By brent huss

August 31, 2005 04:45 PM | Link to this

I sat in Gov. Perdue’s office two years ago and told him the SAT issue was how I would judge his manhood. If HE wanted to PUSH for change he could have it. No one else can say that. Another four years , and back to the farm, Sonny, leaner…richer…with your state no better off.

By yesiamworried

August 31, 2005 04:48 PM | Link to this

Marco

I believe that the poor of your grandparent’s generation and even your parent’s generation still valued education. I no longer think that is the case — perhaps it is that the poor quality has turned them off. Once upon a time poor children were in intact two parent families that had solid values but lacked economic resources. More and more, I feel that many poor children are in families that have no values, morals, etc.

By Hugo

August 31, 2005 04:55 PM | Link to this

There is a quote from Sidney Poitier. “My being Black made it harder not impossible”. There are many African American success stories. My parents sent 9 children to college. They were not educated people but they stressed education. Because of that we have been successful. Not succeeding is not about Black or white but nurturing and if that does not exist whether its emotional, financial or moral chances of success are slim. I wish for the day when we as African Americans are no longer defined by our failures but our successes.

By Cornholio

August 31, 2005 04:57 PM | Link to this

Attention Brent Wuss:

Were the SAT scores any better under King Roy Barnes & Zell Miller?

You unaccountable Democrats had complete control over Georgia’s educational syastem for over a hundred years, but you blame Sonny’s three years for a problem that has existed since day one?

By Sly

August 31, 2005 05:01 PM | Link to this

What constitutes success in the black community? I’m an East Cobber and have a grasp on what it means here. The few blacks in my neighborhood have nicer stuff than me (they’re not in the NBA or rappers BTW), and I’ll bet they chose to live here for the same reasons as me. What role model does a poor kid in the city have?

By SWC

August 31, 2005 05:07 PM | Link to this

Doug hours ago YOU SAID: “Stop using the strawman argument against me” SO THAT’S WHERE I GOT THE DISTINCT IMPRESSION THAT YOU THOUGHT I WAS WRITING ABOUT YOU.

What I have written is not a “strawman” argument. Facts are facts. What is the point of saying its not the kids fault, its the parents fault? What does that solve? The fact is that the kid is almost doomed to failure by the parent’s actions.

Re the estate tax - it does only account for 1.2% of Americans - so why not get rid of it. Why should 1.2% be penalized after working their butts off all their life and wanting to leave a legacy for their children just because some greedy people have decided that it belongs to the government and want to re-distribute it to “regular” people whom they deem worthy? You complain about Bush “spending like a drunken sailor” but you have no problem robbing him or anyone else in his income bracket blind when they die.